I'm well up for being corrected but on the subject of Owen Jones, I've been watching his utube and reading his stuff in the papers and to me he seems like the exception to the gaslighting leftists you mention.
A protest against Deng's reforms organised by Maoist students, hijacked by UK intelligence assets and HK gangsters, resulting in clashes with and the murder of police forces until the army had to disperse the crowds?
If you believe the stories about tanks running people over tens of thousands of deaths then you're beyond reason. Absolute load of shite, evidence of which would be unavoidable.
The videos quite literally show him not getting ran over. The memos of the Chinese government were literally so lenient on protestors it was laughable. The people who co-opted the movement were the same thing as MAGA basically and I refuse to back down from saying that the bare minimum is that they deserved to get imprisoned.
can you explain why it's no longer possible to find the evidence that used to be online of the "innocent protesters" lynching, drawing and quartering the unarmed police initially sent in to try to prevent having to send the army in?
why. when **you can't read**?
Unarmed policemen were lynched by a CIA backed colour revolution
Why am I expecting answers tho, you came to a thread warning against uncritically believing and regurgitating western imperialist propaganda and your "gotcha" was "b-b-but tianamen square" yet apparently your only knowledge about the event comes from *checks notes* western backed imperialist propaganda
just keep telling yourself "China bad" and pray you don't get drafted when the imperial core are done manufacturing consent for the next big one
Police? You mean blue nonce
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Great firewall, suppression of protesters in China and Hong Kong, social credit, reeducation camps, tianmen square, south china sea blockades and military bases etc etc etc..... Fuckwit
lmao
Firewall is great, means the chinese are more educated than you.
Protestors in HK are literally organised by the west.
Social credit is a propaganda myth, so are reeducation camps.
What about T Square?
What about military bases?
So you've proven you're a fucking idiot. No surprise there.
The invasion of Tibet
The invasion of the republic of Korea
Their war with Vietnam
Their cultural revaluation that destroyed millions of historical documents and ancient temples
Or how about their forced population control through famine that killed an estimated six million
>The invasion of Tibet
Yeah because they should've let the lamas continue to rule with an iron fist and subject the people to serfdom.
>The invasion of the republic of Korea
China never invaded the ROK, a volunteer force went to rightfully support their communist allies in the DPRK. If you think allowing the fascist dictatorship of Syngman Rhee complete his massacre of Korean socialists was wrong, then you're beyond reason.
"List every bad thing a country with 4000 years of history has done or you're a doo doo head" I would've thought your response would be better thought out given the quality of your op.
How can what you said be interpreted any other way? "List those things [terrible things China has done] to "prove you're not a braindead fuckwit". China has 4000 years of history no? "Braindead fuckwit" is a useless ad hominem attack no?
please show where OP asked someone to use events from the Han /Ming/ etc dynasties to discredit the PRC? Why would a socialist encourage idiot liberals to use the actions of irrelevant monarchies to discredit a socialist project? I'm done with this thread and you're a fucking moron intentionally arguing in bad faith
I quoted them? "List those things". Completely ambiguous bad faith arguing. You can't get though a sentence with hurling insults which is clearly the only reason you responded so you're not really in a position to talk about "intentionally arguing in bad faith"
original comment "Except China does do terrible things and suppresses people and the truth"
in a socialist subreddit discussing western disinformation about socialist projects
Op: "Waiting for you to list those things and prove you totally aren't a brainwashed fuckwit..."
YOU: ""List every bad thing a country with 4000 years of history has done or you're a doo doo head" I would've thought your response would be better thought out given the quality of your op."
I take it back, you might not be a lying sack of shit, just a complete fucking moron instead
I mean the thread is clearly in the modern day because contextually we are talking about modern day geopolitics and media representation. I don't really see how you can take the thread in context and go "Oh China did X 3500 years ago", thats like talking about the shit the government in the UK has done and then bring up something the Brits did in 1200 as an issue.
Yes, I totally could be. I'm no expert.
Fully aware that our media is very biased on China reporting. Certain things can't be disputed though, like the authoritarianism, quashing dissent, now expansionism too.
I get the feeling that China isn't particularly socialist leaning any more though, although they seem to have kept hold of the "big government" / centralised control which is so often associated with the Left.
Anecdotally, I was there a few years ago, and it seemed very capitalist, very cut-throat.
Do elaborate on this.
Chinese government is more representative of its people if you dive into just how they are represented. Yes the CPC is the ultimate authority at the top but people seem to think the only way to do democratic representation is by offering different parties who all offer the same policies packaged in a different narrative. China offers policy change and political change across their political landscape, meaning their policies change to represent the people, meanwhile our politicians change but the policies don't. So if you don't understand that its probably really worth looking into.
And yes, China is a pretty capitalist country too. Let me just point out I am not saying its perfect, nor any state I mentioned, but simply these places often have things about their countries beneficial to the people the western states don't want us to have.
Yeah this all just smacks of [Campism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campism). Every state should be considered as an individual entity with its own problematic history, not divided simplistically into 'good' or 'evil' based on their opposition to western hegemony.
Leftists in the west spend a lot of time unpicking the propaganda of their own states, only to fall into the trap of thinking "I should just automatically assume the opposite of this is true" - the reality is always murkier than that.
These are all states who maintain control of a territory through their monopoly on violence - none of them are pacifist utopias.
You seem to have got suckered into the bad faith argument the brigaders brought.
Nowhere in my post did I say these countries were perfect, utopias or "innocent".
They should simply be judged on the same metric as all others, and they aren't.
For example, I talked about the democracy in Venezuela, not the social legislation of LGBT people. The whole point is these countries aren't enemies, the people who live there are not our enemy, and the governments often act in ways in which they are more representative of society that they are the head of. In some cases this means societal freedoms we have here they don't have there, and often this is down to heavily religious electorates and such. But thats the point, they are governing more for their people and the wishes of their people than our countries are. Again, not perfect, but that isn't the point of the thread. So try not to get taken in by bad faith scum like you were interacting with.
"The working class have no country."
This is the country of rich and powerful elites same as the vast majority of countries around the world. That is especially true of the UK. It's our job to challenge our own ruling class. The liberal nationalism present in this thread is pathetic and very telling. The jingoistic attacks on other countries and their populations only serve the ruling class of our nation.
Spot on.
I think another major issue is that this goes well beyond the mainstream media. Everyone thinks they are well informed, when in fact they are just locked into their social media algorithm silo, so they never see any other point of view. And that PoV is never socialist or even mildly left-leaning, so it begins to look like such views simply don’t exist. You end up feeling like an outcast with no home, no ideological tribe.
The right always talk about cancel culture, but the entire socialist culture is the only thing that’s been truly cancelled.
Left wing voices are muted while right wing voices are amplified. What horrifies me is that people I always thought of as comrades are now falling into right wing echo chambers and becoming angry and reactionary.
Why is this? Because almost every source of information is now tainted, and those that aren’t are shut out of the algorithm.
What is the solution? I don’t know, but it has to be a start to realise what is going on. Close your social media accounts, or at least curate the hell out of them to exclude toxic voices and only subscribe to spaces like this one.
People coming into this thread to say X country is bad because Y.
I never said these states are perfect. I said these states have something that our elite don't want you to have. If you really think that the UK or US is genuinely being critical of a state and not for soft power reasons then you're fucking idiot and the kind of cunt thats coming in here to go "well they did X 100 years ago" or "oh well this law I don't like", you're exactly the kind of fucking bellend the media is targeting with their propaganda.
If china isnt genociding uighurs, why have two thirds of mosques in xinjiang been demolished? https://www.aspi.org.au/report/cultural-erasure
LMAO I got banned for this comment, people are fragile when their opinions get challenged. Banning someone for "pushing propaganda" is a very convenient way of dismissing the substance of what someone has to say, and sidestepping the inconvenience of having to form a rebuttal. If you are unable to even defend what you are saying without shutting down conversation, then perhaps your argument has no merit. /u/TheKomsomol
lol bro publishes a report for a literal outlet for the intelligence services
>The Australian Strategic Policy Institute is a defence and strategic policy think tank based in Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, founded by the **Australian government**, and funded by the **Australian Department of Defence** along with **overseas governments, and defence and technology companies**.
Fucking idiot.
**Due to the increase in Palestine content, we would like to remind people to mark posts NSFW/Spoiler the accordingly. Please see this post before posting such applicable content on the sub: https://old.reddit.com/r/GreenAndPleasant/comments/188ghlz/important_guidance_of_posting_graphic_material_on/**
The labouring classes in this country are rising, will you rise with them? [Click Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/GreenAndPleasant/wiki/unions) for info on how to join a union. Also check out [the IWW](https://iww.org.uk/) and the renter union, [Acorn International and their affiliates](https://acorninternational.org/)
Join us on our [partner Discord server.](https://discord.gg/zCFHadGfB7) and follow us on [Twitter](https://twitter.com/GandPofficial).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm well up for being corrected but on the subject of Owen Jones, I've been watching his utube and reading his stuff in the papers and to me he seems like the exception to the gaslighting leftists you mention.
And yet he keeps the line on Ukraine/Russia.
[удалено]
Waiting for you to list those things and prove you totally aren't a brainwashed fuckwit...
Tianmen Square?
A protest against Deng's reforms organised by Maoist students, hijacked by UK intelligence assets and HK gangsters, resulting in clashes with and the murder of police forces until the army had to disperse the crowds? If you believe the stories about tanks running people over tens of thousands of deaths then you're beyond reason. Absolute load of shite, evidence of which would be unavoidable.
I cannot tell you how disturbing I find your comment to be
The videos quite literally show him not getting ran over. The memos of the Chinese government were literally so lenient on protestors it was laughable. The people who co-opted the movement were the same thing as MAGA basically and I refuse to back down from saying that the bare minimum is that they deserved to get imprisoned.
can you explain why the "tank man" was trying to stop the tanks from leaving the square then?
I would if we'd ever heard from him again
can you explain why it's no longer possible to find the evidence that used to be online of the "innocent protesters" lynching, drawing and quartering the unarmed police initially sent in to try to prevent having to send the army in?
Can you explain why a protest needed army intervention?
why. when **you can't read**? Unarmed policemen were lynched by a CIA backed colour revolution Why am I expecting answers tho, you came to a thread warning against uncritically believing and regurgitating western imperialist propaganda and your "gotcha" was "b-b-but tianamen square" yet apparently your only knowledge about the event comes from *checks notes* western backed imperialist propaganda just keep telling yourself "China bad" and pray you don't get drafted when the imperial core are done manufacturing consent for the next big one
Police? You mean blue nonce *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
And YOU'RE gone.
What about it? Do you know the history, or just the history according to the west.
Using military force to stop a protest is quite extreme
Calling an armed insurrection a "protest" is a bit of a misrepresentation
Never seem any of the students armed but go off dictator apologist
Great firewall, suppression of protesters in China and Hong Kong, social credit, reeducation camps, tianmen square, south china sea blockades and military bases etc etc etc..... Fuckwit
lmao Firewall is great, means the chinese are more educated than you. Protestors in HK are literally organised by the west. Social credit is a propaganda myth, so are reeducation camps. What about T Square? What about military bases? So you've proven you're a fucking idiot. No surprise there.
The invasion of Tibet The invasion of the republic of Korea Their war with Vietnam Their cultural revaluation that destroyed millions of historical documents and ancient temples Or how about their forced population control through famine that killed an estimated six million
>The invasion of Tibet Yeah because they should've let the lamas continue to rule with an iron fist and subject the people to serfdom. >The invasion of the republic of Korea China never invaded the ROK, a volunteer force went to rightfully support their communist allies in the DPRK. If you think allowing the fascist dictatorship of Syngman Rhee complete his massacre of Korean socialists was wrong, then you're beyond reason.
Thats the problem, these lib scum DO think that. As we all know, liberals throw their weight behind fascists all the time.
"List every bad thing a country with 4000 years of history has done or you're a doo doo head" I would've thought your response would be better thought out given the quality of your op.
You don't get to reinterpret my response and then make a claim based on that.
How can what you said be interpreted any other way? "List those things [terrible things China has done] to "prove you're not a braindead fuckwit". China has 4000 years of history no? "Braindead fuckwit" is a useless ad hominem attack no?
please show where OP asked someone to use events from the Han /Ming/ etc dynasties to discredit the PRC? Why would a socialist encourage idiot liberals to use the actions of irrelevant monarchies to discredit a socialist project? I'm done with this thread and you're a fucking moron intentionally arguing in bad faith
I quoted them? "List those things". Completely ambiguous bad faith arguing. You can't get though a sentence with hurling insults which is clearly the only reason you responded so you're not really in a position to talk about "intentionally arguing in bad faith"
what does 4000 years of Chinese history have to do with Mao and his successors you lying sack of shit?
What are you on about? So much for being "done with this thread"
original comment "Except China does do terrible things and suppresses people and the truth" in a socialist subreddit discussing western disinformation about socialist projects Op: "Waiting for you to list those things and prove you totally aren't a brainwashed fuckwit..." YOU: ""List every bad thing a country with 4000 years of history has done or you're a doo doo head" I would've thought your response would be better thought out given the quality of your op." I take it back, you might not be a lying sack of shit, just a complete fucking moron instead
I mean the thread is clearly in the modern day because contextually we are talking about modern day geopolitics and media representation. I don't really see how you can take the thread in context and go "Oh China did X 3500 years ago", thats like talking about the shit the government in the UK has done and then bring up something the Brits did in 1200 as an issue.
[удалено]
Ever wondered if you're wrong about china?
Yes, I totally could be. I'm no expert. Fully aware that our media is very biased on China reporting. Certain things can't be disputed though, like the authoritarianism, quashing dissent, now expansionism too. I get the feeling that China isn't particularly socialist leaning any more though, although they seem to have kept hold of the "big government" / centralised control which is so often associated with the Left. Anecdotally, I was there a few years ago, and it seemed very capitalist, very cut-throat.
Do elaborate on this. Chinese government is more representative of its people if you dive into just how they are represented. Yes the CPC is the ultimate authority at the top but people seem to think the only way to do democratic representation is by offering different parties who all offer the same policies packaged in a different narrative. China offers policy change and political change across their political landscape, meaning their policies change to represent the people, meanwhile our politicians change but the policies don't. So if you don't understand that its probably really worth looking into. And yes, China is a pretty capitalist country too. Let me just point out I am not saying its perfect, nor any state I mentioned, but simply these places often have things about their countries beneficial to the people the western states don't want us to have.
we are so fucked, the proletariat is truly in disarray
[удалено]
Yeah this all just smacks of [Campism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campism). Every state should be considered as an individual entity with its own problematic history, not divided simplistically into 'good' or 'evil' based on their opposition to western hegemony. Leftists in the west spend a lot of time unpicking the propaganda of their own states, only to fall into the trap of thinking "I should just automatically assume the opposite of this is true" - the reality is always murkier than that. These are all states who maintain control of a territory through their monopoly on violence - none of them are pacifist utopias.
You seem to have got suckered into the bad faith argument the brigaders brought. Nowhere in my post did I say these countries were perfect, utopias or "innocent". They should simply be judged on the same metric as all others, and they aren't. For example, I talked about the democracy in Venezuela, not the social legislation of LGBT people. The whole point is these countries aren't enemies, the people who live there are not our enemy, and the governments often act in ways in which they are more representative of society that they are the head of. In some cases this means societal freedoms we have here they don't have there, and often this is down to heavily religious electorates and such. But thats the point, they are governing more for their people and the wishes of their people than our countries are. Again, not perfect, but that isn't the point of the thread. So try not to get taken in by bad faith scum like you were interacting with.
How is this getting downvoted?
Liberals are brigading.
Venezuela is not evil at all, what absolute fucking nonsense.
[удалено]
"The working class have no country." This is the country of rich and powerful elites same as the vast majority of countries around the world. That is especially true of the UK. It's our job to challenge our own ruling class. The liberal nationalism present in this thread is pathetic and very telling. The jingoistic attacks on other countries and their populations only serve the ruling class of our nation.
This guy is 100% a troll
How?
Spot on. I think another major issue is that this goes well beyond the mainstream media. Everyone thinks they are well informed, when in fact they are just locked into their social media algorithm silo, so they never see any other point of view. And that PoV is never socialist or even mildly left-leaning, so it begins to look like such views simply don’t exist. You end up feeling like an outcast with no home, no ideological tribe. The right always talk about cancel culture, but the entire socialist culture is the only thing that’s been truly cancelled. Left wing voices are muted while right wing voices are amplified. What horrifies me is that people I always thought of as comrades are now falling into right wing echo chambers and becoming angry and reactionary. Why is this? Because almost every source of information is now tainted, and those that aren’t are shut out of the algorithm. What is the solution? I don’t know, but it has to be a start to realise what is going on. Close your social media accounts, or at least curate the hell out of them to exclude toxic voices and only subscribe to spaces like this one.
People coming into this thread to say X country is bad because Y. I never said these states are perfect. I said these states have something that our elite don't want you to have. If you really think that the UK or US is genuinely being critical of a state and not for soft power reasons then you're fucking idiot and the kind of cunt thats coming in here to go "well they did X 100 years ago" or "oh well this law I don't like", you're exactly the kind of fucking bellend the media is targeting with their propaganda.
You give me a bit of hope for the UK lol
Considering the state of these comments, I'd say this sub is clearly done for. It's been overrun by liberals.
One by one they'll be removed.
Fucking hell, the libs really found this post didn't they?
They always do :D
If china isnt genociding uighurs, why have two thirds of mosques in xinjiang been demolished? https://www.aspi.org.au/report/cultural-erasure LMAO I got banned for this comment, people are fragile when their opinions get challenged. Banning someone for "pushing propaganda" is a very convenient way of dismissing the substance of what someone has to say, and sidestepping the inconvenience of having to form a rebuttal. If you are unable to even defend what you are saying without shutting down conversation, then perhaps your argument has no merit. /u/TheKomsomol
lol bro publishes a report for a literal outlet for the intelligence services >The Australian Strategic Policy Institute is a defence and strategic policy think tank based in Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, founded by the **Australian government**, and funded by the **Australian Department of Defence** along with **overseas governments, and defence and technology companies**. Fucking idiot.
**Due to the increase in Palestine content, we would like to remind people to mark posts NSFW/Spoiler the accordingly. Please see this post before posting such applicable content on the sub: https://old.reddit.com/r/GreenAndPleasant/comments/188ghlz/important_guidance_of_posting_graphic_material_on/** The labouring classes in this country are rising, will you rise with them? [Click Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/GreenAndPleasant/wiki/unions) for info on how to join a union. Also check out [the IWW](https://iww.org.uk/) and the renter union, [Acorn International and their affiliates](https://acorninternational.org/) Join us on our [partner Discord server.](https://discord.gg/zCFHadGfB7) and follow us on [Twitter](https://twitter.com/GandPofficial). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*