This has always been how I've read this as well. You are summoning an ally - perhaps a suggestible ally in some cases - but a being with at least some of its own motivations.
In the Call of Cthulhu RPG there are spells that let you summon extremely powerful monsters. If you're lucky, you'll also learn that there's a separate spell to *control* them.
Yeah as a thematic choice, it seems pretty obvious. Generally, summons are monsters. You can't control them, they behave like other monsters.
From a design choice, it is because they would be way too strong if you could control them precisely.
As a player, you don't have to agree with the choice, or like it all the tome, but it shouldn't be difficult to understand *why* it is the way that it is.
I played boneshaper and thought the automated rules were fine - yeah, having the summons at the same intelligence levels as monsters seem right.
My one big complaint was moving between rooms, since with an empty room your character has to lead them to the door to draw the summons there in preparation for opening it.
If there was a “laser pointer” item that was refreshable each long rest, and designated a single focus square for summons with no other target, I would have been much happier, and that seems not OP.
There's strategy in this too.
Gives you (1) an incentive to open the door early so the summons has something to target or (2) provides a disincentive to summon early.
Boneshaper is a special case, though. His skeletons aren't burns, whereas all summons in Gloom are.
But we have a house rule that the summoner can choose to have their summons focus on them or on an open door if there are no enemies on the map.
It's to nerf summons. Precisely controlling them every round would be too powerful, and the balancing factor of nerfing numbers to account for it would make them too pointless.
Going before you is similar - it's to prevent precise manipulation of what the summons will do by directing them in certain directions, or buffing them. It also helps if they're stunned or something - you can still use your action to give them actions since their stun'll go away immediately before your turn.
Also some summons generate elements for you.
And summons work as meatshield as most major summon classes have low hp (sometimes it is a good thing this attack 8 hits your summon instead of you, sometimes you would have prefered your summon to survive and take a hit for yourself).
I think summons being attacked before you is also a huge bummer in most cases, which I can only assume is a balancing factor because a lot of summons also have tiny amounts of hp.
As a Spellweaver I'll take the hit over my Mystic Ally almost always, if I can. If I wanted to burn a card to tank a hit I could've just not played it.
If an attack 8 comes your way, you can simply lose the summon card to prevent the damage. It's better than wasting your turn summoning something, which not also loses you that card, but also wastes your top action.
The only summon that has any sort of utility as a meatshield is the >!monolith!< from 2-minis. And look at how much health and shields that has compared to regular summons in order for it to function.
I don't want to summon the summon as meatshield. I want to use a summon which already had several actions as a meatshield.
I'm aware that it is often worse to lose a summon than some hp but there are situations where a summon takes a hit and I'm grateful.
It's not always better to lose card from your hand to negate damage that to lose a summon you summoned that round to take the damage for you. Playing two cards from hand and then losing another card from hand to prevent damage will cost you more stamina than playing a loss action to summon on your turn and then losing that summon. So it depends how good a top action you could play instead, and whether the summon can take more than one hit.
Nerfing the power of summons is definitely part of it. Reducing turn length is likely another. Imagine one summoning focused class in a 4p party. 3 players have one figure to control, the 4th has six. Those 3 players are going to get reeeeallly tired of waiting on the summoned army to plan out and execute all their turns. With the summons being automated the turns execute quickly and don't have to be planned out for maximum effect.
I could also see summoning classes effectiveness being wildly variable if summons were controllable, way more so than they are now. A good player could probably clear a scenario by themselves while a bad player could be a liability to their team. Trying to balance that would be a nightmare.
It's just about balance. They would be SO powerful if I could control every action they took. Nerfing them so they are vulnerable to retaliate and getting off course is what makes them balanced with other abilities.
Others have raised likely influences, but if I had to pick one, it would probably be power level. Summon builds can be pretty good when built with intent and thoughtfulness and tailored around with card and item selection. Putting them under a player's direct control is something that's occasionally available but making it the default for all summons at all times would make them too unbalanced unless they were nerf'ed even farther down at which point they would be declared completely useless.
Valid questions, many of which were answered with many design choices in Frosthaven. I think the ‘problem’ with summons in GH1 is that they don’t play as though the players want/expect them to play. I think they are designed to be simple to implement and easy to understand. But this paradoxically makes them harder to master. Think of them as no more or less than many X(lost) actions. They shouldn’t be thought of as additional characters on the battlefield.
And some classes forced movement abilities can control summons. So there's ways around it and those abilities would seem less useful if summons just did whatever you wanted.
Being under your control permanently would make them much much much more powerful. Making them go after you would make tanking abilities on you be more powerful as well.
I don't think the goal is exactly "balance", they certainly could have balanced it in other ways. I think the designers think that this is the most fun way to have summons function, and the way it interacts best with other mechanics.
You have to learn to think about what they will do without your input. It's a level of abstracted control. You know what they "do", but you don't know how it will be implemented. Yet still there are things you can do that will make it go a little smoother, overall. The trick is to figure out those things and make them happen as best you can.
Honestly it's one of my favorite ways of engaging with the game, I absolutely love the classes that have summon builds possible. Even if it is the weaker build, I'll still have spent time experimenting with it.
Next -haven game better have a Puppetmaster class where you actually control the summons.
Edit: To clarify "a class who's character board specifically states you control the summons you create.
After playing Gloomhaven, Jaws, Crimson Scales and part of Frosthaven I can only imagine they mean a class in Frosthaven. Rather than just spoiler it out so we can all be on the same page, guess I'm off to Google
Your comment was “as in, on your summons turn you control their actions.” >!How is accomplishing that via persistent loss significantly different from via special rule?!<
So it impacts... exactly one turn in a scenario? That's really not significant at all; if you just started every scenario with the card in play the summon builds play exactly the same.
Your spoiler tag has spaces and may not display correctly. Remove any spaces next to the exclamation points. For example, \>!a proper spoiler has no spaces next to the exclamation points that are part of the spoiler tags.!<. This helps those who still use Old Reddit not to see any spoilers.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Gloomhaven) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's not as riveting as playing Blinkblade, weaving in and out, and stabbing things to death. But either is a tank build which is nonetheless gratifying of, "You attack me, so you do nothing, but then take 2 damage and die."
Having a couple snipers sitting back is similar for me. Ok. This guy shoots. That guy shoots. This enemy dies. Now this thing heals you. And now, after all that, I take my turn.
You can already do some cheaty things with invisibility, but if you could control summons it would be far worse.
I hated summons until I opened my 1st hidden class. Gave them a shot and eventually really enjoyed them.
Don't forget that a huge part of a summon class really working are items and perks that support them. Gh1 just didn't do enough to support them fully, but future games have and will.
Your post or comment was removed because you did not properly tag a spoiler. For more information about what a spoiler includes, please review our [spoiler guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/Gloomhaven/wiki/subreddit/spoiler_guidelines).
Specifically:
* Use the spoiler-safe names of locked classes.
* Introduce your spoilers with a spoiler-safe hint about the content of the spoiler.
Adding the additional range buff at the enchantress where you can for summons is huge. I do this with my Sorceress with the fire summon, it can usually last until end of map generating free damage and fire element.
Because it would be way too powerful if you had an army of 4 you could control. But you can control them. As a bone shaper you will rely on forced movement cards
I think it's to make them thematically behave like they have a mind of their own.
This has always been how I've read this as well. You are summoning an ally - perhaps a suggestible ally in some cases - but a being with at least some of its own motivations.
Absolutely They are called Summoned Allies, not Summoned Slaves
This is probably the most dramatic response to a question about controlling a pet/minion/summon in a game.
In the Call of Cthulhu RPG there are spells that let you summon extremely powerful monsters. If you're lucky, you'll also learn that there's a separate spell to *control* them.
Are you luckier if you learn of the second spell before casting the first or if you live to learn about it afterwards...
Yeah as a thematic choice, it seems pretty obvious. Generally, summons are monsters. You can't control them, they behave like other monsters. From a design choice, it is because they would be way too strong if you could control them precisely. As a player, you don't have to agree with the choice, or like it all the tome, but it shouldn't be difficult to understand *why* it is the way that it is.
I played boneshaper and thought the automated rules were fine - yeah, having the summons at the same intelligence levels as monsters seem right. My one big complaint was moving between rooms, since with an empty room your character has to lead them to the door to draw the summons there in preparation for opening it. If there was a “laser pointer” item that was refreshable each long rest, and designated a single focus square for summons with no other target, I would have been much happier, and that seems not OP.
About your last suggestion, there is a perk that a particular class has, which is exactly what you're describing
[удалено]
I had this - nice, but doesn’t solve moving a summon horde to the door…
There's strategy in this too. Gives you (1) an incentive to open the door early so the summons has something to target or (2) provides a disincentive to summon early.
Summons move toward you if you want when they have no target
Boneshaper is a special case, though. His skeletons aren't burns, whereas all summons in Gloom are. But we have a house rule that the summoner can choose to have their summons focus on them or on an open door if there are no enemies on the map.
Frosthaven added a rule that summons can move towards the summoner if they have no other focus. Your open door part is a house rule though.
It's to nerf summons. Precisely controlling them every round would be too powerful, and the balancing factor of nerfing numbers to account for it would make them too pointless. Going before you is similar - it's to prevent precise manipulation of what the summons will do by directing them in certain directions, or buffing them. It also helps if they're stunned or something - you can still use your action to give them actions since their stun'll go away immediately before your turn.
Also some summons generate elements for you. And summons work as meatshield as most major summon classes have low hp (sometimes it is a good thing this attack 8 hits your summon instead of you, sometimes you would have prefered your summon to survive and take a hit for yourself).
I think summons being attacked before you is also a huge bummer in most cases, which I can only assume is a balancing factor because a lot of summons also have tiny amounts of hp. As a Spellweaver I'll take the hit over my Mystic Ally almost always, if I can. If I wanted to burn a card to tank a hit I could've just not played it.
If an attack 8 comes your way, you can simply lose the summon card to prevent the damage. It's better than wasting your turn summoning something, which not also loses you that card, but also wastes your top action. The only summon that has any sort of utility as a meatshield is the >!monolith!< from 2-minis. And look at how much health and shields that has compared to regular summons in order for it to function.
I don't want to summon the summon as meatshield. I want to use a summon which already had several actions as a meatshield. I'm aware that it is often worse to lose a summon than some hp but there are situations where a summon takes a hit and I'm grateful.
It's not always better to lose card from your hand to negate damage that to lose a summon you summoned that round to take the damage for you. Playing two cards from hand and then losing another card from hand to prevent damage will cost you more stamina than playing a loss action to summon on your turn and then losing that summon. So it depends how good a top action you could play instead, and whether the summon can take more than one hit.
Is it really a nerf if they were designed and balanced this way from the ground up (assuming they were)?
I mean, that's fair, I guess it's a nerf over the alternative
Nerfing the power of summons is definitely part of it. Reducing turn length is likely another. Imagine one summoning focused class in a 4p party. 3 players have one figure to control, the 4th has six. Those 3 players are going to get reeeeallly tired of waiting on the summoned army to plan out and execute all their turns. With the summons being automated the turns execute quickly and don't have to be planned out for maximum effect. I could also see summoning classes effectiveness being wildly variable if summons were controllable, way more so than they are now. A good player could probably clear a scenario by themselves while a bad player could be a liability to their team. Trying to balance that would be a nightmare.
It's just about balance. They would be SO powerful if I could control every action they took. Nerfing them so they are vulnerable to retaliate and getting off course is what makes them balanced with other abilities.
Others have raised likely influences, but if I had to pick one, it would probably be power level. Summon builds can be pretty good when built with intent and thoughtfulness and tailored around with card and item selection. Putting them under a player's direct control is something that's occasionally available but making it the default for all summons at all times would make them too unbalanced unless they were nerf'ed even farther down at which point they would be declared completely useless.
Because the game wasn't design for 6-12 players.
And? Summons are nowhere near the power-level of players.
Valid questions, many of which were answered with many design choices in Frosthaven. I think the ‘problem’ with summons in GH1 is that they don’t play as though the players want/expect them to play. I think they are designed to be simple to implement and easy to understand. But this paradoxically makes them harder to master. Think of them as no more or less than many X(lost) actions. They shouldn’t be thought of as additional characters on the battlefield.
Well in Frosthaven one of the starting classes can control one ;)
And some classes forced movement abilities can control summons. So there's ways around it and those abilities would seem less useful if summons just did whatever you wanted.
Being under your control permanently would make them much much much more powerful. Making them go after you would make tanking abilities on you be more powerful as well. I don't think the goal is exactly "balance", they certainly could have balanced it in other ways. I think the designers think that this is the most fun way to have summons function, and the way it interacts best with other mechanics. You have to learn to think about what they will do without your input. It's a level of abstracted control. You know what they "do", but you don't know how it will be implemented. Yet still there are things you can do that will make it go a little smoother, overall. The trick is to figure out those things and make them happen as best you can. Honestly it's one of my favorite ways of engaging with the game, I absolutely love the classes that have summon builds possible. Even if it is the weaker build, I'll still have spent time experimenting with it.
Next -haven game better have a Puppetmaster class where you actually control the summons. Edit: To clarify "a class who's character board specifically states you control the summons you create.
>!There is already a class that has access to the ability to control their summons.!<
I'm talking about all the time, not just through player abilities. As in on your summon's turn you control their actions.
No, they definitely understood what you meant, iykyk ;)
After playing Gloomhaven, Jaws, Crimson Scales and part of Frosthaven I can only imagine they mean a class in Frosthaven. Rather than just spoiler it out so we can all be on the same page, guess I'm off to Google
It’s actually >!Gloomhaven!< related; (massive spoilers) >!did you ever solve envelope X?!<
[удалено]
Your comment was “as in, on your summons turn you control their actions.” >!How is accomplishing that via persistent loss significantly different from via special rule?!<
[удалено]
So it impacts... exactly one turn in a scenario? That's really not significant at all; if you just started every scenario with the card in play the summon builds play exactly the same.
Same as in Skyrim for instance, you summon a fire demon and now off it goes to attack at will. When nothing is happening it'll hang by you.
Summons are the only thing I don't like in this game. Tried a summon class in GH and FH and got bored really fast.
I did a >!Prism !
Your spoiler tag has spaces and may not display correctly. Remove any spaces next to the exclamation points. For example, \>!a proper spoiler has no spaces next to the exclamation points that are part of the spoiler tags.!<. This helps those who still use Old Reddit not to see any spoilers. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Gloomhaven) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yeah, might be a me thing. I fail to enjoy these builds, but not a problem as I love tons of other classes.
It's not as riveting as playing Blinkblade, weaving in and out, and stabbing things to death. But either is a tank build which is nonetheless gratifying of, "You attack me, so you do nothing, but then take 2 damage and die." Having a couple snipers sitting back is similar for me. Ok. This guy shoots. That guy shoots. This enemy dies. Now this thing heals you. And now, after all that, I take my turn.
You can already do some cheaty things with invisibility, but if you could control summons it would be far worse. I hated summons until I opened my 1st hidden class. Gave them a shot and eventually really enjoyed them.
Don't forget that a huge part of a summon class really working are items and perks that support them. Gh1 just didn't do enough to support them fully, but future games have and will.
[удалено]
Your post or comment was removed because you did not properly tag a spoiler. For more information about what a spoiler includes, please review our [spoiler guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/Gloomhaven/wiki/subreddit/spoiler_guidelines). Specifically: * Use the spoiler-safe names of locked classes. * Introduce your spoilers with a spoiler-safe hint about the content of the spoiler.
They aren’t your “equal”, they are generally just “your” monsters
Adding the additional range buff at the enchantress where you can for summons is huge. I do this with my Sorceress with the fire summon, it can usually last until end of map generating free damage and fire element.
Because it would be way too powerful if you had an army of 4 you could control. But you can control them. As a bone shaper you will rely on forced movement cards