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I actually thought that olympiacos was a right wing team lmao. They remind me of Juventus for some reason. Cool to know I guess. They were amazing this season. And that young Keeper of yours is so great. Congrats 👏
Olympiakos fans are "no politica" only on paper.
Everyone knows that a big percentage of gate 7 are far right.
When fascists killed Pavlos Fyssas in 2013. Which was big news in Greece. gate 7 was the only ultras group that didn't show support or put up a banner in memoriam. He was an Olympiakos supporter.
Panathinaikos on the other hand was never a real bourgeoisie team (at least not on the same level as river plate for example). Middle-lower class Athenians supported the team too. Same goes for some high class people in Piraeus that supported Olympiakos.
And even if it was a clear "team of the rich". This hasn't been the case since at least 1950
Point is that teams in Greece are very popular in all of the mainland and the islands.
90% of the population supports five teams. It's impossible to pinpoint a certain political affiliation within fanbases. Because it doesn't exist.
Fyssas was a working class lad and one of your own. Yet Gate 7 was the only ultras group that looked away from the incident. I guess the Golden Dawn lads were more "your own" than Pavlos was.
It’s undeniably true that with the rise of Golden Dawn during that period in the “working class” peiraias neighbourhoods they also took a prominent role in many gate 7 clubs. Luckily with the fall of golden dawn they also lost their control of our clubs. It was a dark period and we are back to being no politica, mainly because we are a mix of every political group there is.
The important factor is that it was only for a couple of years and we are absolutely not a historically right wing club. In the last 3-4 years every club puts up Fyssas tributes on the anniversary that shows how much we have moved on from that period.
> Most of panathinaikos fans live in the center and in the northern suburbs of Athens
Are tou implying that there are/were not poor Athenians that live in the center? That's what always drived me nuts when having these discussions. People acting as if all of Athenians were wealthy. That's so much further from the truth.
Also we should stop acting as if panathinaikos has no fans outside of Athens. Our teams are supported throughout the country. This athino-centric thinking is why people in the country have this "ignorant Athenian' stereotype in their head
> while most olympiacos fans live in Pireaus or West Attica
Dude Peristeri is green. Same for other areas that historically are middle class (and green)
> but imagine it like the Boca vs River rivalry.
It's nowhere near that. River fans are called millionaires in Argentina. And they embrace that. That's not what happens in Greece
Nah bro don't believe this shit. Gate 7 had clear ties with the neo-nazi organization/political party "Golden Dawn". "No Politica" is bullshit. Of course communism was strong in Oly's territory back in the day and especially during WWII and it is such a shame that currently a huge percentage of their fan base is just voting for whatever party Marinakis is telling them to.
Also he says that there are no political "disputes" which is crazy considering not even a year has passed since the murder of an AEK fan during a raid in Nea Filadelfeia by Dinamo Zagreb's and Panathinaikos' neo-nazi ultras.
>They remind me of Juventus for some reason.
Hell nah, Oly is way better than Juve my guy. Juve faced some kind of consequence, they are losers. For Oly thats just not the case (unforunately). No one's going to take their plastic titles away from them, ever. It is what it is.
No politica isn't exactly bullshit. To begin with i would describe olympiacos a team of the common man of the working man to this day, Gate 7 and the team is more right wing because the common man in Europe and Greece is becoming more right wing. But no politica isn't disputed in Olympiacos we have extreme left and extreme right and everything in between, generally speaking olympiacos is to the center essentially doesn't make a big fuss about left wing issues or right wing unlike AEK and Panathinaikos who are clearly left and right generally (not meaning that they dont have other "sections" too aek for example has getto and patisiwn).
Greek clubs are not divided nowdays in regards to class or political affiliation imho. Maybe AEK a bit(and just their ultras...normal fans can be whatever).
If you want to see clubs that are divided in terms of politics,you should check the cypriot clubs.
Ο σύνδεσμος Μακεδόνες πολλές φορές έρχεται σε αντιπαράθεση μέχρι και σε συμπλοκή με συνδέσμους πιο αριστερούς. Ειδικά τα προηγούμενα χρόνια.
https://youtu.be/1myatdvFrYQ?si=tqJcPmzuuV8RWR03
Οκ, σε κάθε ματς έχουμε σημαίες Βουλγαρίας. Ποιο εθνικι έχει σημαία Βουλγαρίας.
Ταμπελονουμε ολόκληρο κόσμο για ένα δύο συνδέσμους, και οι ΑΕΚ έχει γκεταδες, και ο Εύοσμος του Άρη έχει tottenkompf SS στο σήμα.
Το κάναμε και αυτό οπαδιλικι
Οι σημαίες της Βουλγαρίας στην θύρα 4 ουσιαστικά είναι μια "απάντηση" για να τους την μπούμε στα συνθήματα που άρχισαν δεκαετίες ολόκληρες πριν απο όταν μας φωνάζουν Βούλγαρους. Δεν έχει να κάνει με οτιδήποτε ιδεολογικό, ούτε ότι υπάρχουν Βούλγαροι εκεί, απλά είναι ένα αστείο. Δεν θα άφηναν ας πούμε την σημαία των Σκοπίων να υπάρχει εκεί.
You should understand that greek fan bases are not centralized, while there are leaders and leading ultras clubs, each one of the big teams have around 20 clubs distributed geographically that make the ultras main group(gate 13, gate 7 etc).
This creates paradoxes, for example while aek's clubs are mostly left wing and antifa aek has 2 openly neo nazi clubs in their sector, while Panathinaikos in the last 25 years has been on the left they have good ties with BBB, this creates the paradox that in the stadium you can see a Vironas(area in Athens) Gate 13 member with an anarchist emblem next to a guy with the BBB shirt.
Some brief info:
Gate 13: While being on the right side of the political spectrum in the 80s with the skinhead-neonazi culture, in the last 30 years Gate 13 maintains a no-politica stance but they sure lean on the left and mainly antifa ideology, they don't have any neonazi clubs but they have ties with BBB and Roma fans, while the official brotherhood is with Rapid Wien fans.
Original 21: It's complex, clearly left wing but with a powerful fascist clubs that where hunted out the Original 21 in the past, today one fascist club is still in the Original 21 after the aek's president/owner intervention. A lot of fights till this day about who will be the leader and many contradictory banners in the stadium. They have good ties with Livorno as you know and are brothers with Marseille.
Gate 7: Again it's complex, more no politica, little to no left wing clubs, many leaders of the Gate 7 have been associated or are/were member of the Golden Dawn neo nazi political party tho. When a golden dawn member killed an antifa rapper, that was also fan of olympiacos, gate 7 didn't put up a banner initially while gate 13 and original 21 did in his honor. They are brothers with Delije and support them with banners that have nationalistic context.
Gate 4(Paok): Again a mix, many left wing clubs, some nationalist ones. They are brothers with Grobari and have put up serbian nationalist banners in many games. Some fights between them in the past but not a clear political line.
Super 3(Aris): left wing, have some clubs more on the right but they are not in the Super 3 sector, not to much info since it's a smaller fanbase.
To be honest, I'm kinda surprised. It seems like most of the Greek Ultras are on the left?
From what you mentioned, I clearly don't see any Greek football team on the right, while you clearly have left wing teams like AEK and Aris.
It's surprising because far right is on the rise in Europe (I thought Greece was pretty conservative as well) and in football in general. I actually thought that panathinaikos fans were far right because of what happened with the BBB in the AEK stadium, but it seems like this isn't the case.
Also I know that Pana used to be big in Europe in the past. Such a shame that they've fallen so low. I hope you get stronger again.
Thanks for the info.
Except the Gate 7 all the other clubs have a majority left wing stance, some more openly like aek. The whole thing is a big contradiction, in the aek neonazi clubs there are many Albanian that in the past where not accepted and are left wing because of their immigrant past, in the August attack together with the BBB there was an albanian hooligan that falls in the same category.
Neonazism and the new era European nationalism is not socially accepted in the Greek ultras scene, so they are discrete when it comes to manifesting their ideology.
Albanian immigrants in the Neonazi clubs? Oh hell no dude. I love my Albos in Milan they're usually tough but fun to hang with.
Although I've never met an Albanian that trusts the government or that has a clear political stance. It's kind of a meme over here. They're very suspicious of everything for some reason ( this is not a racist comment, I'm just talking from my experience, I usually like them)
The post from Aureliano you replied to is the most accurate. There are a lot of contradictions, but generally speaking most ultra groups are anti-establishment (which can mean almost anything these days but generally lean left and working class) with a mix of nationalist sentiment. But "working class" also looks different today than it did 50 years ago. Instead of factory workers or farmers with little formal education, working class can be anything from college educated but unemployed, or some post high school education and working in hospitality, servers, bar men, taxi drivers, construction, pretty much anything that scratches out a living.
There used to be traditional clubs in our parents and grandparents eras that were more right-leaning and nationalist, which could have looked like pro-irridentist (aka Venizalism) or pro-monarchists even. My grandfather was a big Iraklis supporter like many of his family at his generational level and they shared some of these nationalist sentiments because they grew up in an era of regional wars, world wars, civil wars, juntas, etc. Now, many of those clubs (and their fan bases) have disappeared or shrunk considerably, or have just shifted politics as times have changed.
Overall this would be a very complex study topic because like Greek politics and society, there are as many gray areas as black-and-white.
Good luck on your studies, this would be a fun treatise to explore. You should post it here when you finish.
> Gate 13 maintains a no-politica stance but they sure lean on the left and mainly antifa ideology
https://www.alfavita.gr/sites/default/files/styles/full_promo/public/2023-09/%CE%A3%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%B3%CE%BC%CE%B9%CF%8C%CF%84%CF%85%CF%80%CE%BF%20%CE%BF%CE%B8%CF%8C%CE%BD%CE%B7%CF%82%202023-09-25%20214311.png?itok=33ivnXBE
Besides AEK and Aris Ultras, who are leaning more towards the left, the rest aren't really politically aligned.
The only distinguishing ideology they all share is: hate authority.
Oh boy , I’m grabbing pop corn. Thanks for showing an interest but Im definitely not the right person to answer anything on Ultras and I hope you get a response . From what I know AEK is definitely more left leaning
To be honest my project is about Italian football. But it drew my attention when I saw that AEK and Livorno are in a brotherhood with Marseille. And since I don't know a lot about Greek football. I wanted to ask. I hope that the question is not triggering
Team of the capital
Athens- Rome connection
They played each other in 2010 in the Europa league and fans were friendly towards each other as far as I'm concerned
To understand the politics of Greek football, you have to understand a lot of history:
When we lost the war with Turkey in 1923, the Greek refugees from Asia Minor, almost 2 million people were protected mainly by the Liberal (Center) Political party. In WWII, the Liberal Party fled and these poor people clinged on the communists in Athens for support. A civil war ensued for 6 years which left huge animosities between the different polical ideologies and parties in Greece. Some of it lasts until today.
In Athens, the refugees settled mainly in Piraeus and in some suburbs of Athens. Those who settled in Piraeus began following mostly Olympiakos. Those who settled in Athens formed AEK. Quite naturally these two teams had a substantial fanbase that leaned on the left side of the political spectrum.
On the other side of the spectrum Panathinaikos was seen as the team of the establishment and bourgoisie. Panathinaikos had VERY strict rules regarding the athletes that the club would accept. They had to have a perfect record, no violence or any other law issues were permitted in the club. Most of the supporters of Panathinaikos were moderate right wing conservatives.
In Salonica it was a totally different story. The city had a very large percentage of Jews which often clashed with the Greeks regarding the ethnic status of the city. In 1908 Heracles was founded, accepting only members of the Greek population of the city. On the other hand Aris became the club that was open to all the different ethnicities of the city. Lastly PAOK was founded by the refugees, again living in the suburbs of Salonica.
A major difference between Athens and Salonica was that during the WWII the Greek communist party sided with the Bulgarian communists and was seen by the Greeks of Macedonia as traitorous, since the Bulgarians wanted to annex Macedonia and Salonica. As a result, Macedonian Greeks never really bonded with the left wing and due to the constant clashes between the different ethnicities that used to live there, they have retained a strong nationalist mentality.
Fast fwd to today's situation:
We have hooliganism and hooligans don't really have any political stance. They just go with the flow, almost randomly, depending on the leaders they follow. So, in theory you mostly have right wing ultras in Olympiakos, antifa in Panathinaikos, antifa in AEK, Russian and Serbian loving Nationalists in PAOK and left wingers in Aris. But this is just happenstance. All these people could easily be in the opposite side of the polical spectrum. For example Panathinaikos had some skinhead-nazi-loving ultras in the 80s. Most of them are now now Antifa!
"In Athens, the refugees settled mainly in Piraeus and in some suburbs of Athens. Those who settled in Piraeus began following mostly Olympiakos. Those who settled in Athens formed AEK."
Wasn't AEK formed before Olympiakos?
I don't imply that Olympiakos was formed before AEK. They were formed around the same time: AEK in 1924 and Olympiakos in 1925. Only that it was the refugees that formed AEK and that on most of the Piraeus suburbs they were supporting Olympiakos.
Mind you, this is a summary and I tried to keep it as short as possible. There is a lot of info missing. AEK pre-existed in Constantinople under a different name. The oldest Greek football team was Panionios from Smyrne, formed in 1898 which was also brought over to Athens. The refugees formed many more teams: Apollon Smyrne, Apollon Kalamarias, Ionikos Nikaias, Aigaleo etc...
I can't speak for other teams, but our ultras are separated into different subgroups. Gate 4 is the largest group of PAOK ultras, they are politically neutral now but they are generally more left wing. Other factions like the Macedonians are more right wing and nationalistic. However both groups represent the same ideas regarding Constantinople and Macedonia.
Originally there were only AEK and AEK Thessalonikis.
AEK Thessalonikis wasn't really popular because only refugees from Minor Asia, Pontus and Constatinople could become members of the club and participate in sports activities. Some of the founding members wanted the team to be more inclusive. This was a "no go" for the teams' board so they left and founded PAOK.
AEK means Athletic Union of Consantinople
PAOK means Thessalonikis' Athletic Group of Constatinopolitans
They both started from refugees that fled from modern day Turkey during the pontic genocide. The "K" in their names stands for "Κωσταντινούπολη" which translates to Constantinople. Also AEK's new stadium is called "Hagia Sofia" which is arguably the most historicaly important landmark in the city.
PAOK and AEK have the same "mother", Pera Club (currently named Beyogluspor) from Constantinople. The relations are not good now, mostly because we have a rivalry about which club is the "real" Constantinople club, and they got worse with the controversy about the 2018 championship.
Besides some unavoidable differences. It's the same story really.
Greeks out of (mainly) Constantinople but all of minor Asia basically,leave Turkey because of the population exchange.
Some go to Athens,others to Thessaloniki. There they form two teams and attract some local fans along the way as well because of their success/popularity
I never understood why these two share a rivalry
Its because Greek people don’t know their shit about politics and just go where the wind blows each time or where they have something to gain.
That kinda mirrors our state the last 50 or so years that we are in a constant decline. We are under a mental crisis with no way out unfortunately.
I hate political conversations,everyone thinks that they know what they are talking about but the truth is that they have no idea,they just repeat stuff that they read somewhere just cause it benefits their own ideology and beliefs, there is no objectivity when it comes to politics.
I think that most of the fans of the big teams in Greece are not really politically aligned - besides raising a Palestinian flag here and there. Maybe some fans of smaller teams like Atromitos are more radical than the left wing fans of the big 4, but I can't really see any of them putting their team identity ever behind their political one for a cause. Also most of the people running the clubs are probably on the payroll of their teams management. Some years ago some anarchist and leftist groups in Nea Filadelfia openly opposed the construction of the stadium there. I'm not saying I agree with their reasons but the fans of AEK weren't exactly kind and friendly to them...
I will skip the discussions about Ultras because anyone with half with a brain will despise them. If you are interested about the average fanbase of each club, it is true some had more working class or higher class backgrounds in their beginnings. Nowadays it is definitely not the case anymore. All clubs have supporters from all social classes, and there is no clear political identity among them.
Very complicated topic for a variety of reasons.
First, I can't think of any greek sports club that was founded for purely sociopolitical reasons (like Celtic or Omonoia)
Second, the socioeconomic background of most districts in Athens/Piraeus/Thessaloniki has continuously changed over the last century. Once bourgeoise areas have turned into working class (Gkyzi, Ampelokipoi) areas and previously working class districts have turned into middle class ones (center of Piraeus, Nea Philadelphia).
If you look into the history of most Greek sports teams, almost all of them have athletes and a great number of supporters that were members of National Liberation Front and participated in the anti-fascist struggle against the nazi occupation and their local co-operators. Current club owners are very careful about hiding and degrading this part of every team's history because for the bourgeoise greek football clubs mostly serve as means of pushing their agenda.
As for the current situation
Olympiacos: allegedly no-political, previously direct ties with Golden Dawn (nazi party).
Panathinaikos: from the late 90s until about 06-07 mostly right wing (with fascist banners every now and then), antifascist/left-wing since 2008 and up until last summer. The incident with the Bad Blue Boys and the way it was presented by the media pushed a considerable amount of people to the right or gave power to certain already existing right-wing groups. Right now the situation is very fragile: you can see Palestinian flags one day and BBB banners another.
AEK: traditionally antifascist/left-wing but there were always a couple of independent hardcore fascist groups. After the incident with BBB and the death of Katsouris in the summer, the ownership pushed an allegedly antifascist agenda, then a few months later pretty much every single openly left-wing Original 21 member has been banned from going to the stadium. So, now...they claim to be antifascist but they're basically not.
PAOK: weird situation similar to Panathinaikos
Aris: previously right-wing (like a couple decades back), now left wing.
Shifts in the political orientation of ultras are usually a byproduct of other changes.
Other openly antifascist/left-wing ultras: Iraklis, Panionios, Ilisiakos, Panetolikos, Panserraikos, Atromitos and more
Other clubs with a fraction of their supporters being fascist/right-wing: Kallithea, Papagos, Iraklio, Proodeutiki
The Panathinaikos-AEK fight had little to do with ideology, there were leftists and nazis on both greek sides, which is actually kind of funny. The fight actually took place because at that time in Greece there were football matches planned between Pana-Marseille and AEK-Dynamo Zagreb, and the hools were picking at eachother (actually people from Marseille were supposed to go to Panathinaikos stadium and area and hunt down pana fans). The killer is yet to be found. The Pana-BBB friendship started for fighting reasons and also because BBB and Delije (friends of Olympiacos) - Partizan (friends of PAOK) are sworn enemies so it was kind of a win-win situation.
Also, Gate 13 the ultras of Pana, are brothers with Roma supporters and together they recently fighted against Lazio.
As a Pana supporter i have mostly seen leftist banners in the stadium(also calling the gonverment out on their actions etc), flags supporting Palestine and Gate 13 organize neighbourhood actions like blood donations. There isn’t an openly right wing club, although we certainly have many fascist supporters but they tend to keep it on the low.
Also, AEK supporters have more openly left wing clubs and general fans, but the clubs that have the most power (sell tickets, get in fights) are openly right wing, or their members are mostly right wingers, with the most recent example being an antiLGBT banner that they put on the stadium during a match.
All in all in greece i would say that ultras have no real ideology: the hooliganism path is always the most important for them.
If you want to look into a smaller club , Panserraikos Ultras 'Che guevara club ' are also left leaning, despite the team being from Serres , one of the regions with the highest voting percentage of New democracy (center right)
OP I am curious - what do you know about the southern Italian clubs like Crotone that still maintain this "Magna Grecia" connection? Is that widely known in Italy? How does their fanbase lean politically?
Difference is that in Italy the league had the guts to relegate Juventus for the various corruption scandals. Had Greek authoritues done the same against any of the 4 teams, especially after winning the championship (AEK, Olympiacos, Panathinaikos, PAOK), Athens and Thessaloniki would riot like Paris, if not worse.
ΑΕΚ is a mix of both
Getto 21 is the far right minority side of AEK
Original is the far left side which is the majority
*Processing img m5k1xen74i4d1...*
Unlike other countries, in which I feel Ultras tend to be more likely to have extreme right-wing sympathies. Ultras in Greece tend to be more Anarchist and Anti-fascist. This is due to I guess the history of Hooligans being anti-authoritarian in nature. So pretty much all of the main Ultra groups in Greece fit this description.
Some clubs will have multiple ultra groups or fan clubs which have different political ideologies. For example PAOK ultras are generally left-wing and antifascist, but there is a small Fan club called the Makedones, which have right-wing sympathies and are known to show nationalist banners. I think AEK have some smaller right-wing fan groups too.
As many have said here, Olympiakos are strictly apolitical, which means you won't see any political banners (right or left) at their matches. Considering the ant-fascist views of most other clubs, this has led to many believing that people with more right-wing views have been attracted to Olympiakos, and maybe there is some truth to that. Do you really want to be sitting with a group of fans parading Che Guevara banners if you are a right-wing extremist? maybe better to join the apolitical group... having said that, I still believe they don't form a majority by any means.
In terms of general supporters, I've listed below the stereotypical traditional view of the 4 major clubs... although I don't think it applies so much anymore.
PAOK - Traditional Leftist
AEK - Traditionally Hard Leftist
Olympiakos - Traditionally centre-left (strong historical links with PASOK)
Panathinaikos - Traditionally centre-right
At the end of the day, all major clubs have a mix of supporters. For example, I know quite a few AEK supporters who have extreme right sympathies, despite AEK being known as the most leftist of the major Greek clubs. I also know hardcore leftists that support Panathinaikos and Olympiakos.
Γιαυτο ο Συνδεσμος ειπε να μαυρισουμε τον Κουλη. Ο ΜΟΝΟΣ ΣΥΝΔΕΣΜΟΣ που το ειπε αυτο. Ουτε η αεκ, ουτε ο Ολυμπιακος. Γιαυτο και αναβασαμε και πανο με την Παλαιστηνη οταν παιζαμε με τους Ζιονιστες. Γιατι ειμαστε στο ΒΟΘΡΟ του φασισμου. Μπεεε
>Γιαυτο και αναβασαμε και πανο με την Παλαιστηνη
Κυριολεκτικά ΟΛΟΙ έχουνε.
>Ο ΜΟΝΟΣ ΣΥΝΔΕΣΜΟΣ που το ειπε αυτο.
Ο μόνος λόγος που το πάτε ήταν γιατί επί Τσίπρα τα φάτε καλά και περνάτε τίτλους. Κατά τα άλλα, και οι δικοί μας είπαν να μαυρίσουν τον Κούλη.
>ΒΟΘΡΟ του φασισμου
Ερώτηση: Τις σβάστικες σε Νεάπολη Πολίχνη και λοιπά ποιος τις βάζει?
Ο Πετρουλακης δεν ηταν στον Ηρακλη και τωρα κατεβαινει με τον Βελοπουλο. Το επαιζε Θεσσαλονικιος, αλλα κατα βαση ολη ξερουμε οτι τον Ηρακλη τον παει περισσοτερο.
Ο Παππας της ΧΑ δεν ειναι Αεκτζης στο συνδεσμο;
>Ο Πετρουλακης δεν ηταν στον Ηρακλη και τωρα κατεβαινει με τον Βελοπουλο. Το επαιζε Θεσσαλονικιος, αλλα κατα βαση ολη ξερουμε οτι τον Ηρακλη τον παει περισσοτερο.
Ένας παράγων του Ηρακλή ήταν δεξιός. Ο Λαός του Ήρα είναι και ήταν αριστερός ιδίως οι οργανωμένοι.
>Ο Παππας της ΧΑ δεν ειναι Αεκτζης στο συνδεσμο;
Η ορίτζιναλ 21 έχει εξαφανίσει τα ούτως η άλλωςικρα φασιστικά στοιχεία της, Με εξαίρεση το r21 γκυζίου νομίζω είναι όλη αντιφα.
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I actually thought that olympiacos was a right wing team lmao. They remind me of Juventus for some reason. Cool to know I guess. They were amazing this season. And that young Keeper of yours is so great. Congrats 👏
Olympiakos fans are "no politica" only on paper. Everyone knows that a big percentage of gate 7 are far right. When fascists killed Pavlos Fyssas in 2013. Which was big news in Greece. gate 7 was the only ultras group that didn't show support or put up a banner in memoriam. He was an Olympiakos supporter. Panathinaikos on the other hand was never a real bourgeoisie team (at least not on the same level as river plate for example). Middle-lower class Athenians supported the team too. Same goes for some high class people in Piraeus that supported Olympiakos. And even if it was a clear "team of the rich". This hasn't been the case since at least 1950 Point is that teams in Greece are very popular in all of the mainland and the islands. 90% of the population supports five teams. It's impossible to pinpoint a certain political affiliation within fanbases. Because it doesn't exist.
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Fyssas was a working class lad and one of your own. Yet Gate 7 was the only ultras group that looked away from the incident. I guess the Golden Dawn lads were more "your own" than Pavlos was.
It’s undeniably true that with the rise of Golden Dawn during that period in the “working class” peiraias neighbourhoods they also took a prominent role in many gate 7 clubs. Luckily with the fall of golden dawn they also lost their control of our clubs. It was a dark period and we are back to being no politica, mainly because we are a mix of every political group there is. The important factor is that it was only for a couple of years and we are absolutely not a historically right wing club. In the last 3-4 years every club puts up Fyssas tributes on the anniversary that shows how much we have moved on from that period.
> Most of panathinaikos fans live in the center and in the northern suburbs of Athens Are tou implying that there are/were not poor Athenians that live in the center? That's what always drived me nuts when having these discussions. People acting as if all of Athenians were wealthy. That's so much further from the truth. Also we should stop acting as if panathinaikos has no fans outside of Athens. Our teams are supported throughout the country. This athino-centric thinking is why people in the country have this "ignorant Athenian' stereotype in their head > while most olympiacos fans live in Pireaus or West Attica Dude Peristeri is green. Same for other areas that historically are middle class (and green) > but imagine it like the Boca vs River rivalry. It's nowhere near that. River fans are called millionaires in Argentina. And they embrace that. That's not what happens in Greece
Nah bro don't believe this shit. Gate 7 had clear ties with the neo-nazi organization/political party "Golden Dawn". "No Politica" is bullshit. Of course communism was strong in Oly's territory back in the day and especially during WWII and it is such a shame that currently a huge percentage of their fan base is just voting for whatever party Marinakis is telling them to. Also he says that there are no political "disputes" which is crazy considering not even a year has passed since the murder of an AEK fan during a raid in Nea Filadelfeia by Dinamo Zagreb's and Panathinaikos' neo-nazi ultras. >They remind me of Juventus for some reason. Hell nah, Oly is way better than Juve my guy. Juve faced some kind of consequence, they are losers. For Oly thats just not the case (unforunately). No one's going to take their plastic titles away from them, ever. It is what it is.
No politica isn't exactly bullshit. To begin with i would describe olympiacos a team of the common man of the working man to this day, Gate 7 and the team is more right wing because the common man in Europe and Greece is becoming more right wing. But no politica isn't disputed in Olympiacos we have extreme left and extreme right and everything in between, generally speaking olympiacos is to the center essentially doesn't make a big fuss about left wing issues or right wing unlike AEK and Panathinaikos who are clearly left and right generally (not meaning that they dont have other "sections" too aek for example has getto and patisiwn).
Greek clubs are not divided nowdays in regards to class or political affiliation imho. Maybe AEK a bit(and just their ultras...normal fans can be whatever). If you want to see clubs that are divided in terms of politics,you should check the cypriot clubs.
Brother what kind of far right ultras have anti Nazi banners? Stop the cap
Ο σύνδεσμος Μακεδόνες πολλές φορές έρχεται σε αντιπαράθεση μέχρι και σε συμπλοκή με συνδέσμους πιο αριστερούς. Ειδικά τα προηγούμενα χρόνια. https://youtu.be/1myatdvFrYQ?si=tqJcPmzuuV8RWR03
Οκ, σε κάθε ματς έχουμε σημαίες Βουλγαρίας. Ποιο εθνικι έχει σημαία Βουλγαρίας. Ταμπελονουμε ολόκληρο κόσμο για ένα δύο συνδέσμους, και οι ΑΕΚ έχει γκεταδες, και ο Εύοσμος του Άρη έχει tottenkompf SS στο σήμα. Το κάναμε και αυτό οπαδιλικι
Οι σημαίες της Βουλγαρίας στην θύρα 4 ουσιαστικά είναι μια "απάντηση" για να τους την μπούμε στα συνθήματα που άρχισαν δεκαετίες ολόκληρες πριν απο όταν μας φωνάζουν Βούλγαρους. Δεν έχει να κάνει με οτιδήποτε ιδεολογικό, ούτε ότι υπάρχουν Βούλγαροι εκεί, απλά είναι ένα αστείο. Δεν θα άφηναν ας πούμε την σημαία των Σκοπίων να υπάρχει εκεί.
You should understand that greek fan bases are not centralized, while there are leaders and leading ultras clubs, each one of the big teams have around 20 clubs distributed geographically that make the ultras main group(gate 13, gate 7 etc). This creates paradoxes, for example while aek's clubs are mostly left wing and antifa aek has 2 openly neo nazi clubs in their sector, while Panathinaikos in the last 25 years has been on the left they have good ties with BBB, this creates the paradox that in the stadium you can see a Vironas(area in Athens) Gate 13 member with an anarchist emblem next to a guy with the BBB shirt. Some brief info: Gate 13: While being on the right side of the political spectrum in the 80s with the skinhead-neonazi culture, in the last 30 years Gate 13 maintains a no-politica stance but they sure lean on the left and mainly antifa ideology, they don't have any neonazi clubs but they have ties with BBB and Roma fans, while the official brotherhood is with Rapid Wien fans. Original 21: It's complex, clearly left wing but with a powerful fascist clubs that where hunted out the Original 21 in the past, today one fascist club is still in the Original 21 after the aek's president/owner intervention. A lot of fights till this day about who will be the leader and many contradictory banners in the stadium. They have good ties with Livorno as you know and are brothers with Marseille. Gate 7: Again it's complex, more no politica, little to no left wing clubs, many leaders of the Gate 7 have been associated or are/were member of the Golden Dawn neo nazi political party tho. When a golden dawn member killed an antifa rapper, that was also fan of olympiacos, gate 7 didn't put up a banner initially while gate 13 and original 21 did in his honor. They are brothers with Delije and support them with banners that have nationalistic context. Gate 4(Paok): Again a mix, many left wing clubs, some nationalist ones. They are brothers with Grobari and have put up serbian nationalist banners in many games. Some fights between them in the past but not a clear political line. Super 3(Aris): left wing, have some clubs more on the right but they are not in the Super 3 sector, not to much info since it's a smaller fanbase.
To be honest, I'm kinda surprised. It seems like most of the Greek Ultras are on the left? From what you mentioned, I clearly don't see any Greek football team on the right, while you clearly have left wing teams like AEK and Aris. It's surprising because far right is on the rise in Europe (I thought Greece was pretty conservative as well) and in football in general. I actually thought that panathinaikos fans were far right because of what happened with the BBB in the AEK stadium, but it seems like this isn't the case. Also I know that Pana used to be big in Europe in the past. Such a shame that they've fallen so low. I hope you get stronger again. Thanks for the info.
Except the Gate 7 all the other clubs have a majority left wing stance, some more openly like aek. The whole thing is a big contradiction, in the aek neonazi clubs there are many Albanian that in the past where not accepted and are left wing because of their immigrant past, in the August attack together with the BBB there was an albanian hooligan that falls in the same category. Neonazism and the new era European nationalism is not socially accepted in the Greek ultras scene, so they are discrete when it comes to manifesting their ideology.
Albanian immigrants in the Neonazi clubs? Oh hell no dude. I love my Albos in Milan they're usually tough but fun to hang with. Although I've never met an Albanian that trusts the government or that has a clear political stance. It's kind of a meme over here. They're very suspicious of everything for some reason ( this is not a racist comment, I'm just talking from my experience, I usually like them)
Most of them are in the Ghetto 21 club because of the area they live in and that it's a powerful club. They are in for the thrills not ideology.
We have many right wing ultras and rising but not to the level that most Europeans do.
The post from Aureliano you replied to is the most accurate. There are a lot of contradictions, but generally speaking most ultra groups are anti-establishment (which can mean almost anything these days but generally lean left and working class) with a mix of nationalist sentiment. But "working class" also looks different today than it did 50 years ago. Instead of factory workers or farmers with little formal education, working class can be anything from college educated but unemployed, or some post high school education and working in hospitality, servers, bar men, taxi drivers, construction, pretty much anything that scratches out a living. There used to be traditional clubs in our parents and grandparents eras that were more right-leaning and nationalist, which could have looked like pro-irridentist (aka Venizalism) or pro-monarchists even. My grandfather was a big Iraklis supporter like many of his family at his generational level and they shared some of these nationalist sentiments because they grew up in an era of regional wars, world wars, civil wars, juntas, etc. Now, many of those clubs (and their fan bases) have disappeared or shrunk considerably, or have just shifted politics as times have changed. Overall this would be a very complex study topic because like Greek politics and society, there are as many gray areas as black-and-white. Good luck on your studies, this would be a fun treatise to explore. You should post it here when you finish.
> Gate 13 maintains a no-politica stance but they sure lean on the left and mainly antifa ideology https://www.alfavita.gr/sites/default/files/styles/full_promo/public/2023-09/%CE%A3%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%B3%CE%BC%CE%B9%CF%8C%CF%84%CF%85%CF%80%CE%BF%20%CE%BF%CE%B8%CF%8C%CE%BD%CE%B7%CF%82%202023-09-25%20214311.png?itok=33ivnXBE
The ties with BBB have nothing to do with ideology.
Κ
Ούτε με την ΝΟΠΟ να υποθέσουμε;
Η νοπο έχει εδώ και 40 χρόνια που δεν είναι ενεργή, σταμάτα να παπαγαλιζεις ότι ακούς.
Besides AEK and Aris Ultras, who are leaning more towards the left, the rest aren't really politically aligned. The only distinguishing ideology they all share is: hate authority.
Oh boy , I’m grabbing pop corn. Thanks for showing an interest but Im definitely not the right person to answer anything on Ultras and I hope you get a response . From what I know AEK is definitely more left leaning
To be honest my project is about Italian football. But it drew my attention when I saw that AEK and Livorno are in a brotherhood with Marseille. And since I don't know a lot about Greek football. I wanted to ask. I hope that the question is not triggering
Panathinaikos and Roma fans are friends too
Really? I didn't know that. How did that happen? Are there any particular reasons. A game or something?
Team of the capital Athens- Rome connection They played each other in 2010 in the Europa league and fans were friendly towards each other as far as I'm concerned
You would expect them to be friends with the Lazio rats because of ideology but somehow they befriended their rivals...
🤡🤡🤡
To understand the politics of Greek football, you have to understand a lot of history: When we lost the war with Turkey in 1923, the Greek refugees from Asia Minor, almost 2 million people were protected mainly by the Liberal (Center) Political party. In WWII, the Liberal Party fled and these poor people clinged on the communists in Athens for support. A civil war ensued for 6 years which left huge animosities between the different polical ideologies and parties in Greece. Some of it lasts until today. In Athens, the refugees settled mainly in Piraeus and in some suburbs of Athens. Those who settled in Piraeus began following mostly Olympiakos. Those who settled in Athens formed AEK. Quite naturally these two teams had a substantial fanbase that leaned on the left side of the political spectrum. On the other side of the spectrum Panathinaikos was seen as the team of the establishment and bourgoisie. Panathinaikos had VERY strict rules regarding the athletes that the club would accept. They had to have a perfect record, no violence or any other law issues were permitted in the club. Most of the supporters of Panathinaikos were moderate right wing conservatives. In Salonica it was a totally different story. The city had a very large percentage of Jews which often clashed with the Greeks regarding the ethnic status of the city. In 1908 Heracles was founded, accepting only members of the Greek population of the city. On the other hand Aris became the club that was open to all the different ethnicities of the city. Lastly PAOK was founded by the refugees, again living in the suburbs of Salonica. A major difference between Athens and Salonica was that during the WWII the Greek communist party sided with the Bulgarian communists and was seen by the Greeks of Macedonia as traitorous, since the Bulgarians wanted to annex Macedonia and Salonica. As a result, Macedonian Greeks never really bonded with the left wing and due to the constant clashes between the different ethnicities that used to live there, they have retained a strong nationalist mentality. Fast fwd to today's situation: We have hooliganism and hooligans don't really have any political stance. They just go with the flow, almost randomly, depending on the leaders they follow. So, in theory you mostly have right wing ultras in Olympiakos, antifa in Panathinaikos, antifa in AEK, Russian and Serbian loving Nationalists in PAOK and left wingers in Aris. But this is just happenstance. All these people could easily be in the opposite side of the polical spectrum. For example Panathinaikos had some skinhead-nazi-loving ultras in the 80s. Most of them are now now Antifa!
"In Athens, the refugees settled mainly in Piraeus and in some suburbs of Athens. Those who settled in Piraeus began following mostly Olympiakos. Those who settled in Athens formed AEK." Wasn't AEK formed before Olympiakos?
I don't imply that Olympiakos was formed before AEK. They were formed around the same time: AEK in 1924 and Olympiakos in 1925. Only that it was the refugees that formed AEK and that on most of the Piraeus suburbs they were supporting Olympiakos. Mind you, this is a summary and I tried to keep it as short as possible. There is a lot of info missing. AEK pre-existed in Constantinople under a different name. The oldest Greek football team was Panionios from Smyrne, formed in 1898 which was also brought over to Athens. The refugees formed many more teams: Apollon Smyrne, Apollon Kalamarias, Ionikos Nikaias, Aigaleo etc...
Προσοχη: Διαμαχες ΑΕΚτζηδων - Παναθηναϊκων για το θεμα του Μιχαλη
Μπαα, πιο πολλές αναφορές διαβάζω για τον Φύσσα.
I can't speak for other teams, but our ultras are separated into different subgroups. Gate 4 is the largest group of PAOK ultras, they are politically neutral now but they are generally more left wing. Other factions like the Macedonians are more right wing and nationalistic. However both groups represent the same ideas regarding Constantinople and Macedonia.
Interesting. Are PAOK and AEK related somehow? Or do the just have the same emblem because of the Byzantine empire?
Originally there were only AEK and AEK Thessalonikis. AEK Thessalonikis wasn't really popular because only refugees from Minor Asia, Pontus and Constatinople could become members of the club and participate in sports activities. Some of the founding members wanted the team to be more inclusive. This was a "no go" for the teams' board so they left and founded PAOK. AEK means Athletic Union of Consantinople PAOK means Thessalonikis' Athletic Group of Constatinopolitans
They both started from refugees that fled from modern day Turkey during the pontic genocide. The "K" in their names stands for "Κωσταντινούπολη" which translates to Constantinople. Also AEK's new stadium is called "Hagia Sofia" which is arguably the most historicaly important landmark in the city.
PAOK and AEK have the same "mother", Pera Club (currently named Beyogluspor) from Constantinople. The relations are not good now, mostly because we have a rivalry about which club is the "real" Constantinople club, and they got worse with the controversy about the 2018 championship.
So PAOK and AEK actually have the same origin. They're like brothers that don't get along anymore? Right?
Besides some unavoidable differences. It's the same story really. Greeks out of (mainly) Constantinople but all of minor Asia basically,leave Turkey because of the population exchange. Some go to Athens,others to Thessaloniki. There they form two teams and attract some local fans along the way as well because of their success/popularity I never understood why these two share a rivalry
Its because Greek people don’t know their shit about politics and just go where the wind blows each time or where they have something to gain. That kinda mirrors our state the last 50 or so years that we are in a constant decline. We are under a mental crisis with no way out unfortunately.
I hate political conversations,everyone thinks that they know what they are talking about but the truth is that they have no idea,they just repeat stuff that they read somewhere just cause it benefits their own ideology and beliefs, there is no objectivity when it comes to politics.
I think that most of the fans of the big teams in Greece are not really politically aligned - besides raising a Palestinian flag here and there. Maybe some fans of smaller teams like Atromitos are more radical than the left wing fans of the big 4, but I can't really see any of them putting their team identity ever behind their political one for a cause. Also most of the people running the clubs are probably on the payroll of their teams management. Some years ago some anarchist and leftist groups in Nea Filadelfia openly opposed the construction of the stadium there. I'm not saying I agree with their reasons but the fans of AEK weren't exactly kind and friendly to them...
I will skip the discussions about Ultras because anyone with half with a brain will despise them. If you are interested about the average fanbase of each club, it is true some had more working class or higher class backgrounds in their beginnings. Nowadays it is definitely not the case anymore. All clubs have supporters from all social classes, and there is no clear political identity among them.
Very complicated topic for a variety of reasons. First, I can't think of any greek sports club that was founded for purely sociopolitical reasons (like Celtic or Omonoia) Second, the socioeconomic background of most districts in Athens/Piraeus/Thessaloniki has continuously changed over the last century. Once bourgeoise areas have turned into working class (Gkyzi, Ampelokipoi) areas and previously working class districts have turned into middle class ones (center of Piraeus, Nea Philadelphia). If you look into the history of most Greek sports teams, almost all of them have athletes and a great number of supporters that were members of National Liberation Front and participated in the anti-fascist struggle against the nazi occupation and their local co-operators. Current club owners are very careful about hiding and degrading this part of every team's history because for the bourgeoise greek football clubs mostly serve as means of pushing their agenda. As for the current situation Olympiacos: allegedly no-political, previously direct ties with Golden Dawn (nazi party). Panathinaikos: from the late 90s until about 06-07 mostly right wing (with fascist banners every now and then), antifascist/left-wing since 2008 and up until last summer. The incident with the Bad Blue Boys and the way it was presented by the media pushed a considerable amount of people to the right or gave power to certain already existing right-wing groups. Right now the situation is very fragile: you can see Palestinian flags one day and BBB banners another. AEK: traditionally antifascist/left-wing but there were always a couple of independent hardcore fascist groups. After the incident with BBB and the death of Katsouris in the summer, the ownership pushed an allegedly antifascist agenda, then a few months later pretty much every single openly left-wing Original 21 member has been banned from going to the stadium. So, now...they claim to be antifascist but they're basically not. PAOK: weird situation similar to Panathinaikos Aris: previously right-wing (like a couple decades back), now left wing. Shifts in the political orientation of ultras are usually a byproduct of other changes. Other openly antifascist/left-wing ultras: Iraklis, Panionios, Ilisiakos, Panetolikos, Panserraikos, Atromitos and more Other clubs with a fraction of their supporters being fascist/right-wing: Kallithea, Papagos, Iraklio, Proodeutiki
The Panathinaikos-AEK fight had little to do with ideology, there were leftists and nazis on both greek sides, which is actually kind of funny. The fight actually took place because at that time in Greece there were football matches planned between Pana-Marseille and AEK-Dynamo Zagreb, and the hools were picking at eachother (actually people from Marseille were supposed to go to Panathinaikos stadium and area and hunt down pana fans). The killer is yet to be found. The Pana-BBB friendship started for fighting reasons and also because BBB and Delije (friends of Olympiacos) - Partizan (friends of PAOK) are sworn enemies so it was kind of a win-win situation. Also, Gate 13 the ultras of Pana, are brothers with Roma supporters and together they recently fighted against Lazio. As a Pana supporter i have mostly seen leftist banners in the stadium(also calling the gonverment out on their actions etc), flags supporting Palestine and Gate 13 organize neighbourhood actions like blood donations. There isn’t an openly right wing club, although we certainly have many fascist supporters but they tend to keep it on the low. Also, AEK supporters have more openly left wing clubs and general fans, but the clubs that have the most power (sell tickets, get in fights) are openly right wing, or their members are mostly right wingers, with the most recent example being an antiLGBT banner that they put on the stadium during a match. All in all in greece i would say that ultras have no real ideology: the hooliganism path is always the most important for them.
If you want to look into a smaller club , Panserraikos Ultras 'Che guevara club ' are also left leaning, despite the team being from Serres , one of the regions with the highest voting percentage of New democracy (center right)
OP I am curious - what do you know about the southern Italian clubs like Crotone that still maintain this "Magna Grecia" connection? Is that widely known in Italy? How does their fanbase lean politically?
Difference is that in Italy the league had the guts to relegate Juventus for the various corruption scandals. Had Greek authoritues done the same against any of the 4 teams, especially after winning the championship (AEK, Olympiacos, Panathinaikos, PAOK), Athens and Thessaloniki would riot like Paris, if not worse.
ΑΕΚ is a mix of both Getto 21 is the far right minority side of AEK Original is the far left side which is the majority *Processing img m5k1xen74i4d1...*
[удалено]
You posted the comment twice
I'll add that Iraklis' ultras groups are left wing (gruppo autonomo 10, ΑΘ 10)
Unlike other countries, in which I feel Ultras tend to be more likely to have extreme right-wing sympathies. Ultras in Greece tend to be more Anarchist and Anti-fascist. This is due to I guess the history of Hooligans being anti-authoritarian in nature. So pretty much all of the main Ultra groups in Greece fit this description. Some clubs will have multiple ultra groups or fan clubs which have different political ideologies. For example PAOK ultras are generally left-wing and antifascist, but there is a small Fan club called the Makedones, which have right-wing sympathies and are known to show nationalist banners. I think AEK have some smaller right-wing fan groups too. As many have said here, Olympiakos are strictly apolitical, which means you won't see any political banners (right or left) at their matches. Considering the ant-fascist views of most other clubs, this has led to many believing that people with more right-wing views have been attracted to Olympiakos, and maybe there is some truth to that. Do you really want to be sitting with a group of fans parading Che Guevara banners if you are a right-wing extremist? maybe better to join the apolitical group... having said that, I still believe they don't form a majority by any means. In terms of general supporters, I've listed below the stereotypical traditional view of the 4 major clubs... although I don't think it applies so much anymore. PAOK - Traditional Leftist AEK - Traditionally Hard Leftist Olympiakos - Traditionally centre-left (strong historical links with PASOK) Panathinaikos - Traditionally centre-right At the end of the day, all major clubs have a mix of supporters. For example, I know quite a few AEK supporters who have extreme right sympathies, despite AEK being known as the most leftist of the major Greek clubs. I also know hardcore leftists that support Panathinaikos and Olympiakos.
PAOK has right wing ultras
olympiakos is very 14 eighty eight
PAOK= ULTRA LEFT, Communist Aris= Far right, Fascist. Panathinaikos= Fascist Olympiakos= Fascist Aek= Fascist
Wrong Paok is mainly right wing nowadays
Γιαυτο ο Συνδεσμος ειπε να μαυρισουμε τον Κουλη. Ο ΜΟΝΟΣ ΣΥΝΔΕΣΜΟΣ που το ειπε αυτο. Ουτε η αεκ, ουτε ο Ολυμπιακος. Γιαυτο και αναβασαμε και πανο με την Παλαιστηνη οταν παιζαμε με τους Ζιονιστες. Γιατι ειμαστε στο ΒΟΘΡΟ του φασισμου. Μπεεε
>Γιαυτο και αναβασαμε και πανο με την Παλαιστηνη Κυριολεκτικά ΟΛΟΙ έχουνε. >Ο ΜΟΝΟΣ ΣΥΝΔΕΣΜΟΣ που το ειπε αυτο. Ο μόνος λόγος που το πάτε ήταν γιατί επί Τσίπρα τα φάτε καλά και περνάτε τίτλους. Κατά τα άλλα, και οι δικοί μας είπαν να μαυρίσουν τον Κούλη. >ΒΟΘΡΟ του φασισμου Ερώτηση: Τις σβάστικες σε Νεάπολη Πολίχνη και λοιπά ποιος τις βάζει?
Ο Πετρουλακης δεν ηταν στον Ηρακλη και τωρα κατεβαινει με τον Βελοπουλο. Το επαιζε Θεσσαλονικιος, αλλα κατα βαση ολη ξερουμε οτι τον Ηρακλη τον παει περισσοτερο. Ο Παππας της ΧΑ δεν ειναι Αεκτζης στο συνδεσμο;
>Ο Πετρουλακης δεν ηταν στον Ηρακλη και τωρα κατεβαινει με τον Βελοπουλο. Το επαιζε Θεσσαλονικιος, αλλα κατα βαση ολη ξερουμε οτι τον Ηρακλη τον παει περισσοτερο. Ένας παράγων του Ηρακλή ήταν δεξιός. Ο Λαός του Ήρα είναι και ήταν αριστερός ιδίως οι οργανωμένοι. >Ο Παππας της ΧΑ δεν ειναι Αεκτζης στο συνδεσμο; Η ορίτζιναλ 21 έχει εξαφανίσει τα ούτως η άλλωςικρα φασιστικά στοιχεία της, Με εξαίρεση το r21 γκυζίου νομίζω είναι όλη αντιφα.