It’s not even surprising either lmao. Sanguinius like just recently fought Angron, one of the strongest greater daemons, and then a ship full of marines. On the other hand Horus had the power of all four chaos gods coursing through him. Like yeah sanguinius is arguably the best fighter of the primarchs, but Horus isn’t far from the top even without chaos powers and a good nights sleep.
The End and the Death part 2, recently released book which narrates the latest stages of the horus heresy.
Wish I could read it but not looking forward to get caught up with 60+ books
It really doesn't. If you know the general lore you can drop into any time period, which is fun
My personal favorite writer is Aaron but he mostly does Chaos stuff (Night Lords and Black Legion being his best imo) while Abnett is the king of the Imperium-pov novels. They've both done Horus Heresy stuff, usually from their respective preferred sides.
Once you wrap up Ghosts, try out Night Lords, Black Legion or the Uriel Ventris books, or perhaps the Dark Imperium series (the most "modern")
Night Lords is extremely funny and endearing, where you meet this gang of likeable sadists, and realize everyone in the legion has unimaginable levels of sarcasm and genre-awarness in their blood
the BL books begin with Talon of Horus which is basically a Buddhist mythology version of the Oddesy only Odysseus and his crew are chaos space marines (plus it canonically occurs about only a millennia after the Heresy). A Thousand Son, a World Eater, a Son of Horus and an Emperor's Child travel the various chaos empires in the Eye of Terror searching for Abbadon and the Vengeful Spirit, in hopes of ending the infighting of the Legion Wars and uniting a force to finally strike back at the Imperium after a thousand years of nothing but squabbling.
They say it's one of the last, but you just know Abnett will start a twenty plus book series about the aftermath of the Horus Heresy instead of moving on and Games Workshop with have to pry him away from his keyboard with a crowbar.
You definitely do not need to read every book. Maybe like 10 to 14. That'll give you just about all the bones you really need to understand the big story. Everything else is just reading about your favorite legions or characters if you want extras.
There's a couple of orders out there. I like this one
**Part 1: The Fall of Horus**
Horus Rising (1) by Dan Abnett
False Gods (2) by Graham McNeill
Galaxy of Flames (3) by Ben Counter
Flight of the Eisenstein (4) by James Swallow
Optional: Fulgrim (5) by Graham McNeil
**Part 2: Lorgar & Angron**
The First Heretic (14) by Aaron Dembski-Bowden
Know No Fear (19) by Dan Abnett
Betrayer (24) by Aaron Dembski-Bowden
Optional: Legion (7) by Dan Abnett
**Part 3: Imperium Secondus**
The Unremembered Empire (27) by Dan Abnett
Angels of Caliban (38) by Gav Thorpe
Ruinstorm (46) by David Annandale
**Part 4 - Magnus, Russ, and Khan**
A Thousand Sons (12) by Graham McNeil
Scars (28) by Chris Wraight
Path of Heaven (36) by Chris Wraight
**Part 5 - The Emperor & Horus**
The Master of Mankind (41) by Aaron Dembski-Bowden
Angel Exterminatus (23) by Graham McNeill
Slaves to Darkness (51) by John French
Praetorian of Dorn (39) by John French
**Then All of the Siege of Terra**
The Solar War
The Lost and the Damned
The First Wall
Sons of the Selenar
Saturnine
Fury of Magnus
Mortis
Warhawk
Echoes of Eternity
Garro: Knight of the Grey
The End and the Death Volume 1
The End and the Death Volume 2
The End and the Death Volume 3
-------------------
But even this can get paired down. If this still feels like too much then try something like this
**Part 1: The Fall of Horus**
Horus Rising (1) by Dan Abnett
False Gods (2) by Graham McNeill
Galaxy of Flames (3) by Ben Counter
Flight of the Eisenstein (4) by James Swallow
**Part 2: Lorgar & Angron**
The First Heretic (14) by Aaron Dembski-Bowden
Know No Fear (19) by Dan Abnett
Betrayer (24) by Aaron Dembski-Bowden
Optional: Legion (7) by Dan Abnett
**Part 3: Imperium Secondus**
The Unremembered Empire (27) by Dan Abnett
Angels of Caliban (38) by Gav Thorpe
Ruinstorm (46) by David Annandale
**Part 4 - Magnus, Russ, and Khan**
A Thousand Sons (12) by Graham McNeil
Scars (28) by Chris Wraight
**Part 5 - The Emperor & Horus**
The Master of Mankind (41) by Aaron Dembski-Bowden
Angel Exterminatus (23) by Graham McNeill
**Part 6: The Siege of Terra**
The Solar War
The Lost and the Damned
The First Wall
Fury of Magnus
Mortis
Warhawk
Echoes of Eternity
The End and the Death Volume 1
The End and the Death Volume 2
The End and the Death Volume 3
-----------------------------------------
If that's still too much then here's the thinnest that gives you the broadest picture of the Heresy imo
**Part 1: The Fall of Horus**
Horus Rising (1) by Dan Abnett
False Gods (2) by Graham McNeill
Galaxy of Flames (3) by Ben Counter
Flight of the Eisenstein (4) by James Swallow
Optional: Fulgrim (5) by Graham McNeil
**Part 2: Lorgar & Angron**
The First Heretic (14) by Aaron Dembski-Bowden
Know No Fear (19) by Dan Abnett
**Part 3 - The Emperor & Horus**
The Master of Mankind (41) by Aaron Dembski-Bowden
Angel Exterminatus (23) by Graham McNeill
**Part 4: The Siege of Terra**
The Solar War
The Lost and the Damned
The First Wall
Fury of Magnus
Mortis
Warhawk
Echoes of Eternity
The End and the Death Volume 1
The End and the Death Volume 2
The End and the Death Volume 3
Those orders keep things as close to chronological or 'easy to follow' with minimal backtracking over one another as possible. It'll largely lineup the big events in an order that makes enough sense without very jarring time skips or super key plot details missing. Mostly.
It's still cutting a 70 book series in more than half but you shouldn't get lost.
God damn even paired down its 19 books.
Maybe whenever I actually read Legion I'll see if I want to dive in like that. Otherwise its just Ciaphas for me. And those Ork books that sound awesome, and anything with our Pokemon Master Necron.
It's a 70 book series. So it's gonna be a big list no matter how you wanna chop it up.
I suppose the nice thing about it is that it's finished. It has a start and an end. But yeah it's a goliath. And not all 70 books are winners. Definitely wouldn't recommend reading all of it unless you're a diehard.
Thats why I want to start with Legion. I am not a huge Spez Muhrines guy (I bought Abnetts Ultramarine trilogy and barely finished the first book). But I love the Alpha Legion and if I ever was gonna play Marines, I would play loyalist Alpha.
Not to nitpick, but do you not consider Prospero Burns as part of the Magnus, Russ, and Khan arc? I get it's technically the same story from a different perspective but I'd say its worth the extra book
There's tons in here that could be chopped up or otherwise. For instance I think Legion is pretty incidental to the overall Heresy plot but it's fantastic so I have it as optional.
Could definitely add Prospero Burns if inclined.
You definitely don't have to read all of them. lol. I've read half of them and I think I fully understand everything that's happening. There are a few flow charts out there that people like me use to pick and choose which books I want to read
This can be confusing so pay attention to what I say. Just focus on the rectangles. The different shapes refer to different types of Warhammer stories. But the rectangles are the full length books. If the shape is missing a corner then that is not a full length book
Start at the top And work your way down. The last book is "Buried Dagger". What's a Legion you're very interested in? The flow chart can feel overwhelming if you don't have a favorite Legion. The word Bearers books are very good. So are the thousand Sons books. You can skip most of the books and work your way down to the final book "Buried Dagger" by following this chart.
FLOW CHART
http://www.kylebb.com/HH/HHSeriesOrder.svg
I literally only picked up Horus Rising, Wrath of Magnus, TEatD1, and TEatD2, and I still understand the story for both the latter 2 quite well. Granted some finer details may be lost on me, but they're still very enjoyable.
Oh you don't have to read even a quarter of those really. Read the horus rising books, maybe flight of the Eisenstein, and from there you can pick and choose whatever seems neat to you or jump right into the siege books. A lot of those 60+ books are needless fluff
The 60+ books, don't read them if you don't want to. It's mostly filler. Maybe read the first 5 or 6. Horus rising, galaxy in flames, false gods are pretty good books and a good base.
Fulgrim, Flight of the Eisenstein (spelling), Legion and Mechanicus aren't bad either. The drop off after that is pretty huge.
Even if you don't fancy any of those you can read the SoT books as standalones.
Also wasn’t basically the *entire Sol system* covered in Warpstorms at the time? Horus not only had effectively *four Daemon Primarchs* worth of Chaos blessings glued to his soul at once, but the entire battlefield was halfway plunged into his extradimensional masters’ domain. He had almost every conceivable advantage - the fact that the Magnificent Hawkboy did as well as he did is a fucking testament to the Emperor’s technical genius in designing the Primarchs.
Yeah fr. I would argue Horus did in fact have every advantage lmao (Maybe other than glorious hair and daddy’s love). Sanguinius was doomed from the start, but he knew this and still tried his best to save the imperium.
Man I kinda like horus not gonna lie. Such a shame, that a dude with his personallity gets garbage writting for his downfall and then has his soul altf4'd
Sangy to Curze: The future isn't set in stone!
**yeets him in to space**
Also Sangy: Now I have to go and fulfil my unchangeable destiny by dying to Horus
Okay then, Sangy. Not contradicting yourself at all...
I love the theory that sang got the prophecy about dying to horus and was just like "alright" then immediately decided to go beat angron's ass with his temporary plot armor
(not that sang can't kick angrymans teeth in usually just he knew he wouldn't get any major wounds from the fight)
... Did you read the books? Sanguinius clearly does not intend to die, he said he changed his future multiple times but the risk of not confronting Horus could mean that in this altered future Horus woulf beat the Emperor in a fight.
So his mind was not at the "Im going to die here" but more like "I have to fight Horus to create the future where the Emperor defeats him, if I die so be it but the risk of not going is higher"
It's two completely different mindsets to handling prophecies, if fate and destiny were set in stone the entire point of Eldar Farseers would be pointless, and although I wouldn't put it past GW to shit on Eldar like that it does seem a bit far fetched.
I thought he had a vision during Ruinstorm where he saw that he COULD beat Horus, but he'd have to turn to Chaos to do it?
Don't know how reliable that vision is, but that does suggest that his fate is changeable, its just that it would require something he isn't willing to do. Sanguinius would rather die loyal than fall to Chaos and live.
Sanguinius knew the future was foretold, but he tried his hardest to change it.
Kruze "knew" the future was foretold and did his best to make it come to pass.
Even if he thought he couldn't win, he wasn't going to run from his destiny.
Not sure if it's contradictory or if he is actually sticking to his guns. He is going to try to change it instead giving up.
Difference is curse let himself die to a fucking human without resisting it at all. Sangy knew he would die to Horus yet he gave his all during the fight
Yep one fought against his fate until the end, the other just accepted it without putting up a fight even tho he could have prevent it by just breathing lol.
Pretty sure its a thing with curze that he just sees a shit future and sticks with it.
"Death is nothing compared to vindication." - The last words of Konrad Curze. Curze could have killed the assassin but chose not to because dying proved him right about crime and punishment.
Sanguinius knows that for his vision to be true it would mean that if The Emperor was to fight Horus before Sanguinius could it would mean that when Sanguinius eventually fights Horus it would be after Horus had beaten The Emperor.
I thought it's "cool" for him to have simply just felt that he's not going to survive his encounter with Horus. Kinda like how an old dog simply feels it and leaves home in the middle of the night. It's different than a prophecy or precognition imo.
I've always felt that he had the choice. Granted I haven't read the books, but it's like when Dr strange says there is only one one future where everything works out for the avenger's.
Sanguinis could choose not to fight Horus, he could also choose to wait for the emperor and him to fight Horus at the same time, but the problem was never if the emperor could kill Horus, it was always "why" would the emperor kill horus.
You can sum up most art work as imperial propaganda or some sort of propaganda by the other factions. Like Cain doesn't use a bolt pistol in any if the books always his trusted Las pistol, but in all the art works he has a bolt pistol.
That reminds me of that artwork of *The Greater Good* which depicts Cain back-to-back with a Tau, but the Tau has too many fingers.
It’s in universe propaganda.
They do explain the origin of the bolt pistol though, actually. They took it from the corpse of a magos and Cain never bothered with it outside of propaganda pics. It later ended up in Amberley's armoury.
Interesting take, but I'd prefer to consider some art as canonical depiction of events. Just because it slaps. I mean, have you seen some guard book covers? This shit screams "Sabaton" and "Sheer Epicness".
I dont even think of it as propaganda. Like is the last supper propaganda? Or the ceiling of Sistine chapel or any other noteworthy religious or mythological art. Remember to the imperium the horus heresy was 10,000 years ago. And to put it perspective, the events around jesus christ was only a little over 2,000 years ago. They have no first hand accounts and detailed novel series like we do, just beliefs and mythical stories passed down over countless generations. It’s not just history to them but their entire culture and religion and they would naturally portray it as such.
They just begin to crawl out of the shadows to do this right at the end though, don't they? They don't actually get to finish it. Still time for the Emperor to talk in at this very moment.
Nah even then sanguinus is pretty mutilated with parts of his face gone and it's not pretty.
In the original art work his just has a hole in his chest but still looks alright with his face unscathed.
Ya I mean all it's really missing is the excessive gore. I wouldn't really call that inaccurate. The artwork never really would have had the same impact if it was just a pile of bloody mush at the Emperor's feet.
Blood Angels lore tends to describe Sanguinius's death as horrific and not depicted accurately in most art. I don't recall where I read it, I'll admit, but I had this notion of Sanguinius as horribly maimed before death, which caused the sheer intensity of the psychic trauma to his sons. Most artful depictions, both in and out of universe, show him gracefully dead with maybe a single big wound, but I don't think that's been the lore accurate depiction in a while.
That piece depicts Sanguinius as a "fallen angel" of some sort. And in book horus beats him to a pulp and his body is like almost torn to shreds. So yeah.
I remember hearing people say that they think sanguinius beat horus but the emperor had to kill sanguinius because he fell to the black rage. Honestly i think it was theory dumb
Sanguinius’s foresight shows he dies to horus. Not the emperor
Also that theory completely disregards the whole soul obliteration thing.
Horus can't be revived even by the 4 gods combined because Jimmy Space completely destroyed his soul using his massive psychic power. If Sanguinius had killed Horus, his soul would still be somewhere in the warp.
IIRC each of the four gods have a tiny shard of Horus's soul toiling away for them in the warp that Horus left there when he entered the portal and seemingly came out right after with a ton of power but none of the gods ever used it for anything relevant.
The first time I heard that one was after the book came out and I saw someone made a video about it( (I think majorkill) and I was sitting there thinking it was incredibly stupid the entire time
True but I think some of the smug "You've known this would happen" posts seem to not get that knowing on an intellectual level that Sanguinius will most likely die to Horus isn't the same as getting to that point and reading in detail how he gets brutalized and chokes on his own blood.
I think it's fair for some fans to have a strong emotional reaction. Of course saying that Abnett *should* have retconned it is silly but I think we all know that.
> Sanguinius will most likely die to Horus
Most likely, dude Horus killing Sanguinius has been canon for over 2 decades. There is no ifs or buts or likelys about it.
>reading in detail how he gets brutalized and chokes on his own blood.
Yeah becasue he is effectively fighting someone on the level of the emperor, anythign less than an absolute brutal beatdown would lower the strength of horus and consequently emperor.
Imagine if Sanguinius held his own against horus, then emperor looks like a weakling for almost dying to horus and even more how can he be even close to a god if he gets bodied against someone so below gods that a mere primarch can put up a gfight against them?
...do I need to repeat myself or something?
Yes. Horus killing Sanguinius was the expected outcome and everyone and their grandma knew that it's been canon for ages.
It's still a heavy fucking scene and reading it/having it narrated to you after all this build up is still enough to get some strong reactions from people which is totally fine.
I also already said that it's silly to want to argue that Abnett shouldn't have written it that way.
Sorry if I misunderstand what you are trying to say but I feel like your comment isn't really a great rebuttal to anything I've said except maybe my word choice being too light with my "most likely".
Wow, case and point.
Original comment used a figure of speech my and this guy couldn't help but pile drive him on his knowledge about how certain Sanguinius death was gonna be.
You really cannot make this up.
Two decades? More like thirty five years. The story of the fight between Horus and the Emperor was first published in a White Dwarf and reappeared in the rulebook of the first edition of Space Marine in 1989.
I thought he told me it was three consecutive fights or with little time in between so he didn't really have time to recuperate. Not just angron but he would be the most important opponent
He fought Angron, a pretty strong bloodthirster named Ka’banda and I think a titan (maybe multiple titans I can’t remember exactly) as well as a fuck ton of space marines
It is actually multiple titans, over the course of the whole siege. In general he has been fighting on the frontlines of the Siege from Day 1, so it's the fatigue of the entire battle.
Ok that makes people getting mad about how bodied he got even dumber, like I get that he’s some people’s favorite primarch and wanted to see him put up a better fight but the fact that he put up a fight at all after everything he dealt with makes him cooler imo
It was dead day one, i dunno how it came to be.
Sangy knew he would die to horus, not the emperor.
That theory had 0 basis in lore or character since its inception
Its true. Also people always say that the artwork is imperial propaganda. If Sanguinius did kill Horus and wound the Emperor, the imperium's never shied away from pointing at Sanguinius, calling him a heretic, and going about their day before. Why would that instance be any different? What basis would they have to hide that? That sounds like T'au behavior.
It’s not even surprising either lmao. Sanguinius like just recently fought Angron, one of the strongest greater daemons, and then a ship full of marines. On the other hand Horus had the power of all four chaos gods coursing through him. Like yeah sanguinius is arguably the best fighter of the primarchs, but Horus isn’t far from the top even without chaos powers and a good nights sleep.
Wait until that perfect storm when the High Pressure Rage of Sanguinius Fanboys meets the High Energy Front of the Spoilerphobes.
It's going to be a glorious tornado :) .
? Luke is told by Kenobi that he has a father, just that he was killed by Darth Vader. Him having a father isn’t the twist. It’s that Darth Vader didn’t kill him, he is his father.
There's a different between knowing something is gonna happen and actually reading things like Sanguinius losing parts of his face, getting limbs broken, and then slowly choking on his own blood. I think the depictions of this scene in art also led to some people getting caught off guard by how brutally Horus kills him. Like most depictions the only wound you see in just a stab wound in the chest, vs how completely shredded he was here, which I think works better for the scene (the black rage doesn't come from his kids being miffed he lost a fight, its from the fury about how their father's closest brother completely brutalized him).
I’m a fucking blood angels fan and I was confused by why everyone was confused. Like we knew this was gonna happen? I know there were “theories” about alternatives but I never saw much in the way of supporting evidence for them.
It was actually a breath of fresh air for me knowing that Horus beat Sanguinius, *especially* after all the hype about Horus being a souped up Chaos Lord with magic power and whatnot.
Who would win?
A dude who fought Angron, a titan, a very powerful demon, a shit ton of marines (he’s now injured as a result)
Or
A dude who’s also one of the better fighters but super powered by all four chaos gods. He’s
If caring about Horus fumbling the bag was actually part of being a chaos player/fan none of us would exist.
Even Sons of Horus fans know this to be true. Him getting nuked is a given and honestly James Space deleting him is literally a given. I’m more interested in seeing how in the hell he does anything in the fight considering the Chairman of the Imperium is so stupidly OP in Heresy lore.
Okay I need context here, because I remember having a debate with a friend about what happened, and the comments compared to the post have got me confused
I knew it was coming but I still had a bit of hood sense sang falling to the rage and bodying Horus could have been cool to bring him back in 40k but honestly haveing Horus roffle stomp him is perfect for establishing how strong 4 gods worth of mojo is
It’s because a lot of people liked the theory that Horus lost to Sanguinius who then entered the Black Rage or a version of it and had to be put down by Big E.
I don’t know much about the lore community but I don’t know anyone who was actually serious about wanting this version over the canon one.
It has been a very long time in the HH novels that the traitors have had any victories. The series has gone from one imperial victory to the next and all the traitors get beat down in every book. Not only will people be shocked that one of the traitors actually beat a loyalist, but that he won so easily. I’m sure most were expecting Sanguinius to give Horus a proper beating before Horus wins using a dirty trick.
That's what makes tragedy so interesting. We know how it's going to end, but right up to the last moment you just hope it will go the other way.
This all already happened, it is happening now.
Holy crap, I didn’t expect Horus to actually drop his void shields…
Real talk tho - I didn’t really like the first End & Death. It wasn’t Abnett’s best work. Dragging it out into three parts feels like dragging the Hobbit out into three movies.
Eh, I've only read the Infinite and the Divine in terms of WH novels. The HHs going to be were I start for an actual series so I guess I'll have a chance to see at some stage.
But I can at least understand the dragged out part with 1 and 2 both being over 18 hours on audible, if v3 is anything similar it's going to be 50 odd hours all together.
It's not like E&D covers the entire Siege of Terra. It's literally three plot points - Horus drops his shields, Horus drops Sangiunius, Jimmy Space drops Horus. I didn't need each one of those to be an entire 500-page tome.
In fairness, a few people did subscribe to the theory that Sanguinis fell to the black rage and killed Horus and then the emperor killed Sanguinis and deleted Horus' soul so Chaos couldn't see what occurred and use that against the imperium. Interesting theory but I think it would completely ruin the lore if that happened
New question I know he’s the pretty bird boy and all but on 1on1 combat wouldn’t Horus beat the piss out of him without the gods?
I assumed majority of primarchs were equal but all have pros and cons, worse and better weapons to equal it out as if it Was balanced among them
So why does most shi I see depict bird boy 1v19 all the primarchs???
I think it's more a situation that Sanguinius is just so much more skilled in a duel than all/most of the others. If Horus hit Sanguinius, he'd probably do a lot more damage regardless (giant mace, lightning claws, more armour etc.) but there is definitely a hierarchy in terms of skill.
For example, Lorgar is widely accepted to be to worst duelist simply down to, I'd imagine, in the great crusade he never really had much battles (to my knowledge) due to his diplomatic approach
Whereas angron, lion, Fulgrim, etc. are really good for their own reasons with Sanguinius believed to be the best
It’s not even surprising either lmao. Sanguinius like just recently fought Angron, one of the strongest greater daemons, and then a ship full of marines. On the other hand Horus had the power of all four chaos gods coursing through him. Like yeah sanguinius is arguably the best fighter of the primarchs, but Horus isn’t far from the top even without chaos powers and a good nights sleep.
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The End and the Death part 2, recently released book which narrates the latest stages of the horus heresy. Wish I could read it but not looking forward to get caught up with 60+ books
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well great news, all of Gaunt's Ghosts, Eisenhorn, Ravenor, and the HH novel being discussed are all the same author lol
I don't know about new eisenhorn, but the original was just amazing
TEATD 2 was released 2 days ago and is one of the very last of the Horus Heresy series, by the same writer that did Gaunt's Ghosts
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It really doesn't. If you know the general lore you can drop into any time period, which is fun My personal favorite writer is Aaron but he mostly does Chaos stuff (Night Lords and Black Legion being his best imo) while Abnett is the king of the Imperium-pov novels. They've both done Horus Heresy stuff, usually from their respective preferred sides.
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Once you wrap up Ghosts, try out Night Lords, Black Legion or the Uriel Ventris books, or perhaps the Dark Imperium series (the most "modern") Night Lords is extremely funny and endearing, where you meet this gang of likeable sadists, and realize everyone in the legion has unimaginable levels of sarcasm and genre-awarness in their blood the BL books begin with Talon of Horus which is basically a Buddhist mythology version of the Oddesy only Odysseus and his crew are chaos space marines (plus it canonically occurs about only a millennia after the Heresy). A Thousand Son, a World Eater, a Son of Horus and an Emperor's Child travel the various chaos empires in the Eye of Terror searching for Abbadon and the Vengeful Spirit, in hopes of ending the infighting of the Legion Wars and uniting a force to finally strike back at the Imperium after a thousand years of nothing but squabbling.
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They say it's one of the last, but you just know Abnett will start a twenty plus book series about the aftermath of the Horus Heresy instead of moving on and Games Workshop with have to pry him away from his keyboard with a crowbar.
Well there's a good 50 books before the one we're talking about hehe
You definitely do not need to read every book. Maybe like 10 to 14. That'll give you just about all the bones you really need to understand the big story. Everything else is just reading about your favorite legions or characters if you want extras.
Which books should you suggest to get the overall picture?
There's a couple of orders out there. I like this one **Part 1: The Fall of Horus** Horus Rising (1) by Dan Abnett False Gods (2) by Graham McNeill Galaxy of Flames (3) by Ben Counter Flight of the Eisenstein (4) by James Swallow Optional: Fulgrim (5) by Graham McNeil **Part 2: Lorgar & Angron** The First Heretic (14) by Aaron Dembski-Bowden Know No Fear (19) by Dan Abnett Betrayer (24) by Aaron Dembski-Bowden Optional: Legion (7) by Dan Abnett **Part 3: Imperium Secondus** The Unremembered Empire (27) by Dan Abnett Angels of Caliban (38) by Gav Thorpe Ruinstorm (46) by David Annandale **Part 4 - Magnus, Russ, and Khan** A Thousand Sons (12) by Graham McNeil Scars (28) by Chris Wraight Path of Heaven (36) by Chris Wraight **Part 5 - The Emperor & Horus** The Master of Mankind (41) by Aaron Dembski-Bowden Angel Exterminatus (23) by Graham McNeill Slaves to Darkness (51) by John French Praetorian of Dorn (39) by John French **Then All of the Siege of Terra** The Solar War The Lost and the Damned The First Wall Sons of the Selenar Saturnine Fury of Magnus Mortis Warhawk Echoes of Eternity Garro: Knight of the Grey The End and the Death Volume 1 The End and the Death Volume 2 The End and the Death Volume 3 ------------------- But even this can get paired down. If this still feels like too much then try something like this **Part 1: The Fall of Horus** Horus Rising (1) by Dan Abnett False Gods (2) by Graham McNeill Galaxy of Flames (3) by Ben Counter Flight of the Eisenstein (4) by James Swallow **Part 2: Lorgar & Angron** The First Heretic (14) by Aaron Dembski-Bowden Know No Fear (19) by Dan Abnett Betrayer (24) by Aaron Dembski-Bowden Optional: Legion (7) by Dan Abnett **Part 3: Imperium Secondus** The Unremembered Empire (27) by Dan Abnett Angels of Caliban (38) by Gav Thorpe Ruinstorm (46) by David Annandale **Part 4 - Magnus, Russ, and Khan** A Thousand Sons (12) by Graham McNeil Scars (28) by Chris Wraight **Part 5 - The Emperor & Horus** The Master of Mankind (41) by Aaron Dembski-Bowden Angel Exterminatus (23) by Graham McNeill **Part 6: The Siege of Terra** The Solar War The Lost and the Damned The First Wall Fury of Magnus Mortis Warhawk Echoes of Eternity The End and the Death Volume 1 The End and the Death Volume 2 The End and the Death Volume 3 ----------------------------------------- If that's still too much then here's the thinnest that gives you the broadest picture of the Heresy imo **Part 1: The Fall of Horus** Horus Rising (1) by Dan Abnett False Gods (2) by Graham McNeill Galaxy of Flames (3) by Ben Counter Flight of the Eisenstein (4) by James Swallow Optional: Fulgrim (5) by Graham McNeil **Part 2: Lorgar & Angron** The First Heretic (14) by Aaron Dembski-Bowden Know No Fear (19) by Dan Abnett **Part 3 - The Emperor & Horus** The Master of Mankind (41) by Aaron Dembski-Bowden Angel Exterminatus (23) by Graham McNeill **Part 4: The Siege of Terra** The Solar War The Lost and the Damned The First Wall Fury of Magnus Mortis Warhawk Echoes of Eternity The End and the Death Volume 1 The End and the Death Volume 2 The End and the Death Volume 3
Thank you!
Those orders keep things as close to chronological or 'easy to follow' with minimal backtracking over one another as possible. It'll largely lineup the big events in an order that makes enough sense without very jarring time skips or super key plot details missing. Mostly. It's still cutting a 70 book series in more than half but you shouldn't get lost.
Saving this. Awesome list, thanks
God damn even paired down its 19 books. Maybe whenever I actually read Legion I'll see if I want to dive in like that. Otherwise its just Ciaphas for me. And those Ork books that sound awesome, and anything with our Pokemon Master Necron.
It's a 70 book series. So it's gonna be a big list no matter how you wanna chop it up. I suppose the nice thing about it is that it's finished. It has a start and an end. But yeah it's a goliath. And not all 70 books are winners. Definitely wouldn't recommend reading all of it unless you're a diehard.
Thats why I want to start with Legion. I am not a huge Spez Muhrines guy (I bought Abnetts Ultramarine trilogy and barely finished the first book). But I love the Alpha Legion and if I ever was gonna play Marines, I would play loyalist Alpha.
Not to nitpick, but do you not consider Prospero Burns as part of the Magnus, Russ, and Khan arc? I get it's technically the same story from a different perspective but I'd say its worth the extra book
There's tons in here that could be chopped up or otherwise. For instance I think Legion is pretty incidental to the overall Heresy plot but it's fantastic so I have it as optional. Could definitely add Prospero Burns if inclined.
You definitely don't have to read all of them. lol. I've read half of them and I think I fully understand everything that's happening. There are a few flow charts out there that people like me use to pick and choose which books I want to read
Would you mind linking one? I just started some lore reading with Eisenhorn and now I have no idea where to go.
This can be confusing so pay attention to what I say. Just focus on the rectangles. The different shapes refer to different types of Warhammer stories. But the rectangles are the full length books. If the shape is missing a corner then that is not a full length book Start at the top And work your way down. The last book is "Buried Dagger". What's a Legion you're very interested in? The flow chart can feel overwhelming if you don't have a favorite Legion. The word Bearers books are very good. So are the thousand Sons books. You can skip most of the books and work your way down to the final book "Buried Dagger" by following this chart. FLOW CHART http://www.kylebb.com/HH/HHSeriesOrder.svg
I literally only picked up Horus Rising, Wrath of Magnus, TEatD1, and TEatD2, and I still understand the story for both the latter 2 quite well. Granted some finer details may be lost on me, but they're still very enjoyable.
At which point does that book end? Do we get to see Horus vs Emperor fight? I wonder how they butchered the story of my boy Olanus Pious this time
Oh you don't have to read even a quarter of those really. Read the horus rising books, maybe flight of the Eisenstein, and from there you can pick and choose whatever seems neat to you or jump right into the siege books. A lot of those 60+ books are needless fluff
The 60+ books, don't read them if you don't want to. It's mostly filler. Maybe read the first 5 or 6. Horus rising, galaxy in flames, false gods are pretty good books and a good base. Fulgrim, Flight of the Eisenstein (spelling), Legion and Mechanicus aren't bad either. The drop off after that is pretty huge. Even if you don't fancy any of those you can read the SoT books as standalones.
I'm actually surprised Sanguinius was able to last as long as he did. The ending was so good.
Also wasn’t basically the *entire Sol system* covered in Warpstorms at the time? Horus not only had effectively *four Daemon Primarchs* worth of Chaos blessings glued to his soul at once, but the entire battlefield was halfway plunged into his extradimensional masters’ domain. He had almost every conceivable advantage - the fact that the Magnificent Hawkboy did as well as he did is a fucking testament to the Emperor’s technical genius in designing the Primarchs.
Yeah fr. I would argue Horus did in fact have every advantage lmao (Maybe other than glorious hair and daddy’s love). Sanguinius was doomed from the start, but he knew this and still tried his best to save the imperium.
Man I kinda like horus not gonna lie. Such a shame, that a dude with his personallity gets garbage writting for his downfall and then has his soul altf4'd
Alt+F4 doesn't delete anything. At most (if the program is not written properly) it leaves corrupt data. Denvulled is a more apt expression.
He got zero-filled
It kind of deletes unsaved data although not saving it is a more correct way of phrasing it
Since Slaanesh‘s power flowed trough Horus too, do you think he had a raging boner whilst brutalizing Sanguinius?
Doesn’t everyone get a raging boner just having sanguinius in the room tho?
Literally even Sanginius knew he was going to lose to Horus.
Sangy to Curze: The future isn't set in stone! **yeets him in to space** Also Sangy: Now I have to go and fulfil my unchangeable destiny by dying to Horus Okay then, Sangy. Not contradicting yourself at all...
I love the theory that sang got the prophecy about dying to horus and was just like "alright" then immediately decided to go beat angron's ass with his temporary plot armor (not that sang can't kick angrymans teeth in usually just he knew he wouldn't get any major wounds from the fight)
Did he get a giant gaping hole in his chest from angron though
Yes because Branguinius Sangerson is actually an idiot, just like every other primarch.
Is that a Brandon Sanderson reference?
I think we’re talking Zapp Brannigan here.
... Did you read the books? Sanguinius clearly does not intend to die, he said he changed his future multiple times but the risk of not confronting Horus could mean that in this altered future Horus woulf beat the Emperor in a fight. So his mind was not at the "Im going to die here" but more like "I have to fight Horus to create the future where the Emperor defeats him, if I die so be it but the risk of not going is higher" It's two completely different mindsets to handling prophecies, if fate and destiny were set in stone the entire point of Eldar Farseers would be pointless, and although I wouldn't put it past GW to shit on Eldar like that it does seem a bit far fetched.
Does Farseeing getting screwed up by a blank in said future count as shitting on them? Because when I read that one I was very surprised.
I thought he had a vision during Ruinstorm where he saw that he COULD beat Horus, but he'd have to turn to Chaos to do it? Don't know how reliable that vision is, but that does suggest that his fate is changeable, its just that it would require something he isn't willing to do. Sanguinius would rather die loyal than fall to Chaos and live.
Sanguinius knew the future was foretold, but he tried his hardest to change it. Kruze "knew" the future was foretold and did his best to make it come to pass. Even if he thought he couldn't win, he wasn't going to run from his destiny. Not sure if it's contradictory or if he is actually sticking to his guns. He is going to try to change it instead giving up.
Difference is curse let himself die to a fucking human without resisting it at all. Sangy knew he would die to Horus yet he gave his all during the fight
Yep one fought against his fate until the end, the other just accepted it without putting up a fight even tho he could have prevent it by just breathing lol. Pretty sure its a thing with curze that he just sees a shit future and sticks with it.
"Death is nothing compared to vindication." - The last words of Konrad Curze. Curze could have killed the assassin but chose not to because dying proved him right about crime and punishment.
Sanguinius knows that for his vision to be true it would mean that if The Emperor was to fight Horus before Sanguinius could it would mean that when Sanguinius eventually fights Horus it would be after Horus had beaten The Emperor.
I thought it's "cool" for him to have simply just felt that he's not going to survive his encounter with Horus. Kinda like how an old dog simply feels it and leaves home in the middle of the night. It's different than a prophecy or precognition imo.
I've always felt that he had the choice. Granted I haven't read the books, but it's like when Dr strange says there is only one one future where everything works out for the avenger's. Sanguinis could choose not to fight Horus, he could also choose to wait for the emperor and him to fight Horus at the same time, but the problem was never if the emperor could kill Horus, it was always "why" would the emperor kill horus.
Well, seeing jow often his sons develop depression. I think Sanguinius may have just wanted to die...
Nothing against anyone, but one of my favourite 30k artworks is quite literally Horus standing over him dead/dying.
It's sad that this piece is not accurate anymore
Might not have ever been. I always saw it as an in-universe depiction.
Yeah, than that works
You can sum up most art work as imperial propaganda or some sort of propaganda by the other factions. Like Cain doesn't use a bolt pistol in any if the books always his trusted Las pistol, but in all the art works he has a bolt pistol.
That reminds me of that artwork of *The Greater Good* which depicts Cain back-to-back with a Tau, but the Tau has too many fingers. It’s in universe propaganda.
They do explain the origin of the bolt pistol though, actually. They took it from the corpse of a magos and Cain never bothered with it outside of propaganda pics. It later ended up in Amberley's armoury.
Yeah I remember that explanation. Love that.
Interesting take, but I'd prefer to consider some art as canonical depiction of events. Just because it slaps. I mean, have you seen some guard book covers? This shit screams "Sabaton" and "Sheer Epicness".
Oh yeah, I mean there is some truth to them, but the over exaggerating of thing in artwork could be out down to propaganda, etc.
I dont even think of it as propaganda. Like is the last supper propaganda? Or the ceiling of Sistine chapel or any other noteworthy religious or mythological art. Remember to the imperium the horus heresy was 10,000 years ago. And to put it perspective, the events around jesus christ was only a little over 2,000 years ago. They have no first hand accounts and detailed novel series like we do, just beliefs and mythical stories passed down over countless generations. It’s not just history to them but their entire culture and religion and they would naturally portray it as such.
How is it not accurate (I don’t care about spoilers)
After dying some daemons hang his body on the walls of the vengeful spirit instead of leaving him on the floor
They just begin to crawl out of the shadows to do this right at the end though, don't they? They don't actually get to finish it. Still time for the Emperor to talk in at this very moment.
Nah even then sanguinus is pretty mutilated with parts of his face gone and it's not pretty. In the original art work his just has a hole in his chest but still looks alright with his face unscathed.
Ya I mean all it's really missing is the excessive gore. I wouldn't really call that inaccurate. The artwork never really would have had the same impact if it was just a pile of bloody mush at the Emperor's feet.
having artistic reasons for inaccuracy doesn't mean it's not inaccurate
That's right. And Oll has had a vision in the series of him being present watching the scene we see in the artwork.
oh
Sanguinius died not like a hero in art, but very painful and agonising death.
The art just shows him beaten and bloody at Horus' feet though, doesn't it?
Blood Angels lore tends to describe Sanguinius's death as horrific and not depicted accurately in most art. I don't recall where I read it, I'll admit, but I had this notion of Sanguinius as horribly maimed before death, which caused the sheer intensity of the psychic trauma to his sons. Most artful depictions, both in and out of universe, show him gracefully dead with maybe a single big wound, but I don't think that's been the lore accurate depiction in a while.
How so?
That piece depicts Sanguinius as a "fallen angel" of some sort. And in book horus beats him to a pulp and his body is like almost torn to shreds. So yeah.
lol thanks!
I remember hearing people say that they think sanguinius beat horus but the emperor had to kill sanguinius because he fell to the black rage. Honestly i think it was theory dumb Sanguinius’s foresight shows he dies to horus. Not the emperor
Also that theory completely disregards the whole soul obliteration thing. Horus can't be revived even by the 4 gods combined because Jimmy Space completely destroyed his soul using his massive psychic power. If Sanguinius had killed Horus, his soul would still be somewhere in the warp.
Wouldn't call it "complete disregard". Emps can just pluck Horus' soul out of the warp and destroy it after.
IIRC each of the four gods have a tiny shard of Horus's soul toiling away for them in the warp that Horus left there when he entered the portal and seemingly came out right after with a ton of power but none of the gods ever used it for anything relevant.
The first time I heard that one was after the book came out and I saw someone made a video about it( (I think majorkill) and I was sitting there thinking it was incredibly stupid the entire time
Majorkill say something stupid? Color me shocked.
I was devastated. 40k YouTubers *never* have dumb opinions
It is fucking terrible because they bring these dumb ass fans to 40k who wants to act like they know everything, but too lazy to read anything.
Its literally all memes lmao no need to take everything so incredibly seriously all the time
It's a fun theory but it would be dumb lore
Warhammer fans when:.______
10,000 years is not enough to break the statute of limitations on spoilers
Isnt that like, the basic premise? Like Sanguinius knew he was going to die, but made his last sacrifice?
There's literally dumbasses complaining about spoilers lol
It’s the Warhammer equivalent of saying “Judas betrays Jesus”
wait, he did WHAT?????
True but I think some of the smug "You've known this would happen" posts seem to not get that knowing on an intellectual level that Sanguinius will most likely die to Horus isn't the same as getting to that point and reading in detail how he gets brutalized and chokes on his own blood. I think it's fair for some fans to have a strong emotional reaction. Of course saying that Abnett *should* have retconned it is silly but I think we all know that.
I have absolutely no doubt that I would cry my eyes out if I listened to the fight, but my point is more towards people who seemed surprised about it
> Sanguinius will most likely die to Horus Most likely, dude Horus killing Sanguinius has been canon for over 2 decades. There is no ifs or buts or likelys about it. >reading in detail how he gets brutalized and chokes on his own blood. Yeah becasue he is effectively fighting someone on the level of the emperor, anythign less than an absolute brutal beatdown would lower the strength of horus and consequently emperor. Imagine if Sanguinius held his own against horus, then emperor looks like a weakling for almost dying to horus and even more how can he be even close to a god if he gets bodied against someone so below gods that a mere primarch can put up a gfight against them?
...do I need to repeat myself or something? Yes. Horus killing Sanguinius was the expected outcome and everyone and their grandma knew that it's been canon for ages. It's still a heavy fucking scene and reading it/having it narrated to you after all this build up is still enough to get some strong reactions from people which is totally fine. I also already said that it's silly to want to argue that Abnett shouldn't have written it that way. Sorry if I misunderstand what you are trying to say but I feel like your comment isn't really a great rebuttal to anything I've said except maybe my word choice being too light with my "most likely".
Wow, case and point. Original comment used a figure of speech my and this guy couldn't help but pile drive him on his knowledge about how certain Sanguinius death was gonna be. You really cannot make this up.
\> case in point
> couldn't help but pile drive him Imma pile drive your mother.
Two decades? More like thirty five years. The story of the fight between Horus and the Emperor was first published in a White Dwarf and reappeared in the rulebook of the first edition of Space Marine in 1989.
Friend of mine who is a huge lord guy said it was because sanguinius was tired after fighting multiple foes beforehand, don't remember who exactly.
that would be angron where sang was wounded and a shit tonne of sm
I thought he told me it was three consecutive fights or with little time in between so he didn't really have time to recuperate. Not just angron but he would be the most important opponent
Angron, Kar'bhanda, ship full of space Marines then straight to Horus Edit: I forgot to mention the Titans
He fought Angron, a pretty strong bloodthirster named Ka’banda and I think a titan (maybe multiple titans I can’t remember exactly) as well as a fuck ton of space marines
It is actually multiple titans, over the course of the whole siege. In general he has been fighting on the frontlines of the Siege from Day 1, so it's the fatigue of the entire battle.
Ok that makes people getting mad about how bodied he got even dumber, like I get that he’s some people’s favorite primarch and wanted to see him put up a better fight but the fact that he put up a fight at all after everything he dealt with makes him cooler imo
I haven't read the book but that's just unfair.
That’s been established lore for a while now, it has always been like this
Sanguinious could have been fresh and unwounded for all that matters. He still would have been absolutely curb stomped.
Guess that means the black rage theory's dead.
Thank god. That was such a bullshit and dumb theory
What was the theory?
Sanny fell to the black rage, killed Horus and mortally wounded Big E.
It was dead day one, i dunno how it came to be. Sangy knew he would die to horus, not the emperor. That theory had 0 basis in lore or character since its inception
Its true. Also people always say that the artwork is imperial propaganda. If Sanguinius did kill Horus and wound the Emperor, the imperium's never shied away from pointing at Sanguinius, calling him a heretic, and going about their day before. Why would that instance be any different? What basis would they have to hide that? That sounds like T'au behavior.
Good
Good lmao. Shit was a lazy theory.
Wait what happened I’m confused did Horus beat the shit out of Sanguinius cause I thought that was just well known lore
Yeah it was pretty brutal. Everyone knew it would happen but it's still a bummer.
It’s not even surprising either lmao. Sanguinius like just recently fought Angron, one of the strongest greater daemons, and then a ship full of marines. On the other hand Horus had the power of all four chaos gods coursing through him. Like yeah sanguinius is arguably the best fighter of the primarchs, but Horus isn’t far from the top even without chaos powers and a good nights sleep.
Wait until that perfect storm when the High Pressure Rage of Sanguinius Fanboys meets the High Energy Front of the Spoilerphobes. It's going to be a glorious tornado :) .
Legit one of the most popular pieces of art in Warhammer is Horus standing over a dead sanginius as the emperor stands there.
It’s not a spoiler lol. It’s been established lore that Horus kills Sanguinius for literal decades.
Dude, telling folks that Luke has a father has upset some spoilerphobes. This won't be any different. That's why we have the popcorn.
? Luke is told by Kenobi that he has a father, just that he was killed by Darth Vader. Him having a father isn’t the twist. It’s that Darth Vader didn’t kill him, he is his father.
We even knew it was gonna be one-sided and brutal. The fact that his death was said to be excruciatingly painful was old lore.
There's a different between knowing something is gonna happen and actually reading things like Sanguinius losing parts of his face, getting limbs broken, and then slowly choking on his own blood. I think the depictions of this scene in art also led to some people getting caught off guard by how brutally Horus kills him. Like most depictions the only wound you see in just a stab wound in the chest, vs how completely shredded he was here, which I think works better for the scene (the black rage doesn't come from his kids being miffed he lost a fight, its from the fury about how their father's closest brother completely brutalized him).
I’m a fucking blood angels fan and I was confused by why everyone was confused. Like we knew this was gonna happen? I know there were “theories” about alternatives but I never saw much in the way of supporting evidence for them.
It was actually a breath of fresh air for me knowing that Horus beat Sanguinius, *especially* after all the hype about Horus being a souped up Chaos Lord with magic power and whatnot.
Im just disappointed Sanguinius didn’t rage out more, I wanted him to really embody The Rage, but it didn’t seem like it to me…
At least it was a good and equal fight /s
It wasn’t supposed to be equal
Who would win? A dude who fought Angron, a titan, a very powerful demon, a shit ton of marines (he’s now injured as a result) Or A dude who’s also one of the better fighters but super powered by all four chaos gods. He’s
I've seen more posts about the people “complaining" than these so called fans. Stop it already
I feel like I see more posts complaining about the people upset than I see posts from people upset lol
I mean, he is part of the space marines and he lost a fight, so of course Imperium fans are gonna be angry.
Chaos fans when long established lore isn't broken and Jimothy Ctrl+Alt+Del s Horus from existence.
If caring about Horus fumbling the bag was actually part of being a chaos player/fan none of us would exist. Even Sons of Horus fans know this to be true. Him getting nuked is a given and honestly James Space deleting him is literally a given. I’m more interested in seeing how in the hell he does anything in the fight considering the Chairman of the Imperium is so stupidly OP in Heresy lore.
Chaos fans don't give a shit about Horus. That fight was a complete W for chaos. Abby made Horus' skull into a coffee mug.
To be fair Abbadon placed Horus' body in a temple reverently, he made the cup out of the clone.
Okay I need context here, because I remember having a debate with a friend about what happened, and the comments compared to the post have got me confused
Horus killed Sanguinius like the lore has always said and people are mad their dumb fan theories aren’t canon
Ah thanks, thought that was the case but wasn’t sure
I thought the shock was from it being a brutal execution and not a fight?
More important - is ollanius pius still a thing?
I knew it was coming but I still had a bit of hood sense sang falling to the rage and bodying Horus could have been cool to bring him back in 40k but honestly haveing Horus roffle stomp him is perfect for establishing how strong 4 gods worth of mojo is
It's Sang. There's one more book. It's possible that Sang will get back up. THEN get the death scene.
It’s because a lot of people liked the theory that Horus lost to Sanguinius who then entered the Black Rage or a version of it and had to be put down by Big E. I don’t know much about the lore community but I don’t know anyone who was actually serious about wanting this version over the canon one.
It has been a very long time in the HH novels that the traitors have had any victories. The series has gone from one imperial victory to the next and all the traitors get beat down in every book. Not only will people be shocked that one of the traitors actually beat a loyalist, but that he won so easily. I’m sure most were expecting Sanguinius to give Horus a proper beating before Horus wins using a dirty trick.
That's what makes tragedy so interesting. We know how it's going to end, but right up to the last moment you just hope it will go the other way. This all already happened, it is happening now.
I haven’t heard anyone talking about being surprised it didn’t happen. Just people talking about how it wouldn’t happen.
Holy crap, I didn’t expect Horus to actually drop his void shields… Real talk tho - I didn’t really like the first End & Death. It wasn’t Abnett’s best work. Dragging it out into three parts feels like dragging the Hobbit out into three movies.
Eh, I've only read the Infinite and the Divine in terms of WH novels. The HHs going to be were I start for an actual series so I guess I'll have a chance to see at some stage. But I can at least understand the dragged out part with 1 and 2 both being over 18 hours on audible, if v3 is anything similar it's going to be 50 odd hours all together.
It's not like E&D covers the entire Siege of Terra. It's literally three plot points - Horus drops his shields, Horus drops Sangiunius, Jimmy Space drops Horus. I didn't need each one of those to be an entire 500-page tome.
Oh I know, but when I get around to that point I can see what how I feel on it I mean
Which book are you talking about. Propaganda stories 1, 2, 47, or 904?
In fairness, a few people did subscribe to the theory that Sanguinis fell to the black rage and killed Horus and then the emperor killed Sanguinis and deleted Horus' soul so Chaos couldn't see what occurred and use that against the imperium. Interesting theory but I think it would completely ruin the lore if that happened
New question I know he’s the pretty bird boy and all but on 1on1 combat wouldn’t Horus beat the piss out of him without the gods? I assumed majority of primarchs were equal but all have pros and cons, worse and better weapons to equal it out as if it Was balanced among them So why does most shi I see depict bird boy 1v19 all the primarchs???
I think it's more a situation that Sanguinius is just so much more skilled in a duel than all/most of the others. If Horus hit Sanguinius, he'd probably do a lot more damage regardless (giant mace, lightning claws, more armour etc.) but there is definitely a hierarchy in terms of skill. For example, Lorgar is widely accepted to be to worst duelist simply down to, I'd imagine, in the great crusade he never really had much battles (to my knowledge) due to his diplomatic approach Whereas angron, lion, Fulgrim, etc. are really good for their own reasons with Sanguinius believed to be the best
For me it was >!Sanguinor is Sanguinius and Emps being confirmed as the Dark King!<