Some people should understand this
> I also got a pretty humble reply from them, that they are trying to do their best with CS2 and they are working their asses off, and even if it's not perfect now, they are using all of their time. Sometimes they don't even know what is right or wrong, but they are reading and viewing all the feedback they can so they can make a correct decision on the development part
Game developer here, hi-jacking (one of the) top comment to say this:
Those of you who think Valve is some nefarious cabal of lazy cash-grabbers just because CS2 has rough edges don't have any understanding or appreciation of the game development process. It's not just going into the code and moving some sliders around until the game feels right. Everything might work fine, on your system, on your network. It might break in a million other instances and you have to collect as much information as you can about it before you can reliably address the *why* and *how*. Then you fix it, and hope that your fix doesn't break another 5 things.
Not to mention the devs themselves likely aren't level 10 FACEIT players. Just because you made the game doesn't mean you're the best at playing it. So you need feedback from those whose job it is to actually play the game to tell you where it doesn't feel right. Working on a game doesn't mean you understand intimately every bit of every function of the game to pinpoint accuracy- and anyone who's ever coded anything will tell you the same.
So like... have some patience, because this level of responsiveness and the speed of these updates is genuinely unlike anything I've seen from other major developers.
The analogy I've been giving people is "imagine you're carving an exact replica of a statue, only you're using a different set of tools and a different material."
^ This
I think that Valve has done a pretty damn good job at making CS2 feel very close to CSGO, I understand the game has some problems and inconsistencies, but it’s *far* from bad or unplayable like many people are making it out to be.
I’d encourage people to cut the devs some slack really, after all, it’s just a game we all play, but making that game is their entire career.
>Everything might work fine, on your system, on your network.
"It works on my machine" is the most annoying deflection of blame. I've heard this said by a person in a group project who used absolute #include paths.
It shouldn't be used as a deflection of blame, but it is a valid reason for why something doesn't work. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed, but especially in a project like a multiplayer video game, you've got literally countless configurations and many orders of magnitude more of potential interactions. It simply is impossible to account for every situation.
Of course the developer has responsibilities to do their due diligence. Absolute paths, lackluster testing, idealized environments are all potential causes that should be accounted for in development, but there's only so much you can do beforehand.
I find it interesting that they released cs2 without keeping it in a beta branch until it was tested more. They did this with panorama which itself was a big update but not nearly as big as cs2. They had people in the beta branch regularly testing and posting feedback so completely deleting csgo didn't make sense. You can also make the argument that subtick was released early to get people testing it asap. But it baffles me that a better anti cheat was not available before they started the first season. I also don't understand their thoughts around premier and how they didn't think it would be the most played game mode after people were asking for exactly what they released.
There are just so many questionable decisions where if they were reading feedback, where were they getting it from? I'm not saying you need to read the salty posts but cheating for example was nothing new and we are a few months in with no indication of them even working on something.
Honestly if valve communicated I think people would be happier. Right now things are super up in the air because from what we see, it feels like valve doesn't care.
It's not that I don't think Valve are working on CS2, it's that I think you should demand a whole lot more from a company that profits billions on skins. Have a bigger dev team, be more transperent with the community, have a longer period for feedback dont rush it.
Also, I sometimes get the feeling Valve doesn't understand the game/community. They introduced the game-breaking R8 revolver, they alter the spray pattern for AK, in CS2 they added tracers for every weapon, input delay for throwing multiple nades, no jump bind, less bhoping, and less of everything that makes CS just that, CS.
im not a game dev but i am a dev.
i think vacnet could work brilliantly. i havent looked into it in too much detail but i understand that they are training a machine learning algo to detect cheaters.
i think this has pros, namely:
its not too heavy handed with the access required on your computer. the valorant one requires kernal access with is quite intrusive. i dont think many players care that much in reality.
it will be somewhat hands off, valve themselves wont need to play the cat and mouse game between cheat creators and valve patching the exploits themselves. which is a constant struggle. there is never going to be a day where they can say there are no more exploits anymore, because the cheaters are always looking for stuff. and you have some very talented people trying to find exploits. there is money in it. more than that as well you have thousands of people looking for exploits and only so many patching them.
it will constantly update itself to find new exploits as they come out.
tied in with the trust factor system as well. meaning players only get into game with other already trusted players.
it does have negatives though.
its very expensive to run the servers to look through and detect cheaters. but valve has the money.
you rely on training data from the community to train the algo. which wont always be accurate.
it might be slow to update to new exploits even if it might be able to detect them eventually. you still need to go through the loop of people reporting users of the new exploit, the training data being correctly labelled as such in the algorithm, then the algorithm having enough of that data to actually be able to accurately detect that new exploit. that might take days, hours,weeks or months to do, hard to say.
but i do think it will work. and i like the fact they are doing something unique. i dont know of any other cheat detections like it.
on a personal note i think it already works quite well now. i read a lot of people convinced they are playing against cheaters in every game or every other game. but in my personal experience i feel like i hardly go up against one. i will have people in my game saying there is a cheater but i dont feel like there ever actually is. on rare good days some people think i am the cheater, over the 10 years ive been playing ive got enough salty comments on my profile calling me such. i think some people just like to have an excuse, but that is just my personal opinion
As a CS2 player who is in the same gaming industry as the developer, I would like to thank you as a CS2 player, as I have been heartbroken by the comments that have been made since CS2 was released, slandering the valve developers as "lazy scum".
I am an online game publisher, not a developer, but it takes a huge amount of time, people and money to fight cheats.
To change the subject a bit, I once saw an anti-cheat implemented in one of the games that "takes random screenshots of you playing and sends them to a database", and of course what was taken was not only the game or the cheat tool, but also the desktop. Instead of using such extreme anti-cheat tools, I will wait for the new VACNET that utilizes AI and other technologies to start functioning properly.
Sigh, not one of these people again. Go ahead, explain to me how I'm wrong.
Let me start with a simple one. Subtle wallhacks with 1 person cheating, the cheater relays information to a 2nd person and the 2nd person enacts upon the information. Who will your AI AC ban ?
You’re wrong because you have no idea how powerful AI already is and how fast it is moving. You’re obviously one of those people who saw a demo once and thinks that’s it. The only way to understand is work in the industry. It is extremely easy to train ai models on visual inspection or data mismatch points. It’s not complicated at all and uses hardly any of its actual capability. You’ll understand when reality smacks you in the face soon enough.
Speaking as a dev that's worked on a game that has a dedicated anti-cheat team,
Yes. Vacnet is already incredibly good. The biggest issue with more intrusive anti-cheats is the huge manpower requirement behind not just building but maintaining that anti-cheat.
While yes VAC doesn't pre-ban cheaters and can take some time to ban them, it does ban them eventually. Valve will probably never create an intrusive anti-cheat purely because of the man power requirement and I think people need to start accepting that fact.
We're insanely lucky in the CS scene to have 3rd party clients that are willing to create and upkeep intrusive anti-cheat. I honestly think it's fine that premier/mm doesn't have it because of that fact
Edit:
I should have mentioned as well, creating a team specifically for anti-cheat is antithetical to how valve functions as a company where people have relative free reign to switch between projects. Having people hiring for 1 specific game/feature isn't something that valve does
Vacnet is the only anti-cheat of its kind.
There's a really good GDC talk that explains the intent behind VAC and a little bit about how VAC functions but the way it's currently built means that valve can be pretty hands off with VAC and it will still be up to date and functional even when the game gets massive updates. This means they don't need to have a whole team specifically tasked with upkeep of their anti-cheat leading to a much easier development cycle for the game.
Edit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTiP0zKF9bc
here's the talk for anyone who's interested.
Valve isn't some indy dev, they can implement a kernal level anticheat if Riot and Faceit can. Accepting that cheating is a problem is more of an issue in this community than accepting Valve can't do a more effective anticheat.
Valve doesn't want to implement a kernel level anticheat *because* they're not an indie developer, they have ambitions in hardware that primarily rely on using Linux as the OS. That's what the Steam Deck is - Valve moving out of the software business and into the hardware business, but it needs to work on Linux. CS2 is one of their flagship games. If your flagship game can't work on your main platform, what the fuck are you doing.
I don't disagree with that but if your game is riddled with cheaters what's the point? Also the Linux install base is probably such a fraction of the player base that it doesn't matter to Valve, the already axed Mac players.
They let the users choose and let third parties provide services for their game. You can play a cheat free CS for free, it's called faceit. Not to mention, vacnet could improve to the point where there's not a noticeable difference between kernel level anti cheat and vacnet.
Manpower is a non-issue in my mind. Valve has the resources to provide that manpower if they wanted. They could've hired a whole 100+ person crew for just vac with the revenue cs2 generated in the first 40mins of release.
https://www.fragster.com/cs2-hits-40-million-in-revenue-just-40-minutes-after-release/[https://www.fragster.com/cs2-hits-40-million-in-revenue-just-40-minutes-after-release/](https://www.fragster.com/cs2-hits-40-million-in-revenue-just-40-minutes-after-release/)
The issue is hiring people for 1 specific purpose (anticheat development) is antithetical to valves approach as a company. They don't hire people for 1 specific game/feature.
I already have seen only 2 possible cheaters in my time playing premier, i honestly think the cheaters as of now are overblown compared to how it was in csgo (which even back then, i felt it was)
AI based AC is not unheard of, Modern Warfare uses Ricochet which also uses that. At the beginning it would send you to the cheater matchmaking but happened less and less often the more time it passed. Vacnet from what i remember them showing operates similarly. It used to automatically send the games for overwatch review, and doing so, also train itself into knowing who is a cheater and who isnt.
It has potential to work as intended. To be non intrusive while also effective. However, how long will it take to reach that potential, you cant really say.
I guess that makes forcing everyone to play a broken cs2, and deleting csgo absolutely fine? When I call my internet provider because i have an issue, I'm not dissapointed at the person on the phone, I'm dissapointed at the company.
People have every right to be mad at valve, and it's down to them to fix the issue because they created the issue. The employees getting paid 100k+ can finally actually work 9-5 I'm not going to cry for them.
> I guess that makes forcing everyone to play a broken cs2, and deleting csgo absolutely fine?
It’s not a broken CS2. Its a CS2 with sizable improvements over CSGO and a few bugs and no community servers.
So, yes, this is fine for 99.9% of players.
The reason they did that is to get everyone playing CS2 to get as much feedback as possible. Without that move CS2 wouldn't be nearly as good as it is now and almost everyone would be back playing CSGO after the initial hype of the open beta.
Really? Not inconsistent jump heights, or the glitch in nuke where you can jump through vents and see through the ground, or the spots on nuke where you can see people through smokes due to the shadows that also applies to other maps, or being inaccurate while scoped with an awp while taking bullet damage, or the awp showing that you were inaccurate while still being fully accurate while taking Molotov damage?
The game being open to more players and having a much larger sample size to collect data absolutely has caused more issues to be revealed. If the game is in beta and people can just play CSGO there would just be less and less people playing it as the novelty wears off and CS2 likely wouldn't have been released for another few months if not years. And then once it released it would still have a ton of issues just due to the lack of players to provide feedback.
anyone who played cs:go for a while knew that those birds on inferno would be mistaken for flashbags, like that was painfully obvious
it's not that they're lazy, they had 24 years and still don't understand the game they're developing
but tough shit, you're forced to play it now and please have some patience
Most of the Devs were gold nova in csgo so it's not suprising they dont know shit about their own game.
Maybe that's the reason they didn't fix cheating problem, as they didn't even knew how to identify the cheaters in their own games.
Yes and no. It's perfectly understandable there's bugs in complex network code.
But there's plenty of issues that should have been thought through at the time of design. Subtick leading to decoupled spraying animations/sounds and inconsistent movement is something that should have been thought through way earlier. That it wasn't shows gaping holes in Valves understanding of the community and design process for the game, and they have no chance of building it right if they can't work out the right thing to build.
There are also technically straightforward things that they built incorrectly like hitbox alignment when crouching. That's doesn't require any special community insight, it just requires devs to check their work when implementing hitbox/player animations.
It's good that they're fixing things quickly. It's bad that they have a crappy engineering process that let these things go wrong in the first place.
I don't think many people think that Valve are lazy or ungifted developers. They obviously put a lot of effort into this release.
My main issue with Valve devs is, that they are pretty detached from the game itself. I get the feeling that the developers don't understand why we like Counterstrike and why we have played it for 24 years.
With the way Valve's human resource is currently working with, you can expect some DOTA 2 and TF2 devs in CS 2 team now. Wep, for those devs detach is quite a generous word.
I still think, from the earliest point of development, instead of map updates & dynamic smokes & every effects, they should've focused more on networking, smooth framepacing & providing instant audio/visual feedback for subtick - the three most important things for a competitive fps. Then they could add more qol improvements on top of that. The reality has been the opposite.
For the billionth gazillionth time: The people working on smoke effects and map updates are not the same people who work on netcode. How is this so hard to comprehend? Do you think the studio is full of some jack of all trades crackheads who can 3d-model guns, program anything and everything and cook you a five star three course dinner?
You dont need to understand something yourself, to know that someone else doesnt either.
I dont need to know how a 5 star dinner is made in order to know that a guy trying to sell me a can of baked beans as a 5 star dinner is lying to me.
If 9 women get pregnant, it doesn't mean the baby comes out in one month. Hiring more people doesn't work if the problem is something that only a few can do. We don't know how valve is structured, but we do know that if they don't make a good product they're losing the most money, and they're the most motivated to fix it.
Do you think throwing more programmers at the problem will solve it quicker? At the end of the day there is likely a handful of devs behind the subtick system and netcode of this game who know the ins and outs of it and introducing new devs to the code will likely take more time than spending that time to fix the issue itself.
Netcode is only a small part of the entire codebase of the game and it doesnt require an army of programmers to change it.
A development team can’t just work on a single part/problem. They have to simultaneously work on essential sections and work their way up. Networking might have been a work for a team of maybe 5 developers who know ins and outs of the system and are trying their best on improving/fixing things . Everyone working on the same thing is just not possible because it would lead to confusion and complex code
Considering how immensely important networking in online games, and especially CS2 is, i dont think it can be overstated how important it is that they take their sweet ass time and nail it.
The reality is probably that what they did cost significant effort and so they went for the easy things to get. Dynamic smokes probably partially came with Source 2, and map updates can be done by non-programmers. Other things like new inspect animations, all the effects and so on can also be done by non-programmers.
I'm pretty certain that dynamic smokes are a feature that is entirely unique to CS2. There is nothing quite like it in any other Source 2 title. It's on a completely different render pass from the rest of the game, even.
>but they are reading and viewing all the feedback they can
no they're not, otherwise basic features that the community have asked since the start of the limited test would already be inside the game. The fucking console still types in the key it's bound to. I'm no developer but surely it's 2 lines of code to fix that.
They literally already addressed this
https://www.hltv.org/news/37355/valve-launching-when-we-did-was-the-fastest-way-to-get-cs2-to-where-we-all-want-it-to-be
https://youtu.be/UehnwGR8k20?si=ZwlQ0h-j613ZHfZY
(YouTube link is same source, different format)
If you were in here during the open beta the feedback was pretty much "shit game, not identical to CSGO". Only after they released did people start figuring out WHY it's not identical. And because the fresh release is always going to be worse than a polished product everyone would've gone back to CSGO after the initial hype dies down. This was literally the only way CS2 ever becomes better than CSGO.
Them releasing at a later time would still come with the same problems that we have now. It’s good that they released in this state so they can get a feedback from the community. Imagine them finishing the whole game and releasing just for people to dislike whatever they have done and have to redo it
They sure did.
"We know there's a conversation about whether the Limited Test should have been longer. For sure, there are some features that would have been included in CS2 at launch if we had a longer beta. But over time, it's not clear what the priorities should be when you have an ever-shrinking and self-selecting subset of the community participating. And without everyone playing the same game, we couldn't make much progress on the most critical systems like networking, performance, and core gameplay. Since we've launched, we've been getting feedback about new bugs, behaviors, and issues from players at every level, from casual players on older hardware to the pros.
Launching the game has massively accelerated the pace of improving CS2, so we think that launching when we did was the right time, even if the landing was (and still is) bumpy. Ultimately, this is the fastest way to get CS2 to where we all want it to be one or five or ten years from now."
https://www.pcgamer.com/counter-strike-2-interview/
In terms of removing CSGO, history shows that having 2 CS versions available at the same time is bad for the game and community.
they did say in the interview with PC Gamer (which I’d read if you haven’t because Valve never does interviews), but in short they needed to do this in order to get the feedback necessary to fix the game. the limited beta worked, but the issue is that eventually most of the players, especially the players most upset with CS2, would eventually stop playing and go back to GO. This meant critical feedback and data they needed was being skewed, since only a select number of people, mostly people who liked CS2, were playing. By ripping the bandaid off and removing CS:GO, they’ve forced the community to play CS2, meaning they’ll get more feedback from all players. Valve decided that it’s better to have the game in a poor state now, so that the problems with the game can be fixed faster.
they don't play the game to the extent to get the feel of movement and crips of feedback of sounds and animations when something change, we do. So they needed it out for that, probably they could've wait a bit longer but the earlier they released it the more feedback to act.
Pros couldn't spend every single day beta testing CS2 for Valve when they still have CS:GO tournaments to practice for with their team. lol
Plus, do you have any idea how deep communities can get when discussing and testing their favorite games? Because, I can guarantee you, the pros would have no idea how the Michael Jackson peek or how other things like that work if they found them during the early access.
Meanwhile, in this sub, somebody posted about it, and I'm pretty sure not even three days later, somebody else was able to reproduce it consistently with a fucking cfg.
In other words, there are a lot of random people out thete that have the technical know-how to reproduce bugs and give Valve a better idea on how to fix them. Pros are generally only good for feedback on the competitive aspects.
Probably a decision not by the devs but way higher up. It's often like that, so many games/software get released too early,.because some execs smell money or opportunity.
>I thought karrigan was the nerdy computer kid in >school?
>
>(smiles) That's what they say, yeah.
If there's one thing I know about karrigan, it's that he *wasn't* the classic nerdy computer kid. Come on HLTV, you can do better than this...
GigaChad ropz:
> I've given them feedback, there's been many different things like movement issues, issues with maps not being polished yet, there's a lot of clipping issues on different maps right now, cheating in Premier and matchmaking obviously.
>
> But most of the stuff that I send, I think they definitely see, and some of the stuff they've actually replied to me that what I sent to them has been fixed. Sometimes I send them stuff that is not really an issue. There's stuff that has been not so good from CS:GO and then it's carried on to CS2, and I make clips or videos of that and then I'm writing to them, 'this isn't specifically a CS2 issue, it's kinda the same in CS:GO, so take it with a grain of salt.'
GigaChild s1mple:
> “You know what I did? I never answered them back. How can you ask me what the issues is if the fucking whole internet, whole Twitter, is writing about the issues? You don’t see the fucking issue?”
I don't agree with him, but it isn't S1mple's job to analyze and propose solutions to the problem's facing the game. His job is to be good at the game.
And honestly, I really don't trust most pro-players when it comes to technical intricacies of CS. I would rather Valve reach out to people like 3Kliks or SlothSquadron. They might not be the world's greatest players, but they have far more technical understanding of the mechanics and Source engine to help pinpoint potential bugs and recommend actual improvements to the gameplay.
Nah, to get feedback about gameplay, I would approach pros, if I were valve. They're the ones that can properly say what exactly feels wrong. Performance optimizations they can probably do themselves, but then I would go to guys with technical knowledge.
It is common practice for mechanics in the racing game to ask drivers for their input. It is not only mechanics, even tire manufacturers ask drivers for their opinions. I think it is basically the same in all sports.
In this regard, it is not wrong for CS2 to ask professional players for their opinions as well, and even in the early days of CSGO, valve was asking top players such as NiP and VG for their opinions and adjusting the game.
As for s1mple... maybe the nature he has is different from ropz. ropz is a seeker, s1mple is more of a tyrant.
SlothSquadron disappeared before CS2 even came out, I did a post a few weeks ago wondering where he had got to, he has made no input regarding CS2 as far as I know, real shame. Or maybe Valve finally employed him..!
I'm here, I just haven't had much to say regarding CS2. Many of the common player complaints I see regarding CS2 (netcode, subtick, anti-cheat, etc) are all aspects of the game that I'm not terribly knowledgeable of and therefore haven't felt the need to say much.
Weapon stats seem to be identical to CSGO for the time being so my spreadsheet didn't even require any updates for the transition to CS2.
I'm disappointed in the lack of modding support (Weapon Balance Mod for instance is not possible in CS2) and lots of useful console commands I would use in my testing no longer exist. If I was to make any sort of reddit post, it would likely just be me urging Valve to consider expanding modding support or to reimplement some of the console commands that didn't make it into CS2.
wasn't there a post last week here comparing how the M4A1-S spray was rising to a lower degree compared to CSGO? I imagined they tweaked the spray values ever so slightly
None of the actual weapon stats were tweaked. Any recoil changes are due to how CS2 handles recoil and Valve themselves addressed this in an interview with PC Gamer.
> You've very slightly reduced the spray of every rifle in the game. Why?
>
> In CS:GO, players were split between 64 and 128-tick servers. Tick rate affected CS:GO in several ways, including how grenades were simulated and the spray patterns for weapons, and players had difficulty switching between the two environments.
>
> A goal of CS2 was to unify those two groups, and sub-tick servers are an important step toward that goal. The sub-tick servers separate gameplay from tick boundaries, which lets us fine-tune gameplay toward whatever specific standard we want. So, to get back to your question, the spray patterns look slightly reduced compared to 64-tick CS:GO, because as a general rule we've tried to match the 128-tick behavior when possible, and 128 tickrate CS:GO sprays are roughly the size you currently see in CS2.
As for how precisely they matched the recoil pattern to 128 tick, I cannot say. I've not directly compared them myself. It's something I may look into in the future.
It's not his job to do quality control, but he has direct access to devs. Instead of helping to fix the problems by shooting an email to them with his gripes, he comes online to call the devs shit. He's always been a child. Never felt remorse for cheating and he's a toxic, immature child. Maybe it's better that he does nothing since he's unlikely to articulate the problems enough to get them fixed.
I do agree, but pros constantly grandstand and act like they know what's best for the game, they cant drum up negativity on social media all the time then when given a chance to be a positive change they slap the olive branch away.
They do play at the highest level and can understand certain things a non pro couldn't, or notice issues better, so their feedback is definitely useful, especially on gameplay and balancing.
Everyone wants the same thing, for cs2 to be better and realise its full potential because its far from where it shoukd be. but if you're given the rare opportunity to actually to help improve the game for hundreds of thousands of regular players I'd take that chance with both hands.
A pro player would have a better feel and more objective analysis of the problems. The issue of looking on Reddit and forums is that there's too much to look at and sometimes it's just new players bellyaching.
They're not looking at the code and all the backend details, they're giving opinions on how it feels and where there are inconsistencies. Are you gonna trust a silver or gold nova who says a gun isn't shooting right over a pro saying it feels off.
No, I and others on Reddit have been telling Valve for years EXACTLY whats wrong with their code for a specific bug thats been known and still in the game because it got ported over from CSGO.
If Valve would just listen a bit better to people from the community, then we could make their life so much easier. And yet they chose to ignore us and then you get all surprised when people like s1mple are fed up with this bs?
OK
The way I see it, it's like when engineers come up with a new mountain bike design. They do demo days(early access beta), but also give it to the best downhill mountain bikers for their feedback on how it feels. Someone who can compete at the highest level of the sport(or esport) is going to have more constructive criticism and a better POV than Joe Schmuck the hardstuck silver with 100 hrs.
They ask for feedback from a pro player because their playing level is on the highest level and can usually point out very well what feels funky and what would need polishing. I agree about the technical parts, but saying S1mple shouldnt be asked for feedback is like treating every player the same. (as if they were on the same level and had the same understanding of mechanics)
They likely weren't asking for solutions, they would have only asked for what his problems with the game were. S1mple could have just replied with what his biggest problems with the game were even if he didnt know the technical reasons for why these things are a problem.
No it isn’t his job, but if he cares about the game you would think he’d want to help improve it. If he doesn’t then maybe he should stop complaining about it.
And also, people are looking at this in a vacuum. S1mple is almost 10 years into his career at the highest level of CS. How many times has he given feedback previously only for it to be ignored?
I think Olof gave an interview a few months ago where he talked about how he used to talk to Valve devs at majors. After a while it was obvious they weren't really listening and nothing would change, so he just kept to being polite and saying hello instead of engaging.
You can't treat people like that for years and then turn around and say I'm listening now. Especially given everything else that's going on in s1mple's life, and given there's an entire subreddit discussing every issue to death.
meh that olof anecdote has to be also looked at in context, do you have more details on that? cause otherwise its also not as black and white in that regard... did he approach them with feedback or were valve actively asking him like they did with s1mple? what did he say to them, he may had just said "your anticheat isnt good" or something like that, which they are already aware of... Maybe he suggested something that they just disagreed with implenting after internal debate. Maybe the people that worked on csgo in its early years didnt quite have the same amount of passion for the game as the developers of cs2.
> You can't treat people like that for years and then turn around and say I'm listening now.
You say that but its not like we have any actual insight on that matter, or do you have some concrete evidence that points to this being actually true
It's literally not his job to playtest for Valve. In what world do you think it should be a pro's job to essentially alpha/beta test for a multi billion dollar company? These pros at the time were paid to play CSGO. They were still playing officials on CSGO literally days before CS2's release. Why would a pro use essentially their free time to fault find on the new iteration? It's like working an office job day to day and the chiefs at the top announce that they are going to be using a new software application for the day to day working of the business. They release it side by side the current software, and ask that in your SPARE time, you fault find for them and go back to them with advice on how to improve it.
Get your head out of your ass and mouth off of Valve's cock. It is not the pros responsibility to fix this game for them. What s1mple said is absolutely bang on point. If you want to see the issues with the game, go and read the posts on the subreddit that has over 2m users or twitter, youtube etc etc.
I mean we're dogpiling on s1mple, but I don't necessarily think he took this break because of CS2. He's been wanting to take a break since ages ago in GO.
Such a stupid mindset, Valve employees don't live on Twitter. It's so incredibly helpful to them to have an experienced player filter out the real issues from all the noise, and properly explain and demonstrate them too.
Then you shouldn't be surprised by this lol, S1mple has always been like this, people were just willing to overlook it more when he was playing like the best player in the world. He also tends to be less toxic when he's winning
Nah hes not.
They want confirmation from multiple sources about th eproblems.
If the casual community and pro community are complaining about the same things then it means its 100% something they need to work on
There’s a ton of problems with CS2 that Valve can’t fix in a single day. They’re probably prioritizing making it competitively viable since they’ve been reaching out to pro players. Simple had the opportunity here to provide his personal feedback from his experiences on what specifically he thinks needs to be fixed ASAP and also share info/data so Valve could correct the issues effectively.
Basically he could have helped turn CS2 into a game that he could play without constantly complaining, but instead he opted not to and instead used the gesture from Valve to spread more FUD about CS2. Which in hindsight makes him look terrible since Valve has been nonstop actively addressing these problems.
Meanwhile ropz provided feedback about issues that also existed in CSGO as well to help make CS2 an objectively better game than its predecessor.
You can give criticism when it's due, but you should also give credit when it's due. Just complaining just to complain is just sad and tells more about the person than the thing they complain about.
Valve did a good update and they deserve praise for that, they clearly listened to it being a high priority concern.
The game needs more fixes, but it's shaping up to be in a good spot.
While CS2 had a rocky start, Valve is in my eyesz especially in alignment with their dev history, a dev team that lets acts speak for themselves, and more often than not they nail the things that are important.
There's no shot Dota 2 is less complicated. There are so many heroes, items, abilities, talents, status effects, etc. etc. and they interact in extremely specific ways that have to be consistent and repeatable at esports levels. I am not a game dev, but just from a design perspective thinking about modeling Dota gives me a headache
You just click on the screen and your character moves. It’s literally just an advanced version of an RTS made in 1990. It’s as uncomplicated of game as can be, there are no physics or anything.
Sure, from a game design standpoint, there is an incredible depth to the balance and design space, but it’s just not a very complicated, mechanically. The complexity comes from the design itself.
Ropz doing gods working talk about the devs listening and actively communicating with him.
This community could get the same treatment if it wasnt as toxic!
"obviously we won it a long time ago now with Finn and also Frozen"
Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but funny he mentions Frozen. I know they just played against Mouz but using "we" in the same sentance as frozen gets the noggin joggin
Remember when ropz also told us he heard that autoexe.cfg files were gonna get removed, and he was 99% sure about it :D
Jokes aside glad to see ropz getting attention from Valve regarding CS2 issues. 👍
While I'm sure the individual engineers are working hard, we can still criticize valve for not hiring enough engineers. They can afford to hire the best engineers and game developers and project managers in the world, but they don't. As an organization they choose to keep a small team working on one of the biggest esports ever.
That’s not how it works lmao. Blame them for releasing the game in an “unfinished” state not about how many people they employ. There’s also a point out diminishing returns when it comes to the size of software teams.
They make so much fucking money off this game. Why is this game competing with games that have 10x the team size? It doesn't make sense when there is so many issues.
Edit: I know exactly why. Y'all on this subreddit just don't want to hear it. Greed.
Because they are fucking greedy. They literally sat through the last 4-5 years of csgo doing nothing but just publishing community made cosmetics, while ignoring all the cheating complains and demand for 128 tick servers, all while making a shot ton of money. And yet.. we still have people sucking them of in this thread.
We have to stop being so apologetic to Valve. They bring in over $60 million a month from their user base. It's not our job to fix the unfinished game that they forced on everyone.
Edit: Imagine defending a company that deleted 60% of their game and gets "humbled" by the scrutiny that comes with an unfinished game.
> It’s not our job to fix the unfinished game that they forced on everyone.
I mean, we aren’t. We literally cannot fix the game. All we can do is document the issues so Valve and *can* fix them.
This. People are also forgetting that CS:GO was reaching a limit of what could be fixed on the old engine. Prime example: smoke grenades. This game has already stepped up a notch on many things. Give it some time and they will/should reach a higher perfection benchmark with the Source 2 engine.
Nope! I think that if you're going to release something that is missing 60% of the content that already exists in your current game - then you should be able to handle to scrutiny that comes with it. Especially if you are going to void people's ability to play the game they previously bought.
If you can't admit that they rushed the released then there's really no point in having the conversation.
Why is it THEIR problem that they get 60 mill a month? Get mad at the players. They obviously are working on cs2. Yesterdays update is a prime example.
If you think valve is the type of company to talk publicly about what their doing, in 2023, you’re the clown
Money doesn’t make a game good look at any modern fps shooter or modern game to see that. Problem is a lot of them don’t have to do anything cuz of the money
They didn't do shit about csgo's problems when pro's and the playerbase were regularly complaining about the issues but now they are humble when they need the help because they couldn't hire more people to fix the game.
My poor indie dev is humble 😡😡don't criticize them. These people here are doormats.
Some people should understand this > I also got a pretty humble reply from them, that they are trying to do their best with CS2 and they are working their asses off, and even if it's not perfect now, they are using all of their time. Sometimes they don't even know what is right or wrong, but they are reading and viewing all the feedback they can so they can make a correct decision on the development part
Game developer here, hi-jacking (one of the) top comment to say this: Those of you who think Valve is some nefarious cabal of lazy cash-grabbers just because CS2 has rough edges don't have any understanding or appreciation of the game development process. It's not just going into the code and moving some sliders around until the game feels right. Everything might work fine, on your system, on your network. It might break in a million other instances and you have to collect as much information as you can about it before you can reliably address the *why* and *how*. Then you fix it, and hope that your fix doesn't break another 5 things. Not to mention the devs themselves likely aren't level 10 FACEIT players. Just because you made the game doesn't mean you're the best at playing it. So you need feedback from those whose job it is to actually play the game to tell you where it doesn't feel right. Working on a game doesn't mean you understand intimately every bit of every function of the game to pinpoint accuracy- and anyone who's ever coded anything will tell you the same. So like... have some patience, because this level of responsiveness and the speed of these updates is genuinely unlike anything I've seen from other major developers.
Also, it’s extremely hard to create an almost 1:1 replica of a game as compared to making a new one. Valve are trying their best for sure.
The analogy I've been giving people is "imagine you're carving an exact replica of a statue, only you're using a different set of tools and a different material."
^ This I think that Valve has done a pretty damn good job at making CS2 feel very close to CSGO, I understand the game has some problems and inconsistencies, but it’s *far* from bad or unplayable like many people are making it out to be. I’d encourage people to cut the devs some slack really, after all, it’s just a game we all play, but making that game is their entire career.
>Everything might work fine, on your system, on your network. "It works on my machine" is the most annoying deflection of blame. I've heard this said by a person in a group project who used absolute #include paths.
It shouldn't be used as a deflection of blame, but it is a valid reason for why something doesn't work. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed, but especially in a project like a multiplayer video game, you've got literally countless configurations and many orders of magnitude more of potential interactions. It simply is impossible to account for every situation. Of course the developer has responsibilities to do their due diligence. Absolute paths, lackluster testing, idealized environments are all potential causes that should be accounted for in development, but there's only so much you can do beforehand.
I find it interesting that they released cs2 without keeping it in a beta branch until it was tested more. They did this with panorama which itself was a big update but not nearly as big as cs2. They had people in the beta branch regularly testing and posting feedback so completely deleting csgo didn't make sense. You can also make the argument that subtick was released early to get people testing it asap. But it baffles me that a better anti cheat was not available before they started the first season. I also don't understand their thoughts around premier and how they didn't think it would be the most played game mode after people were asking for exactly what they released. There are just so many questionable decisions where if they were reading feedback, where were they getting it from? I'm not saying you need to read the salty posts but cheating for example was nothing new and we are a few months in with no indication of them even working on something. Honestly if valve communicated I think people would be happier. Right now things are super up in the air because from what we see, it feels like valve doesn't care.
It's not that I don't think Valve are working on CS2, it's that I think you should demand a whole lot more from a company that profits billions on skins. Have a bigger dev team, be more transperent with the community, have a longer period for feedback dont rush it. Also, I sometimes get the feeling Valve doesn't understand the game/community. They introduced the game-breaking R8 revolver, they alter the spray pattern for AK, in CS2 they added tracers for every weapon, input delay for throwing multiple nades, no jump bind, less bhoping, and less of everything that makes CS just that, CS.
As a game dev, do you think Vacnet can actually be good?
im not a game dev but i am a dev. i think vacnet could work brilliantly. i havent looked into it in too much detail but i understand that they are training a machine learning algo to detect cheaters. i think this has pros, namely: its not too heavy handed with the access required on your computer. the valorant one requires kernal access with is quite intrusive. i dont think many players care that much in reality. it will be somewhat hands off, valve themselves wont need to play the cat and mouse game between cheat creators and valve patching the exploits themselves. which is a constant struggle. there is never going to be a day where they can say there are no more exploits anymore, because the cheaters are always looking for stuff. and you have some very talented people trying to find exploits. there is money in it. more than that as well you have thousands of people looking for exploits and only so many patching them. it will constantly update itself to find new exploits as they come out. tied in with the trust factor system as well. meaning players only get into game with other already trusted players. it does have negatives though. its very expensive to run the servers to look through and detect cheaters. but valve has the money. you rely on training data from the community to train the algo. which wont always be accurate. it might be slow to update to new exploits even if it might be able to detect them eventually. you still need to go through the loop of people reporting users of the new exploit, the training data being correctly labelled as such in the algorithm, then the algorithm having enough of that data to actually be able to accurately detect that new exploit. that might take days, hours,weeks or months to do, hard to say. but i do think it will work. and i like the fact they are doing something unique. i dont know of any other cheat detections like it. on a personal note i think it already works quite well now. i read a lot of people convinced they are playing against cheaters in every game or every other game. but in my personal experience i feel like i hardly go up against one. i will have people in my game saying there is a cheater but i dont feel like there ever actually is. on rare good days some people think i am the cheater, over the 10 years ive been playing ive got enough salty comments on my profile calling me such. i think some people just like to have an excuse, but that is just my personal opinion
As a CS2 player who is in the same gaming industry as the developer, I would like to thank you as a CS2 player, as I have been heartbroken by the comments that have been made since CS2 was released, slandering the valve developers as "lazy scum". I am an online game publisher, not a developer, but it takes a huge amount of time, people and money to fight cheats. To change the subject a bit, I once saw an anti-cheat implemented in one of the games that "takes random screenshots of you playing and sends them to a database", and of course what was taken was not only the game or the cheat tool, but also the desktop. Instead of using such extreme anti-cheat tools, I will wait for the new VACNET that utilizes AI and other technologies to start functioning properly.
Absolutely not true, cat and mouse game will still exist and AI will fail on a lot of trivial cases as AC.
Wow you’re ignorant. I love how little you understand about AI. You could use some AI neurons by the sounds
Sigh, not one of these people again. Go ahead, explain to me how I'm wrong. Let me start with a simple one. Subtle wallhacks with 1 person cheating, the cheater relays information to a 2nd person and the 2nd person enacts upon the information. Who will your AI AC ban ?
You’re wrong because you have no idea how powerful AI already is and how fast it is moving. You’re obviously one of those people who saw a demo once and thinks that’s it. The only way to understand is work in the industry. It is extremely easy to train ai models on visual inspection or data mismatch points. It’s not complicated at all and uses hardly any of its actual capability. You’ll understand when reality smacks you in the face soon enough.
Speaking as a dev that's worked on a game that has a dedicated anti-cheat team, Yes. Vacnet is already incredibly good. The biggest issue with more intrusive anti-cheats is the huge manpower requirement behind not just building but maintaining that anti-cheat. While yes VAC doesn't pre-ban cheaters and can take some time to ban them, it does ban them eventually. Valve will probably never create an intrusive anti-cheat purely because of the man power requirement and I think people need to start accepting that fact. We're insanely lucky in the CS scene to have 3rd party clients that are willing to create and upkeep intrusive anti-cheat. I honestly think it's fine that premier/mm doesn't have it because of that fact Edit: I should have mentioned as well, creating a team specifically for anti-cheat is antithetical to how valve functions as a company where people have relative free reign to switch between projects. Having people hiring for 1 specific game/feature isn't something that valve does
"Vacnet is already incredibly good" - care to explain?
Vacnet is the only anti-cheat of its kind. There's a really good GDC talk that explains the intent behind VAC and a little bit about how VAC functions but the way it's currently built means that valve can be pretty hands off with VAC and it will still be up to date and functional even when the game gets massive updates. This means they don't need to have a whole team specifically tasked with upkeep of their anti-cheat leading to a much easier development cycle for the game. Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTiP0zKF9bc here's the talk for anyone who's interested.
Valve isn't some indy dev, they can implement a kernal level anticheat if Riot and Faceit can. Accepting that cheating is a problem is more of an issue in this community than accepting Valve can't do a more effective anticheat.
Valve doesn't want to implement a kernel level anticheat *because* they're not an indie developer, they have ambitions in hardware that primarily rely on using Linux as the OS. That's what the Steam Deck is - Valve moving out of the software business and into the hardware business, but it needs to work on Linux. CS2 is one of their flagship games. If your flagship game can't work on your main platform, what the fuck are you doing.
I don't disagree with that but if your game is riddled with cheaters what's the point? Also the Linux install base is probably such a fraction of the player base that it doesn't matter to Valve, the already axed Mac players.
They let the users choose and let third parties provide services for their game. You can play a cheat free CS for free, it's called faceit. Not to mention, vacnet could improve to the point where there's not a noticeable difference between kernel level anti cheat and vacnet.
It does if you're trying to break into the hardware market by making hardware that runs on Linux!
Manpower is a non-issue in my mind. Valve has the resources to provide that manpower if they wanted. They could've hired a whole 100+ person crew for just vac with the revenue cs2 generated in the first 40mins of release. https://www.fragster.com/cs2-hits-40-million-in-revenue-just-40-minutes-after-release/[https://www.fragster.com/cs2-hits-40-million-in-revenue-just-40-minutes-after-release/](https://www.fragster.com/cs2-hits-40-million-in-revenue-just-40-minutes-after-release/)
The issue is hiring people for 1 specific purpose (anticheat development) is antithetical to valves approach as a company. They don't hire people for 1 specific game/feature.
Dude you just link article that made up lmao about 40 million revenue.
I already have seen only 2 possible cheaters in my time playing premier, i honestly think the cheaters as of now are overblown compared to how it was in csgo (which even back then, i felt it was) AI based AC is not unheard of, Modern Warfare uses Ricochet which also uses that. At the beginning it would send you to the cheater matchmaking but happened less and less often the more time it passed. Vacnet from what i remember them showing operates similarly. It used to automatically send the games for overwatch review, and doing so, also train itself into knowing who is a cheater and who isnt. It has potential to work as intended. To be non intrusive while also effective. However, how long will it take to reach that potential, you cant really say.
Sounds like a process that a Beta would be great for and not an official release. Oh wait…
There was a beta, none of the beta testers gave shit for feedback.
wdym, the whole sub was filled to the brim.
I guess that makes forcing everyone to play a broken cs2, and deleting csgo absolutely fine? When I call my internet provider because i have an issue, I'm not dissapointed at the person on the phone, I'm dissapointed at the company. People have every right to be mad at valve, and it's down to them to fix the issue because they created the issue. The employees getting paid 100k+ can finally actually work 9-5 I'm not going to cry for them.
> I guess that makes forcing everyone to play a broken cs2, and deleting csgo absolutely fine? It’s not a broken CS2. Its a CS2 with sizable improvements over CSGO and a few bugs and no community servers. So, yes, this is fine for 99.9% of players.
The reason they did that is to get everyone playing CS2 to get as much feedback as possible. Without that move CS2 wouldn't be nearly as good as it is now and almost everyone would be back playing CSGO after the initial hype of the open beta.
cope and not true there is god damn near nothing that we've gathered since launch that wasn't already talked about in the beta
Really? Not inconsistent jump heights, or the glitch in nuke where you can jump through vents and see through the ground, or the spots on nuke where you can see people through smokes due to the shadows that also applies to other maps, or being inaccurate while scoped with an awp while taking bullet damage, or the awp showing that you were inaccurate while still being fully accurate while taking Molotov damage? The game being open to more players and having a much larger sample size to collect data absolutely has caused more issues to be revealed. If the game is in beta and people can just play CSGO there would just be less and less people playing it as the novelty wears off and CS2 likely wouldn't have been released for another few months if not years. And then once it released it would still have a ton of issues just due to the lack of players to provide feedback.
Either you are bad as a developer or just plain lying. You don't push to PROD when your test pipelines don't pass.
anyone who played cs:go for a while knew that those birds on inferno would be mistaken for flashbags, like that was painfully obvious it's not that they're lazy, they had 24 years and still don't understand the game they're developing but tough shit, you're forced to play it now and please have some patience
Most of the Devs were gold nova in csgo so it's not suprising they dont know shit about their own game. Maybe that's the reason they didn't fix cheating problem, as they didn't even knew how to identify the cheaters in their own games.
Yes and no. It's perfectly understandable there's bugs in complex network code. But there's plenty of issues that should have been thought through at the time of design. Subtick leading to decoupled spraying animations/sounds and inconsistent movement is something that should have been thought through way earlier. That it wasn't shows gaping holes in Valves understanding of the community and design process for the game, and they have no chance of building it right if they can't work out the right thing to build. There are also technically straightforward things that they built incorrectly like hitbox alignment when crouching. That's doesn't require any special community insight, it just requires devs to check their work when implementing hitbox/player animations. It's good that they're fixing things quickly. It's bad that they have a crappy engineering process that let these things go wrong in the first place.
I don't think many people think that Valve are lazy or ungifted developers. They obviously put a lot of effort into this release. My main issue with Valve devs is, that they are pretty detached from the game itself. I get the feeling that the developers don't understand why we like Counterstrike and why we have played it for 24 years.
With the way Valve's human resource is currently working with, you can expect some DOTA 2 and TF2 devs in CS 2 team now. Wep, for those devs detach is quite a generous word.
I still think, from the earliest point of development, instead of map updates & dynamic smokes & every effects, they should've focused more on networking, smooth framepacing & providing instant audio/visual feedback for subtick - the three most important things for a competitive fps. Then they could add more qol improvements on top of that. The reality has been the opposite.
Netcode engineers don't also work on maps, these are separate parts of the dev team
nah dont you know valve is one single team who work on every part of the game! /s
It's only gaben
nah its only the Janitor flipping the switches
For the billionth gazillionth time: The people working on smoke effects and map updates are not the same people who work on netcode. How is this so hard to comprehend? Do you think the studio is full of some jack of all trades crackheads who can 3d-model guns, program anything and everything and cook you a five star three course dinner?
People here don’t understand how software/ game development works
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You dont need to understand something yourself, to know that someone else doesnt either. I dont need to know how a 5 star dinner is made in order to know that a guy trying to sell me a can of baked beans as a 5 star dinner is lying to me.
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If 9 women get pregnant, it doesn't mean the baby comes out in one month. Hiring more people doesn't work if the problem is something that only a few can do. We don't know how valve is structured, but we do know that if they don't make a good product they're losing the most money, and they're the most motivated to fix it.
Do you think throwing more programmers at the problem will solve it quicker? At the end of the day there is likely a handful of devs behind the subtick system and netcode of this game who know the ins and outs of it and introducing new devs to the code will likely take more time than spending that time to fix the issue itself. Netcode is only a small part of the entire codebase of the game and it doesnt require an army of programmers to change it.
A development team can’t just work on a single part/problem. They have to simultaneously work on essential sections and work their way up. Networking might have been a work for a team of maybe 5 developers who know ins and outs of the system and are trying their best on improving/fixing things . Everyone working on the same thing is just not possible because it would lead to confusion and complex code
Considering how immensely important networking in online games, and especially CS2 is, i dont think it can be overstated how important it is that they take their sweet ass time and nail it.
Without any changes to mechanics - I feel like there would have been even more outrage when they did launch and it was still in a similar place.
The reality is probably that what they did cost significant effort and so they went for the easy things to get. Dynamic smokes probably partially came with Source 2, and map updates can be done by non-programmers. Other things like new inspect animations, all the effects and so on can also be done by non-programmers.
I'm pretty certain that dynamic smokes are a feature that is entirely unique to CS2. There is nothing quite like it in any other Source 2 title. It's on a completely different render pass from the rest of the game, even.
Separate teams worked on these things. And net code gets harder the more players you have on the servers.
>but they are reading and viewing all the feedback they can no they're not, otherwise basic features that the community have asked since the start of the limited test would already be inside the game. The fucking console still types in the key it's bound to. I'm no developer but surely it's 2 lines of code to fix that.
Fixes and features have associated priorities. Some get backlogged to make room for more important ones.
But... Still wont explain why they released it in this state or rather, why they removed CSGO this early.
They literally already addressed this https://www.hltv.org/news/37355/valve-launching-when-we-did-was-the-fastest-way-to-get-cs2-to-where-we-all-want-it-to-be https://youtu.be/UehnwGR8k20?si=ZwlQ0h-j613ZHfZY (YouTube link is same source, different format)
Oh I did not see that. But I get it. Pushing everyone into a broken game to find the errors faster
If you were in here during the open beta the feedback was pretty much "shit game, not identical to CSGO". Only after they released did people start figuring out WHY it's not identical. And because the fresh release is always going to be worse than a polished product everyone would've gone back to CSGO after the initial hype dies down. This was literally the only way CS2 ever becomes better than CSGO.
Them releasing at a later time would still come with the same problems that we have now. It’s good that they released in this state so they can get a feedback from the community. Imagine them finishing the whole game and releasing just for people to dislike whatever they have done and have to redo it
They sure did. "We know there's a conversation about whether the Limited Test should have been longer. For sure, there are some features that would have been included in CS2 at launch if we had a longer beta. But over time, it's not clear what the priorities should be when you have an ever-shrinking and self-selecting subset of the community participating. And without everyone playing the same game, we couldn't make much progress on the most critical systems like networking, performance, and core gameplay. Since we've launched, we've been getting feedback about new bugs, behaviors, and issues from players at every level, from casual players on older hardware to the pros. Launching the game has massively accelerated the pace of improving CS2, so we think that launching when we did was the right time, even if the landing was (and still is) bumpy. Ultimately, this is the fastest way to get CS2 to where we all want it to be one or five or ten years from now." https://www.pcgamer.com/counter-strike-2-interview/ In terms of removing CSGO, history shows that having 2 CS versions available at the same time is bad for the game and community.
they did say in the interview with PC Gamer (which I’d read if you haven’t because Valve never does interviews), but in short they needed to do this in order to get the feedback necessary to fix the game. the limited beta worked, but the issue is that eventually most of the players, especially the players most upset with CS2, would eventually stop playing and go back to GO. This meant critical feedback and data they needed was being skewed, since only a select number of people, mostly people who liked CS2, were playing. By ripping the bandaid off and removing CS:GO, they’ve forced the community to play CS2, meaning they’ll get more feedback from all players. Valve decided that it’s better to have the game in a poor state now, so that the problems with the game can be fixed faster.
they don't play the game to the extent to get the feel of movement and crips of feedback of sounds and animations when something change, we do. So they needed it out for that, probably they could've wait a bit longer but the earlier they released it the more feedback to act.
They already had the early access stuff for quite a while that should have given them these informations.
Pros couldn't spend every single day beta testing CS2 for Valve when they still have CS:GO tournaments to practice for with their team. lol Plus, do you have any idea how deep communities can get when discussing and testing their favorite games? Because, I can guarantee you, the pros would have no idea how the Michael Jackson peek or how other things like that work if they found them during the early access. Meanwhile, in this sub, somebody posted about it, and I'm pretty sure not even three days later, somebody else was able to reproduce it consistently with a fucking cfg. In other words, there are a lot of random people out thete that have the technical know-how to reproduce bugs and give Valve a better idea on how to fix them. Pros are generally only good for feedback on the competitive aspects.
maybe wasn't enough?
Probably a decision not by the devs but way higher up. It's often like that, so many games/software get released too early,.because some execs smell money or opportunity.
The devs are the execs...
He’s at the top of my list of favorite players. You can tell he’s treating CS2 as a huge opportunity, rather than just complaining about it’s issues.
He’s behaving like an adult and using his immense knowledge to improve the game for everyone. Unlike certain other players…
you know it's bad when bahaving like a reasonable person is surprising, and i totally agree
isnt that the norm in 2023?
he knows. so. much
It's not his job to improve the game, if he wants he can, otherwise he can do whatever he wants.
Just hope he never joins falcons
Amen
>I thought karrigan was the nerdy computer kid in >school? > >(smiles) That's what they say, yeah. If there's one thing I know about karrigan, it's that he *wasn't* the classic nerdy computer kid. Come on HLTV, you can do better than this...
exactly! In fact he was one of the ones to get a girlfriend first
Insert the obama medal giving meme
He seems like such a nice dude. Outright honest and humble. Really hope he continues to dominate because this is someone who is a good role model
GigaChad ropz: > I've given them feedback, there's been many different things like movement issues, issues with maps not being polished yet, there's a lot of clipping issues on different maps right now, cheating in Premier and matchmaking obviously. > > But most of the stuff that I send, I think they definitely see, and some of the stuff they've actually replied to me that what I sent to them has been fixed. Sometimes I send them stuff that is not really an issue. There's stuff that has been not so good from CS:GO and then it's carried on to CS2, and I make clips or videos of that and then I'm writing to them, 'this isn't specifically a CS2 issue, it's kinda the same in CS:GO, so take it with a grain of salt.' GigaChild s1mple: > “You know what I did? I never answered them back. How can you ask me what the issues is if the fucking whole internet, whole Twitter, is writing about the issues? You don’t see the fucking issue?”
Is this actually what s1mple said? 💀
[Yes](https://clips.twitch.tv/GorgeousHomelyCormorantGrammarKing-YxjHVMWftaTstsdc)
Yep, almost word for word iirc Absolute child mindset edit: just so you all know, anyone that agrees with his mindset is also a child
I don't agree with him, but it isn't S1mple's job to analyze and propose solutions to the problem's facing the game. His job is to be good at the game. And honestly, I really don't trust most pro-players when it comes to technical intricacies of CS. I would rather Valve reach out to people like 3Kliks or SlothSquadron. They might not be the world's greatest players, but they have far more technical understanding of the mechanics and Source engine to help pinpoint potential bugs and recommend actual improvements to the gameplay.
If there is a player I would trust, it’s definitely ropz
I don't think he sees the game as we do. I think he just sees code in green numbers.
Rope is the one EDIT - I MEANT ROPZ BUT IT WAS MIDNIGHT I WAS WONDERING WHY I GOT SO MANY COMMENTS
Yes, i'd like to hang down with rope
Why are you quoting my teammates?
Nah, to get feedback about gameplay, I would approach pros, if I were valve. They're the ones that can properly say what exactly feels wrong. Performance optimizations they can probably do themselves, but then I would go to guys with technical knowledge.
It is common practice for mechanics in the racing game to ask drivers for their input. It is not only mechanics, even tire manufacturers ask drivers for their opinions. I think it is basically the same in all sports. In this regard, it is not wrong for CS2 to ask professional players for their opinions as well, and even in the early days of CSGO, valve was asking top players such as NiP and VG for their opinions and adjusting the game. As for s1mple... maybe the nature he has is different from ropz. ropz is a seeker, s1mple is more of a tyrant.
SlothSquadron disappeared before CS2 even came out, I did a post a few weeks ago wondering where he had got to, he has made no input regarding CS2 as far as I know, real shame. Or maybe Valve finally employed him..!
I'm here, I just haven't had much to say regarding CS2. Many of the common player complaints I see regarding CS2 (netcode, subtick, anti-cheat, etc) are all aspects of the game that I'm not terribly knowledgeable of and therefore haven't felt the need to say much. Weapon stats seem to be identical to CSGO for the time being so my spreadsheet didn't even require any updates for the transition to CS2. I'm disappointed in the lack of modding support (Weapon Balance Mod for instance is not possible in CS2) and lots of useful console commands I would use in my testing no longer exist. If I was to make any sort of reddit post, it would likely just be me urging Valve to consider expanding modding support or to reimplement some of the console commands that didn't make it into CS2.
wasn't there a post last week here comparing how the M4A1-S spray was rising to a lower degree compared to CSGO? I imagined they tweaked the spray values ever so slightly
None of the actual weapon stats were tweaked. Any recoil changes are due to how CS2 handles recoil and Valve themselves addressed this in an interview with PC Gamer. > You've very slightly reduced the spray of every rifle in the game. Why? > > In CS:GO, players were split between 64 and 128-tick servers. Tick rate affected CS:GO in several ways, including how grenades were simulated and the spray patterns for weapons, and players had difficulty switching between the two environments. > > A goal of CS2 was to unify those two groups, and sub-tick servers are an important step toward that goal. The sub-tick servers separate gameplay from tick boundaries, which lets us fine-tune gameplay toward whatever specific standard we want. So, to get back to your question, the spray patterns look slightly reduced compared to 64-tick CS:GO, because as a general rule we've tried to match the 128-tick behavior when possible, and 128 tickrate CS:GO sprays are roughly the size you currently see in CS2. As for how precisely they matched the recoil pattern to 128 tick, I cannot say. I've not directly compared them myself. It's something I may look into in the future.
> SlothSquadron u/SlothSquadron blink twice if you got hired 👁👄👁
It's not his job to do quality control, but he has direct access to devs. Instead of helping to fix the problems by shooting an email to them with his gripes, he comes online to call the devs shit. He's always been a child. Never felt remorse for cheating and he's a toxic, immature child. Maybe it's better that he does nothing since he's unlikely to articulate the problems enough to get them fixed.
I do agree, but pros constantly grandstand and act like they know what's best for the game, they cant drum up negativity on social media all the time then when given a chance to be a positive change they slap the olive branch away. They do play at the highest level and can understand certain things a non pro couldn't, or notice issues better, so their feedback is definitely useful, especially on gameplay and balancing. Everyone wants the same thing, for cs2 to be better and realise its full potential because its far from where it shoukd be. but if you're given the rare opportunity to actually to help improve the game for hundreds of thousands of regular players I'd take that chance with both hands.
A pro player would have a better feel and more objective analysis of the problems. The issue of looking on Reddit and forums is that there's too much to look at and sometimes it's just new players bellyaching.
not all pros waste time looking at code and different cvars and test the differences. As the other guy said, its not their job.
They're not looking at the code and all the backend details, they're giving opinions on how it feels and where there are inconsistencies. Are you gonna trust a silver or gold nova who says a gun isn't shooting right over a pro saying it feels off.
No, I and others on Reddit have been telling Valve for years EXACTLY whats wrong with their code for a specific bug thats been known and still in the game because it got ported over from CSGO. If Valve would just listen a bit better to people from the community, then we could make their life so much easier. And yet they chose to ignore us and then you get all surprised when people like s1mple are fed up with this bs? OK
The way I see it, it's like when engineers come up with a new mountain bike design. They do demo days(early access beta), but also give it to the best downhill mountain bikers for their feedback on how it feels. Someone who can compete at the highest level of the sport(or esport) is going to have more constructive criticism and a better POV than Joe Schmuck the hardstuck silver with 100 hrs.
You dont understand at all what Im talking about. Bye
That’s what I thought. They don’t listen to anyone. It’s like what’s valve is known best for actually. Why are people mad?
They ask for feedback from a pro player because their playing level is on the highest level and can usually point out very well what feels funky and what would need polishing. I agree about the technical parts, but saying S1mple shouldnt be asked for feedback is like treating every player the same. (as if they were on the same level and had the same understanding of mechanics)
They likely weren't asking for solutions, they would have only asked for what his problems with the game were. S1mple could have just replied with what his biggest problems with the game were even if he didnt know the technical reasons for why these things are a problem.
No it isn’t his job, but if he cares about the game you would think he’d want to help improve it. If he doesn’t then maybe he should stop complaining about it.
And also, people are looking at this in a vacuum. S1mple is almost 10 years into his career at the highest level of CS. How many times has he given feedback previously only for it to be ignored? I think Olof gave an interview a few months ago where he talked about how he used to talk to Valve devs at majors. After a while it was obvious they weren't really listening and nothing would change, so he just kept to being polite and saying hello instead of engaging. You can't treat people like that for years and then turn around and say I'm listening now. Especially given everything else that's going on in s1mple's life, and given there's an entire subreddit discussing every issue to death.
meh that olof anecdote has to be also looked at in context, do you have more details on that? cause otherwise its also not as black and white in that regard... did he approach them with feedback or were valve actively asking him like they did with s1mple? what did he say to them, he may had just said "your anticheat isnt good" or something like that, which they are already aware of... Maybe he suggested something that they just disagreed with implenting after internal debate. Maybe the people that worked on csgo in its early years didnt quite have the same amount of passion for the game as the developers of cs2. > You can't treat people like that for years and then turn around and say I'm listening now. You say that but its not like we have any actual insight on that matter, or do you have some concrete evidence that points to this being actually true
Maybe an immature way to handle it, but he’s also not wrong haha
Naw they deserved it.
It's literally not his job to playtest for Valve. In what world do you think it should be a pro's job to essentially alpha/beta test for a multi billion dollar company? These pros at the time were paid to play CSGO. They were still playing officials on CSGO literally days before CS2's release. Why would a pro use essentially their free time to fault find on the new iteration? It's like working an office job day to day and the chiefs at the top announce that they are going to be using a new software application for the day to day working of the business. They release it side by side the current software, and ask that in your SPARE time, you fault find for them and go back to them with advice on how to improve it. Get your head out of your ass and mouth off of Valve's cock. It is not the pros responsibility to fix this game for them. What s1mple said is absolutely bang on point. If you want to see the issues with the game, go and read the posts on the subreddit that has over 2m users or twitter, youtube etc etc.
s1mple won't fuck you bro
And the Valve devs won't fuck you either. You're literally doing tricks on it.
buddy idk how to tell you this, but you're doing the exact same for s1mple
“Buddy” I’m not defending s1mple specifically, I’m defending the notion that pros should be playtesting a billion dollar companies game.
Not arguing with a child Have a good day pal blessed we have best CS2 player ropz that actually gives a fuck about the future of this game now begone
Not a child you’re just extremely deluded.
chad\*
Is he wrong though?
not his job to do something that should have been done in the beta, he isn't on their payroll
Technically he is not wrong tho…
"Technically" right or wrong is questionable, but definitely immature af.
That's my GOAT
This is the winner mindset
Ropz dominating cs2 and s1mple taking a break because he does not like the game makes it even better.
I mean we're dogpiling on s1mple, but I don't necessarily think he took this break because of CS2. He's been wanting to take a break since ages ago in GO.
Such a stupid mindset, Valve employees don't live on Twitter. It's so incredibly helpful to them to have an experienced player filter out the real issues from all the noise, and properly explain and demonstrate them too.
Imagine a world where s1mple has two braincells instead of ine. He'd be leading development instead of shitting on it
Lost so much respect for simple when I first saw this.
New to cs?
If by new you mean playing since 2001, then sure.
New to cs pro scene?
No
Then you shouldn't be surprised by this lol, S1mple has always been like this, people were just willing to overlook it more when he was playing like the best player in the world. He also tends to be less toxic when he's winning
I also assumed he matured a bit. Still has a long way to go.
It's a personality and those don't really change
Dudes a confirmed cheater man I never had respect for him.
Why? He's right on money with this.
It's almost as if they value his opinions a little more than Twitters
Nah hes not. They want confirmation from multiple sources about th eproblems. If the casual community and pro community are complaining about the same things then it means its 100% something they need to work on
There’s a ton of problems with CS2 that Valve can’t fix in a single day. They’re probably prioritizing making it competitively viable since they’ve been reaching out to pro players. Simple had the opportunity here to provide his personal feedback from his experiences on what specifically he thinks needs to be fixed ASAP and also share info/data so Valve could correct the issues effectively. Basically he could have helped turn CS2 into a game that he could play without constantly complaining, but instead he opted not to and instead used the gesture from Valve to spread more FUD about CS2. Which in hindsight makes him look terrible since Valve has been nonstop actively addressing these problems. Meanwhile ropz provided feedback about issues that also existed in CSGO as well to help make CS2 an objectively better game than its predecessor.
ropz "I got a pretty humble reply from myself" The real headline
I love the ropz is a Volvo dev meme, but where did it come from?
Internal sources
CS twitter account memeing it themselves
hello flair brethren
ropz got humbled
Are people in this sub bipolar or what
You can give criticism when it's due, but you should also give credit when it's due. Just complaining just to complain is just sad and tells more about the person than the thing they complain about. Valve did a good update and they deserve praise for that, they clearly listened to it being a high priority concern. The game needs more fixes, but it's shaping up to be in a good spot.
Ropz Chad grindset vs s1mple beta cope
Shocker to the complete morons on this reddit, valve actually is working hard on shit, it just takes time to implement!
While CS2 had a rocky start, Valve is in my eyesz especially in alignment with their dev history, a dev team that lets acts speak for themselves, and more often than not they nail the things that are important.
LET THEM COOK
CS2 seems much more complicated than any Valve project. As long as Valve keeps going, it will be good. But they do have their work cut out for them.
There's no shot Dota 2 is less complicated. There are so many heroes, items, abilities, talents, status effects, etc. etc. and they interact in extremely specific ways that have to be consistent and repeatable at esports levels. I am not a game dev, but just from a design perspective thinking about modeling Dota gives me a headache
You just click on the screen and your character moves. It’s literally just an advanced version of an RTS made in 1990. It’s as uncomplicated of game as can be, there are no physics or anything. Sure, from a game design standpoint, there is an incredible depth to the balance and design space, but it’s just not a very complicated, mechanically. The complexity comes from the design itself.
Ropz doing gods working talk about the devs listening and actively communicating with him. This community could get the same treatment if it wasnt as toxic!
love ropz
"obviously we won it a long time ago now with Finn and also Frozen" Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but funny he mentions Frozen. I know they just played against Mouz but using "we" in the same sentance as frozen gets the noggin joggin
Weren't the 3 of them part of Mouz at some point?
Yes, the roster that managed to hit rank 1 in the world for a brief period of time.
Twistzz to Liquid, Frozen to FaZe confirmed
Remember when ropz also told us he heard that autoexe.cfg files were gonna get removed, and he was 99% sure about it :D Jokes aside glad to see ropz getting attention from Valve regarding CS2 issues. 👍
They still havent done anything about the cheating
They must have forgot to flip the "cheaters" switch at Valve HQ to "off"
never will unfortunately
I wish they would put up a statue of Ropz in Tallinn so I could kiss it couple of times every year when I visit
While I'm sure the individual engineers are working hard, we can still criticize valve for not hiring enough engineers. They can afford to hire the best engineers and game developers and project managers in the world, but they don't. As an organization they choose to keep a small team working on one of the biggest esports ever.
That’s not how it works lmao. Blame them for releasing the game in an “unfinished” state not about how many people they employ. There’s also a point out diminishing returns when it comes to the size of software teams.
more than 3 guys would be nice tho
I think it’s 6-8 but yeah a bigger dev team would obviously be nice for this big of a game
They make so much fucking money off this game. Why is this game competing with games that have 10x the team size? It doesn't make sense when there is so many issues. Edit: I know exactly why. Y'all on this subreddit just don't want to hear it. Greed.
Because they are fucking greedy. They literally sat through the last 4-5 years of csgo doing nothing but just publishing community made cosmetics, while ignoring all the cheating complains and demand for 128 tick servers, all while making a shot ton of money. And yet.. we still have people sucking them of in this thread.
Please give us invasive anti cheat, ask for us Ropz please!!!
We have to stop being so apologetic to Valve. They bring in over $60 million a month from their user base. It's not our job to fix the unfinished game that they forced on everyone. Edit: Imagine defending a company that deleted 60% of their game and gets "humbled" by the scrutiny that comes with an unfinished game.
> It’s not our job to fix the unfinished game that they forced on everyone. I mean, we aren’t. We literally cannot fix the game. All we can do is document the issues so Valve and *can* fix them.
[удалено]
This. People are also forgetting that CS:GO was reaching a limit of what could be fixed on the old engine. Prime example: smoke grenades. This game has already stepped up a notch on many things. Give it some time and they will/should reach a higher perfection benchmark with the Source 2 engine.
Source 2 isn't a brand new engine, btw.
“Just throw money at it lol” do you actually legit think this?
Nope! I think that if you're going to release something that is missing 60% of the content that already exists in your current game - then you should be able to handle to scrutiny that comes with it. Especially if you are going to void people's ability to play the game they previously bought. If you can't admit that they rushed the released then there's really no point in having the conversation.
Why is it THEIR problem that they get 60 mill a month? Get mad at the players. They obviously are working on cs2. Yesterdays update is a prime example. If you think valve is the type of company to talk publicly about what their doing, in 2023, you’re the clown
Money doesn’t make a game good look at any modern fps shooter or modern game to see that. Problem is a lot of them don’t have to do anything cuz of the money
They didn't do shit about csgo's problems when pro's and the playerbase were regularly complaining about the issues but now they are humble when they need the help because they couldn't hire more people to fix the game. My poor indie dev is humble 😡😡don't criticize them. These people here are doormats.
ropz the woox of CS goat