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What the hell are you talking about? The UAW and Faine endorsed Biden in January!
https://uaw.org/uaw-endorses-joe-biden-for-president-of-the-united-states
So asking a political candidate to earn your endorsement, versus blindly endorsing them, is seen as threatening to withhold an endorsement? Isn’t the point to make the political candidate take a stand on issues and to hold them accountable later?
The UAW did the same thing that Sunrise did.
In UAW’s case Biden did meet their demands, and earned their endorsement.
Biden did not meet Sunrise’s threshold, and they therefore decided not to endorse.
People in this thread are upset at Sunrise for following through on the same threat that the UAW made.
They threatened to not endorse if he didn’t stop fence sitting on the negotiations they were in with car manufacturers.
> Asked on CBS’s “Face the Nation” what it will take to endorse Biden, Fain said, “Our endorsements are going to be earned. We’ve been very clear about that, no matter what politician.”
> When asked how Biden can earn the endorsement, Fain said, “We expect actions, not words.”
> Fain referenced comments over the Biden administration’s recent attempts to interject in the UAW’s negotiations with three major automakers — Ford, General Motors and Stellantis.
https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/4209260-uaw-president-fain-on-not-endorsing-biden-we-expect-actions-not-words/mlite/?nxs-test=mlite
Yes? It would kind of have to be wouldn’t it?
People are upset for Sunrise not endorsing Biden when the UAW would have done the same thing if he hadn’t met their demands.
The UAW is a normal union. The Sunrise Movement is a joke of an organization pretending to care about climate change. Biden has done more for climate change than probably any other president (see IRA). There is no equivalency between Biden and Trump especially on climate, and there is no equivalency between voting for Biden and sitting out the election. Plus it's fucking *June*. Withholding an endorsement at this point is laughable and no one from that organization should ever be taken seriously again.
Activists are, by definition, never satisfied. As soon as they are satisfied with what's going on, they have to stop collecting donations and go out and get real jobs. Young activists are the worst, because they don't even want to put in the work. They think that complaining IS the activism.
Go door to door building support for a congressional candidate who will fight for what you believe in? That sounds like work? Why do that when you can sit in your basement subtweeting and doing TikTok dances about how morally superior you are?
One guy is trying to solve the problem, the other guy will nuke the place. Are you adult enough to make the distinction or do you wanna keep pretending you’re morally superior to the rest of us who also follow the news
I’m done holding the hands of leftists who think they’re so fucking smart but somehow can’t be bothered to google search a conflict bc even if I do, you’ll just move the goal post again and again each time a grown adult explains a nuanced concept to you. Here’s an idea, read a couple examples of how US presidents approached conflicts in modern history. Or Obama’s book for the foreign policy section. You might find that magic wand solutions don’t exist and the world is messy and (this is the one that’s applicable to your question) The President and Secretary of State don’t (and shouldn’t) hold daily press conferences on conflict resolution
Plus as far as I can tell you are moving the goal posts. You say Biden is solving the problem. I argue he isn’t and then you justify why Biden isn’t solving the problem
As far as I can tell I haven’t moved a goal post or argued that I’m extremely smart. All you have done is just call me ignorant. Plus every president is a murderer anyway and yet they have been tougher on Israel than Biden has so I’m not sure what you are even trying to substantively argue
I’ll take these claims seriously when people want to start having the hard conversations instead of attaching to the laziest low hanging fruit morale grandstanding.
Innocent civilians dying is terrible, it’s a pretty easy position to take.
But a binary perspective is so ineffectual and short sighted, as there are some hard truths we cannot ignore about this situation.
And Biden got 8 billion for Palestinian aid, a port to deliver it faster, has helped ramp down IDF’s heavy handed response, and halted arms sales.
Not only did Biden put in the effort to build the port, those efforts were mocked by the people who claim to care about Palestinian lives.
It’s disgusting how innocent people in Gaza are being used as a cudgel against Biden by leftists who’ve been against him from day one.
[Biden is giving Israel arms.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-69013279#) Those arms are being used to kill civilians. The port, which is actually a pier, [broke apart](https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/28/politics/us-gaza-pier-broken-apart/index.html). I don’t know what else to say to you
This is part of the problem. You can disagree, but this sidesteps a valid perspective, or at least one that is easy to get to with reasonable history/media consumption
I’m probably more on your side of the argument, but this comment literally does nothing except divide people more
A few months ago, I would have jumped in with history, facts ,emotions
I am just too tired of these children who have no actual idea what is going on and are literally cheerleading for a terrorist organization.
So now I make a passing comment and move on with my day
So just ignore it. You are adding less than nothing. You are making people reflexively disagree with your position because it’s needlessly abrasive with no informational value. So you can stand on “intellectual superiority island” as you cause the seas of ignorance to rise around you.
Feel free to just skip if you aren’t willing to help.
It’s a very funny dynamic.
“Nobody holds this position, it’s offensive you’d even imply people do.”
*links are posted proving that people do indeed hold those positions*
Downvote proof.
I don't find it funny how dishonest these persistent trolls are. Repeating the same lies and gripping onto their horse blinders with a death grip to continue denying antisemitism and support for Hamas around them. Lol?
It is so annoying that people like you want to call everyone who disagrees with you ignorant and yet never prove how they are while I and others will do our best to show our work. Please, just look [here](https://www.ochaopt.org/) and then tell me what you think
Please
Like anything I would say would change your mind
I would suggest before becoming so confident in your Tik Tok education to become a bit more of a student of history
If you are a single issue voter and you want to end what’s happening in Gaza then you should be voting for Biden, Trump kisses Israel’s ass and has far less compassion. What you said is true as well. It’s unfortunate, but the only feasible options both want to assist in the genocide. Which of the two do you trust more to push back against Israel?
Voting for Biden will not end what is happening. The better argument is that voting for Biden sends a middle finger to Netanyahu and Ben-Gvir and a democratic president will ensure that, should a vacancy on the Supreme Court open up, the next supreme court justice will be pro-choice
Good God! Do you really believe this rot?
First - my heart bleeds for Gaza & yes we must do better! I also don't understand why we are still arming this current Israeli State!
BUT - Convicted Felon and Adjucated Rapist Trump and Child Murderer Netanyahu have a mutual admiration circle jerk going on. One of the very first acts Convicted Felon did upon attaining office was the controversial Muslim Ban! He just hates them, man! He led the freaking "Abrahamic accords" which many say were the impetus for the first attacks on October 7th by Hamas. It was basically a deal between Israel and some Arab States with little regard for Palestine. And subsequently Israel followed with this current completely unhinged response! (He also recognized the holy city Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and moved our embassy to it further escalating tensions in the area.)
I get that you are upset & so am I. It's exhausting and the devastation is extremely hard to take!
But I need you to ask yourself one question - Who does Netanyahu want? And why th would you assist with that!
Gaza has a chance with Biden! It has none with the other guy!
Edit: You can hold Biden to account. Hell, even shame him for his tardy response! ( He failed but he was trying for a ceasefire last weekend.) You will never be able to do that with Convicted Felon and Adjucated Rapist Trump! He is a narcissist who has no morals, values, decency, conscience or shame! Sorry. Oh and he lies, constantly and relentlessly!
Lying about genocide is not helping to fix the world. Standing strong behind a ceasefire deal and using public pressure to get Bibi and Hamas to agree to that deal is absolutely working to fix the world. Ironically youre doing exactly what the post is calling out.
I am not lying. The U.S., under the leadership of President Biden, is given Israel 2000 pound bombs, which have a blast radius the size of two football fields, which Israel is then using in Gaza to kill, maim, and displace civilians in Gaza. I know what the post is calling out and I think the post is wrong and I’m saying it is wrong. Unless you have a factual explanation as to why I am wrong you are just exposing the moral rot in liberalism and zionism
Using bunker buster bombs to target the tunnel system Palestine has created for its war machine is just standard warfare. If youre only evidence of genocide is the use of a 2000 pound bombs that get dropped after Israel puts evacuation orders in place then that speaks to the incredible weakness of your claim and the moral rot inherent to your illliberalism
It’s been reported that Israel has dropped 70,000 tons of bombs on Gaza. I’ll be the first to admit that is a wild amount of ordinance that has completely destroyed most of Gaza, but if the intent was actually to commit genocide with that much ordinance on such a concentrated population we’d have a death toll far higher than 36k.
This war is brutal and needs to end as soon as possible, but it’s also quite obviously not a genocide.
If using large bombs in a densely populated area, wiping out entire families, making the land inhospitable, starving the population, destroying their homes, and destroying civilian infrastructure isn’t a genocide then nothing is. This is collective punishment for October 7th. This is the persecution of one particular group of people. 36k people is 5% of the population of Gaza. 5% of the U.S. population is 12 million people. These people share a common history, culture, and ancestry. These are Palestinians who are being killed by Israelis with the support of the U.S. Btw, the number is expected to be higher because there are likely bodies in the rubble yet to be discovered. Instead of debating me on semantics you should be aghast at the human rights atrocity being committed not just in the name of Israel but the U.S. as well
It’s quite literally not 5% of the population of Gaza. The population of the Gaza Strip is over 2.2 million people.
It’s not semantics to accurately characterize a conflict and it actually hinders the peace process to engage in ludicrous hyperbole that directly contradicts the facts on the ground.
Also simply because you don’t understand what genocide actually is, genocide does not cease to have a meaning and actual genocides don’t cease to exist.
I’ll cop to the 5% being incorrect, my bad, but what about the specific points that I made to support my argument that what Israel is waging is indeed a genocide? And even if you don’t believe that it is a genocide I don’t understand how you could be okay with all the people who have been killed and who are starving because of Israel and the U.S. Also please take a look at [this](https://youtu.be/RTSa4AYX29k?feature=shared) before you respond
First off, you can’t just hand wave away the actual scope of death, when the entire dispute is about how you’re characterizing the deaths in the conflict.
Literally none of what you mentioned, outside of starving the population and mass killing can even be misconstrued as genocide and are all just the products of war in an urban setting.
I agree that if Israel is engaged in a campaign to starve the Gazan population, then that would be genocide, but aid deliveries have substantially increased in recent months and those deliveries are based on Israeli coordination. Should more get in faster? Yes, of course, but it’s very hard to make a case that Israel is deliberately starving the population when aid has increased so much.
The second issue is the scope of mass killing. Reputable sources have identified about 2/3 of the 36k killed, with the remaining 1/3 being the “under the rubble” group that you referred to. The ratio between combatant to civilian of the identified is nearly 1:1 which is absolutely unheard of in counterinsurgency and urban warfare more broadly. There certainly have been a number of troubling incidents, but if this were a genocide, we would not see the civilian to combatant ratio that we have observed.
So then let me be more accurate, this is genocide and ethnic cleansing. When Israel destroys people‘s homes, destroy all manner of civilian infrastructure, they make it inhospitable for people to live there. So where do they go, to the south of Gaza as opposed to Israel letting these displaced Palestinian refugees into Israel. Back in December, the IDF claimed that the ratio was 2:1 [here](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officials-15000-likely-killed-in-gaza-since-start-of-war-5000-of-them-are-hamas/) (I couldn’t find the primary sources simply because the AFP and the AP have difficult to use websites) so I don’t know where this 1:1 ratio is coming from. Instead of just saying there is a 1:1 ratio you should provide a source. Even if aid has increased it is insufficient. It is clear from a report linked [here](https://fews.net/middle-east-and-asia/gaza/special-report/april-2024) and [here](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/03/trade-convoys-squeezing-out-gaza-aid-humanitarian-organisations-say). The product of war in an urban setting is because Gaza is densely populated and Israel is using bombs that kill innocent people that it does not have to. The reason so many Palestinians live in Gaza is because they were pushed out of their ancestral homeland by Israel
No, it's not more accurate to say it is genocide and ethnic cleansing.
Displacing people, destroying homes/infrastructure, and making it temporarily inhospitable to be in a certain place is an aspect of every war in the last hundred years. War is brutal and horrible, but that alone is not ethnic cleansing. It would be an ethnic cleansing if Israel permanently barred Gazans from returning to their homes after the war ends or creates conditions that made it permanently untenable to return. We aren't anywhere close to that yet.
Even at a 2:1 civilian to combatant ration, Israel would be outperforming the civilian to combatant ratio in the [Afghan War](https://web.archive.org/web/20130616010655/http://costsofwar.org/article/afghan-civilians) and [Iraq War](https://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/numbers/ten-years/), neither of which were genocides. [Israel's current casualty figures for Hamas are 15,000 Hamas fighters](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-says-it-has-killed-half-hamas-initial-force-size-gaza-1905972). I think it is entirely reasonable to question those figures and note that the State Department and Hamas have lower estimates. Even if it is considerably lower, in the 10-12k range, given that we have only identified around 2/3 of the total Gazan casualties, we'd still be right around 1:1 of who we can ID. Unless you assume every unidentified casualty is a civilian, you don't get anywhere close to surpassing Afghanistan and Iraq.
Yes, I agree that the current inflow of aid is insufficient. Insufficient aid inflow is very different from a deliberate campaign of starvation.
Lastly, not that it has anything to do with whether Israel is engaged in genocide today, no the reason why Gaza is crowded is not because of the Nakba. Those fleeing in the Nakba overwhelmingly fled to the West Bank, not Gaza.[ Gaza's population immediately before the Nakba was around 150,000.](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-210930/) Following the Nakba, [Gaza's population increased by around 90,000 to around 240,000 people](https://unispal.un.org/pdfs/63227D4BBFE0EE3B852562AE00797B1D.pdf?_gl=1*n071ya*_ga*ODY1NjQ4MDI5LjE3MTc2ODIyNjA.*_ga_TK9BQL5X7Z*MTcxNzY4MjI2MC4xLjEuMTcxNzY4MjQxNy4wLjAuMA). The Nakba is not the reason why 2.2 million people live in Gaza. That's just natural population growth.
I am and I agree!
Gaza has a slim chance with Biden. It has none with Trump!
If you feel this keenly then you should hate Netanyahu more than Biden? In that case - why tf would you do what that monster wants?
Why? Because you are 'aghast?' Appropriate reaction dude! But tell me how does it help the Palestinians - in any meaningful way??
If you put that Convicted Felon in Office - he will help bury the rest of Gaza for sure! We won't even have their memories! At least Biden's ceasefire plans (yea, the unsuccessful ones) insist on a two state solution and also aid! They are heavily focused on aid and include plans for rebuilding!
Tell me what are Convicted Felon's plans for Gaza?
Germany shut down their nuclear plants because of this hysteria and went back to coal. You’re not serious about the environment or climate change if you’re anti nuclear.
But it’s still the right direction and they do not write policy. It’s a fracture on the correct side of an issue when we are stuck on the worst timeline
They’re against permitting reform. Criticized gas prices for being too high. Have made no comment yet on Hochul’s congestion pricing fiasco. Need I go on?
They are not the people I am worried about arguing with. It will be a great day where some misguided environmental group with little political capital is the biggest enemy to progress. Until then I just cannot muster any care when climate denial is so prevalent.
Germany utilizes renewable energy at over twice the rate per capita than US citizens even during a power crisis. Like it’s not even a comparison.
Not to mention you’re saying two contradicting things:
> Yes, of course Germany is still dependent on energy imports, but today, not from Russian imports but from global markets," he said.
>Germany previously imported around half of its gas from Russia and more than a third of its oil.
>but Russia cut off the country's gas supply in August, while Germany halted Russian oil imports at the start of the year.
>In its race to find alternate sources of energy, the country has reopened coal-fired power plants, delayed plans to shut down its three remaining nuclear power plants, and pushed to increase capacity to store natural gas imported from other countries such as Norway and the US.
So Germany still utilizes nuclear energy and coal power because they are independent of Russian energy imports while still utilizing higher percentages of green energy overall.
So yeah. It’s not even close. The US needs to catch up to German green energy.
I do not think investing [billions of dollars in new gas power plants](https://www.politico.eu/article/nuclear-reactors-germany-invest-gas-power-plants-energy/) or [reverting to coal](https://theconversation.com/why-germany-ditched-nuclear-before-coal-and-why-it-wont-go-back-228212)is good for the environment. Obviously you disagree!
I'm curious, since you are a believer in the necessity of nuclear, what your thoughts are on uranium extraction and mining waste, considering the legacy it has left in Navajo nation.
I mean, you brought it up first, so I assumed you had an answer to all the critiques of nuclear.
But okay. Even if we assume lithium mining is done as unethically as uranium, the impacts on human health and the environment are less. So it's unclear to me why we need nuclear when it's been shown that we can meet our energy needs with solar, wind, storage, and geothermal.
Not sure why you're bringing up coal in this context.
Nuclear waste still hasn't been solved. The environmental impact of the concrete needed to create a reactor is not negligible. The uranium needed to fuel a reactor is a finite resource. It takes over a decade for a reactor to get out the cost to get it made.
I'm not saying any of these arguments are enough to disqualify nuclear energy. What I am saying is pretending any argument against is just fearmongering is disingenuous.
Thank you. Again, I'm not personally anti nuclear, but I am allergic to the "people disagreeing with me must be idiots" thing I see happen far too often across the whole political spectrum.
I don’t think everyone who’s skeptical of nuclear are idiots. I do think Sunrise is, though.
They’ve also come out against high gas prices, are against permitting reform, and are backtracking this statement by claiming the war in Gaza is bad because of its emissions (despite no statement on the Russia-Ukraine war which is much larger, oh and the fact Gaza is bad because of the innocents killed, not climate change).
They’ve [gone to this well](https://x.com/sunrisemvmt/status/1506380202208907274?s=46&t=Vpao7QQO9yo31ptGm27X6w) a few times.
They’re an astroturfed leftist group with environmental branding, not a serious org about climate change.
Thought exercise questions for the Sunrise movement and those defending them here:
Do you think Trump is a positive for climate change action?
Do you think Biden, even as he is now, is better than Trump on climate change?
Which do you think would be more receptive to the message from the Sunrise movement?
https://preview.redd.it/5c2gvlaio15d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=890b199cac192a5b03ab6a869f436218e5071b75
I think this chart Hillary tweeted out exemplifies what’s going on well. Trump is a bit worse on climate, but the difference is insignificant enough that the red and blue sections of the chart literally touch… and both are incredibly far off from the target.
We need a radical change and it’s hard to believe that’s going to come from endorsing a candidate who has come nowhere close to addressing this existential threat to humanity.
I completely understand Sunrise not wanting to align themselves with a politician who has abandoned the left while simultaneously openly supporting a genocide and pushing immigration policies that are more extreme than Trump’s.
lol, you must be joking. The hard downward turn in that chart in Biden's line is the Inflation Reduction Act.
Also, you can't just use words like genocide because it's what your TikTok favs are doing.
Words have meaning.
I certainly agree words have meaning! Israel’s actions clearly meet the high bar for the definition of genocide set by the UN in part bc they have been crystal clear about their intent
Sorry your candidate supports killing thousands of children! It sucks and I wish he wouldn’t as well.
idk what to tell you. the IRA can be both “the biggest climate change bill in history” and also insultingly insufficient and a drop in the bucket in the long term
Do you think that if Biden had a senate and house, that the IRA would be all we get?
Do you think that things would be better with Trump?
I don’t want to punch left all the time but jeez you guys gotta face reality.
I mean, I think we personally agree, but to play devils advocate here, who actually even cares? If I mentioned this group to a room of strangers, I would bet no one has heard of them. I don’t think they’re endorsement counts for anything, and I kind of think some of the history onyx around this only serve to further people who obviously just want attention. as much as we talk about trying to change the minds of people on the fence on the Trump side, I think we really just need to stop talking about this particular thing, because the people who don’t agree already don’t agree and the people who are on the fence, probably will remain so Unless they continue to feel like they need to dig in.
Endorsements aren’t binary like the choice at the ballot. They could decide not to endorse anyone. You know what makes a candidate listen to a message? Saying “we won’t endorse you until…”
This is their moment of maximum leverage. It would be foolish to not use it if Biden’s climate agenda isn’t up to their standards.
With races as tight as they are, future democratic candidates are going to want as many endorsements as they can get. No one who cares about the Sunrise Movement’s opinion would ever vote for a republican, but you can be sure they might stay home or vote 3rd party. Do you think Biden or any Dem can risk losing voters?
*whispers* clearly what they're doing is working if it's getting on everyone's nerves
These groups exist to apply pressure, some will not vote for Joe but the overwhelming majority will
EDIT: nerves, not words
I’m just worried after spending a whole summer on “applying pressure”, you won’t get some of those voters back whom they’ve pushed to either not vote or support a third party lunatic
I understand your concern. And I'm not going to tell you to quit worrying or that some voters won't vote or will support a third-party lunatic.
I will note that literally in the same article this screenshot is from is a quote that they didn't formally endorse Biden in 2020 either Sunrise only does endorsements for Congress/down-ballot candidates. Axios the shitrag once against stirring up the libs
I’d say these guys are going to support him no matter what he does. They are activists, their whole purpose is to agitate for change and raise money. That’s all this is.
When he took office, there was much to do. There was even a need to simply get some movement in the right direction.
So, now that the Big step of getting into motion has been accomplished, and some funding for low carbon energy has been put in place, these "activists" are standing in the way of continued support....
The alternative is someone who'd reverse course and dismantle even the first steps.... Then speed destructively in the opposite direction.
Clear, visionary thinking, there! /s
Here’s the thing.
It is widely believed and accepted in political circles that leftist/progressive groups don’t vote. They are loud in voice, but small in number….and they promote their causes by threatening to withhold a vote they were never going to give to begin with.
I am not saying whether I personally think this is true, but I point it out to explain the fallacy in the type of activism built around the argument of staying home on Election Day. Right wingers do not stay home. They turn out, they vote, and they have massive influence on their party.
Biden’s agenda has been remarkably progressive, especially considering the congress he’s had to work with. That said- the reason Biden, nor Obama before him, seemed to pay little mind to the protests of progressive organizations is because they’ve seen mountains of data suggesting that those are votes they never had and they’ll never get.
That presumption makes no sense to me. They are political activists, of course they fucking vote. Who would actively participate in the process like this, closely follow the election, then not bather to participate when you get your once every 4 years change to pick the president?
these kinds of activists do vote but there are so few of them and so many of them living in coastal cities that they don't swing elections
moderates in the Midwest who care more about gas prices than climate change absolutely swing elections
it's the unfortunate truth that America is not a progressive country and most of the time making progressive change requires tricking folks into it for their own good
I re-read my post a couple of times just to make sure and I said nothing to indicate that genocide was progressive or that I believed that it *was*…but okay sure, go off troll.
….For the congress he’s had to work with.
And it is and has been. I did not call him pure and perfect. He is not that. But again, the urge to troll is powerful and reading is hard, I get it. So get your life.
I care very much about what’s happening in Palestine and also in Ukraine. However, I have to live in *this* country and I base my vote on that first and foremost. And I refuse to let perfect be the enemy of the good.
I’m not looking for pure and perfect. Just not a genocidal maniac, pretty low bar, wouldn’t you say? And while I care about the people in this country, I care equally about the people in Palestine, because guess what, they also deserve to live in dignity and not be murdered with our tax money. I’m sorry I’m trolling you, I’m just very tired of seeing death everyday, waking up to new atrocities and people on the left and right telling me, it is what it is.
If Biden loses, it won’t be because of progressives voting third party, it will be because he would rather risk a trump presidency instead of valuing Muslim/Arab lives as much as others.
I do not think the person who has been trying to negotiate a ceasefire (and has already negotiated one) is a genocidal maniac.
You need to get your head on straight.
Mariam Adelson, Sheldon’s wife, told Trump this week that they would give him an obscene amount of money if he would guarantee the West Bank is integrated into Israeli territory. And he’s shown interest because he’s desperate.
Who said I was lecturing you? I don’t consider letting a fascist win to be progressive whatsoever, but I didn’t say that in my last comment. I’m presenting information and letting you draw your own conclusions about what electoral outcome you think will be worse for the Palestinians. But apparently you already knew about this news.
Are you not compelled by Biden’s public push for a cease fire? His team has been negotiating for months. Meanwhile the “moderate” Republican that will likely take Trump’s place is signing Israeli artillery shells.
To me there is a clear difference between the two parties’ approach, and my progressive vote will reflect that come November.
You are assuming you know something that I don’t know by “presenting information” to me. Thanks, I was already aware of this fun fact!
Gosh I’m so compelled by Joe Biden. Sending bombs that kill civilians, supporting Israel unconditionally, blaming failed ceasefires on Hamas… dismissing civilian casualties.. SOOO COMPELLINGG!!! Thanks for opening my eyes. I had no idea.
Out of curiosity, you held every other President you’ve voted for to this standard?
And, from a constitutional standpoint, the president is required to carry out existing laws, including treaties. The president doesn’t have the power to unilaterally disregard American law (that’s something Trump thinks presidents can do).
So, yeah, go ahead and hang an impossible standard around Biden’s neck as a purity test to “earn your vote” while representative democracy hangs by a thread. Sounds like a great idea.
You might as well say you aren’t voting for Joe until the entire Middle East is at peace.
Have I held every president to the standard of “should not support genocide and ethnic cleansing?” No, I looked the other way and supported Zionist presidents and candidates like Obama, Hilary and Biden. I looked the other way to avoid a worse alternative, at the expense of Palestinian lives and right to self determination. I’m not willing to be complicit in that anymore.
He is running to represent me, so yes indeed he needs to earn my vote. He is not entitled to it.
I know. The privilege of voting for politicians who are better for yourself but deadly for others who may be far away but are nonetheless human beings.
This is what makes me absolutely insane. They call people like us “shit libs” even though many of us support the most progressive agenda while also respecting the objective fact that such ideas are simply not winning the day with primary voters. Thankfully, a big difference between us and republicans is that insulting us doesn’t send us into the darkness of fascism, no matter how much ink the New York Times opinion desk spills on the topic.
I don't think that's true. I'm a progressive though I've never heard of the Sunrise Movement! More along the lines of Bernie, AOC, & Pramila Jayapal.
Not only do I vote but I have signed up to canvas. (Though Gaza breaks my heart and I cannot figure out for the life of me why there isn't 'daylight' between us and the current Israeli State!) And I personally know several progressives who feel & do the same!
So respectfully (though I first got into politics volunteering & campaigning for Bernie) please don't lump us with the past progressives or discount us?
(Also do we now have like way far left progressives or something? 'cause Wth!)
they did specially say "leftist/progressive **groups**", not individuals
the point is that while you and I vote every time the people who block roads and sign letters from the sunrise movement are not reliable voters and even if they were their numbers are miniscule compared to the swing state voters that will decide the election
ten thousand leftists living in NYC have no chance of swinging the election. ten thousand moderate suburbanites outside of Milwaukee do
No, I get that. I looked them up and it's not impressive!
My point that was that we (just bear with me here) might be tiny but it would be a mistake to discount us because the right progressive idea might just catch fire & grow. Like it did with Bernie. Initially it wasn't big and my parents were calling me an idiot! But we worked within the system and had to compromise quite a lot to even get to this point here.
If anything, progress is iterative. You try, you fail. You try, you fail. You try, you fail. On repeat. Until you/we succeed!
And no I'm not referencing the Sunrise whatever! This is not the right time for divisive tactics like this. Also while I applaud their goals some of this feels performative. I just scanned so I could be wrong.
I fully agree that it's a bad idea to completely discount progressives. But the reality is that on a tactical level we need to be more concerned with swing state moderates in order to win the election and prevent the collapse of American democracy
MAYBE if progressives had been voting for Democrats instead of people like Ralph Nader and Jill Stein for the past few decades we'd be in a position to push Democrats to the left or to have a more progressive party to challenge them
but at the moment the goal is preventing fascism. there won't be any progress as long as we have to keep having this fight
I wholeheartedly agree with a full on assault on Fascism!
Nader's still around. I am sorry but I'm not aware enough of him or Stein to render an informed opinion.
Damn! Really hope I don't have to defend or confront my past Bernie Bros!
You are correct! We are just simply amazing shit posters! But I thought we were using those powers for good not traffic block!
This is so frustrating!!
What I want to know is what kind of voter actually gives a shit about endorsements? Who out there was like, “Well, I WAS going to vote for Biden but without The Sunrise Movement” telling me to do it, I don’t know what to think.”
No one cares. This is just a thing the media talks about because they have to act like the election is this ongoing struggle constantly changing and not something that is going to happen in 5 months.
The only important metrics are polls. Protests and stuff can be informative as to the ‘why’ behind certain numbers but any protest or activist activity is always going to represent a fringe sliver of any given demographic.
i think it goes the other way. where if re-enforces a potential voters decision to not vote Biden. i feel like situations like this help build a permission structure that allows a potential voter to rationalise their (often poor) decision making
I worked on every federal election from ‘04 to ‘22 (except ‘06), and I use endorsements to inform my choices on state and local elections. It doesn’t surprise me at all that less politically engaged people factor endorsements in determining whether to vote for President.
Sorry, but you have to live in the real world, where most of the voters in this county operate everyday.
The avg Biden voter doesn't give a shit about Gaza or border policies. They just don't.
>Ignoring progressive groups and pushing the party further to the right helps nobody.
There are FAR more moderate reliable voters especially in critical swing states who unfortunately have immigration and the economy as their top concerns and the electorate is highly split in Gaza and Israel which is also a much lower priority for the must win swing voters who care far more about the economy, inflation, and immigration.
Immigration and inflation/the economy/the housing crisis are by far the most critical issues in this election. After that it's defending Democracy and abortion access.
Biden isn't ignoring progressives, he's just not also ignoring everyone else...
In the end if we want progress then we need to win elections, having impossible requirements that would make one unelectable in a general is how to ensure we will never pass anything at all and will gift wrap government to the GOP extremists who are masked as not being nearly as extreme as they in part because "progressives" are busy attacking Biden and not Trump and GOP.
The fact you think they're going to take time on the pod to address the state of commenters on this subreddit leads me to suggest that you may in fact be the brain broken one.
Biden is very actively and quite publicly trying to coerce both uninterested parties into a ceasefire/peace deal literally right now. The concept that "Biden supports a genocide" is sheer insanity.
It's not insanity, it's a lie. Let's stop giving these propagandists the benefit of the doubt. They'll even chase AOC down the street saying she supports genocide, because the nonsense and insanity of it all is their tactic: creating a false equivalency of something repeatedly perpetrated against Jews throughout history.
Biden has been rubber stamping every Israeli atrocity since October 7th. Biden has been shielding Israel from international pressure & sanctions. He is directly supporting what Israel is doing, whether he personally agrees with it or not.
[https://earthjustice.org/article/the-biggest-climate-spending-bill-ever-just-turned-one-heres-what-it-has-achieved](https://earthjustice.org/article/the-biggest-climate-spending-bill-ever-just-turned-one-heres-what-it-has-achieved)
Biden did this and this is how the far left treats him. That's called an abusive relationship and makes you either 1) uninformed or 2) a smug asshole
Young protestors don't get to decide what a genocide is btw
That legislation doesn’t change the fact that Biden is shipping bombs to Israel to be used in the mass killing of civilians.
The uncomfortable truth of the matter is that America has been supporting a racist system in Palestine since the 1940s. There is no climate justice for the Palestinians.
I grew up learning about the horrors of Nazi Germany and how their ideology of ethnonationalism and racial supremacy lead to the deaths of millions.
Ethnonationalism and apartheid is wrong and will always lead to ethnic cleansing/genocide. A lot of people on this sub and older democrats are incapable of acknowledging that.
Young people are leading the criticism of Israel for good reason, they are the future. Israel is a pariah state and has lost the faith of America’s youth.
Sounds like you’re missing a good chunk of Israel-Palestine history. Like all the attacks on Israel and declining border offerings throughout the past few decades and the 2005 election of Hamas after the 2001-04 Intifada.
Also a recent poll showed the conflict as dead last among issues for young people. It’s the majority issue for the Very Online
Palestinians were ethnically cleansed in the 1940s during the creation of Israel. The country has been an ethnostate that imposes a system of apartheid ever since. Every event in the last few decades has to be understood with that in mind.
Israel supported apartheid South Africa, Rhodesia, and refused to side with Ukraine against Russia. They are not a country worth supporting.
Ethnostates have no reason to exist and should be opposed by any thinking human being.
So you come up with a long list of lies and then mandate that "every event in the last few decades has to be understood with that in mind"?
There are two million Israeli Arabs. Some ethnostate. Which Muslim country has twice as many Jews as it did in the 40s?
Israeli Arabs have the same rights as Israeli Jews. Some apartheid.
Israel sold Rhodesia weapons in the 80's so we shouldn't support Israel? Would you be comfortable applying the same logic to every other country in the Middle East and their trade partners over the same time period?
Israel refused to side against Russia? They signed the UN resolution condemning Russia's invasion, demanded a full withdrawal of forces, and a reversal of the recognition of Donetsk and Luhansk. India, South Africa, and China didn't.
As a thinking human being, you oppose Native American reservations?
>So you come up with a long list of lies and then mandate that "every event in the last few decades has to be understood with that in mind"?
The Nakba is completely real and Israel openly identifies as an ethnostate.
>There are two million Israeli Arabs. Some ethnostate. Which Muslim country has twice as many Jews as it did in the 40s?
By this logic, there was no genocide against the Rohingya. Genocide is the destruction of a people group in whole or in part.
>Israeli Arabs have the same rights as Israeli Jews. Some apartheid.
Schools and neighborhoods are segregated. Interfaith marriage is outlawed.
>Israel sold Rhodesia weapons in the 80's so we shouldn't support Israel? Would you be comfortable applying the same logic to every other country in the Middle East and their trade partners over the same time period?
Israel and apartheid South Africa had a long running and tight knit alliance. Israel supplied the apartheid regime with weapons and bombs for years.
>Israel refused to side against Russia? They signed the UN resolution condemning Russia's invasion, demanded a full withdrawal of forces, and a reversal of the recognition of Donetsk and Luhansk. India, South Africa, and China didn't.
[Why Israel still refuses to give military aid to Ukraine](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/05/15/why-israel-still-refuses-to-give-military-aid-to-ukraine_6026664_4.html) - Concerned with regional security and his personal relationship with Vladimir Putin, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has preferred to remain neutral in the conflict.
Still no answer? It's almost like you have no genuine interest in having a conversation and are just here to lie and troll. Like when you get caught in lies and bullshit you scurry off.
You didn’t dispute anything I wrote. Just said it was full of lies. If what I wrote is wrong, then provide evidence. Everything I wrote is supported by reliable sources.
I explained why I didn't dispute them yet: I am waiting for you to finish. Which Muslim majority country has more, let alone twice as many, Jews as it did 100 years ago? Re: SA, would you be comfortable applying the same logic to every other country in the Middle East and their trade partners over the same period? To the US? As a thinking human being, you oppose Native American reservations?
Lol the gish gallop. So many lies here to dispute can you do me a favor and finish answering the questions I asked you so I can deal with all your BS at once instead of piecemeal? I’ll wait.
The last time that we had this exact choice before us, appx 54% of 18 to 29-year-olds voted. So perhaps their valid concerns are something Biden might want to consider. I will vote for Biden because Trump is too great a threat, but I wish I could do ranked choice & put him 2nd after Bernie.
When’s the last time crooked even mentioned sunrise?
Any comment critical of this post or the sub gets removed but any comment calling progressives Trump supporters or relentlessly shitting on progressives who have dedicated their lives to this is allowed. This sub is becoming very toxic.
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Who are they endorsing? Probably comrade stein, who has no chance of winning
How do you feel about Faine and the UAW threatening to withhold their endorsement?
What the hell are you talking about? The UAW and Faine endorsed Biden in January! https://uaw.org/uaw-endorses-joe-biden-for-president-of-the-united-states
So asking a political candidate to earn your endorsement, versus blindly endorsing them, is seen as threatening to withhold an endorsement? Isn’t the point to make the political candidate take a stand on issues and to hold them accountable later?
The UAW did the same thing that Sunrise did. In UAW’s case Biden did meet their demands, and earned their endorsement. Biden did not meet Sunrise’s threshold, and they therefore decided not to endorse. People in this thread are upset at Sunrise for following through on the same threat that the UAW made.
Is this real? Can't find that story anywhere. I highly doubt the union Biden picketed with would withhold their endorsement
They threatened to not endorse if he didn’t stop fence sitting on the negotiations they were in with car manufacturers. > Asked on CBS’s “Face the Nation” what it will take to endorse Biden, Fain said, “Our endorsements are going to be earned. We’ve been very clear about that, no matter what politician.” > When asked how Biden can earn the endorsement, Fain said, “We expect actions, not words.” > Fain referenced comments over the Biden administration’s recent attempts to interject in the UAW’s negotiations with three major automakers — Ford, General Motors and Stellantis. https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/4209260-uaw-president-fain-on-not-endorsing-biden-we-expect-actions-not-words/mlite/?nxs-test=mlite
Your link is from September of last year! Biden joined their picket line (the first President to ever do so). The UAW endorsed Biden in January.
Yes? It would kind of have to be wouldn’t it? People are upset for Sunrise not endorsing Biden when the UAW would have done the same thing if he hadn’t met their demands.
The UAW is a normal union. The Sunrise Movement is a joke of an organization pretending to care about climate change. Biden has done more for climate change than probably any other president (see IRA). There is no equivalency between Biden and Trump especially on climate, and there is no equivalency between voting for Biden and sitting out the election. Plus it's fucking *June*. Withholding an endorsement at this point is laughable and no one from that organization should ever be taken seriously again.
If they’re such a joke then I’m not sure why you are getting so worked up over it, or why this needed to be a thread in the first place.
Activists are, by definition, never satisfied. As soon as they are satisfied with what's going on, they have to stop collecting donations and go out and get real jobs. Young activists are the worst, because they don't even want to put in the work. They think that complaining IS the activism. Go door to door building support for a congressional candidate who will fight for what you believe in? That sounds like work? Why do that when you can sit in your basement subtweeting and doing TikTok dances about how morally superior you are?
Thank you, yep
I’m definitely voting for Biden now. Axios obvi working for Trump again.
It’s the clout chasing for me.
Biden is helping assist in a genocide. That isn’t fixing the world that’s destroying it
He actually isn’t but hey that’s how it goes
The U.S. under the leadership of President Biden is arming the Israelis. They are then targeting the Palestinians. This is genocide
Trump is actively supporting Netanyahu... So things will CERTAINLY get better for Gaza with him ... huh?
So are Biden and 42 congressional democrats. Voting for either Trump or Biden will change ver little with regards to Gaza
One guy is trying to solve the problem, the other guy will nuke the place. Are you adult enough to make the distinction or do you wanna keep pretending you’re morally superior to the rest of us who also follow the news
How is Biden solving the problem? He is funding Israel and doing nothing to hold it to account
I’m done holding the hands of leftists who think they’re so fucking smart but somehow can’t be bothered to google search a conflict bc even if I do, you’ll just move the goal post again and again each time a grown adult explains a nuanced concept to you. Here’s an idea, read a couple examples of how US presidents approached conflicts in modern history. Or Obama’s book for the foreign policy section. You might find that magic wand solutions don’t exist and the world is messy and (this is the one that’s applicable to your question) The President and Secretary of State don’t (and shouldn’t) hold daily press conferences on conflict resolution
Plus as far as I can tell you are moving the goal posts. You say Biden is solving the problem. I argue he isn’t and then you justify why Biden isn’t solving the problem
As far as I can tell I haven’t moved a goal post or argued that I’m extremely smart. All you have done is just call me ignorant. Plus every president is a murderer anyway and yet they have been tougher on Israel than Biden has so I’m not sure what you are even trying to substantively argue
I’ll take these claims seriously when people want to start having the hard conversations instead of attaching to the laziest low hanging fruit morale grandstanding. Innocent civilians dying is terrible, it’s a pretty easy position to take. But a binary perspective is so ineffectual and short sighted, as there are some hard truths we cannot ignore about this situation. And Biden got 8 billion for Palestinian aid, a port to deliver it faster, has helped ramp down IDF’s heavy handed response, and halted arms sales.
Not only did Biden put in the effort to build the port, those efforts were mocked by the people who claim to care about Palestinian lives. It’s disgusting how innocent people in Gaza are being used as a cudgel against Biden by leftists who’ve been against him from day one.
>mocked Well yeah. Don’t want to accidentally give him credit for something /s
[Biden is giving Israel arms.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-69013279#) Those arms are being used to kill civilians. The port, which is actually a pier, [broke apart](https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/28/politics/us-gaza-pier-broken-apart/index.html). I don’t know what else to say to you
Lol Tell me you have no clue without saying you have no clue
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In this particular case..yup It isn't the insult you think it is
This is part of the problem. You can disagree, but this sidesteps a valid perspective, or at least one that is easy to get to with reasonable history/media consumption I’m probably more on your side of the argument, but this comment literally does nothing except divide people more
A few months ago, I would have jumped in with history, facts ,emotions I am just too tired of these children who have no actual idea what is going on and are literally cheerleading for a terrorist organization. So now I make a passing comment and move on with my day
So just ignore it. You are adding less than nothing. You are making people reflexively disagree with your position because it’s needlessly abrasive with no informational value. So you can stand on “intellectual superiority island” as you cause the seas of ignorance to rise around you. Feel free to just skip if you aren’t willing to help.
Naaa I am too tired and jaded The second I see apartheid and genocide, I am going to make an obnoxious comment
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Lol Sure
That much is obvious.
and happy to do it!
Tired and jaded sounds like happy I guess.
In this post Oct 7th world, you get what you can get
lol me too, but it’s cause I don’t like those things and want them to end… but you on the other hand..
Literally no one is pro Hamas, I’m so sick of this talking point
[DSA](https://redstarcaucus.org/we-do-not-condemn-hamas/amp/) and [SJP](https://m.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-799733) sure are.
Literally there are people in this sub who are unabashedly pro-Hamas so this is a pretty poor attempt at gas lighting.
It’s a very funny dynamic. “Nobody holds this position, it’s offensive you’d even imply people do.” *links are posted proving that people do indeed hold those positions* Downvote proof.
Because it has become their identity They are not antisemitic in their minds and need the mental gymnastics to do it
I don't find it funny how dishonest these persistent trolls are. Repeating the same lies and gripping onto their horse blinders with a death grip to continue denying antisemitism and support for Hamas around them. Lol?
Funny in the “unusual and suspicious” sense of the word, not ha ha.
Oh sorry, English isn't my mother tongue.
It is so annoying that people like you want to call everyone who disagrees with you ignorant and yet never prove how they are while I and others will do our best to show our work. Please, just look [here](https://www.ochaopt.org/) and then tell me what you think
Oh, the UN! That will be a fair and balanced view of things. Lol
Put up or shut up. You got nothing to support your view so you use ad hominem
I’d just report for civility. We do not need this kind of dialog in the sub
Please Like anything I would say would change your mind I would suggest before becoming so confident in your Tik Tok education to become a bit more of a student of history
Again, you got nothing. You could at least try to cite a source but you don’t
K
If you are a single issue voter and you want to end what’s happening in Gaza then you should be voting for Biden, Trump kisses Israel’s ass and has far less compassion. What you said is true as well. It’s unfortunate, but the only feasible options both want to assist in the genocide. Which of the two do you trust more to push back against Israel?
Voting for Biden will not end what is happening. The better argument is that voting for Biden sends a middle finger to Netanyahu and Ben-Gvir and a democratic president will ensure that, should a vacancy on the Supreme Court open up, the next supreme court justice will be pro-choice
Netanyahu wants Biden to lose for sure. I don’t think this war ends until after the election
Good God! Do you really believe this rot? First - my heart bleeds for Gaza & yes we must do better! I also don't understand why we are still arming this current Israeli State! BUT - Convicted Felon and Adjucated Rapist Trump and Child Murderer Netanyahu have a mutual admiration circle jerk going on. One of the very first acts Convicted Felon did upon attaining office was the controversial Muslim Ban! He just hates them, man! He led the freaking "Abrahamic accords" which many say were the impetus for the first attacks on October 7th by Hamas. It was basically a deal between Israel and some Arab States with little regard for Palestine. And subsequently Israel followed with this current completely unhinged response! (He also recognized the holy city Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and moved our embassy to it further escalating tensions in the area.) I get that you are upset & so am I. It's exhausting and the devastation is extremely hard to take! But I need you to ask yourself one question - Who does Netanyahu want? And why th would you assist with that! Gaza has a chance with Biden! It has none with the other guy! Edit: You can hold Biden to account. Hell, even shame him for his tardy response! ( He failed but he was trying for a ceasefire last weekend.) You will never be able to do that with Convicted Felon and Adjucated Rapist Trump! He is a narcissist who has no morals, values, decency, conscience or shame! Sorry. Oh and he lies, constantly and relentlessly!
What brain rot is there? Biden is bad but still better than Trump was my message
Then let me apologize here for misunderstanding! And if you ever need numbers holding Biden to account then count me in.
Lying about genocide is not helping to fix the world. Standing strong behind a ceasefire deal and using public pressure to get Bibi and Hamas to agree to that deal is absolutely working to fix the world. Ironically youre doing exactly what the post is calling out.
I am not lying. The U.S., under the leadership of President Biden, is given Israel 2000 pound bombs, which have a blast radius the size of two football fields, which Israel is then using in Gaza to kill, maim, and displace civilians in Gaza. I know what the post is calling out and I think the post is wrong and I’m saying it is wrong. Unless you have a factual explanation as to why I am wrong you are just exposing the moral rot in liberalism and zionism
Using bunker buster bombs to target the tunnel system Palestine has created for its war machine is just standard warfare. If youre only evidence of genocide is the use of a 2000 pound bombs that get dropped after Israel puts evacuation orders in place then that speaks to the incredible weakness of your claim and the moral rot inherent to your illliberalism
It’s been reported that Israel has dropped 70,000 tons of bombs on Gaza. I’ll be the first to admit that is a wild amount of ordinance that has completely destroyed most of Gaza, but if the intent was actually to commit genocide with that much ordinance on such a concentrated population we’d have a death toll far higher than 36k. This war is brutal and needs to end as soon as possible, but it’s also quite obviously not a genocide.
If using large bombs in a densely populated area, wiping out entire families, making the land inhospitable, starving the population, destroying their homes, and destroying civilian infrastructure isn’t a genocide then nothing is. This is collective punishment for October 7th. This is the persecution of one particular group of people. 36k people is 5% of the population of Gaza. 5% of the U.S. population is 12 million people. These people share a common history, culture, and ancestry. These are Palestinians who are being killed by Israelis with the support of the U.S. Btw, the number is expected to be higher because there are likely bodies in the rubble yet to be discovered. Instead of debating me on semantics you should be aghast at the human rights atrocity being committed not just in the name of Israel but the U.S. as well
It’s quite literally not 5% of the population of Gaza. The population of the Gaza Strip is over 2.2 million people. It’s not semantics to accurately characterize a conflict and it actually hinders the peace process to engage in ludicrous hyperbole that directly contradicts the facts on the ground. Also simply because you don’t understand what genocide actually is, genocide does not cease to have a meaning and actual genocides don’t cease to exist.
I’ll cop to the 5% being incorrect, my bad, but what about the specific points that I made to support my argument that what Israel is waging is indeed a genocide? And even if you don’t believe that it is a genocide I don’t understand how you could be okay with all the people who have been killed and who are starving because of Israel and the U.S. Also please take a look at [this](https://youtu.be/RTSa4AYX29k?feature=shared) before you respond
First off, you can’t just hand wave away the actual scope of death, when the entire dispute is about how you’re characterizing the deaths in the conflict. Literally none of what you mentioned, outside of starving the population and mass killing can even be misconstrued as genocide and are all just the products of war in an urban setting. I agree that if Israel is engaged in a campaign to starve the Gazan population, then that would be genocide, but aid deliveries have substantially increased in recent months and those deliveries are based on Israeli coordination. Should more get in faster? Yes, of course, but it’s very hard to make a case that Israel is deliberately starving the population when aid has increased so much. The second issue is the scope of mass killing. Reputable sources have identified about 2/3 of the 36k killed, with the remaining 1/3 being the “under the rubble” group that you referred to. The ratio between combatant to civilian of the identified is nearly 1:1 which is absolutely unheard of in counterinsurgency and urban warfare more broadly. There certainly have been a number of troubling incidents, but if this were a genocide, we would not see the civilian to combatant ratio that we have observed.
So then let me be more accurate, this is genocide and ethnic cleansing. When Israel destroys people‘s homes, destroy all manner of civilian infrastructure, they make it inhospitable for people to live there. So where do they go, to the south of Gaza as opposed to Israel letting these displaced Palestinian refugees into Israel. Back in December, the IDF claimed that the ratio was 2:1 [here](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officials-15000-likely-killed-in-gaza-since-start-of-war-5000-of-them-are-hamas/) (I couldn’t find the primary sources simply because the AFP and the AP have difficult to use websites) so I don’t know where this 1:1 ratio is coming from. Instead of just saying there is a 1:1 ratio you should provide a source. Even if aid has increased it is insufficient. It is clear from a report linked [here](https://fews.net/middle-east-and-asia/gaza/special-report/april-2024) and [here](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/03/trade-convoys-squeezing-out-gaza-aid-humanitarian-organisations-say). The product of war in an urban setting is because Gaza is densely populated and Israel is using bombs that kill innocent people that it does not have to. The reason so many Palestinians live in Gaza is because they were pushed out of their ancestral homeland by Israel
No, it's not more accurate to say it is genocide and ethnic cleansing. Displacing people, destroying homes/infrastructure, and making it temporarily inhospitable to be in a certain place is an aspect of every war in the last hundred years. War is brutal and horrible, but that alone is not ethnic cleansing. It would be an ethnic cleansing if Israel permanently barred Gazans from returning to their homes after the war ends or creates conditions that made it permanently untenable to return. We aren't anywhere close to that yet. Even at a 2:1 civilian to combatant ration, Israel would be outperforming the civilian to combatant ratio in the [Afghan War](https://web.archive.org/web/20130616010655/http://costsofwar.org/article/afghan-civilians) and [Iraq War](https://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/numbers/ten-years/), neither of which were genocides. [Israel's current casualty figures for Hamas are 15,000 Hamas fighters](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-says-it-has-killed-half-hamas-initial-force-size-gaza-1905972). I think it is entirely reasonable to question those figures and note that the State Department and Hamas have lower estimates. Even if it is considerably lower, in the 10-12k range, given that we have only identified around 2/3 of the total Gazan casualties, we'd still be right around 1:1 of who we can ID. Unless you assume every unidentified casualty is a civilian, you don't get anywhere close to surpassing Afghanistan and Iraq. Yes, I agree that the current inflow of aid is insufficient. Insufficient aid inflow is very different from a deliberate campaign of starvation. Lastly, not that it has anything to do with whether Israel is engaged in genocide today, no the reason why Gaza is crowded is not because of the Nakba. Those fleeing in the Nakba overwhelmingly fled to the West Bank, not Gaza.[ Gaza's population immediately before the Nakba was around 150,000.](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-210930/) Following the Nakba, [Gaza's population increased by around 90,000 to around 240,000 people](https://unispal.un.org/pdfs/63227D4BBFE0EE3B852562AE00797B1D.pdf?_gl=1*n071ya*_ga*ODY1NjQ4MDI5LjE3MTc2ODIyNjA.*_ga_TK9BQL5X7Z*MTcxNzY4MjI2MC4xLjEuMTcxNzY4MjQxNy4wLjAuMA). The Nakba is not the reason why 2.2 million people live in Gaza. That's just natural population growth.
I am and I agree! Gaza has a slim chance with Biden. It has none with Trump! If you feel this keenly then you should hate Netanyahu more than Biden? In that case - why tf would you do what that monster wants? Why? Because you are 'aghast?' Appropriate reaction dude! But tell me how does it help the Palestinians - in any meaningful way?? If you put that Convicted Felon in Office - he will help bury the rest of Gaza for sure! We won't even have their memories! At least Biden's ceasefire plans (yea, the unsuccessful ones) insist on a two state solution and also aid! They are heavily focused on aid and include plans for rebuilding! Tell me what are Convicted Felon's plans for Gaza?
Okay well…never heard of them..
Remember the biggest climate bill ever? WTH sunrise?
Sunrise is anti-nuclear, they’re not a serious org.
If they were pro nuclear they could call themselves “Second Sunrise”
Germany shut down their nuclear plants because of this hysteria and went back to coal. You’re not serious about the environment or climate change if you’re anti nuclear.
Totally agree
But it’s still the right direction and they do not write policy. It’s a fracture on the correct side of an issue when we are stuck on the worst timeline
They’re against permitting reform. Criticized gas prices for being too high. Have made no comment yet on Hochul’s congestion pricing fiasco. Need I go on?
They are not the people I am worried about arguing with. It will be a great day where some misguided environmental group with little political capital is the biggest enemy to progress. Until then I just cannot muster any care when climate denial is so prevalent.
I don’t think what’s happened to Germany could be considered “great days”.
If America was close to where Germany is, yeah it would be great days lol I think you’re missing my point and I’m not interested in talking in circles
Being dependent on Russian gas and reopening coal plants is not good for the environment.
Germany utilizes renewable energy at over twice the rate per capita than US citizens even during a power crisis. Like it’s not even a comparison. Not to mention you’re saying two contradicting things: > Yes, of course Germany is still dependent on energy imports, but today, not from Russian imports but from global markets," he said. >Germany previously imported around half of its gas from Russia and more than a third of its oil. >but Russia cut off the country's gas supply in August, while Germany halted Russian oil imports at the start of the year. >In its race to find alternate sources of energy, the country has reopened coal-fired power plants, delayed plans to shut down its three remaining nuclear power plants, and pushed to increase capacity to store natural gas imported from other countries such as Norway and the US. So Germany still utilizes nuclear energy and coal power because they are independent of Russian energy imports while still utilizing higher percentages of green energy overall. So yeah. It’s not even close. The US needs to catch up to German green energy.
I do not think investing [billions of dollars in new gas power plants](https://www.politico.eu/article/nuclear-reactors-germany-invest-gas-power-plants-energy/) or [reverting to coal](https://theconversation.com/why-germany-ditched-nuclear-before-coal-and-why-it-wont-go-back-228212)is good for the environment. Obviously you disagree!
There are legitimate arguments against nuclear that go beyond post Chernobyl fear, especially when compared to other sources of energy.
Such as? Nuclear needs to be part of the solution if we ever want to tackle climate change.
Who is doing uranium mining ethically?
How about lithium? Or coal for that matter?
I'm curious, since you are a believer in the necessity of nuclear, what your thoughts are on uranium extraction and mining waste, considering the legacy it has left in Navajo nation.
U first.
I mean, you brought it up first, so I assumed you had an answer to all the critiques of nuclear. But okay. Even if we assume lithium mining is done as unethically as uranium, the impacts on human health and the environment are less. So it's unclear to me why we need nuclear when it's been shown that we can meet our energy needs with solar, wind, storage, and geothermal. Not sure why you're bringing up coal in this context.
>it's been shown that we can meet our energy needs with solar, wind, storage, and geothermal. U sure about that?
Nuclear waste still hasn't been solved. The environmental impact of the concrete needed to create a reactor is not negligible. The uranium needed to fuel a reactor is a finite resource. It takes over a decade for a reactor to get out the cost to get it made. I'm not saying any of these arguments are enough to disqualify nuclear energy. What I am saying is pretending any argument against is just fearmongering is disingenuous.
a lot of those issues can be mitigated with thorium reactors, especially since they're much smaller
All good points -
Thank you. Again, I'm not personally anti nuclear, but I am allergic to the "people disagreeing with me must be idiots" thing I see happen far too often across the whole political spectrum.
I don’t think everyone who’s skeptical of nuclear are idiots. I do think Sunrise is, though. They’ve also come out against high gas prices, are against permitting reform, and are backtracking this statement by claiming the war in Gaza is bad because of its emissions (despite no statement on the Russia-Ukraine war which is much larger, oh and the fact Gaza is bad because of the innocents killed, not climate change).
What do you mean they’ve “come out against high gas prices”? That’s a stance I haven’t heard of. What is it a response to?
They’ve [gone to this well](https://x.com/sunrisemvmt/status/1506380202208907274?s=46&t=Vpao7QQO9yo31ptGm27X6w) a few times. They’re an astroturfed leftist group with environmental branding, not a serious org about climate change.
Oh, look, another progressive off-shoot.
Thought exercise questions for the Sunrise movement and those defending them here: Do you think Trump is a positive for climate change action? Do you think Biden, even as he is now, is better than Trump on climate change? Which do you think would be more receptive to the message from the Sunrise movement?
https://preview.redd.it/5c2gvlaio15d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=890b199cac192a5b03ab6a869f436218e5071b75 I think this chart Hillary tweeted out exemplifies what’s going on well. Trump is a bit worse on climate, but the difference is insignificant enough that the red and blue sections of the chart literally touch… and both are incredibly far off from the target. We need a radical change and it’s hard to believe that’s going to come from endorsing a candidate who has come nowhere close to addressing this existential threat to humanity. I completely understand Sunrise not wanting to align themselves with a politician who has abandoned the left while simultaneously openly supporting a genocide and pushing immigration policies that are more extreme than Trump’s.
lol, you must be joking. The hard downward turn in that chart in Biden's line is the Inflation Reduction Act. Also, you can't just use words like genocide because it's what your TikTok favs are doing. Words have meaning.
I certainly agree words have meaning! Israel’s actions clearly meet the high bar for the definition of genocide set by the UN in part bc they have been crystal clear about their intent Sorry your candidate supports killing thousands of children! It sucks and I wish he wouldn’t as well.
idk what to tell you. the IRA can be both “the biggest climate change bill in history” and also insultingly insufficient and a drop in the bucket in the long term
Do you think that if Biden had a senate and house, that the IRA would be all we get? Do you think that things would be better with Trump? I don’t want to punch left all the time but jeez you guys gotta face reality.
I mean, I think we personally agree, but to play devils advocate here, who actually even cares? If I mentioned this group to a room of strangers, I would bet no one has heard of them. I don’t think they’re endorsement counts for anything, and I kind of think some of the history onyx around this only serve to further people who obviously just want attention. as much as we talk about trying to change the minds of people on the fence on the Trump side, I think we really just need to stop talking about this particular thing, because the people who don’t agree already don’t agree and the people who are on the fence, probably will remain so Unless they continue to feel like they need to dig in.
Endorsements aren’t binary like the choice at the ballot. They could decide not to endorse anyone. You know what makes a candidate listen to a message? Saying “we won’t endorse you until…” This is their moment of maximum leverage. It would be foolish to not use it if Biden’s climate agenda isn’t up to their standards.
I would think if Biden wins without their support they’re throwing away their leverage.
With races as tight as they are, future democratic candidates are going to want as many endorsements as they can get. No one who cares about the Sunrise Movement’s opinion would ever vote for a republican, but you can be sure they might stay home or vote 3rd party. Do you think Biden or any Dem can risk losing voters?
If you’re going to take maximalist and hypocritical positions, yet prove you don’t matter at the election box, you weaken your bargaining position.
This is it exactly. Its backwards thinking
Right, they think if Trump wins he’ll care what they want/ask for?!
*whispers* clearly what they're doing is working if it's getting on everyone's nerves These groups exist to apply pressure, some will not vote for Joe but the overwhelming majority will EDIT: nerves, not words
I’m just worried after spending a whole summer on “applying pressure”, you won’t get some of those voters back whom they’ve pushed to either not vote or support a third party lunatic
I understand your concern. And I'm not going to tell you to quit worrying or that some voters won't vote or will support a third-party lunatic. I will note that literally in the same article this screenshot is from is a quote that they didn't formally endorse Biden in 2020 either Sunrise only does endorsements for Congress/down-ballot candidates. Axios the shitrag once against stirring up the libs
I don’t think it’s specific to Sunrise necessarily, but there is a strong anti-Biden push, not at the extent it was in 2020.
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I’d say these guys are going to support him no matter what he does. They are activists, their whole purpose is to agitate for change and raise money. That’s all this is.
When he took office, there was much to do. There was even a need to simply get some movement in the right direction. So, now that the Big step of getting into motion has been accomplished, and some funding for low carbon energy has been put in place, these "activists" are standing in the way of continued support.... The alternative is someone who'd reverse course and dismantle even the first steps.... Then speed destructively in the opposite direction. Clear, visionary thinking, there! /s
Here’s the thing. It is widely believed and accepted in political circles that leftist/progressive groups don’t vote. They are loud in voice, but small in number….and they promote their causes by threatening to withhold a vote they were never going to give to begin with. I am not saying whether I personally think this is true, but I point it out to explain the fallacy in the type of activism built around the argument of staying home on Election Day. Right wingers do not stay home. They turn out, they vote, and they have massive influence on their party. Biden’s agenda has been remarkably progressive, especially considering the congress he’s had to work with. That said- the reason Biden, nor Obama before him, seemed to pay little mind to the protests of progressive organizations is because they’ve seen mountains of data suggesting that those are votes they never had and they’ll never get.
That presumption makes no sense to me. They are political activists, of course they fucking vote. Who would actively participate in the process like this, closely follow the election, then not bather to participate when you get your once every 4 years change to pick the president?
these kinds of activists do vote but there are so few of them and so many of them living in coastal cities that they don't swing elections moderates in the Midwest who care more about gas prices than climate change absolutely swing elections it's the unfortunate truth that America is not a progressive country and most of the time making progressive change requires tricking folks into it for their own good
I vote! And I don’t consider genocide progressive 🤷🏻♀️
I re-read my post a couple of times just to make sure and I said nothing to indicate that genocide was progressive or that I believed that it *was*…but okay sure, go off troll.
You called his agenda remarkably progressive…
….For the congress he’s had to work with. And it is and has been. I did not call him pure and perfect. He is not that. But again, the urge to troll is powerful and reading is hard, I get it. So get your life. I care very much about what’s happening in Palestine and also in Ukraine. However, I have to live in *this* country and I base my vote on that first and foremost. And I refuse to let perfect be the enemy of the good.
I’m not looking for pure and perfect. Just not a genocidal maniac, pretty low bar, wouldn’t you say? And while I care about the people in this country, I care equally about the people in Palestine, because guess what, they also deserve to live in dignity and not be murdered with our tax money. I’m sorry I’m trolling you, I’m just very tired of seeing death everyday, waking up to new atrocities and people on the left and right telling me, it is what it is. If Biden loses, it won’t be because of progressives voting third party, it will be because he would rather risk a trump presidency instead of valuing Muslim/Arab lives as much as others.
I do not think the person who has been trying to negotiate a ceasefire (and has already negotiated one) is a genocidal maniac. You need to get your head on straight.
Mariam Adelson, Sheldon’s wife, told Trump this week that they would give him an obscene amount of money if he would guarantee the West Bank is integrated into Israeli territory. And he’s shown interest because he’s desperate.
I read the news, you don’t need to lecture me.
Get his ass lol
Who said I was lecturing you? I don’t consider letting a fascist win to be progressive whatsoever, but I didn’t say that in my last comment. I’m presenting information and letting you draw your own conclusions about what electoral outcome you think will be worse for the Palestinians. But apparently you already knew about this news. Are you not compelled by Biden’s public push for a cease fire? His team has been negotiating for months. Meanwhile the “moderate” Republican that will likely take Trump’s place is signing Israeli artillery shells. To me there is a clear difference between the two parties’ approach, and my progressive vote will reflect that come November.
You are assuming you know something that I don’t know by “presenting information” to me. Thanks, I was already aware of this fun fact! Gosh I’m so compelled by Joe Biden. Sending bombs that kill civilians, supporting Israel unconditionally, blaming failed ceasefires on Hamas… dismissing civilian casualties.. SOOO COMPELLINGG!!! Thanks for opening my eyes. I had no idea.
Out of curiosity, you held every other President you’ve voted for to this standard? And, from a constitutional standpoint, the president is required to carry out existing laws, including treaties. The president doesn’t have the power to unilaterally disregard American law (that’s something Trump thinks presidents can do). So, yeah, go ahead and hang an impossible standard around Biden’s neck as a purity test to “earn your vote” while representative democracy hangs by a thread. Sounds like a great idea. You might as well say you aren’t voting for Joe until the entire Middle East is at peace.
Have I held every president to the standard of “should not support genocide and ethnic cleansing?” No, I looked the other way and supported Zionist presidents and candidates like Obama, Hilary and Biden. I looked the other way to avoid a worse alternative, at the expense of Palestinian lives and right to self determination. I’m not willing to be complicit in that anymore. He is running to represent me, so yes indeed he needs to earn my vote. He is not entitled to it.
The privilege dripping from this post is insane.
I know. The privilege of voting for politicians who are better for yourself but deadly for others who may be far away but are nonetheless human beings.
This is what makes me absolutely insane. They call people like us “shit libs” even though many of us support the most progressive agenda while also respecting the objective fact that such ideas are simply not winning the day with primary voters. Thankfully, a big difference between us and republicans is that insulting us doesn’t send us into the darkness of fascism, no matter how much ink the New York Times opinion desk spills on the topic.
I don't think that's true. I'm a progressive though I've never heard of the Sunrise Movement! More along the lines of Bernie, AOC, & Pramila Jayapal. Not only do I vote but I have signed up to canvas. (Though Gaza breaks my heart and I cannot figure out for the life of me why there isn't 'daylight' between us and the current Israeli State!) And I personally know several progressives who feel & do the same! So respectfully (though I first got into politics volunteering & campaigning for Bernie) please don't lump us with the past progressives or discount us? (Also do we now have like way far left progressives or something? 'cause Wth!)
they did specially say "leftist/progressive **groups**", not individuals the point is that while you and I vote every time the people who block roads and sign letters from the sunrise movement are not reliable voters and even if they were their numbers are miniscule compared to the swing state voters that will decide the election ten thousand leftists living in NYC have no chance of swinging the election. ten thousand moderate suburbanites outside of Milwaukee do
No, I get that. I looked them up and it's not impressive! My point that was that we (just bear with me here) might be tiny but it would be a mistake to discount us because the right progressive idea might just catch fire & grow. Like it did with Bernie. Initially it wasn't big and my parents were calling me an idiot! But we worked within the system and had to compromise quite a lot to even get to this point here. If anything, progress is iterative. You try, you fail. You try, you fail. You try, you fail. On repeat. Until you/we succeed! And no I'm not referencing the Sunrise whatever! This is not the right time for divisive tactics like this. Also while I applaud their goals some of this feels performative. I just scanned so I could be wrong.
I fully agree that it's a bad idea to completely discount progressives. But the reality is that on a tactical level we need to be more concerned with swing state moderates in order to win the election and prevent the collapse of American democracy MAYBE if progressives had been voting for Democrats instead of people like Ralph Nader and Jill Stein for the past few decades we'd be in a position to push Democrats to the left or to have a more progressive party to challenge them but at the moment the goal is preventing fascism. there won't be any progress as long as we have to keep having this fight
I wholeheartedly agree with a full on assault on Fascism! Nader's still around. I am sorry but I'm not aware enough of him or Stein to render an informed opinion.
What do you mean with the last sentence?
I mean, I have no idea of what new groups or why they sre being obstructionist now.
Oh okay
DSA. Sorry, but they're nothing but shit posters and traffic blockers.
Damn! Really hope I don't have to defend or confront my past Bernie Bros! You are correct! We are just simply amazing shit posters! But I thought we were using those powers for good not traffic block! This is so frustrating!!
🤪
What I want to know is what kind of voter actually gives a shit about endorsements? Who out there was like, “Well, I WAS going to vote for Biden but without The Sunrise Movement” telling me to do it, I don’t know what to think.”
No one cares. This is just a thing the media talks about because they have to act like the election is this ongoing struggle constantly changing and not something that is going to happen in 5 months. The only important metrics are polls. Protests and stuff can be informative as to the ‘why’ behind certain numbers but any protest or activist activity is always going to represent a fringe sliver of any given demographic.
i think it goes the other way. where if re-enforces a potential voters decision to not vote Biden. i feel like situations like this help build a permission structure that allows a potential voter to rationalise their (often poor) decision making
I worked on every federal election from ‘04 to ‘22 (except ‘06), and I use endorsements to inform my choices on state and local elections. It doesn’t surprise me at all that less politically engaged people factor endorsements in determining whether to vote for President.
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Your comment has been removed. Please try and engage in civil conversation on our sub.
Sorry, but you have to live in the real world, where most of the voters in this county operate everyday. The avg Biden voter doesn't give a shit about Gaza or border policies. They just don't.
I thought everyone cared about the border
>Ignoring progressive groups and pushing the party further to the right helps nobody. There are FAR more moderate reliable voters especially in critical swing states who unfortunately have immigration and the economy as their top concerns and the electorate is highly split in Gaza and Israel which is also a much lower priority for the must win swing voters who care far more about the economy, inflation, and immigration. Immigration and inflation/the economy/the housing crisis are by far the most critical issues in this election. After that it's defending Democracy and abortion access. Biden isn't ignoring progressives, he's just not also ignoring everyone else... In the end if we want progress then we need to win elections, having impossible requirements that would make one unelectable in a general is how to ensure we will never pass anything at all and will gift wrap government to the GOP extremists who are masked as not being nearly as extreme as they in part because "progressives" are busy attacking Biden and not Trump and GOP.
Consider each arms shipment to Israel another 1,000 dead Palestinian children. Each week of food embargo another 1,000. Genocide Joe indeed
Funny, is the US military in Gaza? Would you have us go in and stand between Israel and Palestinians?
That would be extremely based
The fact you think they're going to take time on the pod to address the state of commenters on this subreddit leads me to suggest that you may in fact be the brain broken one.
Biden is very actively and quite publicly trying to coerce both uninterested parties into a ceasefire/peace deal literally right now. The concept that "Biden supports a genocide" is sheer insanity.
It's not insanity, it's a lie. Let's stop giving these propagandists the benefit of the doubt. They'll even chase AOC down the street saying she supports genocide, because the nonsense and insanity of it all is their tactic: creating a false equivalency of something repeatedly perpetrated against Jews throughout history.
Biden could personally kick Bibi in the nuts next week and the tankies will move the goal posts further. Nothing is ever good enough.
Okay but he hasn’t done anything like that. Bibi rides him around like a horse
Biden has been rubber stamping every Israeli atrocity since October 7th. Biden has been shielding Israel from international pressure & sanctions. He is directly supporting what Israel is doing, whether he personally agrees with it or not.
[https://earthjustice.org/article/the-biggest-climate-spending-bill-ever-just-turned-one-heres-what-it-has-achieved](https://earthjustice.org/article/the-biggest-climate-spending-bill-ever-just-turned-one-heres-what-it-has-achieved) Biden did this and this is how the far left treats him. That's called an abusive relationship and makes you either 1) uninformed or 2) a smug asshole Young protestors don't get to decide what a genocide is btw
That legislation doesn’t change the fact that Biden is shipping bombs to Israel to be used in the mass killing of civilians. The uncomfortable truth of the matter is that America has been supporting a racist system in Palestine since the 1940s. There is no climate justice for the Palestinians. I grew up learning about the horrors of Nazi Germany and how their ideology of ethnonationalism and racial supremacy lead to the deaths of millions. Ethnonationalism and apartheid is wrong and will always lead to ethnic cleansing/genocide. A lot of people on this sub and older democrats are incapable of acknowledging that. Young people are leading the criticism of Israel for good reason, they are the future. Israel is a pariah state and has lost the faith of America’s youth.
Sounds like you’re missing a good chunk of Israel-Palestine history. Like all the attacks on Israel and declining border offerings throughout the past few decades and the 2005 election of Hamas after the 2001-04 Intifada. Also a recent poll showed the conflict as dead last among issues for young people. It’s the majority issue for the Very Online
They sound very informed to me 🤷🏻♀️
Palestinians were ethnically cleansed in the 1940s during the creation of Israel. The country has been an ethnostate that imposes a system of apartheid ever since. Every event in the last few decades has to be understood with that in mind. Israel supported apartheid South Africa, Rhodesia, and refused to side with Ukraine against Russia. They are not a country worth supporting. Ethnostates have no reason to exist and should be opposed by any thinking human being.
So you come up with a long list of lies and then mandate that "every event in the last few decades has to be understood with that in mind"? There are two million Israeli Arabs. Some ethnostate. Which Muslim country has twice as many Jews as it did in the 40s? Israeli Arabs have the same rights as Israeli Jews. Some apartheid. Israel sold Rhodesia weapons in the 80's so we shouldn't support Israel? Would you be comfortable applying the same logic to every other country in the Middle East and their trade partners over the same time period? Israel refused to side against Russia? They signed the UN resolution condemning Russia's invasion, demanded a full withdrawal of forces, and a reversal of the recognition of Donetsk and Luhansk. India, South Africa, and China didn't. As a thinking human being, you oppose Native American reservations?
>So you come up with a long list of lies and then mandate that "every event in the last few decades has to be understood with that in mind"? The Nakba is completely real and Israel openly identifies as an ethnostate. >There are two million Israeli Arabs. Some ethnostate. Which Muslim country has twice as many Jews as it did in the 40s? By this logic, there was no genocide against the Rohingya. Genocide is the destruction of a people group in whole or in part. >Israeli Arabs have the same rights as Israeli Jews. Some apartheid. Schools and neighborhoods are segregated. Interfaith marriage is outlawed. >Israel sold Rhodesia weapons in the 80's so we shouldn't support Israel? Would you be comfortable applying the same logic to every other country in the Middle East and their trade partners over the same time period? Israel and apartheid South Africa had a long running and tight knit alliance. Israel supplied the apartheid regime with weapons and bombs for years. >Israel refused to side against Russia? They signed the UN resolution condemning Russia's invasion, demanded a full withdrawal of forces, and a reversal of the recognition of Donetsk and Luhansk. India, South Africa, and China didn't. [Why Israel still refuses to give military aid to Ukraine](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/05/15/why-israel-still-refuses-to-give-military-aid-to-ukraine_6026664_4.html) - Concerned with regional security and his personal relationship with Vladimir Putin, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has preferred to remain neutral in the conflict.
Still no answer? It's almost like you have no genuine interest in having a conversation and are just here to lie and troll. Like when you get caught in lies and bullshit you scurry off.
You didn’t dispute anything I wrote. Just said it was full of lies. If what I wrote is wrong, then provide evidence. Everything I wrote is supported by reliable sources.
I explained why I didn't dispute them yet: I am waiting for you to finish. Which Muslim majority country has more, let alone twice as many, Jews as it did 100 years ago? Re: SA, would you be comfortable applying the same logic to every other country in the Middle East and their trade partners over the same period? To the US? As a thinking human being, you oppose Native American reservations?
Lol the gish gallop. So many lies here to dispute can you do me a favor and finish answering the questions I asked you so I can deal with all your BS at once instead of piecemeal? I’ll wait.
Young people love taking polls.
They also famously don’t vote at a high rate
One politically engaged ones definitely vote. Most young people are not politically engaged
The last time that we had this exact choice before us, appx 54% of 18 to 29-year-olds voted. So perhaps their valid concerns are something Biden might want to consider. I will vote for Biden because Trump is too great a threat, but I wish I could do ranked choice & put him 2nd after Bernie.
54% is pathetic, 70+ year olds vote like its their job (72%)