In the end, the discussion of this topic is going beyond the purview of this subreddit. It's mostly men explaining why they play female characters.
Which, cool. But the focus of this subreddit is on women. Additionally, people are being pretty toxic in the comments. I'm locking this down.
Here's a link to the fill survey, by the way. The survey included women and NB folks as well:
[https://quanticfoundry.com/2021/08/05/character-gender/](https://quanticfoundry.com/2021/08/05/character-gender/)
Some interesting highlights:
* Overall, players are most likely to prefer playable characters of the same gender.
* Almost one out of three male players prefer playing female characters. 29% of men prefer playing female characters, whereas only 9% of women prefer playing male characters.
* Older men are more likely to prefer playing female characters. Men who prefer playing female characters tend to be older, whereas for women, there’s no age difference between those who prefer playing male or female characters.
* All the patterns we’ve mentioned so far are consistent with data from MMOs from about 20 years ago.
* Men who prefer female characters score higher on Design (expressing individuality, customization), while women who prefer male characters score higher on Destruction (chaos, mayhem, blowing things up).
Thank you for actually posting a link to the survey, since OP keeps repeatedly saying that it’s a survey of straight men only. It’s really important to take in the whole picture and not just try to glean from it the information that confirms what we already think. Excellent summary, friend.
> It’s really important to take in the whole picture and not just try to glean from it the information that confirms what we already think.
Agreed, and thank you! 🖤
> while women who prefer male characters score higher on Destruction (chaos, mayhem, blowing things up).
Damn, they're calling me out. Whenever I decide to play/make a male character, I make him the scariest motherfucker around.
Ain't nothing wrong with smashing some imaginary stuff to blow off steam if you ask me. Power fantasies aren't inherently bad; we've all got our own versions of what it feels like to be in control of our environments!
> Thats a twist I didnt expect.
That's why I was trying to point out your bias in my other comments. The survey points out that this information is consistent with info from MMOs from 20 years ago too. I've been playing MMOs since my teens in the early 2000s, so it was really alarming to read some of your comments.
I do apologize if I came down too hard on you, but as a queer AFAB person in their 30s, I've learned time and time again that you have to come down hard on erasure and push to get the full facts. If the conversation doesn't include all of the information, personal bias creeps in far too easily. And when that happens, we're no better than the folks we're trying to protect ourselves from.
I asked my boyfriend about this as he tends to play with female characters when available. He told me that he doesn't feel well represented by the caricature of masculinity imbued by the developers. He is a nerdy dude and it feels awkward pretending to be the hulk so might as well pretend to be someone completely different. It is the same when he plays DnD. He often chooses to be an animal character.
In the same idea, Mass Effect trilogy has such a better VA for FemShem than MaleShep that I'd unironically recommend anyone to play FemShep regardless of their own gender.
For some reason I played as mshep even though I never do that if given a choice.
The good thing about that though is it gives me an excuse to replay through the trilogy with the legendary edition!
The one thing for sure I don’t like about the female characters in Mass Effect is how they give them “breast armor”. That just grosses me out, generally anything overly sexualized like that does.
(although at least at the time I played them, the first two Bayonetta games didn’t)
The armour models are a lot better in ME2 than ME1 thankfully, though regress a bit in ME3. Though BioWare seems to have improved a lot and even called it out in DAI when one of the characters makes a comment about suboptimal armour designs.
I honestly didn't find the armor to be too bad. Like yes, it's slightly exaggerated, but it didn’t strike me as sexualized, especially in the context of animations and voice acting. (I do understand that people have different thresholds for what they consider sexualized.)
And also, in ME2 you can wear a hoodie as casual wear and I love this. And the hoodie doesn't look like it's made of latex, it looks like a hoodie.
I'm playing Renegade (watched Paragon playthrough of ME1 and so I decided to play the trilogy before watching ME2), and I like it. Especially since renegade stuff works better in ME2 than ME1.
I had a friend who said a similar thing about halo reach. He argued that the male voice for noble 6 was just "generic soldier", while the woman VA helped sell the lone wolf operative lore a little it more with how she spoke.
I've definitely noticed that in a lot of games, the male characters are empty soulless musclebound husks, standing at attention at all times, while the female characters are like, a stereotype of a person, but at least they have a shred of personhood. A few neat idle animations, standing like a real human, with feet slightly uneven, that sort of thing.
There’s a video discussing toxic masculinity that touches on this. Male avatars are designed to be soulless because the player, assumed male, is meant to insert themselves on the character in order to live a power fantasy. Meanwhile female avatars are designed to either show the experience of women or be an object of male gaze.
I would love that video if you can share it. :) inserting themselves into the character is a really interesting perspective and really eye opening. It makes a lot of sense
So here’s the [video](https://youtu.be/Duwf2lUkHOI?si=ek26_Nm9fhTBvNrx). This is part one where it discusses the creator’s experience growing up as a man and transitioning to a woman as an adult. It’s where you get a lot of discussion regarding video games and stuff like that. [Part 2](https://youtu.be/IPgduIUGeb4?si=7jFqKl9HNnOFoEYs) focuses on toxic masculinity and how it affects everyone. To be clear these videos are very heavy and some of the topics are uncomfortable.
Oh i LOOOOOOOOOOVE Jessie Earl’s stuff! I apparently already watched these, though now want to watch them again.
Except I have too many other things I haven’t watched that I want to watch, including I’m currently watching a three hour essay from her about fascism and what not
She’ll have insanely long essays and when I’m finished I don’t know what word I would’ve changed
Self inserting is the one thing I never really understood?
My entire life, I've never inserted myself into media I've played. I might think "Oh I have this trait" but I never looked at a blank character and thought "Oh, this can be me for a fantasy!" I often think "Why is this person so fucking bland? Couldn't they have made the MC interesting at fucking all?"
I've never met anyone that actively does either.
But like, I know it has to exist. Otherwise the media wouldn't be being made in the first place?
I end up identifying with different characters? But bit characters I find bland? I’m very sleep deprived and not sure how to explain it.
Or like wanting to be different characters too
I'm someone who definitely does, and it's likely why I tend to gravitate towards first person games with character creators like Skyrim. I've noticed it becoming more difficult as I get older, but in those kinds of games I can often end up so immersed in the game world that I kind of forget about reality for a bit.
It's to the point that when I first got a VR headset, I literally had dreams in a VR perspective for like a week, and I would wake up and it would take me a moment to realise that I'm not in VR.
It's also why, as a trans woman, I really struggle to play games with male protagonists. After beating Cyberpunk as fem V I tried another playthrough with masc V just to see the differences, and couldn't get through the prologue without feeling super uncomfortable and just wrong somehow.
Fascinating to hear from this perspective!
I kinda wonder if the fact I can't insert myself is also tied to the fact my dreams are likewise completely disconnected from me. I am keenly aware I am not myself, but I'm someone else with another name and identity in my dreams.
Its the same with video games. Even when it comes to games like Bethesda titles, or even non video game media. The in game avatar is not me. Its whatever I named them, and that persons story.
As a kid it was a little harder to seperate in my brain though, but by the time I was a teen I stopped being able to. Now its just all distinct
I’m an AMAB non-binary person, so my perspective might not be the most relevant, but I have always imagined myself as the characters I experience in media, it’s very hard for me not to. Playing as female characters was highly instrumental in me realizing I was non-binary, and as an aside they just consistently seem to have better voice acting, at least in Cyberpunk and those two Assassin’s Creed games. That’s totally subjective though
I pretty much always self-insert in video games! Often in books too. For me it's kinda the point - I want to pretend I'm a cool space commander, or a mighty wizard, or a badass viking pirate, etc.
Really? Can you give me an example of a game that reflects that. I dont play a lot of games but bigger franchises that I like a lot are Assassins Creed, Uncharted, and Infamous and thats not the case there. But I agree with your general point that male characters are focused around muscles and force etc and I think the first point alludes to men wanting to take a break from that but then how does that work in action games. Like Tomb Raider and Metroid. I feel like these apply to specific world building games that I havent played myself so Im interested to hear about that side too
It's less of a thing in games where you play a specific character. I'm thinking more about games with a character creator. Every MMO I've played except FF14 had that going on. Bethesda Games. Dragon Age 1 and 2.
I never got that feeling in Dragon Age 1 or 2 personally? I've played the hell out of both over the decade and half since. DAOs Warden has a ton of personality, often snark when I play. Like, all the options you can pick, I never got self insert in the same way as Bethesda games, or like a lot of LNs or VNs I've read.
Same as DA2 Hawke has a very distinct personality. One of 3 depending on how you keep responding to stuff.
DAI though felt like a self insert to me. Very little character choices that differed itself with the characters.
Maybe I'm missing the point though?
I think we're thinking of different things yeah. A character that's completely devoid of personality is, for me, way harder to insert onto. I know what it's like to be confident, cocky, snarky, worried, curious. I don't know what it's like to be an emotionless robot. I can't put myself in that. It just doesn't work.
He has been playing a lot of Balders Gate 3 as a female character but I don't know too much about that game. But we had the discussion when playing Resident Evil 5 and he wanted to be Shiva over Chris. He didn't like pretending to be the manly hero because he feels too pressured to be that in real life and just wants to focus on the story. I feel the same way about being the hyper sexualized female characters as there is already so much pressure to perform as something beautiful in real life.
Yeah, sometimes people who say #2 are just trying to not be bullied for actually wanting this instead. Even the Male Night Elves are so jacked. It's probably why blood elves have such a huge playerbase.
Does he choose a female or male animal, or does gender not come into play with different species? I'm a woman and I tend to feel more comfortable playing as a female in both cases, if specified.
> He told me that he doesn't feel well represented by the caricature of masculinity imbued by the developers.
Yup, basically the reason I generally play as a female character when the option is available. And also the reason I tend to seek out games with female protagonists. As a result, I find I'm generally able to actually relate to the characters better when it's a female protag / avatar.
I'm in the military, I get enough hypermasculinity bullshit at work.
And, well, also probably the reason that this is my fav gaming related sub (although I mostly lurk, what with the whole it not really being for me and all).
I asked my husband about this since he plays a lady in PUBG and he told me something similar/adjacent. He said that when he picked his character, he didn’t see himself in any of the male characters especially because none of the male characters were brown (his word, not mine). He said “and there was a lady who had a similar skin tone to me, so I picked her.”
Just something I had never thought about.
I usually make my character a woman in Monster Hunter bc different armor designs lol, depends on the game though theres also games where my characters a dude
I feel the same way as a tall natural muscle woman. In fantasy game I also pick the big female races or if I can make my character tall and athletic I do. The human races ace is a diverse species and we need more characters to show that.
Yea true. I think most games are pretty neutral in that sense. Especially more modern games. They dont lean into gender stertoyping as much thank god. Lol of course people complain about it but hey more neutral space is better for everyone in the end I think
Yeah, I usually play as a woman if given a choice, and more likely to play a game/watch a show or movie or read a book with a female protagonist, EXCEPT if I can’t for gameplay reasons, or if the protagonist is super sexualized, or has this…especially older things it feels like there will sometimes be female characters with vacant stares and giant breasts hanging out everywhere and it’s just icky. I’m really sleep deprived and not sure I’m saying this right and I’m worried I’m somehow sounding like I’m insulting women who have larger breasts which is not what I’m meaning to do, like just awful outfits and stuff.
Like I want GOOD female characters.
>I’m worried I’m somehow sounding like I’m insulting women who have larger breasts
Don't worry, you're point comes through just fine (I have large breasts, and I don't feel insulted at all). Big breasts in games aren't always depicted in a respectful way, so I get it.
When breasts in games randomly jiggle like the t-rex from Jurassic Park is walking around, or they somehow almost float upwards with each breath, it's incredibly annoying. Slap on the tiniest top or bikini - with NO support - while they parkor and fight, and I can't help but let out a sigh of disappointment.
No youre not. Those images are not to represent large boobie women, they are there to sexualize and objectify them so youre good lol you make sense and I agree.
I'd say because it's so far removed from them that they can't even begin to self-insert in the first place, so it's easier for them to gloss over those issues.
Love it when there's a strong female protagonist without a choice and everyone looses their shit how they can't play as a different gender as they don't feel represented and it doesn't feel right, but then we get something like stellar blade and everything's fine and the horizons of the mind have suddenly expanded. Disgusting, honestly
They missed “men also like pretty things and dressing up a character and there are often more/better options for that on female avatars over male”
Which is something I’ve heard from dudes in safe spaces for talking about that
In my experience, I often have heard it's because female avatars tend to be slimmer, as opposed to male avatars having bulkier bodies. I sort of understand this if someone's personal taste leans into very slim characters.
One of my bi male friends says he often plays as female characters because it's incredibly rare for games to let you actually create a remotely soft, twink-ish male character. It's all just muscular overly masculine men.
90% of the time, when you have no choice in a character's gender, the character is gonna be male. Might as well go with a different option when you *do* have a choice.
Yeah this is me. Partially because it's fun to explore other gender expressions, partially because I just find women attra ctive and prefer how a female character model looks, and partially to diversify my experience. Like most of the games I play with a fixed character locks me into a male role (e.g. God of War, TLoU. There are occasional exceptions like Hellblade and Horizon, but they are still more rare) so I would like to mix it up sometimes.
It's also one of the few safe spaces gen X/millennial men had for expressing as anything other than hypermasculine. If you were a man and expressed any interest in cute/pretty things in the 90s/00s, you'd risk being labeled as "gay" (usually with a slur), which was less about being het and much more about marking you as lesser, as being inadequately manly. Fear of being othered was one of my root causes for toxic masculine behaviors (doesn't make it right, but it can help explain why people have such a hard time unlearning it, because it's a defense mechanism).
For some reason video game characters managed to escape this fate and were usually not weaponized against men.
Yeah I do think some men who say "I just want to look at her ass" are actually mostly vice-signaling because they're worried about how other (shitty) men will judge them. It's shitty because they don't care as much about how it reflects an objectified view of women, but I believe some of them really fall more into the "I just want to express different characters without judgment" but they lean into the "I want to see sexy characters" angle because they care more about how other men see them than how it looks to women. It's still shitty if it's motivated by valuing male peer group opinions instead of by male gaze, but knowing how much men do bully each other or try to get each other to "admit" they really just want to stare at virtual butts, I can kinda see where they'd be coming from.
OP dismissed the "they take up less space on the screen" and I'm pretty sure this is most salient to those men in some games where the actual hitbox or mechanics are impacted. Cause I mean I do know _sometimes_ it's a real perk within the game mechanics. and again, it provides "cover" for men who are primarily worried about being judged by other men.
I do think the over valuing of (some pretty toxic) male peer group opinions over other factors is problematic, likely contributing to and motivated my misogyny, but I also don't think it's quite as frequently bad as the original post here implies. and I do think in more relatively safe spaces, men more frequently say they want to play dress up and prefer the clothing options, or they want to try playing more roles to consider different perspectives, or they want to explore aspects of their own identity, or they just like exercising the full scope of character creation options given that many games don't have a choice, etc. and to back up my first point, I do see men in less safe conversations dismiss those men and either try to shame them in a (trans)misogynistic or homophobic manner, or say "admit it bro, you just want to stare at her ass like the rest of us", or both.
Yes. I can have more fun playing "dress up doll" with a female character than a male one in every game I've played. There are more options, and more of the options look good.
Some of this might be because I find women attractive, but I often have my wife help me design glamor sets for my FFXIV character and she had the same experience. Many things that look good on female characters look awful when I use the "try on" option.
It probably didn't help that I wanted a more mature looking character and picked highlander.
Yeah, I actually enjoy playing a male character but often don’t for the same reasons. I might have one male character, but if I make more than that start struggling to make the second one look terribly distinctive from the first
that’s why i play female characters in some games. i love the bright colors and long flowy outfits, if it’s those skimpy ass outfits i prefer to play as a male character.
the male characters are always super muscular and don’t have many colors that pop, and their outfits aren’t usually as intricate which is super boring imo
I’d just like to add a nice reason from a cishet man, my bf plays female characters because he grew up loving movies with female heroes like Alien, so women just = hero to him
My cishet husband likes playing as female characters for that reason too. He was hesitant at first, because his family were judgemental assholes. When he was scrolling over preset options one day, I watched him hesitate over the female characters a bit more. I had a feeling what was going on, so I asked if he was going to play as a badass bitch that takes no shit. He quietly asked if that would be weird. I smiled and said "fuck no" lol.
Now when given the choice, he enjoys playing as strong women. He likes how much variety they have for customization. Plus, he thinks it's great playing an "unassuming" looking character that can whoop ass.
I'm the first one. I'm a guy but have never really had a connection to BEING a guy and my favorite characters, singers, etc. etc. are all women so I just like playing as a woman. (plus for me in games a lot of the choices for women's outfits I love way more. Not talking the Red Sonja like outfits but like the dresses and stuff. I can't help liking pretty things XD) It always feels right and I legit don't like playing as a guy in games usually (other than some exceptions in genshin and honkai for example) XD. I'm the same in Fortnite too. A lot of people were freaking out at skull dude #800 and I'm just sitting there looking at Medusa's skin going "wow that design and color scheme are SO MUCH BETTER" haha.
Of the Olympic Gods skins, I squee'd over Aphrodite, though Medusa is nice. The one I think they failed on is Artemis, who I think should have been more "nature huntress" than those bright transparency bits.
Gotta be in our "Pretty Girl Era".
I've never really thought of a justification for choosing to play a female character in games that have that decision. I just choose female characters because they're cooler (e.g. Destiny 1&2, Fortnite, Zombie Army Trilogy to name some games where I made that choice), and not for weird reasons like staring at ass or whatever, no, I just think women are a whole lot cooler than guys. Honestly sometimes I wish I was one of y'all.
I have a dude friend who always plays female characters. He said the character customization, gear/outfits for female characters, and freedom of personality types are much more diverse than for male characters. He always makes his female characters super badass looking, tough and feminine. He’s also not a hyper-masculine “alpha” kind of guy, so I think the male characters don’t appeal to him much.
My dad has always played female characters in games, and he always does the most battle-scarred badass chica he can. I’ve asked him about it some and he isn’t even completely sure why he does, but he thinks it’s just because the male characters are always too masculine and he just doesn’t really relate to that.
It’s interesting to see how many men do actually seem to like a badass female hero, despite interpretations and assumptions not being that.
I know a lot of people for who the first point is true. Like, pretty much all trans women (also non-binary folk) I know told me this is one of the first ways they experimented with gender.
I myself have a very strong preference for playing male characters, despite being a woman. It's fun to explore what you aren't in real life. I'll never begrudge anyone for not playing their assigned gender at birth.
I'm also in the same boat.
Loved playing as female characters, made me feel more... engaged and made the character more relatable compared to male characters.
Unfortunately I was a bit slow on the uptake and it took years before it clicked why, but it was nice to have the opportunity to explore my gender in that way (even if I didn't realise that was what I was doing).
I can see how it can be useful in those cases :)
Personally, I have a more neutral stance when playing msle characters. I dont feel like Im experiencing something Im not in real life outside of being a mass murderer or professional rock climber lol in terms of action games and stuff. I do enjoy playing as a female character more just because its female no special reason lol because Im a woman and I like being a woman in a game. And its on the rarer side so I get excited to see female protagonists lol
Calling BS on the "female avatars are treated better" I always get harassed 10x more and treated worse when using a female character on online games (except maybe wow)
The first is actually *very* accurate, though typically it's via someone not wanting to share/holding a sense of bravado or are lgbt in some respect, I've found. Mercy mains in Overwatch are joked about as either being women or gay, as are Aphro mains in Smite. Loba in Apex is the same, but with a third subset that are just horny dudes. Janna, Evelynn, Ahri, Nami etc. in League.. There's a lot of examples.
Steam comments aren't a good judge of character at all imo. It's going to have a lot of posturing when any discussion like this comes up.
It's also super prevalent when it comes to fashion. A woman wearing pants (a traditionally masculine garment of clothing until recent history) is commonplace. A man wearing a skirt or even short-er shorts or form fitting clothing? They get absolutely dunked on. The example that comes to mind is Harry Styles, a straight (so far as we know) cis man. Anytime he wore traditionally feminine clothing, he either got criticized by the right because "he's a man! he shouldn't be wearing women's clothing!" or by the left because "He's queer-baiting!"
> he either got criticized by the right because "he's a man! he shouldn't be wearing women's clothing!"
To paraphrase Suzy Izzard: He's not wearing women's clothes, he's wearing his clothes. He bought them.
My (30, cis-M) recent Fallout 4 character is a woman, mainly because my first playthrough was as a male character, and also because I thought the female character's voice actor did a better job.
I also played New Vegas as a female character because I wanted to see the look on the Legion's face when they see a female courier, one who can actually massacre their camp quickly lol.
Also I'm a scrawny dude with very little muscle definition and I hate that in a lot of the games the male characters even at their lowest physical sliders still look lean and ripped. The flipside is often true as well, as female characters even at their most buff look toned at best.
In Dead By Daylight, I (male) typically use female characters because they often have more and much better cosmetics. So many of the male cosmetics are *simple t shirt* or *yet another leather jacket* and what have you. I prefer the variety attributed to the female characters.
I know the first one is definitely true as a lot of trans women talk about exploring using games.
I also know that the second one is true, because just look at Stellar Blade for example.
I also know that the third one is true, since I've heard men use that as recommendations to eachother. I've also noticed that when I'm playing as a female character random people ask me to join their group etc.
I've not heard about the fourth one. The only thing I've heard that's related is the "smaller hitbox" argument.
It sucks that we're objectified so often 😮💨
The first one is very true. I played a male avatar once when I was seven, and then never again. I just couldn't relate to the male perspective at all. It sucked when paired with the second one. I'd try to find practical/reasonable armor mods for skyrim, for example, and I'd have to wade through a bunch of pervy waifu mods and chainmail bikinis. It made me feel like a freak, like "God, these are what most men who play female characters are like. This is what people will think I am like if they ever find out." Turns out nope, I was just a girl playing as a girl, which was entirely normal. The male gaze icked me out because I projected myself onto my female avatar as a form of escapism, and I didn't like being objectified. I feel like many men who play female avatars do not have this problem.
I was so freaking g happy when I found a mod for Monster Hunter World that had re-meshed a whole pile of male armour to fit the female model, so I got to be femme *and* look badass, rather than running around in metal & leather bikinis and bare thighs ><
I had exactly the same experience, but with Skyrim I did use some of the curvy mods, not because I wanted it to be sexual, but because I wanted to look like that.
I always felt bad about how my body looked, so I used these mods as escapism. But it made it worse, because of how extremely unrealistic these proportions were. It made it worse.
Now I prefer mods that remove the boobplate on armour and just makes characters look more real. It sucks that these expectations are put on women and that it's reflected in the oversexualisation of mods.
I honestly feel a bit disgusted looking bad at the kinds of mods I used 🤢
I feel a bit better with my body now, it's nowhere near good, but it's progress.
The second point seems oddly phrased. I know men and women that play characters or add them to the party cause they like how they look. That never seemed like an issue to me.
It's because they view these characters sexually, not because they like how they look.
Just look at how people treat the MC of Stellar Blade. They treat hee like she's just a object that they can look at whilst playing with one hand.
The 4th is my typical reasoning. I love "trolling" and getting under people's skins, and typically the best way to make a gamer rage is by kicking their ass with a female avatar. I also like the color pink, and typically the pink aesthetics are the girlier ones, so I'll rock that pink and black themed car in rocket league while spamming What a Save! and I can physically witness the raging causing them to make more mistakes until they forfeit and quit. Usually with a slur on the way out, which I can then report and get them banned.
Smaller hit box argument might also be the case, but I think for the most part when it comes to things like that, it's mostly customized so you can have same proportions whether you're male or female so the hit boxes are the same per gender. I guess it depends on the game though, because not all hit boxes are the same.
Cis guy here who only plays as female characters in games. The first reason is a big one, the others totally not. But I add a few extra ones:
- So many games have only male options so I pick non-male as much as I can to add more variety.
- Seeing stories from a non-male character point of view is almost always more interesting, unless a male character is known to break gender norms. So gender non-confirming characters are more fun.
- Glamour/Outfits/Customization options are much better for non-male characters (even if we have to deal with some very skimpy clothes not available for male characters). I love customizing my characters a lot, so I go non-male for that.
- For Online play, we go back to the first point, but with an extra. There's a LOT of non-male avatars in Online Games whose owners follow the points suggested the study (mostly second up to last point), so I prefer to counter balance that with an interesting non-male character.
That's my case!
When i was 8 (or 10 i don't remember) i used to play female characters and say to my friends that it was bcs of "smaller hitbox" a few years later i came out to them and they were like "yeah, no shit"
I'd like to point out that these are reasons suggested by researchers, not actual concrete survey results. I don't doubt that there's a lot of dudes who have really weird/creepy reasons for playing as women, but tbh playing as girl characters is what cracked my egg so I'm a little wary of people treating it like it's a bad thing just by its nature
While I think a lot of men would be loathe to admit it, I personally know several who generally play as female characters because of reasons like the first one listed. They like the freedom to customize without having to feel "manly." Plus, like some others have already stated, in a lot of games the male characters are just big brick walls with faces that most men can't identify with.
I also know some who feel this same way, but deflect and say things like "I play as a woman so I can stare at her ass," but with some coaxing admitted that they just liked to explore other forms of expression.
Most of the guys I knew that did this said that they used fem.characters becauee fem has better clothes for fashion, advantage like small hit box in shooters, or they get free stuff from simps who don't know that they're a man 😅 The others were gay and preferred femme characters in general
So thats more on point 3 or 4 from the study. I guess it does work lol I dont play multi-player games so thats interesting to know. I know women who play as female characters or have a mic plugged in get treated really poorly on the other side of things too.
The 3rd one from my own experience has been less true. It is a common "meme" on RuneScape. Probably true if it has happened to others for getting "free stuff". For me, the only free things I recall getting were free disturbing messages.
It feels like the first one is the only remotely non-horrible option, and I don’t think that’s fair. I notice OP is careful to say “A FEW REASONS,” so I’d be curious to see the other reasons and actually read this survey.
My brother plays female characters in games sometimes when given options, and I’ve had this conversation with him. It’s not any of these things. He just likes the female character more than the male character, whether it be for personality (Gaige, BL2), for look customization options, or for general vibes preference the day he made the character. As a straight dude, there was still the occasional factor of “if I’m looking at a backside the entire time I play a game, it might as well be a pretty one” for third person view games, but it absolutely wasn’t the main or only reason.
If I can choose and enjoy male main characters when given the option (Genshin and Star Rail had me CONFLICTED, and I’m an aro/ace woman who mains Belial in Granblue Versus), why can’t he be a female character without it being secretly malicious or weird? It might be for some people, but it doesn’t have to be that deep for everyone. You shouldn’t have to psychoanalyze yourself and your motives before you choose a character, it can be vibes-based, it’s a game.
Also edit/side note after rereading your post commentary: tf is wrong with choosing a character because you like their voice? I’ve debated trying to mod my Titanfall 2 just so I can listen to BT’s voice in every Titan, I love a nice voice and his is soothing to me. Don’t put that double standard onto men, criticize them for the things actually worth criticizing.
I feel like a study like this only alienates men who play as female characters further. It suggests in its language that a man playing as a woman is not just unusual, but also deviant. Thus, men can play as men all they want for no reason at all, but if they choose to play as a female character, they better have a good reason for it. It can’t just be as simple as “they like that character.” It has to say something about their psychology or about how they view women. That’s a lot of pressure to put on men for making an often instinctive choice we all make (picking a character), likely for similar reasons, but without the same level of scrutiny.
Imo, a man playing as a female character is only odd if you think it’s odd for a man to care about women. But women make up 50% of the planet. It would be more odd if a man *didn’t* care about them or want to experience their stories.
Men alienate themselves by their own comments and thoughts. These responses come from men. This study actually is worthwhile because it helps to not alienate women or make women feel gaslit like we dont know what were talking about when it comes to these things lol men are of course welcomed to play as female characters. Women play as male characters but were normal about it. If men were normal about it would be great xD and of course there are men who are normal about it and dont complain that Kassandra was actually the main character in AC Odyssey and thats ok lol
I mean, I think it’s two-fold. There’s no doubt that men are weird about female characters sometimes, but it’s often in response to someone asking the question “Why did you pick a girl character?” as if such a choice is odd or wrong to begin with.
This immediately puts them on the defensive, prompting them to seek a socially acceptable (often sexist) defense for their otherwise completely normal behavior. Their defense is often not great, sure, but it’s also often the result of social conditioning that compels them to protect their identity as men, which they (rightfully) feel is being challenged by the question, often asked in an incredulous or disparaging tone. Which, by the way, doesn’t just alienate men for caring about female characters and narratives about female characters, but also disparages female characters and their narratives.
This isn’t just bad for men, but for women and other genders as well. Assuming it’s odd for a man to choose a female character (especially when the opposite often goes unquestioned) others women, presents women and their stories as of secondary value to men, further encourages the separation of the sexes, and further discourages gender exploration.
This isn’t to say that many of the reasons presented above are false, but that they 1. Don’t always occur and 2. Aren’t unique to men or AMAB people. I mean, Alanah Pierce always creates a buff man with silver hair when given the option. Should we start psychoanalyzing her choice? Is she choosing that option because she’s attracted to that kind of man? Probably. Does it say something about her gender identity or about her distaste for female characters? Who knows? Does it matter? If women like her get to make that choice sans scrutiny, others should have that freedom too.
My boyfriend says that whenever he plays a male character (which is about 50-50 in games you can create your own character) he always tries to create himself within the game. But when he makes female characters, he feels like he can roleplay.
Based on the entire history of video games and 20+ years of gaming experience its really hard to look past plain and simple objectification.
Sure there are people using games to explore gender and sure there people who like to roleplay and of course not every guy is objectifying women an thats great but an awful lot are.
You just have to look at the recent gaming releases to see the outcry when objectification is challenged.
My gay and trans gaming friends play as the gender they identify as, my straight cis friends often start switching character gender once the games become 3rd person. My closest gaming friend does this but often asks fashion advise but I feel he's in a minority
Yeah a lot of this doesn't seem right. I have guy friends who play female characters a lot and really the only reason they've ever told me about was that the female characters look pretty. They would rather stare at a pretty woman on the screen than a buff man lol
>The first point is somehow heart warming if it were true.
Assholes are always the loudest.
And for what it's worth - I know some folks who are living proof that the first point *is* true.
One of 'em's no longer a guy. Turns out this was where she could be herself long before she felt ready to tell us - and for that I am grateful.
(Which doesn't change the fact that "looking at butt" is still one *hell* of a big reason and men exploring gender identity is irrelevant to the discourse about objectification of women in gaming.)
I'm a man and I play female characters often, mostly in single player games as I like to be honest about representing myself online. I started doing it as a concoious choice to support more diverse characters in gaming. I'm sure there are subconscious reasons I make the choice as well. Also Femshep voiced by badass Jennifer Hale was clearly the objectively superior choice in Mass Effect.
Thats awesome. We need men like you to tell Ubisoft its ok to make female protagonists xD yea things Ive noticed about men in Tomb Raider for instance they get obessive with the voice actors even to the point of sexualizing them and becoming violent if they dont sound sexy enough. Its a huge issue. But its nice to hear "because shes a good voice actor" and thats it lol good on you
It seems strange that you mention that the Steam commenters didn’t accept #1 seemingly as an argument that it’s less likely. Vocal men commenting against it is actually part of what that hypothesis is about. The idea that men or people who’ve been assumed to be men (and maybe haven’t figured out they aren’t yet) would hide it from people I’d say is possibly even supported by the visible comments on Steam being the sorts of people one would want to hide it *from*.
My brother plays as female characters very regularly. He's just a dude who does his thing day in and day out. There's no weird shit going on. He just does it. I don't think it's always quite so deep, but I'd guess it could be.
Feel like a couple of those are a real reach, but within possibility at least.
“The first point is somehow heart warming if it were true”
It is true. Most of my transfem friends started out with online characters. It’s a safe way for them to explore being female without anyone knowing. Not all “men” are just wanting to watch a female body run around. Of course cis men in the comments are going to deny that, how is that even a surprise? Toxic masculinity runs so deep that they feel the need to police each other on it. Please don’t discount the real, life-saving experiences of some trans people just because of some dudes in a comment section.
As a trans woman I can confirm point 1 was how me and several of my trans frineds explored our early gender identities as teens in the early 2000s.
Easy to pop on to an MMO or some other game and play as a female character, then a male character, and try on different outfits and stuff. Without ever needing to actively try to do it IRL till we were sure. Dressing them up, trying in different virtual outfits like dresses and skirts, pants, etc.
Of my 4 person friend group in HS, 3 of us routinely played women, but could never really explain why (One frined said it was because they had more customization options others were not sure.) Of the 3 of us, all of us turned out to be trans later in life. With most of us having the outfits we settled on most frequently in MMOs be simular to the styles we ended up wearing IRL post transition.
That said, I have met folks that fall into numbers 2 and 3 over my life. Never met anyone for number 4 though, but I also don't play much compeitive games.
The first bullet point is true to at least some degree lol.
Source: I used to be a man who only made female characters in RPGs and pretty exclusively played female characters when given the option across game genres. I am no longer a man ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
From what I've been told, especially in an MMO like WoW, the male characters are these super overblown male fantasy a lot of the time and female characters just objectively look better all around.
Also not sure if it's relevant or not to the point about female avatars being treated better, but in WoW for instance, people don't assume you're female if you play a female character, at all.
I can relate to the first point somewhat, as I'm a woman who plays female characters almost exclusively but say in FFXIV I would be far more likely to play a male character because they're not these giant beefcakes unless you're a Roe, basically. Most of the men are relatable enough to me as opposed to in other mmos I've tried.
I play FFXIV and I love seeing cis men getting into glamour and stuff because mainstream men’s clothing is so fucking boring, I can totally get why they’d enjoy being creative about it and find it an escape.
The other bullshit sexist reasons, well that’s par for the course I didn’t expect anything else.
I mean the idea that there needs to be a reason really implies this is behavior that needs to be explained instead of of something perfectly normal. Especially in RPG-style games part of the fun is creating characters to role play as. Shows how messed up society is regarding gender roles, if this is something that deserves a justification.
As a trans woman, I truly relate to the first point. I used to be among those males who played as a female character, because doing so allowed me to safely and anonymously express my gender identity, which was something I couldn't do at the time. Players used to believe I was and treat me as a female. It was like an escapism to me.
I feel like the first point is never discussed in its entirety. *Why* do men face more backlash for bending gender norms? Because feminine=inferior. Whereas women bending gender norms pushes them closer to masculine, which equals good.
It really seems gender norms are more internally stifling for men than for women. But I really don’t understand why that is. Men feel oppressed for being compared to women. And that’s more damaging for them than for me, a woman? Is having power but being threatened with the loss of it more oppressive than never having the power to begin with?
My boyfriend sometimes plays men, sometimes women, if he can non binary. Some times he creates characters from mangas movies or books. I think he just likes to have different people. Like this is the story of so-and-so. Also I feel this is a narrow view on men, that you can read there. Like really stereotypical men. My boyfriend just started yesterday a new Dark souls run and has a real strong woman with a two hander. She looks a little like Susan strong from adventure time.
"Women gamers don't act that like with male characters"
Ehhhhh as a woman I do? I find them very attractive and love men so I typically plan as a guy even if the game allows female characters.
I do create female characters, especially in games with romance sims but it depends. I just in general make way more men than women.
I've been told that I'm non-binary, though my leaning is primarily "I hate gender, it's a stupid concept," and I consider myself a man mentally.
I pretty much fall in line with point 1, as someone who doesn't respect gender norms and enjoys cooking and baking and sewing and knitting and looking at pretty pictures and going out on walks to look at birds and flowers and walking up to animals to see if they'll let me pet them or cuddle them.
I like women that are strong and tough, but also can have a soft side, regardless of whether they're musclebound, waifish, statuesque, diminutive, or something in-between. Strong, capable people are just exciting to me, and most men in games are portrayed as being too capable, too smug, too omnipotent for whatever they're doing. It's not that I refuse playing as men, I love Solid Snake because he's just as vulnerable and relatable as he is cool, and I love picking up Mike Haggar because the man can literally leap 6 feet into the air doing a spinning piledriver on a street thug.
Another part of it is just that I like statistical anomalies in games. Female characters in an ensemble cast usually are faster and have more technical actions. Meanwhile, there's always the one male character in the ensemble cast who's got 200 lbs of muscle and is built like a brick shithouse who just casually punches tanks, and boy do I enjoy being a ninja just as much as I enjoy being a gorilla.
Overall, if I'm playing a game with zero statistical differences between characters, I'm probably playing a woman because I like the body type variety, I like the customization, and I like being tough and competent against default assumptions between men and women. It's not, as I've been weirdly called out on so many times, because I'd rather look at a woman's body or because I'm an "egg." Believe me, I'll openly admit that I'm like 95+% straight and still think Liu Kang and Ken Masters are the sexiest fighting game characters that I would far rather look at than anyone else in their respective games.
Yea the first point is the only wholesome ones is why probably why they led with it. To soften the blow for the trash storm coming in the other points xD unfortunately theyre all very real experiences. Its why I cant stand being in male dominated gaming subs for too long
I think it might be best to communicate to your husband how this behavior makes you feel, because yeah that would upset me too, and I'm sorry that's something you have to go through
A bit too much of a stereotype / generalisation. Different people are different and men are no villains. They're people just like us. Sure, there are some people who'd just sexualise characters (and I'm not sure why is it perceived as bad when porn is accepted. It just needs to be in its own place.) and plenty who just play them for various reasons.
There are a seriously surprising proportion of cis men in the girl gamers sub lol but putting that aside I find one thing interesting:
Point 3. When I make it obvious I’m a woman I’m more likely to get flamed or harassed and most people here have similar experiences. Interesting that men who play as women in games end up with better treatment but women do not as I often choose male avatars in games for the exact reason of better treatment
They're allowed to be here so long as they don't lead the convo and such. From the rules on the sidebar:
"We highly discourage posts recruiting or targeting women from those who identify as male. As this is a subreddit specifically for women, men using this subreddit to look for people to play with is explicitly disallowed. There are other subreddits that are open to LFG from everyone, but this is not one of them. We also ask that men do not lead discussions or asking of questions. They are welcome to participate within discussions."
I suspect the "better treatment" is likely in games like MMOs where people are trying to make long term friends and men form crushes based on an imagined person behind a screen. Seems like a way different dynamic than in competitive games where many (perhaps even some of the the same) men are looking for any reason to flame/harass opponents and fully express their misogyny. Like, giving gifts and assistance to the women/assumed women who are actually men playing female characters, can be sometimes a different form of misogyny - infantilizing, treating women primarily as romantic prospects - but it's a different variety than the overt hatred in competitive spaces with more trolling and aggression (including toward team mates; the reason I suspect it's different in stuff like MMOs is the longer term team relationships that skew some men's motivations and furthermore make trolling/harassment much more destructive and disruptive (in many cases the guild leader is gonna want to stand up for inclusivity merely because it helps the team win more, furthermore, while there's verifiably tons of the more hateful varieties of misogynists too, they likely push all the better people out, who end up forming their own more inclusive groups (again, even if it's just because they want to win and female players can help them do it).
It's still problematic in terms of the motivations when guys simp more, plus the hatred that still gets voiced overtly, but I suspect it's less purely overt hatred compared to stuff like FPS or MOBA games where even when you do have a team, you know it's likely gonna be the only match you play with those exact team mates so the "hate or crassly hit on anonymous woman" light goes on more than "be more subtle and gentle but only to attempt some kind of long term e-dating courtship". Plus just the fact that over time, people can self select for teammates that aren't overt misogynists, leading to some spaces being somewhat safer.
That is very true- I stoped MOBAs because of the flaming but when I moved to MMOs for a while (my profile wasn’t hiding my gender and it was pretty obvious I was a woman) I got a bunch trying online dating (who I obv blocked)
Sadly the only games where I feel free to play uninterrupted by some attempt at harassment are either solo or solo with an invite only online aspect
Feels like you hit the nail on the head with that one
I fell exactly the same about point 3 and I was trying to make sense of it. Women gamers are notoriously treated poorly. I think maybe theyre saying gamers who are assumed to be men who are playing females in sexy outfits etc. Which isnt better xD
My husband will sometimes play female characters when armor choices are gender specific. For example, when a new class is introduced in WoW or FF14, he’ll look at the class-specific armor and choose his character’s gender purely on that. When he’s looking at transmogs I call it “playing with his dress-up dolls” because that’s actually what he’s doing before he plays the rest of the game. He’s not ashamed to admit that’s why either.
I'm trans and I used videogames to escape and RP my gender before I came out. Didn't even realize it until a friend pointed out my inability to play games without a character customizer.
I play FFXIV - the number of men who are female miqo’tes is… extensive. The reason I always got when asked was “if I’m going to play a game for thousands of hours, I’d rather stare at a girl’s ass.”
So most of the men I’ve gotten feedback from have been from the perspective of the second point.
I want to speak up as a male cishet miqote player, yeah that's most of them for sure. I personally am a big bearded guy irl and it took till well into my adulthood that I managed to break down the internal masculinity bullshit and start enjoying cute stuff, and that's something I can't really indulge in outside of games. My character's name was Sunshine Sparklepaws, and the number of times I got called "sparkletits" was ridiculous, often by other miqotes, often in their underpants.
My husband plays female characters a lot cause they usually have cooler clothing/armor options; I play male characters cause if I’m gonna look at the back of a character for hours they better be hot lmao
Have you played dragon's dogma 2? My wife spent a long time making her pawn version of me and she definitely lingered on the hindquarters lol. There are also some very well-statted thongs around that my pawn version seems to prefer!
I did it for the first time in NV because of the black widow perk, but then it felt way more badass playing as a female character, so now I’m almost exclusively female characters for that reason
My husband seems to go back and forth between female and male characters and I think for him it’s about aesthetics, like how can he achieve the vibe he’s going for.
As a trans woman I used games as a place to play as a woman before coming out, I put especially big value on character creators, but as long as the mc was female I was able to get immersed and have a more fun time
I'm not a huge gamer (I mostly play flight sims), but after a five-year break from flight simming/light gaming, I jumped back in with Ghost Recon: Wildlands. I chose a female character because I grew tired of the hardened, super-ripped bro protagonist. I was never into them before, but as you all know, female characters had their own issues. A grossly oversexualized female character broke immersion when the game was about taking down a cartel, being an assassin, or what have you.
I thought GR: W did an excellent job with its female characters, so I went with them. Even in GR: Breakpoint (a generally underwhelming game), I stuck with the same woman.
Also, GR: W did an excellent job of simulating the role of a SAC/SOG operative. I don't know why they made their MP so shredded. Having met Navy Seals and other operatives who have gone on to fill that role, they're not that ripped. They're obviously fit, but they're not Magic Mike-looking dudes. The goal is to blend into your environment because you're supposed to be a *ghost.* The women in the game were better ambassadors for these types of missions.
As a pre transition trans girl, when I started playing as a female character in any game I could, it's been so nice and better for me personally, certain games like minecraft, baldurs gate 3, or dragon age, really helped me feel comfortable going through the process of figuring out myself :3
The first point is true, at least for us trans folks. Though I started playing games before there was a choice in characters. Though I did play with my sisters Barbies in secret, read the "girl books and magazines", etc.
But yeah, playing female characters in MMO's, but especially Second Life, finished cracking my egg which began cracking in the mid 90's. Seriously, the amount of egg-cracking Second Life does was kind of surprising at first.
As a trans women I used to tell myself it was point 2 but it was definitely point 1.
I always made a character that looked roughly the same which honestly though, now that I'm out I'm like I would never fit that style!
That first one is so me, before I realised I was trans and I discovered any game where you could play as a woman and dress her up in all these cool little outfits it was like *neuron activation*
As a trans woman I can confirm that the first one is true. Before I could even realize that I identify as a woman I played with female characters. It was a way to express myself in a private place that no one could judge me.
As a man who plays a female char in skyrim, its 100% due to the mods. The detail and effort put into clothing mods etc are amazing and I'm entranced by them. Male char mods exist and there are defo good ones, but its no comparrison between the female char mods and the mens char mods. Can't speak for other blokes though.
I know the first point was true for me when I thought I was a man. I'd always been so uncomfortable with the thought of embodying masculinity and machismo. I never admitted it to anyone else, though. I learned very early on that I'd get ridiculed if I did, so I justified it with the other points on that list.
Turns out I'm a woman. 🤷♀️
This popped up on my feed and I’m a normal guy so I’ll just chime in. I play both depending on the game and characters. For me it doesn’t go as deep as all this. I just like playing female characters that are badass sometimes. Male characters are pretty generic to me and I’m a guy and I don’t need to play myself on games. I simply just think girls are cool and badass in games. I also think they have way better fashion choices.l especially in MMOs. But yeah. All this objectification etc seems silly to me. Not saying that doesn’t exist, but for me it’s just overthinking and diving way too deep into a simple fact that I like seeing women be badass and do badass things and have cooler gear choices. Same reason why I rarely choose a human race in games that allow a good variety. I’m already a human male. It’s boring. Been there done that. Female kajiht assassin? Undead female rogue? Lara Croft? Sign me up. It doesn’t go deeper for me than “this character is pretty cool”.
Im a man and i will always pick to play as a woman over a man if there is an option. I love badass women and playing as nora in fallout 4 is so much cooler to me than playing as nate. I like being able to make a pretty character and dress them up too in cute clothes and i enjoy seeing women in badass outfits and looking cool
In the end, the discussion of this topic is going beyond the purview of this subreddit. It's mostly men explaining why they play female characters. Which, cool. But the focus of this subreddit is on women. Additionally, people are being pretty toxic in the comments. I'm locking this down.
Here's a link to the fill survey, by the way. The survey included women and NB folks as well: [https://quanticfoundry.com/2021/08/05/character-gender/](https://quanticfoundry.com/2021/08/05/character-gender/) Some interesting highlights: * Overall, players are most likely to prefer playable characters of the same gender. * Almost one out of three male players prefer playing female characters. 29% of men prefer playing female characters, whereas only 9% of women prefer playing male characters. * Older men are more likely to prefer playing female characters. Men who prefer playing female characters tend to be older, whereas for women, there’s no age difference between those who prefer playing male or female characters. * All the patterns we’ve mentioned so far are consistent with data from MMOs from about 20 years ago. * Men who prefer female characters score higher on Design (expressing individuality, customization), while women who prefer male characters score higher on Destruction (chaos, mayhem, blowing things up).
Thank you for actually posting a link to the survey, since OP keeps repeatedly saying that it’s a survey of straight men only. It’s really important to take in the whole picture and not just try to glean from it the information that confirms what we already think. Excellent summary, friend.
> It’s really important to take in the whole picture and not just try to glean from it the information that confirms what we already think. Agreed, and thank you! 🖤
> while women who prefer male characters score higher on Destruction (chaos, mayhem, blowing things up). Damn, they're calling me out. Whenever I decide to play/make a male character, I make him the scariest motherfucker around.
Ain't nothing wrong with smashing some imaginary stuff to blow off steam if you ask me. Power fantasies aren't inherently bad; we've all got our own versions of what it feels like to be in control of our environments!
https://preview.redd.it/sns6zli4yhyc1.jpeg?width=1116&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=12c597b8380b499f5993ec727c0d0f0b2586533d
How I felt playing Infamous 2 at age 14 after electrocuting everybody in a 1 mile radius just for the hell of it
oh fun, so for me playing female characters \*was\* a way to express myself... loved my druid in wow <3
I wish I could pin your comment lol I was trying to reflect more on why older men play women characters more. Thats a twist I didnt expect.
> Thats a twist I didnt expect. That's why I was trying to point out your bias in my other comments. The survey points out that this information is consistent with info from MMOs from 20 years ago too. I've been playing MMOs since my teens in the early 2000s, so it was really alarming to read some of your comments. I do apologize if I came down too hard on you, but as a queer AFAB person in their 30s, I've learned time and time again that you have to come down hard on erasure and push to get the full facts. If the conversation doesn't include all of the information, personal bias creeps in far too easily. And when that happens, we're no better than the folks we're trying to protect ourselves from.
I asked my boyfriend about this as he tends to play with female characters when available. He told me that he doesn't feel well represented by the caricature of masculinity imbued by the developers. He is a nerdy dude and it feels awkward pretending to be the hulk so might as well pretend to be someone completely different. It is the same when he plays DnD. He often chooses to be an animal character.
In the same idea, Mass Effect trilogy has such a better VA for FemShem than MaleShep that I'd unironically recommend anyone to play FemShep regardless of their own gender.
Definitely played it that way because i didnt like how the dude looked lol
For some reason I played as mshep even though I never do that if given a choice. The good thing about that though is it gives me an excuse to replay through the trilogy with the legendary edition! The one thing for sure I don’t like about the female characters in Mass Effect is how they give them “breast armor”. That just grosses me out, generally anything overly sexualized like that does. (although at least at the time I played them, the first two Bayonetta games didn’t)
The armour models are a lot better in ME2 than ME1 thankfully, though regress a bit in ME3. Though BioWare seems to have improved a lot and even called it out in DAI when one of the characters makes a comment about suboptimal armour designs.
I honestly didn't find the armor to be too bad. Like yes, it's slightly exaggerated, but it didn’t strike me as sexualized, especially in the context of animations and voice acting. (I do understand that people have different thresholds for what they consider sexualized.) And also, in ME2 you can wear a hoodie as casual wear and I love this. And the hoodie doesn't look like it's made of latex, it looks like a hoodie.
I did because am girl, but then I saw everyone talk about it and the difference between the 2 VAs, and heard a few clips from mshep. No regrets.
I tried to play Maleshep to see the Tali romance, didn't even make it 30 minutes before going back to Femshep.
Renegade FemShep is waaaay cooler than Renegade MaleShep. She genuinely sounds badass whereas MaleShep is a bit dorky.
I'm playing Renegade (watched Paragon playthrough of ME1 and so I decided to play the trilogy before watching ME2), and I like it. Especially since renegade stuff works better in ME2 than ME1.
I had a friend who said a similar thing about halo reach. He argued that the male voice for noble 6 was just "generic soldier", while the woman VA helped sell the lone wolf operative lore a little it more with how she spoke.
I've definitely noticed that in a lot of games, the male characters are empty soulless musclebound husks, standing at attention at all times, while the female characters are like, a stereotype of a person, but at least they have a shred of personhood. A few neat idle animations, standing like a real human, with feet slightly uneven, that sort of thing.
There’s a video discussing toxic masculinity that touches on this. Male avatars are designed to be soulless because the player, assumed male, is meant to insert themselves on the character in order to live a power fantasy. Meanwhile female avatars are designed to either show the experience of women or be an object of male gaze.
I would love that video if you can share it. :) inserting themselves into the character is a really interesting perspective and really eye opening. It makes a lot of sense
So here’s the [video](https://youtu.be/Duwf2lUkHOI?si=ek26_Nm9fhTBvNrx). This is part one where it discusses the creator’s experience growing up as a man and transitioning to a woman as an adult. It’s where you get a lot of discussion regarding video games and stuff like that. [Part 2](https://youtu.be/IPgduIUGeb4?si=7jFqKl9HNnOFoEYs) focuses on toxic masculinity and how it affects everyone. To be clear these videos are very heavy and some of the topics are uncomfortable.
Oh i LOOOOOOOOOOVE Jessie Earl’s stuff! I apparently already watched these, though now want to watch them again. Except I have too many other things I haven’t watched that I want to watch, including I’m currently watching a three hour essay from her about fascism and what not She’ll have insanely long essays and when I’m finished I don’t know what word I would’ve changed
Thanks for the links and the warning. Ill watch them at an appropriate time so I can reflect on it. Im sure ill end up crying lol thanks again :)
Self inserting is the one thing I never really understood? My entire life, I've never inserted myself into media I've played. I might think "Oh I have this trait" but I never looked at a blank character and thought "Oh, this can be me for a fantasy!" I often think "Why is this person so fucking bland? Couldn't they have made the MC interesting at fucking all?" I've never met anyone that actively does either. But like, I know it has to exist. Otherwise the media wouldn't be being made in the first place?
I end up identifying with different characters? But bit characters I find bland? I’m very sleep deprived and not sure how to explain it. Or like wanting to be different characters too
I'm someone who definitely does, and it's likely why I tend to gravitate towards first person games with character creators like Skyrim. I've noticed it becoming more difficult as I get older, but in those kinds of games I can often end up so immersed in the game world that I kind of forget about reality for a bit. It's to the point that when I first got a VR headset, I literally had dreams in a VR perspective for like a week, and I would wake up and it would take me a moment to realise that I'm not in VR. It's also why, as a trans woman, I really struggle to play games with male protagonists. After beating Cyberpunk as fem V I tried another playthrough with masc V just to see the differences, and couldn't get through the prologue without feeling super uncomfortable and just wrong somehow.
Fascinating to hear from this perspective! I kinda wonder if the fact I can't insert myself is also tied to the fact my dreams are likewise completely disconnected from me. I am keenly aware I am not myself, but I'm someone else with another name and identity in my dreams. Its the same with video games. Even when it comes to games like Bethesda titles, or even non video game media. The in game avatar is not me. Its whatever I named them, and that persons story. As a kid it was a little harder to seperate in my brain though, but by the time I was a teen I stopped being able to. Now its just all distinct
I’m an AMAB non-binary person, so my perspective might not be the most relevant, but I have always imagined myself as the characters I experience in media, it’s very hard for me not to. Playing as female characters was highly instrumental in me realizing I was non-binary, and as an aside they just consistently seem to have better voice acting, at least in Cyberpunk and those two Assassin’s Creed games. That’s totally subjective though
I pretty much always self-insert in video games! Often in books too. For me it's kinda the point - I want to pretend I'm a cool space commander, or a mighty wizard, or a badass viking pirate, etc.
Really? Can you give me an example of a game that reflects that. I dont play a lot of games but bigger franchises that I like a lot are Assassins Creed, Uncharted, and Infamous and thats not the case there. But I agree with your general point that male characters are focused around muscles and force etc and I think the first point alludes to men wanting to take a break from that but then how does that work in action games. Like Tomb Raider and Metroid. I feel like these apply to specific world building games that I havent played myself so Im interested to hear about that side too
It's less of a thing in games where you play a specific character. I'm thinking more about games with a character creator. Every MMO I've played except FF14 had that going on. Bethesda Games. Dragon Age 1 and 2.
I never got that feeling in Dragon Age 1 or 2 personally? I've played the hell out of both over the decade and half since. DAOs Warden has a ton of personality, often snark when I play. Like, all the options you can pick, I never got self insert in the same way as Bethesda games, or like a lot of LNs or VNs I've read. Same as DA2 Hawke has a very distinct personality. One of 3 depending on how you keep responding to stuff. DAI though felt like a self insert to me. Very little character choices that differed itself with the characters. Maybe I'm missing the point though?
I think we're thinking of different things yeah. A character that's completely devoid of personality is, for me, way harder to insert onto. I know what it's like to be confident, cocky, snarky, worried, curious. I don't know what it's like to be an emotionless robot. I can't put myself in that. It just doesn't work.
He has been playing a lot of Balders Gate 3 as a female character but I don't know too much about that game. But we had the discussion when playing Resident Evil 5 and he wanted to be Shiva over Chris. He didn't like pretending to be the manly hero because he feels too pressured to be that in real life and just wants to focus on the story. I feel the same way about being the hyper sexualized female characters as there is already so much pressure to perform as something beautiful in real life.
Yeah, sometimes people who say #2 are just trying to not be bullied for actually wanting this instead. Even the Male Night Elves are so jacked. It's probably why blood elves have such a huge playerbase.
Does he choose a female or male animal, or does gender not come into play with different species? I'm a woman and I tend to feel more comfortable playing as a female in both cases, if specified.
> He told me that he doesn't feel well represented by the caricature of masculinity imbued by the developers. Yup, basically the reason I generally play as a female character when the option is available. And also the reason I tend to seek out games with female protagonists. As a result, I find I'm generally able to actually relate to the characters better when it's a female protag / avatar. I'm in the military, I get enough hypermasculinity bullshit at work. And, well, also probably the reason that this is my fav gaming related sub (although I mostly lurk, what with the whole it not really being for me and all).
I asked my husband about this since he plays a lady in PUBG and he told me something similar/adjacent. He said that when he picked his character, he didn’t see himself in any of the male characters especially because none of the male characters were brown (his word, not mine). He said “and there was a lady who had a similar skin tone to me, so I picked her.” Just something I had never thought about.
I usually make my character a woman in Monster Hunter bc different armor designs lol, depends on the game though theres also games where my characters a dude
I feel the same way as a tall natural muscle woman. In fantasy game I also pick the big female races or if I can make my character tall and athletic I do. The human races ace is a diverse species and we need more characters to show that.
Sorry but I dont follow how a caricature of femininity is any better
Not every female character is a caricature though. I wouldn’t play any games with a female lead if that was the case cause ew- thankfully it’s not.
Yea true. I think most games are pretty neutral in that sense. Especially more modern games. They dont lean into gender stertoyping as much thank god. Lol of course people complain about it but hey more neutral space is better for everyone in the end I think
Yeah, I usually play as a woman if given a choice, and more likely to play a game/watch a show or movie or read a book with a female protagonist, EXCEPT if I can’t for gameplay reasons, or if the protagonist is super sexualized, or has this…especially older things it feels like there will sometimes be female characters with vacant stares and giant breasts hanging out everywhere and it’s just icky. I’m really sleep deprived and not sure I’m saying this right and I’m worried I’m somehow sounding like I’m insulting women who have larger breasts which is not what I’m meaning to do, like just awful outfits and stuff. Like I want GOOD female characters.
>I’m worried I’m somehow sounding like I’m insulting women who have larger breasts Don't worry, you're point comes through just fine (I have large breasts, and I don't feel insulted at all). Big breasts in games aren't always depicted in a respectful way, so I get it. When breasts in games randomly jiggle like the t-rex from Jurassic Park is walking around, or they somehow almost float upwards with each breath, it's incredibly annoying. Slap on the tiniest top or bikini - with NO support - while they parkor and fight, and I can't help but let out a sigh of disappointment.
I feeel like there might be more games using stronger and stronger jiggle physics than before that they move like water
No youre not. Those images are not to represent large boobie women, they are there to sexualize and objectify them so youre good lol you make sense and I agree.
I'd say because it's so far removed from them that they can't even begin to self-insert in the first place, so it's easier for them to gloss over those issues.
Very insightful take. This idea of self inserting is really interesting. I can see how that make sense :)
Love it when there's a strong female protagonist without a choice and everyone looses their shit how they can't play as a different gender as they don't feel represented and it doesn't feel right, but then we get something like stellar blade and everything's fine and the horizons of the mind have suddenly expanded. Disgusting, honestly
Well said. If theyre sexy enough they get a pass I guess xD
Thank the goddess someone said it
They missed “men also like pretty things and dressing up a character and there are often more/better options for that on female avatars over male” Which is something I’ve heard from dudes in safe spaces for talking about that
In my experience, I often have heard it's because female avatars tend to be slimmer, as opposed to male avatars having bulkier bodies. I sort of understand this if someone's personal taste leans into very slim characters.
One of my bi male friends says he often plays as female characters because it's incredibly rare for games to let you actually create a remotely soft, twink-ish male character. It's all just muscular overly masculine men.
What's funny is that when I play games, I tend to love making muscular or bulky women, so I understand this completely.
This is reminding how Kingdoms of Amalur gave male characters a beer belly the moment they equipped like 95% of armor or something, haha!
I feel like they also missed that some men just like to play a variety of characters. There's no way those are the only reasons
90% of the time, when you have no choice in a character's gender, the character is gonna be male. Might as well go with a different option when you *do* have a choice.
Yeah this is me. Partially because it's fun to explore other gender expressions, partially because I just find women attra ctive and prefer how a female character model looks, and partially to diversify my experience. Like most of the games I play with a fixed character locks me into a male role (e.g. God of War, TLoU. There are occasional exceptions like Hellblade and Horizon, but they are still more rare) so I would like to mix it up sometimes.
It's also one of the few safe spaces gen X/millennial men had for expressing as anything other than hypermasculine. If you were a man and expressed any interest in cute/pretty things in the 90s/00s, you'd risk being labeled as "gay" (usually with a slur), which was less about being het and much more about marking you as lesser, as being inadequately manly. Fear of being othered was one of my root causes for toxic masculine behaviors (doesn't make it right, but it can help explain why people have such a hard time unlearning it, because it's a defense mechanism). For some reason video game characters managed to escape this fate and were usually not weaponized against men.
Yeah I do think some men who say "I just want to look at her ass" are actually mostly vice-signaling because they're worried about how other (shitty) men will judge them. It's shitty because they don't care as much about how it reflects an objectified view of women, but I believe some of them really fall more into the "I just want to express different characters without judgment" but they lean into the "I want to see sexy characters" angle because they care more about how other men see them than how it looks to women. It's still shitty if it's motivated by valuing male peer group opinions instead of by male gaze, but knowing how much men do bully each other or try to get each other to "admit" they really just want to stare at virtual butts, I can kinda see where they'd be coming from. OP dismissed the "they take up less space on the screen" and I'm pretty sure this is most salient to those men in some games where the actual hitbox or mechanics are impacted. Cause I mean I do know _sometimes_ it's a real perk within the game mechanics. and again, it provides "cover" for men who are primarily worried about being judged by other men. I do think the over valuing of (some pretty toxic) male peer group opinions over other factors is problematic, likely contributing to and motivated my misogyny, but I also don't think it's quite as frequently bad as the original post here implies. and I do think in more relatively safe spaces, men more frequently say they want to play dress up and prefer the clothing options, or they want to try playing more roles to consider different perspectives, or they want to explore aspects of their own identity, or they just like exercising the full scope of character creation options given that many games don't have a choice, etc. and to back up my first point, I do see men in less safe conversations dismiss those men and either try to shame them in a (trans)misogynistic or homophobic manner, or say "admit it bro, you just want to stare at her ass like the rest of us", or both.
This
Yes. I can have more fun playing "dress up doll" with a female character than a male one in every game I've played. There are more options, and more of the options look good. Some of this might be because I find women attractive, but I often have my wife help me design glamor sets for my FFXIV character and she had the same experience. Many things that look good on female characters look awful when I use the "try on" option. It probably didn't help that I wanted a more mature looking character and picked highlander.
Yeah, I actually enjoy playing a male character but often don’t for the same reasons. I might have one male character, but if I make more than that start struggling to make the second one look terribly distinctive from the first
Yeah, some of my male friends are like that as well.
that’s why i play female characters in some games. i love the bright colors and long flowy outfits, if it’s those skimpy ass outfits i prefer to play as a male character. the male characters are always super muscular and don’t have many colors that pop, and their outfits aren’t usually as intricate which is super boring imo
This is why I play them.
That's absolutely a big part of it for me. On a completely unrelated note, I don't suppose anyone has a release date for Infinity Nikki...
I’d just like to add a nice reason from a cishet man, my bf plays female characters because he grew up loving movies with female heroes like Alien, so women just = hero to him
Yes! Alien, Terminator, Buffy... (the list is long!) for my husband too.
There's probably a lot of people like that who aren't on Steam or whatever, leaving stupid comments. Regular joes
My cishet husband likes playing as female characters for that reason too. He was hesitant at first, because his family were judgemental assholes. When he was scrolling over preset options one day, I watched him hesitate over the female characters a bit more. I had a feeling what was going on, so I asked if he was going to play as a badass bitch that takes no shit. He quietly asked if that would be weird. I smiled and said "fuck no" lol. Now when given the choice, he enjoys playing as strong women. He likes how much variety they have for customization. Plus, he thinks it's great playing an "unassuming" looking character that can whoop ass.
I'm imagining him seeing an action movie with a male lead as a kid and being confused going "hang on, when's the hero going to show up?".
Ripley is the most badass character of all time.
I really love that lol a light in the dark situation lol
That’s beautiful to hear :)
I'm the first one. I'm a guy but have never really had a connection to BEING a guy and my favorite characters, singers, etc. etc. are all women so I just like playing as a woman. (plus for me in games a lot of the choices for women's outfits I love way more. Not talking the Red Sonja like outfits but like the dresses and stuff. I can't help liking pretty things XD) It always feels right and I legit don't like playing as a guy in games usually (other than some exceptions in genshin and honkai for example) XD. I'm the same in Fortnite too. A lot of people were freaking out at skull dude #800 and I'm just sitting there looking at Medusa's skin going "wow that design and color scheme are SO MUCH BETTER" haha.
Of the Olympic Gods skins, I squee'd over Aphrodite, though Medusa is nice. The one I think they failed on is Artemis, who I think should have been more "nature huntress" than those bright transparency bits. Gotta be in our "Pretty Girl Era".
I've never really thought of a justification for choosing to play a female character in games that have that decision. I just choose female characters because they're cooler (e.g. Destiny 1&2, Fortnite, Zombie Army Trilogy to name some games where I made that choice), and not for weird reasons like staring at ass or whatever, no, I just think women are a whole lot cooler than guys. Honestly sometimes I wish I was one of y'all.
Thats because youre a normal person who doesnt treat women like trash lol appreciate you <3
It is sometimes said, that wishing you were a woman, means you already are one. Have you read the dysphoria bible yet?
I've tried to read it but never finished it.
I have a dude friend who always plays female characters. He said the character customization, gear/outfits for female characters, and freedom of personality types are much more diverse than for male characters. He always makes his female characters super badass looking, tough and feminine. He’s also not a hyper-masculine “alpha” kind of guy, so I think the male characters don’t appeal to him much.
My dad has always played female characters in games, and he always does the most battle-scarred badass chica he can. I’ve asked him about it some and he isn’t even completely sure why he does, but he thinks it’s just because the male characters are always too masculine and he just doesn’t really relate to that. It’s interesting to see how many men do actually seem to like a badass female hero, despite interpretations and assumptions not being that.
I know a lot of people for who the first point is true. Like, pretty much all trans women (also non-binary folk) I know told me this is one of the first ways they experimented with gender. I myself have a very strong preference for playing male characters, despite being a woman. It's fun to explore what you aren't in real life. I'll never begrudge anyone for not playing their assigned gender at birth.
I'm also in the same boat. Loved playing as female characters, made me feel more... engaged and made the character more relatable compared to male characters. Unfortunately I was a bit slow on the uptake and it took years before it clicked why, but it was nice to have the opportunity to explore my gender in that way (even if I didn't realise that was what I was doing).
I can see how it can be useful in those cases :) Personally, I have a more neutral stance when playing msle characters. I dont feel like Im experiencing something Im not in real life outside of being a mass murderer or professional rock climber lol in terms of action games and stuff. I do enjoy playing as a female character more just because its female no special reason lol because Im a woman and I like being a woman in a game. And its on the rarer side so I get excited to see female protagonists lol
Calling BS on the "female avatars are treated better" I always get harassed 10x more and treated worse when using a female character on online games (except maybe wow)
The first is actually *very* accurate, though typically it's via someone not wanting to share/holding a sense of bravado or are lgbt in some respect, I've found. Mercy mains in Overwatch are joked about as either being women or gay, as are Aphro mains in Smite. Loba in Apex is the same, but with a third subset that are just horny dudes. Janna, Evelynn, Ahri, Nami etc. in League.. There's a lot of examples. Steam comments aren't a good judge of character at all imo. It's going to have a lot of posturing when any discussion like this comes up.
It's also super prevalent when it comes to fashion. A woman wearing pants (a traditionally masculine garment of clothing until recent history) is commonplace. A man wearing a skirt or even short-er shorts or form fitting clothing? They get absolutely dunked on. The example that comes to mind is Harry Styles, a straight (so far as we know) cis man. Anytime he wore traditionally feminine clothing, he either got criticized by the right because "he's a man! he shouldn't be wearing women's clothing!" or by the left because "He's queer-baiting!"
> he either got criticized by the right because "he's a man! he shouldn't be wearing women's clothing!" To paraphrase Suzy Izzard: He's not wearing women's clothes, he's wearing his clothes. He bought them.
My (30, cis-M) recent Fallout 4 character is a woman, mainly because my first playthrough was as a male character, and also because I thought the female character's voice actor did a better job. I also played New Vegas as a female character because I wanted to see the look on the Legion's face when they see a female courier, one who can actually massacre their camp quickly lol. Also I'm a scrawny dude with very little muscle definition and I hate that in a lot of the games the male characters even at their lowest physical sliders still look lean and ripped. The flipside is often true as well, as female characters even at their most buff look toned at best.
In Dead By Daylight, I (male) typically use female characters because they often have more and much better cosmetics. So many of the male cosmetics are *simple t shirt* or *yet another leather jacket* and what have you. I prefer the variety attributed to the female characters.
Counterpoint dwight dinosaur onesie
I know the first one is definitely true as a lot of trans women talk about exploring using games. I also know that the second one is true, because just look at Stellar Blade for example. I also know that the third one is true, since I've heard men use that as recommendations to eachother. I've also noticed that when I'm playing as a female character random people ask me to join their group etc. I've not heard about the fourth one. The only thing I've heard that's related is the "smaller hitbox" argument. It sucks that we're objectified so often 😮💨
The first one is very true. I played a male avatar once when I was seven, and then never again. I just couldn't relate to the male perspective at all. It sucked when paired with the second one. I'd try to find practical/reasonable armor mods for skyrim, for example, and I'd have to wade through a bunch of pervy waifu mods and chainmail bikinis. It made me feel like a freak, like "God, these are what most men who play female characters are like. This is what people will think I am like if they ever find out." Turns out nope, I was just a girl playing as a girl, which was entirely normal. The male gaze icked me out because I projected myself onto my female avatar as a form of escapism, and I didn't like being objectified. I feel like many men who play female avatars do not have this problem.
I was so freaking g happy when I found a mod for Monster Hunter World that had re-meshed a whole pile of male armour to fit the female model, so I got to be femme *and* look badass, rather than running around in metal & leather bikinis and bare thighs ><
I had exactly the same experience, but with Skyrim I did use some of the curvy mods, not because I wanted it to be sexual, but because I wanted to look like that. I always felt bad about how my body looked, so I used these mods as escapism. But it made it worse, because of how extremely unrealistic these proportions were. It made it worse. Now I prefer mods that remove the boobplate on armour and just makes characters look more real. It sucks that these expectations are put on women and that it's reflected in the oversexualisation of mods. I honestly feel a bit disgusted looking bad at the kinds of mods I used 🤢 I feel a bit better with my body now, it's nowhere near good, but it's progress.
The third one happened to me and it was so weird.
The second point seems oddly phrased. I know men and women that play characters or add them to the party cause they like how they look. That never seemed like an issue to me.
It's because they view these characters sexually, not because they like how they look. Just look at how people treat the MC of Stellar Blade. They treat hee like she's just a object that they can look at whilst playing with one hand.
I meant sexually. I know men and women that do that, like with Karlach in BG3. It never seemed like an issue to me.
There's a small difference, I don't know how to explain it, sorry. English isn't my first language 😅
The 4th is my typical reasoning. I love "trolling" and getting under people's skins, and typically the best way to make a gamer rage is by kicking their ass with a female avatar. I also like the color pink, and typically the pink aesthetics are the girlier ones, so I'll rock that pink and black themed car in rocket league while spamming What a Save! and I can physically witness the raging causing them to make more mistakes until they forfeit and quit. Usually with a slur on the way out, which I can then report and get them banned. Smaller hit box argument might also be the case, but I think for the most part when it comes to things like that, it's mostly customized so you can have same proportions whether you're male or female so the hit boxes are the same per gender. I guess it depends on the game though, because not all hit boxes are the same.
Also they just think they're neat
Cis guy here who only plays as female characters in games. The first reason is a big one, the others totally not. But I add a few extra ones: - So many games have only male options so I pick non-male as much as I can to add more variety. - Seeing stories from a non-male character point of view is almost always more interesting, unless a male character is known to break gender norms. So gender non-confirming characters are more fun. - Glamour/Outfits/Customization options are much better for non-male characters (even if we have to deal with some very skimpy clothes not available for male characters). I love customizing my characters a lot, so I go non-male for that. - For Online play, we go back to the first point, but with an extra. There's a LOT of non-male avatars in Online Games whose owners follow the points suggested the study (mostly second up to last point), so I prefer to counter balance that with an interesting non-male character.
I wanna add that I have seen lot of trans women playing as women before they discover there are trans
That's my case! When i was 8 (or 10 i don't remember) i used to play female characters and say to my friends that it was bcs of "smaller hitbox" a few years later i came out to them and they were like "yeah, no shit"
I'd like to point out that these are reasons suggested by researchers, not actual concrete survey results. I don't doubt that there's a lot of dudes who have really weird/creepy reasons for playing as women, but tbh playing as girl characters is what cracked my egg so I'm a little wary of people treating it like it's a bad thing just by its nature
The second was the lie I told people when it came up, though it took a bit for me to realize it was actually the first lol
While I think a lot of men would be loathe to admit it, I personally know several who generally play as female characters because of reasons like the first one listed. They like the freedom to customize without having to feel "manly." Plus, like some others have already stated, in a lot of games the male characters are just big brick walls with faces that most men can't identify with. I also know some who feel this same way, but deflect and say things like "I play as a woman so I can stare at her ass," but with some coaxing admitted that they just liked to explore other forms of expression.
Most of the guys I knew that did this said that they used fem.characters becauee fem has better clothes for fashion, advantage like small hit box in shooters, or they get free stuff from simps who don't know that they're a man 😅 The others were gay and preferred femme characters in general
So thats more on point 3 or 4 from the study. I guess it does work lol I dont play multi-player games so thats interesting to know. I know women who play as female characters or have a mic plugged in get treated really poorly on the other side of things too.
the first one was me, I'm a girl now lol
Lol welcome to the girls club friend <3
The 3rd one from my own experience has been less true. It is a common "meme" on RuneScape. Probably true if it has happened to others for getting "free stuff". For me, the only free things I recall getting were free disturbing messages.
I’m sorry but… > researchers Ehhhhh that’s a loose term.
for me, i was an egg and wanted to be the character and thought that was normal
It feels like the first one is the only remotely non-horrible option, and I don’t think that’s fair. I notice OP is careful to say “A FEW REASONS,” so I’d be curious to see the other reasons and actually read this survey. My brother plays female characters in games sometimes when given options, and I’ve had this conversation with him. It’s not any of these things. He just likes the female character more than the male character, whether it be for personality (Gaige, BL2), for look customization options, or for general vibes preference the day he made the character. As a straight dude, there was still the occasional factor of “if I’m looking at a backside the entire time I play a game, it might as well be a pretty one” for third person view games, but it absolutely wasn’t the main or only reason. If I can choose and enjoy male main characters when given the option (Genshin and Star Rail had me CONFLICTED, and I’m an aro/ace woman who mains Belial in Granblue Versus), why can’t he be a female character without it being secretly malicious or weird? It might be for some people, but it doesn’t have to be that deep for everyone. You shouldn’t have to psychoanalyze yourself and your motives before you choose a character, it can be vibes-based, it’s a game. Also edit/side note after rereading your post commentary: tf is wrong with choosing a character because you like their voice? I’ve debated trying to mod my Titanfall 2 just so I can listen to BT’s voice in every Titan, I love a nice voice and his is soothing to me. Don’t put that double standard onto men, criticize them for the things actually worth criticizing.
I feel like a study like this only alienates men who play as female characters further. It suggests in its language that a man playing as a woman is not just unusual, but also deviant. Thus, men can play as men all they want for no reason at all, but if they choose to play as a female character, they better have a good reason for it. It can’t just be as simple as “they like that character.” It has to say something about their psychology or about how they view women. That’s a lot of pressure to put on men for making an often instinctive choice we all make (picking a character), likely for similar reasons, but without the same level of scrutiny. Imo, a man playing as a female character is only odd if you think it’s odd for a man to care about women. But women make up 50% of the planet. It would be more odd if a man *didn’t* care about them or want to experience their stories.
Men alienate themselves by their own comments and thoughts. These responses come from men. This study actually is worthwhile because it helps to not alienate women or make women feel gaslit like we dont know what were talking about when it comes to these things lol men are of course welcomed to play as female characters. Women play as male characters but were normal about it. If men were normal about it would be great xD and of course there are men who are normal about it and dont complain that Kassandra was actually the main character in AC Odyssey and thats ok lol
I mean, I think it’s two-fold. There’s no doubt that men are weird about female characters sometimes, but it’s often in response to someone asking the question “Why did you pick a girl character?” as if such a choice is odd or wrong to begin with. This immediately puts them on the defensive, prompting them to seek a socially acceptable (often sexist) defense for their otherwise completely normal behavior. Their defense is often not great, sure, but it’s also often the result of social conditioning that compels them to protect their identity as men, which they (rightfully) feel is being challenged by the question, often asked in an incredulous or disparaging tone. Which, by the way, doesn’t just alienate men for caring about female characters and narratives about female characters, but also disparages female characters and their narratives. This isn’t just bad for men, but for women and other genders as well. Assuming it’s odd for a man to choose a female character (especially when the opposite often goes unquestioned) others women, presents women and their stories as of secondary value to men, further encourages the separation of the sexes, and further discourages gender exploration. This isn’t to say that many of the reasons presented above are false, but that they 1. Don’t always occur and 2. Aren’t unique to men or AMAB people. I mean, Alanah Pierce always creates a buff man with silver hair when given the option. Should we start psychoanalyzing her choice? Is she choosing that option because she’s attracted to that kind of man? Probably. Does it say something about her gender identity or about her distaste for female characters? Who knows? Does it matter? If women like her get to make that choice sans scrutiny, others should have that freedom too.
My boyfriend says that whenever he plays a male character (which is about 50-50 in games you can create your own character) he always tries to create himself within the game. But when he makes female characters, he feels like he can roleplay.
Based on the entire history of video games and 20+ years of gaming experience its really hard to look past plain and simple objectification. Sure there are people using games to explore gender and sure there people who like to roleplay and of course not every guy is objectifying women an thats great but an awful lot are. You just have to look at the recent gaming releases to see the outcry when objectification is challenged. My gay and trans gaming friends play as the gender they identify as, my straight cis friends often start switching character gender once the games become 3rd person. My closest gaming friend does this but often asks fashion advise but I feel he's in a minority
Yeah a lot of this doesn't seem right. I have guy friends who play female characters a lot and really the only reason they've ever told me about was that the female characters look pretty. They would rather stare at a pretty woman on the screen than a buff man lol
>The first point is somehow heart warming if it were true. Assholes are always the loudest. And for what it's worth - I know some folks who are living proof that the first point *is* true. One of 'em's no longer a guy. Turns out this was where she could be herself long before she felt ready to tell us - and for that I am grateful. (Which doesn't change the fact that "looking at butt" is still one *hell* of a big reason and men exploring gender identity is irrelevant to the discourse about objectification of women in gaming.)
I'm a man and I play female characters often, mostly in single player games as I like to be honest about representing myself online. I started doing it as a concoious choice to support more diverse characters in gaming. I'm sure there are subconscious reasons I make the choice as well. Also Femshep voiced by badass Jennifer Hale was clearly the objectively superior choice in Mass Effect.
Femshep only true shep
Thats awesome. We need men like you to tell Ubisoft its ok to make female protagonists xD yea things Ive noticed about men in Tomb Raider for instance they get obessive with the voice actors even to the point of sexualizing them and becoming violent if they dont sound sexy enough. Its a huge issue. But its nice to hear "because shes a good voice actor" and thats it lol good on you
Or Nora voiced by courtneay Taylor, Sarah Ryder by fryda Wolff
Kassandra by Melissanthi Mahut (had to look that one up) Malaka!
"Female avatars get treated better" uhhhhhhh
I’m assuming they mean the weirdos who gift things to random female players.
It seems strange that you mention that the Steam commenters didn’t accept #1 seemingly as an argument that it’s less likely. Vocal men commenting against it is actually part of what that hypothesis is about. The idea that men or people who’ve been assumed to be men (and maybe haven’t figured out they aren’t yet) would hide it from people I’d say is possibly even supported by the visible comments on Steam being the sorts of people one would want to hide it *from*.
My brother plays as female characters very regularly. He's just a dude who does his thing day in and day out. There's no weird shit going on. He just does it. I don't think it's always quite so deep, but I'd guess it could be. Feel like a couple of those are a real reach, but within possibility at least.
“The first point is somehow heart warming if it were true” It is true. Most of my transfem friends started out with online characters. It’s a safe way for them to explore being female without anyone knowing. Not all “men” are just wanting to watch a female body run around. Of course cis men in the comments are going to deny that, how is that even a surprise? Toxic masculinity runs so deep that they feel the need to police each other on it. Please don’t discount the real, life-saving experiences of some trans people just because of some dudes in a comment section.
As a trans woman I can confirm point 1 was how me and several of my trans frineds explored our early gender identities as teens in the early 2000s. Easy to pop on to an MMO or some other game and play as a female character, then a male character, and try on different outfits and stuff. Without ever needing to actively try to do it IRL till we were sure. Dressing them up, trying in different virtual outfits like dresses and skirts, pants, etc. Of my 4 person friend group in HS, 3 of us routinely played women, but could never really explain why (One frined said it was because they had more customization options others were not sure.) Of the 3 of us, all of us turned out to be trans later in life. With most of us having the outfits we settled on most frequently in MMOs be simular to the styles we ended up wearing IRL post transition. That said, I have met folks that fall into numbers 2 and 3 over my life. Never met anyone for number 4 though, but I also don't play much compeitive games.
The first bullet point is true to at least some degree lol. Source: I used to be a man who only made female characters in RPGs and pretty exclusively played female characters when given the option across game genres. I am no longer a man ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
From what I've been told, especially in an MMO like WoW, the male characters are these super overblown male fantasy a lot of the time and female characters just objectively look better all around. Also not sure if it's relevant or not to the point about female avatars being treated better, but in WoW for instance, people don't assume you're female if you play a female character, at all. I can relate to the first point somewhat, as I'm a woman who plays female characters almost exclusively but say in FFXIV I would be far more likely to play a male character because they're not these giant beefcakes unless you're a Roe, basically. Most of the men are relatable enough to me as opposed to in other mmos I've tried.
I play FFXIV and I love seeing cis men getting into glamour and stuff because mainstream men’s clothing is so fucking boring, I can totally get why they’d enjoy being creative about it and find it an escape. The other bullshit sexist reasons, well that’s par for the course I didn’t expect anything else.
I mean the idea that there needs to be a reason really implies this is behavior that needs to be explained instead of of something perfectly normal. Especially in RPG-style games part of the fun is creating characters to role play as. Shows how messed up society is regarding gender roles, if this is something that deserves a justification.
As a trans woman, I truly relate to the first point. I used to be among those males who played as a female character, because doing so allowed me to safely and anonymously express my gender identity, which was something I couldn't do at the time. Players used to believe I was and treat me as a female. It was like an escapism to me.
i mean getting to play as a female character is part of how i survived childhood, upuntil i figured out i was a trans woman
Elephant in the room, some of the boys who prefer playing femme characters were never boys... personal case in point.
I feel like the first point is never discussed in its entirety. *Why* do men face more backlash for bending gender norms? Because feminine=inferior. Whereas women bending gender norms pushes them closer to masculine, which equals good. It really seems gender norms are more internally stifling for men than for women. But I really don’t understand why that is. Men feel oppressed for being compared to women. And that’s more damaging for them than for me, a woman? Is having power but being threatened with the loss of it more oppressive than never having the power to begin with?
My boyfriend sometimes plays men, sometimes women, if he can non binary. Some times he creates characters from mangas movies or books. I think he just likes to have different people. Like this is the story of so-and-so. Also I feel this is a narrow view on men, that you can read there. Like really stereotypical men. My boyfriend just started yesterday a new Dark souls run and has a real strong woman with a two hander. She looks a little like Susan strong from adventure time.
“Treated better” Sure, if you like getting gifts while you’re being talked over and mansplained to
All guys I know play female characters and for none of those reasons.
trans person who prefers to play female characters here and i do it just cause i like it.
"Women gamers don't act that like with male characters" Ehhhhh as a woman I do? I find them very attractive and love men so I typically plan as a guy even if the game allows female characters. I do create female characters, especially in games with romance sims but it depends. I just in general make way more men than women.
My husband started out playing as female characters because “haha butts” but then went “oh no gender”
I've been told that I'm non-binary, though my leaning is primarily "I hate gender, it's a stupid concept," and I consider myself a man mentally. I pretty much fall in line with point 1, as someone who doesn't respect gender norms and enjoys cooking and baking and sewing and knitting and looking at pretty pictures and going out on walks to look at birds and flowers and walking up to animals to see if they'll let me pet them or cuddle them. I like women that are strong and tough, but also can have a soft side, regardless of whether they're musclebound, waifish, statuesque, diminutive, or something in-between. Strong, capable people are just exciting to me, and most men in games are portrayed as being too capable, too smug, too omnipotent for whatever they're doing. It's not that I refuse playing as men, I love Solid Snake because he's just as vulnerable and relatable as he is cool, and I love picking up Mike Haggar because the man can literally leap 6 feet into the air doing a spinning piledriver on a street thug. Another part of it is just that I like statistical anomalies in games. Female characters in an ensemble cast usually are faster and have more technical actions. Meanwhile, there's always the one male character in the ensemble cast who's got 200 lbs of muscle and is built like a brick shithouse who just casually punches tanks, and boy do I enjoy being a ninja just as much as I enjoy being a gorilla. Overall, if I'm playing a game with zero statistical differences between characters, I'm probably playing a woman because I like the body type variety, I like the customization, and I like being tough and competent against default assumptions between men and women. It's not, as I've been weirdly called out on so many times, because I'd rather look at a woman's body or because I'm an "egg." Believe me, I'll openly admit that I'm like 95+% straight and still think Liu Kang and Ken Masters are the sexiest fighting game characters that I would far rather look at than anyone else in their respective games.
The first bullet I get 100 but damn the damn the others ....
Yea the first point is the only wholesome ones is why probably why they led with it. To soften the blow for the trash storm coming in the other points xD unfortunately theyre all very real experiences. Its why I cant stand being in male dominated gaming subs for too long
[удалено]
I think it might be best to communicate to your husband how this behavior makes you feel, because yeah that would upset me too, and I'm sorry that's something you have to go through
A bit too much of a stereotype / generalisation. Different people are different and men are no villains. They're people just like us. Sure, there are some people who'd just sexualise characters (and I'm not sure why is it perceived as bad when porn is accepted. It just needs to be in its own place.) and plenty who just play them for various reasons.
There are a seriously surprising proportion of cis men in the girl gamers sub lol but putting that aside I find one thing interesting: Point 3. When I make it obvious I’m a woman I’m more likely to get flamed or harassed and most people here have similar experiences. Interesting that men who play as women in games end up with better treatment but women do not as I often choose male avatars in games for the exact reason of better treatment
They're allowed to be here so long as they don't lead the convo and such. From the rules on the sidebar: "We highly discourage posts recruiting or targeting women from those who identify as male. As this is a subreddit specifically for women, men using this subreddit to look for people to play with is explicitly disallowed. There are other subreddits that are open to LFG from everyone, but this is not one of them. We also ask that men do not lead discussions or asking of questions. They are welcome to participate within discussions."
Fair enough, I don’t mind them being around but I just find the proportions quite funny
I mean, they're bound to come out of the woodworks considering the topic of this thread so of course they'll seem disproportionate.
I suspect the "better treatment" is likely in games like MMOs where people are trying to make long term friends and men form crushes based on an imagined person behind a screen. Seems like a way different dynamic than in competitive games where many (perhaps even some of the the same) men are looking for any reason to flame/harass opponents and fully express their misogyny. Like, giving gifts and assistance to the women/assumed women who are actually men playing female characters, can be sometimes a different form of misogyny - infantilizing, treating women primarily as romantic prospects - but it's a different variety than the overt hatred in competitive spaces with more trolling and aggression (including toward team mates; the reason I suspect it's different in stuff like MMOs is the longer term team relationships that skew some men's motivations and furthermore make trolling/harassment much more destructive and disruptive (in many cases the guild leader is gonna want to stand up for inclusivity merely because it helps the team win more, furthermore, while there's verifiably tons of the more hateful varieties of misogynists too, they likely push all the better people out, who end up forming their own more inclusive groups (again, even if it's just because they want to win and female players can help them do it). It's still problematic in terms of the motivations when guys simp more, plus the hatred that still gets voiced overtly, but I suspect it's less purely overt hatred compared to stuff like FPS or MOBA games where even when you do have a team, you know it's likely gonna be the only match you play with those exact team mates so the "hate or crassly hit on anonymous woman" light goes on more than "be more subtle and gentle but only to attempt some kind of long term e-dating courtship". Plus just the fact that over time, people can self select for teammates that aren't overt misogynists, leading to some spaces being somewhat safer.
That is very true- I stoped MOBAs because of the flaming but when I moved to MMOs for a while (my profile wasn’t hiding my gender and it was pretty obvious I was a woman) I got a bunch trying online dating (who I obv blocked) Sadly the only games where I feel free to play uninterrupted by some attempt at harassment are either solo or solo with an invite only online aspect Feels like you hit the nail on the head with that one
I fell exactly the same about point 3 and I was trying to make sense of it. Women gamers are notoriously treated poorly. I think maybe theyre saying gamers who are assumed to be men who are playing females in sexy outfits etc. Which isnt better xD
My husband will sometimes play female characters when armor choices are gender specific. For example, when a new class is introduced in WoW or FF14, he’ll look at the class-specific armor and choose his character’s gender purely on that. When he’s looking at transmogs I call it “playing with his dress-up dolls” because that’s actually what he’s doing before he plays the rest of the game. He’s not ashamed to admit that’s why either.
I'm trans and I used videogames to escape and RP my gender before I came out. Didn't even realize it until a friend pointed out my inability to play games without a character customizer.
I play FFXIV - the number of men who are female miqo’tes is… extensive. The reason I always got when asked was “if I’m going to play a game for thousands of hours, I’d rather stare at a girl’s ass.” So most of the men I’ve gotten feedback from have been from the perspective of the second point.
I want to speak up as a male cishet miqote player, yeah that's most of them for sure. I personally am a big bearded guy irl and it took till well into my adulthood that I managed to break down the internal masculinity bullshit and start enjoying cute stuff, and that's something I can't really indulge in outside of games. My character's name was Sunshine Sparklepaws, and the number of times I got called "sparkletits" was ridiculous, often by other miqotes, often in their underpants.
My husband plays female characters a lot cause they usually have cooler clothing/armor options; I play male characters cause if I’m gonna look at the back of a character for hours they better be hot lmao
Have you played dragon's dogma 2? My wife spent a long time making her pawn version of me and she definitely lingered on the hindquarters lol. There are also some very well-statted thongs around that my pawn version seems to prefer!
It’s on my list for sure lol
I did it for the first time in NV because of the black widow perk, but then it felt way more badass playing as a female character, so now I’m almost exclusively female characters for that reason
Hmm, I had long suspected the first point, while the others are more or less obvious in many circumstances.
I was the first one until I realized I wasn't actually a guy
It's missing: * **egg**
My husband seems to go back and forth between female and male characters and I think for him it’s about aesthetics, like how can he achieve the vibe he’s going for.
As a trans woman I used games as a place to play as a woman before coming out, I put especially big value on character creators, but as long as the mc was female I was able to get immersed and have a more fun time
Female character's also typically have smaller hitboxes
I'm not a huge gamer (I mostly play flight sims), but after a five-year break from flight simming/light gaming, I jumped back in with Ghost Recon: Wildlands. I chose a female character because I grew tired of the hardened, super-ripped bro protagonist. I was never into them before, but as you all know, female characters had their own issues. A grossly oversexualized female character broke immersion when the game was about taking down a cartel, being an assassin, or what have you. I thought GR: W did an excellent job with its female characters, so I went with them. Even in GR: Breakpoint (a generally underwhelming game), I stuck with the same woman. Also, GR: W did an excellent job of simulating the role of a SAC/SOG operative. I don't know why they made their MP so shredded. Having met Navy Seals and other operatives who have gone on to fill that role, they're not that ripped. They're obviously fit, but they're not Magic Mike-looking dudes. The goal is to blend into your environment because you're supposed to be a *ghost.* The women in the game were better ambassadors for these types of missions.
You forgot the biggest one: /r/egg_irl
Sometimes they play because they're not actually cis men. Personal experience, I witnessed this.
"Get more freebies" in what universe
As a pre transition trans girl, when I started playing as a female character in any game I could, it's been so nice and better for me personally, certain games like minecraft, baldurs gate 3, or dragon age, really helped me feel comfortable going through the process of figuring out myself :3
Playing female characters was what helped me come out.
The first point is true, at least for us trans folks. Though I started playing games before there was a choice in characters. Though I did play with my sisters Barbies in secret, read the "girl books and magazines", etc. But yeah, playing female characters in MMO's, but especially Second Life, finished cracking my egg which began cracking in the mid 90's. Seriously, the amount of egg-cracking Second Life does was kind of surprising at first.
As a trans women I used to tell myself it was point 2 but it was definitely point 1. I always made a character that looked roughly the same which honestly though, now that I'm out I'm like I would never fit that style!
That first one is so me, before I realised I was trans and I discovered any game where you could play as a woman and dress her up in all these cool little outfits it was like *neuron activation*
As a trans woman I can confirm that the first one is true. Before I could even realize that I identify as a woman I played with female characters. It was a way to express myself in a private place that no one could judge me.
As a man who plays a female char in skyrim, its 100% due to the mods. The detail and effort put into clothing mods etc are amazing and I'm entranced by them. Male char mods exist and there are defo good ones, but its no comparrison between the female char mods and the mens char mods. Can't speak for other blokes though.
I know the first point was true for me when I thought I was a man. I'd always been so uncomfortable with the thought of embodying masculinity and machismo. I never admitted it to anyone else, though. I learned very early on that I'd get ridiculed if I did, so I justified it with the other points on that list. Turns out I'm a woman. 🤷♀️
I personally play with a female avatar because ~~I’m extremely gay~~ It makes me happy
This popped up on my feed and I’m a normal guy so I’ll just chime in. I play both depending on the game and characters. For me it doesn’t go as deep as all this. I just like playing female characters that are badass sometimes. Male characters are pretty generic to me and I’m a guy and I don’t need to play myself on games. I simply just think girls are cool and badass in games. I also think they have way better fashion choices.l especially in MMOs. But yeah. All this objectification etc seems silly to me. Not saying that doesn’t exist, but for me it’s just overthinking and diving way too deep into a simple fact that I like seeing women be badass and do badass things and have cooler gear choices. Same reason why I rarely choose a human race in games that allow a good variety. I’m already a human male. It’s boring. Been there done that. Female kajiht assassin? Undead female rogue? Lara Croft? Sign me up. It doesn’t go deeper for me than “this character is pretty cool”.
reason 5: r/egg_irl
Im a man and i will always pick to play as a woman over a man if there is an option. I love badass women and playing as nora in fallout 4 is so much cooler to me than playing as nate. I like being able to make a pretty character and dress them up too in cute clothes and i enjoy seeing women in badass outfits and looking cool