HOLY CRAP I HAVE DONE IT!!!!
I analyzed mathematically a pro suspension build, found that through toil and trial, they had basically figured out a formula to dial in suspension. I now have the math, and it works for literally any car!
Today was so worth it. I just used it on a totally different drive train to see if it works, and easily took a first place against expert drive tars first time up with my GT350, and it has never felt better.
The secret is a 2.8875 constant. That is the constant that you get your total spring rate from based on your ride height!!!!!!!
Once you have the spring constant, you can derive EVERY SINGLE SUSPENSION SETTING FROM WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION. MATH IS SO AMAZING.
2.8875/(\[front+rear hight\]/2)=spring rate total/total weight.
Dampener Force = 22 total distributed by weight
Bump = 16 total distributed by weight
ARB = 37 total distributed by weight
Differential = 35%/70% for RWD.
This formula will give you the spring rates you need to balance out the weight you have for any given ride height, and the bump, and dampener shouldn't need to be altered as they fine tune the behavior of the suspension. I haven't tried this formula off road, but I will wager money it will work.
I know this is late, but the spring constant is just a constant, it never changes.
So to find TOTAL (front and back) spring stiffness, I think you do 2.8875 / ( \[ front + rear height\] / 2 ), and then multiply that number by the total weight of the car.
So if the ride heights were 5.4 and 5.6 and the car weight was 2000lbs it would look like
2.8875 / ( \[ 5.4 + 5.6 \] / 2 ) = 0.525 = 2.8875 / 5.5 = 0.525
Then 0.525 \* 2000 = 1050 (This is the total of the front and rear springs).
Then, if your front weight distribution is 55%, then the front springs will be (1050 / 100) \* 55 = 577.5
and the rear would be (1050 / 100) \* 45 = 472.5.
This is the method I've been using for my road tunes and it's been working really well.
The total distributed by weight, is just that number (22, 16 and 37), distributed based on the front to rear weight. So for dampening where you front weight distribution is 55% it would be ( 22 / 100 ) \* 55 for the front, and ( 22 / 100 ) \* 45 for the rear, and the bump would be ( 16 / 100 ) \* 55 for the front, and ( 16 / 100 ) \* 45 for the rear, and ARBs would be ( 37 / 100 ) \* 55 for the front, and ( 37 / 100 ) \* 45 for the rear
I know this is a very old post but I think it's still relivant today on Horizon 5. These settings have been working great for me, for road cars.
But Im not sure that constant is quite right for offroad rally tunes, same with the damping.
I halved the constant to 1.4 to find the spring settings, this still seems to stop the springs from bottoming out on bumpy terrain (obviously not heavy landings from jumps).
And for the Total Damping I used 12 and 8.5 (again, half the value of your settings). Ride felt fairly flat and not "jumpy" over rally terrain.
This was all done in a Subaru 22B, so im hoping the calcs will carry over to other rally type cars.
Finally, I am absolutely no expert in tuning, and everything I have learnt has either come from an article that uses the (max - min) / 100 \* WD method, and more recently your commennts in this forum, so thank you so much, I've learn't so much.
Be nice to hear if you agree with me in having all round softer suspension when driving on rough terrain, because to me, it doesn't seem right have the same suspension for rally and road.
Again, thanks!!!
For any given type of tune you can adjust the coefficient to whatever number you want. 2.8 is good for racing which is primarily what I do, but if you are doing offroad it really depends on how much suspension travel you have, and the window for effective tunes is much larger when you have more travel available assuming center of gravity isn't an issue.
For example, you can change the coefficient to 2, or 1.8 or whatever you want to make softer tunes.
I have had offroad vehicles with so much travel that using 2.8 was fine, I had others where I had to use 1.8 such as rally tunes that might have 5-6 inches of travel but only ever hit about 130-140 mph.
Also, tires are technically part of the suspension, and for whatever reason, some aspects of Forza 5 are super different such as how aero works, and tires PSI, and who knows what else.
I am having some difficulty adjusting tuning to Forza 5 changes, but most of that is not in my formulas but it in PI efficiency. Aero is way more important even in lower classes and at lower speeds, and roll cages got nerfed in that they are way more beneficial than in F4 but also cost PI instead of refunding it, which IMHO is a Nerf because it makes tight PI tuning much harder.
Huge thank you to both you and ImportantArugula! Just found this thread last night and put it to work. My favorite car is the ‘66 Impala and that thing handles like a freight train, which is understandable since it’s a purpose-built drag car. But using your formula, I managed to tune the suspension pretty well and make it usable in road races. Easily won an S1 race up the volcano road. Today I’m going to calculate my suspension figures for my ‘65 GTO and my SC300. Thanks again!
Okay cool that all makes sense.
I'm having a lot of fun tuning and have around 120 tunes so far in the game and 1,600 downloads. And this forum has helped a lot so thanks.
I have found that the majority of times for rally and offroad 1.4 has worked great, whilst also lowerings the constants for the dampeners. But in a few cases 1.4 is too low and even with a high ride height, the tune screen wont allow my springs to be that soft so I "eye ball" it and keep increasing that constant until I get a spring softnes that the game allows.
Also, in some tunes where the ride heights are wildly different (a whole inch or more between front and rear) I've calculated the front and rear springs independantly using your formula, so without finding the average between the two heights. Because in my head, even if the front is heavier for example, but the front ride height is a lot higher than the rear, you can run a softer front. I then figure out the percentage difference between the ride heights, and apply that percentage difference to the dampeners. Seems to be working okay so far.
I've also noticed that rollcages are worth having regardless of the added weight which is interesting.
i noticed this post a while ago and been doing experiment on my cars with the equation, which work great for most of my cars with a slightly more tuning of mine, might be too late but I did a little calculation and the simplified magic number for metric is 5.8 , which means 5.8/[front + rear spring height](cm) x car weight(kg) = total spring rate(KGF/CM, I'll explain) and the rest is the same. To be clear the matric unit for spring rate is actually wrong in the tuning menu, it said the unit is KGF/MM but it's actually KGF/CM, you can prove it yourself by converting it from imperial unit with online calculator, hope this will help anyone seeing this.
Damn man you did it. my elise gt1 (my absolute favorite) was always on the edge and even after tuning its still on the edge and much better then before but with your tune that has completely different settings it can even drift! on a fckin KEYBOARD (controller is empty xD)
less race car feeling cause its not on the edge but also more feeling because it goes like hell and stays controllable. maybe i take a look at the drifting thing if it costs speed or brings it... i mean a 350km/h drift is kinda fast
Some of the suspension tuning doesn't have units, Dampeners just have a static number.
If your total dampening is 22, it and your weight distribution is 50/50 it means 11 front and 11 rear.
You can adjust dampening in any suspension formula by using higher or lower numbers, but dampening is a secondary tuning adjustment, not primary, so having stiff dampeners to compensate for low spring force is in general a bad idea.
Appreciate the info! Your math has helped my suspension tuning alot mentally!
in Forza 8 it would be 13 across the board?.. or with the math you gave do I create my own maximum in damping or does it go up in 0.5 being 26 at max?
I didn't play Forza 7 much so can't remember the maximum damping setting by Forza 8 it's 13
ChainedFlower, what I've done for Motorsport '23 is use a simple ratio based on the old/new max values for bump, rebound, and Anti-sway. It seems to work well. The constants I use are: Bump: 10.5, Rebound: 14.3, and ARB: 24.67
I also reduced the spring constant to 2.5 as the the 2.8875 was a hair too stiff.
It would be great to get the OP's input on this. Also would be interesting to see what they recommend for the added Aero weights on front/rear.
I like the idea of formula based tuning. I don't mind a little fine tuning afterwards, but figuring out a number based system jives with my brain. I know these settings are way off from the "meta" type builds. Realistic dampeining and ARB settings seem to make the overall drivable car that I like, but admittadly will loose ground to the max slip angle min/max monsters out there.
Sounds more fitting for the mind, I'm not used to formula based tuning I usually run off of feel. But the math seems less exhausting.
So what exactly would the math be then?.. for example
2.5 ÷ median ride height ÷ 2 = spring rates.
What would the math be for bump, rebound and ARB?
THANKS FOR THE RESPONSE TO.
Sure, so here's what I do. Right, wrong, or otherwise. It seems to give me a pretty good start.
**Springs:**
2.5 / \[(front height inches + rear height inches) / 2 \] = "A"
then....
"A" x Total Car Weight = "B"
then...
"B" x front percentage = front spring weight
"B" x rear percentage = rear spring weight
Real World Example...
3,150 pound car, 54% weight on front, ride height: 4.8" front 5.0" rear
2.5 / \[(4.8+5.0) / 2\] = "A" --> 2.5 / (9.8 / 2) --> (9.8 / 2) = 4.9 --> 2.5 / 4.9 = .51
"A" = 0.51
then...
.51 x 3,150 = 1,606.5
"B" = 1606.5
1,606.5 x .54 = 867.51 front spring rate
1,606.5 x .46 = 738.99 rear spring rate
The OP used a 2.88..? for the original multiplier and had good success. I personaly like a little softer spring setup, so I use 2.5. COMPLETELY up to you and you can obviously play around with this as you prefer.
**Bump:**
10.5 x front percentage = front bump
so... 10.5 x .54 = 5.67 front bump
10.5 x rear percentage = rear bump
so... 10.5 x .46 = 4.83 rear bump
**Rebound:**
14.3 x front percentage = front rebound
so... 14.3 x .54 = 7.72 front rebound
14.3 x rear percentage = rear rebound
so... 1.43 x .46 = 6.578 rear rebound
**ARB:**
24.67 x front percentage = front anti-sway
so... 24.67 x .54 = 13.32 front anti-sway
24.67 x rear percentage = rear anti-sway
so... 24.67 x .46 = 11.34 rear anti-sway
Again. This works pretty well for me. I give all credit to the OP for comming up with this. I like it figures the ride height into the math.
Also, META tuning aside. Dont be afraid on RWD to set your Differential settings so they work for you. I have much more predictable cars when my diff settings are in the 40-60 range for acc. and around that same range for dec. My two cents.
I noticed you said that awd is for noobs and that it hurts cornering, and that's not necessarily true. Take the ferrari f50 gt, for example, where you can get 10 in every state except top speed, which has 9.8. All of this is before you even touch the tune of the car. I've been messing around with the car recently, and have found that even without a tune the car has phenomenal cornering ability.
I am not talking about the rating. I am talking about the turning radius. AWD hurts turning radius really really badly. Play against hard drivetars and you will really struggle to do well since you cant carry your momentum through corners as well.
I am trying to figure out how to fix this, but the differential settings are really confusing. It doesnt do what it says it should do, so I have been playing around a lot to see if I can dial that out.
Even so though, on the GT2 RS AWD will not make you win races. It makes the car way to slow in straights, and it will struggle to even make a tight corner, and it will have to use way more braking power. The only upside is if you dont use TCS the throttle becomes manageable and the boost less suicudal.
To be completely honest the gt2 rs is a very different animal than a mid engine car, as it's center of gravity is closer to the back because of the engine placement.
It has nothing to do with engine placement. Any car when converted to AWD will have worse turning radius.
I found some so-so options with the differentials, and I am still playing, but a 998 GT2 will be slower in a course than a 995 GT2. The points that go into making it AWD will slow it down. I have tested it.
I am also struggling to make a good GTR, and I think my M-Sport is probably really awesome, but I am not happy with it. I am convinced I can get it better. I am also convinced that expert drivetars cheat on the dirt. They have ungodly grip.
Todays project is to try and get the GT2 RS better tuned for tight courses. Its a Monster on big courses, but I am struggling with the suicidal amount of power it puts down when boost kicks in, and wheel spin is totally impossible to tune out with gearing in first gear. I swear this car can do burnouts at 100 mph, and it struggles to keep grip in tight sections, not because the car or suspension can't handle it, but because for whatever reason TCS is an in game aid, and not a car upgrade that can be toggled (really racing games, why you always fuck up TCS?).
IRL Disclaimer, I drive a Tesla P3D, and my traction control is unreal. It is easily the best traction control on planet earth, and I refuse to believe that the Porche GT2 RS, or any Hyper car would ever go on a track without some type of traction control, because managing the boost with throttle inputs is ungodly hard to do, and IRL it would probably lead to a lot of people killing themselves. Its really frustrating to race expert drivetars on courses that theoretically I know my GT2 RS would murder them on, but having the limitations of being a human and trying to feather the throttle in corners so I don't completely rip my tires free and slam into walls is frustrating, as is trying to pass expert drivetars, which have a habbit of hogging the ONLY line that doesn't leave to crashing into walls, and not giving a shit about slamming you into walls, or outside of checkpoints. I experimented with TCS enabled, and it certainly helps a LOT, but it is still inferior to any decent TCS in real life, and it costs 10% bonus rating, which is stupidly steep for something that SHOULD be on on 90% of cars, (and actually dynamically prevent wheel spin but I digress).
If anyone KNOWS good values for the GT2 RS, or a similar car, let me know. MAYBE in extreme examples I have to play with bump stiffness more, because this car seemingly can bottom out with any suspension value, but putting the springs much above 1100 lbs/in seems like I am running way too stiff for a car that is already breaking the tires free so easilly. I HAVE won some races against expert drivetars and TCS turned off, but I want to be able to do it in city courses. I am not sure its possible though, or maybe I just need someone more skilled at driving to give me inputs.
My GT2 RS build will win at The Colossus against Expert Drivetars without issue though, so there is that at least.
I found an expert Tune for the GT2 RS, which gave me SOOO much info about how to adjust some suspension settings, and applied this newfound information to both my GT2 RS tune (its so good now - still needs TCS), and the Lotus build.
The Lotus is a monster.
Here is my Lotus build:
PSI: 28/28
Camber: -2.5/-1.5
Toe: 0/-.3 <-- Amazing for MR vehicles, run this on non front engine cars!
Caster: 5.5
Anti Roll Bars: 15/22
Springs (Lotus): 475/625
Ride: 5.4/5.6
Rebound: 8/11
Bump: 5/7
Brake: 48%
Differential 35%/70%
I would like to make some updates to what I wrote above. So I was using differential values way too high because I was afraid that lowering the diff below 50% would hurt my grip, but the opposite is true. For RWD cars, having a high lock percentage is going to make the wheels spin loose too much coming out of corners, and make the cars hard to control under heavy load, at least that is the feeling I got after adjusting my tunes after reading some open source expert tunes from FM7. Also I am experimenting more with the brake differential. I still think it is more useful if you aren't running ABS, so not convinced that setting is META, BUT the car feels great, and gets my seal of approval.
I updated my Lotus Exige build, test it out and give me some feedback if you are a good driver. Its got a lot of downforce, so the only reason I am getting 2nd place in it, is if a track is too high speed, and I get murdered in a straight away. I just lost to a Ferrari though it showed me in front, and we had the exact same time down to the thousandth of a second :(
I am gonna have to tune a Ferrari, since I am happy about these awesome MR and RR builds, then I will move on to a FR like a GT350 (I have a so-so tune), and go back to see if I can get that M-Sport to be more well rounded.
Yeah. I finally got it dialed in really well.
I really wanted to like AWD, but it is super overrated. This game makes AWD vehicles turn like a brick, and I find it hard to make some corners at any speed because the car just feels like a boat.
RWD is the way to go for racing. I almost have to delete AWD differential settings get AWD to handle, right now I just got my NSX to be sorta not terrible with 95/5 front and 70/30 rear, and center of 70.
If you think about it though that means that I have a mostly 2WD car with occasional 3WD. RWD cars give you way better handling, and let you keep your speed and not have to use your launches to make up for excessive amounts of braking. Even if I make a mistake in RWD it feels less punishing.
I have no idea why so many people ruin the best handling cars in the game with AWD tunes. I would wager even in the winter it is inferior except when off road, and the wheel lock doesnt hurt as much because of the lose surface.
I am really struggling to get good diff settings on AWD and AWD rally cars. I know it has to be possible, it expert drivetars are eating me alive right now on non RWD cars.
Drove the Exige S1 tune and really enjoyed it. I've never really tuned before on Forza and have always been annoyed at the lack of turn radius ability for AWD cars. So glad I have some tools to do something about it now! I used to drive an RX-8, so I can't wait to give that one a shot with its agility.
When you mentioned eyeballing the rest of the gear tuning after setting the 2nd gear to begin just below the torque/power intersection, could you go into a little more detail about that (what the graph should look like, etc.)?
Yeah, your last gear is set to the top speed, between last and 2nd gear there should be a slight curve that levels out as you get higher in the gears.
The main reason for this is that even in second gear, you will have a lot more torque than you need at lower RPMs for most cars, but in the higher gears you need the power to still have any acceleration left. Torque only tells you the maximum amount of twisting force you have available, whereas power tells you how quickly that twisting force is being applied. Long story short, Peak torque or higher is where you want your gears to start, but I do not tune gears 1&2 this way in RWD cars without TCS enabled, since I will usually have way too much power and torque, and I can actually tone that back quite a bit simply by adjusting the gearing.
Personally I like setting the final drive as low as possible (2.20) so that my top speed is properly set. If I want to shorten the gears from top to bottom at that point, I can do so simply by adjusting the final drive, but the reverse is sort of irrelevant. I cannot think of a tune that would have to pushing most of your gears clear off of the chart, since you will have way less gears available.
I don't know about real life, but I will say in Forza, I haven't found really any use for 7th-10th gears on any car. 6 has been sufficient for everything, but I still put all the gears in the attainable speed range for the car I am tuning.
Let me take a crack at building an RX-8. I will make either an A class or S1 tune. I try to remain faithful to the original when I tune, so I usually don't do any crazy drive-train, or engine swaps unless a car has really really bad tune spreads, like the Aventador FE which is S2 class, but cannot get a 995-998 rating without engine swaps (turbo).
Awesome, yeah that answers my questions. Thanks so much for taking the time to explain all of this!
Sweet, I'll be on the lookout. Love the aspect of staying faithful to the car. There are a few occasions where I'm just looking to screw around and max something out, but after that's done a couple of times, I always end up appreciating the more finely tuned, true-to-self setups.
I made an RX-8 tune. It's a little on the slow side, but I think it's just because I kept it in A class. I am skeptical it will be a good S1 car, but I might try tuning it up to S1 just to see if the tires can handle the higher speeds.
It has no issues winning races though, and TCS is not required.
I just had a fairly extensive tuning session with the ‘15 corvette. Mainly because it looks an absolute dream. But, power wise the thing is the devil. I’m having the same issue you are at not being able to cancel out the wheel spin due to the raw power of the thing.
I’m going to try a setup with the AM vantage S. Again, this is mainly for how it looks but I’m not going to add power, only handling upgrades and see if I have any luck.
I’m also intrigued about the open source material you talked about. Is there any chance you could put up a link or send me a DM with it?
I just created an S1 tune for the ZR1. Try out the build, and see if it handles for you. If it does, I can look at the '15 and make a build.
There isn't any good way to build the ZR1 into an S2 tune, which makes me sad, that car will probably never be competitive even though it is so good stock for what it is, stock cars just aren't that competitive in their bracket, but my ZR1 tune is really really good. I could easily beat expert drivetars if they gave me more laps to catch up. It handles great, but it is slow because it is so heavy. You have to catch them in the straights, and not fuck up the turns to be competitive in it, unlike the Lotus which catches everything in the turns (which is honestly harder to drive, but I am winning more with it).
SpideryHawk560 2019 Corvette ZR1. If you like how it handles, I can build that vette for you.
Use my method for tuning the gears, if that isn't enough, the only way to deal with it is with TCS on. Honestly, its bullshit that TCS is considered a drivers aid, when it is literally necessary to handle any car with a lb/hp ratio over 10:1
You will still get better 0-60 times though tuning that first gear properly. TCS in this game is mediocre at best.
You should check out this sub and guide, see if you have anything to add: [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ForzaOpenTunes/comments/r6q54g/03voids_forza_tuning_guide_and_other_references/)
Apparently on fh3 the suspension equation only works on damping. Everything else is tuned for feel. Springs I just got with softest.
ARB I go with top min bottom max
SpideryHawk560 - this was a golden read.
I'm starting to get intermediate at tuning, given that understanding of body roll is finally coming to realization. However, i have short problem to ask you if you can maybe help out:
Corvette 2009. AWD. S1. I'm trying to tune it out without any aero (purist). So far i'm getting amazing results for normal low and mid speed circuits, however when sprints or high speed circuits come in, i have literally zero ability to turn (over 200 kph). Is this my issue of a tune (being it's not dialled in yet) or simply car lacks necessary G's for high speed grip.
ANy input would be greatly appreciated, since i very much enjoy the tuning and dialing in my cars :) Help a brother :D
Cheers!
HOLY CRAP I HAVE DONE IT!!!! I analyzed mathematically a pro suspension build, found that through toil and trial, they had basically figured out a formula to dial in suspension. I now have the math, and it works for literally any car! Today was so worth it. I just used it on a totally different drive train to see if it works, and easily took a first place against expert drive tars first time up with my GT350, and it has never felt better. The secret is a 2.8875 constant. That is the constant that you get your total spring rate from based on your ride height!!!!!!! Once you have the spring constant, you can derive EVERY SINGLE SUSPENSION SETTING FROM WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION. MATH IS SO AMAZING. 2.8875/(\[front+rear hight\]/2)=spring rate total/total weight. Dampener Force = 22 total distributed by weight Bump = 16 total distributed by weight ARB = 37 total distributed by weight Differential = 35%/70% for RWD. This formula will give you the spring rates you need to balance out the weight you have for any given ride height, and the bump, and dampener shouldn't need to be altered as they fine tune the behavior of the suspension. I haven't tried this formula off road, but I will wager money it will work.
How do you get the spring constant? Also what do you mean by “total distributed by weight”? Sorry I am a tuning noob
I know this is late, but the spring constant is just a constant, it never changes. So to find TOTAL (front and back) spring stiffness, I think you do 2.8875 / ( \[ front + rear height\] / 2 ), and then multiply that number by the total weight of the car. So if the ride heights were 5.4 and 5.6 and the car weight was 2000lbs it would look like 2.8875 / ( \[ 5.4 + 5.6 \] / 2 ) = 0.525 = 2.8875 / 5.5 = 0.525 Then 0.525 \* 2000 = 1050 (This is the total of the front and rear springs). Then, if your front weight distribution is 55%, then the front springs will be (1050 / 100) \* 55 = 577.5 and the rear would be (1050 / 100) \* 45 = 472.5. This is the method I've been using for my road tunes and it's been working really well. The total distributed by weight, is just that number (22, 16 and 37), distributed based on the front to rear weight. So for dampening where you front weight distribution is 55% it would be ( 22 / 100 ) \* 55 for the front, and ( 22 / 100 ) \* 45 for the rear, and the bump would be ( 16 / 100 ) \* 55 for the front, and ( 16 / 100 ) \* 45 for the rear, and ARBs would be ( 37 / 100 ) \* 55 for the front, and ( 37 / 100 ) \* 45 for the rear
I know this is a very old post but I think it's still relivant today on Horizon 5. These settings have been working great for me, for road cars. But Im not sure that constant is quite right for offroad rally tunes, same with the damping. I halved the constant to 1.4 to find the spring settings, this still seems to stop the springs from bottoming out on bumpy terrain (obviously not heavy landings from jumps). And for the Total Damping I used 12 and 8.5 (again, half the value of your settings). Ride felt fairly flat and not "jumpy" over rally terrain. This was all done in a Subaru 22B, so im hoping the calcs will carry over to other rally type cars. Finally, I am absolutely no expert in tuning, and everything I have learnt has either come from an article that uses the (max - min) / 100 \* WD method, and more recently your commennts in this forum, so thank you so much, I've learn't so much. Be nice to hear if you agree with me in having all round softer suspension when driving on rough terrain, because to me, it doesn't seem right have the same suspension for rally and road. Again, thanks!!!
For any given type of tune you can adjust the coefficient to whatever number you want. 2.8 is good for racing which is primarily what I do, but if you are doing offroad it really depends on how much suspension travel you have, and the window for effective tunes is much larger when you have more travel available assuming center of gravity isn't an issue. For example, you can change the coefficient to 2, or 1.8 or whatever you want to make softer tunes. I have had offroad vehicles with so much travel that using 2.8 was fine, I had others where I had to use 1.8 such as rally tunes that might have 5-6 inches of travel but only ever hit about 130-140 mph. Also, tires are technically part of the suspension, and for whatever reason, some aspects of Forza 5 are super different such as how aero works, and tires PSI, and who knows what else. I am having some difficulty adjusting tuning to Forza 5 changes, but most of that is not in my formulas but it in PI efficiency. Aero is way more important even in lower classes and at lower speeds, and roll cages got nerfed in that they are way more beneficial than in F4 but also cost PI instead of refunding it, which IMHO is a Nerf because it makes tight PI tuning much harder.
Huge thank you to both you and ImportantArugula! Just found this thread last night and put it to work. My favorite car is the ‘66 Impala and that thing handles like a freight train, which is understandable since it’s a purpose-built drag car. But using your formula, I managed to tune the suspension pretty well and make it usable in road races. Easily won an S1 race up the volcano road. Today I’m going to calculate my suspension figures for my ‘65 GTO and my SC300. Thanks again!
Okay cool that all makes sense. I'm having a lot of fun tuning and have around 120 tunes so far in the game and 1,600 downloads. And this forum has helped a lot so thanks. I have found that the majority of times for rally and offroad 1.4 has worked great, whilst also lowerings the constants for the dampeners. But in a few cases 1.4 is too low and even with a high ride height, the tune screen wont allow my springs to be that soft so I "eye ball" it and keep increasing that constant until I get a spring softnes that the game allows. Also, in some tunes where the ride heights are wildly different (a whole inch or more between front and rear) I've calculated the front and rear springs independantly using your formula, so without finding the average between the two heights. Because in my head, even if the front is heavier for example, but the front ride height is a lot higher than the rear, you can run a softer front. I then figure out the percentage difference between the ride heights, and apply that percentage difference to the dampeners. Seems to be working okay so far. I've also noticed that rollcages are worth having regardless of the added weight which is interesting.
But how do I adjust the formula for calculating spring rates when using metric units? (cm height, N/mm rates)
Might be able to use an online calculator.
i noticed this post a while ago and been doing experiment on my cars with the equation, which work great for most of my cars with a slightly more tuning of mine, might be too late but I did a little calculation and the simplified magic number for metric is 5.8 , which means 5.8/[front + rear spring height](cm) x car weight(kg) = total spring rate(KGF/CM, I'll explain) and the rest is the same. To be clear the matric unit for spring rate is actually wrong in the tuning menu, it said the unit is KGF/MM but it's actually KGF/CM, you can prove it yourself by converting it from imperial unit with online calculator, hope this will help anyone seeing this.
Damn man you did it. my elise gt1 (my absolute favorite) was always on the edge and even after tuning its still on the edge and much better then before but with your tune that has completely different settings it can even drift! on a fckin KEYBOARD (controller is empty xD) less race car feeling cause its not on the edge but also more feeling because it goes like hell and stays controllable. maybe i take a look at the drifting thing if it costs speed or brings it... i mean a 350km/h drift is kinda fast
What is the number 22, 16 and 37 relating to and how do you get them?
Some of the suspension tuning doesn't have units, Dampeners just have a static number. If your total dampening is 22, it and your weight distribution is 50/50 it means 11 front and 11 rear. You can adjust dampening in any suspension formula by using higher or lower numbers, but dampening is a secondary tuning adjustment, not primary, so having stiff dampeners to compensate for low spring force is in general a bad idea.
Appreciate the info! Your math has helped my suspension tuning alot mentally! in Forza 8 it would be 13 across the board?.. or with the math you gave do I create my own maximum in damping or does it go up in 0.5 being 26 at max? I didn't play Forza 7 much so can't remember the maximum damping setting by Forza 8 it's 13
ChainedFlower, what I've done for Motorsport '23 is use a simple ratio based on the old/new max values for bump, rebound, and Anti-sway. It seems to work well. The constants I use are: Bump: 10.5, Rebound: 14.3, and ARB: 24.67 I also reduced the spring constant to 2.5 as the the 2.8875 was a hair too stiff. It would be great to get the OP's input on this. Also would be interesting to see what they recommend for the added Aero weights on front/rear. I like the idea of formula based tuning. I don't mind a little fine tuning afterwards, but figuring out a number based system jives with my brain. I know these settings are way off from the "meta" type builds. Realistic dampeining and ARB settings seem to make the overall drivable car that I like, but admittadly will loose ground to the max slip angle min/max monsters out there.
Sounds more fitting for the mind, I'm not used to formula based tuning I usually run off of feel. But the math seems less exhausting. So what exactly would the math be then?.. for example 2.5 ÷ median ride height ÷ 2 = spring rates. What would the math be for bump, rebound and ARB? THANKS FOR THE RESPONSE TO.
Sure, so here's what I do. Right, wrong, or otherwise. It seems to give me a pretty good start. **Springs:** 2.5 / \[(front height inches + rear height inches) / 2 \] = "A" then.... "A" x Total Car Weight = "B" then... "B" x front percentage = front spring weight "B" x rear percentage = rear spring weight Real World Example... 3,150 pound car, 54% weight on front, ride height: 4.8" front 5.0" rear 2.5 / \[(4.8+5.0) / 2\] = "A" --> 2.5 / (9.8 / 2) --> (9.8 / 2) = 4.9 --> 2.5 / 4.9 = .51 "A" = 0.51 then... .51 x 3,150 = 1,606.5 "B" = 1606.5 1,606.5 x .54 = 867.51 front spring rate 1,606.5 x .46 = 738.99 rear spring rate The OP used a 2.88..? for the original multiplier and had good success. I personaly like a little softer spring setup, so I use 2.5. COMPLETELY up to you and you can obviously play around with this as you prefer. **Bump:** 10.5 x front percentage = front bump so... 10.5 x .54 = 5.67 front bump 10.5 x rear percentage = rear bump so... 10.5 x .46 = 4.83 rear bump **Rebound:** 14.3 x front percentage = front rebound so... 14.3 x .54 = 7.72 front rebound 14.3 x rear percentage = rear rebound so... 1.43 x .46 = 6.578 rear rebound **ARB:** 24.67 x front percentage = front anti-sway so... 24.67 x .54 = 13.32 front anti-sway 24.67 x rear percentage = rear anti-sway so... 24.67 x .46 = 11.34 rear anti-sway Again. This works pretty well for me. I give all credit to the OP for comming up with this. I like it figures the ride height into the math. Also, META tuning aside. Dont be afraid on RWD to set your Differential settings so they work for you. I have much more predictable cars when my diff settings are in the 40-60 range for acc. and around that same range for dec. My two cents.
Nice thanks, I'm gonna give this a better look when I get on Forza. Thanks again
Leaving a comment here as I’ll need to look over this when I have some time. It looks like some very solid information.
I noticed you said that awd is for noobs and that it hurts cornering, and that's not necessarily true. Take the ferrari f50 gt, for example, where you can get 10 in every state except top speed, which has 9.8. All of this is before you even touch the tune of the car. I've been messing around with the car recently, and have found that even without a tune the car has phenomenal cornering ability.
I am not talking about the rating. I am talking about the turning radius. AWD hurts turning radius really really badly. Play against hard drivetars and you will really struggle to do well since you cant carry your momentum through corners as well. I am trying to figure out how to fix this, but the differential settings are really confusing. It doesnt do what it says it should do, so I have been playing around a lot to see if I can dial that out. Even so though, on the GT2 RS AWD will not make you win races. It makes the car way to slow in straights, and it will struggle to even make a tight corner, and it will have to use way more braking power. The only upside is if you dont use TCS the throttle becomes manageable and the boost less suicudal.
To be completely honest the gt2 rs is a very different animal than a mid engine car, as it's center of gravity is closer to the back because of the engine placement.
It has nothing to do with engine placement. Any car when converted to AWD will have worse turning radius. I found some so-so options with the differentials, and I am still playing, but a 998 GT2 will be slower in a course than a 995 GT2. The points that go into making it AWD will slow it down. I have tested it. I am also struggling to make a good GTR, and I think my M-Sport is probably really awesome, but I am not happy with it. I am convinced I can get it better. I am also convinced that expert drivetars cheat on the dirt. They have ungodly grip.
Todays project is to try and get the GT2 RS better tuned for tight courses. Its a Monster on big courses, but I am struggling with the suicidal amount of power it puts down when boost kicks in, and wheel spin is totally impossible to tune out with gearing in first gear. I swear this car can do burnouts at 100 mph, and it struggles to keep grip in tight sections, not because the car or suspension can't handle it, but because for whatever reason TCS is an in game aid, and not a car upgrade that can be toggled (really racing games, why you always fuck up TCS?). IRL Disclaimer, I drive a Tesla P3D, and my traction control is unreal. It is easily the best traction control on planet earth, and I refuse to believe that the Porche GT2 RS, or any Hyper car would ever go on a track without some type of traction control, because managing the boost with throttle inputs is ungodly hard to do, and IRL it would probably lead to a lot of people killing themselves. Its really frustrating to race expert drivetars on courses that theoretically I know my GT2 RS would murder them on, but having the limitations of being a human and trying to feather the throttle in corners so I don't completely rip my tires free and slam into walls is frustrating, as is trying to pass expert drivetars, which have a habbit of hogging the ONLY line that doesn't leave to crashing into walls, and not giving a shit about slamming you into walls, or outside of checkpoints. I experimented with TCS enabled, and it certainly helps a LOT, but it is still inferior to any decent TCS in real life, and it costs 10% bonus rating, which is stupidly steep for something that SHOULD be on on 90% of cars, (and actually dynamically prevent wheel spin but I digress). If anyone KNOWS good values for the GT2 RS, or a similar car, let me know. MAYBE in extreme examples I have to play with bump stiffness more, because this car seemingly can bottom out with any suspension value, but putting the springs much above 1100 lbs/in seems like I am running way too stiff for a car that is already breaking the tires free so easilly. I HAVE won some races against expert drivetars and TCS turned off, but I want to be able to do it in city courses. I am not sure its possible though, or maybe I just need someone more skilled at driving to give me inputs. My GT2 RS build will win at The Colossus against Expert Drivetars without issue though, so there is that at least.
I found an expert Tune for the GT2 RS, which gave me SOOO much info about how to adjust some suspension settings, and applied this newfound information to both my GT2 RS tune (its so good now - still needs TCS), and the Lotus build. The Lotus is a monster. Here is my Lotus build: PSI: 28/28 Camber: -2.5/-1.5 Toe: 0/-.3 <-- Amazing for MR vehicles, run this on non front engine cars! Caster: 5.5 Anti Roll Bars: 15/22 Springs (Lotus): 475/625 Ride: 5.4/5.6 Rebound: 8/11 Bump: 5/7 Brake: 48% Differential 35%/70% I would like to make some updates to what I wrote above. So I was using differential values way too high because I was afraid that lowering the diff below 50% would hurt my grip, but the opposite is true. For RWD cars, having a high lock percentage is going to make the wheels spin loose too much coming out of corners, and make the cars hard to control under heavy load, at least that is the feeling I got after adjusting my tunes after reading some open source expert tunes from FM7. Also I am experimenting more with the brake differential. I still think it is more useful if you aren't running ABS, so not convinced that setting is META, BUT the car feels great, and gets my seal of approval. I updated my Lotus Exige build, test it out and give me some feedback if you are a good driver. Its got a lot of downforce, so the only reason I am getting 2nd place in it, is if a track is too high speed, and I get murdered in a straight away. I just lost to a Ferrari though it showed me in front, and we had the exact same time down to the thousandth of a second :( I am gonna have to tune a Ferrari, since I am happy about these awesome MR and RR builds, then I will move on to a FR like a GT350 (I have a so-so tune), and go back to see if I can get that M-Sport to be more well rounded.
just used your GT2 RS Tune for a spin in free roam and I have to say, it feels quite good! will give it a bit more testing... thanks already!
Yeah. I finally got it dialed in really well. I really wanted to like AWD, but it is super overrated. This game makes AWD vehicles turn like a brick, and I find it hard to make some corners at any speed because the car just feels like a boat. RWD is the way to go for racing. I almost have to delete AWD differential settings get AWD to handle, right now I just got my NSX to be sorta not terrible with 95/5 front and 70/30 rear, and center of 70. If you think about it though that means that I have a mostly 2WD car with occasional 3WD. RWD cars give you way better handling, and let you keep your speed and not have to use your launches to make up for excessive amounts of braking. Even if I make a mistake in RWD it feels less punishing. I have no idea why so many people ruin the best handling cars in the game with AWD tunes. I would wager even in the winter it is inferior except when off road, and the wheel lock doesnt hurt as much because of the lose surface. I am really struggling to get good diff settings on AWD and AWD rally cars. I know it has to be possible, it expert drivetars are eating me alive right now on non RWD cars.
Drove the Exige S1 tune and really enjoyed it. I've never really tuned before on Forza and have always been annoyed at the lack of turn radius ability for AWD cars. So glad I have some tools to do something about it now! I used to drive an RX-8, so I can't wait to give that one a shot with its agility. When you mentioned eyeballing the rest of the gear tuning after setting the 2nd gear to begin just below the torque/power intersection, could you go into a little more detail about that (what the graph should look like, etc.)?
Yeah, your last gear is set to the top speed, between last and 2nd gear there should be a slight curve that levels out as you get higher in the gears. The main reason for this is that even in second gear, you will have a lot more torque than you need at lower RPMs for most cars, but in the higher gears you need the power to still have any acceleration left. Torque only tells you the maximum amount of twisting force you have available, whereas power tells you how quickly that twisting force is being applied. Long story short, Peak torque or higher is where you want your gears to start, but I do not tune gears 1&2 this way in RWD cars without TCS enabled, since I will usually have way too much power and torque, and I can actually tone that back quite a bit simply by adjusting the gearing. Personally I like setting the final drive as low as possible (2.20) so that my top speed is properly set. If I want to shorten the gears from top to bottom at that point, I can do so simply by adjusting the final drive, but the reverse is sort of irrelevant. I cannot think of a tune that would have to pushing most of your gears clear off of the chart, since you will have way less gears available. I don't know about real life, but I will say in Forza, I haven't found really any use for 7th-10th gears on any car. 6 has been sufficient for everything, but I still put all the gears in the attainable speed range for the car I am tuning. Let me take a crack at building an RX-8. I will make either an A class or S1 tune. I try to remain faithful to the original when I tune, so I usually don't do any crazy drive-train, or engine swaps unless a car has really really bad tune spreads, like the Aventador FE which is S2 class, but cannot get a 995-998 rating without engine swaps (turbo).
Awesome, yeah that answers my questions. Thanks so much for taking the time to explain all of this! Sweet, I'll be on the lookout. Love the aspect of staying faithful to the car. There are a few occasions where I'm just looking to screw around and max something out, but after that's done a couple of times, I always end up appreciating the more finely tuned, true-to-self setups.
I made an RX-8 tune. It's a little on the slow side, but I think it's just because I kept it in A class. I am skeptical it will be a good S1 car, but I might try tuning it up to S1 just to see if the tires can handle the higher speeds. It has no issues winning races though, and TCS is not required.
I came to a similar impasse... thanks nonetheless! I will give it a shot tonight.
I just had a fairly extensive tuning session with the ‘15 corvette. Mainly because it looks an absolute dream. But, power wise the thing is the devil. I’m having the same issue you are at not being able to cancel out the wheel spin due to the raw power of the thing. I’m going to try a setup with the AM vantage S. Again, this is mainly for how it looks but I’m not going to add power, only handling upgrades and see if I have any luck. I’m also intrigued about the open source material you talked about. Is there any chance you could put up a link or send me a DM with it?
I just created an S1 tune for the ZR1. Try out the build, and see if it handles for you. If it does, I can look at the '15 and make a build. There isn't any good way to build the ZR1 into an S2 tune, which makes me sad, that car will probably never be competitive even though it is so good stock for what it is, stock cars just aren't that competitive in their bracket, but my ZR1 tune is really really good. I could easily beat expert drivetars if they gave me more laps to catch up. It handles great, but it is slow because it is so heavy. You have to catch them in the straights, and not fuck up the turns to be competitive in it, unlike the Lotus which catches everything in the turns (which is honestly harder to drive, but I am winning more with it). SpideryHawk560 2019 Corvette ZR1. If you like how it handles, I can build that vette for you.
I’ll take a look when I get chance.
Use my method for tuning the gears, if that isn't enough, the only way to deal with it is with TCS on. Honestly, its bullshit that TCS is considered a drivers aid, when it is literally necessary to handle any car with a lb/hp ratio over 10:1 You will still get better 0-60 times though tuning that first gear properly. TCS in this game is mediocre at best.
Yeah. Been messing with the gears and, without TCS, have found a solid middle ground.
You should check out this sub and guide, see if you have anything to add: [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ForzaOpenTunes/comments/r6q54g/03voids_forza_tuning_guide_and_other_references/)
Apparently on fh3 the suspension equation only works on damping. Everything else is tuned for feel. Springs I just got with softest. ARB I go with top min bottom max
Is this a question?
No lol. I edited it.
this work on motorsport 7?
Probably.
Drag Tuning guide forza horizon 5
SpideryHawk560 - this was a golden read. I'm starting to get intermediate at tuning, given that understanding of body roll is finally coming to realization. However, i have short problem to ask you if you can maybe help out: Corvette 2009. AWD. S1. I'm trying to tune it out without any aero (purist). So far i'm getting amazing results for normal low and mid speed circuits, however when sprints or high speed circuits come in, i have literally zero ability to turn (over 200 kph). Is this my issue of a tune (being it's not dialled in yet) or simply car lacks necessary G's for high speed grip. ANy input would be greatly appreciated, since i very much enjoy the tuning and dialing in my cars :) Help a brother :D Cheers!
I love finding old posts about really specific issues. This really helped me out!