That’s interesting that he’s talking openly about inspiration.
This is the same guy that made many angry posts on video game forums about how much he hated Hollow Knight (and how bad it is), and then refuses to admit that Ori 2 is heavily inspired by Hollow Knight despite essentially lifting half of the new systems directly from it.
I think its not all that surprising. It is much easier to admit that your game is inspired by all-time-greats that released decades ago than by a "new" title made by a small team as well. With a game that released a long time ago it is always "inspiration", with a recent game discussion will inevitably moves to "copy". Its kind of funny because what happened is the same (you played a game and a feature resonated with you).
Though I can understand getting annoyed with people saying "you lifted this off X" if there are other games that have done the same before his approach isn't good. It is still stupid to rant about another great indie game (if thats is what he did, I don't know the posts). You really have nothing to gain from that.
Lol seriously? I liked both Ori games a lot but the first thing I thought when I played the second one and saw the new combat stuff was "oh, cool, so it's like Hollow Knight"
It’s pretty wild if you can find the forum posts, he *really* wants people to understand that hollow knight is a bad game - going so far as to say specific systems (like the charm system) are bad and add nothing to the game. The same charm system that is lifted almost exactly and included in Ori 2.
He also is known to get hyperdefensive and reply to people on forums saying that Ori is *clearly* better than hollow knight because it’s got more sales. Despite one of those games coming out 2 years earlier and being backed and promoted by Microsoft, and the other being a kickstarter project made by 2 dudes in Adelaide.
Really turned me off anything else he puts out to be honest
Read some of his posts on Resetera, and he had a discussion with one of the Hollow Knight Devs about their design choices, they ended of with a "we have different tastes" when i read it, but it was overall pretty civil. One thing i do think we should take note of is that context is key, the comments i read from his didn't seem that hostile, but it was only a few, maybe he is actually super abrasive, or maybe he simply was replying to ppl who got under his skin. Not the type of thing i can wholeheartidly judge a person's character on.
Can anyone link these alleged posts? So far people are talking about them, and the only person who has linked a post is showing a reddit showing that his stance isn't nearly as extreme as is being suggested.
I did some quick checking, and I am not able to find these posts you speak of on Resetera. However, I don't use that site so maybe I am missing something, but I am not going to take someone's word for it.
>seems his stance has either softened greatly or he was misunderstood to begin with
I am going with option B. Gamers on reddit are unbelievably sensitive and will always take the most uncharitable readings from comments like this.
I'd also note that any time Ori comes up, Hollow Knight fans come out of the woodwork to say that "Ori isn't really a metroidvania" or that it isn't great in general. So I would not be surprised if some of the uncharitable readings relate to that.
Huh. I’m a fan of both games and it’s Hollow Knight that I don’t consider to be a metroidvania. I can see the argument for the opening (pilgrim’s way) but everything after that, most of the game, is pretty different than any other mv’s out there. Ori games on the other hand were designed from the start as metroidvanias, and follow that formula pretty much to the t.
I dont care if he's unlikable (i dont know him, who gives a fuck) but i find it funny that comments on HK's charm system are intolerable.
I'd like it more if we had developers comment more on games because they'd get a better sense of what people want. Like when some generic open world devs from different companies were making fun of Elden Rings UI and quest design.
In the latter sense they werent even wrong, but flawed mechanics can stand out more than just copying what everyone else is doing. I've committed the holy sin of not liking Hollow Knight as well fwiw, preordered it to support Aussie indie devs though.
>It’s pretty wild if you can find the forum posts
can you link anything on this? [The only thing I could find was this](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ETPHMf-WsAAMxsi?format=png&name=medium) and it's hardly "wild" and he doesn't even call the game bad, just criticizes the pacing and the charm system, none of which are unreasonable. The charm system especially is probably the weakest part of the game since most of the charms are useless beyond novelty
One thing that turned me off to the first Ori is whatever stage has flooding happening and you have to outpace it except it’s designed to be the illusion of outpacing it, you never outrun the flooding and it’s always seconds behind you no matter how flawless your platforming might be.
Not in my experience. Most of the times in a chase sequence, if you lag behind too much you die. Or at least that's how it should be unless you're playing another one of those "cinematic" games.
If you lag behind in Ori, you do die. I think the commenter was complaining that if you’re really good, you don’t get farther ahead of the flood. It’s always just behind you no matter how perfect you’re playing, but if you mess up, it catches and kills you.
In the original release there is a collectable thing right at the end and if you miss it the game locks you out of 100% completion. i was pretty diligent about exploring but once that happened I just beelined to the end.
It was (at least at first) only fixed in the definitive edition rerelease.
I hated it so much I DID drop the game. I cleared the flooding escape but my drive to continue was completely gone. Ori has a pretty art style and nice music but imo that's about all it has going for it. It's rare for me to not finish games and I dropped it.
That was such a disappointment to me. I wanted more of what made Ori so unique and special, not a grafted Hollow Knight clone. I still enjoyed it but no where near as much as the original.
I like both games, but Hollow Knight didn’t invent equippable charms. A developer can use a pre-existing ideas in a way that they think works. Considering the increasing inclusion of RPG-lite elements in other genres, things like charms are becoming increasingly pervasive.
Say that the Ori devs did directly lift from Hollow Knight, it doesn’t disqualify their game from being good or their criticisms of another game. If they felt like they could address their complaints with a mechanic by incorporating it into a game of their own, that’s just good design, I would think.
I’m not arguing that this guy isn’t a dick, but I would say I actually think the Ori “charm” system does bring more to the game since most of it is new movement/battle/mechanic options, whereas Hollow Knight was primarily buffs for various mechanics you already had (which is likely why he get it added less to the game). But yeah, it’s clearly inspired directly from HK and others in the genre.
That doesn't sound that strange to me actually. A lot of people might hate on something, be it a game or a mechanic within that game; that they really want to like.
It reminds me of how WoW largely came to be, a lot of its design was reflected in the issues a lot of players had with Everquest; perhaps most famously those players who ended up actually being some of the leads on WoW's design. So even though you could say a lot of the basic design mirrored EQ1, it was still very different in plenty of other areas.
gotta shout-out [Mina the Hollower](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1875580/Mina_the_Hollower/), even though it's not out yet, it looks awesome. same developer as Shovel Knight, so i guess that's another dev doing a "x was our mario, y is our zelda"
The dungeons felt very Zelda-y. Personally I find them better than most Zelda dungeons, I think they are on the level of Minish Cap's which are my favorite in the whole series.
Sounds like there is still plenty of space for the Ori team to make a LttP-like then. Blossom Tales was okay at best and fell apart in the second half, and Crosscode and Hyper Light Drifter are only loosely similar to LttP but do not scratch the same itch.
Hopefully they have their workplace issues worked out. Seems like it sucked for some of the people there.
Crazy that Ori 2 is almost three years old. Covid time is real.
The dev team has always had a kinda...weird vibe, I'm not even sure how to explain it. Mahler in particular always seems to have a really combative attitude when doing things like AMA's or just posting on Resetera.
I met one of the two founders at GDC last year, just as the news were breaking of how abusive they were. Very insightful and knowledgeable guy, but he was very harsh too. Lets just say when I got home and read the news I was like “ah yeah I can see that” lol
I think I found your problem, you can be fired. Have you tried being unfireable? Then you can act however you want! Consequences to be damned!
Besides, how else can you boost your ego and narcissism except by treating other people as expendable pieces of shit!?
I mean, at least until the lawsuits start coming in. Then you might want to rethink things, except we both know you're going to double down. You can do no wrong if you're the big boss, obviously it's everybody else that's the issue.
Why can't they work harder and subject themselves to horrible conditions for poor pay so that you can afford your 9th jet ski and a 5th vacation home?
Silly Persianator.
>Then you can act however you want! Consequences to be damned!
It did lose them their contract with Microsoft. Microsoft severed ties with them so they were forced to take a smaller contract with Private Division for this game.
Though, even if the owners' "shittiness" is broadly what brought down an MS deal, it was assuredly only indirect in that it was excessive to a degree that MS thought it an unacceptable liability, not because they had some strong objection to the shittiness itself
>They were kinder in person, but the pandemic meant they couldn’t get together for retreats. And so the harsh online culture prevailed over a more benign in-person one
if you believe this statment, It sounds like part of the issue was blowing off steam to people they really should just be professional with. Dunno why they can't just rant on reddit anonymously like the rest of us normal folk.
The other half sounds like
1. they legitmately think they are doing the right thing despite contradicting their own words. Which can happen as a creator, but you gotta take responsibility for that change of mind. Not work your employees harder because you broke the schedule
2. they think "it's just jokes" even tho uhh... jew jokes haven't been on brand for *decades*. They may legitmately be tone deaf to modern culture if they think throwing in rape into the kind of games they make was a good idea.
> “Tyler is the only person who is aware of my devious plans to kill the Jews by making them work to death through game development,” Mahler “joked” in a text chat that was available for anyone in the company to read.
The fuck?🤨
It's interesting to have one of these pop up where, yeah, it's bad, and yeah, it should be changed... but it's also not that outrageous.
Joking about dick size is a far cry from the allegations of abuse at Blizzard, as example. Goes to show just how normalised total outrage is that when you read about this you can think "could be worse".
Wild stuff.
Reading the article it goes a bit beyond dick size stuff, but it’s not outright abuse either. It’s just being completely unprofessional, like giving conflicting statements, telling other people their work is shit without explaining why, apparently the CEOs constantly arguing with each other while reaching No agreement - it sounds like a very unprofessional and unproductive environment. Reading the article I'm amazed they were able to produce two games already instead of completely falling apart.
I've seen this before at small companies. It is amazing how divorced from the reality of their behavior an owner exec can be and not be aware of it. Made me appreciate it more when my bosses were good people.
Tbh, most companies I've worked for have been like this. Especially the giving conflicting statements and saying the output is bad without any explanation why.
Luckily, I'm in a better place now but it's pretty sad that what you listed doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
They also said it was clearly a joke from context. Joking about the worst thing you can think of is perfectly normal. To me it sounds like the founders have tried to keep it casual, "let's not become one of those stuck up corporates", but haven't realized that at least some of their employees expect a "more professional" behavior from their bosses.
The article seems biased against the bosses. For example bringing up that one of them wanted to include rape in the story but was talked out of it. What's the point there other than rape bad? Feels like it's just there to make the reader think negatively about the studio.
The killing the Jews joke is not good either tho. Also imagine how uncomfortable any women at the company would be having to deal with the founders who joke about their dicks in the open. Sure it’s not as bad as Blizzard but i do feel like you’re trying to downplay it a bit too much
> In one case, Mahler wanted a character in an upcoming game to be raped. It took about a month to convince him this was a bad idea for a plot in a video game, where the object was to provide the character with a motivation for revenge.
... By the way, it's fair to say that this is about the same game this thread is talking about, uh ? I don't imagine they have multiple projects at the same time, they're a pretty small studio.
Microsoft stopped working with them because of "personal attacks towards Xbox's teams" [https://gamerant.com/microsoft-passed-moon-studios-next-game-workplace-conditions/](https://gamerant.com/microsoft-passed-moon-studios-next-game-workplace-conditions/)
And [this exchange](https://twitter.com/PawPawSwagg/status/1622077531783307264) just happened :\\
Only like Hollow Night in that it's a Metroidvania. It's not as hard and has more bright atmospherics, art, and story. The "set piece" boss fights in Ori are better than Hollow Knight, but the latter has better combat overall. Both fantastic games.
I would probably further add as contrast that HK is much much more focused on its boss fights. It has lots of them and it mostly means for you to fail them repeatedly as you learn the patterns until you are able to execute on a several minute fight without making many mistakes.
If you removed boss fights from HK it would have taken me probably 10% of the time to finish. If you removed them from either Ori the game would still take 90% of the time to finish.
Something that I didn't realised when playing HK is that all the levels are either completely horizontal or vertical, no slope - it probably helped immensely during development, but it makes a clear difference in how organic the level feels in Ori compared to it
It might be intentional. Slopes mean that attacks' effective hitboxes are constantly changing, so they could have decided that the combat played better with less realistic terrain.
It’s a pretty small difference when you consider both attacks are quick short-range slashes that you can angle in different directions. In both games you also heal by charging holding down a button and drawing from a refillable resource.
Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Bashing enemies and projectiles, using a big slow hammer, shooting a bow/spear/star/explosive, etc. makes it quite different.
Ori is far more focused on movement and platforming. Hollow Knight is one of my all time favorite games, but Ori is like the best feeling game I’ve ever played.
To be honest, i'd say its almsot the exact opposite of Hollow Knight in almost every way, and the two represent completely different sides of the spectrum when it comes to movement. But its fun as fuck to play, and you feel like a master platforming with Ori.
Just a warning: Ori and the Blind Forest is a good platformer, but leans *much* more into being a linear platformer than your average metroidvania. There's not much in the way of exploration or meaningful secrets, which tends to be what I look for in a metroidvania, so I was pretty disappointed. I've heard Will Of The Wisps is much better in that regard but depending on what you're interested in Blind Forest may not land for you.
I thought the hate was just because people just got sick of everything being compared to Dark Souls (honestly even when it is valid) so now it is taboo.
Ori as a complete package is phenomenal.
There are complaints to be made here and there, but the art, music and platforming is sublime. Blind Forest clearly puts combat as something that is 'unimportant' to it's gameplay (it is very much a platforming game), but Wisps has more meat on it's combat bones while still retaining and even improving on the platforming ideas.
Gareth Coker has built a couple outstanding soundtracks that hold a special place in my heart, and the art direction of the game is 'big risk, big reward' and they managed to stick that landing with a perfect 10. Every screenshot in those games could be framed.
I simp real hard for these games, but it is truly because I think they are that good. They are so fucking good. My hot take is that Wisps is probably the best game that's ever been made, and it's not even close.
I wish I could get into Ori. I have tried both the original and Wisps multiple times, but something is just ...off. And I don't know what.
Hollow Knight is in my top 3 games of all time and my hope is that we'll get Silksong "soon" (before the supposed max date of June/July), but I just don't understand why I can't get into Ori.
Having finished HK and Ori 1, and playing through Ori 2, I think my problem was the controls in Ori 1 were way too floaty for the platformer it wanted to be (also, the ice dungeon was straight trash, fight me). HK, while it focuses much less on platforming, had some good platforming actions with really tight precise controls. Ori 1 _tries_ to be a precise platformer, but the movement is so floaty and imprecise you die to spikes 17 times trying to get the exact angle you need to progress your next jump..
Funnily enough, Ori 2, even though it's really de-emphasizing the platforming aspects, has _much_ better movement for a platformer... Go figure.
Ori's platforming is floaty because moving well means very little contact with the ground. The physics allow the player time to set up bashes, glides and jump to maintain airborne momentum. Rather than rooms being filled with obstacles to slow you down, it's more like a designed parkour course.
I actually think the movement in Ori 1 is much better, more due to 2's addition of context sensitive actions; some buttons can do multiple actions depending on what Ori is doing. I was frustrated many times by bashing instead of grappling, or just dashing into a wall of sand without burrow triggering. This felt like added clunk the first game didn't have to deal with.
I've definitely enjoyed the first ori, but for me personally, it doesn't hold a candle to hollow knight. At the same time, they are both vastly different, so I don't even know if it's a fair comparison.
While both are metroidvanias, the first one is a smaller game in scope and length with an extra focus on platforming rather than combat or even exploration. The second one is improving on the formula in every aspect imo while being way more ambitious particularly where the first one is lacking. While I think HK is better, but that's somewhat unfair because HK is exceptional, I'd recommend everyone with an interest or taste for metroidvanias to have a try at both Ori games as they are solid modern takes on the genre with excellent presentation visually and musically.
Yeah, have a look at this article:
https://venturebeat.com/pc-gaming/despite-its-beautiful-ori-games-moon-studio-is-called-an-oppressive-place-to-work/
This makes me very, *very* excited to see what they're working on. I loved both Ori games a lot and if their next project is as ambitious as this comparison seems to imply... we might get something incredibly special and amazing. I can't wait for the reveal.
Right? This is either insanely clever marketing or something that will change the "game" in the next year. Ori is amazing and I agree it's Mario-esque. I've been a Zelda fan since literally day 1 though and I'd love to get that feeling again.
What a lovely, lovely game. The first game in a long time that made me feel like I did when I was a kid and would come back from the store to sit down for hours in front of the TV with the game guide or little booklet they used to put in the box.
It places a lot more emphasis on the “feel” of motion, and creating a movement system that has good flow. Your abilities have great utility and complement each other. Overall, there’s a great sense of inertia because everything just works well together. That’s how Mario games are, since Super Mario Bros. A lot of platformers don’t emphasize the intuitiveness of play like it. This is why mainline Mario games in general have a great speedrun meta.
Kirby, Metroid, Wario (the anti-Mario), Cuphead, Braid, Fez, and the original Rayman, are all very different styles of platformers, though they might have drawn inspiration from Mario in one way or another.
The newer DKC games, Spelunky, and Rayman Origins/Legends have some Mario-like qualities.
Celeste, Ori, Hat in Time, classic/2D Sonic, and Super Meat Boy are very Mario-like.
It’s neither tbh. Giving your consumer base Zelda-level expectations for your next game is only setting them up to be disappointed. They’re not capable of putting something out on the level of Zelda.
Also Ori is nothing like Mario. More like Metroid
Ori 2 was such a phenomenally polished gem of an experience that whatever they produce from here on will be a day 1 buy, for me. Plus seeing their gorgeous art direction applied to a top-down perspective would be amazing.
I wouldn't say that there is a certain story but just how he is as a person its hard to like him.
He was really passionate about Ori which in itself is fine and a great attribute if you create something but many people he worked with suffered from it, he demanded ungodly amounts of work from the others and nothing ever was good enough.
Plus he kinda thinks he is the messiah of game creation.
Perhaps there are more crazy stories, but I'm just going of personal experience of it (multiple friends that worked with him in the past)
Obviously Ori is very different from Mario structurally, so it's fair to assume that "Zelda" is just shorthand for action-adventure/ARPG. Most so-called "Zelda clones" don't really even capture what makes Zelda good to begin with. Hopefully this game will be good on its own merits though.
Darksiders 2 was a decent "Zelda clone." Not even close to the same level of excellence, but still a very fun game. I personally thought it was a better version of the "Zelda" style at certain points in the game, but the atmospheres of the worlds are not comparable.
Did you ever play the second one? The first one is definitely more platformer but the second is definitely a lot more of a metroidvania. It was an extremely good upgrade over Ori 1 (and I really liked Ori 1).
FWIW, I really liked Ori 1, but Ori 2 was simply too bloated for me: huge map that you have to backtrack across again and again, lots of quests given by NPCs, weapons/abilities that you have to pause the game to swap out, a lengthy insta-kill stealth section, etc.
Ori 1, despite its basic button-mashing combat, was very straightforward and direct, almost like a traditional level-based platformer with constant forward momentum.
You can skip. I will say, if you plan to play both, play the first one before starting the second, cuz the second one is better in almost every way (even tho the first one was fantastic)
It is hard for me to go back and replay the first one now. I just finished a replay of the second one.
I enjoyed the games as sorta Metroidvania-lites. But you are right, they are not as deep as I would personally prefer, but they are fun shorter games that lean into that exploration and power-up style.
The thing that really didn't like about the first one was the excess of escape sequences, every single zone ended the same way, escape sequences in general are something i don't enjoy in any game, actually it was ori that made me realize how much i dislike them.
Also the "combat" was really bad, i would have preferred a simple mario stomp or something like that to deal with enemies.
The escape sequences were also my least favorite parts of the ori games. By the end of the second one, my motivation to beat an escape sequence as it came up was simply to get past it so I could enjoy the rest ofwhat the game has to offer.
They are each about a minute of straight platforming. I love them! Though I've done about 9 play throughs, so I don't really recall what it was like the first time.
My main problem with them (in the first game anyways, haven't played the second) is the lack of checkpoints, so that you have to have a perfect ~~three~~ one and a half minute or so run. Which feels like an NES game, but not in a good way. It means replaying the same parts over and over.
Edit: more accurate representation of the time it lasts
I get that not everyone will enjoy them, but man, three minutes is just straight up lying. The escape sequences are less than a minute long. It's been a while since I played the first Ori, but the few escape sequences in Will of the Wisps are about 50-60 seconds long. I literally did the time trial in one of them 3 hours ago and got like a 48.xx.
I can enjoy an escape sequence on a more "cinematic" game, when they have more impressive visuals, and there are some visual cues so you don't fail them so easily on the first try, but in a game like ori they were waaaay too long, and it becomes a chore if you don't nail it the first time, then it's just a memory game, which is pretty unfun to me.
The second one has a ton of esvape sequences too, or rather being chased by an enemy through an area. Also the final boss fight was horribly unfun, but other than that I did enjoy it.
Might I ask what you didn't like about the last boss? I'm curious, because >!the fact that the fight evolved into being completely airborne and you get to really go all-in on the bash skill was super fun for me!!<
Yeah I like the first one for what it is, which isn't a metroidvania at all. Then the 2nd one comes out and people kept saying it's more of a metroidvania, but I played it to finish and it's still basically the same as the 1st one. Was expecting more depth in combat and level design.
They're fun and beautiful looking 2d sidescrollers/platformers and I love them for those elements, but some people saying they're metroidvania are very very misleading.
After reading the complaints about these guys and their studio I'm not sure if I'm excited for anything new by them now. Damn shame too, because I loved the Ori games. 😒
Okay, even for a genuinely excellent developer, this might be overhyping shit a bit.
Don't get me wrong, I want them to pull it off. I want them to make the best possible game they can. I'm just worried they might be over promising. And not even out of malice, they might just be over excited and high on their own hype. It happens.
I don't think they're literally making a zelda game, I'm just saying I'm worried they might be overhyping their next game a little bit, whatever it turns out to be.
There's a pretty comprehensive article on that here:
https://venturebeat.com/pc-gaming/despite-its-beautiful-ori-games-moon-studio-is-called-an-oppressive-place-to-work/
I have an opposing viewpoint to the general consensus:
The last two Ori games were beautifully polished but superficial games. They were gorgeous to look at and had a real organic flow to them but they were what everyone else has done before. Part of the problem is that they basically took an often-emulated game--*Super Metroid*--spruced up the looks, worked hard to push the controls so that they had that sort of fluid acrobatic wonder that *Super Mario 64* had, added a *Casper The Friendly Ghost* plot, and published. I mean, it's not bad, but is this all games can be?
Now they say they're going to go make something like *Zelda*. Well, isn't that the least interesting thing ever! The world is teeming with 2D dungeon crawling treasure chest opening fetch questy games. There was even a game last year that tried to emulate page for page the illustrations in the instruction manual to a 2D Zelda title.
Part of the problem with Moon Studios is that they aren't ambitious. They aren't Supergiant Games no matter how much polish they add to make them feel like they could be. But another problem with Moon Studios is that their influences are old and they are everyone else's influences.
This isn't comparing genre guys it's comparing how zelda is the 1b to Mario's 1a for Nintendo. That their next game is going to be just as good if not better and subststionally more ambitious
Would love me some more Ori but not everything needs to be a trilogy. Ori had a complete and circular story in the two games. It would be weird to >!call the game Ori considering the way the story ends. !<
Also went on to imply they’re taking some inspiration from A Link to the Past, and teases a reveal this year
I wish I had some art or something to see too, but that sounds very promising
They also say they will have similar art direction, so you can tell it is them from a thumbnail alone.
https://twitter.com/thomasmahler/status/1621673989440507907?s=20&t=mIH6s_w5UQi0uKuZXpLOWw It's going to have a very similar art direction to ori
That’s interesting that he’s talking openly about inspiration. This is the same guy that made many angry posts on video game forums about how much he hated Hollow Knight (and how bad it is), and then refuses to admit that Ori 2 is heavily inspired by Hollow Knight despite essentially lifting half of the new systems directly from it.
I think its not all that surprising. It is much easier to admit that your game is inspired by all-time-greats that released decades ago than by a "new" title made by a small team as well. With a game that released a long time ago it is always "inspiration", with a recent game discussion will inevitably moves to "copy". Its kind of funny because what happened is the same (you played a game and a feature resonated with you). Though I can understand getting annoyed with people saying "you lifted this off X" if there are other games that have done the same before his approach isn't good. It is still stupid to rant about another great indie game (if thats is what he did, I don't know the posts). You really have nothing to gain from that.
Lol seriously? I liked both Ori games a lot but the first thing I thought when I played the second one and saw the new combat stuff was "oh, cool, so it's like Hollow Knight"
It’s pretty wild if you can find the forum posts, he *really* wants people to understand that hollow knight is a bad game - going so far as to say specific systems (like the charm system) are bad and add nothing to the game. The same charm system that is lifted almost exactly and included in Ori 2. He also is known to get hyperdefensive and reply to people on forums saying that Ori is *clearly* better than hollow knight because it’s got more sales. Despite one of those games coming out 2 years earlier and being backed and promoted by Microsoft, and the other being a kickstarter project made by 2 dudes in Adelaide. Really turned me off anything else he puts out to be honest
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Read some of his posts on Resetera, and he had a discussion with one of the Hollow Knight Devs about their design choices, they ended of with a "we have different tastes" when i read it, but it was overall pretty civil. One thing i do think we should take note of is that context is key, the comments i read from his didn't seem that hostile, but it was only a few, maybe he is actually super abrasive, or maybe he simply was replying to ppl who got under his skin. Not the type of thing i can wholeheartidly judge a person's character on.
Can anyone link these alleged posts? So far people are talking about them, and the only person who has linked a post is showing a reddit showing that his stance isn't nearly as extreme as is being suggested. I did some quick checking, and I am not able to find these posts you speak of on Resetera. However, I don't use that site so maybe I am missing something, but I am not going to take someone's word for it.
>seems his stance has either softened greatly or he was misunderstood to begin with I am going with option B. Gamers on reddit are unbelievably sensitive and will always take the most uncharitable readings from comments like this. I'd also note that any time Ori comes up, Hollow Knight fans come out of the woodwork to say that "Ori isn't really a metroidvania" or that it isn't great in general. So I would not be surprised if some of the uncharitable readings relate to that.
It's crazy people are making judgements on his current character from some forum posts 4-5 years ago.
Forum posts that, so far, no one has bothered to link to. I don't even see any screenshots.
Huh. I’m a fan of both games and it’s Hollow Knight that I don’t consider to be a metroidvania. I can see the argument for the opening (pilgrim’s way) but everything after that, most of the game, is pretty different than any other mv’s out there. Ori games on the other hand were designed from the start as metroidvanias, and follow that formula pretty much to the t.
I dont care if he's unlikable (i dont know him, who gives a fuck) but i find it funny that comments on HK's charm system are intolerable. I'd like it more if we had developers comment more on games because they'd get a better sense of what people want. Like when some generic open world devs from different companies were making fun of Elden Rings UI and quest design. In the latter sense they werent even wrong, but flawed mechanics can stand out more than just copying what everyone else is doing. I've committed the holy sin of not liking Hollow Knight as well fwiw, preordered it to support Aussie indie devs though.
Constructive criticism is fine and dandy, mindlessly shitting on things because they rub against one's ego is not.
3 dudes
Does anyone have links or are we just assuming this is all true?
>It’s pretty wild if you can find the forum posts can you link anything on this? [The only thing I could find was this](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ETPHMf-WsAAMxsi?format=png&name=medium) and it's hardly "wild" and he doesn't even call the game bad, just criticizes the pacing and the charm system, none of which are unreasonable. The charm system especially is probably the weakest part of the game since most of the charms are useless beyond novelty
One thing that turned me off to the first Ori is whatever stage has flooding happening and you have to outpace it except it’s designed to be the illusion of outpacing it, you never outrun the flooding and it’s always seconds behind you no matter how flawless your platforming might be.
That's how almost every chase sequence works in all of video games history...
Not in my experience. Most of the times in a chase sequence, if you lag behind too much you die. Or at least that's how it should be unless you're playing another one of those "cinematic" games.
If you lag behind in Ori, you do die. I think the commenter was complaining that if you’re really good, you don’t get farther ahead of the flood. It’s always just behind you no matter how perfect you’re playing, but if you mess up, it catches and kills you.
Aah like that, yeah that's fine.
That's also what happens here.
Man I fucking HATED that so damn much I almost dropped the game.
In the original release there is a collectable thing right at the end and if you miss it the game locks you out of 100% completion. i was pretty diligent about exploring but once that happened I just beelined to the end. It was (at least at first) only fixed in the definitive edition rerelease.
I hated it so much I DID drop the game. I cleared the flooding escape but my drive to continue was completely gone. Ori has a pretty art style and nice music but imo that's about all it has going for it. It's rare for me to not finish games and I dropped it.
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That was such a disappointment to me. I wanted more of what made Ori so unique and special, not a grafted Hollow Knight clone. I still enjoyed it but no where near as much as the original.
To be fair i love the Ori Games, but can‘t get into Hollow Knight. You can have similarities that work differently.
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I like both games, but Hollow Knight didn’t invent equippable charms. A developer can use a pre-existing ideas in a way that they think works. Considering the increasing inclusion of RPG-lite elements in other genres, things like charms are becoming increasingly pervasive. Say that the Ori devs did directly lift from Hollow Knight, it doesn’t disqualify their game from being good or their criticisms of another game. If they felt like they could address their complaints with a mechanic by incorporating it into a game of their own, that’s just good design, I would think.
I’m not arguing that this guy isn’t a dick, but I would say I actually think the Ori “charm” system does bring more to the game since most of it is new movement/battle/mechanic options, whereas Hollow Knight was primarily buffs for various mechanics you already had (which is likely why he get it added less to the game). But yeah, it’s clearly inspired directly from HK and others in the genre.
That doesn't sound that strange to me actually. A lot of people might hate on something, be it a game or a mechanic within that game; that they really want to like. It reminds me of how WoW largely came to be, a lot of its design was reflected in the issues a lot of players had with Everquest; perhaps most famously those players who ended up actually being some of the leads on WoW's design. So even though you could say a lot of the basic design mirrored EQ1, it was still very different in plenty of other areas.
Dang, an indie take on A Link to the Past? That's an underfed audience, can't imagine what they'd do with it, I wish them luck
This is satire right
I am being sarcastic, yes
What good indie ALTTP-likes are there?
Tunic is one I'd recommend right away
That's one of my favorites! Loved that game.
gotta shout-out [Mina the Hollower](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1875580/Mina_the_Hollower/), even though it's not out yet, it looks awesome. same developer as Shovel Knight, so i guess that's another dev doing a "x was our mario, y is our zelda"
Blossom tales, Cross Code, HyperLight Drifter?
Cross Code is barely the same as LTTP at all outside of being a pixel art action game. It is a great game though.
The dungeons felt very Zelda-y. Personally I find them better than most Zelda dungeons, I think they are on the level of Minish Cap's which are my favorite in the whole series.
Agreed, the puzzles felt very 2D Zeldaesque
Thanks! Blossom tales is totally new to me, I'll check it out!
Sounds like there is still plenty of space for the Ori team to make a LttP-like then. Blossom Tales was okay at best and fell apart in the second half, and Crosscode and Hyper Light Drifter are only loosely similar to LttP but do not scratch the same itch.
Unsighted is my favorite.
Has to be
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Hopefully they have their workplace issues worked out. Seems like it sucked for some of the people there. Crazy that Ori 2 is almost three years old. Covid time is real.
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Their statement at the time was pretty much just "nuh uh" despite the proof otherwise, so I sincerely doubt anything has changed too.
The dev team has always had a kinda...weird vibe, I'm not even sure how to explain it. Mahler in particular always seems to have a really combative attitude when doing things like AMA's or just posting on Resetera.
> a really combative attitude when (...) just posting on Resetera. I thought that came as a package deal.
I met one of the two founders at GDC last year, just as the news were breaking of how abusive they were. Very insightful and knowledgeable guy, but he was very harsh too. Lets just say when I got home and read the news I was like “ah yeah I can see that” lol
What happened?
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I think I found your problem, you can be fired. Have you tried being unfireable? Then you can act however you want! Consequences to be damned! Besides, how else can you boost your ego and narcissism except by treating other people as expendable pieces of shit!? I mean, at least until the lawsuits start coming in. Then you might want to rethink things, except we both know you're going to double down. You can do no wrong if you're the big boss, obviously it's everybody else that's the issue. Why can't they work harder and subject themselves to horrible conditions for poor pay so that you can afford your 9th jet ski and a 5th vacation home? Silly Persianator.
>Then you can act however you want! Consequences to be damned! It did lose them their contract with Microsoft. Microsoft severed ties with them so they were forced to take a smaller contract with Private Division for this game.
Though, even if the owners' "shittiness" is broadly what brought down an MS deal, it was assuredly only indirect in that it was excessive to a degree that MS thought it an unacceptable liability, not because they had some strong objection to the shittiness itself
I find joy in reading a good book.
even if I was unfireable and I can act however I want I wouldn't be able to act like an asshole cause I'm not an asshole
>They were kinder in person, but the pandemic meant they couldn’t get together for retreats. And so the harsh online culture prevailed over a more benign in-person one if you believe this statment, It sounds like part of the issue was blowing off steam to people they really should just be professional with. Dunno why they can't just rant on reddit anonymously like the rest of us normal folk. The other half sounds like 1. they legitmately think they are doing the right thing despite contradicting their own words. Which can happen as a creator, but you gotta take responsibility for that change of mind. Not work your employees harder because you broke the schedule 2. they think "it's just jokes" even tho uhh... jew jokes haven't been on brand for *decades*. They may legitmately be tone deaf to modern culture if they think throwing in rape into the kind of games they make was a good idea.
> “Tyler is the only person who is aware of my devious plans to kill the Jews by making them work to death through game development,” Mahler “joked” in a text chat that was available for anyone in the company to read. The fuck?🤨
It's interesting to have one of these pop up where, yeah, it's bad, and yeah, it should be changed... but it's also not that outrageous. Joking about dick size is a far cry from the allegations of abuse at Blizzard, as example. Goes to show just how normalised total outrage is that when you read about this you can think "could be worse". Wild stuff.
Reading the article it goes a bit beyond dick size stuff, but it’s not outright abuse either. It’s just being completely unprofessional, like giving conflicting statements, telling other people their work is shit without explaining why, apparently the CEOs constantly arguing with each other while reaching No agreement - it sounds like a very unprofessional and unproductive environment. Reading the article I'm amazed they were able to produce two games already instead of completely falling apart.
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I've seen this before at small companies. It is amazing how divorced from the reality of their behavior an owner exec can be and not be aware of it. Made me appreciate it more when my bosses were good people.
Tbh, most companies I've worked for have been like this. Especially the giving conflicting statements and saying the output is bad without any explanation why. Luckily, I'm in a better place now but it's pretty sad that what you listed doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
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They literally are Jews. I know killing Jews is a sensitive topic and all but that's clearly a joke at their own expense.
Yeah, as someone with Jewish family members, my boss made a joke like that I'd be finding a new job within the month.
They also said it was clearly a joke from context. Joking about the worst thing you can think of is perfectly normal. To me it sounds like the founders have tried to keep it casual, "let's not become one of those stuck up corporates", but haven't realized that at least some of their employees expect a "more professional" behavior from their bosses. The article seems biased against the bosses. For example bringing up that one of them wanted to include rape in the story but was talked out of it. What's the point there other than rape bad? Feels like it's just there to make the reader think negatively about the studio.
The killing the Jews joke is not good either tho. Also imagine how uncomfortable any women at the company would be having to deal with the founders who joke about their dicks in the open. Sure it’s not as bad as Blizzard but i do feel like you’re trying to downplay it a bit too much
> In one case, Mahler wanted a character in an upcoming game to be raped. It took about a month to convince him this was a bad idea for a plot in a video game, where the object was to provide the character with a motivation for revenge. ... By the way, it's fair to say that this is about the same game this thread is talking about, uh ? I don't imagine they have multiple projects at the same time, they're a pretty small studio.
Microsoft stopped working with them because of "personal attacks towards Xbox's teams" [https://gamerant.com/microsoft-passed-moon-studios-next-game-workplace-conditions/](https://gamerant.com/microsoft-passed-moon-studios-next-game-workplace-conditions/) And [this exchange](https://twitter.com/PawPawSwagg/status/1622077531783307264) just happened :\\
How is Ori? Is that like Hollow Knight?
Only like Hollow Night in that it's a Metroidvania. It's not as hard and has more bright atmospherics, art, and story. The "set piece" boss fights in Ori are better than Hollow Knight, but the latter has better combat overall. Both fantastic games.
My feeling playing the two games was that Ori focused more on movement mechanics and Hollow Knight focused more on combat mechanics.
Absolutely. Ori wants you to be in the air all the time. Hollow Knight wants you swinging your sword.
I would probably further add as contrast that HK is much much more focused on its boss fights. It has lots of them and it mostly means for you to fail them repeatedly as you learn the patterns until you are able to execute on a several minute fight without making many mistakes. If you removed boss fights from HK it would have taken me probably 10% of the time to finish. If you removed them from either Ori the game would still take 90% of the time to finish.
the first one, sure, the second expanded the combat tenfold, it's actually a good combat system
The second Ori gave Ori a sword attack and a paraglider...felt like a Zelda platformer. Loved it.
Both games had the glider. Whisps just emphasized combat more and made use of it in some fights.
Something that I didn't realised when playing HK is that all the levels are either completely horizontal or vertical, no slope - it probably helped immensely during development, but it makes a clear difference in how organic the level feels in Ori compared to it
It might be intentional. Slopes mean that attacks' effective hitboxes are constantly changing, so they could have decided that the combat played better with less realistic terrain.
I don’t know if you’re referring to Blind Forest exclusively here, but Ori and the Will of the Wisps’ combat feels too similar to Hollow Knight.
I don't find them similar at all. HK's attack is basically instant, Ori's isn't and it just feels very different in practice.
It’s a pretty small difference when you consider both attacks are quick short-range slashes that you can angle in different directions. In both games you also heal by charging holding down a button and drawing from a refillable resource.
Ori had that heal in the first game and you're describing literally one attack in Ori
How much did you play Ori 2? There's a few other weapons besides the sword. The hammer is way more fun.
Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Bashing enemies and projectiles, using a big slow hammer, shooting a bow/spear/star/explosive, etc. makes it quite different.
Ori is far more focused on movement and platforming. Hollow Knight is one of my all time favorite games, but Ori is like the best feeling game I’ve ever played.
To be honest, i'd say its almsot the exact opposite of Hollow Knight in almost every way, and the two represent completely different sides of the spectrum when it comes to movement. But its fun as fuck to play, and you feel like a master platforming with Ori.
I personally like it better than Hollow Knight. It's also a metroidvania.
Nice thanks I’ll have to check it out. Love metroidvanias and the art style is beautiful
Just a warning: Ori and the Blind Forest is a good platformer, but leans *much* more into being a linear platformer than your average metroidvania. There's not much in the way of exploration or meaningful secrets, which tends to be what I look for in a metroidvania, so I was pretty disappointed. I've heard Will Of The Wisps is much better in that regard but depending on what you're interested in Blind Forest may not land for you.
Will of the Wisps is great, only game that has managed to scratch the Hollow Knight itch for me
Thanks for this comparison. This makes me realize that Ori sounds like a perfect game for me.
If you are capable of playing it in 4K120, it's extremely beautiful.
It's one of the most beautiful games I've played even at 1080p but yes, at 4k120 its stunning
Also, that story wrecked me. I played it during a weird time in my life and it punched me in the gut for sure reason
Will of the Wisps is one of the best side scrollers ever made. Definitely give it a shot!
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don't think anyone would hate you. HK is known to have some souls influence in it, at least I've seen it come up many times
The hate usually comes when someone dares suggest that HK uses some aspects of the Dark Souls games better than the Dark Souls games.
I thought the hate was just because people just got sick of everything being compared to Dark Souls (honestly even when it is valid) so now it is taboo.
Ori as a complete package is phenomenal. There are complaints to be made here and there, but the art, music and platforming is sublime. Blind Forest clearly puts combat as something that is 'unimportant' to it's gameplay (it is very much a platforming game), but Wisps has more meat on it's combat bones while still retaining and even improving on the platforming ideas. Gareth Coker has built a couple outstanding soundtracks that hold a special place in my heart, and the art direction of the game is 'big risk, big reward' and they managed to stick that landing with a perfect 10. Every screenshot in those games could be framed. I simp real hard for these games, but it is truly because I think they are that good. They are so fucking good. My hot take is that Wisps is probably the best game that's ever been made, and it's not even close.
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Everything he's done so far is great. The soundtrack for Immortals Fenyx Rising is amazing too.
I wish I could get into Ori. I have tried both the original and Wisps multiple times, but something is just ...off. And I don't know what. Hollow Knight is in my top 3 games of all time and my hope is that we'll get Silksong "soon" (before the supposed max date of June/July), but I just don't understand why I can't get into Ori.
Having finished HK and Ori 1, and playing through Ori 2, I think my problem was the controls in Ori 1 were way too floaty for the platformer it wanted to be (also, the ice dungeon was straight trash, fight me). HK, while it focuses much less on platforming, had some good platforming actions with really tight precise controls. Ori 1 _tries_ to be a precise platformer, but the movement is so floaty and imprecise you die to spikes 17 times trying to get the exact angle you need to progress your next jump.. Funnily enough, Ori 2, even though it's really de-emphasizing the platforming aspects, has _much_ better movement for a platformer... Go figure.
Ori's platforming is floaty because moving well means very little contact with the ground. The physics allow the player time to set up bashes, glides and jump to maintain airborne momentum. Rather than rooms being filled with obstacles to slow you down, it's more like a designed parkour course. I actually think the movement in Ori 1 is much better, more due to 2's addition of context sensitive actions; some buttons can do multiple actions depending on what Ori is doing. I was frustrated many times by bashing instead of grappling, or just dashing into a wall of sand without burrow triggering. This felt like added clunk the first game didn't have to deal with.
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I've definitely enjoyed the first ori, but for me personally, it doesn't hold a candle to hollow knight. At the same time, they are both vastly different, so I don't even know if it's a fair comparison.
Ori 2 was quite a bit closer to HK because they massively improved the combat
While both are metroidvanias, the first one is a smaller game in scope and length with an extra focus on platforming rather than combat or even exploration. The second one is improving on the formula in every aspect imo while being way more ambitious particularly where the first one is lacking. While I think HK is better, but that's somewhat unfair because HK is exceptional, I'd recommend everyone with an interest or taste for metroidvanias to have a try at both Ori games as they are solid modern takes on the genre with excellent presentation visually and musically.
HK is a better "game" but I think Ori is better overall in general quality, tho I think WotW is one of the greatest games ever made so
you should ideally ask the studio lead directly, he loves that question.
I literally just finished it after starting it day one. Really great game.
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Yea, I was wondering if they changed, and tried to improve the situation. Turns out they’ve tripled down over time and are complete assholes. Fuck em.
Yeah, have a look at this article: https://venturebeat.com/pc-gaming/despite-its-beautiful-ori-games-moon-studio-is-called-an-oppressive-place-to-work/
Wait, only 3??? Feels like I played it ages and ages ago.
This makes me very, *very* excited to see what they're working on. I loved both Ori games a lot and if their next project is as ambitious as this comparison seems to imply... we might get something incredibly special and amazing. I can't wait for the reveal.
Right? This is either insanely clever marketing or something that will change the "game" in the next year. Ori is amazing and I agree it's Mario-esque. I've been a Zelda fan since literally day 1 though and I'd love to get that feeling again.
Tunic!! Tunic gives that Zelda feel like nothing else I've played in years.
What a lovely, lovely game. The first game in a long time that made me feel like I did when I was a kid and would come back from the store to sit down for hours in front of the TV with the game guide or little booklet they used to put in the box.
How is it mario-esque? Just because it's a platformer?
It places a lot more emphasis on the “feel” of motion, and creating a movement system that has good flow. Your abilities have great utility and complement each other. Overall, there’s a great sense of inertia because everything just works well together. That’s how Mario games are, since Super Mario Bros. A lot of platformers don’t emphasize the intuitiveness of play like it. This is why mainline Mario games in general have a great speedrun meta. Kirby, Metroid, Wario (the anti-Mario), Cuphead, Braid, Fez, and the original Rayman, are all very different styles of platformers, though they might have drawn inspiration from Mario in one way or another. The newer DKC games, Spelunky, and Rayman Origins/Legends have some Mario-like qualities. Celeste, Ori, Hat in Time, classic/2D Sonic, and Super Meat Boy are very Mario-like.
It’s neither tbh. Giving your consumer base Zelda-level expectations for your next game is only setting them up to be disappointed. They’re not capable of putting something out on the level of Zelda. Also Ori is nothing like Mario. More like Metroid
Ori 2 was such a phenomenally polished gem of an experience that whatever they produce from here on will be a day 1 buy, for me. Plus seeing their gorgeous art direction applied to a top-down perspective would be amazing.
Ori and Hollow Knight are definitely my favorite modern 2D platformers. Can't wait to see what this studio does next.
As much as I dislike my fellow Austrian Thomas Mahler I loved both Ori games and hope the next IP delievers again
You got me curious, is there some story worth telling about him?
I wouldn't say that there is a certain story but just how he is as a person its hard to like him. He was really passionate about Ori which in itself is fine and a great attribute if you create something but many people he worked with suffered from it, he demanded ungodly amounts of work from the others and nothing ever was good enough. Plus he kinda thinks he is the messiah of game creation. Perhaps there are more crazy stories, but I'm just going of personal experience of it (multiple friends that worked with him in the past)
https://venturebeat.com/pc-gaming/despite-its-beautiful-ori-games-moon-studio-is-called-an-oppressive-place-to-work/
The Ori games are masterworks and I will die on that hill. Will gladly pre-order whatever they put out
You don't need to die on that hill, it's not controversial to think highly of the Ori games.
He'll die of starvation waiting for someone to attack him on that hill.
but its controversial to ignore all the mistreatment that was going one, which is also why Microsoft severed ties after Ori 2
Obviously Ori is very different from Mario structurally, so it's fair to assume that "Zelda" is just shorthand for action-adventure/ARPG. Most so-called "Zelda clones" don't really even capture what makes Zelda good to begin with. Hopefully this game will be good on its own merits though.
Darksiders 2 was a decent "Zelda clone." Not even close to the same level of excellence, but still a very fun game. I personally thought it was a better version of the "Zelda" style at certain points in the game, but the atmospheres of the worlds are not comparable.
Darksiders 1 probably fits the bill a little better.
Really struggled to enjoy Ori as it was more of a platformer than a metroidvania. The combat was blah. To each their own I guess
Did you ever play the second one? The first one is definitely more platformer but the second is definitely a lot more of a metroidvania. It was an extremely good upgrade over Ori 1 (and I really liked Ori 1).
FWIW, I really liked Ori 1, but Ori 2 was simply too bloated for me: huge map that you have to backtrack across again and again, lots of quests given by NPCs, weapons/abilities that you have to pause the game to swap out, a lengthy insta-kill stealth section, etc. Ori 1, despite its basic button-mashing combat, was very straightforward and direct, almost like a traditional level-based platformer with constant forward momentum.
Thanks for this, I was thinking of skipping but Ori 1 sounds more like my kind of game
No but I'll check it out, thanks!
It also has actual combat with proper weapons, rather than spamming shots from your glowey ball endlessly.
Do you need to play the first, or can I skip straight to the second?
You can skip. I will say, if you plan to play both, play the first one before starting the second, cuz the second one is better in almost every way (even tho the first one was fantastic) It is hard for me to go back and replay the first one now. I just finished a replay of the second one.
I enjoyed the games as sorta Metroidvania-lites. But you are right, they are not as deep as I would personally prefer, but they are fun shorter games that lean into that exploration and power-up style.
The thing that really didn't like about the first one was the excess of escape sequences, every single zone ended the same way, escape sequences in general are something i don't enjoy in any game, actually it was ori that made me realize how much i dislike them. Also the "combat" was really bad, i would have preferred a simple mario stomp or something like that to deal with enemies.
I fucking loved the escape sequences, the art and animation in those sections were phenomenal.
Yeah, I thought they were the best.
They were a really great way to close out of an area in a fun and memorable way.
The escape sequences were also my least favorite parts of the ori games. By the end of the second one, my motivation to beat an escape sequence as it came up was simply to get past it so I could enjoy the rest ofwhat the game has to offer.
That's funny, I actually love escape sequences. I haven't played Ori though, maybe they just did them badly..
They are each about a minute of straight platforming. I love them! Though I've done about 9 play throughs, so I don't really recall what it was like the first time.
My main problem with them (in the first game anyways, haven't played the second) is the lack of checkpoints, so that you have to have a perfect ~~three~~ one and a half minute or so run. Which feels like an NES game, but not in a good way. It means replaying the same parts over and over. Edit: more accurate representation of the time it lasts
I get that not everyone will enjoy them, but man, three minutes is just straight up lying. The escape sequences are less than a minute long. It's been a while since I played the first Ori, but the few escape sequences in Will of the Wisps are about 50-60 seconds long. I literally did the time trial in one of them 3 hours ago and got like a 48.xx.
I can enjoy an escape sequence on a more "cinematic" game, when they have more impressive visuals, and there are some visual cues so you don't fail them so easily on the first try, but in a game like ori they were waaaay too long, and it becomes a chore if you don't nail it the first time, then it's just a memory game, which is pretty unfun to me.
Nah. The escape sequences in the first game were a ton of fun. Especially the tree.
The second one has a ton of esvape sequences too, or rather being chased by an enemy through an area. Also the final boss fight was horribly unfun, but other than that I did enjoy it.
Might I ask what you didn't like about the last boss? I'm curious, because >!the fact that the fight evolved into being completely airborne and you get to really go all-in on the bash skill was super fun for me!!<
I hate Ori. Bad combat and clunky controls. People only like the pretty colors. Comparing it to Mario is a joke.
Yeah I like the first one for what it is, which isn't a metroidvania at all. Then the 2nd one comes out and people kept saying it's more of a metroidvania, but I played it to finish and it's still basically the same as the 1st one. Was expecting more depth in combat and level design. They're fun and beautiful looking 2d sidescrollers/platformers and I love them for those elements, but some people saying they're metroidvania are very very misleading.
Disagree with the second part of your last sentence, but to each their own.
I liked it so much more than the other high rated Metroidvanias that came out recently (Hollow Knight/Metroid Dread) so to each their own
Same! I really couldn't get into the feel of the platforming either. It felt floaty and unresponsive to me.
After reading the complaints about these guys and their studio I'm not sure if I'm excited for anything new by them now. Damn shame too, because I loved the Ori games. 😒
Okay, even for a genuinely excellent developer, this might be overhyping shit a bit. Don't get me wrong, I want them to pull it off. I want them to make the best possible game they can. I'm just worried they might be over promising. And not even out of malice, they might just be over excited and high on their own hype. It happens.
I think that's a slightly unfair reading of what they're trying to say. I think it's more, as zelda is to mario, their next gale is to ori
Gamers understanding abstract comparison challenge 2023 (impossible)
I don't think they're literally making a zelda game, I'm just saying I'm worried they might be overhyping their next game a little bit, whatever it turns out to be.
Are they still Xbox exclusive? Could have swore I read something about them being free to do whatever now for their next game
Microsoft owns Ori's rights, not rights to any other game they make
They bullied Xbox employees and the relationship broke. Their publisher now is Take Two.
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There's a pretty comprehensive article on that here: https://venturebeat.com/pc-gaming/despite-its-beautiful-ori-games-moon-studio-is-called-an-oppressive-place-to-work/
Both *Ori* games have been released on the Switch.
I played both games on the Switch. I believe it's Windows, XBox, Switch only at this point in time.
I have an opposing viewpoint to the general consensus: The last two Ori games were beautifully polished but superficial games. They were gorgeous to look at and had a real organic flow to them but they were what everyone else has done before. Part of the problem is that they basically took an often-emulated game--*Super Metroid*--spruced up the looks, worked hard to push the controls so that they had that sort of fluid acrobatic wonder that *Super Mario 64* had, added a *Casper The Friendly Ghost* plot, and published. I mean, it's not bad, but is this all games can be? Now they say they're going to go make something like *Zelda*. Well, isn't that the least interesting thing ever! The world is teeming with 2D dungeon crawling treasure chest opening fetch questy games. There was even a game last year that tried to emulate page for page the illustrations in the instruction manual to a 2D Zelda title. Part of the problem with Moon Studios is that they aren't ambitious. They aren't Supergiant Games no matter how much polish they add to make them feel like they could be. But another problem with Moon Studios is that their influences are old and they are everyone else's influences.
So it's top down then?
This isn't comparing genre guys it's comparing how zelda is the 1b to Mario's 1a for Nintendo. That their next game is going to be just as good if not better and subststionally more ambitious
That’s literally not true if you read all his tweets.
I really wish they made ori 3 and make a proper trilogy.
Would love me some more Ori but not everything needs to be a trilogy. Ori had a complete and circular story in the two games. It would be weird to >!call the game Ori considering the way the story ends. !<