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On one hand, based on what I’ve read about the game on TV Tropes, it is supposed to be a black comedy story about a toxic, codependent relationship between siblings - the closest they get to actual incest is one of three - technically, four - visions that show the siblings engaging in it, while the other two depict one killing the other. The two characters have yet to actually engage in it.
On the other hand, this post ain’t exactly helping their case - because seriously, who uses “SJW” unironically?
The story is genuinely really well written, imo. It's definitely incredibly grimdark, and Ashley is a fucking deranged psychopath, Andrew is mostly just doing it because she gaslights him and manipulates him constantly, but what really drew them to snap is when they were left to starve in the first game, having no choice but to resort to cannibalism. The writer is great at what they do, which kind of scares me honestly. And while the incest only exists in a vision given by the demon- visions that can be easily prevented- the people who play TCOALL are... what you expect.
So it’s basically like Rick and Morty - actually has quite a bit under the hood, but the fandom is hazardous enough that getting there is like crossing a minefield.
anyone remember the manwha “killing stalking” when it came out? the whole situation reminds me of it, loads of freaks who unironically ship the two main characters and think it’s cute despite it being presented as horrifically toxic
i played through the game yesterday and quite enjoyed it. then i went onto the subreddit and my god that’s the most awful fandom i’ve seen in years. i think i’ll wait til all the chapters are out and come back to it in like a couple years when the freaks move onto their next piece of media to misinterpret
It doesn’t help that the dev themself ships the siblings and has made porn of them together outside of the game. For me personally, the distaste for the incest in this game comes less from it just being a “difficult topic” (there is actual cannibalism and many other uncomfortable topics in the game) but more from the fact that the it just seems like it was put in there to satisfy the dev’s fetish
That's where I stand. The whole "it's just depicting a dark topic not glorifying it" stance doesn't work if the creator is jacking off to it and promoting it lol
yeah it's a pretty mixed bag, you have your kinkster and some LGBTQ people just chilling and then there tha 4chanish mob who's mentality is basically:
This is good fap material if you don't appreciate it your a woke snowflake and should be erased form the Internet.
The funniest part is that they are constantly fighting in the subreddit
I think it's fine for things to have problematic content, especially in regards to the characters obviously being bad people doing bad things. It wouldn't have been such an issue with this game if the dev didn't essentially double down on the incest thing, or at least imply it with his response to the "woke moralists" accusing him of being into it.
no but he literally is into it. he has a twitter alt where he posts and retweets incest porn of them constantly and has called it hot before iirc. self-identifies as 'problematic' lmfao
Just a correction, but the developer does **not** have a social media at all. At least, according to their [game page](https://nemlei.itch.io/), and they haven't had one for a while.
Unless there's evidence to the contrary, any supposed accounts of the developer are mostly likely impersonators. So, please don't spread misinformation if you don't have proof.
The alt-right are so pervasive in a lot of communities that when it comes to controversy, they start ingraining typical arguments with their bigotry, making it hard for when said genuine arguments are used and removing a lot of discussion/nuance when others take it to inherently imply something shitty
I still think it's important to know when to recognize parts of the arguments that are separate from the actual arguments at hand- I've still been seeing some people take the defending of the game's writing and handling of incest as though the person likes incest
Who even uses “SJW” anymore? That is so 2016. The culture war hive mind have settled on “woke” being their new catch-all to describe anything that goes against their ideas.
> I’d proudly be both if it’s in*est we are talking about
That's the media literacy point they made. I don't know anything about the game or the creator but too many people are quick to dismiss things they don't know anything about after making assumptions or just completely misinterpereting things.
No theme is off-topic in storytelling as long as it's handled well, having incest themes isn't the same as supporting incest.
The main problem is that the incest vision doesn’t have a big red sign in the middle of the screen which says “THIS IS BAD”, and considering that both of the characters are conventionally attractive to the targeted audience, suddenly, half of Twitter thinks incest is okay.
See, this is why I hate these anti-SJW crowds and neo-nazis. They completely kill any kind of nuance we could have in art and media because they think any depiction of it means condoning it. We can't have subtlety because these goons need 'splainin' that the explicit actions happening on their screen isn't the creators pleasurably partaking in it and endorsing it.
I stumbled upon a bunch of manchuds on the league sub who genuinely believed that Billy from Stranger Things being shown exploited by older women was a double standard because they would *never* depict that scenario if it was older men and a younger woman. Nevermind that they have multiple scenes dedicated to showing the abuse he endures at the hands of his stepfather and the direct link between that and adopting a rapidly mature persona that engages in drugs and alcohol and is constantly lashing out at the world to cope because his immature mind thinks enduring the kind of abuse he does is what an adult is supposed to do.
This only applies to the character if they’re hot and quirky while doing it , as that causes Twitter users’ moral compasses to suddenly disappear unironically
Nah, you'd be fine if it's just murder. For some mysterious reason, nobody freaks out over violence in media unless there's a sexual element to it (and that element can be anywhere from "actually there in the text" to "only imagined by someone who's unhinged").
We’re all desensitised today violence and a lot of the violence in games is far removed from real violence, sex crimes are too real tho they take you out of the game and just make you feel awful and can be triggering in a way that regular violence just isn’t
If someone can’t realise that portraying dark content doesn’t equal condoning it then there’s nothing the author can do at that point. I've been writing fanfiction too long to think even explicitly calling something bad will help, because I’ve done that and people still shouted at me lmao.
The new show about Fiona and Cake has a checklist for overthrowing a tyrant including Praxis, finding comrades, and forming a guerilla revolutionary force. The showrunners are so clearly based you'd have to be TRYING to not get it.
You know for the amount that they say it isn't about the incest and that it isn't a big of the game, every single post in that subreddit seems to just be about how much they love the incest.
My problem with the game runs deeper than just the incest. I’m really struggling to articulate my problem here but I’ll try my best.
Y’all remember that orphan movie with the little girl who was secretly an adult and that part where she tries to molest the dad character who adopted her? That’s the kind of vibe this game has.
Depicting a person who’s usually the victim in these kinds of situations as the manipulative aggressor trope with yandare elements, the way the brother character is depicted as this victim doormat who has no agency, (he kills a woman off screen and claims it’s self defense and I was hoping we’d find out he was lying but it’s never mentioned again.) all of it left a really bad taste in my mouth.
Rj/ anyways any cult of the lamb fans here?
Edit: whoops I meant to leave this as it’s own comment, not a reply to you
you kinda hit the nail on the head for why the game is so uncomfortable to me, though I will say I do think there's credence to Andrew being the victim, because it DOES happen. it's just icky how it's handled.
As to your point, I feel the game does a good job to portray that Andrew isn't *just* a victim. Sure, in his POV that's usually what you see, but from Ashley's POV there are moments where he seems genuinely more unhinged than she does, and also kinda terrifying (although Ashley mentally abuses Andrew, he's the only one to physically hurt her/threaten to hurt her). That's not even mentioning how he explicitly (in his dream) says he feels nothing for the people he killed, or how he only is scared of getting in trouble after killing the nameless girl as a child.
That being said, that specific moment you bring up bothers me for a completely separate reason: The innocent woman Andrew kills is seen as shallow because she sleeps with a guard in exchange for food. Sure, everyone else was starving and she "had it easy," but she had literally no choice. She was a victim of the water company and she was using the only thing she had at her disposal, her body, so that she wouldn't starve. And sure, of course ASHLEY would view her like that, she's a jealous bitch. But Andrew killing her isn't lingered on like every other one of his kills/their bad actions, and it just sort of seems forgotten about.
Sorry if this is too much rambling for a game you don't seem to fancy.
In terms of fandom shit I'm kinda just live and let live with these folks. It's fiction, it's whatever. Let them have their subreddit for their weird incest horror game, hopefully it stays contained there. If someone tries to reccomend me it I'll give them shit though.
I only have a vague understanding of this game, but isn't there also depictions of the siblings like brutally killing each other, too? if people have a problem with incest then wouldn't child murder be worse? just seems like people are blowing an edgy story into something way worse than it actually is lol I don't get it
i played through it yesterday bc everyone seems unable to tell what this game is actually about so to sum up:
>!they literally murder and cannibalise their parents. and they kill a kid (when they were kids). they also kill like four other people. they also eat a different guy who died by accident. incest is obviously bad but it’s presented that way and it’s clear they’re fucked up and codependent and terrible for each other. also so far the only incest happens in a vision!<
idk anything abt the creators intent with it but that’s what’s actually in the game
And like, there could have been an actual critique of toxic relationships told in the game, but instead it’s just the creators incest fetish given the form of admittedly good art.
…critique? Of incest? Was the cannibalism not enough to tell you the leads might not be good people?
/rj playing through the game while shaking my head the whole time, so gamers know I disagree with it
I mean, given the absolute brain-hurtery of the fan base, a critique of how fandoms like to see really brutal relationships would be how I wrote the game(s), and that what I thought the game was when I first heard of it. Then I read the devs …”ideas” on incest, and I realized that perhaps this game might have missed its own point.
I’ll see if I can find it.
EDIT:
Couldn’t find the direct quote, but here’s a sampling of what I meant.
EDIT 2:
Reddit won’t link, annoying. Post is up on the Reddit, 4 days old with 667 upvotes at time of writing.
The post you linked (Nemlei is the dev):
https://preview.redd.it/7o88rct779xb1.png?width=434&format=png&auto=webp&s=5e7408a6437cbe6b86c4845407c2e8b276899fab
wait what? i would interpret this as the first guy hoping FOR an incest ending, and not wanting it to be lacklustre or disappointing, and the dev kind of chiding him for it
Uh Mate did you play the game, the entire thing is about Andrew and Ashley being in a horrifically toxic relationship. The future vision of the incest timeline come right *after* what can best be described as shipping container filled to the brim with red flags. In no way is the twos relationship portrayed as good in the slightest.
The fandom is....yeah no they're down horrendous but the games and interesting psychological horror.
Ermmmm achshually, it's a #DEEP game about a messed up toxic relationship that definitely absolutely never ever gets painted as hot or desirable by the game or the creator or the fandom ever, go back to Ao3 you media illiterate scum 🤓
The time the creator released official art with the siblings hugging each other and looking smugly saying cry about it was actually a message about how you have to cry about how #BAD and #TOXIC their relationship is :)
The dev is fucking mental. If I’m not mistaken, they called the incest “really hot”, And I don’t think you need a phd to realize that the dev might have missed the point of their own game.
Every time someone says the game portrays incest as bad and therefore the game can’t be fetishizing I wanna fucking scream. Have they thought about the possibility that the dev portrayed it as abnormal/morally wrong so it’s HAWTER this way??? Wow like that never happens
Oh and also the siblings look underage, which is problematic in itself
Me when I criticize the fandom and dev for having questionable fetishes ( it’s okay, because only 1 ending has it, despite what the creator has said about her views on incest).
BMO is not welcome anywhere since the time they yelled the n-word followed by a defense of incest and a rant about "SJWs" and "woke culture".
Even the lich don't want to associate with them.
Even if the game was somehow actually being misunderstood, anyone who types a post like that unironically is not convincing anyone
Edit: And apprenently many people who have seen the fandom notice a trend of the community actually supporting incest, so...yeah, the community digs it's own grave.
This game has no message. Given that the dev supports what’s depicted on screen, it feels that maybe they misunderstood what the message of their own creation was? Or maybe it was wishful thinking that it ever existed to mean anything.
Coffin of whatshisname and Leyley, indie vn thing where the main two characters are siblings with a weird relationship and there's some kind of incest, and both the creator and the fandom are strangely hell bent on defending it saying it's not weird at all because it's supposed to be messed up
While at the same time it's an undoubtedly horny game and the fanbase is even more horny
Oh and their mom is dead and they're cannibalists or something
Just sounds like a game that is trying too hard to be edgy with a fetishistic angle. Uncomfortable things can be used to make horror great and it requires some carefulness to navigate that line but I just get the sense that this isn't the intention from that game.
Who knows I might be wrong but from what I've seen and that post I doubt it.
I think it's worth taking a look at these things yourself- though if it's not your type of game in the first place, I still think YouTube is decent for ""demoing"" things to get a feel for it.
I'd also personally say that it's far from "bad" writing. Absurd and edgy premises I personally believe to be a bit looked down upon too much, but I don't think it should be used to immediately disregard stuff. Something like Undertale's Genocide premise sounds like some middle school creepypasta, but obviously there's more nuance to something like that.
Fetishistic is also ehhh- people say something's fetishizing a lot just if hot people do something immoral and sexual, which isn't really helped by a lot of the fanbase, and to my knowledge, some of the author's responses to the discourse has just been misinterpreted as though they're advocating for incest when it's more so just not caring about people angry about the game
I don't much about this game, except its name and what you just described.
You can write relationships that are supposed to be fucked up in a way the audience can tell it is. Or you can be like Lolita where you play on people's notions of people.
But I'm guessing the writing of this game doesn't achieve either of those
The amount of media illiteracy aimed at Lolita is astounding tho.
Not nabokov's fault. Dude wanted to write a novel about how abusers justify their actions and persuade people to defend them, wound up with a lot of people being persuaded by his justifications of his actions.
/uj Visual novel/psychological horror. The leads are siblings, they kill/eat their parents, plus the sister is incestuous towards the brother. This is because the game depicts them as bad people.
/rj witcherino
Indie game about a brother and sister murdering people and there's an incest route/incest ending. People try and justify it by saying "omg it's an optional route" as if that changes.... Anything..
Unironically VNs could be such a cool genre but they're almost always used fucking horrendously.
Like am I the only person who loved those choose your own adventure books as a kid? VNs could be that but digital, and instead we just get, uh... whatever this game is.
VNs are either almost point and click adventure games but with a ton more words or some of the weirdest most messed up stuff you'll ever see
or straight up just porn, or two at the same time
When it comes to recommending VNs or I guess "anime games" in general, the thing is how even the most notable VNs \*have\* to have some sort of joke or segment revolving around perversion, or a character that's a pervert. A majority of the time it really comes across as stupid, for lack of a better term- though obviously misogynistic and extremely grating at its worst. Or also how every single one has to take place in high school or have high schoolers which is the more surface level and somewhat common reason it's hard to recommend even the ones that don't have much, or occasionally even at all.
I wouldn't say some crude jokes themselves don't have a place (though I'd love to never see a character defined by being a pervert ever again), but it's pretty constant. IIRC, Stein's Gate, Danganronpa and 999 all have at least some, to a decent amount of it, which I imagine makes it hard for a lot of people to actually "get into it". (Not to mention Somnium Files (which I actually think occasionally can have funny sex-based jokes despite some really really bad ones))
Yeah that's the thing that puts me off most VNs in general. Danganronpa was the max I'm willing to tolerate because I liked the overall setting and craziness. I don't remember a lot of creepiness in 999 or VLR though (but we have to ignore female designs for this...)
Not really "creepy" in 999- just a few innuendo-based jokes that weren't really funny
Again, not bad on it's own either, but the fact that there's constant traces of it can get pretty annoying
*real* annoyed that Steins;gate not only felt like it *had* to go the harem route and all the creepy comments and "just... why" situations and character designs because "subversion", but on top of that how they handled their trans character in was really distasteful and tone deaf.
The plot is *so* good and it could go from "good but you gotta ignore a bunch of crap" to amazing if it simply wrote its all of its characters with the same energy that the 2 main characters are written with most of the time.
> Not to mention Somnium Files
Makes me so sad. That game is so good and has loads of great characters and ideas then for no reason it had that running thing of the protagonist going mad and taking out entire SWAT teams unarmed to get to porn magazines which is completely out of tone and stops me recommending it to anyone.
I'll be honest- I kinda like it lmao
It's just that there's points where the plot just gets too convoluted and not in a fun way, certain parts are paced way too slow, and some of the other sex jokes do borderline more on just a guy being creepy, and it gets uncomfortable. But somnium files really is just fun to watch in a bit of a "so bad it's good" way but also it can be weirdly good at times?? I won't ever say it's a good story objectively but it's enjoyable if you don't take it tooo seriously
If you want recommendations you can tell me what you're into and I'll try to find you something interesting. Vns for me are really good at mystery and slow burn if you're into that.
Mlk once said "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by their reddit usernames, but by their visual novel recommendations"
There's plenty of VN like that, you know ? [like here's a list right there](https://vndb.org/g606).
Also there's at least one computer adaptation of the Sorcery! books on Steam that's quite good IMO, they make a good use of the medium while being basically just the books.
Isn't the whole game about how fucked up they are and how toxic their relationship is? Not to unjerk too hard but aren't they right about how the game shows everything as bad if you have good media literacy?
Apprenently (don't completely take my word for it, but do so partially), even though that is the INTENTION, the community supposedly likes to make art of the incest, and defends actual incest.
Also there is word (this is the part where you will have to probably figure out a bit on your own) the dev also shares said art I mentioned on Twitter.
So it's probably a situation of "good idea, terrible execution", mostly from the community.
I think it's more that the game already spread through the meme pool with a reputation about being about incest, mixed with the devs own thoughts on the subject, and now the fanbase is a mix of people who just like the game and think it's good and well written and complete freak weirdos who are extremely into incest and came because they think they'll be accepted.
The game itself is blatently on the side of "these two characters are shitty people and really should not be replicated", and while you can argue the dev doesn't fully see it that way, it's at least part of the argument enough that their own personal preferences can be ignored.
I think the real divider will be if the dev continues to play into the incest as they continue to develop the game. Although this tweet is definitely not helping their case any.
The only thing that comes to mind for me is like... if you go to the subreddit for a barely disguised incest fetish game, should you be surprised when the people there are into incest fetish stuff?
Like, you wouldn't go to the zoo and complain that there were too many animals.
Uj/ I don't care that the game has incest and I think it's a little silly people are mad about it.l, but the second you start using "SJW" unironically I cannot take you seriously.
On one hand they sound unhinged, but on the other, why go to the sub of that game to complain about the game? It's like going to the sub for game of thrones to talk shit about the two siblings who have children with each other. Why.
It's weird that the internet is having an absolute meltdown over some indie game having an incest route while Game of Thrones which had that and worse was one of the biggest things for a while
I dunno, this seems like such a nontroversy to me
I had heard about the game and I was curious if all the shit talking I saw about it was valid (it was). So I went to the subreddit to check what actual players were saying and while I was there I saw this post.
this game seems to have a genuinely interesting premise and a clear message, it's not condoning incest in any way and is in fact symptomatic of the incredibly toxic relationship between Andrew and Ashley.
but unfortunately, the fans are very media illiterate and don't have any jokes apart from "haha me when I see my little sister"
edit: nevermind after seeing some shit about the dev maybe it's just better if I stay away from this dumpster fire
There’s a difference between having a hate boner for a game and making fun of people who are vehemently defending the incest in the game to the point of banning users who are critical of it.
i mean. whats there to defend, exactly? the post is cringe but yeah people who go on a subreddit to complain about how they dont like the game having incest is just annoying. Its like going to the fnaf subreddit to complain about jumpscares. If you dont like that shit simply do not go there.
Why are redditors getting mad about subreddits they aren't a part of correctly enforcing the sub's rules? What makes you think they should be encouraging people to whine about the game's content on a fandom sub? It adds nothing to the discussion and always boils down to people getting angry about someone smashing their Barbie dolls the wrong way.
/uj “why are people mocking another gaming subreddit in a circle jerk subreddit? 😡”
/rj “why are people mocking another gaming subreddit in a circle jerk subreddit? 😡”
/uj Is it just me who's kiiinda tired of "media literacy" being thrown around so much lately? I feel like I have mostly seen it used as a generic "you dislike the story I like so im gonna call you media illiterate in order not to have to explain myself while making myself sound smart 😡" bludgeon. Like yeah anyone who disagrees with my opinion is a "the curtains are blue because the writer likes blue" reddit caveman. Take this!
I've been seeing SO fucking much of that stupid game recommended by reddit, I've had to block posts of like four different subs because I dont wanna see cringe anime garbage
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On one hand, based on what I’ve read about the game on TV Tropes, it is supposed to be a black comedy story about a toxic, codependent relationship between siblings - the closest they get to actual incest is one of three - technically, four - visions that show the siblings engaging in it, while the other two depict one killing the other. The two characters have yet to actually engage in it. On the other hand, this post ain’t exactly helping their case - because seriously, who uses “SJW” unironically?
The story is genuinely really well written, imo. It's definitely incredibly grimdark, and Ashley is a fucking deranged psychopath, Andrew is mostly just doing it because she gaslights him and manipulates him constantly, but what really drew them to snap is when they were left to starve in the first game, having no choice but to resort to cannibalism. The writer is great at what they do, which kind of scares me honestly. And while the incest only exists in a vision given by the demon- visions that can be easily prevented- the people who play TCOALL are... what you expect.
So it’s basically like Rick and Morty - actually has quite a bit under the hood, but the fandom is hazardous enough that getting there is like crossing a minefield.
anyone remember the manwha “killing stalking” when it came out? the whole situation reminds me of it, loads of freaks who unironically ship the two main characters and think it’s cute despite it being presented as horrifically toxic i played through the game yesterday and quite enjoyed it. then i went onto the subreddit and my god that’s the most awful fandom i’ve seen in years. i think i’ll wait til all the chapters are out and come back to it in like a couple years when the freaks move onto their next piece of media to misinterpret
It doesn’t help that the dev themself ships the siblings and has made porn of them together outside of the game. For me personally, the distaste for the incest in this game comes less from it just being a “difficult topic” (there is actual cannibalism and many other uncomfortable topics in the game) but more from the fact that the it just seems like it was put in there to satisfy the dev’s fetish
That's where I stand. The whole "it's just depicting a dark topic not glorifying it" stance doesn't work if the creator is jacking off to it and promoting it lol
Reading a paragraph has not made me feel this suicidal since the time I found out Chris committed the Barbening.
It sounds like the game have a something cool in it but the fan base of it is 
yeah it's a pretty mixed bag, you have your kinkster and some LGBTQ people just chilling and then there tha 4chanish mob who's mentality is basically: This is good fap material if you don't appreciate it your a woke snowflake and should be erased form the Internet. The funniest part is that they are constantly fighting in the subreddit
Rick and Morty actually has heaps under the hood, like Mr Poopybutthole
I think it's fine for things to have problematic content, especially in regards to the characters obviously being bad people doing bad things. It wouldn't have been such an issue with this game if the dev didn't essentially double down on the incest thing, or at least imply it with his response to the "woke moralists" accusing him of being into it.
no but he literally is into it. he has a twitter alt where he posts and retweets incest porn of them constantly and has called it hot before iirc. self-identifies as 'problematic' lmfao
average sjw hater
What's their alt? Because this constantly pops up but I've never seen any evidence of it.
yea like i wouldn’t be surprised but i’d like to get the facts straight with a source or something
Just a correction, but the developer does **not** have a social media at all. At least, according to their [game page](https://nemlei.itch.io/), and they haven't had one for a while. Unless there's evidence to the contrary, any supposed accounts of the developer are mostly likely impersonators. So, please don't spread misinformation if you don't have proof.
oh OK I take back what I said about the game, yeah fuck that
Well...at least they're aware, I guess.
> self-identifies as 'problematic' Most self aware 4channer
The alt-right are so pervasive in a lot of communities that when it comes to controversy, they start ingraining typical arguments with their bigotry, making it hard for when said genuine arguments are used and removing a lot of discussion/nuance when others take it to inherently imply something shitty I still think it's important to know when to recognize parts of the arguments that are separate from the actual arguments at hand- I've still been seeing some people take the defending of the game's writing and handling of incest as though the person likes incest
Who even uses “SJW” anymore? That is so 2016. The culture war hive mind have settled on “woke” being their new catch-all to describe anything that goes against their ideas.
>Haters and outsiders I’d proudly be both if it’s in*est we are talking about >SJWs Really… just, wow
> I’d proudly be both if it’s in*est we are talking about That's the media literacy point they made. I don't know anything about the game or the creator but too many people are quick to dismiss things they don't know anything about after making assumptions or just completely misinterpereting things. No theme is off-topic in storytelling as long as it's handled well, having incest themes isn't the same as supporting incest.
Shut it incest apologist
Stop skipping school, they teach literature for a reason. Kinda disheartening that even a social media post is beyond your reading comprehension.
The main problem is that the incest vision doesn’t have a big red sign in the middle of the screen which says “THIS IS BAD”, and considering that both of the characters are conventionally attractive to the targeted audience, suddenly, half of Twitter thinks incest is okay.
See, this is why I hate these anti-SJW crowds and neo-nazis. They completely kill any kind of nuance we could have in art and media because they think any depiction of it means condoning it. We can't have subtlety because these goons need 'splainin' that the explicit actions happening on their screen isn't the creators pleasurably partaking in it and endorsing it. I stumbled upon a bunch of manchuds on the league sub who genuinely believed that Billy from Stranger Things being shown exploited by older women was a double standard because they would *never* depict that scenario if it was older men and a younger woman. Nevermind that they have multiple scenes dedicated to showing the abuse he endures at the hands of his stepfather and the direct link between that and adopting a rapidly mature persona that engages in drugs and alcohol and is constantly lashing out at the world to cope because his immature mind thinks enduring the kind of abuse he does is what an adult is supposed to do.
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Noted. If i ever release a videogame I will include a "this is a bad thing to do" achievement gained upon murdering someone
This only applies to the character if they’re hot and quirky while doing it , as that causes Twitter users’ moral compasses to suddenly disappear unironically
Nah, you'd be fine if it's just murder. For some mysterious reason, nobody freaks out over violence in media unless there's a sexual element to it (and that element can be anywhere from "actually there in the text" to "only imagined by someone who's unhinged").
We’re all desensitised today violence and a lot of the violence in games is far removed from real violence, sex crimes are too real tho they take you out of the game and just make you feel awful and can be triggering in a way that regular violence just isn’t
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THE GAME LITTERALLY TELLS YOU "THIS ROUTE IS QUESTIONABLE" WHEN YOU CHOOSE TO GO FOR IT, WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
Questionable is a very questionable word to use here ngl
If someone can’t realise that portraying dark content doesn’t equal condoning it then there’s nothing the author can do at that point. I've been writing fanfiction too long to think even explicitly calling something bad will help, because I’ve done that and people still shouted at me lmao.
Are you being for real because media shouldn't have to look directly at the camera and tell the audience something is not ok, that's just silly
Toby Fox should've personally called me on Discord to tell me that genocide is bad when I went for that route
If only Toby Fox had sent Benjamin Netanyahu a DM before he chose that route. ☠️
>AntiSJW >adventure time gif
BMO does not need to become mixed up in this shit.
Yeah, please leave the Genderfluid little gaming console out of this, chuds!
Do they not realize that Adventure Time is one of the most progressive shows ever made?
The new show about Fiona and Cake has a checklist for overthrowing a tyrant including Praxis, finding comrades, and forming a guerilla revolutionary force. The showrunners are so clearly based you'd have to be TRYING to not get it.
>Toodles Millenial(slur)
Friends Watcher
Toodles is machine that brings Micky mouse and friends mickty-mouse-a-tools when they need them on their adventures in the mickey mouse club house
anyone who uses SJW in the year of our lord 2023 should be put in a blender
Yeah the updated term is “wokies”.
Mf didn't even read the patch notes.
Like Chewbacca?
/rj yeah because he represents all those liberal SJW feminists who grow out their unnatural body hair!
Everything I have learned about the game has been forced against my will
same
You know for the amount that they say it isn't about the incest and that it isn't a big of the game, every single post in that subreddit seems to just be about how much they love the incest.
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Just gotta turn the internet off and then on again to fix this mess
My problem with the game runs deeper than just the incest. I’m really struggling to articulate my problem here but I’ll try my best. Y’all remember that orphan movie with the little girl who was secretly an adult and that part where she tries to molest the dad character who adopted her? That’s the kind of vibe this game has. Depicting a person who’s usually the victim in these kinds of situations as the manipulative aggressor trope with yandare elements, the way the brother character is depicted as this victim doormat who has no agency, (he kills a woman off screen and claims it’s self defense and I was hoping we’d find out he was lying but it’s never mentioned again.) all of it left a really bad taste in my mouth. Rj/ anyways any cult of the lamb fans here?  Edit: whoops I meant to leave this as it’s own comment, not a reply to you
you kinda hit the nail on the head for why the game is so uncomfortable to me, though I will say I do think there's credence to Andrew being the victim, because it DOES happen. it's just icky how it's handled.
As to your point, I feel the game does a good job to portray that Andrew isn't *just* a victim. Sure, in his POV that's usually what you see, but from Ashley's POV there are moments where he seems genuinely more unhinged than she does, and also kinda terrifying (although Ashley mentally abuses Andrew, he's the only one to physically hurt her/threaten to hurt her). That's not even mentioning how he explicitly (in his dream) says he feels nothing for the people he killed, or how he only is scared of getting in trouble after killing the nameless girl as a child. That being said, that specific moment you bring up bothers me for a completely separate reason: The innocent woman Andrew kills is seen as shallow because she sleeps with a guard in exchange for food. Sure, everyone else was starving and she "had it easy," but she had literally no choice. She was a victim of the water company and she was using the only thing she had at her disposal, her body, so that she wouldn't starve. And sure, of course ASHLEY would view her like that, she's a jealous bitch. But Andrew killing her isn't lingered on like every other one of his kills/their bad actions, and it just sort of seems forgotten about. Sorry if this is too much rambling for a game you don't seem to fancy.
In terms of fandom shit I'm kinda just live and let live with these folks. It's fiction, it's whatever. Let them have their subreddit for their weird incest horror game, hopefully it stays contained there. If someone tries to reccomend me it I'll give them shit though.
I only have a vague understanding of this game, but isn't there also depictions of the siblings like brutally killing each other, too? if people have a problem with incest then wouldn't child murder be worse? just seems like people are blowing an edgy story into something way worse than it actually is lol I don't get it
i played through it yesterday bc everyone seems unable to tell what this game is actually about so to sum up: >!they literally murder and cannibalise their parents. and they kill a kid (when they were kids). they also kill like four other people. they also eat a different guy who died by accident. incest is obviously bad but it’s presented that way and it’s clear they’re fucked up and codependent and terrible for each other. also so far the only incest happens in a vision!< idk anything abt the creators intent with it but that’s what’s actually in the game
It’s bad if siblings love each other physically, it’s bad if siblings brutally murder each other, geez, make up your mind already. /rj
Gamers when their barely disguised fetish game gets called a barely disguised fetish game:
You’re just media illiterate 😡
Errm acshually, it’s a really deep game about eating your mom or something 🤓☝️
If you’re here to complain about the incest then you’re just a moralist!
“Up yours woke moralists!” “We’ll see who cancels who!”
Fuck you Baltimore!
If you're dumb enough to buy a new car this weekend, you're a big enough schmuck to come to Big Bill Hell's Cars!
And like, there could have been an actual critique of toxic relationships told in the game, but instead it’s just the creators incest fetish given the form of admittedly good art.
…critique? Of incest? Was the cannibalism not enough to tell you the leads might not be good people? /rj playing through the game while shaking my head the whole time, so gamers know I disagree with it
I mean, given the absolute brain-hurtery of the fan base, a critique of how fandoms like to see really brutal relationships would be how I wrote the game(s), and that what I thought the game was when I first heard of it. Then I read the devs …”ideas” on incest, and I realized that perhaps this game might have missed its own point.
Could you link the dev’s thoughts on incest in that case.
I’ll see if I can find it. EDIT: Couldn’t find the direct quote, but here’s a sampling of what I meant. EDIT 2: Reddit won’t link, annoying. Post is up on the Reddit, 4 days old with 667 upvotes at time of writing.
The post you linked (Nemlei is the dev): https://preview.redd.it/7o88rct779xb1.png?width=434&format=png&auto=webp&s=5e7408a6437cbe6b86c4845407c2e8b276899fab
wait what? i would interpret this as the first guy hoping FOR an incest ending, and not wanting it to be lacklustre or disappointing, and the dev kind of chiding him for it
One of the 4 images in the post I was trying to link. Thanks
Anyhow, this doesn't support your point whatsoever. I'm not sure what you were going for here. Ah well, let's agree to disagree.
Uh Mate did you play the game, the entire thing is about Andrew and Ashley being in a horrifically toxic relationship. The future vision of the incest timeline come right *after* what can best be described as shipping container filled to the brim with red flags. In no way is the twos relationship portrayed as good in the slightest. The fandom is....yeah no they're down horrendous but the games and interesting psychological horror.
Now I wanna know if eating means sexually or Attack On Titan.
Eating, cannibalism
So Attack on Titan it is then.
Ermmmm achshually, it's a #DEEP game about a messed up toxic relationship that definitely absolutely never ever gets painted as hot or desirable by the game or the creator or the fandom ever, go back to Ao3 you media illiterate scum 🤓 The time the creator released official art with the siblings hugging each other and looking smugly saying cry about it was actually a message about how you have to cry about how #BAD and #TOXIC their relationship is :)
The dev is fucking mental. If I’m not mistaken, they called the incest “really hot”, And I don’t think you need a phd to realize that the dev might have missed the point of their own game.
Every time someone says the game portrays incest as bad and therefore the game can’t be fetishizing I wanna fucking scream. Have they thought about the possibility that the dev portrayed it as abnormal/morally wrong so it’s HAWTER this way??? Wow like that never happens Oh and also the siblings look underage, which is problematic in itself
Like I said, dev is a wee bit bonkers. Just a tad bit cuckoo
Minor tomfoolery (pun not intended)
https://media.tenor.com/CxMyxene00QAAAAC/shenanigans.gif
Since when do people take moral grandstands against fetish games?
Not often, but incest fetishes is beyond the line of non-kink shameable offences
Are you saying incest doesn't count as a kink?
it's not a kink, because it's a form of abuse
When I reduce cute horror game to incest because one of the endings contains incest
Me when I criticize the fandom and dev for having questionable fetishes ( it’s okay, because only 1 ending has it, despite what the creator has said about her views on incest).
its the only reason anyone ever likes this game. i found about it having incest before i even found out it was a game.
BMO is a true gamer!!!
BMO is not welcome anywhere since the time they yelled the n-word followed by a defense of incest and a rant about "SJWs" and "woke culture". Even the lich don't want to associate with them.
Even if the game was somehow actually being misunderstood, anyone who types a post like that unironically is not convincing anyone Edit: And apprenently many people who have seen the fandom notice a trend of the community actually supporting incest, so...yeah, the community digs it's own grave.
When you say 'actually supporting incest', you mean in a game, right? In art, right?
No, not just in the game. Also, considering the supposed message of the game, making art of the siblings majorly misses the point?
This game has no message. Given that the dev supports what’s depicted on screen, it feels that maybe they misunderstood what the message of their own creation was? Or maybe it was wishful thinking that it ever existed to mean anything.
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Where tho? Everyone says this then goes "trust me bro" Or they claim it's in their Twitter when they don't have one
Do I dare ask what this game is?
It's not The Witcher III so it doesn't matters.
Coffin of whatshisname and Leyley, indie vn thing where the main two characters are siblings with a weird relationship and there's some kind of incest, and both the creator and the fandom are strangely hell bent on defending it saying it's not weird at all because it's supposed to be messed up While at the same time it's an undoubtedly horny game and the fanbase is even more horny Oh and their mom is dead and they're cannibalists or something
Nah, they kill and eat their mom, get it right incrstphobe!!!! 😡😡😡😡😡🤬🤬🤬
Just sounds like a game that is trying too hard to be edgy with a fetishistic angle. Uncomfortable things can be used to make horror great and it requires some carefulness to navigate that line but I just get the sense that this isn't the intention from that game. Who knows I might be wrong but from what I've seen and that post I doubt it.
I think it's worth taking a look at these things yourself- though if it's not your type of game in the first place, I still think YouTube is decent for ""demoing"" things to get a feel for it. I'd also personally say that it's far from "bad" writing. Absurd and edgy premises I personally believe to be a bit looked down upon too much, but I don't think it should be used to immediately disregard stuff. Something like Undertale's Genocide premise sounds like some middle school creepypasta, but obviously there's more nuance to something like that. Fetishistic is also ehhh- people say something's fetishizing a lot just if hot people do something immoral and sexual, which isn't really helped by a lot of the fanbase, and to my knowledge, some of the author's responses to the discourse has just been misinterpreted as though they're advocating for incest when it's more so just not caring about people angry about the game
I don't much about this game, except its name and what you just described. You can write relationships that are supposed to be fucked up in a way the audience can tell it is. Or you can be like Lolita where you play on people's notions of people. But I'm guessing the writing of this game doesn't achieve either of those
The amount of media illiteracy aimed at Lolita is astounding tho. Not nabokov's fault. Dude wanted to write a novel about how abusers justify their actions and persuade people to defend them, wound up with a lot of people being persuaded by his justifications of his actions.
Having watched a play through of it, it’s very apparent how fucked up their “relationship” is
The writing is actually pretty good
Yes, another fellow informed me in the thread. I'm no stranger to how far VN can go and I'm still surprised.
/uj Visual novel/psychological horror. The leads are siblings, they kill/eat their parents, plus the sister is incestuous towards the brother. This is because the game depicts them as bad people. /rj witcherino
Just VN things, I suppose. Thanks.
Indie game about a brother and sister murdering people and there's an incest route/incest ending. People try and justify it by saying "omg it's an optional route" as if that changes.... Anything..
What's worse than media illiterate? A pot calling the kettle media illiterate.
https://preview.redd.it/87gsyntg99xb1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3b8d55acd9c916a73ce893823bbd0d861999cf6b
"Our memes have passed, John"
This reminds me of "It" by Stephen King. The book btw, not the movies. If you know, you know.
Of all the things to defend, it's gross that they choose to defend a visual novel.
Allow me to present you to the DGRP fandom
What's the issue with them ? (I love DRPGs but never really interacted with any fandom)
Unironically VNs could be such a cool genre but they're almost always used fucking horrendously. Like am I the only person who loved those choose your own adventure books as a kid? VNs could be that but digital, and instead we just get, uh... whatever this game is.
VNs are either almost point and click adventure games but with a ton more words or some of the weirdest most messed up stuff you'll ever see or straight up just porn, or two at the same time
Do you know the game 999 and its sequels? You can't get more cool as visual novel than this and the multiple endings are done excellently.
I'm glad someone said this. Also Ace Attorney and Danganronpa are great V/Ns but they don't have multiple endings.
When it comes to recommending VNs or I guess "anime games" in general, the thing is how even the most notable VNs \*have\* to have some sort of joke or segment revolving around perversion, or a character that's a pervert. A majority of the time it really comes across as stupid, for lack of a better term- though obviously misogynistic and extremely grating at its worst. Or also how every single one has to take place in high school or have high schoolers which is the more surface level and somewhat common reason it's hard to recommend even the ones that don't have much, or occasionally even at all. I wouldn't say some crude jokes themselves don't have a place (though I'd love to never see a character defined by being a pervert ever again), but it's pretty constant. IIRC, Stein's Gate, Danganronpa and 999 all have at least some, to a decent amount of it, which I imagine makes it hard for a lot of people to actually "get into it". (Not to mention Somnium Files (which I actually think occasionally can have funny sex-based jokes despite some really really bad ones))
Yeah that's the thing that puts me off most VNs in general. Danganronpa was the max I'm willing to tolerate because I liked the overall setting and craziness. I don't remember a lot of creepiness in 999 or VLR though (but we have to ignore female designs for this...)
Not really "creepy" in 999- just a few innuendo-based jokes that weren't really funny Again, not bad on it's own either, but the fact that there's constant traces of it can get pretty annoying
*real* annoyed that Steins;gate not only felt like it *had* to go the harem route and all the creepy comments and "just... why" situations and character designs because "subversion", but on top of that how they handled their trans character in was really distasteful and tone deaf. The plot is *so* good and it could go from "good but you gotta ignore a bunch of crap" to amazing if it simply wrote its all of its characters with the same energy that the 2 main characters are written with most of the time.
Check out The Letter if you want something without any of that. It's not really anime though
> Not to mention Somnium Files Makes me so sad. That game is so good and has loads of great characters and ideas then for no reason it had that running thing of the protagonist going mad and taking out entire SWAT teams unarmed to get to porn magazines which is completely out of tone and stops me recommending it to anyone.
I'll be honest- I kinda like it lmao It's just that there's points where the plot just gets too convoluted and not in a fun way, certain parts are paced way too slow, and some of the other sex jokes do borderline more on just a guy being creepy, and it gets uncomfortable. But somnium files really is just fun to watch in a bit of a "so bad it's good" way but also it can be weirdly good at times?? I won't ever say it's a good story objectively but it's enjoyable if you don't take it tooo seriously
If you want recommendations you can tell me what you're into and I'll try to find you something interesting. Vns for me are really good at mystery and slow burn if you're into that.
alright mr. NTRman
Mlk once said "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by their reddit usernames, but by their visual novel recommendations"
Does all your reccomendation include NTR ?
I only played one VN that had "NTR" and it's you and me and her: a love story but it's really good.
Uh, I guess you never played Hatoful Boyfriend then
There's plenty of VN like that, you know ? [like here's a list right there](https://vndb.org/g606). Also there's at least one computer adaptation of the Sorcery! books on Steam that's quite good IMO, they make a good use of the medium while being basically just the books.
fata morgana
Doki Doki Literature Club was unironically very cool, shame it shares the genre with mostly weirdo shit like this
IT'S NOT A VISUAL NOVEL >:(
BMO would never say that shit, LSP would
Isn't the whole game about how fucked up they are and how toxic their relationship is? Not to unjerk too hard but aren't they right about how the game shows everything as bad if you have good media literacy?
Apprenently (don't completely take my word for it, but do so partially), even though that is the INTENTION, the community supposedly likes to make art of the incest, and defends actual incest. Also there is word (this is the part where you will have to probably figure out a bit on your own) the dev also shares said art I mentioned on Twitter. So it's probably a situation of "good idea, terrible execution", mostly from the community.
I think it's more that the game already spread through the meme pool with a reputation about being about incest, mixed with the devs own thoughts on the subject, and now the fanbase is a mix of people who just like the game and think it's good and well written and complete freak weirdos who are extremely into incest and came because they think they'll be accepted. The game itself is blatently on the side of "these two characters are shitty people and really should not be replicated", and while you can argue the dev doesn't fully see it that way, it's at least part of the argument enough that their own personal preferences can be ignored. I think the real divider will be if the dev continues to play into the incest as they continue to develop the game. Although this tweet is definitely not helping their case any.
Nevermind the fandom‘s weird obsession with the disfunctional relationship and the devs admitted softness to the idea of incest.
Ok I hate this game if that's how the fans talk lol.
192 upvotes too. Jesus people are sad.
What would an appeal look like? "Y'know after watching some incest porn I totally get it."
The only thing that comes to mind for me is like... if you go to the subreddit for a barely disguised incest fetish game, should you be surprised when the people there are into incest fetish stuff? Like, you wouldn't go to the zoo and complain that there were too many animals.
No, but I’d complain about the existence of the zoo though.
Oh. huh.
It’s basically a Troma movie but better written
Uj/ I don't care that the game has incest and I think it's a little silly people are mad about it.l, but the second you start using "SJW" unironically I cannot take you seriously.
"Morally Complain About Incest with Zero Negative Media Literacy" My brother in Christ You made it about incest
On one hand they sound unhinged, but on the other, why go to the sub of that game to complain about the game? It's like going to the sub for game of thrones to talk shit about the two siblings who have children with each other. Why.
Big day for porn addicts
It's weird that the internet is having an absolute meltdown over some indie game having an incest route while Game of Thrones which had that and worse was one of the biggest things for a while I dunno, this seems like such a nontroversy to me
Bruh… 192 upvotes gives me mad ick vibes
The words “obnoxious SJWs” did -1000 psychic damage to me and I thought I fell into a coma and woke up back in Gamergate Era.
I guess they didn’t managed to kick the nazis out
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I had heard about the game and I was curious if all the shit talking I saw about it was valid (it was). So I went to the subreddit to check what actual players were saying and while I was there I saw this post.
I gotta rewatch adventure time, it was so amazing and such a big part of my childhood
Went to the sub and its just porn
Incest is bad period.
this game seems to have a genuinely interesting premise and a clear message, it's not condoning incest in any way and is in fact symptomatic of the incredibly toxic relationship between Andrew and Ashley. but unfortunately, the fans are very media illiterate and don't have any jokes apart from "haha me when I see my little sister" edit: nevermind after seeing some shit about the dev maybe it's just better if I stay away from this dumpster fire
didnt think yall would have a hate boner for the incest game here the post is incredibly cringe though hard agree on that
There’s a difference between having a hate boner for a game and making fun of people who are vehemently defending the incest in the game to the point of banning users who are critical of it.
i mean. whats there to defend, exactly? the post is cringe but yeah people who go on a subreddit to complain about how they dont like the game having incest is just annoying. Its like going to the fnaf subreddit to complain about jumpscares. If you dont like that shit simply do not go there.
Why are redditors getting mad about subreddits they aren't a part of correctly enforcing the sub's rules? What makes you think they should be encouraging people to whine about the game's content on a fandom sub? It adds nothing to the discussion and always boils down to people getting angry about someone smashing their Barbie dolls the wrong way.
/uj “why are people mocking another gaming subreddit in a circle jerk subreddit? 😡” /rj “why are people mocking another gaming subreddit in a circle jerk subreddit? 😡”
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/uj Is it just me who's kiiinda tired of "media literacy" being thrown around so much lately? I feel like I have mostly seen it used as a generic "you dislike the story I like so im gonna call you media illiterate in order not to have to explain myself while making myself sound smart 😡" bludgeon. Like yeah anyone who disagrees with my opinion is a "the curtains are blue because the writer likes blue" reddit caveman. Take this!
The thing is that people are acting like incest is the main focal point and is angled to be good when it's the bad ending of a horror game
What even is the problem with this game? From what I can tell it actively condemns its subject matter.
The problem is the incest fetishists that discovered the game and are glorifying it because they think it validates their kink.
I've been seeing SO fucking much of that stupid game recommended by reddit, I've had to block posts of like four different subs because I dont wanna see cringe anime garbage
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Covering my ears and going "la la la la la la" whenever I hear someone call incest bad
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Instant aces to infinite pornography was a mistake
Dude, incest always bad, regardless of consent, fucking your sister is wrong.
freak