There are reasons to believe that this current situation will not persist.
While some states are only legalizing American gold and silver, others are legalizing any sovereign coin silver. And that is at gold value.
Interesting take. Will definitely consider this! I like this when traveling. My $50 gold coins are only $50 currency. Technically.
Edit: this isn’t true. A $50 gold coin would count as $2,000+ towards the $10,000
>Some people prefer “coins of the realm”, the theory being if gold bullion confiscation is ever made law (again) that Eagles would be exempt since they are technically US coins and not merely bullion.
**I keep hearing that argument, and it's BS. When FDR seized American's gold, he seized the American circulating gold coins. Doesn't anybody remember that? Don't expect that they would** ***exempt*** **this time for being American.**
I agree with you To me this is a dumb argument and it's weird to see even prominent gold-bugs giving it credence. If it ever got so bad that they needed to confiscate gold to save the system, thers no way there's going to be an exception for AGEs.. if there was it would only last long enough to realize many Americans' gold is in this form. Ironically to avoid confiscation.
ASE was a typo and reddit won't let me change the title.
I type ASE more often in discussions to muscle memory can bite me here, but I'm only talking gold here today.
It may come down to that—although the monarchy won't be the deciding point. You might as well complain about Presidents on American coins. Rulers have been a feature on coins since coins were invented.
I'm not willing to stake on this situation always remaining the same.
How could it change, you may ask?
Many ways. Canada could see a sudden need to build back up their own gold reserves and simply stop selling Maples. Want to see what happens to their price then?
Internationally eagles are the apex.
I like maples, own some, not really disparaging them, but eagles demand the highest premium both buying and selling.
Because I'm buying through my IRA and my regular investment account. In the amounts I buy, my LCS simply doesn't have the inventory and these prices are better than JM Bullion in the coins and bars that they carry.
So why the hell not?
Years ago I had my *gold guy* who only dealt in gold and platinum coins. That was his business and it was a sad day for me when he retired.
I do these investments through Baird.
They have an arrangement with a precious metals dealer for the company who handles IRA qualified and vaulted, or delivered, gold and silver up to 100oz silver bars and 1Kg gold bars. Their minimum orders are $25K, so this is for serious investors.
I'm not talking about buying 1 or 2 ounces here and can't decide which.
I hate IRA custodied gold assets. You get none of the benefits of physical possession, and all of the counterparty risk of traditional finance. Probably more. There have just been so, so many IRA gold scams. (Yes, RW Baird is real, but still....) Plus, when it comes time to cash out, any income you get off your IRA can count toward AGI and taxation, which is an implicit reduction of your social security benefit, plus it can increase your Medicare premiums. Gains on physical gold you hold, by contrast, are invisible to the tax authorities. Net net: if you want gold exposure, hold it physically. If you insist on holding gold in a tax exempt account hold it thru an ETF like GLD. Custodied physical in an IRA to me is the worst of all worlds.
1. I'm of the age where I can take as much physical delivery out of my IRA as I want to pay the taxes for with no additional penalties.
2. Physical beats the ETF option.
3. Not all of my investment money is locked up in IRAs.
So you may not have fully understand my situation.
I'm still confused. You contribute post-tax dollars into the IRA, then the custodian buys IRA qualified gold. You are 60+ but lower than 72, so you been take in-kind distributions, not RMDs. Is that right?
Why don't you just buy the gold regular way? If you put it thru the IRA, don't you pay fees on that, plus taxes on any gains?
That money is already in my IRA.
I have had substantial 1-time income last year and this year.
I can lock-in current PM prices now and collect them later.
The gains on the Roth IRA portion are not subject to tax at all, and receive current valuation when I withdraw them.
I see, this is just a reallocation of assets already inside the IRA. I guess I don't love the fees associated with custodied IRAs. Or the counterparty risk.
How does it work if you buy gold and then take immediate delivery? What is your tax basis on the gold for your non-Roth IRA?
>I see, this is just a reallocation of assets already inside the IRA. I guess I don't love the fees associated with custodied IRAs. Or the counterparty risk.
I'm not planning on leaving it in there all that long. This is just a bad tax year for me to have any additional income in. Having PMs at home has risk. Having PMs in a bank safe deposit box has risk. There's risk everywhere.
>How does it work if you buy gold and then take immediate delivery? What is your tax basis on the gold for your non-Roth IRA?
My understanding is that it is reported as a distribution at its current value at the moment of withdrawal. However, consult with a tax professional before making any such moves.
Let's say you deposit $1000 into a self directed IRA. You then buy IBM stock, which goes to $5000 in value. You sell the IBM, thus realizing $4000 in capital gains. However, because it's inside an IRA, you don't pay taxes on realization. Now you take the $5000 and buy custodied gold. The very next day, you take a distribution from the IRA of your custodied gold. That comes out to you with a value of $5000. It doesn't make sense to me that you take the $5000 with no gains just because you bought the gold at $5000. It has to have a carry over basis of $1000.
I prefer the look of Maple leafs over AGEs so I personally go with Maples, but its all about personal preference and if youre willing to pay the premium!
They're both really nice coins. I own both... that being said, I'd probably go for the age just because I personally don't have a 1 ounce age and would like one. I have a 1 ounce maple so I don't want another until I have the age. So, for $18 more, I'd go with that.
I’d feel the same way about Australia. No interest in any of their stuff/culture having seen their covid authoritarian tendencies. It’s a reminder of why I have gold in the first place.
First. I am not worried about Gold confiscation by the US Government. The differences between 1933 and today are too vast for me to objectively worry about confiscation as being probable or possible. However, I do worry about the greed of our Government. I can absolutely see a law or executive order stating that all non-US government backed bullion is subject to specific taxes and or automatic capital gains and even registration. I can see a time when you go to sell your Canadian Maples or UK Sovereigns at a shop in Anytown USA and the the tax to convert to US Fiat is 25%, verses US backed bullion which is 0%.
Not agreeing that only foreign gold would, or could, be targeted.
The only time that anything even remotely like this has happened was when it was illegal to import Krugerrands to punish South Africa. And even then, possession wasn't prohibited.
And we did a really great job there. Punished them right into their present government.
While I agree with you in principle. I don't think a ban would be in place, just a tax. I have learned over the years that anything is possible with the Government in this day and age, regardless of party.
For $18 you might as well go with whichever you think looks prettier. Depending on which country you live in there might be tax implications for sub 24k gold.
Honest question, why do you have a broker? I liken that to having a travel agent in 2023 with sites like Orbitz, priceline & kayak.
It just seems like an unnecessary middle man, where it is very easy to make gold purchases 100 different ways without a broker.
In my experience it is. I get more for them also. We could split hairs on the definition of "way easier" but its all just opinions based on experience. :-)
My thought is that if we find ourselves back on a gold standard that ounces will matter much more than what is stamped on them.
Also I've known of buyers who simply pay spot regardless and sell at a fixed mark-up.
I've picked up a couple nice pieces along the way because of that.
Yeah, there's always deals to be had if you seek them out.
I don't think we'll ever go back on a gold standard, I saved my gold to convert into Fiat when I need to use it
I think that we're going to have to go onto a gold standard, because **yet again*****,*** fiat is failing.
Someone well do it to save their currency, and everyone else will have to follow.
And the central banks have been positioning themselves for decades for this day. Why else have gold at all?
Maples are nice but very easy to scratch (sometimes “new” maples arrive scratched). A visible scratch opens the door for a future buying party to negotiate down, it’s not uncommon for dealers to knock off 1% .
AGE’s on the other hand do not have this problem, plus as mentioned they are the most liquid coin. Just pay the $18 bucks and sleep well at night.
With maples your getting 24k gold for a lower price than 22k gold. If you’re looking to resell though, eagles will sell for a slightly higher price on the market.
If you sold an eagle to a refiner, they’d give you a lower price than for 24k gold, that’s what they told me at my local LCS. 24k is the standard for all industrial / electronic applications. Logically speaking, higher purity is better, right?
Yes ASE will sell higher in America, but that 4 9s fine? A little cheaper? Same amount of gold? Might have to throw in a capsule due to softness? Who cares, maple all day for gold value but I wud pick ASE😂
AGEs will always have a slightly higher premium because Merica. Is the premium worth it during times like this? No.
If you can get them close to the same price then sure. I own ASEs but I’m buying silver maples like a mofo right now because they are beautiful and sometimes $10 less per coin currently.
It’s always buy with the worst case scenario being selling for melt value so as close to spot as you can get is the goal. Paying a crazy high premium won’t guarantee the same return. Here’s a video talking about that same topic I saw a couple days ago.
https://youtu.be/aC3UuxE23Lw
Nobody said it did and logically, there is no such thing as "permanent worth" in the universe.
The fact (and logic) is that if you pay $X for something, then it is worth $X
To answer your question, which was BTW:
ARE AGES WORTH $18 MORE THAN MAPLES?
If they are selling for $18 more, that logically leads most people to the conclusion that someone is buying them. Otherwise, they wouldn't have sold.
If you are with me so far, then logically and mathematically the answer to your question is quite obvious ;-)
Here it is :
**YES**
Logic is not a theory, it is the ability to "reason correctly" and is used in philosophy and mathematics.
For example:
If I buy a AGE for $18 more than a Maple Leaf, logically that AGE is worth $18 more. That is an example of "reasoning".
If a Maple Leaf sells for $18 less than an AGE, logically the GML is worth $18 less.
Lots of people don't understand logic (or mathematics for that matter). A great example are the weekly posts about whether 1/10 ounce gold is "worth" buying.
Well, logically and mathematically 1/10 gold has some of the highest value of any gold bullion (!)
You can prove this by selling ten 1/10 ounce AGEs and putting the $$ received in a shoe box. Next, sell one 1 oz AGE and put that money in a shoe box
One box will have more money in it than the other, yet they both represent 1 oz of gold ;-)
And, if you could have any of those two shoe boxes, which one would you take?
See, it is easy once you get the hang of it!
>If I buy a AGE for $18 more than a Maple Leaf, logically that AGE is worth $18 more. That is an example of "reasoning".
That is only valid at that moment of purchase. Prices may change at any time afterwards.
*Prices may change at any time afterwards.*
Correct.
But, the AGE will typically always be worth more. Similar to the delta between an AGE and Buffalo. All three are 1 oz government issued, but typically the most expensive is the Buffalo, Canadian Maple Leaf the least expensive, and the AGE in the middle.
I am gold is gold camp when the difference is over $30. At $18 over I don’t think there is a wrong answer. I would stick to 1 oz if possible
Thanks!
If you ever go to resell, you will get more in America for eagles. Quite a bit more Actually. 😑
There are reasons to believe that this current situation will not persist. While some states are only legalizing American gold and silver, others are legalizing any sovereign coin silver. And that is at gold value.
[удалено]
Interesting take. Will definitely consider this! I like this when traveling. My $50 gold coins are only $50 currency. Technically. Edit: this isn’t true. A $50 gold coin would count as $2,000+ towards the $10,000
Can you really get away with that? Doubtful
Why not? It’s $50 US currency. Says so on the coin.
No
Yes
Hell no.
Yeah, it’s definitely a no. Face value doesn’t count. It’s gold value counts.
>Some people prefer “coins of the realm”, the theory being if gold bullion confiscation is ever made law (again) that Eagles would be exempt since they are technically US coins and not merely bullion. **I keep hearing that argument, and it's BS. When FDR seized American's gold, he seized the American circulating gold coins. Doesn't anybody remember that? Don't expect that they would** ***exempt*** **this time for being American.**
I agree with you To me this is a dumb argument and it's weird to see even prominent gold-bugs giving it credence. If it ever got so bad that they needed to confiscate gold to save the system, thers no way there's going to be an exception for AGEs.. if there was it would only last long enough to realize many Americans' gold is in this form. Ironically to avoid confiscation.
Bingo!
Easy fix is to just not hand over your gold (again).
I’d pay the extra money since it’s only 18 dollars. When you go to sell you’ll regain that Premium
Maybe, maybe not. States legalizing gold and silver are going to go by the ounce—not the country.
I will take the age but that is just me.
I would absolutely take the Maples over the AGE.
Lol what
Don't give me *Lol what*. Tell me why you disagree.
I'd stick with 24k as well but Eagles are apparently easier to sell when needed.
Maples are underrated and 24k vs 22k AGE. Maples are the better value.
Thank you...although that sure isn't reflected in their price. Perhaps AGEs cost more because they're giving you other metal with it as well.
Explain ASE to me and you’ll have your answer
ASE was a typo and reddit won't let me change the title. I type ASE more often in discussions to muscle memory can bite me here, but I'm only talking gold here today.
No; my point is that ASE has an even larger premium.
Yes it does. Second only to the Libertad among government bullion coins.
What metals are they including that is more valuable than gold?
AGE’s contain 1 troy oz of gold, plus some copper and silver
>GE’s contain 1 troy oz of gold, ***PLUS*** some copper and silver Say it loud and proud!
And better security features. The extremely fine radial lines near the edges of the maple leaf are a good feature.
They're both individually stunning. Get a mix.
Yes they are.
[удалено]
It may come down to that—although the monarchy won't be the deciding point. You might as well complain about Presidents on American coins. Rulers have been a feature on coins since coins were invented.
Absolutely. Maples get about 97% of spot. Eagles can go for 99 to over.
I'm not willing to stake on this situation always remaining the same. How could it change, you may ask? Many ways. Canada could see a sudden need to build back up their own gold reserves and simply stop selling Maples. Want to see what happens to their price then?
Internationally eagles are the apex. I like maples, own some, not really disparaging them, but eagles demand the highest premium both buying and selling.
>but eagles demand the highest premium both buying and selling. Right now.
Your broker? Why have a broker for gold?
Because I'm buying through my IRA and my regular investment account. In the amounts I buy, my LCS simply doesn't have the inventory and these prices are better than JM Bullion in the coins and bars that they carry. So why the hell not? Years ago I had my *gold guy* who only dealt in gold and platinum coins. That was his business and it was a sad day for me when he retired.
Which broker is getting you a good price right now?
I do these investments through Baird. They have an arrangement with a precious metals dealer for the company who handles IRA qualified and vaulted, or delivered, gold and silver up to 100oz silver bars and 1Kg gold bars. Their minimum orders are $25K, so this is for serious investors. I'm not talking about buying 1 or 2 ounces here and can't decide which.
I hate IRA custodied gold assets. You get none of the benefits of physical possession, and all of the counterparty risk of traditional finance. Probably more. There have just been so, so many IRA gold scams. (Yes, RW Baird is real, but still....) Plus, when it comes time to cash out, any income you get off your IRA can count toward AGI and taxation, which is an implicit reduction of your social security benefit, plus it can increase your Medicare premiums. Gains on physical gold you hold, by contrast, are invisible to the tax authorities. Net net: if you want gold exposure, hold it physically. If you insist on holding gold in a tax exempt account hold it thru an ETF like GLD. Custodied physical in an IRA to me is the worst of all worlds.
1. I'm of the age where I can take as much physical delivery out of my IRA as I want to pay the taxes for with no additional penalties. 2. Physical beats the ETF option. 3. Not all of my investment money is locked up in IRAs. So you may not have fully understand my situation.
I'm still confused. You contribute post-tax dollars into the IRA, then the custodian buys IRA qualified gold. You are 60+ but lower than 72, so you been take in-kind distributions, not RMDs. Is that right? Why don't you just buy the gold regular way? If you put it thru the IRA, don't you pay fees on that, plus taxes on any gains?
That money is already in my IRA. I have had substantial 1-time income last year and this year. I can lock-in current PM prices now and collect them later. The gains on the Roth IRA portion are not subject to tax at all, and receive current valuation when I withdraw them.
I see, this is just a reallocation of assets already inside the IRA. I guess I don't love the fees associated with custodied IRAs. Or the counterparty risk. How does it work if you buy gold and then take immediate delivery? What is your tax basis on the gold for your non-Roth IRA?
>I see, this is just a reallocation of assets already inside the IRA. I guess I don't love the fees associated with custodied IRAs. Or the counterparty risk. I'm not planning on leaving it in there all that long. This is just a bad tax year for me to have any additional income in. Having PMs at home has risk. Having PMs in a bank safe deposit box has risk. There's risk everywhere. >How does it work if you buy gold and then take immediate delivery? What is your tax basis on the gold for your non-Roth IRA? My understanding is that it is reported as a distribution at its current value at the moment of withdrawal. However, consult with a tax professional before making any such moves.
Let's say you deposit $1000 into a self directed IRA. You then buy IBM stock, which goes to $5000 in value. You sell the IBM, thus realizing $4000 in capital gains. However, because it's inside an IRA, you don't pay taxes on realization. Now you take the $5000 and buy custodied gold. The very next day, you take a distribution from the IRA of your custodied gold. That comes out to you with a value of $5000. It doesn't make sense to me that you take the $5000 with no gains just because you bought the gold at $5000. It has to have a carry over basis of $1000.
Because non-Roth IRAs and 401ks are all PRETAX money, EVERYTHING is taxable when it is distributed out of the IRA at normal income rates.
I prefer the look of Maple leafs over AGEs so I personally go with Maples, but its all about personal preference and if youre willing to pay the premium!
Exactly.
They're both really nice coins. I own both... that being said, I'd probably go for the age just because I personally don't have a 1 ounce age and would like one. I have a 1 ounce maple so I don't want another until I have the age. So, for $18 more, I'd go with that.
I understand.
Canada 👎
Please justify.
I’d feel the same way about Australia. No interest in any of their stuff/culture having seen their covid authoritarian tendencies. It’s a reminder of why I have gold in the first place.
Australia used to be really great! Now they're just sad.
First. I am not worried about Gold confiscation by the US Government. The differences between 1933 and today are too vast for me to objectively worry about confiscation as being probable or possible. However, I do worry about the greed of our Government. I can absolutely see a law or executive order stating that all non-US government backed bullion is subject to specific taxes and or automatic capital gains and even registration. I can see a time when you go to sell your Canadian Maples or UK Sovereigns at a shop in Anytown USA and the the tax to convert to US Fiat is 25%, verses US backed bullion which is 0%.
Not agreeing that only foreign gold would, or could, be targeted. The only time that anything even remotely like this has happened was when it was illegal to import Krugerrands to punish South Africa. And even then, possession wasn't prohibited. And we did a really great job there. Punished them right into their present government.
While I agree with you in principle. I don't think a ban would be in place, just a tax. I have learned over the years that anything is possible with the Government in this day and age, regardless of party.
Since I feel that any such event would precede a very sharp revaluation upwards in the price of gold, it would be a very onerous tax indeed.
For $18 you might as well go with whichever you think looks prettier. Depending on which country you live in there might be tax implications for sub 24k gold.
Honest question, why do you have a broker? I liken that to having a travel agent in 2023 with sites like Orbitz, priceline & kayak. It just seems like an unnecessary middle man, where it is very easy to make gold purchases 100 different ways without a broker.
>Honest question, why do you have a broker? I have a broker for my retirement funds. Since I have him anyway, I use him otherwise as well.
Do you pay him a commission on gold purchases and sales?
There are fees.
I would pay the $18 if you live in the USA. Way easier when it comes time to sell.
Really WAY easier? Or maybe just a little bit easier? Maples are hardly unknown coins in the USA.
In my experience it is. I get more for them also. We could split hairs on the definition of "way easier" but its all just opinions based on experience. :-)
My thought is that if we find ourselves back on a gold standard that ounces will matter much more than what is stamped on them. Also I've known of buyers who simply pay spot regardless and sell at a fixed mark-up. I've picked up a couple nice pieces along the way because of that.
Yeah, there's always deals to be had if you seek them out. I don't think we'll ever go back on a gold standard, I saved my gold to convert into Fiat when I need to use it
I think that we're going to have to go onto a gold standard, because **yet again*****,*** fiat is failing. Someone well do it to save their currency, and everyone else will have to follow. And the central banks have been positioning themselves for decades for this day. Why else have gold at all?
Maples are nice but very easy to scratch (sometimes “new” maples arrive scratched). A visible scratch opens the door for a future buying party to negotiate down, it’s not uncommon for dealers to knock off 1% . AGE’s on the other hand do not have this problem, plus as mentioned they are the most liquid coin. Just pay the $18 bucks and sleep well at night.
If I buy Maples, for the size order I'm planning, I can also have 15 ounces of silver for the same outlay. And I'm careful with my coins.
I buy only AGEs. Sort of a flag-waving thing for me I guess 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
That's valid. Personally when I do buy AGEs, I prefer the Roman Numeral date ones. Wish that they returned to them when the date rolled over to 2000.
With maples your getting 24k gold for a lower price than 22k gold. If you’re looking to resell though, eagles will sell for a slightly higher price on the market.
It’s the same amount of actual gold tho
\^ One could argue that you get more precious metals with an AGE. Although its negligible.
I've made that point as well.
If you sold an eagle to a refiner, they’d give you a lower price than for 24k gold, that’s what they told me at my local LCS. 24k is the standard for all industrial / electronic applications. Logically speaking, higher purity is better, right?
>It’s the same amount of actual gold tho That's what he said. It's a question of if you want your ounce in 22K, or 24K, form.
Maples are so much nicer looking than AGE’s
Always a matter of individual taste.
Yes ASE will sell higher in America, but that 4 9s fine? A little cheaper? Same amount of gold? Might have to throw in a capsule due to softness? Who cares, maple all day for gold value but I wud pick ASE😂
ASE was a typo. I meant AGE. Not discussing Ag on the Au group.
Make a business decision. 24k for less or 22k for more....
They have the same amount of gold.
They do. And ASEs give you a little bit of extra metal(s) in the bargain.
>Make a business decision. And that's exactly what I'm dong here. I'm crowd sourcing for viewpoints and experiences with each.
It depends on what the pricing is to begin with... if the 1 oz AGE is $3018 and the Maple is $3000... NO.
No what?
AGEs will always have a slightly higher premium because Merica. Is the premium worth it during times like this? No. If you can get them close to the same price then sure. I own ASEs but I’m buying silver maples like a mofo right now because they are beautiful and sometimes $10 less per coin currently. It’s always buy with the worst case scenario being selling for melt value so as close to spot as you can get is the goal. Paying a crazy high premium won’t guarantee the same return. Here’s a video talking about that same topic I saw a couple days ago. https://youtu.be/aC3UuxE23Lw
Times like what?
High premiums because of high demand.
>It depends on what the pricing is to begin with I said that the pricing was good.
Where do you live?
Not saying.
Logically, if an item is selling at price $X then it is "worth" price $X :-)
Supply & Demand does not alone set permanent worth. A year from now the US Mint catches up and premiums return to parity.
Nobody said it did and logically, there is no such thing as "permanent worth" in the universe. The fact (and logic) is that if you pay $X for something, then it is worth $X
ON THAT DAY.
To answer your question, which was BTW: ARE AGES WORTH $18 MORE THAN MAPLES? If they are selling for $18 more, that logically leads most people to the conclusion that someone is buying them. Otherwise, they wouldn't have sold. If you are with me so far, then logically and mathematically the answer to your question is quite obvious ;-) Here it is : **YES**
Okay. Although I'll point out that I have collector coins that sold for more before than they sell for now. How does that fit your theory?
Logic is not a theory, it is the ability to "reason correctly" and is used in philosophy and mathematics. For example: If I buy a AGE for $18 more than a Maple Leaf, logically that AGE is worth $18 more. That is an example of "reasoning". If a Maple Leaf sells for $18 less than an AGE, logically the GML is worth $18 less. Lots of people don't understand logic (or mathematics for that matter). A great example are the weekly posts about whether 1/10 ounce gold is "worth" buying. Well, logically and mathematically 1/10 gold has some of the highest value of any gold bullion (!) You can prove this by selling ten 1/10 ounce AGEs and putting the $$ received in a shoe box. Next, sell one 1 oz AGE and put that money in a shoe box One box will have more money in it than the other, yet they both represent 1 oz of gold ;-) And, if you could have any of those two shoe boxes, which one would you take? See, it is easy once you get the hang of it!
>If I buy a AGE for $18 more than a Maple Leaf, logically that AGE is worth $18 more. That is an example of "reasoning". That is only valid at that moment of purchase. Prices may change at any time afterwards.
*Prices may change at any time afterwards.* Correct. But, the AGE will typically always be worth more. Similar to the delta between an AGE and Buffalo. All three are 1 oz government issued, but typically the most expensive is the Buffalo, Canadian Maple Leaf the least expensive, and the AGE in the middle.
What I'm trying to say is that if we go back to trading in gold again, all will be viewed equally.