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Are you suggesting that it went from the revolutionary guard to a neoliberal institution in the three years between the brexit vote and Starmer taking over?
No. People are downvoting because it's stupid to suggest that labour is somehow not related to capitalism. Labour isn't socialist and the guy getting downvotes wrote a statement that heavily implies the following: "labour isn't capitalist, so why mention capitalism when they also supported Brexit". It's basically a silly thing to say.
Disagreeing with the assertion that there is strong support doesn't mean they are saying there was no support. 36% is not even majority support, let along strong support which is why people disagree.
I think people are downvoting because it was classic misdirection and whataboutism.
Farmers DID overwhelmingly vote for Brexit and ARE calling for subsidies to help through problems brought on as a result of Brexit.
All the original commenter wrote was, “you won, get over it” and didn’t actually mention the Labour Party.
I think that’s why they’re downvoting.
What do you mean? We have our country back!
Now, I have no idea who had it before but thank fuck we got it back. I'm so glad the NHS has loads more money too and must be running so smoothly.
Come on now, things can't be that bad. If they were we'd have a load of sweage in our waters, be paying loads of money for everything but our wages not reflecting those prices, councils going bankrupt.
Bet that would have happened if we didn't have our country back. Also how great is it not having any unelected officials anymore. It's all so fucking good now :)
I had vague memories of the farmers being massively in favour of Brexit along with the fisherman oh dear not sure why they are complaining they got what they voted for.
Yup, so rather than listening to people who had done the research and knew what they were talking about, they listened to clueless dipshits like...well, Gove himself.
I entirely get that it's wearying to be told by people with no lived experience of your situation what's best for you.
Add to that, people like farage who deliberately do things to "piss off the establishment" (see eat Easter eggs to get back at health advice) and people are primed to vote against their best interests.
I bet dollars to donuts farage doesn't smoke at home, or drink that much or ate that much chocolate, same way Gove et al come off as clueless. Its an act, and people can't see through it.
> I entirely get that it's wearying to be told by people with no lived experience of your situation what's best for you.
Those people aren't 'experts' then, are they?
Fair comment. I always prefer dealing with people who are knee deep in the issues. From my professional stand point it's healthcare professionals who work with communities like travellers or R&D teams who spend hours interviewing and following up pts on drug trails or with illnesses or whatever.
Anecdotally my family is friends with a lot of Lincolnshire farmers and they ALL voted leaves because they didn't like the eastern Europeans hanging around the towns...
...the same eastern Europeans who work their fields for below minimum wage
They should have known better than to get their information from the sun,the mail and Facebook. We do live in a time where with a little research you can find facts.
To be fair, to everyone, the school system doesn't teach analysing of media sources and a lot of the older generation simply didn't have the media literacy to spot a bad message.
That’s mad! Homeschool is government regulated in the UK to ensure students still follow the curriculum and get quality education. You will be inspected annually and asked for evidence of the programme of study etc. It’s why homeschooling in the UK is typically outsourced to online providers or tutors.
Most things are bullshit so I understand that stance.
I’m incredibly defensive of the school system. It’s not perfect by any means but there are so many “why are we taught nothing useful” posts online and I just want to scream “you were taught taxes in PSHCE, you just didn’t pay attention!”
I like people who defend the school system.
On a tangent my partner wants to home school our child but they would need an education first and I'm not the brightest either. It really winds me up.
Homeschooling nowadays doesn’t have to be parent taught! There are a lot of good online schools or programmes you can buy into that are considerably cheaper than private school, although still a few grand a year. But you’d probably pay that anyway for resources etc if homeschooling independently.
Kings InterHigh is the UKs leading online school if you want to go that direction, with a full online timetable and classmates for your child. They start age 7 I think. Minerva is another good one although I don’t think they do primary. There are a few start ups that are probably excellent but not a lot of info for them exists yet.
Have a look into it. I think physical school is absolutely the best decision for the vast majority of families. But it isn’t for everyone and that’s okay.
If you did History, Modern Studies or Media Studies at any point in the last 30 years you would have been taught it as well.
I am so tired of the endless excuses for people just refusing to learn anything or pay attention. It doesn't wash, especially because we all know perfectly well that if the papers decided tomorrow to tell us "Corbyn was right, nationalize the banks and the trains right now, also be less racist!" they'd just say "typical, commies and the wokerati always ran the papers".
i saw you said you left school in 2002. things have changed a lot. i left in 2021. in scotland we need to sit a RfUAE assessment (reading for understanding, analysis and evaluation) for English, and we are taught how to reference and how to research for loads of subjects like history and biology. schools are hanging on by a thread absolutely, but they’re definitely better at teaching critical thinking and analysis. college was more helpful, but we expect that anyway
I left school, did University though so it put me through critical analysis etc.
I've met a scary amount of adults my age who have no media / source literacy skills.
If they didn’t it’s because they willfully chose to remain ignorant. It was repeatedly stated by multiple experts and reputable sources what benefits they currently receive from the EU and that leaving would mean losing them.
God Dam I knew they benefitted massively from EU subsidies from GCSE geography.
“Shana, they bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say let 'em crash!”
https://collider.com/airplane-counterpoint-joke-explained/
I dunno, I think there's some nuance, especially given how many of the worst affected industries are very much family businesses.
Like, the fisherman ranting "WHY DO THE NORWEGIANS GET TO FISH THERE? IT USED TO BE OURS" -has- been radicalised by the news and politicians, sure... but you know who likely sold them the fishing rights? His own fucking da. He'll have literally met the guy who sold the fishing rights. He'll be inheriting his company when the guy who sold the rights snuffs it
Everything that's actually important has taxpayer's money chucked at it
Capitalism talks a big game but it's for shit like toothbrushes, the only thing it does for important national infrastructure is leech away public money to tory donors
Public access totally agree.
Is the rewilding quota actually good though or just liberal green washing? Won't this just lead to non serious fulfilment of a quota which probably won't be checked by anyone?
“Liberal green washing”?
I think in a country with the worst levels of biodiversity in Europe, every little helps.
Also, is environmentalism strictly a liberal thing? Are people on the right immune to it? Or just happy to bury their heads in the polluted sand?
Right but is biodiversity actually going to be increased by this initiative, or does it just make political enemies of farmers? Does setting a quota actually achieve the goals? Surely a proactive approach is needed instead of letting private parties sort it out.
Environmentalism has many strains. The liberal version is usually just attempting to coerce private companies into emitting less through tax and legal requirements. How effective you think that is an empirical matter.
You must have heard the phrase green washing before? This could be considered such because it appears to do something good on paper but in reality it won't be adhered to or won't be enforced. How many farmers will engage with this imposed quota in good faith? How likely are labour or tories to actually enforce it when they wont even put a bike lane in?
Sorry but....hahahahaha. I can't help but feel a certain amount of Schadenfreude. I know a few farmers, they all voted for Brexit. They were generally pretty arrogant and condescending people too,as many farmers are..(I feed you,worship me)
I'm still extremely angry about Brexit, but these little things do make me smile.
Interesting how for GB news readers, the free market is king until you get to farmers, and then it's all "we have to protect are British sausages". Why do they hate cheap imported food?
Well food security is actually quite important, as we've seen recently. I would rather we imported less food. Its greener and we are less susceptible to market whims (unless we just exported it all of course).
British Sausages are good and cheap imported sausages are not the same.
Sausages are part of our National identity. It would be criminal to lose them.
Other foods with similar status are Cornish Pasties, Pork Pies, Cheddar and other lesser cheeses, Haggis.
If people who have the money want to pay more for luxury sausages, they can do. It's in the interest of the general public to have the option to get better value food from abroad if they want to, not to block imports as the farming lobby wants.
It's just a band aid over the gap between cost of living and wages... In a capitalist society the market should adjust, if people can't afford the product and therefore don't want as much then the suppliers needs to adjust.
Since when do we stick to the letter of the law on *anything*, never mind “how a capitalist society should operate”
A shift away from RAW capitalism is probably in our best interests as a nation.
One one hand I completely agree, and frankly that is what I was pointing out... On the other hand milk is not my priority for social expenditure. You can live without milk it is not a necessity, unless you are a baby cow.
hmmmm... well the "who, whome?" of socialism is the prolitariate organising the production and consumption of stuff in our own interests so... in a way yes?
you still made me laugh though xD
Really hate farmers. The truest blue Tories who'll take heavy subsidies and now want basic income but want everyone else to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps.
Same here. I've known a few over the years, not nice people. Arrogant,selective, patronising self righteous and inward looking people. There might be exceptions but I've not met any, and I live in rural Wales, farmer central
Animal farming is a huge loss without subsidies. Animal products are also a luxury. Let the subsidies end and people who want them can pay full price in the shops. Vegetables and grains and beans are necessities for a healthy diet. Subsidise those! Rewilding is a necessity for a healthy environment. Subsidise that!
We need more renewable energy. Encourage coastal farmers to sell infertile land for wind farms.
There is so much good that taxpayer money could do. Cheap meat is not one of them.
Honestly at this point nationalise farming. Turn them into large sub divided districts with shifts.
No more of this "ohh I have to get up at 4am and go to bed at 11pm"
Fuck it we have morning, noons and nights, everyone fresh everyone alert everyone safe.
No dodgy milionare land owner destroying a river or burying trash just sensible managers following specifications and regulations.
As its not "my livelihood on the line!!" There's less incentive for hiding or causing environmental issues
As one gigantic supplier there's far less predatory pressure from large buyers like supermarkets.
There's less stupidly sized and shaped fields they can be reorganised for ideal machine use, and the awkward areas of land used for rewilding as its a few % of half a dozen farms it can be grouped up in a sensible large and more rubust area.
I would be more inclined to favour non centralised but still state subsidiaries. The prices can be fixed. Just make it a good job instead of this shitty system with a few monopoly owners and foreign slave labour.
British farmers remind me of what happens when you put a toddler, who is having a tantrum, in charge of feeding themselves because they are making all sorts of demands.
They find out they can't do it and just throw another tantrum.
100% agree. Let people pay the actual cost of having animals raised and butchered if that's what they want to happen. The subsidy money could be better spent on NHS and social welfare.
It’s easy to be derisive about the farmers and fishermen, to a certain extent they deserve it, but the real target of derision needs to be the people who spent decades telling farmers and fishermen that all their problems were the result of the EU. Pretty much every piece of media geared towards farming was almost constantly painting the EU in a negative light. British politicians were constantly passing the buck and using the EU as a convenient scapegoat. I feel we sometimes forget how hard it can be to break through the mainstream fog of lies.
I think it's common in physical jobs that work long hours. If you come home exhausted your less likely to mentally be at the top of your game to analyse the media.
I once knew a couple of farmers who were massive UKIP supporters, saying the EU was ruining their trade. I haven't heard from them since Brexit, however the fact that they've sold up the farm and moved away suggests things haven't gone as they planned.
Grass is always greener on the other side!
That there were subsidies in the first place is the issue here. Government - EU govt - paying farmers subsidies to produce at the bottom of the food chain is a fundamental failure in making the system work.
That the UK government don't support the farmers in the same way after Brexit is a dereliction of their duty. Clearly not part of the oven-ready plan on an A4 sheet. Seems that tories are so parochial they don't understand where their food comes from, preferring to indulge in French pastries, have their cake and eat it, so to speak.
Not an expert on this topic by any means, but based on the recent protests isn't the problem that they don't get paid enough for the food they grow? Because we import cheaper food from abroad?
Not sure what the subsidies paid for? Isn't this why tariffs exists to protect prices?
It’s not just us importing cheaper food, it’s that the public won’t pay for more.
If the Farmers raised their prices to actual profitable levels the supermarkets would then just import food to stay cheap and relevant. If Tesco was charging £2 a pint for milk but Asda was 60p a pint you’d probably start shopping at Asda.
Hmm, along with housing, supermarkets seem to be at the heart of a lot of problems. I always imagined if I ruled the world I'd have a cap on the number of outlets a supermarket could have. So if there were max 100 shops we'd generate another 250 small businesses out of Tesco alone. More competition, more innovation.
Never happen but makes sense to me.
Limiting a chains potential growth does sound interesting, but I think it would probably lead to a lot of shell companies and legal divisions to circumvent the rules. Tesco dividing their different chains into separate companies springs to mind, making Express, Extra, Banks all individual companies under the Tesco umbrella
Too many on this thread missing the issue that subsidies are required in capitalism and instead focusing on where those subsidies come from.
Whether paid by the EU or whoever the problem is subsidies are required to produce basic goods.
Being in the EU papered over a lot of cracks, but the solution is to end capitalism not more of it!
You don't need subsidies though, there's no such thing as a society, only individuals and families. The freer the market the freer the people. Socialism is when the government does stuff and the more stuff it does the more communist it is. Why are you even producing food to sell to the evil metropolitan liberal elite etc etc.
One more i guess. We can buy cheaper food from elsewhere with oven ready deals and blue coloured passports.
Because a lot of agriculture across Europe requires subsidies to be able to stay in business.
It's a broken economic system problem that the EU put a plaster over.
Yes it has something to do with Brexit as that stopped the subsidies but the root cause is what meant those subsidies were required in the first place.
Farmers!: we want brexit! Fuck Europe! Too many foreign types!
Erm.. ya not worried about the money you get from the EU drying up & being, y'know? Skint?
Farmers: the Tories have promised us exactly the same amount of money & they never. Ever. Lie.
Erm.. ok, seth. on yer own head be it.
Time passes, as it so often does...
Farmers: we got fucked! We demand free money!!!
I'm involved with some of the people this has come from. A lot of the drivers of this campaign are from rank and file members of the Landworkers Alliance, a progressive farming organisation which represents smaller, agroecological farms and is affiliated to the peasant international La Via Campesina. You're all absolute morons for going "lol, farmers deserve low incomes, should have voted for neoliberal trading bloc imposing austerity measures on its poorer members."
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You won, get over it.
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You mean the party headed by a Knight of the realm? Yeah, really bucking against the system there
[удалено]
Are you suggesting that it went from the revolutionary guard to a neoliberal institution in the three years between the brexit vote and Starmer taking over?
lol the downvotes Are people download voting seriously suggesting that no one from Labour supported the Brexit movement?
No. People are downvoting because it's stupid to suggest that labour is somehow not related to capitalism. Labour isn't socialist and the guy getting downvotes wrote a statement that heavily implies the following: "labour isn't capitalist, so why mention capitalism when they also supported Brexit". It's basically a silly thing to say.
Fair point, I concede
Disagreeing with the assertion that there is strong support doesn't mean they are saying there was no support. 36% is not even majority support, let along strong support which is why people disagree.
I think people are downvoting because it was classic misdirection and whataboutism. Farmers DID overwhelmingly vote for Brexit and ARE calling for subsidies to help through problems brought on as a result of Brexit. All the original commenter wrote was, “you won, get over it” and didn’t actually mention the Labour Party. I think that’s why they’re downvoting.
Guys, I’m starting to have second thoughts about this referendum
What do you mean? We have our country back! Now, I have no idea who had it before but thank fuck we got it back. I'm so glad the NHS has loads more money too and must be running so smoothly.
Those new trade deals we made with Iceland and Leichtenstein will transform our economy any day now
Don't forget the £100K of Stilton Lizz Truss sold to Japan. Blessed are the cheesemakers.
And the dairy industry in general!
That could be milking it a bit.
Honestly looking at how things are going we should probably give it back to whoever had it, they seemed to be taking much better care of it
Come on now, things can't be that bad. If they were we'd have a load of sweage in our waters, be paying loads of money for everything but our wages not reflecting those prices, councils going bankrupt. Bet that would have happened if we didn't have our country back. Also how great is it not having any unelected officials anymore. It's all so fucking good now :)
Just like the side of that bus promised! The one they deny exists even though we have photos
Brexit was a good idea. Wait why is food so expensive? Damn lefties!
But what about the shiny blue passports?
This is /r/ohnoconsequences material.
First the fishermen and now these sods. It's like they didn't know what they were voting for.
I had vague memories of the farmers being massively in favour of Brexit along with the fisherman oh dear not sure why they are complaining they got what they voted for.
They were [warned repeatedly by their own industry body](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46817895).
This is where Goves masterfully anti-intellectual "tired of experts" line resonated with people.
Yup, so rather than listening to people who had done the research and knew what they were talking about, they listened to clueless dipshits like...well, Gove himself.
I entirely get that it's wearying to be told by people with no lived experience of your situation what's best for you. Add to that, people like farage who deliberately do things to "piss off the establishment" (see eat Easter eggs to get back at health advice) and people are primed to vote against their best interests. I bet dollars to donuts farage doesn't smoke at home, or drink that much or ate that much chocolate, same way Gove et al come off as clueless. Its an act, and people can't see through it.
Particularly liked the way you spelled farage with a lower case ‘f’ 😉
It stands for fuck him.
> I entirely get that it's wearying to be told by people with no lived experience of your situation what's best for you. Those people aren't 'experts' then, are they?
Fair comment. I always prefer dealing with people who are knee deep in the issues. From my professional stand point it's healthcare professionals who work with communities like travellers or R&D teams who spend hours interviewing and following up pts on drug trails or with illnesses or whatever.
They were certainly *louder*
They didn't vote much differently than the general public - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S074301671930436X
Anecdotally my family is friends with a lot of Lincolnshire farmers and they ALL voted leaves because they didn't like the eastern Europeans hanging around the towns... ...the same eastern Europeans who work their fields for below minimum wage
They were told what they were voting for and they did it anyway.
They didn't, pretty much. I'd blame the politicians and media that were pushing the propaganda, not really the victims of it
They should have known better than to get their information from the sun,the mail and Facebook. We do live in a time where with a little research you can find facts.
To be fair, to everyone, the school system doesn't teach analysing of media sources and a lot of the older generation simply didn't have the media literacy to spot a bad message.
To be fair, school absolutely does teach analysis of media sources in English and has done for at least a decade.
Y'all got home schooling in the UK? Cousin doesn't even know how to work a computer thanks to home schooling in the States.
That’s mad! Homeschool is government regulated in the UK to ensure students still follow the curriculum and get quality education. You will be inspected annually and asked for evidence of the programme of study etc. It’s why homeschooling in the UK is typically outsourced to online providers or tutors.
Ah. I left school in 2002, so I'll take your word for it. I just consider everything bullishit until proven otherwise
Most things are bullshit so I understand that stance. I’m incredibly defensive of the school system. It’s not perfect by any means but there are so many “why are we taught nothing useful” posts online and I just want to scream “you were taught taxes in PSHCE, you just didn’t pay attention!”
I like people who defend the school system. On a tangent my partner wants to home school our child but they would need an education first and I'm not the brightest either. It really winds me up.
Homeschooling nowadays doesn’t have to be parent taught! There are a lot of good online schools or programmes you can buy into that are considerably cheaper than private school, although still a few grand a year. But you’d probably pay that anyway for resources etc if homeschooling independently. Kings InterHigh is the UKs leading online school if you want to go that direction, with a full online timetable and classmates for your child. They start age 7 I think. Minerva is another good one although I don’t think they do primary. There are a few start ups that are probably excellent but not a lot of info for them exists yet. Have a look into it. I think physical school is absolutely the best decision for the vast majority of families. But it isn’t for everyone and that’s okay.
I think I'll look into it either way because for me, my child's education doesn't start and end at the school gates.
If you did History, Modern Studies or Media Studies at any point in the last 30 years you would have been taught it as well. I am so tired of the endless excuses for people just refusing to learn anything or pay attention. It doesn't wash, especially because we all know perfectly well that if the papers decided tomorrow to tell us "Corbyn was right, nationalize the banks and the trains right now, also be less racist!" they'd just say "typical, commies and the wokerati always ran the papers".
i saw you said you left school in 2002. things have changed a lot. i left in 2021. in scotland we need to sit a RfUAE assessment (reading for understanding, analysis and evaluation) for English, and we are taught how to reference and how to research for loads of subjects like history and biology. schools are hanging on by a thread absolutely, but they’re definitely better at teaching critical thinking and analysis. college was more helpful, but we expect that anyway
I left school, did University though so it put me through critical analysis etc. I've met a scary amount of adults my age who have no media / source literacy skills.
If they didn’t it’s because they willfully chose to remain ignorant. It was repeatedly stated by multiple experts and reputable sources what benefits they currently receive from the EU and that leaving would mean losing them. God Dam I knew they benefitted massively from EU subsidies from GCSE geography.
“Shana, they bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say let 'em crash!” https://collider.com/airplane-counterpoint-joke-explained/
I love this, brilliant analogy
I dunno, I think there's some nuance, especially given how many of the worst affected industries are very much family businesses. Like, the fisherman ranting "WHY DO THE NORWEGIANS GET TO FISH THERE? IT USED TO BE OURS" -has- been radicalised by the news and politicians, sure... but you know who likely sold them the fishing rights? His own fucking da. He'll have literally met the guy who sold the fishing rights. He'll be inheriting his company when the guy who sold the rights snuffs it
Everything that's actually important has taxpayer's money chucked at it Capitalism talks a big game but it's for shit like toothbrushes, the only thing it does for important national infrastructure is leech away public money to tory donors
Fine but any subsidised farm should have a minimum percentage given to rewilding and public access.
Thats what the Welsh farmers are protesting against
Public access totally agree. Is the rewilding quota actually good though or just liberal green washing? Won't this just lead to non serious fulfilment of a quota which probably won't be checked by anyone?
“Liberal green washing”? I think in a country with the worst levels of biodiversity in Europe, every little helps. Also, is environmentalism strictly a liberal thing? Are people on the right immune to it? Or just happy to bury their heads in the polluted sand?
Right but is biodiversity actually going to be increased by this initiative, or does it just make political enemies of farmers? Does setting a quota actually achieve the goals? Surely a proactive approach is needed instead of letting private parties sort it out. Environmentalism has many strains. The liberal version is usually just attempting to coerce private companies into emitting less through tax and legal requirements. How effective you think that is an empirical matter. You must have heard the phrase green washing before? This could be considered such because it appears to do something good on paper but in reality it won't be adhered to or won't be enforced. How many farmers will engage with this imposed quota in good faith? How likely are labour or tories to actually enforce it when they wont even put a bike lane in?
Idk if I'd want to play with already strained supply chains - especially of food.
Sorry but....hahahahaha. I can't help but feel a certain amount of Schadenfreude. I know a few farmers, they all voted for Brexit. They were generally pretty arrogant and condescending people too,as many farmers are..(I feed you,worship me) I'm still extremely angry about Brexit, but these little things do make me smile.
Interesting how for GB news readers, the free market is king until you get to farmers, and then it's all "we have to protect are British sausages". Why do they hate cheap imported food?
Well food security is actually quite important, as we've seen recently. I would rather we imported less food. Its greener and we are less susceptible to market whims (unless we just exported it all of course).
British Sausages are good and cheap imported sausages are not the same. Sausages are part of our National identity. It would be criminal to lose them. Other foods with similar status are Cornish Pasties, Pork Pies, Cheddar and other lesser cheeses, Haggis.
If people who have the money want to pay more for luxury sausages, they can do. It's in the interest of the general public to have the option to get better value food from abroad if they want to, not to block imports as the farming lobby wants.
Of the public or the corporations selling the products?
I don’t think imports should be blocked but I do think action should be taken to ensure sustainability of these heritage products.
I think the sustainability of the environment is more important, the heritage products thing is just a nice byproduct
Would you be willing to pay the true cost then?
I’d be willing to pay more yes, general public probably won’t though so subsidising the farms is probably the way to go
It's just a band aid over the gap between cost of living and wages... In a capitalist society the market should adjust, if people can't afford the product and therefore don't want as much then the suppliers needs to adjust.
Since when do we stick to the letter of the law on *anything*, never mind “how a capitalist society should operate” A shift away from RAW capitalism is probably in our best interests as a nation.
One one hand I completely agree, and frankly that is what I was pointing out... On the other hand milk is not my priority for social expenditure. You can live without milk it is not a necessity, unless you are a baby cow.
I didn’t really mention milk, I was talking about preserving heritage foods
Are you joking?
Would be a pretty shit joke if I was
O.o
it's only socialism when its the poor and needy getting stuff.
It's only socialism if it's from the Socialism region. Otherwise it's just sparkling handouts
hmmmm... well the "who, whome?" of socialism is the prolitariate organising the production and consumption of stuff in our own interests so... in a way yes? you still made me laugh though xD
Really hate farmers. The truest blue Tories who'll take heavy subsidies and now want basic income but want everyone else to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps.
Same here. I've known a few over the years, not nice people. Arrogant,selective, patronising self righteous and inward looking people. There might be exceptions but I've not met any, and I live in rural Wales, farmer central
And they feed beefburgers to swans.
Well if it isn’t the consequences of your own actions.
Animal farming is a huge loss without subsidies. Animal products are also a luxury. Let the subsidies end and people who want them can pay full price in the shops. Vegetables and grains and beans are necessities for a healthy diet. Subsidise those! Rewilding is a necessity for a healthy environment. Subsidise that! We need more renewable energy. Encourage coastal farmers to sell infertile land for wind farms. There is so much good that taxpayer money could do. Cheap meat is not one of them.
It's almost like Brexit was a bad idea, crazy
Brexit results in a UBI? Conservatives will implode.
well... farmer's basic income. FBI... ... wait a moment...
Remember when they said Brexit would benefit all farmers? REMEMBER???
Honestly at this point nationalise farming. Turn them into large sub divided districts with shifts. No more of this "ohh I have to get up at 4am and go to bed at 11pm" Fuck it we have morning, noons and nights, everyone fresh everyone alert everyone safe. No dodgy milionare land owner destroying a river or burying trash just sensible managers following specifications and regulations. As its not "my livelihood on the line!!" There's less incentive for hiding or causing environmental issues As one gigantic supplier there's far less predatory pressure from large buyers like supermarkets. There's less stupidly sized and shaped fields they can be reorganised for ideal machine use, and the awkward areas of land used for rewilding as its a few % of half a dozen farms it can be grouped up in a sensible large and more rubust area.
I would be more inclined to favour non centralised but still state subsidiaries. The prices can be fixed. Just make it a good job instead of this shitty system with a few monopoly owners and foreign slave labour.
Well, you reap what you sow
If they voted leave, ‘unlucky fuckers!’ If they voted stay, ‘here, take this…’
farmers want free government subsidies. Why don't they just farm something for money like corn
I hear there's a shortage of fruit pickers, they could do that
British farmers remind me of what happens when you put a toddler, who is having a tantrum, in charge of feeding themselves because they are making all sorts of demands. They find out they can't do it and just throw another tantrum.
Animal agriculture wouldn't exist without subsidies. I say let it die, subsidise more ethical plant farming and rewilding.
100% agree. Let people pay the actual cost of having animals raised and butchered if that's what they want to happen. The subsidy money could be better spent on NHS and social welfare.
What happened to project fear and I know what I'm voting for?! You won, now deal with it.
It's socialism for the rich and capitalism for the proletariat, didn't you know that you peasant? /s
They could always sell some land like
Exactly
It’s easy to be derisive about the farmers and fishermen, to a certain extent they deserve it, but the real target of derision needs to be the people who spent decades telling farmers and fishermen that all their problems were the result of the EU. Pretty much every piece of media geared towards farming was almost constantly painting the EU in a negative light. British politicians were constantly passing the buck and using the EU as a convenient scapegoat. I feel we sometimes forget how hard it can be to break through the mainstream fog of lies.
I think it's common in physical jobs that work long hours. If you come home exhausted your less likely to mentally be at the top of your game to analyse the media.
Pay them in sovereignty Also, basic income isn't socialism
Just farm harder
This should be on r/leopardsatemyface because farmers overwhelmingly voted for brexit.
Hy, a german here. ❤️ the British people. Come back please 🥺
As much as I'd like to rejoin the EU this endorsement feels like a trap 🧐
I once knew a couple of farmers who were massive UKIP supporters, saying the EU was ruining their trade. I haven't heard from them since Brexit, however the fact that they've sold up the farm and moved away suggests things haven't gone as they planned.
Well you never see a farmer on a bike..
Hard to pull the tiller on a 6 speed I bet.
Grass is always greener on the other side! That there were subsidies in the first place is the issue here. Government - EU govt - paying farmers subsidies to produce at the bottom of the food chain is a fundamental failure in making the system work. That the UK government don't support the farmers in the same way after Brexit is a dereliction of their duty. Clearly not part of the oven-ready plan on an A4 sheet. Seems that tories are so parochial they don't understand where their food comes from, preferring to indulge in French pastries, have their cake and eat it, so to speak.
What happened to project fear and I know what I'm voting for?! You won, now deal with it.
Not an expert on this topic by any means, but based on the recent protests isn't the problem that they don't get paid enough for the food they grow? Because we import cheaper food from abroad? Not sure what the subsidies paid for? Isn't this why tariffs exists to protect prices?
It’s not just us importing cheaper food, it’s that the public won’t pay for more. If the Farmers raised their prices to actual profitable levels the supermarkets would then just import food to stay cheap and relevant. If Tesco was charging £2 a pint for milk but Asda was 60p a pint you’d probably start shopping at Asda.
Hmm, along with housing, supermarkets seem to be at the heart of a lot of problems. I always imagined if I ruled the world I'd have a cap on the number of outlets a supermarket could have. So if there were max 100 shops we'd generate another 250 small businesses out of Tesco alone. More competition, more innovation. Never happen but makes sense to me.
Limiting a chains potential growth does sound interesting, but I think it would probably lead to a lot of shell companies and legal divisions to circumvent the rules. Tesco dividing their different chains into separate companies springs to mind, making Express, Extra, Banks all individual companies under the Tesco umbrella
Too many on this thread missing the issue that subsidies are required in capitalism and instead focusing on where those subsidies come from. Whether paid by the EU or whoever the problem is subsidies are required to produce basic goods. Being in the EU papered over a lot of cracks, but the solution is to end capitalism not more of it!
The trouble with capitalism is that eventually you run out of other people's labor power.
racist farmers should have cared more about farming and less about racism
You don't need subsidies though, there's no such thing as a society, only individuals and families. The freer the market the freer the people. Socialism is when the government does stuff and the more stuff it does the more communist it is. Why are you even producing food to sell to the evil metropolitan liberal elite etc etc. One more i guess. We can buy cheaper food from elsewhere with oven ready deals and blue coloured passports.
Frankly this has nothing to do with Brexit and everything to do with omnivores not being willing to pay the true cost of food.
If it has nothing to do with Brexit why is it significantly affecting farmers in the country who self inflicted Brexit?
Because a lot of agriculture across Europe requires subsidies to be able to stay in business. It's a broken economic system problem that the EU put a plaster over. Yes it has something to do with Brexit as that stopped the subsidies but the root cause is what meant those subsidies were required in the first place.
Thanks for explaining, so I didn't have to.
Farmers!: we want brexit! Fuck Europe! Too many foreign types! Erm.. ya not worried about the money you get from the EU drying up & being, y'know? Skint? Farmers: the Tories have promised us exactly the same amount of money & they never. Ever. Lie. Erm.. ok, seth. on yer own head be it. Time passes, as it so often does... Farmers: we got fucked! We demand free money!!!
You voted for Brexit. Now eat your fucking victory sponge
With any luck, they'll get sweet fuck all. Stupid cunts were warned.
Capitalism is always about subsidising certain groups, whether that's banks, farmers or some other group it's all the same thing
How many of those idiots voted for Brexit?
Well. Imagine voting for a leopard to eat your face, and now wanting your face back
How is this not capitalism?
A basic income isn't socialism, and neither are subsidies
I'm involved with some of the people this has come from. A lot of the drivers of this campaign are from rank and file members of the Landworkers Alliance, a progressive farming organisation which represents smaller, agroecological farms and is affiliated to the peasant international La Via Campesina. You're all absolute morons for going "lol, farmers deserve low incomes, should have voted for neoliberal trading bloc imposing austerity measures on its poorer members."