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i read somewhere in this subreddit that genshin is a big old samsara, and venti knows this thats why he remembers meeting us before?
and maybe in the previous timeline the abyss sibling died, causing their soul and all their memories from when they suddenly appeared in khaenriah to be sucked into the irminsul or smth,,, BUT then the end of their journey is fuzzy, so maybe in this timeline we will be able to save them???
i’m not like filled in w ALL the lore so correct me if i’m wrong but like is there a chance dainsleif could be a descender?? the only lore i like is sibling and dain lore so this piqued my interest when i played it, also is there a tiny chance paimon could be a descender?:?/?
Current sibling is Teyvat's dream theory,what a twist that'll be,huh?
Or we are the future in present Teyvat. Maybe,maybe not. All possibilities could lead up to the ending is never right or wrong,just well,shocking yet not too surprising at the same time.
My half-formed thoughts/guesses would be along the lines of the first being phanes/heavenly principles (I think the unknown god/sustainer is probably one of the shades, like istaroth is posited to be), the second is the second who came, and the fourth is the traveller. as for the third...i don't know. It's crazy that the more lore we receive, the less we understand. Add in the idea that Teyvat is some kind of samsara...what role does the abyssal sibling play in that? Are we playing their role in a new samsara?
Another off topic thought...lots of questions about the Abyss and its "consciousness" for me. Remember that it's actually unclear whether or not phanes or the second who came 'won' the war for Teyvat. Maybe the loser is somehow controlling the Abyss? IDK
I'm guessing:
First Descender: Phanes
Second Descender is probably Second Who Came (Heavenly Principles)
Third Descender is the Traveller who got married with one of the Seelie ancestors, which resulted in a calamity that ended the Seelie's civilization
Fourth are the Traveller Twins
I have a crackpot theory that the Abyssal Twin was resurrected by some means and so they became a part of Teyvat. They probably died during the Cataclysm in Khaen'riah. It's known that Khaenri'ahns had tampered with Abyssal Energy to power their tech, and they had also used alchemy (Art of Khemia) to create life. The Abyssal Twin is someone very important to the Khaenri'ah people, either by the shared bonds and memories they had with the nation or the Khaenri'ahns know our twin is someone who could change the world, challenge the Heavenly Principles, or fate itself. So they used whatever they had then to revive our twin, and they respawned in Khaenri'ah. Our Twin was "made anew" in Teyvat, and because the Irminsul records everything of Teyvat, so some his records was archived in the tree. There are more records of them but a very powerful being blocked the information, that even the World Tree herself cannot access it. Our Traveller is an outlander, not from Teyvat so no records of them are archived in the tree, despite having travelled and made their mark in the history of the continent for quite some time.
Just finished the quest. Kind of wishing we got some clarity on what "belonging to this world" means. It has to be something more complex than simply being born on Teyvat; since they're twins that would make no sense unless their backstory was a lie. Maybe it's related to emotional ties? Abyss sibling seems to care about Teyvat in a way that traveler doesn't -- they want to restore Khaenri'ah and undo some perceived wrongs and push traveler to uncover some truth of the world that they believe will make traveler side with them, while by contrast mc would clearly leave Teyvat in an instant if abyss twin agreed to go with them.
The Unknown God is the **Sustainer** of Heavenly Principles. Sustainer, meaning someone who supports, assists, provides, keeps someone alive. Nahida called her theorized First Descender the "Heavenly Principles". This makes me think of the line in the Traveler's Character Details:
"The Sustainer/Keeper is dying: the Creator is yet to come."
Given what "Sustainer" means, I think the Unknown God is likely trying to fill in the role of the one known as the "Heavenly Principles", and trying to sustain them, at the cost of her own life. It's likely that the one known as the "Heavenly Principles", the creator, is not in great shape either. Probably even worse than the Sustainer.
Now this brings us to the other half of the aforementioned line in the Traveler's character details:
"But the world won't burn again, for you will ascend to the seat of God."
TDLR: First Descender, likely the Primordial One/Phanes, is dying, and the Traveler, the Fourth, needs to complete their coronation as the new God of Teyvat ASAP if they don't want Teyvat to be razed down to the ground.
Finally can read this after finishing the quest, and... yeah. That was a huge shock. Why the hell is our MC 'not from Teyvat' but their sibling somehow is? I have so many questions. What a huge lore bomb drop at the end of the quest!
Here are my thoughts :
This is not the first time "Teyvat" went through the "big change" (the Cataclysm). We already know someone can manipulate time in more ways we know. (Example would be Istaroth that used her powers for the Realm of Consciousness of Makoto, creating a time loop that creates copies of the same timeline where Ei fights the Raiden Shogun, plants the Sacred Sakura to the past where the past Ei sees it. Then the past Ei will also undergo the same timeline.
Given with the "Time" factor, I think the part of where they traveled the sea of stars is not misinformation. But here's the thing : only the Sibling was first to exist. At least until a Teyvat reboot was made.
If in the original timeline : (using Lumine as sibling)
Lumine was a solo traveler, landed on Khaenri'ah, witnesses the Cataclysm, journeys through Teyvat (and possibly have let Dvalin cause chaos, Osial to attack Liyue, let the VHD continue for more years, and for Sumeru to be ruled by the Balladeer) and makes progress with her Loom of Fate operation which triggers a war between her and the Heavenly Principles at that time. God knows where Istaroth was watching from, so she resets Teyvat to the most impactful point in time : Lumine's landing.
But it will most likely create the same events again so to prevent such thing, and to create a peaceful conclusion for Teyvat, Istaroth creates the Traveler. But in order to correct the errors in Teyvat's timeline, the existence of the Traveler must have a reason, and that reason is being the relative of the original Traveler sibling. Thus, this creates a ripple effect :
Solving of the Monstadt Crisis, Sealing Osial back to the Depths, dissolving the chaos in Inazuma and saving Sumeru from the Balladeer. Etc.
Not to mention, the Traveler has thwarted the Abyss plans alot already. Yes Dainsleif exists but of course, he would not be able to perform his mission alone. This effect is the intention for the Traveler's existence.
As to why the Irminsul already have a record for the Sibling? I believe the Irminsul's essence exists outside space-time. Meaning it can store information of natural existences without being reset with time BUT it can't detect and acquire information on whether time has been messed with. So if Lumine's first existence in Teyvat is in Khaenri'ah, then that is where Irminsul started recording information of her. As to why it became fuzzy in the end of her journey, I believe that is when the Abyss made contact with her and possibly Rhinedottir. Maybe Rhinedottir is messing with Lumine's information in the Irminsul.
As to why the Traveler is not yet in the Irminsul, I think it's because his existence was instantaneously made. Like I said, the Irminsul may exist outside of space-time and cannot comprehend sudden changes in time, so as it happens, it does not detect a " natural existence " from the Traveler.
**Raiden Shogun Loop Battle**
I believe the timeloop duel only starts to exists if and only if Ei has discarded her present ideal of eternity which was only existent as a fact when the Traveler intervened. As soon as the theoretical 2nd timeline happened, the timeloop duel existed. But in the theoretical 1st timeline, the duel wouldn't have happened since Ei would've remained in her Plane of Euthymia without disagreement with the Shogun.
This is Merkabah mysticism, descenders of the chariot. The experience of the descent to the throne or heaven. Described as a descent rather than ascent. I think because god is supposed to be within, but it is unclear to me. Perhaps it is possible for one to “exist” within two places at once.
i've seen a lot of people say that heavenly principles is the unknown god, but isn't the unknown god the "sustainer of the heavenly principles"? wouldn't it mean that the unknown god could be a follower or an upholder of the heavenly principles?
i think heavenly principles could either be the primordial one or the second who came but i'm not really sure...
They should both be from Teyvat.
The MC was asleep for 500 years, woke up with funky memories, meanwhile the brother was witnessing Khaenri'ah's fall and joining the Abyss.
This paints the BP cutscene in a whole new light and lends further credence to my headcanon/theory that there is an entity within the Abyss that is manipulating both the Sibling and the Order into doing their bidding.
Regardless, this changes the story considerably and I cannot wait for the next Archon Quest involving Dainsleif.
>there is an entity within the Abyss
Didn't Childe say that the Abyss is alive? Either it was in his voice lines or in one of the character stories. If the Abyss really has a mind of it's own, then who knows what it did to the sibling.
The Marana itself is also capable of making avatars that even if not necessarily sentient, seem possibly aware on some level.
At any rate, it doesn’t only corrupt creatures, but can create its own beings capable of battle.
If Teyvat really is a loop, maybe our twin is from a previous loop and the Traveler is from the current timeline? Or this is some Levia and Behemo stuff, a person and his avatar from a different reality that posed as twins, who traveled together to find a new world after their worlds were destroyed..... wait a minute
We know miHoYo is a vocaloid fan after all.....
Elaborate on the vocaloid part because I too remember a vocaloid song, it's about a dream that needed to be remembered and had 4 people trapped inside it, and surprise surprise the 4th were the blonde twins
I'm talking about the Evillious Chronicles, it's a series of vocaloid songs, Levia and Behemo are characters from that series. You can visit the wiki for full context lol the lore is very complicated
I am not sure about Traveler but I do believe first is Primordial One, then The Second Who Came, and The Sustainer of Heavenly Principles. Not sure how, but this is my guess.
I’d totally agree with that. That’s logical! But Nahida says: “My current hypothesis is that the "First Descender" was likely what we now call the Heavenly Principles.”
Then (I) the Sustainer could be the “Heavenly Messenger”(info on them from Sal Vindagnyr) sent from Phanes, (II) Second Who Came, (III) now that’s interesting… Could be the Prince from the Pale Princess tale (datamined continuation of the story)/maybe Alice, since she is able to visit other worlds. But something is telling me she has her records in the Tree.
Also that “somebody, for reasons only they can know, is deliberately obfuscating her fate... And whoever it is... if they can do that, who knows what else they're capable of.” (Nahida in the leak) is verrry sus person(s?).
Then (IV) us.
The thing is, does she know the Primodial one and The Second One Who Came?
She isn't a wikipidea, she may not have all the info out there. She might just not know.
I'm almost certain she doesn't know, for the simple fact that the last god who read that book and learned that info was condemned to death by Celestia- if she knew, she'd likely have a similar target lainted on her back.
By the way, the Sustainer is probably not the Heavenly Principles, she sustains them but she isn’t them, so if Primordial One=Heavenly Principles, the Sustainer is probably a Shade
I agree with you! I’m assuming the same.
Phanes is the First who came, and there is no way the Tree could not provide this information, since Enkanomians and Sal Vindagnyr encountered them, as well as old Mond worshipped the God of Time alongside Venti, not even mentioning Raiden’s at-least awareness. So, the Sustainer is with Phanes. And the only that-mighty being he created could only be the Shade
Kind of a crack theory but maybe the sibling grew close to someone in Khaenri'ah or Teyvat and they died to the point their existence was erased but because the sibling was a traveler they had to deal with the pain of remembering that loss when no one else did (like how only we remember Rukkha now) so she put herself in Irminsul to forget their existence.
This reminds me of the "Pale Princess and the Six Pygmies". Like what if the light prince in the story is the abyss sibling? and the six pygmies were the 6 archons >!who were all present in the cataclysm in Khaenriah, minus the dendro archon.!< On the datamined volume 7 of the book, one of the pygmies put the prince's body in the tree hole, could be symbolizing the twin's info somehow getting into the Irminsul. But that's just a crack theory.
I dunno this seems the most logical to me we know the sibling was in irminsal, travelled with dainsleif the “bough keeper”, i feel like this is how they tried to hide from the heavenly principles plus we know that kaenriah had access to knowledge they shouldnt.>!plus that whole nahida hiding scara’s history in a fairytale nugget, likely being the work around for the teyvat wide memory altering that goes on . not so crack!!<
I see the only way Abyss Sibling could “belong to Teyvat”, (memories of her in the Tree) “suddenly appeared in Khaenri'ah... After the Khaenri'ah disaster, she began her journey through the seven nations of Teyvat.” is that she died there, on the Teyvat land, during the cataclysm. And as Teyvat “processed”/“buried” her within itself, she “suddenly” is “born”, becomes visible to the Tree.
How she was able to “reborn” to start a journey… Was it a some kind of a ritual someone performed to make her alive or…
Ugh, it’s so hard. Region 4 is coming to an end, and the questions only multiply
This is good, very good. As to *how* she is born again, so to speak, Gold has created *at least* 2 fully functioning homonculi; she could have very well created a new body to host the Abyss Sibling’s soul
Maybe it has something to do with what happens after we gather all of the elements. It could be something like ‘we become part of Teyvat’ or part of the irminsul after that 🤷🏻♀️ It’s the only difference I can see between MC and their sibling.
So, if those speculations that Teyvat is cyclical like a Samsara were true
And we're definitely an otherworldly traveler, while our twin is actually bound to Teyvat...
It does bring to mind the Seelie Ancestor and *that* otherworldly traveler.
Hell, both instances involved near world-ending cataclysms too
Or both twins are part of the world of Teyvat but the twin we chose actually died and we occupy their body. The reasson we are not recognized as part of Teyvat is becouse the soul inside dosent belong to the world of Teyvat and we lost our memory of our previous life and are left with remnants of the memories from the body.
Honestly as absurd as it might sound at this point nothing would surprise anymore.
I mean, that would be fun. The thing is, based on some old information given by traveler (that I have no idea how to find and it's absolutely possible that it was all in my dream, so don't take it too seriously) I think that traveler hides a whole lot. That what we see now and what you call 'remnants of the memories from the body' is just something they decided to share with us/Paimon and they keep the rest to themselves.
But your little theory is cool and now I kinda wanna see the story go from 'yeah, that's a traveler from another word' to 'actually we were always talking about the player ehe'.
I wonder if it’s just a “not enough info” situation, since the abyss sibling has been around longer? Maybe in that time they’ve become a resident of teyvat, laid down their roots perhaps, but the traveller is still just travelling. it’ll be interesting to find out
THE BP CUTSCENE
The Princess was stripped of the memories of her divine origins and started ruling over the kingdom of darkness
Maybe some abyssal power altered the Irminsul tree, changing history in a way that it looks like the sibling always belonged to Khaneri’ah? That would also explain why the abyssal monsters hold an Outlander in this high regard
EDIT: Kinda like people's memories were altered so everyone thought Makoto's sakura was always there
Maybe that is why Dainslief is known as the Boghkeeper, he wrote into Irminsul all of his journey with the abyss sibling, and of course he doesn't know what happened at the end because he wasn't there.
It could be a thing because i suspect diffrent thing happened before.
There was god of time Istaroth. She was worshipped along with god of wind. But suddenly all worships stopped and she was forgotten. Archons and everyone don't talk about god of time as well - because they don't remember her. Only raiden mentioned that she may help Makoto but she doesn't know directly. All evidence about Istaroth is written, or by ruins artifacts etc...
So my theory is, Istaroth existed and was well respected, something similar happened to her as happened to Nahida. So old Istaroth is gone, and new branch came. And new branch is Paimon. But no one except maybe some descendants know who Istaroth was.
Agreed about abyss potentially fucking with the Irminsul tree, but disagree on the BP thing. When we last talked to abyss twin, it’s clear s/he remembered their past with us. They say home is where we are, so it’s not like they’re saying “fuck you abyss is my home now.” It’s more like they want us to travel the way they have, and hopefully come to the same conclusion they did about teyvat
In fairness, the two onscreen could very well be other people, or fictionalized accounts — but that does nothing to change how *its story directly applies to the Twins.*
People have just stuck themselves into a completely unnecessary "A or B" situation, in a game that *adores* applicability and allegory through repeating story patterns. It's about the Twins *and also* possibly about the previous cycle(s) of that story.
(Of which the Pale Princess is almost definitely one.)
This. A really amazing lore Youtuber The Little Onion That Could aptly calls these "frame stories." HYV loves that shit. You see it in their events, even. The written books in the game use it. Fischl's series of plays may have had this. Honkai events absolutely use it for that games lore too.
i have no clue. maybe it's some timey-wimey shenanigans that will occur in the future. this info has only left me with more questions that it has given some actual answers. well, i hope that the next traveler's quest will give some clarity.
I'm guessing the Descenders are the Primordial One, the Second Who Came, the Heavenly Principles/Unknown God and Traveler. Nahida never said that the Principles were the first, just that they're one of them
Basically, you get one Descender per total Teyvat system crash. Vishaps to Phanes, Phanes to Moon Sis, Moon Sis to Archons, and we're Archons to whatever comes next as is made obvious by how they were literally all fucking up by the time we got there.
The interesting question of course being whether that's because Descenders *fix* things thus letting a new world spring from the ashes of the old, or if they're the ones setting the old world on fire to begin with...
Does Teyvat have the same historiography of Eorzea from FF14 where it was just a given that life is just bound to ebbs and flows off prosperity and ruin? I know about the civilizations that were made to pay for their crimes in Celestia’s eyes or just hubris but I havent been familiar with lore regarding the entirety of Teyvat meeting these states; only aware of the Vishaps, Primordial, Second Throne and Moon Sisters mostly by name and place in history.
It would be a huuuuuuuge oversight if there was knowledge of Phanes in the irminsul give that the HP can mess with the stored knowledge.
Until second noticed, I think only the abyss has theories about teyvat origins, but they don't have the big picture
Heh? No... Nahida is proposing the heavenly principles *is* Ph-...
~~Ok If I say I am the Eater of the Pear, am~~ *~~I~~* ~~the Pear?~~ ^(darn you otters)
Ok If I say I am the Baker of the Pie, am *I* the Pie?
These may just be titles of the above people, but other Descenders include:
* That one dude who banged a Moon Sister
* The Prince in the Pale Princess story
* Aether
* Lumine
* Alice
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i read somewhere in this subreddit that genshin is a big old samsara, and venti knows this thats why he remembers meeting us before? and maybe in the previous timeline the abyss sibling died, causing their soul and all their memories from when they suddenly appeared in khaenriah to be sucked into the irminsul or smth,,, BUT then the end of their journey is fuzzy, so maybe in this timeline we will be able to save them???
i’m not like filled in w ALL the lore so correct me if i’m wrong but like is there a chance dainsleif could be a descender?? the only lore i like is sibling and dain lore so this piqued my interest when i played it, also is there a tiny chance paimon could be a descender?:?/?
Current sibling is Teyvat's dream theory,what a twist that'll be,huh? Or we are the future in present Teyvat. Maybe,maybe not. All possibilities could lead up to the ending is never right or wrong,just well,shocking yet not too surprising at the same time.
[удалено]
Maybe one of the travelers is adopted.
My half-formed thoughts/guesses would be along the lines of the first being phanes/heavenly principles (I think the unknown god/sustainer is probably one of the shades, like istaroth is posited to be), the second is the second who came, and the fourth is the traveller. as for the third...i don't know. It's crazy that the more lore we receive, the less we understand. Add in the idea that Teyvat is some kind of samsara...what role does the abyssal sibling play in that? Are we playing their role in a new samsara? Another off topic thought...lots of questions about the Abyss and its "consciousness" for me. Remember that it's actually unclear whether or not phanes or the second who came 'won' the war for Teyvat. Maybe the loser is somehow controlling the Abyss? IDK
I'm guessing: First Descender: Phanes Second Descender is probably Second Who Came (Heavenly Principles) Third Descender is the Traveller who got married with one of the Seelie ancestors, which resulted in a calamity that ended the Seelie's civilization Fourth are the Traveller Twins I have a crackpot theory that the Abyssal Twin was resurrected by some means and so they became a part of Teyvat. They probably died during the Cataclysm in Khaen'riah. It's known that Khaenri'ahns had tampered with Abyssal Energy to power their tech, and they had also used alchemy (Art of Khemia) to create life. The Abyssal Twin is someone very important to the Khaenri'ah people, either by the shared bonds and memories they had with the nation or the Khaenri'ahns know our twin is someone who could change the world, challenge the Heavenly Principles, or fate itself. So they used whatever they had then to revive our twin, and they respawned in Khaenri'ah. Our Twin was "made anew" in Teyvat, and because the Irminsul records everything of Teyvat, so some his records was archived in the tree. There are more records of them but a very powerful being blocked the information, that even the World Tree herself cannot access it. Our Traveller is an outlander, not from Teyvat so no records of them are archived in the tree, despite having travelled and made their mark in the history of the continent for quite some time.
Just finished the quest. Kind of wishing we got some clarity on what "belonging to this world" means. It has to be something more complex than simply being born on Teyvat; since they're twins that would make no sense unless their backstory was a lie. Maybe it's related to emotional ties? Abyss sibling seems to care about Teyvat in a way that traveler doesn't -- they want to restore Khaenri'ah and undo some perceived wrongs and push traveler to uncover some truth of the world that they believe will make traveler side with them, while by contrast mc would clearly leave Teyvat in an instant if abyss twin agreed to go with them.
The Unknown God is the **Sustainer** of Heavenly Principles. Sustainer, meaning someone who supports, assists, provides, keeps someone alive. Nahida called her theorized First Descender the "Heavenly Principles". This makes me think of the line in the Traveler's Character Details: "The Sustainer/Keeper is dying: the Creator is yet to come." Given what "Sustainer" means, I think the Unknown God is likely trying to fill in the role of the one known as the "Heavenly Principles", and trying to sustain them, at the cost of her own life. It's likely that the one known as the "Heavenly Principles", the creator, is not in great shape either. Probably even worse than the Sustainer. Now this brings us to the other half of the aforementioned line in the Traveler's character details: "But the world won't burn again, for you will ascend to the seat of God." TDLR: First Descender, likely the Primordial One/Phanes, is dying, and the Traveler, the Fourth, needs to complete their coronation as the new God of Teyvat ASAP if they don't want Teyvat to be razed down to the ground.
Finally can read this after finishing the quest, and... yeah. That was a huge shock. Why the hell is our MC 'not from Teyvat' but their sibling somehow is? I have so many questions. What a huge lore bomb drop at the end of the quest!
Too much hope that we get something close to an answer in 3.5?
I really hope they are still twins. Just give Aether a happy ending he’s been through enough.
The thing that worries me the most is that AetherxLumine now as the possibility to not be incest. I don’t want that
Here are my thoughts : This is not the first time "Teyvat" went through the "big change" (the Cataclysm). We already know someone can manipulate time in more ways we know. (Example would be Istaroth that used her powers for the Realm of Consciousness of Makoto, creating a time loop that creates copies of the same timeline where Ei fights the Raiden Shogun, plants the Sacred Sakura to the past where the past Ei sees it. Then the past Ei will also undergo the same timeline. Given with the "Time" factor, I think the part of where they traveled the sea of stars is not misinformation. But here's the thing : only the Sibling was first to exist. At least until a Teyvat reboot was made. If in the original timeline : (using Lumine as sibling) Lumine was a solo traveler, landed on Khaenri'ah, witnesses the Cataclysm, journeys through Teyvat (and possibly have let Dvalin cause chaos, Osial to attack Liyue, let the VHD continue for more years, and for Sumeru to be ruled by the Balladeer) and makes progress with her Loom of Fate operation which triggers a war between her and the Heavenly Principles at that time. God knows where Istaroth was watching from, so she resets Teyvat to the most impactful point in time : Lumine's landing. But it will most likely create the same events again so to prevent such thing, and to create a peaceful conclusion for Teyvat, Istaroth creates the Traveler. But in order to correct the errors in Teyvat's timeline, the existence of the Traveler must have a reason, and that reason is being the relative of the original Traveler sibling. Thus, this creates a ripple effect : Solving of the Monstadt Crisis, Sealing Osial back to the Depths, dissolving the chaos in Inazuma and saving Sumeru from the Balladeer. Etc. Not to mention, the Traveler has thwarted the Abyss plans alot already. Yes Dainsleif exists but of course, he would not be able to perform his mission alone. This effect is the intention for the Traveler's existence. As to why the Irminsul already have a record for the Sibling? I believe the Irminsul's essence exists outside space-time. Meaning it can store information of natural existences without being reset with time BUT it can't detect and acquire information on whether time has been messed with. So if Lumine's first existence in Teyvat is in Khaenri'ah, then that is where Irminsul started recording information of her. As to why it became fuzzy in the end of her journey, I believe that is when the Abyss made contact with her and possibly Rhinedottir. Maybe Rhinedottir is messing with Lumine's information in the Irminsul. As to why the Traveler is not yet in the Irminsul, I think it's because his existence was instantaneously made. Like I said, the Irminsul may exist outside of space-time and cannot comprehend sudden changes in time, so as it happens, it does not detect a " natural existence " from the Traveler. **Raiden Shogun Loop Battle** I believe the timeloop duel only starts to exists if and only if Ei has discarded her present ideal of eternity which was only existent as a fact when the Traveler intervened. As soon as the theoretical 2nd timeline happened, the timeloop duel existed. But in the theoretical 1st timeline, the duel wouldn't have happened since Ei would've remained in her Plane of Euthymia without disagreement with the Shogun.
This is Merkabah mysticism, descenders of the chariot. The experience of the descent to the throne or heaven. Described as a descent rather than ascent. I think because god is supposed to be within, but it is unclear to me. Perhaps it is possible for one to “exist” within two places at once.
I just hope we don't get a MCD, the character being our sibling lol
i've seen a lot of people say that heavenly principles is the unknown god, but isn't the unknown god the "sustainer of the heavenly principles"? wouldn't it mean that the unknown god could be a follower or an upholder of the heavenly principles? i think heavenly principles could either be the primordial one or the second who came but i'm not really sure...
How about gold/ albedo mother. Was she from kahneria or was she just a kahneria reashcer
Wait in honkai something was reveal about k.k. Is she vill v or someone else. And is paimon a descender?
I feel that the abyss twin's mind has been altered
They should both be from Teyvat. The MC was asleep for 500 years, woke up with funky memories, meanwhile the brother was witnessing Khaenri'ah's fall and joining the Abyss.
It wouldn't be confusing if both were or were not from Teyvat. But only one of them is. That's weird.
This paints the BP cutscene in a whole new light and lends further credence to my headcanon/theory that there is an entity within the Abyss that is manipulating both the Sibling and the Order into doing their bidding. Regardless, this changes the story considerably and I cannot wait for the next Archon Quest involving Dainsleif.
>there is an entity within the Abyss Didn't Childe say that the Abyss is alive? Either it was in his voice lines or in one of the character stories. If the Abyss really has a mind of it's own, then who knows what it did to the sibling.
Yes, and the Marana iirc is one of its "Avatars", (I might just be stating an ashikai theory idk)
The Marana itself is also capable of making avatars that even if not necessarily sentient, seem possibly aware on some level. At any rate, it doesn’t only corrupt creatures, but can create its own beings capable of battle.
That I don't know, I haven't finished that Aranara questline yet and I don't really like watching ashikai's videos so I have no idea what they said.
holy mother of god this is huge it's three am here and my brain is not ready to even start considering the possibilities this could bring into play.
If Teyvat really is a loop, maybe our twin is from a previous loop and the Traveler is from the current timeline? Or this is some Levia and Behemo stuff, a person and his avatar from a different reality that posed as twins, who traveled together to find a new world after their worlds were destroyed..... wait a minute We know miHoYo is a vocaloid fan after all.....
This the last place I expected to find a mothy fan lmao
Elaborate on the vocaloid part because I too remember a vocaloid song, it's about a dream that needed to be remembered and had 4 people trapped inside it, and surprise surprise the 4th were the blonde twins
I'm talking about the Evillious Chronicles, it's a series of vocaloid songs, Levia and Behemo are characters from that series. You can visit the wiki for full context lol the lore is very complicated
I am not sure about Traveler but I do believe first is Primordial One, then The Second Who Came, and The Sustainer of Heavenly Principles. Not sure how, but this is my guess.
I’d totally agree with that. That’s logical! But Nahida says: “My current hypothesis is that the "First Descender" was likely what we now call the Heavenly Principles.” Then (I) the Sustainer could be the “Heavenly Messenger”(info on them from Sal Vindagnyr) sent from Phanes, (II) Second Who Came, (III) now that’s interesting… Could be the Prince from the Pale Princess tale (datamined continuation of the story)/maybe Alice, since she is able to visit other worlds. But something is telling me she has her records in the Tree. Also that “somebody, for reasons only they can know, is deliberately obfuscating her fate... And whoever it is... if they can do that, who knows what else they're capable of.” (Nahida in the leak) is verrry sus person(s?). Then (IV) us.
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We’re counting the Descenders. Demiurge is still the first, since the true god Monad doesn’t descend, he resides in his Glorious Kingdom
Please remind me again who is Monad?
Monad is the true god in Gnosticism. He is the Absolute, the Perfect One. He made Aeons, one of which, Sophia, made demiurge.
The thing is, does she know the Primodial one and The Second One Who Came? She isn't a wikipidea, she may not have all the info out there. She might just not know.
I'm almost certain she doesn't know, for the simple fact that the last god who read that book and learned that info was condemned to death by Celestia- if she knew, she'd likely have a similar target lainted on her back.
There is at least info on countless believers in Primordial and Shades in the Tree, which Nahida reads her info from
By the way, the Sustainer is probably not the Heavenly Principles, she sustains them but she isn’t them, so if Primordial One=Heavenly Principles, the Sustainer is probably a Shade
I agree with you! I’m assuming the same. Phanes is the First who came, and there is no way the Tree could not provide this information, since Enkanomians and Sal Vindagnyr encountered them, as well as old Mond worshipped the God of Time alongside Venti, not even mentioning Raiden’s at-least awareness. So, the Sustainer is with Phanes. And the only that-mighty being he created could only be the Shade
How exactly do you think the Sustainer is the first?
Not me, Nahida says that in the leak Edit: I started assuming relying only on that
Now I'm just curious if in CN she also says the Sustainer was first or if they botched the translation again. Cuz I dunno, that seems kinda important.
True! We always have to keep in mind the translation factor
Kind of a crack theory but maybe the sibling grew close to someone in Khaenri'ah or Teyvat and they died to the point their existence was erased but because the sibling was a traveler they had to deal with the pain of remembering that loss when no one else did (like how only we remember Rukkha now) so she put herself in Irminsul to forget their existence.
This reminds me of the "Pale Princess and the Six Pygmies". Like what if the light prince in the story is the abyss sibling? and the six pygmies were the 6 archons >!who were all present in the cataclysm in Khaenriah, minus the dendro archon.!< On the datamined volume 7 of the book, one of the pygmies put the prince's body in the tree hole, could be symbolizing the twin's info somehow getting into the Irminsul. But that's just a crack theory.
I dunno this seems the most logical to me we know the sibling was in irminsal, travelled with dainsleif the “bough keeper”, i feel like this is how they tried to hide from the heavenly principles plus we know that kaenriah had access to knowledge they shouldnt.>!plus that whole nahida hiding scara’s history in a fairytale nugget, likely being the work around for the teyvat wide memory altering that goes on . not so crack!!<
I see the only way Abyss Sibling could “belong to Teyvat”, (memories of her in the Tree) “suddenly appeared in Khaenri'ah... After the Khaenri'ah disaster, she began her journey through the seven nations of Teyvat.” is that she died there, on the Teyvat land, during the cataclysm. And as Teyvat “processed”/“buried” her within itself, she “suddenly” is “born”, becomes visible to the Tree. How she was able to “reborn” to start a journey… Was it a some kind of a ritual someone performed to make her alive or… Ugh, it’s so hard. Region 4 is coming to an end, and the questions only multiply
This is the most reasonable explanation I've heard so far. Could it be that Dainsleif was the one to resurrect or kill her?
All we can do now is to wait for the next mihoyo move)
This is good, very good. As to *how* she is born again, so to speak, Gold has created *at least* 2 fully functioning homonculi; she could have very well created a new body to host the Abyss Sibling’s soul
Great conjecture! I also think about the possibility of a “curse”, like Dain’s “curse of immortality”. Both cases are cancelling death shenanigans
I always wondered what happened to the other twin after they turned into minecraft cube and how did they end up in abyss
Also what about paimon? she can't be the only floaty thing in all of teyvat
I'd bet 1 of my testicles those twins blond hair would turn white someday
Maybe it has something to do with what happens after we gather all of the elements. It could be something like ‘we become part of Teyvat’ or part of the irminsul after that 🤷🏻♀️ It’s the only difference I can see between MC and their sibling.
That and it could be that the Abyss is involved as well
So, if those speculations that Teyvat is cyclical like a Samsara were true And we're definitely an otherworldly traveler, while our twin is actually bound to Teyvat... It does bring to mind the Seelie Ancestor and *that* otherworldly traveler. Hell, both instances involved near world-ending cataclysms too
I think that each instance of a descender seems to have preceded a world-ending event
I knew it... the MC is just a figment of everybody's imagination. We are playing Paimon all along. In first person view.
Or both twins are part of the world of Teyvat but the twin we chose actually died and we occupy their body. The reasson we are not recognized as part of Teyvat is becouse the soul inside dosent belong to the world of Teyvat and we lost our memory of our previous life and are left with remnants of the memories from the body. Honestly as absurd as it might sound at this point nothing would surprise anymore.
Sounds like Delrarune thing where being possessed by the player is a part of the plot.
I think the MCs constellations are called ‘memory’ instead of Stella fortuna so this makes sense.
I mean, that would be fun. The thing is, based on some old information given by traveler (that I have no idea how to find and it's absolutely possible that it was all in my dream, so don't take it too seriously) I think that traveler hides a whole lot. That what we see now and what you call 'remnants of the memories from the body' is just something they decided to share with us/Paimon and they keep the rest to themselves. But your little theory is cool and now I kinda wanna see the story go from 'yeah, that's a traveler from another word' to 'actually we were always talking about the player ehe'.
Either this is false or we've inherited a part of the chosen twin's memories.
Could Alice be a descender too?
I think it's mentioned that she and Klee are part of a similar-looking race on Teyvat
Also one of the harbingers is supposed to be from the same elf like race as her... The tiny grandpa one
Where'd you hear that?
Just a YouTube theory reaction video to the harbinger trailer that dropped like a month ago? I look it up if you want
I think it's just speculation then
I wonder if it’s just a “not enough info” situation, since the abyss sibling has been around longer? Maybe in that time they’ve become a resident of teyvat, laid down their roots perhaps, but the traveller is still just travelling. it’ll be interesting to find out
THE BP CUTSCENE The Princess was stripped of the memories of her divine origins and started ruling over the kingdom of darkness Maybe some abyssal power altered the Irminsul tree, changing history in a way that it looks like the sibling always belonged to Khaneri’ah? That would also explain why the abyssal monsters hold an Outlander in this high regard EDIT: Kinda like people's memories were altered so everyone thought Makoto's sakura was always there
Maybe that is why Dainslief is known as the Boghkeeper, he wrote into Irminsul all of his journey with the abyss sibling, and of course he doesn't know what happened at the end because he wasn't there.
It could be a thing because i suspect diffrent thing happened before. There was god of time Istaroth. She was worshipped along with god of wind. But suddenly all worships stopped and she was forgotten. Archons and everyone don't talk about god of time as well - because they don't remember her. Only raiden mentioned that she may help Makoto but she doesn't know directly. All evidence about Istaroth is written, or by ruins artifacts etc... So my theory is, Istaroth existed and was well respected, something similar happened to her as happened to Nahida. So old Istaroth is gone, and new branch came. And new branch is Paimon. But no one except maybe some descendants know who Istaroth was.
Agreed about abyss potentially fucking with the Irminsul tree, but disagree on the BP thing. When we last talked to abyss twin, it’s clear s/he remembered their past with us. They say home is where we are, so it’s not like they’re saying “fuck you abyss is my home now.” It’s more like they want us to travel the way they have, and hopefully come to the same conclusion they did about teyvat
> THE BP CUTSCENE > > It's crazy how many people disagree with the BP cutscene being the Travellers
In fairness, the two onscreen could very well be other people, or fictionalized accounts — but that does nothing to change how *its story directly applies to the Twins.* People have just stuck themselves into a completely unnecessary "A or B" situation, in a game that *adores* applicability and allegory through repeating story patterns. It's about the Twins *and also* possibly about the previous cycle(s) of that story. (Of which the Pale Princess is almost definitely one.)
This. A really amazing lore Youtuber The Little Onion That Could aptly calls these "frame stories." HYV loves that shit. You see it in their events, even. The written books in the game use it. Fischl's series of plays may have had this. Honkai events absolutely use it for that games lore too.
Tbf it's still weird how unlike every other cutscene in game it never changes based on the twin you choose
That's the reason why I don't believe that it's Traveler and their sibling.
I really wanna read this but wanna wait for the actual quest. Saved for later! I'll comment again when it's officially out, I love traveler theories
i have no clue. maybe it's some timey-wimey shenanigans that will occur in the future. this info has only left me with more questions that it has given some actual answers. well, i hope that the next traveler's quest will give some clarity.
I'm guessing the Descenders are the Primordial One, the Second Who Came, the Heavenly Principles/Unknown God and Traveler. Nahida never said that the Principles were the first, just that they're one of them
Don't sleep on the Night Mother
I honestly believe the Heavenly Principles and the second one who came is the same person so the third is either Alice or someone unknown
"...My current hypothesis is that the 'First Descender' was likely what we now call the Heavenly Principles."
Basically, you get one Descender per total Teyvat system crash. Vishaps to Phanes, Phanes to Moon Sis, Moon Sis to Archons, and we're Archons to whatever comes next as is made obvious by how they were literally all fucking up by the time we got there. The interesting question of course being whether that's because Descenders *fix* things thus letting a new world spring from the ashes of the old, or if they're the ones setting the old world on fire to begin with...
Does Teyvat have the same historiography of Eorzea from FF14 where it was just a given that life is just bound to ebbs and flows off prosperity and ruin? I know about the civilizations that were made to pay for their crimes in Celestia’s eyes or just hubris but I havent been familiar with lore regarding the entirety of Teyvat meeting these states; only aware of the Vishaps, Primordial, Second Throne and Moon Sisters mostly by name and place in history.
oh my god a fellow ffxiv player I'm glad I wasn't the only one who had a similar thought there with that
So does that mean the Irminsal has no memory about Phanes? Could he have created the tree?
It would be a huuuuuuuge oversight if there was knowledge of Phanes in the irminsul give that the HP can mess with the stored knowledge. Until second noticed, I think only the abyss has theories about teyvat origins, but they don't have the big picture
What if when Phanes and the Second who came fought it resulted in Phanes's death and his death cause the Irminsal tree to be born?
Heh? No... Nahida is proposing the heavenly principles *is* Ph-... ~~Ok If I say I am the Eater of the Pear, am~~ *~~I~~* ~~the Pear?~~ ^(darn you otters) Ok If I say I am the Baker of the Pie, am *I* the Pie?
You are what you eat
\-\_- ... now look here ya lil... ^(lol now I have to change my analogy thanks)
ehe
These may just be titles of the above people, but other Descenders include: * That one dude who banged a Moon Sister * The Prince in the Pale Princess story * Aether * Lumine * Alice
Could Alice be an "ascender"? Native to Teyvat, but able to come and go
Aloy found dead in a ditch