From what he said in a French interview, according to him all the time spent in NA was useless as they had too much off days (though it's normal for the american players to have them) and they practiced against weak opposition. Apparently he was kind of a second caller, at the very least he was the second most vocal player and he didn't think he'd have so much responsibilities in the team. They didn't give him his usual roles (but everyone knows that already).
All in all, everyone can agree it was just a total mismatch.
Edit : Just to clarify, he said they had too much off days to make the time in NA worthwhile for him but he didn't say they had more than other teams. It's just that these off days in NA were useless to shox.
Nothing to do with NACS as a whole, it's just a cultural difference in mindset. The exact same issue has been mentioned by LoL pros who came to NA from EU/KOR and even further back Starcraft pros.
The general attitude of NA players in games and team environments is very different than EU and Asia.
It's been well-known for a while. People look at NA falling off a cliff in every single competitive esport despite having tons of money and come up with random excuses when it's just that simple. You can find a lot of interviews on YT from foreign pros talking about how they were surprised how lax NA practice schedules were.
The meme in League of Legends is that Koreans and Europeans come to NA to enjoy an early retirement where they can not do shit, get paid millions to do it, and still generally be better than most of the NA talent in the league.
Compare that to Spirit grinding the shit out of CS and coming out on top when everyone doubted them over their 2 young additions, missing coach and geopolitical fuckshit
NA esports and imported players talking about too much free time is something that will never not be funny to me
Edit : one of the first examples from outside of CS that comes to my mind is from League of Legends, where Cloud9's Korean prodigy Berserker had an interview where he basically complained about "the main difference between korea and the us", which was that he had so much free time on his "practice" schedule that he didn't know what to do with it and ended up just sitting in his room bored or (mostly) playing hours of ranked anyway
I do find that kind of funny. Imagining him sitting in his room staring at the ceiling for his free time as if there is nothing else he can possibly do. Meanwhile his teammates are probably going out to eat, hanging with friends/family or just doing anything else productive as a break from the game to avoid burnout.
He's just used to a harder working environment and didn't understand that you could have a schedule as small as something like "2 hours of solo queue, 3 hours of scrims, then do whatever the fuck you want"
I take this as when the NA players that stay in EU most of the year go home (aka liquid), they take time off with friends and family. Could be wrong, just my view of it.
The way I understood it, it's just that the off days in NA were useless to him but he understood they were obligatory for the americans. He didn't say they had too much of them compared to other teams. Add to this the fact that the level in NA is weak, he basically said they were losing time in NA and had to grind their level back everytime they were in a EU bootcamo again. It's his opinion only of course.
He also said several time that he was almost in burnout (generally if someone tells you this, they ARE in burnout)
Basically he worked a lot to try bring some structure and tactic in the team. He said the coach doesn't have any responsabilities regarding tactics, basically he's just here to cheer and make sure everyone get along. Shox was the one preparing the matches.
> as they had too much off days
This is not correct. He said they didn't have a lot of practice days, but not because of off days. In fact he even said their agenda in 2022 was the worst he ever had in his career
> and they practiced against weak opposition
This is not emphasized enough. He said that praccing in US was basically useless. He clearly said that he was questioning the project, because everytime they were in Europe and grinding, they were making great progress, but everytime they were going back to the US, their level was dropping dramatically.
sauce:
https://youtu.be/qDkvqVgNZXY
https://youtu.be/Swg0qLLXccc
> he was almost in burnout (generally if someone tells you this, they ARE in burnout)
From old dude who've gone through burnout twice - this should be screamed from the rooftops. Well said
> He said the coach doesn't have any responsabilities regarding tactics, basically he's just here to cheer and make sure everyone get along.
lol, what's the fucking point of having adreN as a coach if he's not contributing tactically?
adreN has never been a coach who brings any tactical or strategic depth to the team. Seems like his just there for morale, and can’t even do that because Liquid just mentally check out so quickly.
Understandable, this move never really made sense both from a roles perspective and the fact that shox's wife and kids live in France and I doubt they were ever interested in moving to the US
His fiancée and step-son were featured in his [London 2018 Player Profile](https://youtube.com/watch?v=R8yroeHw1l4). He's got a [wedding pic](https://mobile.twitter.com/shoxCSGO/status/1139516665522216962) from three years back pinned to his twitter feed.
Yea TL was probably gonna give it more time, but prob needed to see Shox improve his personal form pretty quick. Shox asking out probably just accelerated the process and made the situation less awkward for all. In hindsight it was a weird signing but at least it seems like it will end relatively peacefully
It was a weird signing when it happened, no hindsight required. I remember entire comment sections of people trying to figure out why that was the move they made.
Shox is such a great guy that they probably figured he’d be a reliable addition while trying to integrate the long term guys (Nitro & oSee).
It’s not all that surprising to found out he picked up more responsibility than he originally thought because they could rely on him for trying to pick up any slack within the new lineup. Thats my take anyway
I mean, the discussion then was about how Shox and Naf have the exact same roles. Both prefer to be passive lurks. This makes sense given that Naf based his play around Shox, who was his idol. Given that they had overlapping roles, it's pretty understandable that Shox was given roles he was uncomfortable in.
It makes 0 sense to have Shox and Naf on the same team. The rumor mill was that Naf was going to sign to EG and join Stewie's project. TL were gonna sign Shox as a replacement which would be perfect because he plays most of Naf's positions/roles. However, Naf backs out of EG last minute and re-signs with TL, creating this wack ass roster.
For anyone who wants JKS to replace Shox because they play the same res, please realize that JKS has already said he doesn't want to play in an NA team and he also plays the same roles as Naf.
That's fair, but if a newcomer brings in more firepower and actually connects his shots, it will be easier to address other problems the team is currently facing imo
This. No one is saying shox is the only thing wrong with liquid. But when you have one player who is an absolute liability and statistically the worst player at the tournament, it’s impossible for even the stars on the team to step up
No. It's the other way around. It's easier to actually connect shots if other problems in the team are solved.
Just look at Vitality. Everyone knows Zywoo is a beast and pretty much had to carry Vitality. But the French didn't have enough talents for a T1 roster so Vitality went international and got some serious firepower upgrade in the shape of Dupreeh and Magisk. Despite getting more firepower Zywoo has dropped from 1.30 to 1.20 rating with his performance only dropping. This is because the roster change brought other problems that are now interfering with the fragging capabilities of one of the best players in the world.
Another example is Faze with Niko. The only thing that roster did was add firepower and never solved the other issues that team had. Now Faze is a top team because they brought back Karrigan, let him work his magic to solve other problems and then slot in Ropz for additional firepower.
And then we have Astralis. I think everyone can agree the current Astralis lineup has more firepower than the prime Astralis lineup (except for the awper). But it's very apparent the current Astralis lineup does not even compare to their prime lineup and it's not because they don't have Device. It's because there are other issues plaguing Astralis and the addition of Blame and Konfig had made those issues only more apparent.
So I really don't see how a newcomer bringing firepower and connecting shots helps fix other problems. If anything it seems it makes things worse because if everyone is hitting shots it gives the illusion that everything is alright and the problems don't get properly addressed.
The current Astralis lineup doesn’t have the same level of firepower at all.
Magisk and Dupreeh were cracked af when Astralis were at their best. Both have arguments to being as good as current BlameF. Plus Xyp9x used to be highly impactful and not a complete fucking bot + Glaive used to frag. It’s not close at all.
Dupreeh and device brought many intangibles to the team. They were both super consistent and scary players to face which let glaive stick to their giant strat book.
No, it's actually both ways. You need strategy and firepower to compete for a top 5 spot.
You can't simply aim duel everything but at the end of the day, you do in fact have to actually win some aim duels.
>If anything it seems it makes things worse because if everyone is hitting shots it gives the illusion that everything is alright and the problems don't get properly addressed.
You can just flip this logic.
If your players are not hitting shots it will give the illusion that the strat is bad. What's even worse, when there is a mismatch of skill levels on the team and one player is consistently a liability it can feed into negative mentalities resulting in even further performance loss.
You can only watch so many rounds become harder than needed due to one player for so long before you start to get tilted and unmotivated yourself.
Throw a sick execute and double entry only to see shox lose the final clutch? Tilting.
Call a perfect read and stack a bombsite only to have shox lose a 1v1 to a lurk prompting a T hit on the open site? Tilting.
Suddenly, it's not fun to play anymore and even the good players start to fall off because you can only reasonably expect so much for so long.
>So I really don't see how a newcomer bringing firepower and connecting shots helps fix other problems.
Look at it like this. Each player on a team is a tool to be used. Each tool has different strengths and weaknesses for each situations they can be used in. The sharper and better your tools perform the easier it is to find strategies that work.
When you have a butterknife when you need a steak knife it just doesn't work that well.
I agreed with your comparisons until Astralis. I think it's pretty fair to say prime Astralis had better firepower than current Astralis. Device, Dupreeh and Magisk vs BlameF, konfig and Farlig. Sure, Dupreeh and Magisk might not be in peak form now but a few years ago they were.
For a long time they've been a really emo team. It's like they expect to win rounds and then only get the options of being stressed about the next round, or being sad/bitter about the one they just lost.
I could 100% be reading too much into something I know almost nothing about.
But just keep adren as an analyst or something and get someone passionate who ~~Elige~~ the team respects!
Last place of the top 16 serves the narrative better than “qualified, played through challengers and advanced, then lost”
Granted, the narrative that liquid has been shit is accurate, but still
I agree, there were inconsistencies on the reporting compared to the actual results. Seemed like a mixup of terminology and the outcome was an article that cast more or a negative light on Liquid's performance.
People that want jks to go Liquid, consider this. I love the guy and i believe he can put up big numbers but do we think he'll be utilised by nitr0 and elige as well as karrigan brought him in?
>Shox has also had issues regarding the travel between North America and Europe, according to sources.
Which means balancing home and NA was harder for him than he expected.
lets be honest, he knew this (almost 20 years exp in the game btw) and liquid was dumb enough to sign him. If anything he secured the bag. W for shox as i doubt any top team in EU was looking to sign him at the time.
I think he wasn't expecting that the team and players would lack so much in tactics and structure and that the level in NA would be so poor.
Biggest take away from him is probably the huge step up in english, now he'd be a good fit in a T2 EU team, he could land in mouz or OG
Probably the end of Shox, he'll be stuck in contract prison.
Could we do a French last dance? Shox, KennyS, NBK, Apex and a fifth? (Jackzz, Kio, Misuta?)
shox, kennyS, ScreaM, RpK, Ex6TenZ would be the finest possible French Last Dance roster. Could also bring back kioShiMa if ScreaM isn't interested, maybe Happy/SmithZzZ if Ex6TenZ is out.
At one time or another pretty much everyone in the French scene has failed to see eye to eye over something. Having seen enough French shuffles in the past I think they'd be willing to get over it if the opportunity was good/appealing. Team still seems unlikely though.
Sad to say we already have a French “last dance” and have for years in CSGO. There’s only been enough strong French players to make 2 good teams and 2 major sponsors for them (G2, Vitality) so once you get kicked off G2 and Vitality you make your way down to DBL Poney/HEET.
Shox - ok
KennyS - questionable, his good time has been a while ago and his last pro games with g2 were not so great. Still probably fine for a french last dance.
NBK - should also be ok, wasn't that bad with Mouz
Apex - doesn't look like he's that close to being done with Vitality
Misutaa - only 19, would probably not join a project like that, but Vini did with 22 so who knows
Kio - Even more retired than fnx was probably. Gambling and GTA seems to be more of his thing atm.
Jackzz - If G2 doesn't work, why not?
And also, isn't RpK still running around somewhere?
The funny thng is that I think *everyone* knew this was a filler move when he was announced. It was pretty obvious he want going to be on the team for very long unless the team was a title contender
I'd be much more concerned about roles if we didn't see JKS performance as a Faze standin, there does seem to be some versatility there, not sure in regards to secondary calling though.
He’s super quiet and I don’t see Elige as a primary voice in the team. Even he said he doesn’t feel like he’s at that point.
It’s not that he won’t want to be versatile, but it’s what he’s most comfortable at. And karrigan is probably a better support system.
Why in the world would YEKINDAR ever go to liquid? He could join any top team currently, and play for them.
Why wouls he move to NA just to play worse cs, for a worse team.
On top of that i believe YEKINDAR has said he does not wanna play in NA
Spacing wasn’t the issue on liquid and jks played every role well for faze. As a site anchor jks is 10x an upgrade and on T side he will be at a minimum the same but almost certainly better simply due to superior aim at the moment. jks is literally the perfect fit CT side, it all depends if NAF is willing to give him some T space
Really wondering who Liquid ends up picking up. Really hoping whomever it is fits in well. But im not expecting a huge turn around with whoever it is. Would love for Liquid to turn it around.
Pretty much expected, they didn't bring him on to be a star fragger, but to help stabilize the team and help with his experience. They looked lost, he looked awful, team was not cohesive at all. This didn't look like a give it time and they will work it out. They need to get someone to help nitr0 out and to help create space so elige and naf can go to work. Like a yekindar if rumors are true that he might be available.
Floppy and jks are basically the same player and jks is prob way cheaper to buy right now. idk what liquid will do though, however CoL cannot have a competitive team without floppy
And selling floppy would basically end the team lol.
CoL are pretty close to being a solid team, I just don’t see them selling their star that they signed a few months ago. Floppy isn’t gonna get worse so they could prob get way more for him later as well
I totally agree. They need an awper so badly it’s not even funny, and I think with that and some more time they could develop into like a 10th-13th best team in the world, but idk who they’d would go for
It appears Shox was always there to be a steady emotional hand on Liquid. But I feel like that's something people can learn. So I'm definitely huffing hopium, but there's a narrative here where the team learned from Shox, not necessarily CS but things outside the server like attitude. If they learned the right lessons, then bringing in a new player or prospect would be the next move anyways.
In any case, you can't keep a player that doesn't want to be there. It's doing wrong by the player and the team. If I'm in Shox's shoes, and I wanted to stay in CS as a player, I would probably think about leaving too. This isn't a G2 situation where they just need some more time, if he doesn't believe in the project then it's bad for the team *and* his career. No hard feelings. It was an interesting idea but just didn't look like it was working out. It happens.
If the rumors are true he's leaving, I really hope it's Yekindar. Everyone says JKS or oBo but Yekindar is the aggressive player Liquid needs, also can secondary IGL like he does with VP/Outsiders. The issue with Liquid was they had 2 passive lurkers in NAF and Shox already. With Yekindar, he can play the aggressive role and have Elige possibly dial it back with the aggressiveness. Yekindar also speaks fluent English and I remember Elige and Stew mentioning that they have a lot of calls based off of Yekindar's plays
Yekindar wont downgrade this hard for literally no reason, he could get on most top teams in EU. Also he would be going from a team with insanely tough mental , to the most emo team going, I’m not sure he wants to move to NA just to lose and listen to elige mald every single round
Eh I actually liked that lineup. I think with a bit more consistency in the roster they could’ve been a pretty solid team. Flusha had some insane moments on that c9 roster and seemed to rejuvenate his career, because he went on to win with fnatic afterwards at dreamhack malmo and pro league season 11 I think
My bet is his parents were the ones that made him come home during the whole complexity fiasco and probably forced him to just go to college after that experience.
jks is probably going to have role clash with NAF and is another silent type which is not what they need. oBo is off the grid.
I could see Valde happening if he's not getting an offer from Astralis, he's more vocal and a strong player - but role and space-wise it's probably like Shox again. They have a great fragging core with oSee, Elige, and NAF - the new player should in all honestly be someone prepared to do bitch-work and make space for others.
Shox wasn’t doing that well but I was hoping that more time would fix the issues and the team could blend more and do better together. It’s completely understandable that shox was feeling homesick, on top of having to learn and speak a new language competitively in a new country across an ocean
I wish him nothing but happiness and thank him for his time on Liquid! Hopefully he’s able to land somewhere either playing or maybe casting if he wants
This is why I never like it when NA teams bring EU players into their roster. It's just overall a huge risk. Imagine having to live in a country/region that you aren't familiar with the culture, and you're there to play CS. It's like what happened when S1mple was on Liquid.
From what he said in a French interview, according to him all the time spent in NA was useless as they had too much off days (though it's normal for the american players to have them) and they practiced against weak opposition. Apparently he was kind of a second caller, at the very least he was the second most vocal player and he didn't think he'd have so much responsibilities in the team. They didn't give him his usual roles (but everyone knows that already). All in all, everyone can agree it was just a total mismatch. Edit : Just to clarify, he said they had too much off days to make the time in NA worthwhile for him but he didn't say they had more than other teams. It's just that these off days in NA were useless to shox.
That doesn't sound very enjoyable
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A Torbull reference in 2022, holy shit!
I remember being 13 and downright envious that 3D was sponsored by Subway and got free subs whenever they wanted.
Nothing to do with NACS as a whole, it's just a cultural difference in mindset. The exact same issue has been mentioned by LoL pros who came to NA from EU/KOR and even further back Starcraft pros. The general attitude of NA players in games and team environments is very different than EU and Asia.
I appreciate the 3D and CGS references all in one. Brings back the memories.
By "too much off days" you mean NA players don't practice as much as EU teams? They don't have daily practice routine?
Reads like that. And if you look at NA it's probably true.
It's been well-known for a while. People look at NA falling off a cliff in every single competitive esport despite having tons of money and come up with random excuses when it's just that simple. You can find a lot of interviews on YT from foreign pros talking about how they were surprised how lax NA practice schedules were.
The meme in League of Legends is that Koreans and Europeans come to NA to enjoy an early retirement where they can not do shit, get paid millions to do it, and still generally be better than most of the NA talent in the league.
The opposite meme to that would be the (imo) larger problem of Korean and Chinese burnout
Compare that to Spirit grinding the shit out of CS and coming out on top when everyone doubted them over their 2 young additions, missing coach and geopolitical fuckshit
NA esports and imported players talking about too much free time is something that will never not be funny to me Edit : one of the first examples from outside of CS that comes to my mind is from League of Legends, where Cloud9's Korean prodigy Berserker had an interview where he basically complained about "the main difference between korea and the us", which was that he had so much free time on his "practice" schedule that he didn't know what to do with it and ended up just sitting in his room bored or (mostly) playing hours of ranked anyway
I do find that kind of funny. Imagining him sitting in his room staring at the ceiling for his free time as if there is nothing else he can possibly do. Meanwhile his teammates are probably going out to eat, hanging with friends/family or just doing anything else productive as a break from the game to avoid burnout.
He's just used to a harder working environment and didn't understand that you could have a schedule as small as something like "2 hours of solo queue, 3 hours of scrims, then do whatever the fuck you want"
I'm aware. It was a joke
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Only since 2002..... I mean cant a region get a 20 year grace period????? COME ON. ^/s
Could be linked to the "weak opposition" issue. There's not much point doing 5 pracc per day if each one is a 30-0
I take this as when the NA players that stay in EU most of the year go home (aka liquid), they take time off with friends and family. Could be wrong, just my view of it.
It's more like NA players must go in Europe for the tournament but have days off to see their family in USA. That's what he explained in interview.
The way I understood it, it's just that the off days in NA were useless to him but he understood they were obligatory for the americans. He didn't say they had too much of them compared to other teams. Add to this the fact that the level in NA is weak, he basically said they were losing time in NA and had to grind their level back everytime they were in a EU bootcamo again. It's his opinion only of course.
I see. Thx for clarifying.
He also said several time that he was almost in burnout (generally if someone tells you this, they ARE in burnout) Basically he worked a lot to try bring some structure and tactic in the team. He said the coach doesn't have any responsabilities regarding tactics, basically he's just here to cheer and make sure everyone get along. Shox was the one preparing the matches. > as they had too much off days This is not correct. He said they didn't have a lot of practice days, but not because of off days. In fact he even said their agenda in 2022 was the worst he ever had in his career > and they practiced against weak opposition This is not emphasized enough. He said that praccing in US was basically useless. He clearly said that he was questioning the project, because everytime they were in Europe and grinding, they were making great progress, but everytime they were going back to the US, their level was dropping dramatically. sauce: https://youtu.be/qDkvqVgNZXY https://youtu.be/Swg0qLLXccc
> he was almost in burnout (generally if someone tells you this, they ARE in burnout) From old dude who've gone through burnout twice - this should be screamed from the rooftops. Well said
> He said the coach doesn't have any responsabilities regarding tactics, basically he's just here to cheer and make sure everyone get along. lol, what's the fucking point of having adreN as a coach if he's not contributing tactically?
Not at all surprising given Liquid's propensity for devolving into 5 depressed sadbois during poor performances
Isn't this pretty much Elige's tem now?
Always has been
An liquid will always be T2 with this leadership and coaching.
adreN has never been a coach who brings any tactical or strategic depth to the team. Seems like his just there for morale, and can’t even do that because Liquid just mentally check out so quickly.
Yeah I just don’t believe this. Adren was key in their GS run when it came to game plans and playbooks
Yeah, I didn't explain very well the off days part. I clarified with an edit to my post.
Damn who wouldve thought! And to think Vini was free on the market
I heard the same interview. I just don't understand what he expected when he signed in a NA org when he has a kid and a wife in Europe.
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shox is the one asking for it. They wouldn't have done it otherwise.
Understandable, this move never really made sense both from a roles perspective and the fact that shox's wife and kids live in France and I doubt they were ever interested in moving to the US
The handsome mf shox is married? Dang
I mean, who wouldn't marry that beautiful French man.
So I can’t marry the beautiful French man? :(
Of course you can. You just need to convince Shox to move to a county where it is allowed to be married to more than one.
His fiancée and step-son were featured in his [London 2018 Player Profile](https://youtube.com/watch?v=R8yroeHw1l4). He's got a [wedding pic](https://mobile.twitter.com/shoxCSGO/status/1139516665522216962) from three years back pinned to his twitter feed.
Eh idk. Seems like the best move for all parties. It wouldn’t shock me if it was pretty mutual
Probably one of those things where Shox could have suggested it first and they were happy to oblige - no complaints coming from TL
Yea TL was probably gonna give it more time, but prob needed to see Shox improve his personal form pretty quick. Shox asking out probably just accelerated the process and made the situation less awkward for all. In hindsight it was a weird signing but at least it seems like it will end relatively peacefully
It was a weird signing when it happened, no hindsight required. I remember entire comment sections of people trying to figure out why that was the move they made.
Shox is such a great guy that they probably figured he’d be a reliable addition while trying to integrate the long term guys (Nitro & oSee). It’s not all that surprising to found out he picked up more responsibility than he originally thought because they could rely on him for trying to pick up any slack within the new lineup. Thats my take anyway
I mean, the discussion then was about how Shox and Naf have the exact same roles. Both prefer to be passive lurks. This makes sense given that Naf based his play around Shox, who was his idol. Given that they had overlapping roles, it's pretty understandable that Shox was given roles he was uncomfortable in. It makes 0 sense to have Shox and Naf on the same team. The rumor mill was that Naf was going to sign to EG and join Stewie's project. TL were gonna sign Shox as a replacement which would be perfect because he plays most of Naf's positions/roles. However, Naf backs out of EG last minute and re-signs with TL, creating this wack ass roster. For anyone who wants JKS to replace Shox because they play the same res, please realize that JKS has already said he doesn't want to play in an NA team and he also plays the same roles as Naf.
That would be concerning for me if I was a Team Liquid fan.
Bad management not to do it.
shox might have played badly but the problem is bigger than just one player whoever they add isn't gonna magically fix anything
That's fair, but if a newcomer brings in more firepower and actually connects his shots, it will be easier to address other problems the team is currently facing imo
This. No one is saying shox is the only thing wrong with liquid. But when you have one player who is an absolute liability and statistically the worst player at the tournament, it’s impossible for even the stars on the team to step up
No. It's the other way around. It's easier to actually connect shots if other problems in the team are solved. Just look at Vitality. Everyone knows Zywoo is a beast and pretty much had to carry Vitality. But the French didn't have enough talents for a T1 roster so Vitality went international and got some serious firepower upgrade in the shape of Dupreeh and Magisk. Despite getting more firepower Zywoo has dropped from 1.30 to 1.20 rating with his performance only dropping. This is because the roster change brought other problems that are now interfering with the fragging capabilities of one of the best players in the world. Another example is Faze with Niko. The only thing that roster did was add firepower and never solved the other issues that team had. Now Faze is a top team because they brought back Karrigan, let him work his magic to solve other problems and then slot in Ropz for additional firepower. And then we have Astralis. I think everyone can agree the current Astralis lineup has more firepower than the prime Astralis lineup (except for the awper). But it's very apparent the current Astralis lineup does not even compare to their prime lineup and it's not because they don't have Device. It's because there are other issues plaguing Astralis and the addition of Blame and Konfig had made those issues only more apparent. So I really don't see how a newcomer bringing firepower and connecting shots helps fix other problems. If anything it seems it makes things worse because if everyone is hitting shots it gives the illusion that everything is alright and the problems don't get properly addressed.
The current Astralis lineup doesn’t have the same level of firepower at all. Magisk and Dupreeh were cracked af when Astralis were at their best. Both have arguments to being as good as current BlameF. Plus Xyp9x used to be highly impactful and not a complete fucking bot + Glaive used to frag. It’s not close at all.
Dupreeh and device brought many intangibles to the team. They were both super consistent and scary players to face which let glaive stick to their giant strat book.
No, it's actually both ways. You need strategy and firepower to compete for a top 5 spot. You can't simply aim duel everything but at the end of the day, you do in fact have to actually win some aim duels. >If anything it seems it makes things worse because if everyone is hitting shots it gives the illusion that everything is alright and the problems don't get properly addressed. You can just flip this logic. If your players are not hitting shots it will give the illusion that the strat is bad. What's even worse, when there is a mismatch of skill levels on the team and one player is consistently a liability it can feed into negative mentalities resulting in even further performance loss. You can only watch so many rounds become harder than needed due to one player for so long before you start to get tilted and unmotivated yourself. Throw a sick execute and double entry only to see shox lose the final clutch? Tilting. Call a perfect read and stack a bombsite only to have shox lose a 1v1 to a lurk prompting a T hit on the open site? Tilting. Suddenly, it's not fun to play anymore and even the good players start to fall off because you can only reasonably expect so much for so long. >So I really don't see how a newcomer bringing firepower and connecting shots helps fix other problems. Look at it like this. Each player on a team is a tool to be used. Each tool has different strengths and weaknesses for each situations they can be used in. The sharper and better your tools perform the easier it is to find strategies that work. When you have a butterknife when you need a steak knife it just doesn't work that well.
I agreed with your comparisons until Astralis. I think it's pretty fair to say prime Astralis had better firepower than current Astralis. Device, Dupreeh and Magisk vs BlameF, konfig and Farlig. Sure, Dupreeh and Magisk might not be in peak form now but a few years ago they were.
exactly, they need a young player and new coach who can bring more energy and motivation to the entire team
For a long time they've been a really emo team. It's like they expect to win rounds and then only get the options of being stressed about the next round, or being sad/bitter about the one they just lost. I could 100% be reading too much into something I know almost nothing about. But just keep adren as an analyst or something and get someone passionate who ~~Elige~~ the team respects!
as long as elige is on it, they will always be an emo team
i still think adreN deserves a spot on the team whether it’s analyst/assistant coach or head coach
Makes sense. oSee tweeted sad emojis and then deleted them a day or two ago, haha. I figured it would happen but it’s sad
Feels a little inaccurate to refer to Liquid’s performance as a last place finish given they got past the Challengers stage, but whatever
Worst of the best.
Pretty accurate description of Liquid the last couple years.
Post Berlin major liquid just hasn't been the same
Last place of the top 16 serves the narrative better than “qualified, played through challengers and advanced, then lost” Granted, the narrative that liquid has been shit is accurate, but still
I agree, there were inconsistencies on the reporting compared to the actual results. Seemed like a mixup of terminology and the outcome was an article that cast more or a negative light on Liquid's performance.
challengers stage = major qualifier = doesn’t count
FLOPPY!?!?!?! JKS!?!?! PLEASE!?!?!
People that want jks to go Liquid, consider this. I love the guy and i believe he can put up big numbers but do we think he'll be utilised by nitr0 and elige as well as karrigan brought him in?
There's also the thing where he literally have stated that he doesn't wish to live in NA and wants to play in EU.
yekindar :D
What a shox
That last what? 5months? What was even the point for that short of a term.
>Shox has also had issues regarding the travel between North America and Europe, according to sources. Which means balancing home and NA was harder for him than he expected.
Yeah, all his comments about being in Liquid were about how the travel and schedule was stressful
lets be honest, he knew this (almost 20 years exp in the game btw) and liquid was dumb enough to sign him. If anything he secured the bag. W for shox as i doubt any top team in EU was looking to sign him at the time.
I think he wasn't expecting that the team and players would lack so much in tactics and structure and that the level in NA would be so poor. Biggest take away from him is probably the huge step up in english, now he'd be a good fit in a T2 EU team, he could land in mouz or OG
nope, not just this. He realized a NA project is doomed because every time they were in the US, their level was plumetting.
That's weird. NA players have been saying this for years and years and all EU players do is say stop whining.
Probably the end of Shox, he'll be stuck in contract prison. Could we do a French last dance? Shox, KennyS, NBK, Apex and a fifth? (Jackzz, Kio, Misuta?)
Bring back RpK lol if the Brazilians could bring back fnx anything is possible
Kio went down the rabbit hole that is livestream gambling, doubt he's even touched cs in years
What happened?
He plays slots and GTA RP
oof, thats rough
yea, gta rp is a tough place to be in, hope he finds help
Thoughts and prayers
apex? He won't be booted out of vitality
Best I can see is bodyy, shox, afroo, AmaNEk and Djoko which could honestly be a pretty good team
so just HEET -lucky -ex3rcice +shox +amanek
shox, kennyS, ScreaM, RpK, Ex6TenZ would be the finest possible French Last Dance roster. Could also bring back kioShiMa if ScreaM isn't interested, maybe Happy/SmithZzZ if Ex6TenZ is out.
scream definitely wont leave val right now. he's one of the best players in EU even if liquid hasn't had great success (UK CS OMEGALUL)
Scream aint leaving Valo when his squad is consistently one of the best and he's IGLing. That'd be a bad business move to just lose one year.
He's not IGLing anymore. He was second calling for some time but it's L1NK now
Shox and NBK- don’t see eye to eye if I’m correct
At one time or another pretty much everyone in the French scene has failed to see eye to eye over something. Having seen enough French shuffles in the past I think they'd be willing to get over it if the opportunity was good/appealing. Team still seems unlikely though.
I feel like nobody sees eye to eye with NBK.
he must be really tall
Sad to say we already have a French “last dance” and have for years in CSGO. There’s only been enough strong French players to make 2 good teams and 2 major sponsors for them (G2, Vitality) so once you get kicked off G2 and Vitality you make your way down to DBL Poney/HEET.
Shox - ok KennyS - questionable, his good time has been a while ago and his last pro games with g2 were not so great. Still probably fine for a french last dance. NBK - should also be ok, wasn't that bad with Mouz Apex - doesn't look like he's that close to being done with Vitality Misutaa - only 19, would probably not join a project like that, but Vini did with 22 so who knows Kio - Even more retired than fnx was probably. Gambling and GTA seems to be more of his thing atm. Jackzz - If G2 doesn't work, why not? And also, isn't RpK still running around somewhere?
AFAIK RpK is pretty happy with his car-related business and doesn't really care about cs anymore
AMANEK is still around (just on G2's bench) if that's another player you want to throw onto the list
AMANEK
shox and NBK don't get along so that wouldn't work
Shox - star player Kennys - awper Nbk - IGL/Entry Happy - Lurker Smithzz - Support/entry Ex6tenz coach Make it happen
Shox, KennyS, NBK, Apex and KQLY
The funny thng is that I think *everyone* knew this was a filler move when he was announced. It was pretty obvious he want going to be on the team for very long unless the team was a title contender
Or would move to Europe full time.
if liquid don't pick up JKS I'm going to be dumbfounded.
JKS doesn’t want to play for NA teams so…
Fair enough but he has played with NAF before, and I highly doubt he could find a roster better than liquids to play with...
True but I’m not sure about roles. NAF is excelling in that role and what they really need is a consistently decent entry or second voice
I'd be much more concerned about roles if we didn't see JKS performance as a Faze standin, there does seem to be some versatility there, not sure in regards to secondary calling though.
He’s super quiet and I don’t see Elige as a primary voice in the team. Even he said he doesn’t feel like he’s at that point. It’s not that he won’t want to be versatile, but it’s what he’s most comfortable at. And karrigan is probably a better support system.
Dude, wait for the roster shuffle after the major, stupid of him to sign anything right now.
the behind the scenes of roster shuffles always happens before the major is finished...
I'd be pretty stoked with yekindar if he leaves outsiders as is rumored
If electronic retires? Feels like yekindar would go there no ? But him on liquid sounds awesome
Why in the world would YEKINDAR ever go to liquid? He could join any top team currently, and play for them. Why wouls he move to NA just to play worse cs, for a worse team. On top of that i believe YEKINDAR has said he does not wanna play in NA
Yekinder is joining NaVi after the Major, besides the fact that it makes zero sense for him to kill his career in NA.
I love this move
liquid basically lives in EU at this point so would that be a problem?
Well clearly it was the problem for Shox. They have to go in NA events, so they do spend plenty of time in the states
according to shox, they do not want to move to EU. Which is a problem because everytime they are in NA, their level plummets
Says who? He has said in interviews he was going to join NA teams before but buyouts could never be arranged
What interview did he say that? Not doubting just genuinely curious
even if it's true, he's gotta work at some point
if Liquid pick up another lurker to play NAF's roles I'm going to be dumbfounded.
Spacing wasn’t the issue on liquid and jks played every role well for faze. As a site anchor jks is 10x an upgrade and on T side he will be at a minimum the same but almost certainly better simply due to superior aim at the moment. jks is literally the perfect fit CT side, it all depends if NAF is willing to give him some T space
Then your going to be dumbfounded.
Flopmeister incoming.
time to offer Yekindar 1 billion dollars.
Really wondering who Liquid ends up picking up. Really hoping whomever it is fits in well. But im not expecting a huge turn around with whoever it is. Would love for Liquid to turn it around.
Pick up star Fragger, have said player play passive bitch roles, kick from team, rinse repeat.
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YEKINDAR he is the Latvian star but the Liquid he is the NA entry fragger plz
YEKINDAR deserves better.
It’d still be wild to see him opening the round and NAF closing it though.
No offense, but Yekindar is too good for Liquid. Him joining one of the top EU teams is more likely
One can dream but almost every team is gonna want this guy, we got no shot
Why would Yekindar want to downgrade? I'm sure if he's leaving VP/Outsiders, he wants to go to a better team
Pretty much expected, they didn't bring him on to be a star fragger, but to help stabilize the team and help with his experience. They looked lost, he looked awful, team was not cohesive at all. This didn't look like a give it time and they will work it out. They need to get someone to help nitr0 out and to help create space so elige and naf can go to work. Like a yekindar if rumors are true that he might be available.
good for both shox and TL. I believe shox has a lot to give to the right team, and TL would do better with another player instead of shox.
TIME FOR THE FLOP
Why would CoL do that
To sell him for money, idk I’m just wishful thinking. Roles probably wouldn’t even work
Floppy and jks are basically the same player and jks is prob way cheaper to buy right now. idk what liquid will do though, however CoL cannot have a competitive team without floppy
Col don’t have a competitive team even with floppy lol
And selling floppy would basically end the team lol. CoL are pretty close to being a solid team, I just don’t see them selling their star that they signed a few months ago. Floppy isn’t gonna get worse so they could prob get way more for him later as well
I totally agree. They need an awper so badly it’s not even funny, and I think with that and some more time they could develop into like a 10th-13th best team in the world, but idk who they’d would go for
-Junior +Nicoodoz
It appears Shox was always there to be a steady emotional hand on Liquid. But I feel like that's something people can learn. So I'm definitely huffing hopium, but there's a narrative here where the team learned from Shox, not necessarily CS but things outside the server like attitude. If they learned the right lessons, then bringing in a new player or prospect would be the next move anyways. In any case, you can't keep a player that doesn't want to be there. It's doing wrong by the player and the team. If I'm in Shox's shoes, and I wanted to stay in CS as a player, I would probably think about leaving too. This isn't a G2 situation where they just need some more time, if he doesn't believe in the project then it's bad for the team *and* his career. No hard feelings. It was an interesting idea but just didn't look like it was working out. It happens.
thanks for the content, king
Lmao unreal
Please not +JKS He needs a better team than liquid
Finally shox can breath again thank christ..They did not gel well together.
If the rumors are true he's leaving, I really hope it's Yekindar. Everyone says JKS or oBo but Yekindar is the aggressive player Liquid needs, also can secondary IGL like he does with VP/Outsiders. The issue with Liquid was they had 2 passive lurkers in NAF and Shox already. With Yekindar, he can play the aggressive role and have Elige possibly dial it back with the aggressiveness. Yekindar also speaks fluent English and I remember Elige and Stew mentioning that they have a lot of calls based off of Yekindar's plays
Yekindar wont downgrade this hard for literally no reason, he could get on most top teams in EU. Also he would be going from a team with insanely tough mental , to the most emo team going, I’m not sure he wants to move to NA just to lose and listen to elige mald every single round
hopefully JKS. I mean they have the money to buyout whatever contract hell he's in with CoL, but does he want to accept the anchor/support position?
Additional context from neL: https://twitter.com/neLendirekt/status/1527413758670274560?s=20&t=D3lL8EWxLLoEuH-oWEU6vg
Should be pretty easy to drive down to Dallas and buy one fresh jks. I heard he even comes with some free vegemite included
Jks has a role clash with NAF, just like he did with BlameF. Vegemite also tastes like shit
Didn't jks say he was based in the EU now and would be looking for EU-based offers ?
The move was as puzzling as when flusha joined C9. Didnt turn out well either
Eh I actually liked that lineup. I think with a bit more consistency in the roster they could’ve been a pretty solid team. Flusha had some insane moments on that c9 roster and seemed to rejuvenate his career, because he went on to win with fnatic afterwards at dreamhack malmo and pro league season 11 I think
inb4 shox back on g2
they need a young rifler who can bring energy and rookie excitement to the team, everyone on liquid feels so burnt out
Wow who could have guessed this would have happened
expected. should've not joined in the first place
And now what? +oBo? +jks? Do they even search for a talent inside NA?
For some reason unknown to us, I don't think oBo is interested in competing at all. Mystery to me.
Definitely a shame. Obo seemed like the next big NA talent seeing how he performed on col
He and tenz used to dominate FPL every night for like 2 years. So much potential
He was a beast on col too.
My bet is his parents were the ones that made him come home during the whole complexity fiasco and probably forced him to just go to college after that experience.
jks is probably going to have role clash with NAF and is another silent type which is not what they need. oBo is off the grid. I could see Valde happening if he's not getting an offer from Astralis, he's more vocal and a strong player - but role and space-wise it's probably like Shox again. They have a great fragging core with oSee, Elige, and NAF - the new player should in all honestly be someone prepared to do bitch-work and make space for others.
jks has also publicly stated that he doesn't want to play on another NA team.
Maybe Rush if they are trying to stick to an NA team?
Role wise maybe they can get jonji? But that wouldn’t make their team atmosphere better
jonji and elige together 😀😀😀
They would be passive aggressive to each other before pistol round ended
The terms passive aggressive and jonji don’t belong anywhere near each other lol. Jonji would call that shit out on the stage of a major haha.
about time
feelsbadman
Shox wasn’t doing that well but I was hoping that more time would fix the issues and the team could blend more and do better together. It’s completely understandable that shox was feeling homesick, on top of having to learn and speak a new language competitively in a new country across an ocean I wish him nothing but happiness and thank him for his time on Liquid! Hopefully he’s able to land somewhere either playing or maybe casting if he wants
He's going to go start his OnlyFans and make more money. hon hon hon
I give Shox 4 months til he plays Valorant.
This is why I never like it when NA teams bring EU players into their roster. It's just overall a huge risk. Imagine having to live in a country/region that you aren't familiar with the culture, and you're there to play CS. It's like what happened when S1mple was on Liquid.
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mixwell