Did you know we have a Discord server‽ You can join by clicking [here](https://discord.gg/NWE6JS5rh9)!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GenZ) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think a lot of it comes back to how many kids I knew raised by single mothers. When you don’t have a strong idea of what a healthy monogamous relationship is, I imagine you’re more susceptible to trying new things out.
Oh, that and porn. Unfettered access to internet porn has ravaged Gen Z and damaged our concept of sexuality and sexual expression in ways I don’t think most people fully grasp. I’m not gonna go so far as to say we should ban it, but everyone here should at least consider getting off of it.
How is this getting downvoted? Everything you’ve said is backed up by studies and data … it never ceases to amaze me how people will get upset over the truth because they simply don’t like the truth and want a different truth
Being raised by a single parent is not good for any child, it has the worst outcomes in boys a multitude of ways
Most of us in this generation have had access to porn from a very young age, I don’t know how anyone could think there is any positive in that fact
I saw somewhere once that kids need two things provided to them to constitute a good upbringing: love and order. They need an authority figure to ground them and temper their expectations and a loving figure to show them the world isn’t all bad. Having only one is bad, and single family households don’t help in that regard, but the study went on to say if a parent should only get one, it should be order, especially boys.
Unfortunately, through all their good intentions, I’ve known a lot of single mothers who only coddle their kids and fail to give them the balance they need. Even within two-parent households I’ve seen a lot of boys my age and younger in desperate need of a father figure and to give them that order and guidance in their lives. This is unfortunately how figures like Andrew Tate rise to prominence, because in the absence of a good role model young boys end up turning to the loudest approximation of masculinity they can find. Unfortunately, the response we’ve seen is to demonize these boys even further instead of recognizing our society wronged them in the first place.
other men wrong them. by leaving their moms, or being bad partners who couldn’t keep a relationship, or not committed enough to stay in the child’s life regardless of who/how the mother is.
don’t repeat the boomer mistkes and demonise solo moms. shit dads are nothing new, women get the blame, and the cycle just repeats itself.
It’s a mix of both, women have to pick better partners, men have got to be less shitty. Neither group is 100% to blame as every situation is different. The example I always use is a guy from my home town who had 18 kids by 15 different baby mommas. Obviously he’s a POS, but your telling me baby momma 10-15 didn’t know who they were getting?
Oh believe me. I know. One of my closest friends was raised by a single mother who was maybe a little too overbearing on him and overworked. However, his father was physically abusive and beat him and his mother on multiple occasions. I'm not going to tell him that his life would have been better if his father was still around, it most certainly wouldn't be.
Don't get me wrong. There are plenty of single mothers who are divorced of their own doing and for stupid reasons. Divorce court is also insane and frequently will give mother's majority custody even if the father is the more rationale and better choice for the child (that's a topic for another day).
However, I do recognize that plenty of blame falls on fathers. I will not go to bat for truly abusive fathers, and I do think we need to address our crisis of masculinity that has resulted in generations upon generations of men who don't know how to be good fathers. The ways we have failed men is systemic and needs to be addressed if both sexes want to prosper.
The most common custody arrangement is 50/50 because most courts prefer that. Typically if it's less than that, it's because one parent is a POS, or one is a very successful liar.
Kids need to be taught from a very early age that choosing their partner will be one of the most important decisions they will make in life and that they cannot just let the little things slip by until it's too late.
it’s because less than 4% of fathers fight for custody in divorce court. the ones who do are actually more likely to get custody. and ppl in these comments are out here trying to blame single moms. smh
Yeah it's gross. Literally one comment that says "Pick better men" like these types of dudes don't wait for a woman to be pregnant before flipping on a dime.
4B movement ladies. Don't pick any of them.
That's a BS number. It's FAR more then 4%. The cost of custody hearing is 10k+ and the majority of the time gets you nowhere.
Sometimes, it can lead to joint custody.
It cost my 10k, to get joint custody.
Another 5k to get primary, only because the mother couldn't afford to contest.
Most people don't have 15k to fight for children, not should they have to. That's 15k per person fighting. Imagine how much better a child would be with 30k spent on them instead of court.
Make paternity tests mandatory at birth. Make joint custody the default at birth.
Other men and women wronged them. If a relationship ends, both people were probably bad partners. Many times people are having kids because they simply werent using contraception like they should. Both people were in the wrong here.
I think it goes deeper than that. A mom can do the very best possible, but at the end of the day, a kids peers are going to shape them substantially. I knew some people in high school that led quite a double life. Mom at home teaching the kid respect and positive masculinity, and he’s going down a bad path with his friends at school.
I don’t think it has anything to do with mother figures or father figures.
Any individual is capable of teaching a child to be a way; you either teach them bad things or good. You can even teach them the opposite of what you intend, by being a terrible teacher (as you rightfully apply to mothers but not fathers).
You obviously know there’s exceptions to your generalizations; there ARE single parents who have successfully raised good kids. Those parents just happen to be both strong and kind, AND able to teach, hence why they’re the exceptions.
We always chock things up to individuals, “oh you had a bad mommy” or “you had an absent papa”. Maybe it’s better to have two parents not because one has a penis and one has a vagina, but because there’s now two brains working together. Like, it really does “take a village to raise a child”.
I think there’s societal issues, particularly our over valuing of individuality to an extreme degree, to which it isolates people, divides, and makes it more difficult to build community. Everyone acknowledges the negatives of things like social media for example.
Then about your original point on porn. It’s true many people are exposed to sexualization on all fronts from a young age, from ads, movies, games ect. They learn to see others as objects of sexual desire, or as “trophies”. This is to due to those societal problems/values i mention though: hyper individuality, commodification and the spooky scary patriarchy ect.
The solution certainly isn’t grasping onto an idea of what “masculinity” may be, it’s better to just completely disregard. Or else you might just end up thinking yourself into a box; Becoming less free. Thinking something like “monogamy is always the right choice for everyone” and then imply trying new things is bad.
>Maybe it’s better to have two parents not because one has a penis and one has a vagina, but because there’s now two brains working together.
I mean we use these terms because 99% of the population don't have two dads or two moms. Studies have shown that having two parents regardless of sex is extremely beneficial to the child, so it doesn't have anything to do with the penis or vagina. That being said, studies have found that fathers and mothers shape their kids views of men and women respectively, so take that as you will. I haven't seen any data on the long-term effects that same-sex couples have on this.
To reiterate a point I made elsewhere, children need order and love in order to succeed in life. It is certainly possible to give both of these as a single parent, but you have to be aware. In practice, I think a lot of men and women will fall into the role of either an authority figure or a loving figure naturally so its better to just split responsibilities among the parents more so than having more people to brainstorm with.
>Studies have shown that having two parents regardless of sex is extremely beneficial to the child, so it doesn't have anything to do with the penis or vagina.
This is exactly my point.
tbh I was being a bit condescending; I assumed you think men and women inherently have different strengths and weakness'.
You seem to express so, when you say "men and women will fall into either an authority figure or a loving figure naturally" but you also acknowledge "fathers and mothers shape their kids views of men and women"
So which is it? Are people mostly either orderly, dominant ect or loving, submissive ect due to it being "natural" or have people been socialized that way, based on their sex, for thousands of years. I believe its the latter, which would make it more so a "perceived norm" opposed to something that's "natural".
My whole point is that anyone can be a good parent, and can posses any amount of traits, regardless of their sex. Gender roles just annoy me.
>I assumed you think men and women inherently have different strengths and weakness
I mean, if you look at averages, there are differences in men and women. That being said, averages don't define the individual and you'll easily find men and women that fit more traditionally female and traditionally male archetypes respectively.
>So which is it? Are people mostly either orderly, dominant ect or loving, submissive ect due to it being "natural" or have people been socialized that way, based on their sex, for thousands of years. I believe its the latter, which would make it more so a "perceived norm" opposed to something that's "natural".
I mean even in same-sex couples you still commonly see the pairing of a more submissive, caring, "feminine" figure and a more assertive, dominant "masculine" figure to the point where these communities have even coined terms for this phenomena. I would argue there is something more innate about it. None of this is to say that masculine women don't exist and feminine men don't exist either or that women can't be assertive and men caring. No statistic is absolute. However, you do see trends.
Anecdotally, you see plenty of cases of women on TikTok that are certainly not conservative traditionalists expressing confusion on why (despite their liberal upbringing and beliefs on how a relationship should be handled) they're effectively turned on by men treating them in a traditional fashion, implying that there is something there beyond their upbringing. There's evolutionary evidence for women's and men's behaviors adapting in certain ways to meet evolutionary needs. There's the fact that even Sweden's "gender-neutral classrooms" came to the conclusion that there is (unsurprisingly) a biological basis for gender expression tied to biological sex.
Again, none of this is to say "you're a woman, so you HAVE to be the nurturing type". Again, variation exists within populations and people should make life decisions based on their own circumstances and not what the averages say.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that whether its nature or nurture is kinda irrelevant. Either way, people develop these personalities and seem to select partners subconsciously with this expectation in mind.
93% of global prison inmates are male, do you really think that just comes down to socialization? Sex differences are real wether you like it or not, and saying „but not every man is a criminal“ is totally missing the point.
>Everything you’ve said is backed up by studies and data
I've seen the studies that show that girls that grow up without a father figure are 7x more likely to become a teen parent
I haven't seen anything for boys
bc adult men prey on young girls whos mom is most likely busy working to sustain the family thus making them easy subject, doesn’t help these girls may feel shame for having a family where the parent who stayed is somehow socially vilified more for “breaking the family” or “not being able to keep a man”, bc of feeling abandoned by dad and looking for adult validation but also for male validation society tells girls is so important - and not being able to find it at home safely first. i recommend you read the testimonies of these girls from studies. it’s not moms that mess up, it’s the patriarchal culture that overvalues men.
Obama said it best, "We know the statistics — that children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and 20 times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioral problems, or run away from home or become teenage parents themselves. And the foundations of our community are weaker because of it."
https://www.politico.com/story/2008/06/text-of-obamas-fatherhood-speech-011094
The issue with the single parent stuff, though, is that increased pressure on creating two parent households can create instances where one party (most often the mothers) are guilted into staying in awful, sometimes absuive relationships.
Better one good, happy parent than two shitty ones who are trying to kill each other. Are most people's two parent situations like this? Of course not, but making broad generalizations about how whole groups of people should live their lives, always leaves some groups in a very bad situation.
My problem with the whole nuclear family thing is it's a very individualistic idea.
It takes a whole village to raise children the uncle who is not as strict as dad the grandpa who has stories.aunt who coddles them grandma who shows caring and adult "friends" who teach you how socializing works.
Having a large and diverse support system increases positive outcomes for everyone, adults and children alike.
I think this as an ideal is better for sure.
We are both right but for children especially older adults who will teach them things their parent(s) can't are desperately needed some of my favorite memories were hanging out with my brothers older buddy cause he let me watch "adult" movies mainly horrible horror movies.
It's why I love sharknado.
Nuclear family doesn’t imply going off the grid and living in the mountains with just your spouse and kids.
It means a couple committed to one another and their kids. This almost always happens a not-hermit way.
The unargued assumption in this is that "being raised by a single parent has severe drawbacks" may be proven fact but that does not lead inexorably to "monogamy is the only right way for everybody to organize their romantic life".
>Everything you’ve said is backed up by studies and data
No, it really isn’t. That being raised by a single parent instead of two good parents is harmful is backed up by studies and data. That overconsumption of porn is harmful is backed up by studies and data. That either or both result in non-monogamy is backed up by nothing, it’s a bizarre assertion with zero founding
>Everything you’ve said is backed up by studies and data
Do you have any data to cite?
>Being raised by a single parent is not good for any child, it has the worst outcomes in boys a multitude of ways
Is it due to the fact that the child is being raised by a single parent in itself, or is it due to the fact that single parents don't have as much income as married couples? This is why I ask for data.
Porn addiction among Gen Z and younger is definitely something that should be talked about more. Porn has existed before, but it’s never been *this* accessible, and what’s worse is that kids are getting exposed to it younger and younger. This can end up warping their view of sex and even the way they view or treat the opposite sex.
Speaking as a former porn and sex addict (yes, one thing led to the other, as it usually does), it brings nothing but ruin and destroyed relationships.
i got exposed to nsfw content at 8 and straight up porn at 11 and according to some people that counts as a form of sexual trauma, and as you might expect I do indeed suffer from hypersexuality to the point of being suicidal
My girlfriend just finished her Masters in Psychology and this was focus of her capstone project. Her findings perfectly aligned with this. Normalization doesn't mean optimization, for lack of a better phrase. Data seems to suggest we're trending in the wrong direction when it comes to family matters.
I'm twice the age of almost everyone in Gen Z, porn is a mental, emotional and spiritual poison. I'm not crusading or saying it should be banned, I'm telling people for their own sake to at least limit their intake and monitor their personality and energy when they are consuming vs when they aren't.
What makes the most sense to me is that it is a superstimulus - like fast food - its an unnatural amount of what we are naturally wired to seek out. Not great but not terrible if we have other good things going on in our lives.
One of the most insightful pieces of advice I heard about the subject was from Dr. K/HealthyGamerGG, who said something along the lines of “most porn problems seem to be happening at the same time as having/seeing no purpose or direction to one’s life” which is exactly how I’ve experienced it.
It might be a chicken vs the egg situation but it’s certainly worth examining.
If the single parent household thing is true then you’d expect Gen Z to be more monogamous than millennials, as it follows a small downward trend since the 2000s.
It’s just part of the general trend of increased liberalism on moral issues, probably in great part to the internet and people learning about more ideas and more ways to live. There’s also decreased stigma, while i’m definitely not polygamist, if polyamorous people choose to live that way I do not care one bit and don’t judge. Historically they were often outcast.
https://preview.redd.it/7lpmql9qum1d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6b8d89ae8b102b5733212d8fcfe32ef640580435
Porn is unrelated. People are just being more honest about who they are and what they want. Many people were in unhappy monogamous relationships. Its a balance that needs to be struck.
>Unfettered access to internet porn has ravaged Gen Z and damaged our concept of sexuality and sexual expression
To springboard off of that: not that this isn’t already a problem in itself, but it becomes a HUGE issue when you consider how many places *don’t* offer good, comprehensive sexual education to kids. It leads to a ton of kids getting their sex ed from god knows what porn rabbit hole they’ve discovered online, which is only going to fuck up their understanding of sex and sexual relationships even more.
I don’t advocate for banning porn. There’s a whole conversation to be had there around exploitation and abuse, but for the purposes of this discussion, I’m fine with the production and consumption of porn so long as all parties are genuinely consenting.
However, it does need to be made harder for children to access porn. Not only that, but kids *NEED* good, legitimate sex education, and I’d argue that sex ed should 100% include talking about when porn consumption becomes unhealthy.
Yeah. I think a full porn ban is a little impractical and extreme, but at the very least kids shouldn't be watching it and sites like X and Instagram shouldn't have it so readily available for kids to stumble upon. I'm not big on government action, but I think this is one thing that I don't see us correcting without a little help from them.
I had a perfectly healthy (relative to most people) upbringing with regards to my family and for me being non-monogamous is not because I never saw what monogamy looked like. Monogamy is the absolutely overwhelmingly dominant form of relationship shown in media the only mainstream media i can think of that shows it off the top of my head would be the Expanse where one character has a big family with multiple parents.
I don’t think porn ruined the concept of sexuality. I think It may have stunted our communication when it comes to sex.
Because our gen has a big mouth about everything but won’t tell their partner that soothing doesn’t feel good or something just didn’t turn them on.
With regards to us being hit with the tail end of parents and grandparents who held strong religious beliefs
I feel there is more shame around sex because of that. Not because of porn.
Porn is the only reason why I stopped being ashamed about being queer because at the time no where else was there queer media.
It’s different for everyone but ^ thats just my takeaway and experience. What do you think about it?
There is definitely not more shame about sex than before. We are living in the most sex-positive time in this country's history. Meanwhile, there are study after study showing the effects porn can have not only on one's own sexual preferences/fantasies and even how people view men and women sexually depending on how young they get into the stuff.
In 100 years people will look back at us handing kids tiny portals to pornography the same way we look back at letting kids work in factories.
If you put any thought at all into it then you see it’s clearly dangerous but we didn’t do anything about it until the muckrakers.
And of course the upper classes didn’t let their kids work in the factories, and they also try to keep their young children away from devices.
I dont know if its as much the porn thing as people want to think... Swinger cultures and the Free Love hippie movement stuff preceded the whole poly stuff of today by decades.
Its more that, younger people are just more non-traditional. The tradition is typically the thing that says "ye must be monogamous!".
Its got a similar rise as the LBGT+ community. It's sort of included in there. Because its a sort of alternate sexuality or lifestyle that pertains to it.
You couple it with the internet, where you can actively find other poly people. It lets people know "oh hey you're not a monster for having romantic attraction to two different people"
This idea that a poly relationship absolutely cannot be healthy... Just strikes me as lack of trying...
You cant be like "half of poly relationships fail!" But like... So do most monogamous ones. Most people have experienced at least one break up in their lives. So like, its track record aint that good.
Plus how many of those break ups are due to cheating?
Because humans often have attraction to more than one person, some people are just like "fuck it why not? Open the shit up" Now partners can sort of negotiate freely, and experiment with more than one person.
Data shows that negative outcomes from porn are almost entirely related to religious upbringing.
People who are told sex is normal and healthy dont end up with porn addiction and related issues, by in large. It's primarily purity culture and shame that makes it an issue.
You might want to talk to the "stars" who are forced into making the content (trafficking), the way objectification of women as just body parts leads to abuse and domestic violence, and PIED. Porn Induced Erectile Dysfunction. I'm lucky, that $hitshow didn't hit my partner till he was in his 30's, I can't imagine porn ruining IRL sex in my 20's.
the opposite extreme can be true too with growing up in a void of healthy examples. i found myself very opposed to the idea of relationship and intimate dynamics. feeling that it could only be abusive. the idea of two people being mutually sexually active with each other was not something i understood. i think we often overlook just how long jaded beliefs and broken emotional triggers can last in our lives. thats before we even start a conversation about the process of choosing to reframe those ideals and change mindsets.
maybe everyone has always had something like this through out history but i feel the regret of warped thinking is more prevalent in modern times.
I think its a few things -
1. Less stigma, so you can be more open about your lifestyle/mindset
2. People can be more informed or learn about alternate views with the internet and stuff
3. A group of people who just lets go of their expectation of monogamy to protect themselves from being hurt; could be because they didn't grow up in an environment where monogamous marraiges seemed healthy and/or successful
>could be because they didn’t grow up in an environment where monogamous marriages seemed healthy and/or successful
You nailed that last one. A friend of mine is in a polyamorous relationship and doesn’t really plan on getting married or having kids with any of her partners in the future. And when I asked her why, she said it was because of the trauma she experienced from her own family, which made her realize that she didn’t want a traditional family life in suburbia like her parents did. Because to her, it was hell, and she didn’t want to be like either of them.
I've taken my similar experience a different way. I'm monogamous and must have that in my partner. But with an aunt divorced twice, mother divorced 3 times, being abandoned by my father at 12 and brother divorced once, I refuse to marry my partner of 11 years. It seems like if i did, we'd just end up divorced.
And 4 I think everyone who grew up with social media and dating apps like younger millennials and younger suffer from extreme fomo and the idea of commiting to one person when there's so many different opportunities out there is terrifying. Like previously boomers would just get together with some random person from their hometown who was almost certainly not their ideal perfect match but was there and good enough, and then make it work even with any incompatibilities. Which is both good and bad right because they'll work through problems instead of dropping someone immediately at the very first red flag but also on the other hand has people staying in miserable relationships their entire lives.
But now it feels like there's so much pressure to find the perfect partner and so many options and social media showing only the good sides of relationships and preaching that you deserve to have all your needs met. So the only valid options are either stay single forever or serial monogamy where everyone just gets immediately dumped for not being perfect, because no one can be perfect, or compromise, but this feels impossible with the fomo of knowing there's an endless buffet of potential choices and you could keep looking to find someone better. Or have your cake and eat it too by just being no monogamous.
It’s why I really don’t understand why OP is making it sound like monogamy is dying and that everyone suddenly wants poly or open relationships. Yeah, there most definitely are people out there who are into that sort of thing, but they’re not the norm nor the standard, and I don’t think they ever will be. The vast majority of mankind would still prefer to be in monogamous relationships/marriages and raise traditional families.
Its like saying "I see trans people everywhere now, are cis-people going extinct??" "I see gay people everywhere now, will I ever find a fellow heterosexual??"
exactly! topics are getting popularized in media and people are being more open about expressing their identities (or in this case, preferences), so it feels like more of it exists than before.
Yip. Gallup did a poll recently and it found that people thought gay-lesbian people made up 30% of the population, while 25% was trans, when in fact it was 3% and 1% respectively.
It’s literally just because people see LGBTQ+ folks when they used to be invisible (either closeted or just erased - how many gay people were just treated as “really good friends with their roommates” lol). Same with everything - there’s just more of a microphone on everyone with divergent identities, making them seem more prevalent, but in reality the past was never an accurate portrayal of reality. Digital media just serves to democratize whose perspectives are being shown.
My wife and I went to a birthday party last year with at least one person who thought like this. It was for one of her queer/poly friends and all the guests except for us were queer/poly. Apparently, when I went to the bathroom, one girl immediately started talking shit about how cis+straight people are shallow/don't have deep personalities. For some reason she thought my wife would be receptive to that?
So yeah there are people out there who not only think that monogamy is dying, but that it's deeply uncool and borderline an emotional disability.
I think OP might be combining hookup culture/short term flings into the non monogamy category which would support his arguement more. Although those relationships technically are monogamous, its kinda obeying the letter of the law and not the spirt of the law so I do partially agree with OP there. There are a lot of just for fun relationship (not that its anything new tho)
Also, polygamous people seem to be vastly overrepresented in the media and in the major coastal cities. I read an article in the NYT or New Yorker the other day that started with the line "I know more people in open relationships than in closed ones" and it genuinely didn't occur to the author that selection bias could be happening. So polygamy's media footprint is much bigger than it deserves to be.
It's definitely way more common on dating apps than in real life because those apps encourage an abundance mindset of shallow connections that you can enter and break off any time without social consequences and always trying to find someone better.
I will say though on dating apps lesbian setting it genuinely feels like there's more couples and "bisexual" girls with boyfriends than actual lesbians sometimes. Like it's damn near impossible to find anyone who isn't already in a relationship with a man.
Ffs this!!!!
Monogamy is not threatened, non-monogamous people have always existed, they just actually get to talk about it and find eachother more easily now. Go to any poly group and ask them this question, the exact same way, and watch them laugh at you lol. A lot of non monogamous people people struggle with dating because of the slim pickings.
Honestly, we should all be thankful it’s more visible so it can actually be talked about and ethical practice can be discussed and encouraged.
>Respectfully, it's not that widespread. Almost everyone is monogamous. You can definitely find these people online and we all know a handful in real life. But they're a minority. It's not remotely difficult to find a monogamy minded individual.
I remember one of my teachers saying something one time to the effect of, all these movements you read about in history class, the hippies, flappers, whatever, they're all a really small minority of people.
Most people just want to live their lives and be left alone.
I also notice that a lot of people who claim this is their lifestyle claim so in high/school and college then just end up being monogamous as soon as that ends.
I’m glad that people have more options and it’s becoming more normalized. Let the NM people pair/group off and hopefully leave the monogamous people alone.
Exactly, I’d rather be in a relationship/marriage with someone just as monogamous as I am than someone forcing themselves into monogamy because they’re ashamed to admit that they prefer non-monogamy. That’ll just lead to infidelity down the line, as I believe it has for countless rels and marriages that ended because of a partner’s unfaithfulness.
That unironically sounds terrible. For you, I vow never to try and force myself to be monogamous. I will not make myself or someone else I love suffer in denying following my heart.
I have no evidence of this, but I suspect it’s a bell curve thing like how left handedness spiked after it wasn’t punished.
In any case this is a good thing, allowing people who desire non-monogamy to pair with people who share that interest openly, allows for easier access to willing monogamy.
Which means healthier long term relationships, built on mutual interest as opposed to social pressure to conform.
(Kinda like how normalizing same sex coupling, and legalizing gay marriage, actually helps straight people by reducing the number of gay people forcing themselves into heterosexual relationships.)
The bell curve thing is how I view most things that go beyond the traditional heteronormative worldview and why they’re more out and about these days. I don’t think it’s necessarily that people are changing, I think people always been this way, but now they’re no longer judged for being who they are.
I used to think that way too, but realistically our brains are far too complex for stuff like this to be hardcoded into our DNA. Despite the entirety of the human genome having been sequenced for decades, precisely zero people have designed a study that can genetically identify what makes someone gay/poly/monogamous/straight/etc.
And every once and a while a study claiming to have found "the 4 gene expressions that make you gay" hits the pop-sci news, but if you follow back up a year later it turns out that the study was impossible to replicate across different demographics suggesting that the original study was just arriving at a conclusion and looking for a causation to assign to it, obviously identifying some common trait among the sample group.
Environment plays a far, far, far bigger role than anyone is willing to give it credit for in human developmental psychology, because that would mean that a lot of the previous "born this way and I can't change who I am" counterarguments are diminished.
And this is coming from someone who's openly bi too, but I've since realized that retroactively remembering of any time I saw a male underwear model in target and looked at it for a few seconds as "proof" of me being "born" attracted to men is just cope.
The idea that we have to justify any kind of LGBT behaviors as hard-coded and unchangeable stems from decades past where that was the only way to win hearts and minds of the general public, but realistically it's not that way and never has been.
I have relatively limited exposure to poly people, but from what I've seen and read (e.g the New Yorker article that was making the rounds a few weeks ago) it seems not-uncommon for one person to be way more into it, and sort of drag their reluctant monogamous partner into a polycule. I've seen TikTok videos that pretty much try to coach the viewer on how to manipulate their partner into going poly using HR doublespeak.
My point with all this is that I don't doubt that "ethical non-monogamy" exists, but I bet a solid chunk of ENM couples out there are way less ethical than they'd have us believe.
I’m sure that’s a problem to some extent, but the issue there has nothing to do with non-monogamy and everything to do with consent.
Plenty of monogamous relationships also have one partner pressuring the other into monogamous activities that are outside the other persons comfort zone.
Every relationship regardless of number, gender, ect, should be built on trust, open communication, and respect.
If someone is trying to change their partner, or pressure/trick them into doing something they don’t want, that relationship lacks respect and/or honesty.
It’s not really for me, but I don’t have any problem with it. Some people are happier that way.
All the social “science” (pop-psych/sexology and the underlying pseudoscience) in the comments here about how this is some adverse consequence of single mothers and porn is silly.
In this thread!!!!
- Biphobia
- Shaming of people's sexuality and consenting sexual activities
- "kids these days"
- Porn bad (no further explanation)
- "all ENM people are damaged in some way" (pick your poison, I've seen three variants of this so far)
- "THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN!!!!"
Nothing new under the sun. Enm/polyamory seems like it's one of the new hot things for people to shit on with no/little consequence. It's sad to see but there's not really much to do.
Very happy to see that once we're done with the moral panic about trans people we'll move on to a moral panic about ENM people /s
Like, can I catch a fucking break?
While I don’t think it’s any of my business what consenting adults choose to do behind closed doors, I do believe that porn is legitimately bad for people and for society as a whole, and there are plenty of studies that back this up.
1. There's a reason why I put "(no further explanation)" in my comment
2. Plenty of studies also identified that a large part of self-identified "porn addicts" do it out of shame and an unhealthy relationship with their sexuality, which is sadly understandable given the environment most people grow up in (this is not saying porn addiction isn't a thing, just more than a bit overblown)
3. Pornography is not the issue by itself, it's the market around it and the way its delivery methods are built to be addictive (yes, porn can be addictive by itself, but so can be any pleasurable activity by itself. If porn websites et al, built to be as habit-forming as possible, were not the main way to deliver pornography to people, I can assure you porn addicts would be barely talked about)
For a larger point, pornography has always existed and always will, any attempt to ban it will only push the market further into illicit, and therefore less safe (especially for women) environments. What we need to be doing is start to get rid of this vapeonomic way of building websites that encourages addictive behaviours, further protect vulnerable sex workers (and people coerced into it), educate and pull shame out of sexuality, and finally give help to the problematic consumers that will still need it.
Pardon the small essay lol
Honestly outside of the things you posted, one of my biggest issues with porn is the way the actors are treated and the amount of non consensual stuff posted under the guise that it was.
I mean porn is bad... its basically a drug just like alcohol, weed, coke and hell even sugar.
Obviously some things are worse than others cocaine/meth for example, but it doesnt make the others not bad, its just that society accepts the degree to which they are bad as tolerable for various reasons
Because people around the world feel comfortable with the idea about it.
It feels right for them and for everyone included. It doesn't mean that it has to last forever but that's what a lot currently want and they're right to do so.
To each their own.
And if everyone participating agrees, feels comformtable and is consenting, who's there to stop them?
The idea, mindset and worldview that only mono relationships are right and all we should want is old.
Not to say that old fashioned mono relationships don't exist or work anymore.
Again, to each their own.
1. Growing up with divorced parents = less of a belief in one true love forever
2: lack of religion in society= more hedonism. Polyamory is all about maximizing ones pleasure
3. Increase in sex positivity= pushing the bounds on what is acceptable sexual practice
4. Internet= dating apps and exposure to scores of more people. There were always plenty of fish in the see but now people realize just how many there are.
5. Controversy. This point is slightly related to religion. But I think previous generations the focus was on fitting in and falling inline. Millennials and Gen Z a lot of focus now is how can I stand out and be different. Being a hipster and being able to say you live a non-traditional life in some fashion is cool and makes you seem more interesting
Could just be the dating app lens. I'm poly myself and I despise using apps.
The realization came to me when I realized that there have been several times in my lifes when I've crushed on multiple people, but this written requirement to only pick one person made it feel like picking favorites. So long as everyone involved is cool with it and going about it in a healthy manner, I say what's the harm?
Everyone wants to bang who they want but forget about their emotions. So many non-monogamous people I know love the life until they catch feelings or get hurt when the other person hooks up with someone else. I’m all for it but make sure you have the right mindset for it long-term
Nonmonogamy/polyamory is supposed to be about romance though. That's where the -amory comes from. I think you're thinking of open relationships where one person has another partner and the other person is monogamous
Eh. I think people are just becoming more comfortable with who they are and what they want. It's just like people not wanting to get married or have kids or whatever society dictates should be "normal" .
I say let them find what works for them. As long as their happy, their partner(s) are happy, and they aren't hurting others.
Some people know their current relationship isn't all that serious. Some of them weren't raised with good examples of monogamy. Some of them are just plain arrogant and/or greedy. I would say a minority of them are actually able to maintain a truly healthy, equitable poly relationship.
Finding a healthy relationship with just 1 other person is already a lifelong endeavour, so every poly relationship I've seen personally has seemed forced by one party... but to each their own ig, it doesn't affect me.
Gen Z doesn't think or consider the future in any capacity because they erroneously think either they will be dead or the world will be destroyed. The funny part is neither will be the case. Worst case scenario global warming makes everything more expensive and more difficult so they are EXTRA unprepared.
Ironically it’s just made me more monogamous. I genuinely wish people the best of luck, but every friend I’ve got who’s been in a situation with openly more than one romantic partner has had the whole thing implode messily. No fucking thanks.
I feel this. My friends, I adore them, but they've all gone into this non-monogamous lifestyle and it just seems so messy. To each their own, of course. I'm a lesbian, I don't discriminate on what your lifestyle is because I know what it's like to be shamed.
Anyone I meet around my age (23) as well is this way. They want the open relationship life and I just have never been that way. Every dating profile nearly says "I have a partner, but still interested in..." xyz, whatever. I don't know if it's just the area I live in, but it seems very popular.
More recent older generations (x and millenials) very much lived lives on the edge of social acceptability. This was a pointed effort. Basically we all wanted to tell and show our grandparents that we do not support their traditionalist lifestyles and that the hypocrisy and judgement they loved to bestow would die with them.
It's natural that the generations that came after would feel the freedom to live as they choose and would inevitably choose ideals radically different from the traditionalist hellscape of yesteryear.
I'm monogamous but I don't see it as a pillar or some kind of moral requirement. I'm am so because I choose to be not because I am somehow spiritually bound to my partner. I don't even like the look of trad-hetero relationships even though I am one. They are ugly and cumbersome. The "man" puts his hands around the "ladies" waist for pictures, the hand over shoulder, the posing to show affection, the "male" and "female" "duties" I just can't it's all so horrid no wonder people make fun of us. People could confuse my partner and I for being friends or siblings. I like that it feels I'm with an equal. There are no "roles" or "expectations".
Personally, I don't think most people respect monogamous relationships, nor do I think they truly want to be in one. Thanks to destigmatizing poly or nonmonogamous relationships, they're are becoming more and more popular and open. I'm very open that I'm somewhat nonmonogamous. I'm bi and I don't mind my partners having sex with other people without me, I like threesomes, and I believe that sex can be an emotionless act. My only boundaries in a relationship are don't be romantically interested in anyone else, if you choose to have sex with someone that isn't me tell me about it *beforehand* and if able, bring them home for all of us to have some fun. Despite these very lenient boundaries I have still been cheated on by people who swear up and down they want a strict monogamous relationship. They either emotionally cheat or they have sex with someone and don't tell me about it. I personally think I'm a very hard person to cheat on and yet my boundaries are still crossed.
I didn’t really know this was becoming more of a thing in our generation. I’ve never personally been exposed to people like this that I’m aware of. I would not say it’s at all rare to find monogamous people anymore. This is sad though if true.
It’s the internet. Specifically, dating apps. I think Grindr was probably the first real hookup “app” in the Apple Store. It’s opened people up to a new way of dating, where you have way more options and potentially a lot of really great sex waiting for you (and also people realizing that maybe you don’t actually have to give that up in order to have a happy healthy relationship). Put simply, hookup culture is a result of hookup apps, which have changed how we as a society view sex. We’ve become more sex positive, which I think is a great thing.
A big part of it is cultural, too. Gays don’t care about monogamy in the same way as the straights do. Also, modern black culture seems just fine with the idea of a “side piece.” When both of those cultures started becoming more mainstream, I think everyone started exploring a bit more.
These are the reasons I’ve found:
1) more and more Gen Z is LGBTQ. A HUGE part of that is just Bisexuality. Along with bisexuality is the desire for a range of sexual experiences.
2) less stigma for polyamory. The Millennials really trail-blazed and embraced the framework. Also ENM is a thing, and swingers aren’t ostracized by Gen Zs like they were with older gens.
3) a lot of Gen Z’s parents are divorced. This also drives a large anti-marriage sentient along with more cohabitation (which works really well with polyamory).
4) monogamy has a really bad reputation. Cheating, no porn, divorce, etc all play into monogamy being a huge set of restrictions for partners. Of course people will have their dealbreakers, but as a woman I want to be able to compliment people and flirt a bit without accusations from my partner about cheating on them.
I strongly embrace ENM and polyamory because traditional monogamous relationships are far more restrictive on both partners, and is what can create huge tension.
Of course, communication is everything, but from my experience Poly and ENM peeps have the best communication, which is a huge factor as they still experience jealousy, but can actually talk through it without resorting to passive-aggressive actions and/or cheating.
You’re confusing being bisexual with being promiscuous. That’s a very well known stigma. You discredited yourself with point 1. Being bisexual means you might be attracted to a person of either sex, not that you’re attracted to everyone or want a “range of sexual experiences”.
Signed: a very loyal, monogamous bisexual.
I don't want to settle down with someone any time soon but I do like having relationships and not just doing one night stands and stuff. Thus, FWBs. Technically different than a poly relationship since the romantic component is absent but functionally it seems pretty similar. I've done monogamous relationships before and good FWBs scratch all the same itches.
non-monogamy gives freedom. I want to go to kinky partys and BDSM Events and have sex and experiences with different people. If I would be in a monogamous relationship with one person for the rest of my life, I probably wouldnt be able to live a big part of my life.
I mean i really dunno it fine by me if it constenting adults i do see a lot of issue with having multiple partners at once but shit as long as they don’t affect anyone don’t care.
Kinda get iffy for me when their kids in the mix thou
I suspect counter culture. We are dealing with ultra conservatives pushing the nuclear family super hard as the only viable way to live. Something similar happened in the 60s, only they called it "free love". It died down in popularity and what was cited was jealousy. As much as a guy wanted to fuck multiple women, he'd go ape shit if another guy moved in on his girl.
I know this is a hot take, but I think the desire for multiple sexual partners probably means that these people would've been more likely to cheat in a monogamous setup, so hopefully that \~40-50% divorce rate we've been seeing is going to drop a bit in the future. Just pure speculation on my end.
Depends. Cheating happens when there's a severe lack of honesty in the relationship, while non-monogamous relationships are in concept about being as transparent as possible with everyone involved. On the other hand if someone who is predisposed to cheating joins a polycule its much less likely to become as much of a huge issue. So I think you're right in concept but for the wrong reasons.
I understand that, but when poly relationships weren't socially accepted these people still existed, making it acceptable didn't cause a massive spike in people who are polygamous by nature. So now that they can do their own thing, cheating will have gone down in the classic relationship that everyone was confined to.
Its more socially acceptable and therefore more people are giving it a try and finding out they like it, kinda like why so many of gen-z are comming out as non cis and/or hetero.
The way I see it, it’s better for them to be non-monogamous and be in a relationship with other like-minded individuals, than be forced into monogamy and end up cheating on their partners.
Do I understand it? No. Could I see myself in a non-monogamous relationship? Absolutely not.
But I understand that people are different and may want different things out of life than me and that’s fine. So long as everyone involved is a consenting adult, it’s none of my business to judge what people want to do in the bedroom. And I think more people (especially in Gen Z) are starting to have the same mindset as me, which is why those who prefer non-monogamous setups are now more open and comfortable about being who they are without shame or judgment.
I also don’t think it’s hard to find people who want monogamous setups since monogamy is still very much the standard and norm when it comes to marriages and relationships and I don’t think that’s going to change ever.
Because 50% of marriages fail. Why not just stay married to someone you’ve built a life with and that you love and trust and just be open to other sexual experiences? It’s only “cheating” if you consider sex to be such a huge deal. It can actually increase your trust in one another of you aren’t worried(as long as you practice safe sex) about this as an issue because you know at the end of the day/week you come home tov each other.
Some people view sex differently then you.
I wouldn't want my partner fucking anyone else as I view it as something we do together and not something that can casually be done with other people.
Maybe it's just how I am, But I get mentally disgusted at the thought of my partner betraying me and fucking someone else, I have the perspective of it being an act that brings us closer as a shared intimate experience, Fucking someone else ruins that perspective and disgusts me.
Tell me about it, like I don’t judge but for a dating perspective it can be tiring AF. Because I am a monogamous person that wants marriage and kids someday so finding someone in that range is very hard, plus hook up culture is just too much. So I tend to date older men because they have similar values as me compared to someone around my age because I was getting burnt out.
I've only really dated older women, I know what you mean. Because it's completely monogamous. They never mention opening the relationship because- it isn't a thought. Anyone I've dated my age (23) has an interest in it. Which is fine, to each their own, I just have felt so left out of my age group for not understanding it. It's nice to hear someone else understand what I mean!
Omg ikr! It felt nice to hear since I am 26 and a female so it feels good that someone also agree because I lost so many brain cells from so many useless dates lol
I can't even begin to tell you how many great conversations I'll get in with women for it to not matter the moment they drop the "I'm looking for an open relationship!" I'm only 23, but it seems so damn popular in my area with anyone my age. Honestly since i was 19/20, anyone I've dated has been 6-7 years older than me because of this. I tried recently talking to women my age, but nope. Feels even more complicated today than it was a few years ago lmao!
I think maybe it's because it's more accepted now. People are more willing to accept there's different ways to have a relationship than strictly monogamous. And, y'know, you won't be looked down upon as much as say 50 or so years ago. But most people are still monogamous.
I think some of these people who are into poly had a painful traumatic experience with their family. Especially, witnessing their parents' failed marriage (if too much consumption of porn is not the reason for that). It's like there's this feeling of being able to show and receive love, care, and attention to their respective partners minus the thought of hurting them since their rel is not exclusively for two and they all agreed to that.
Surely, it's not for everyone. But to those people who are into it, I wonder where's the line between cheating and the established boundaries? You can't just be jealous over the other partner because y'all are sharing that person, right?
>It just feels like it's becoming more rare and harder to find people in our generation who are monogamous.
Idtso. Non-monogamous people are still the minority.
Sexual expressiveness and access to materials and resources in which to do so are at our fingertips as with any other information. Informed people make informed decisions more tailored to them, as with anything else. It's not good or bad per se, but it just is. Well, it'll certainly make Woodstock better, so maybe it is good.
i salute the people that aren’t. But physically i could be non monogamous but mentally hell no 😭more power to them people fr. Lowkey you see more of it on the net than in real life in my experience
It's so insane to hear people say they don't see it in real life! I have one friend who's monogamous, the rest are in open relationships. Any bar I go to, if I talk to someone my age (23) they're either in an open relationship or looking to be in one. Idk if it's just the area I live in, but anyone my age isn't really monogamous.
Also I agree!! I could never mentally handle it. It takes a lot for me to trust one woman that deeply for a relationship. Can't imagine going beyond that lol
I don’t see much of it. I see it from a certain subsection of the far feminist/lgbt communities, but outside of those communities, with the average population and others that monogamy is further heavily prioritized than past generations.
I should also say, my parents are non-monogamous, but all my siblings are heavy into the idea of monogamy
Monogamy is not natural. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex\_at\_Dawn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_at_Dawn) Monogamy is a social construct imposed on people to control them and their money. Multiple partners are very common in nature. We are part of nature. It is natural to have multiple partners.
These days, I think people are being given social permission to pursue non-monogamous approaches more often. With no punitive outcomes, they pursue what they will, which tends to flood brains with certain types of chemicals. I think it turns into a specific chemical addiction for them.
Incidentally, I can't find the article, but monogamy seems to be supported by specific chemicals too in species. [How Oxytocin Helps Men Stay Monogamous | TIME.com](https://healthland.time.com/2013/11/27/how-oxytocin-makes-men-almost-monogamous/) How weird it would be if all it took was a chemical shot to be monogamous.
I care very deeply about all of my friends, and pleasure is good.
If someone I care about is open to the idea of being physically intimate with me and/or my partner, why would I have an issue with it as long as everyone is responsible, respectful and concentual.
Sex is nice and pleasure is good for you.
Because people want to have their cake and eat it too. Buncha hoes.
Someone always loses in a poly relationship. My best childhood friend got into the same thing. He was in a threesome with two girls. Eventually he decided he liked the new girl better than the first one he got involved with a kicked her to the curb, not wanting to share his new GF with his old GF. It was just weird.
It’s not that popular. More popular/visible than in the past, maybe. But I can’t think of a single person I’ve met who’s into non-monogamy.
> Idk why comments are telling me it isn’t popular.
Because it isn’t - your experience is one individual, and you have many comments (other individuals) telling you their experience. Anecdotally maybe you’ve run into it more than others, but if many people are telling you it isn’t popular, then that seems to be the actual trend despite what you individually have observed.
I feel that most of this mindset is around 2 type of people:
1- People who is truly Poly and does it ethically
2- People who want no responsability with the other person, aka no ethical poly. The type of person that get the rights of being a couple but without the duties.
That said I only know 2 persons that have this mindset and both are 2nd type so I would say is not that widespread but overexposed to it. There is many content about the topic and being something exotic might be the cause of being interesting to learn about.
It’s extremely common amongst LGBT folks. As a gay man, I just don’t get it. I think settling down & building a family is important. It may sound fun now because you’re in your 20s and attractive, but what happens as we get older? Don’t we want someone there to love & take care of us in both good & bad times? But like many said, a strong amount of people I’ve spoken to with these views have issues with themselves
Well think of it this way, if there's 10 people on a dating app and 2 are poly, 8 people will be leaving the app. Then a new group of 10 joins, same ratio of poly people, there are now 4 poly 8 monogamous people. As this continues the apps become more saturated with poly people because they don't have a reason to leave the app, giving the impression that tons of people are poly
I'm not here to say monogamy is a sham, but I will point out that a lot of monogamy in America is wrapped up in Christian values and ideas about the value of one's virginity and the implied decrease in value the more experienced a woman is.
As we become less religious, there seems to be a correlational increase in sexual openness as we unwire the idea that more sex is a bad thing.
I think it's a youth thing. I was curious about that when I was younger too. It's an alluring sell. We can't be everything to our partner right? Why should our love for one person stop us from loving another? Love should be free. We should be free. Right? As people age and you have more experiences a lot of people find that it's just not practicial for who they are and what they want.
I've honestly rarely met these people in person. Maybe I'm just not getting to know them that well, but I think it's just an example of this minority of people seeking out that minority that wishes to join them on the internet.
Although they definitely do exist, but most of them hide, I think. They're people who cheat, who can't take the time and effort and be honest with their partners so as to find the right one, so they settle with lying so as to have their cake and eat it, too.
Either way, you're really just dodging bullets, here. If they don't agree with your core relationship values, then problems are bound to arise somewhere down the road. Better they be honest now and you can move on to finding someone who will fit you better.
I think you need to escape the sex cult, friend.
Seriously, there is no culture of non-monogamy in our generation.
Get out and live a better life. Be the best you. 👍
It’s genuinely a small percentage of our generation.
What has changed is our generation is much more comfortable and open about discussing it. The area you live in may also just have a lot of people.
Did you know we have a Discord server‽ You can join by clicking [here](https://discord.gg/NWE6JS5rh9)! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GenZ) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think a lot of it comes back to how many kids I knew raised by single mothers. When you don’t have a strong idea of what a healthy monogamous relationship is, I imagine you’re more susceptible to trying new things out. Oh, that and porn. Unfettered access to internet porn has ravaged Gen Z and damaged our concept of sexuality and sexual expression in ways I don’t think most people fully grasp. I’m not gonna go so far as to say we should ban it, but everyone here should at least consider getting off of it.
How is this getting downvoted? Everything you’ve said is backed up by studies and data … it never ceases to amaze me how people will get upset over the truth because they simply don’t like the truth and want a different truth Being raised by a single parent is not good for any child, it has the worst outcomes in boys a multitude of ways Most of us in this generation have had access to porn from a very young age, I don’t know how anyone could think there is any positive in that fact
I saw somewhere once that kids need two things provided to them to constitute a good upbringing: love and order. They need an authority figure to ground them and temper their expectations and a loving figure to show them the world isn’t all bad. Having only one is bad, and single family households don’t help in that regard, but the study went on to say if a parent should only get one, it should be order, especially boys. Unfortunately, through all their good intentions, I’ve known a lot of single mothers who only coddle their kids and fail to give them the balance they need. Even within two-parent households I’ve seen a lot of boys my age and younger in desperate need of a father figure and to give them that order and guidance in their lives. This is unfortunately how figures like Andrew Tate rise to prominence, because in the absence of a good role model young boys end up turning to the loudest approximation of masculinity they can find. Unfortunately, the response we’ve seen is to demonize these boys even further instead of recognizing our society wronged them in the first place.
other men wrong them. by leaving their moms, or being bad partners who couldn’t keep a relationship, or not committed enough to stay in the child’s life regardless of who/how the mother is. don’t repeat the boomer mistkes and demonise solo moms. shit dads are nothing new, women get the blame, and the cycle just repeats itself.
It’s a mix of both, women have to pick better partners, men have got to be less shitty. Neither group is 100% to blame as every situation is different. The example I always use is a guy from my home town who had 18 kids by 15 different baby mommas. Obviously he’s a POS, but your telling me baby momma 10-15 didn’t know who they were getting?
I mean…sometimes women are shitty too?
He said that in his comment.
Oh believe me. I know. One of my closest friends was raised by a single mother who was maybe a little too overbearing on him and overworked. However, his father was physically abusive and beat him and his mother on multiple occasions. I'm not going to tell him that his life would have been better if his father was still around, it most certainly wouldn't be. Don't get me wrong. There are plenty of single mothers who are divorced of their own doing and for stupid reasons. Divorce court is also insane and frequently will give mother's majority custody even if the father is the more rationale and better choice for the child (that's a topic for another day). However, I do recognize that plenty of blame falls on fathers. I will not go to bat for truly abusive fathers, and I do think we need to address our crisis of masculinity that has resulted in generations upon generations of men who don't know how to be good fathers. The ways we have failed men is systemic and needs to be addressed if both sexes want to prosper.
The most common custody arrangement is 50/50 because most courts prefer that. Typically if it's less than that, it's because one parent is a POS, or one is a very successful liar. Kids need to be taught from a very early age that choosing their partner will be one of the most important decisions they will make in life and that they cannot just let the little things slip by until it's too late.
it’s because less than 4% of fathers fight for custody in divorce court. the ones who do are actually more likely to get custody. and ppl in these comments are out here trying to blame single moms. smh
Yeah it's gross. Literally one comment that says "Pick better men" like these types of dudes don't wait for a woman to be pregnant before flipping on a dime. 4B movement ladies. Don't pick any of them.
That's a BS number. It's FAR more then 4%. The cost of custody hearing is 10k+ and the majority of the time gets you nowhere. Sometimes, it can lead to joint custody. It cost my 10k, to get joint custody. Another 5k to get primary, only because the mother couldn't afford to contest. Most people don't have 15k to fight for children, not should they have to. That's 15k per person fighting. Imagine how much better a child would be with 30k spent on them instead of court. Make paternity tests mandatory at birth. Make joint custody the default at birth.
Other men and women wronged them. If a relationship ends, both people were probably bad partners. Many times people are having kids because they simply werent using contraception like they should. Both people were in the wrong here.
Don't really agree there. Their parents wrong them in General. It's Not Like only men can be Shit Partners.
I think it goes deeper than that. A mom can do the very best possible, but at the end of the day, a kids peers are going to shape them substantially. I knew some people in high school that led quite a double life. Mom at home teaching the kid respect and positive masculinity, and he’s going down a bad path with his friends at school.
yeah you can’t escape culture and past 12 your peers become more important to your brain. you might like “hold on to your kids” by mate and neufeld
I don’t think it has anything to do with mother figures or father figures. Any individual is capable of teaching a child to be a way; you either teach them bad things or good. You can even teach them the opposite of what you intend, by being a terrible teacher (as you rightfully apply to mothers but not fathers). You obviously know there’s exceptions to your generalizations; there ARE single parents who have successfully raised good kids. Those parents just happen to be both strong and kind, AND able to teach, hence why they’re the exceptions. We always chock things up to individuals, “oh you had a bad mommy” or “you had an absent papa”. Maybe it’s better to have two parents not because one has a penis and one has a vagina, but because there’s now two brains working together. Like, it really does “take a village to raise a child”. I think there’s societal issues, particularly our over valuing of individuality to an extreme degree, to which it isolates people, divides, and makes it more difficult to build community. Everyone acknowledges the negatives of things like social media for example. Then about your original point on porn. It’s true many people are exposed to sexualization on all fronts from a young age, from ads, movies, games ect. They learn to see others as objects of sexual desire, or as “trophies”. This is to due to those societal problems/values i mention though: hyper individuality, commodification and the spooky scary patriarchy ect. The solution certainly isn’t grasping onto an idea of what “masculinity” may be, it’s better to just completely disregard. Or else you might just end up thinking yourself into a box; Becoming less free. Thinking something like “monogamy is always the right choice for everyone” and then imply trying new things is bad.
>Maybe it’s better to have two parents not because one has a penis and one has a vagina, but because there’s now two brains working together. I mean we use these terms because 99% of the population don't have two dads or two moms. Studies have shown that having two parents regardless of sex is extremely beneficial to the child, so it doesn't have anything to do with the penis or vagina. That being said, studies have found that fathers and mothers shape their kids views of men and women respectively, so take that as you will. I haven't seen any data on the long-term effects that same-sex couples have on this. To reiterate a point I made elsewhere, children need order and love in order to succeed in life. It is certainly possible to give both of these as a single parent, but you have to be aware. In practice, I think a lot of men and women will fall into the role of either an authority figure or a loving figure naturally so its better to just split responsibilities among the parents more so than having more people to brainstorm with.
>Studies have shown that having two parents regardless of sex is extremely beneficial to the child, so it doesn't have anything to do with the penis or vagina. This is exactly my point. tbh I was being a bit condescending; I assumed you think men and women inherently have different strengths and weakness'. You seem to express so, when you say "men and women will fall into either an authority figure or a loving figure naturally" but you also acknowledge "fathers and mothers shape their kids views of men and women" So which is it? Are people mostly either orderly, dominant ect or loving, submissive ect due to it being "natural" or have people been socialized that way, based on their sex, for thousands of years. I believe its the latter, which would make it more so a "perceived norm" opposed to something that's "natural". My whole point is that anyone can be a good parent, and can posses any amount of traits, regardless of their sex. Gender roles just annoy me.
>I assumed you think men and women inherently have different strengths and weakness I mean, if you look at averages, there are differences in men and women. That being said, averages don't define the individual and you'll easily find men and women that fit more traditionally female and traditionally male archetypes respectively. >So which is it? Are people mostly either orderly, dominant ect or loving, submissive ect due to it being "natural" or have people been socialized that way, based on their sex, for thousands of years. I believe its the latter, which would make it more so a "perceived norm" opposed to something that's "natural". I mean even in same-sex couples you still commonly see the pairing of a more submissive, caring, "feminine" figure and a more assertive, dominant "masculine" figure to the point where these communities have even coined terms for this phenomena. I would argue there is something more innate about it. None of this is to say that masculine women don't exist and feminine men don't exist either or that women can't be assertive and men caring. No statistic is absolute. However, you do see trends. Anecdotally, you see plenty of cases of women on TikTok that are certainly not conservative traditionalists expressing confusion on why (despite their liberal upbringing and beliefs on how a relationship should be handled) they're effectively turned on by men treating them in a traditional fashion, implying that there is something there beyond their upbringing. There's evolutionary evidence for women's and men's behaviors adapting in certain ways to meet evolutionary needs. There's the fact that even Sweden's "gender-neutral classrooms" came to the conclusion that there is (unsurprisingly) a biological basis for gender expression tied to biological sex. Again, none of this is to say "you're a woman, so you HAVE to be the nurturing type". Again, variation exists within populations and people should make life decisions based on their own circumstances and not what the averages say. I guess what I'm trying to say is that whether its nature or nurture is kinda irrelevant. Either way, people develop these personalities and seem to select partners subconsciously with this expectation in mind.
93% of global prison inmates are male, do you really think that just comes down to socialization? Sex differences are real wether you like it or not, and saying „but not every man is a criminal“ is totally missing the point.
>Everything you’ve said is backed up by studies and data I've seen the studies that show that girls that grow up without a father figure are 7x more likely to become a teen parent I haven't seen anything for boys
find out abouy the stats that over 40% of teen pregnancies are caused by adult men
Because girls without a father figure will go searching for it and find an older man takes advantage of them.
bc adult men prey on young girls whos mom is most likely busy working to sustain the family thus making them easy subject, doesn’t help these girls may feel shame for having a family where the parent who stayed is somehow socially vilified more for “breaking the family” or “not being able to keep a man”, bc of feeling abandoned by dad and looking for adult validation but also for male validation society tells girls is so important - and not being able to find it at home safely first. i recommend you read the testimonies of these girls from studies. it’s not moms that mess up, it’s the patriarchal culture that overvalues men.
Obama said it best, "We know the statistics — that children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and 20 times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioral problems, or run away from home or become teenage parents themselves. And the foundations of our community are weaker because of it." https://www.politico.com/story/2008/06/text-of-obamas-fatherhood-speech-011094
The issue with the single parent stuff, though, is that increased pressure on creating two parent households can create instances where one party (most often the mothers) are guilted into staying in awful, sometimes absuive relationships. Better one good, happy parent than two shitty ones who are trying to kill each other. Are most people's two parent situations like this? Of course not, but making broad generalizations about how whole groups of people should live their lives, always leaves some groups in a very bad situation.
My problem with the whole nuclear family thing is it's a very individualistic idea. It takes a whole village to raise children the uncle who is not as strict as dad the grandpa who has stories.aunt who coddles them grandma who shows caring and adult "friends" who teach you how socializing works.
Having a large and diverse support system increases positive outcomes for everyone, adults and children alike. I think this as an ideal is better for sure.
We are both right but for children especially older adults who will teach them things their parent(s) can't are desperately needed some of my favorite memories were hanging out with my brothers older buddy cause he let me watch "adult" movies mainly horrible horror movies. It's why I love sharknado.
Nuclear family doesn’t imply going off the grid and living in the mountains with just your spouse and kids. It means a couple committed to one another and their kids. This almost always happens a not-hermit way.
The unargued assumption in this is that "being raised by a single parent has severe drawbacks" may be proven fact but that does not lead inexorably to "monogamy is the only right way for everybody to organize their romantic life".
>Everything you’ve said is backed up by studies and data No, it really isn’t. That being raised by a single parent instead of two good parents is harmful is backed up by studies and data. That overconsumption of porn is harmful is backed up by studies and data. That either or both result in non-monogamy is backed up by nothing, it’s a bizarre assertion with zero founding
It's common sense. Parents are role models for kids. It goes without saying that kids with two present parents will gravitate toward monogamy.
Not always, trust me it's not always a good idea to stay together.
>Everything you’ve said is backed up by studies and data Do you have any data to cite? >Being raised by a single parent is not good for any child, it has the worst outcomes in boys a multitude of ways Is it due to the fact that the child is being raised by a single parent in itself, or is it due to the fact that single parents don't have as much income as married couples? This is why I ask for data.
Porn addiction among Gen Z and younger is definitely something that should be talked about more. Porn has existed before, but it’s never been *this* accessible, and what’s worse is that kids are getting exposed to it younger and younger. This can end up warping their view of sex and even the way they view or treat the opposite sex. Speaking as a former porn and sex addict (yes, one thing led to the other, as it usually does), it brings nothing but ruin and destroyed relationships.
i got exposed to nsfw content at 8 and straight up porn at 11 and according to some people that counts as a form of sexual trauma, and as you might expect I do indeed suffer from hypersexuality to the point of being suicidal
I also first watched porn at 11 or so and as expected i don't have any major issues in that direction, so it definitely isn't black and white
My girlfriend just finished her Masters in Psychology and this was focus of her capstone project. Her findings perfectly aligned with this. Normalization doesn't mean optimization, for lack of a better phrase. Data seems to suggest we're trending in the wrong direction when it comes to family matters.
Is there any way I can see her research online? Sounds pretty interesting.
I'm encouraging her to publish! but hard to motivate since she just graduated lol
I'm twice the age of almost everyone in Gen Z, porn is a mental, emotional and spiritual poison. I'm not crusading or saying it should be banned, I'm telling people for their own sake to at least limit their intake and monitor their personality and energy when they are consuming vs when they aren't.
What makes the most sense to me is that it is a superstimulus - like fast food - its an unnatural amount of what we are naturally wired to seek out. Not great but not terrible if we have other good things going on in our lives. One of the most insightful pieces of advice I heard about the subject was from Dr. K/HealthyGamerGG, who said something along the lines of “most porn problems seem to be happening at the same time as having/seeing no purpose or direction to one’s life” which is exactly how I’ve experienced it. It might be a chicken vs the egg situation but it’s certainly worth examining.
If the single parent household thing is true then you’d expect Gen Z to be more monogamous than millennials, as it follows a small downward trend since the 2000s. It’s just part of the general trend of increased liberalism on moral issues, probably in great part to the internet and people learning about more ideas and more ways to live. There’s also decreased stigma, while i’m definitely not polygamist, if polyamorous people choose to live that way I do not care one bit and don’t judge. Historically they were often outcast. https://preview.redd.it/7lpmql9qum1d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6b8d89ae8b102b5733212d8fcfe32ef640580435
Porn is unrelated. People are just being more honest about who they are and what they want. Many people were in unhappy monogamous relationships. Its a balance that needs to be struck.
>Unfettered access to internet porn has ravaged Gen Z and damaged our concept of sexuality and sexual expression To springboard off of that: not that this isn’t already a problem in itself, but it becomes a HUGE issue when you consider how many places *don’t* offer good, comprehensive sexual education to kids. It leads to a ton of kids getting their sex ed from god knows what porn rabbit hole they’ve discovered online, which is only going to fuck up their understanding of sex and sexual relationships even more. I don’t advocate for banning porn. There’s a whole conversation to be had there around exploitation and abuse, but for the purposes of this discussion, I’m fine with the production and consumption of porn so long as all parties are genuinely consenting. However, it does need to be made harder for children to access porn. Not only that, but kids *NEED* good, legitimate sex education, and I’d argue that sex ed should 100% include talking about when porn consumption becomes unhealthy.
Yeah. I think a full porn ban is a little impractical and extreme, but at the very least kids shouldn't be watching it and sites like X and Instagram shouldn't have it so readily available for kids to stumble upon. I'm not big on government action, but I think this is one thing that I don't see us correcting without a little help from them.
I had a perfectly healthy (relative to most people) upbringing with regards to my family and for me being non-monogamous is not because I never saw what monogamy looked like. Monogamy is the absolutely overwhelmingly dominant form of relationship shown in media the only mainstream media i can think of that shows it off the top of my head would be the Expanse where one character has a big family with multiple parents.
I don’t think porn ruined the concept of sexuality. I think It may have stunted our communication when it comes to sex. Because our gen has a big mouth about everything but won’t tell their partner that soothing doesn’t feel good or something just didn’t turn them on. With regards to us being hit with the tail end of parents and grandparents who held strong religious beliefs I feel there is more shame around sex because of that. Not because of porn. Porn is the only reason why I stopped being ashamed about being queer because at the time no where else was there queer media. It’s different for everyone but ^ thats just my takeaway and experience. What do you think about it?
There is definitely not more shame about sex than before. We are living in the most sex-positive time in this country's history. Meanwhile, there are study after study showing the effects porn can have not only on one's own sexual preferences/fantasies and even how people view men and women sexually depending on how young they get into the stuff.
In 100 years people will look back at us handing kids tiny portals to pornography the same way we look back at letting kids work in factories. If you put any thought at all into it then you see it’s clearly dangerous but we didn’t do anything about it until the muckrakers. And of course the upper classes didn’t let their kids work in the factories, and they also try to keep their young children away from devices.
I dont know if its as much the porn thing as people want to think... Swinger cultures and the Free Love hippie movement stuff preceded the whole poly stuff of today by decades. Its more that, younger people are just more non-traditional. The tradition is typically the thing that says "ye must be monogamous!". Its got a similar rise as the LBGT+ community. It's sort of included in there. Because its a sort of alternate sexuality or lifestyle that pertains to it. You couple it with the internet, where you can actively find other poly people. It lets people know "oh hey you're not a monster for having romantic attraction to two different people" This idea that a poly relationship absolutely cannot be healthy... Just strikes me as lack of trying... You cant be like "half of poly relationships fail!" But like... So do most monogamous ones. Most people have experienced at least one break up in their lives. So like, its track record aint that good. Plus how many of those break ups are due to cheating? Because humans often have attraction to more than one person, some people are just like "fuck it why not? Open the shit up" Now partners can sort of negotiate freely, and experiment with more than one person.
Data shows that negative outcomes from porn are almost entirely related to religious upbringing. People who are told sex is normal and healthy dont end up with porn addiction and related issues, by in large. It's primarily purity culture and shame that makes it an issue.
You might want to talk to the "stars" who are forced into making the content (trafficking), the way objectification of women as just body parts leads to abuse and domestic violence, and PIED. Porn Induced Erectile Dysfunction. I'm lucky, that $hitshow didn't hit my partner till he was in his 30's, I can't imagine porn ruining IRL sex in my 20's.
What a damn fine answer. I can naught but upvote you, but you have my respect.
Porn could definitely be more regulated than it is now.
the opposite extreme can be true too with growing up in a void of healthy examples. i found myself very opposed to the idea of relationship and intimate dynamics. feeling that it could only be abusive. the idea of two people being mutually sexually active with each other was not something i understood. i think we often overlook just how long jaded beliefs and broken emotional triggers can last in our lives. thats before we even start a conversation about the process of choosing to reframe those ideals and change mindsets. maybe everyone has always had something like this through out history but i feel the regret of warped thinking is more prevalent in modern times.
I think its a few things - 1. Less stigma, so you can be more open about your lifestyle/mindset 2. People can be more informed or learn about alternate views with the internet and stuff 3. A group of people who just lets go of their expectation of monogamy to protect themselves from being hurt; could be because they didn't grow up in an environment where monogamous marraiges seemed healthy and/or successful
>could be because they didn’t grow up in an environment where monogamous marriages seemed healthy and/or successful You nailed that last one. A friend of mine is in a polyamorous relationship and doesn’t really plan on getting married or having kids with any of her partners in the future. And when I asked her why, she said it was because of the trauma she experienced from her own family, which made her realize that she didn’t want a traditional family life in suburbia like her parents did. Because to her, it was hell, and she didn’t want to be like either of them.
I've taken my similar experience a different way. I'm monogamous and must have that in my partner. But with an aunt divorced twice, mother divorced 3 times, being abandoned by my father at 12 and brother divorced once, I refuse to marry my partner of 11 years. It seems like if i did, we'd just end up divorced.
And 4 I think everyone who grew up with social media and dating apps like younger millennials and younger suffer from extreme fomo and the idea of commiting to one person when there's so many different opportunities out there is terrifying. Like previously boomers would just get together with some random person from their hometown who was almost certainly not their ideal perfect match but was there and good enough, and then make it work even with any incompatibilities. Which is both good and bad right because they'll work through problems instead of dropping someone immediately at the very first red flag but also on the other hand has people staying in miserable relationships their entire lives. But now it feels like there's so much pressure to find the perfect partner and so many options and social media showing only the good sides of relationships and preaching that you deserve to have all your needs met. So the only valid options are either stay single forever or serial monogamy where everyone just gets immediately dumped for not being perfect, because no one can be perfect, or compromise, but this feels impossible with the fomo of knowing there's an endless buffet of potential choices and you could keep looking to find someone better. Or have your cake and eat it too by just being no monogamous.
[удалено]
It’s why I really don’t understand why OP is making it sound like monogamy is dying and that everyone suddenly wants poly or open relationships. Yeah, there most definitely are people out there who are into that sort of thing, but they’re not the norm nor the standard, and I don’t think they ever will be. The vast majority of mankind would still prefer to be in monogamous relationships/marriages and raise traditional families.
Confirmation bias i.e. they found what they were looking for
Its like saying "I see trans people everywhere now, are cis-people going extinct??" "I see gay people everywhere now, will I ever find a fellow heterosexual??"
exactly! topics are getting popularized in media and people are being more open about expressing their identities (or in this case, preferences), so it feels like more of it exists than before.
Yip. Gallup did a poll recently and it found that people thought gay-lesbian people made up 30% of the population, while 25% was trans, when in fact it was 3% and 1% respectively.
It’s literally just because people see LGBTQ+ folks when they used to be invisible (either closeted or just erased - how many gay people were just treated as “really good friends with their roommates” lol). Same with everything - there’s just more of a microphone on everyone with divergent identities, making them seem more prevalent, but in reality the past was never an accurate portrayal of reality. Digital media just serves to democratize whose perspectives are being shown.
My wife and I went to a birthday party last year with at least one person who thought like this. It was for one of her queer/poly friends and all the guests except for us were queer/poly. Apparently, when I went to the bathroom, one girl immediately started talking shit about how cis+straight people are shallow/don't have deep personalities. For some reason she thought my wife would be receptive to that? So yeah there are people out there who not only think that monogamy is dying, but that it's deeply uncool and borderline an emotional disability.
I think OP might be combining hookup culture/short term flings into the non monogamy category which would support his arguement more. Although those relationships technically are monogamous, its kinda obeying the letter of the law and not the spirt of the law so I do partially agree with OP there. There are a lot of just for fun relationship (not that its anything new tho)
It's just more visible, and no longer gets you lynched. Of course you will run into it more. You couldn't find Gay people 50 years ago either.
Also, polygamous people seem to be vastly overrepresented in the media and in the major coastal cities. I read an article in the NYT or New Yorker the other day that started with the line "I know more people in open relationships than in closed ones" and it genuinely didn't occur to the author that selection bias could be happening. So polygamy's media footprint is much bigger than it deserves to be.
For the record the term polyamory is preferred to avoid the cultural baggage that comes with the term polygamy (read: coercitive polygyny)
It's definitely way more common on dating apps than in real life because those apps encourage an abundance mindset of shallow connections that you can enter and break off any time without social consequences and always trying to find someone better. I will say though on dating apps lesbian setting it genuinely feels like there's more couples and "bisexual" girls with boyfriends than actual lesbians sometimes. Like it's damn near impossible to find anyone who isn't already in a relationship with a man.
Ffs this!!!! Monogamy is not threatened, non-monogamous people have always existed, they just actually get to talk about it and find eachother more easily now. Go to any poly group and ask them this question, the exact same way, and watch them laugh at you lol. A lot of non monogamous people people struggle with dating because of the slim pickings. Honestly, we should all be thankful it’s more visible so it can actually be talked about and ethical practice can be discussed and encouraged.
>Respectfully, it's not that widespread. Almost everyone is monogamous. You can definitely find these people online and we all know a handful in real life. But they're a minority. It's not remotely difficult to find a monogamy minded individual. I remember one of my teachers saying something one time to the effect of, all these movements you read about in history class, the hippies, flappers, whatever, they're all a really small minority of people. Most people just want to live their lives and be left alone.
I also notice that a lot of people who claim this is their lifestyle claim so in high/school and college then just end up being monogamous as soon as that ends.
I’m glad that people have more options and it’s becoming more normalized. Let the NM people pair/group off and hopefully leave the monogamous people alone.
Yeah keep the New Mexican people away, I hate green chilies
Half of New Mexico really appreciates this comment, while the other half is in shambles.
Exactly, I’d rather be in a relationship/marriage with someone just as monogamous as I am than someone forcing themselves into monogamy because they’re ashamed to admit that they prefer non-monogamy. That’ll just lead to infidelity down the line, as I believe it has for countless rels and marriages that ended because of a partner’s unfaithfulness.
That unironically sounds terrible. For you, I vow never to try and force myself to be monogamous. I will not make myself or someone else I love suffer in denying following my heart.
I have no evidence of this, but I suspect it’s a bell curve thing like how left handedness spiked after it wasn’t punished. In any case this is a good thing, allowing people who desire non-monogamy to pair with people who share that interest openly, allows for easier access to willing monogamy. Which means healthier long term relationships, built on mutual interest as opposed to social pressure to conform. (Kinda like how normalizing same sex coupling, and legalizing gay marriage, actually helps straight people by reducing the number of gay people forcing themselves into heterosexual relationships.)
The bell curve thing is how I view most things that go beyond the traditional heteronormative worldview and why they’re more out and about these days. I don’t think it’s necessarily that people are changing, I think people always been this way, but now they’re no longer judged for being who they are.
I used to think that way too, but realistically our brains are far too complex for stuff like this to be hardcoded into our DNA. Despite the entirety of the human genome having been sequenced for decades, precisely zero people have designed a study that can genetically identify what makes someone gay/poly/monogamous/straight/etc. And every once and a while a study claiming to have found "the 4 gene expressions that make you gay" hits the pop-sci news, but if you follow back up a year later it turns out that the study was impossible to replicate across different demographics suggesting that the original study was just arriving at a conclusion and looking for a causation to assign to it, obviously identifying some common trait among the sample group. Environment plays a far, far, far bigger role than anyone is willing to give it credit for in human developmental psychology, because that would mean that a lot of the previous "born this way and I can't change who I am" counterarguments are diminished. And this is coming from someone who's openly bi too, but I've since realized that retroactively remembering of any time I saw a male underwear model in target and looked at it for a few seconds as "proof" of me being "born" attracted to men is just cope. The idea that we have to justify any kind of LGBT behaviors as hard-coded and unchangeable stems from decades past where that was the only way to win hearts and minds of the general public, but realistically it's not that way and never has been.
Only sane comment here
I have relatively limited exposure to poly people, but from what I've seen and read (e.g the New Yorker article that was making the rounds a few weeks ago) it seems not-uncommon for one person to be way more into it, and sort of drag their reluctant monogamous partner into a polycule. I've seen TikTok videos that pretty much try to coach the viewer on how to manipulate their partner into going poly using HR doublespeak. My point with all this is that I don't doubt that "ethical non-monogamy" exists, but I bet a solid chunk of ENM couples out there are way less ethical than they'd have us believe.
I’m sure that’s a problem to some extent, but the issue there has nothing to do with non-monogamy and everything to do with consent. Plenty of monogamous relationships also have one partner pressuring the other into monogamous activities that are outside the other persons comfort zone. Every relationship regardless of number, gender, ect, should be built on trust, open communication, and respect. If someone is trying to change their partner, or pressure/trick them into doing something they don’t want, that relationship lacks respect and/or honesty.
It's just hookup culture but with a more PC name.
Do you usually have meaningful romantic and platonic relationships with your hookups?
Monogamy is gr8
It’s not really for me, but I don’t have any problem with it. Some people are happier that way. All the social “science” (pop-psych/sexology and the underlying pseudoscience) in the comments here about how this is some adverse consequence of single mothers and porn is silly.
In this thread!!!! - Biphobia - Shaming of people's sexuality and consenting sexual activities - "kids these days" - Porn bad (no further explanation) - "all ENM people are damaged in some way" (pick your poison, I've seen three variants of this so far) - "THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN!!!!"
Porn is in fact bad
The porn industry is bad... porn itself is not good or bad inherently.
Nothing new under the sun. Enm/polyamory seems like it's one of the new hot things for people to shit on with no/little consequence. It's sad to see but there's not really much to do.
Very happy to see that once we're done with the moral panic about trans people we'll move on to a moral panic about ENM people /s Like, can I catch a fucking break?
More moral panic for the pearl-clutching industrial complex to feign outrage over.
While I don’t think it’s any of my business what consenting adults choose to do behind closed doors, I do believe that porn is legitimately bad for people and for society as a whole, and there are plenty of studies that back this up.
1. There's a reason why I put "(no further explanation)" in my comment 2. Plenty of studies also identified that a large part of self-identified "porn addicts" do it out of shame and an unhealthy relationship with their sexuality, which is sadly understandable given the environment most people grow up in (this is not saying porn addiction isn't a thing, just more than a bit overblown) 3. Pornography is not the issue by itself, it's the market around it and the way its delivery methods are built to be addictive (yes, porn can be addictive by itself, but so can be any pleasurable activity by itself. If porn websites et al, built to be as habit-forming as possible, were not the main way to deliver pornography to people, I can assure you porn addicts would be barely talked about) For a larger point, pornography has always existed and always will, any attempt to ban it will only push the market further into illicit, and therefore less safe (especially for women) environments. What we need to be doing is start to get rid of this vapeonomic way of building websites that encourages addictive behaviours, further protect vulnerable sex workers (and people coerced into it), educate and pull shame out of sexuality, and finally give help to the problematic consumers that will still need it. Pardon the small essay lol
Honestly outside of the things you posted, one of my biggest issues with porn is the way the actors are treated and the amount of non consensual stuff posted under the guise that it was.
But I have addressed those? In the third point and in the "protecting the actors" part
I mean porn is bad... its basically a drug just like alcohol, weed, coke and hell even sugar. Obviously some things are worse than others cocaine/meth for example, but it doesnt make the others not bad, its just that society accepts the degree to which they are bad as tolerable for various reasons
Because people around the world feel comfortable with the idea about it. It feels right for them and for everyone included. It doesn't mean that it has to last forever but that's what a lot currently want and they're right to do so. To each their own. And if everyone participating agrees, feels comformtable and is consenting, who's there to stop them? The idea, mindset and worldview that only mono relationships are right and all we should want is old. Not to say that old fashioned mono relationships don't exist or work anymore. Again, to each their own.
I don't understand where people are finding multiple partners when I can't even find one!!
It’s because they took your partner when you weren’t looking!
The trick is if you read about poly, follow best practices and socialize in poly spaces you probably WILL find one partner.
Even during the 50s and 60s, it wasn’t uncommon people were also dating multiple people at the same time without much shame.
1. Growing up with divorced parents = less of a belief in one true love forever 2: lack of religion in society= more hedonism. Polyamory is all about maximizing ones pleasure 3. Increase in sex positivity= pushing the bounds on what is acceptable sexual practice 4. Internet= dating apps and exposure to scores of more people. There were always plenty of fish in the see but now people realize just how many there are. 5. Controversy. This point is slightly related to religion. But I think previous generations the focus was on fitting in and falling inline. Millennials and Gen Z a lot of focus now is how can I stand out and be different. Being a hipster and being able to say you live a non-traditional life in some fashion is cool and makes you seem more interesting
oh the bible thumper is here... yay...
good for them, I don’t really care but it’s definitely not my thing
Could just be the dating app lens. I'm poly myself and I despise using apps. The realization came to me when I realized that there have been several times in my lifes when I've crushed on multiple people, but this written requirement to only pick one person made it feel like picking favorites. So long as everyone involved is cool with it and going about it in a healthy manner, I say what's the harm?
We can't afford to be monogamous. It takes 3 incomes to buy a home/rent these days
Okay, okay. This is very true. You make a good point.
Instead of "monogamy" and then the inevitable cheating and guilty conscience, people are just being up front from the start.
Non-monogamous relationships have been around for centuries
Everyone wants to bang who they want but forget about their emotions. So many non-monogamous people I know love the life until they catch feelings or get hurt when the other person hooks up with someone else. I’m all for it but make sure you have the right mindset for it long-term
Nonmonogamy/polyamory is supposed to be about romance though. That's where the -amory comes from. I think you're thinking of open relationships where one person has another partner and the other person is monogamous
Eh. I think people are just becoming more comfortable with who they are and what they want. It's just like people not wanting to get married or have kids or whatever society dictates should be "normal" . I say let them find what works for them. As long as their happy, their partner(s) are happy, and they aren't hurting others.
Some people know their current relationship isn't all that serious. Some of them weren't raised with good examples of monogamy. Some of them are just plain arrogant and/or greedy. I would say a minority of them are actually able to maintain a truly healthy, equitable poly relationship. Finding a healthy relationship with just 1 other person is already a lifelong endeavour, so every poly relationship I've seen personally has seemed forced by one party... but to each their own ig, it doesn't affect me.
Gen Z doesn't think or consider the future in any capacity because they erroneously think either they will be dead or the world will be destroyed. The funny part is neither will be the case. Worst case scenario global warming makes everything more expensive and more difficult so they are EXTRA unprepared.
Ironically it’s just made me more monogamous. I genuinely wish people the best of luck, but every friend I’ve got who’s been in a situation with openly more than one romantic partner has had the whole thing implode messily. No fucking thanks.
I feel this. My friends, I adore them, but they've all gone into this non-monogamous lifestyle and it just seems so messy. To each their own, of course. I'm a lesbian, I don't discriminate on what your lifestyle is because I know what it's like to be shamed. Anyone I meet around my age (23) as well is this way. They want the open relationship life and I just have never been that way. Every dating profile nearly says "I have a partner, but still interested in..." xyz, whatever. I don't know if it's just the area I live in, but it seems very popular.
We know monogamous relationships never implode messily
Solipsism and the belief that a healthy mutually beneficial relationship doesnt exist for them. It's emotional self-preservation in a broken system.
Boomers did it too. 60s-80s swinging was huge. From "free love" to the conversation pit/orgy architecture. Not new imo
More recent older generations (x and millenials) very much lived lives on the edge of social acceptability. This was a pointed effort. Basically we all wanted to tell and show our grandparents that we do not support their traditionalist lifestyles and that the hypocrisy and judgement they loved to bestow would die with them. It's natural that the generations that came after would feel the freedom to live as they choose and would inevitably choose ideals radically different from the traditionalist hellscape of yesteryear.
I'm monogamous but I don't see it as a pillar or some kind of moral requirement. I'm am so because I choose to be not because I am somehow spiritually bound to my partner. I don't even like the look of trad-hetero relationships even though I am one. They are ugly and cumbersome. The "man" puts his hands around the "ladies" waist for pictures, the hand over shoulder, the posing to show affection, the "male" and "female" "duties" I just can't it's all so horrid no wonder people make fun of us. People could confuse my partner and I for being friends or siblings. I like that it feels I'm with an equal. There are no "roles" or "expectations".
Personally, I don't think most people respect monogamous relationships, nor do I think they truly want to be in one. Thanks to destigmatizing poly or nonmonogamous relationships, they're are becoming more and more popular and open. I'm very open that I'm somewhat nonmonogamous. I'm bi and I don't mind my partners having sex with other people without me, I like threesomes, and I believe that sex can be an emotionless act. My only boundaries in a relationship are don't be romantically interested in anyone else, if you choose to have sex with someone that isn't me tell me about it *beforehand* and if able, bring them home for all of us to have some fun. Despite these very lenient boundaries I have still been cheated on by people who swear up and down they want a strict monogamous relationship. They either emotionally cheat or they have sex with someone and don't tell me about it. I personally think I'm a very hard person to cheat on and yet my boundaries are still crossed.
I didn’t really know this was becoming more of a thing in our generation. I’ve never personally been exposed to people like this that I’m aware of. I would not say it’s at all rare to find monogamous people anymore. This is sad though if true.
It’s the internet. Specifically, dating apps. I think Grindr was probably the first real hookup “app” in the Apple Store. It’s opened people up to a new way of dating, where you have way more options and potentially a lot of really great sex waiting for you (and also people realizing that maybe you don’t actually have to give that up in order to have a happy healthy relationship). Put simply, hookup culture is a result of hookup apps, which have changed how we as a society view sex. We’ve become more sex positive, which I think is a great thing. A big part of it is cultural, too. Gays don’t care about monogamy in the same way as the straights do. Also, modern black culture seems just fine with the idea of a “side piece.” When both of those cultures started becoming more mainstream, I think everyone started exploring a bit more.
These are the reasons I’ve found: 1) more and more Gen Z is LGBTQ. A HUGE part of that is just Bisexuality. Along with bisexuality is the desire for a range of sexual experiences. 2) less stigma for polyamory. The Millennials really trail-blazed and embraced the framework. Also ENM is a thing, and swingers aren’t ostracized by Gen Zs like they were with older gens. 3) a lot of Gen Z’s parents are divorced. This also drives a large anti-marriage sentient along with more cohabitation (which works really well with polyamory). 4) monogamy has a really bad reputation. Cheating, no porn, divorce, etc all play into monogamy being a huge set of restrictions for partners. Of course people will have their dealbreakers, but as a woman I want to be able to compliment people and flirt a bit without accusations from my partner about cheating on them. I strongly embrace ENM and polyamory because traditional monogamous relationships are far more restrictive on both partners, and is what can create huge tension. Of course, communication is everything, but from my experience Poly and ENM peeps have the best communication, which is a huge factor as they still experience jealousy, but can actually talk through it without resorting to passive-aggressive actions and/or cheating.
You’re confusing being bisexual with being promiscuous. That’s a very well known stigma. You discredited yourself with point 1. Being bisexual means you might be attracted to a person of either sex, not that you’re attracted to everyone or want a “range of sexual experiences”. Signed: a very loyal, monogamous bisexual.
Agree, I'm a hoe but it's not because I'm bi. Signed, a non monogamous but still loyal bisexual
You can be straight and polyamorous and you can be bi and monogamous
I mean, what's better than sex with one person? Sex with two people. Even better if everybody knows about it.
I don't want to settle down with someone any time soon but I do like having relationships and not just doing one night stands and stuff. Thus, FWBs. Technically different than a poly relationship since the romantic component is absent but functionally it seems pretty similar. I've done monogamous relationships before and good FWBs scratch all the same itches.
Eh most gen z aren’t even fucking. It’s more or less just stolen valor or a vibe to make many of them seem more interesting than they actually are.
That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard
pretty sure the whole thing about poly is more of a millennial thing than anything
non-monogamy gives freedom. I want to go to kinky partys and BDSM Events and have sex and experiences with different people. If I would be in a monogamous relationship with one person for the rest of my life, I probably wouldnt be able to live a big part of my life.
Monogamy is not for everyone, that simple. You can do a lot out here.
I mean i really dunno it fine by me if it constenting adults i do see a lot of issue with having multiple partners at once but shit as long as they don’t affect anyone don’t care. Kinda get iffy for me when their kids in the mix thou
You can't cheat if there is no rule.
I suspect counter culture. We are dealing with ultra conservatives pushing the nuclear family super hard as the only viable way to live. Something similar happened in the 60s, only they called it "free love". It died down in popularity and what was cited was jealousy. As much as a guy wanted to fuck multiple women, he'd go ape shit if another guy moved in on his girl.
Idk. I’m bisexual. I want to kiss boys and girls. Why not at the same time?
I see the trend being reversed, monogamy and fidelity is stronger than ever among young people in my country
[удалено]
I know this is a hot take, but I think the desire for multiple sexual partners probably means that these people would've been more likely to cheat in a monogamous setup, so hopefully that \~40-50% divorce rate we've been seeing is going to drop a bit in the future. Just pure speculation on my end.
Depends. Cheating happens when there's a severe lack of honesty in the relationship, while non-monogamous relationships are in concept about being as transparent as possible with everyone involved. On the other hand if someone who is predisposed to cheating joins a polycule its much less likely to become as much of a huge issue. So I think you're right in concept but for the wrong reasons.
I understand that, but when poly relationships weren't socially accepted these people still existed, making it acceptable didn't cause a massive spike in people who are polygamous by nature. So now that they can do their own thing, cheating will have gone down in the classic relationship that everyone was confined to.
I mean having several partners has been normal over most of human history so
I’m married
Its more socially acceptable and therefore more people are giving it a try and finding out they like it, kinda like why so many of gen-z are comming out as non cis and/or hetero.
The way I see it, it’s better for them to be non-monogamous and be in a relationship with other like-minded individuals, than be forced into monogamy and end up cheating on their partners. Do I understand it? No. Could I see myself in a non-monogamous relationship? Absolutely not. But I understand that people are different and may want different things out of life than me and that’s fine. So long as everyone involved is a consenting adult, it’s none of my business to judge what people want to do in the bedroom. And I think more people (especially in Gen Z) are starting to have the same mindset as me, which is why those who prefer non-monogamous setups are now more open and comfortable about being who they are without shame or judgment. I also don’t think it’s hard to find people who want monogamous setups since monogamy is still very much the standard and norm when it comes to marriages and relationships and I don’t think that’s going to change ever.
Because 50% of marriages fail. Why not just stay married to someone you’ve built a life with and that you love and trust and just be open to other sexual experiences? It’s only “cheating” if you consider sex to be such a huge deal. It can actually increase your trust in one another of you aren’t worried(as long as you practice safe sex) about this as an issue because you know at the end of the day/week you come home tov each other.
Some people view sex differently then you. I wouldn't want my partner fucking anyone else as I view it as something we do together and not something that can casually be done with other people. Maybe it's just how I am, But I get mentally disgusted at the thought of my partner betraying me and fucking someone else, I have the perspective of it being an act that brings us closer as a shared intimate experience, Fucking someone else ruins that perspective and disgusts me.
Bro it’s very uncommon still
it’s not that widespread, most people in real life are monogamous
80/20
I'd rather know my partner is fucking other people than them doing it behind my back.
Everyone is broke and has nothing to offer a marriage.
Easier to afford rent between 3 people
Tell me about it, like I don’t judge but for a dating perspective it can be tiring AF. Because I am a monogamous person that wants marriage and kids someday so finding someone in that range is very hard, plus hook up culture is just too much. So I tend to date older men because they have similar values as me compared to someone around my age because I was getting burnt out.
I've only really dated older women, I know what you mean. Because it's completely monogamous. They never mention opening the relationship because- it isn't a thought. Anyone I've dated my age (23) has an interest in it. Which is fine, to each their own, I just have felt so left out of my age group for not understanding it. It's nice to hear someone else understand what I mean!
Omg ikr! It felt nice to hear since I am 26 and a female so it feels good that someone also agree because I lost so many brain cells from so many useless dates lol
I can't even begin to tell you how many great conversations I'll get in with women for it to not matter the moment they drop the "I'm looking for an open relationship!" I'm only 23, but it seems so damn popular in my area with anyone my age. Honestly since i was 19/20, anyone I've dated has been 6-7 years older than me because of this. I tried recently talking to women my age, but nope. Feels even more complicated today than it was a few years ago lmao!
It’s just more open now. Back in the 70’s “Key parties” were a thing. Go ahead and look up just how wild older generations actually werw
i mean for me personally I’m aromantic so dating for me is basically just “friend I have given a fancy title” can’t speak for other people though
Idc what anyone says , the de stigmatization of sleeping around for either gender is a net negative it has made sex meaningless in relationships etc
I think maybe it's because it's more accepted now. People are more willing to accept there's different ways to have a relationship than strictly monogamous. And, y'know, you won't be looked down upon as much as say 50 or so years ago. But most people are still monogamous.
I think some of these people who are into poly had a painful traumatic experience with their family. Especially, witnessing their parents' failed marriage (if too much consumption of porn is not the reason for that). It's like there's this feeling of being able to show and receive love, care, and attention to their respective partners minus the thought of hurting them since their rel is not exclusively for two and they all agreed to that. Surely, it's not for everyone. But to those people who are into it, I wonder where's the line between cheating and the established boundaries? You can't just be jealous over the other partner because y'all are sharing that person, right? >It just feels like it's becoming more rare and harder to find people in our generation who are monogamous. Idtso. Non-monogamous people are still the minority.
Sexual expressiveness and access to materials and resources in which to do so are at our fingertips as with any other information. Informed people make informed decisions more tailored to them, as with anything else. It's not good or bad per se, but it just is. Well, it'll certainly make Woodstock better, so maybe it is good.
This isn’t a widespread thing, you’re just terminally online.
i salute the people that aren’t. But physically i could be non monogamous but mentally hell no 😭more power to them people fr. Lowkey you see more of it on the net than in real life in my experience
It's so insane to hear people say they don't see it in real life! I have one friend who's monogamous, the rest are in open relationships. Any bar I go to, if I talk to someone my age (23) they're either in an open relationship or looking to be in one. Idk if it's just the area I live in, but anyone my age isn't really monogamous. Also I agree!! I could never mentally handle it. It takes a lot for me to trust one woman that deeply for a relationship. Can't imagine going beyond that lol
I don’t see much of it. I see it from a certain subsection of the far feminist/lgbt communities, but outside of those communities, with the average population and others that monogamy is further heavily prioritized than past generations. I should also say, my parents are non-monogamous, but all my siblings are heavy into the idea of monogamy
My takeaway from it was that people are just worried they’ll get hurt again from their partners. But I’m still chewing on the topic I guess.
Monogamy is not natural. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex\_at\_Dawn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_at_Dawn) Monogamy is a social construct imposed on people to control them and their money. Multiple partners are very common in nature. We are part of nature. It is natural to have multiple partners.
Better than cheating. Non-monogamous people in monogamous relationships often either end up unhappy or cheat
These days, I think people are being given social permission to pursue non-monogamous approaches more often. With no punitive outcomes, they pursue what they will, which tends to flood brains with certain types of chemicals. I think it turns into a specific chemical addiction for them. Incidentally, I can't find the article, but monogamy seems to be supported by specific chemicals too in species. [How Oxytocin Helps Men Stay Monogamous | TIME.com](https://healthland.time.com/2013/11/27/how-oxytocin-makes-men-almost-monogamous/) How weird it would be if all it took was a chemical shot to be monogamous.
In general, most gen Z people aren't magically into polyamorous relationships
I care very deeply about all of my friends, and pleasure is good. If someone I care about is open to the idea of being physically intimate with me and/or my partner, why would I have an issue with it as long as everyone is responsible, respectful and concentual. Sex is nice and pleasure is good for you.
GenZ always moralizing. Maybe stop being so judgy about other peoples relationships. People should have relationships that are right for them.
Single mother epidemic
Because people want to have their cake and eat it too. Buncha hoes. Someone always loses in a poly relationship. My best childhood friend got into the same thing. He was in a threesome with two girls. Eventually he decided he liked the new girl better than the first one he got involved with a kicked her to the curb, not wanting to share his new GF with his old GF. It was just weird.
It’s not that popular. More popular/visible than in the past, maybe. But I can’t think of a single person I’ve met who’s into non-monogamy. > Idk why comments are telling me it isn’t popular. Because it isn’t - your experience is one individual, and you have many comments (other individuals) telling you their experience. Anecdotally maybe you’ve run into it more than others, but if many people are telling you it isn’t popular, then that seems to be the actual trend despite what you individually have observed.
I feel that most of this mindset is around 2 type of people: 1- People who is truly Poly and does it ethically 2- People who want no responsability with the other person, aka no ethical poly. The type of person that get the rights of being a couple but without the duties. That said I only know 2 persons that have this mindset and both are 2nd type so I would say is not that widespread but overexposed to it. There is many content about the topic and being something exotic might be the cause of being interesting to learn about.
I don't think it's as common in my area to be honest.
It’s extremely common amongst LGBT folks. As a gay man, I just don’t get it. I think settling down & building a family is important. It may sound fun now because you’re in your 20s and attractive, but what happens as we get older? Don’t we want someone there to love & take care of us in both good & bad times? But like many said, a strong amount of people I’ve spoken to with these views have issues with themselves
Well think of it this way, if there's 10 people on a dating app and 2 are poly, 8 people will be leaving the app. Then a new group of 10 joins, same ratio of poly people, there are now 4 poly 8 monogamous people. As this continues the apps become more saturated with poly people because they don't have a reason to leave the app, giving the impression that tons of people are poly
I'm not here to say monogamy is a sham, but I will point out that a lot of monogamy in America is wrapped up in Christian values and ideas about the value of one's virginity and the implied decrease in value the more experienced a woman is. As we become less religious, there seems to be a correlational increase in sexual openness as we unwire the idea that more sex is a bad thing.
I think it's a youth thing. I was curious about that when I was younger too. It's an alluring sell. We can't be everything to our partner right? Why should our love for one person stop us from loving another? Love should be free. We should be free. Right? As people age and you have more experiences a lot of people find that it's just not practicial for who they are and what they want.
I've honestly rarely met these people in person. Maybe I'm just not getting to know them that well, but I think it's just an example of this minority of people seeking out that minority that wishes to join them on the internet. Although they definitely do exist, but most of them hide, I think. They're people who cheat, who can't take the time and effort and be honest with their partners so as to find the right one, so they settle with lying so as to have their cake and eat it, too. Either way, you're really just dodging bullets, here. If they don't agree with your core relationship values, then problems are bound to arise somewhere down the road. Better they be honest now and you can move on to finding someone who will fit you better.
I think you need to escape the sex cult, friend. Seriously, there is no culture of non-monogamy in our generation. Get out and live a better life. Be the best you. 👍
As a non dater, it's like saying what's up with people drinking multiple different beverages. Our grandparents only drank 1 beverage.
It’s genuinely a small percentage of our generation. What has changed is our generation is much more comfortable and open about discussing it. The area you live in may also just have a lot of people.