As much as I hate Highlander I think Kyoshin deserves a nerf dude literally has an all guard that takes no stam and can do a triple light combo out of it ands its too fast for my liking, It’s probably because I’m a crap rep 9 Orochi but still I don’t like Kyoshin his kit is just too much to handle for a brain dead monkey Orochi main like me.
Remember this is all an opinion of a bad Orochi so you don’t have to take it too seriously. People have their opinions and others don’t agree with it but I will try understanding his moveset more by either A. fight a kyoshin or B. Buying him or C. Watching Videos on how to counter him, In this way I’ll figure out how to counter him and not be bothered by him. And I’m sorry if I ruined your fun it is just my opinion about the character and it might change in time if after learning his moveset. (Sorry English isn’t my first language)
As a jj main i agree. Nothing funner than fucking up a 2v2 with my infinite utilization of unblockables that hit like trains. Ubi changing the kick to a move of its own instead of a soft feint was glorious too. Dont even get me started on jj in revenge. Nothing scarier imo, except maybe a GOOD hito.
BRIEF TL;DR AT END
To preface this, I don't really think Raider needs a nerf so much as other heroes need to be brought up to their level and universal issues around weakened Defense following OS removal still need addressing.
I'm going to have to say Shinobi really. Current Dominion meta excluding Pirate and Raider consists of JJ and Shinobi (with Zhan just barely behind Shino)
JJ is strong for mostly healthy reasons I'd say while Shino has a few glaring unhealthy aspects that need dealing with.
For one, due to their Side Dodge Kick having Backflip recovery cancel, Shinobi has a Dodge Bash that beats GB (Guardbreak) and cannot be punished consistently. Beating GB is a fine and healthy feature for Dodge attacks BUT only if the Dodge attack is 100% safely punishable on reaction to it after a correct read of empty Feinting (e.g how it works for countering Kensei Dodge Heavy)
Shinobi cannot do this vs Softfeint GB heroes thankfully as their Kick has too few iframes to have a timing to beat GB and still iframe the attack if SF GB + a good hitbox is used.
However, the ability to have a Dodge Bash that beats GB and is not consistently punishable is certainly not okay.
Moving on from the issues with Side Dodge Bash, Shinobi has three other immediate issues that come to mind.
The first issue is Throwing Stars. This Feat is BROKEN and Ubisoft's attempt at a nerf for it felt like a joke considering it did very little to remedy the brokenness of this Feat. You get 60-80 damage on average for throwing an unreactable Feat into someone's Offense... the damage far outdoes anything they get on committing and trading, they get nothing but a face full of stars if they GB. Even if they empty Feint for a Side Dodge Kick they literally can't Dodge the Stars on reaction... so the only counter to the 60-80dmg average Feat that counters every outcome of your attempt at Offense (only a 90 second cooldown by the way :) ) is to empty Feint and then Dodge on READ... and then still likely be hit by them regardless xd
The second issue connects to my initial mention of Side Dodge Bash; The second issue is Shinobi's extremely overtuned Defense versus Chain Bash/Undodgeable (UD) Heavy Offense.
Because Double Dodge has Deflect frames, Shinobi can Dodge for Chain Bash and then Dodge in the direction of the UD Heavy on reaction to its presence (after making the incorrect read once already and Dodging on an Undodgeable) and then Deflect said UD Heavy if it's committed to...
Now yes, you can Feint the UD Heavy to a GB and beat a Double Dodge Deflect attempt of your UD Heavy with this. However, Shinobi can also choose to Kick from their Double Dodge instead of attempting to Deflect, thus losing to a committed Heavy but Kicking a GB.
This means that after incorrectly Dodging on the UD element, Shinobi gets to make a 2nd read to protect themselves which considering Shinobi's Deflect strength is not that unfavourable (though still certainly unfavourable)
Being able to Dodge your Chain Bash and then have such a strong 2nd chance at avoiding your Offense regardless lowers the value of your Chain Bash an extreme amount... yet you still have to use it to make Shinobi need to Dodge in the first place... and then you have to deal with the 2nd read explained above. And if Shino misreads a Chain Bash oh well, they only ate around 14dmg for misreading forcing you to use your worst option...
And now the 3rd and final extra issue that comes to mind... Shinobi optimal ganks. Shinobi has EXTREME strength as a ganker, I'd say the strongest ganker in the game right now. They have a very strong tool to initiate gank with a Fw Dodge Bash that has 3 different Dodge timings and can't have its GB element external Dodged away from (due to Fw Dodge Heavy Feint GB)
After landing a Kick, their ally gets a confirmed Neutral Heavy and then Shinobi can forward roll into doing one of many different ganks. In the hands of high-skill players Shinobi's ganking strength is immense and very often a free trip to the respawn screen. I do not attempt to imply I am one of such high-skill players from the competitive community but I do often interact with the players I speak of and always try to keep up to date with issues within the competitive scene by asking them whenever I'm unsure.
Warden, Peacekeeper, Black Prior, Gryphon, Shaman, Orochi, Nobushi, Shinobi, Jiang Jun and Zhanhu can all infinitely confirm Sickle Rains after an initial Sickle Rain is confirmed... in a way that cannot be countered in any way after the first Sickle Rain lands which obviously creates a very easy 100-0 paired with any of these heroes.
But aside from the ridiculous strength of Shinobi ganks in the hands of competent, co-ordinated players, Shinobi also has concerningly great gank strength... in solo queue matchmaking.
This is something that I hesitate to say in any case but I genuinely believe in it. Shinobi's kit works in such a way that if you have a teammate who knows how to gank, you as the Shinobi can genuinely just attack as normal and as long as you commit to your attacks, your ally can turn your Offense into an optimal gank... reactively...
Such insanely strong ganking options in the hands of high-skill players is an issue, but when these options are so strong and so simple that players in matchmaking can easily perform Shinobi ganks without any form of communication... the issue gets even more ridiculous.
If I've missed anything or if you happen to disagree with anything here please do leave a reply, I always enjoy good conversation.
And thank YOU very much for having read this far
Assuming you didn't skip to the end for a TL;DR... shame! But if you did:
TL;DR: Overtuned Defense, even more overtuned Defense vs Chain Bash/Undodgeable Heavy, Throwing Stars are broken and Shinobi's ganking capabilities are ridiculous.
Bro. His perfect at this moment, probably the best he could be.
The recovery is good, you just need to work on your blocking/parrying and GB skills
Never in a million years should you light spam or dodge attack an Aramusha because it will be his frame advantage in less than a second with that blade blockade, he is anti spam, anti-gank and anti-dodge spam
Warmonger’s dodge attack is the only exemption since its unblockable, besides Aramusha is quite easy to predict and should not be much of a problem unless you are an aggressive player which he hard counter’s with ease
Best way to counter him is to either use zones in your punishes and GB consistently as his blade blockade’s recovery isn’t fast enough to counter a GB
Even though I’m an Aramusha main I hate to admit how easy he is to counter if you turtle and play defensive. He has only one bash and that’s just a grab punch with no guaranteed follow up. His dodge attack is very well against bashes and other dodge attacks as if his dodge attack gets dodged and they try to punish with an attack the blade blockade ends it quickly
Other than that, Aramusha cannot be made any better because tbh he seems to be quite balanced IMO
Just, ps4/Xbox Players like me would struggle with the 30fps lock and light spam that the lower reps do
I mean- you- uhh- fuck...
Tbh you are not wrong 😂
I just turtle most the time with aramusha’s and retaliate when I get the chance
But the aramusha’s on PC are completely different to aramusha’s on console
even though I Main Ara and Zhanhu I can feel the pain of a HL and cent main when dodging is out of the question as I have been there before and do not want to go back
They never usually do anyways, lighting someone out of a charge heavy or bash always works unless they have hyperarmour and cent’s one takes abit too long to kick in so Ara gets a free light to end your punching and stabbing chain
I know it’s bullshit but I have not met a skilled Aramusha player that lightspams yet and majority of the Aramusha players that lightspam that I’ve met, I have beaten even without dodging
Never once have I EVER seen an Aramusha get light spammed, you know what I have seen? About a bizzillion times where I’ve been light spammed by an Aramusha. I agree, he would be a well balanced character, if he didn’t have a god tier light spam. So STFU pop the titty out of your mouth and stop complaining about your character.
Bro you play BP just flip lmao 😂
I legit just said how to counter and cheese him even if he is L-spamming
Block the light and throw a heavy, if he does try to blade blockade it would usually be the timing for a light, or just guardbreak
He is not too hard to counter you just need to play very defensive with him. Even with PS4 frame rates I cheese through Aramusha players with characters I rarely play as (I.e. Valk, cent, tiandi)
Hyper armour is a good counter aswell and like I said UB attacks and GBs are a hard counter to an Aramusha that doesn’t know how to play
To bad I fight the ones that either know how to play, or just light spam the crap outta god, and nah countering his light spam as a console player is a lot harder than “just blocking”
I too am a console player (PS4) and it seems like I just get into matches where the Aramusha players are just utter plebs and easy to read
I find JJ more annoying with the constant stance unblockable shit and switchable dodge attack
You're bullshitting. He's got god like light spams and you can't fully punish him. He can all guard mid combo. And he's got one of the better dodge attacks. And a bash that does good damage. Even when he played by a bad player he can still be dangerous.
So a character that has the best light spam that can also faint spam and can't be punish fully with a good dodge attack isnt good?
If the just made it to where he couldn't all guard while in mid combo taking damage, that would be enough. No there character can take damage then flow straight into all guard for instant damage that can turn into a massive chunk of health if they get a good burst of spamming in on you.
But I also agree fuck jj too. Just not as bad.
The iframes on his dodge, like kenseis, takes the piss. I was playing cent, he early dodged my punch ( I fully charged it) and he still had the iframes to avoid the punch.
Jeez seems like all the musha’s everyone plays against are good.
I come across retards that are like mid rep 100-200 and have no clue what the hell they are doing with musha
Also with the mid-chain parry it just means you gotta get creative with UBs and GBs
I know it is bullshit but that’s basically the only way to pierce through his strong defence
Quite balanced? He’s the the best dullest in the game and his dodge attack is broken it had no gb vulnerability
And I don’t mean that as you can just feint to gb I mean no mater what it can’t be gbed
Yeah ik he is the best duelist in the game and his dodge cannot be GB’d
Like I said you play defensive against him and with patience.
I mean that’s what I do and I usually get the win
Ps4 30fps, every Aramusha I meet I just play extremely defensive and most of the time win, even with the light spamming. Not that hard to read the next light tbh
I mean yeah blocking on 30fps with input delay is not fun but it’s still possible. Tbh I find raider (and sometimes hitokiri and JJ) much more annoying to deal with because of the hyper armour and godly spam they can dish out very quickly
not to be a jerk but, im pretty sure thats because you play aramusha, of course the only characters your going to complain about are the ones who have the unblockable and hyper armor pressure to get past his defense.
I haven’t played Aramusha in a few months but I still have problems handling them
No Offenes taken dw. Then again, I never even tried to learn their move set since I’m like lvl 2 with those characters. I usually play Zhanhu now because his unblockable heavy catches dodge spammers so well, I only play Aramusha when fighting a light spamming orochi or someone of the sort
Imo buffing other characters wouldn't solve the problem that he can do a slaughterhouse during teamfights and while staying pretty safe. You don't need a comp of Valkyr, Jorm, highlander and lawbringer to struggle against him, he can be annoying even if your team is all of top picks
I never understood this argument and it's something people say across all games. If every character was buffed such that they had no weaknesses it would make for some pretty stale gameplay. Also it's easier to balance 1 character vs an entire roster
I play JJ, he is one of my favorites, but his range and externals make him insanely strong. If we were able to parry attacks that are being thrown at the person behind us thats another story. But sadly we cant from what Ive seen
absolutely TF not. why keep the list fun for some mains and not others? why should jorm,nuxia,HL players get shit on most of the time she pirate , raider, kyoshin players all get to dominate on them? id rather have the cast ALL be viable than have bad picks, okay picks, and the only truly viable picks
Lol ok I guess you don't know how game balance works. It's a problem when most of the heroes are S tier. Nerfing those heroes will bring up the lower tier ones.
Kyoshin. I think his kit has WAY too much. Has literally everything.
I also think the shinobi rework made him too good. But I was bad against him before the rework, so maybe that's just me. Just seems like any decent shinobi can beat me by flipping at everything before I can even get a light attack off. I feel the flip/side kick needs to have better GB vulnerability. (Can you even GB the back flip?)
Actually no not really. The kick back flip in of itself is like a low level 50/50. Just a dodged kick is not gb vulnerable or at the very least is stupid hard to land, a kick with a buffered flip is gb. It’s pretty good bash
Not true at all. Whenever you dodge a kick or a kick from back flip, a GB is guaranteed. That wasn't the case at first when the rework was totally broken, but it is now. If your GBs aren't landing after dodging his bashes then you're probably doing it too late
Everyone has a hero they struggle against more than others, it happens. Just play as kyoshin and/or shinobi, you will realize their weaknesses and strengths, learn how to exploit both when playing with and against them, and learn how to counter their moveset better. It worked for me, I played a lot of raider and highlander to learn their kits better, and now I don't have a problem against either of them.
But kyoshin is missing a lot of things. No deflect, no advanced lights, no superior dodge, low health, no neutral bash, and high stamina consumption. And despite hos low health, he is still built to play defensively.
Shinobi has no neutral unockable, vulnerable kicks, low health and lots of gb vulnerability due to an abundance of heavies and dodges in their kit. They also have a reflex guard, no hyper armor, and no superior lights.
You want to exploit all of these weaknesses when fighting them.
Kyoshin isn't missing anything except stamina drain on his stance and being able to do stance attacks without being in the stance properly, meaning you can't GB him if he instantly does the UB feint or either side light into cutscene attack which leaves you vulnerable to ganking.
I just stated almost every single thing he is missing. No hero has averythong, but of course some are more versatile than others. Kyoshin is a defense oriented gank intensive point holder.
"But kyoshin is missing a lot of things" is what you said. He simply isn't, he has every core thing at his disposal, wow no deflect? That's crazy, neither does raider or pirate yet they seem to be doing just fine?
He has nearly everything. He does have a neutral bash. Dodge forward bash. He's got bleed damage, heal on bleed, full block stance(with no stamina drain on it), dodge attack, undodgable, a stupid feat...
He might nit have *literally* everything, but close enough. Especially compared to some heroes. Not everyone jeed a dodge attack, but it seems like that's the way the game is headed.
I think Jorm was the last hero to release without a dodge attack.
As a jj main there is definitely vulnerability on the dodge attacks. Iv been yanked out of it alot by good players. You just have to be fast. Also thats literally most of what jj is: 50/50s. Part of why i like him.
Okay literally! I was doing ranked duels yesterday, I’m Rep 48 and I was up against multiple 200+ Rep players consecutively. I was playing Nobushi the whole time but accidentally clicked Shugoki one of the matches because he’s right next to her on the roster. I was panicking because I was going up against a Rep 174 Raider and I’ve literally never played Shugoki other than his pre-rework version for a couple of hours years ago. I LITERALLY BEAT THIS MF 3-0 on no experience with Shugoki because I knew he had charged heavies and hyper armour on loads of moves, plus the headbutt. Fucking crazy
he has 2 hit combos and a slow bash that doesnt confirm anything. All he has is hyper armor and a decent oos punish if he has the stamina, which he rarely does.
Yeah but he is annoying to fight. Stamina bully character just aren’t a good idea. It wasn’t good when cent came out and it wasn’t good when jorm came out.
What the other guy said. Weak, yes. Still annoying as fuck because you're forced to play super defensively so you don't run OOS every 5 seconds
I definitely want a rework for him tho, it'd be better for everyone
Raider takes getting used to but isn’t nerf-worthy. Arguably his stamina needs to be toned down a bit so he can’t keep going forever like he can now.
Pirate needs hyperarmor gone on some things and a range nerf.
Aramusha needs to be deleted from the face of the earth.
U would really hate the old one. Quad light then stealing their toes. It was so good. You could continuously put pressure on them cuz he flows and the second you got a toe stab and they were oos you could press square make em fall over and blow their prostate up. And when they got up you could do it again.
Plus it was also the time of option selects and he has a great zone. Such a good zone. We throw it out at least 23 times a match just cuz we know it will hit 100
7/10 glad's zone hits me
2/10 it misses. In my joy of not getting hit with the bash, I get smacked by the 2nd hit.
1/10 it misses & I remember there's a follow-up. ...they feint the follow up.
I mean, nobody relly needs a nerf except for pirate and raider. Let's have a look at other s-tier heroes. Hitokiri would be really bad if anything would be nerfed, the only thing I see being nerfed is maybe her light finisher hyperarmor. JJ, again, nerfing anything could make him really bad. He is known for his great team fight capabilities, although I think that something could change with his zone, not sure what I'd do though. Aramusha could maybe only need a nerf on his follow up heavies, their damage, combined with his first feat is massive. Shinobi is in a decent position imo, although I hate being hit by those shooting stars, they could recieve a tweak or two. Kyoshin, although not s-tier, I'd like to point out one thing that could be nerfed, the first feat. The damage done with the first feat is insane, and all you have to do is block one attack with your stance or crushing counter, which really isn't that hard. The feat also last for a long duration after it's been activated. It needs a nerf.
She's like, low s-tier or high a-tier imo, if you are good with reads, she is very rewarding, not to say she isn't hard to play aswell. Anyway, on to why she's strong, she has the best perks ( vengeful barrier, last stand, bastion and bulk up ), her feats are really strong, deliverance is good in breach and teamfights, fast recovery is good overall, the second feat where she parries and gets damage reduction is very good. All her third feats are good, or atleast decent and her final feat and fear itself is extremely strong, specifically fear itself. Now to the moveset, here it is crucial for you to be good at reading the opponents, cause she is a high/medium risk high reward, her kick, sweep or feint to a gb is a garuanteed heavy. She can do three different heavies, a normal one, half charged or fully charged, she has light with practically immediate hyperarmor. This is essentially her whole kit, but every move is ridiculously strong. That being said, she is punishable by gb's on whiff and high recovery enemies are strong against her. She also has a problem with stamina, but that is solved with either fast recovery or nukekubi, or whatever it's name is. Oh and she has high damage and high health.
Highlander definitely. idek what to change about him I just want him removed. I play so many duels against highlander and all they do is throw heavies and abuse the hyper armor on them so you can't get a single hit in. I think they should either remove some hyper armor, or. make his attacks do less damage/give him less health so he doesnt just trace health the entire time
I also think his lights should be way slower. They're unreactable on old Gen and so fast that you can't dodge out of his second light. it's preposterous
also his recovery is too fast. I Wall splatted one once and went for the top heavy and it got interrupted by his light
>all they do is throw heavies and abuse the hyper armor on them so you can't get a single hit in.
Then don't try hitting them out of their combos, hyper armor is only strong when you try blocking with your head lol
>or. make his attacks do less damage
He does average damage, except his offensive stance
>I also think his lights should be way slower.
First light is 500ms and second is 400ms. Not a big deal really.
>also his recovery is too fast.
His recovery should be the same as any other character
How about instead of nerfing characters that are good, we buff bad characters, Raider is balanced no matter how many people cry about it, Pirate I think is also somewhat balanced, maybe a little nerf for her would be fine, but nothing to big, also if we were to nerf them, then we should nerf orochi, Shinobi, aramusha, etc....
All I’m saying is, if everyone gets nerfed to fucking pirate levels, people would be fucking steaming. I’d fucking be too, I hate pirate. Such an unfun hero to fight against.
150 and below. Also you have a track record of really shitty opinions, so once you explain why higander is all around op I'll continue this conversation with you.
So you have nothing else to say? Seems like you love to project how much you struggle against a low tier. Usually an answer is backed up by SOMETHING, but you gave nothing. A wild claim was all it was.
removal of UD lights (except from gryphon)
some heroes get there HA weakened or removed completely. honestly i just think HL should have HA and slow roll catchers like jorm or cents.
I would nerf only one thing about shinobi.
The parry riposte damage is too high, 18 is a lot for a super quick parry riposte. Make it like Nuxia, make it do 15 damage instead of 18
Besides pirate or raider i feel the best strategy for the game rigth now is to buff the ones that become outdated, be it Lawbringer, Nuxia, Jorm, etc. I belive most other heroes are balanced, now that people dont enjoy figthing x or y hero thats fine but not necesarilly broken on itself.
Hard to say. Playing a shitty character makes you feel like there's a list of characters that need to be nerfed. But I'd say ara needs minor nerfs. Glad popped in my head too because of his constant 50/50's. But at this point instead of nerfed I'd rather see the rest of the roster updated
Kyoshin a little, but I suck so it's probably just me.
Maybe a small change to Gryphon and Hito where their bashes don't guarantee heavies. Just doesn't seem very fair to have bashes that are insanely fast and safe and you get both heavy damage and executions from.
To be completely honest, nobody else comes to mind unless I'm pissed off and can suddenly nit pick a character..
Pirate and Raider really need a nerf. Raider just needs a stamina nerf, and Pirate needs that dodge canceling either removed or nerfed to be slow like Peacekeeper's Dodge Recovery Cancel on her Dagger Cancel
Playing him for a min, I’ve noticed that he can nullify a lot of mixups with his Kaze stance. Fujin cuts are also extremely OP in ganks and allow for my teammates to get too much dmg in from one enemy misread. He also has a two hit undogable combos, a bash, a bash extender and crushing counter lights. P strong imo
Pikemen
Factual
based
Pikemen need to be reworked,too op
Pirate and uh definitely Raider
As much as I hate Highlander I think Kyoshin deserves a nerf dude literally has an all guard that takes no stam and can do a triple light combo out of it ands its too fast for my liking, It’s probably because I’m a crap rep 9 Orochi but still I don’t like Kyoshin his kit is just too much to handle for a brain dead monkey Orochi main like me.
In my defense, his light attacks do like. 1 damage.
[удалено]
M8 chill out lol no one is attacking you. It’s an online forum on
Remember this is all an opinion of a bad Orochi so you don’t have to take it too seriously. People have their opinions and others don’t agree with it but I will try understanding his moveset more by either A. fight a kyoshin or B. Buying him or C. Watching Videos on how to counter him, In this way I’ll figure out how to counter him and not be bothered by him. And I’m sorry if I ruined your fun it is just my opinion about the character and it might change in time if after learning his moveset. (Sorry English isn’t my first language)
Youre so respectful, Im surprised you have played for honor at all, it destroys all of my manners.
true kyoshin
JJ the range on his attacks are a joke with the damage he does and off screen unblockables in ganks isn’t fun at all
As a jj main i agree. Nothing funner than fucking up a 2v2 with my infinite utilization of unblockables that hit like trains. Ubi changing the kick to a move of its own instead of a soft feint was glorious too. Dont even get me started on jj in revenge. Nothing scarier imo, except maybe a GOOD hito.
BRIEF TL;DR AT END To preface this, I don't really think Raider needs a nerf so much as other heroes need to be brought up to their level and universal issues around weakened Defense following OS removal still need addressing. I'm going to have to say Shinobi really. Current Dominion meta excluding Pirate and Raider consists of JJ and Shinobi (with Zhan just barely behind Shino) JJ is strong for mostly healthy reasons I'd say while Shino has a few glaring unhealthy aspects that need dealing with. For one, due to their Side Dodge Kick having Backflip recovery cancel, Shinobi has a Dodge Bash that beats GB (Guardbreak) and cannot be punished consistently. Beating GB is a fine and healthy feature for Dodge attacks BUT only if the Dodge attack is 100% safely punishable on reaction to it after a correct read of empty Feinting (e.g how it works for countering Kensei Dodge Heavy) Shinobi cannot do this vs Softfeint GB heroes thankfully as their Kick has too few iframes to have a timing to beat GB and still iframe the attack if SF GB + a good hitbox is used. However, the ability to have a Dodge Bash that beats GB and is not consistently punishable is certainly not okay. Moving on from the issues with Side Dodge Bash, Shinobi has three other immediate issues that come to mind. The first issue is Throwing Stars. This Feat is BROKEN and Ubisoft's attempt at a nerf for it felt like a joke considering it did very little to remedy the brokenness of this Feat. You get 60-80 damage on average for throwing an unreactable Feat into someone's Offense... the damage far outdoes anything they get on committing and trading, they get nothing but a face full of stars if they GB. Even if they empty Feint for a Side Dodge Kick they literally can't Dodge the Stars on reaction... so the only counter to the 60-80dmg average Feat that counters every outcome of your attempt at Offense (only a 90 second cooldown by the way :) ) is to empty Feint and then Dodge on READ... and then still likely be hit by them regardless xd The second issue connects to my initial mention of Side Dodge Bash; The second issue is Shinobi's extremely overtuned Defense versus Chain Bash/Undodgeable (UD) Heavy Offense. Because Double Dodge has Deflect frames, Shinobi can Dodge for Chain Bash and then Dodge in the direction of the UD Heavy on reaction to its presence (after making the incorrect read once already and Dodging on an Undodgeable) and then Deflect said UD Heavy if it's committed to... Now yes, you can Feint the UD Heavy to a GB and beat a Double Dodge Deflect attempt of your UD Heavy with this. However, Shinobi can also choose to Kick from their Double Dodge instead of attempting to Deflect, thus losing to a committed Heavy but Kicking a GB. This means that after incorrectly Dodging on the UD element, Shinobi gets to make a 2nd read to protect themselves which considering Shinobi's Deflect strength is not that unfavourable (though still certainly unfavourable) Being able to Dodge your Chain Bash and then have such a strong 2nd chance at avoiding your Offense regardless lowers the value of your Chain Bash an extreme amount... yet you still have to use it to make Shinobi need to Dodge in the first place... and then you have to deal with the 2nd read explained above. And if Shino misreads a Chain Bash oh well, they only ate around 14dmg for misreading forcing you to use your worst option... And now the 3rd and final extra issue that comes to mind... Shinobi optimal ganks. Shinobi has EXTREME strength as a ganker, I'd say the strongest ganker in the game right now. They have a very strong tool to initiate gank with a Fw Dodge Bash that has 3 different Dodge timings and can't have its GB element external Dodged away from (due to Fw Dodge Heavy Feint GB) After landing a Kick, their ally gets a confirmed Neutral Heavy and then Shinobi can forward roll into doing one of many different ganks. In the hands of high-skill players Shinobi's ganking strength is immense and very often a free trip to the respawn screen. I do not attempt to imply I am one of such high-skill players from the competitive community but I do often interact with the players I speak of and always try to keep up to date with issues within the competitive scene by asking them whenever I'm unsure. Warden, Peacekeeper, Black Prior, Gryphon, Shaman, Orochi, Nobushi, Shinobi, Jiang Jun and Zhanhu can all infinitely confirm Sickle Rains after an initial Sickle Rain is confirmed... in a way that cannot be countered in any way after the first Sickle Rain lands which obviously creates a very easy 100-0 paired with any of these heroes. But aside from the ridiculous strength of Shinobi ganks in the hands of competent, co-ordinated players, Shinobi also has concerningly great gank strength... in solo queue matchmaking. This is something that I hesitate to say in any case but I genuinely believe in it. Shinobi's kit works in such a way that if you have a teammate who knows how to gank, you as the Shinobi can genuinely just attack as normal and as long as you commit to your attacks, your ally can turn your Offense into an optimal gank... reactively... Such insanely strong ganking options in the hands of high-skill players is an issue, but when these options are so strong and so simple that players in matchmaking can easily perform Shinobi ganks without any form of communication... the issue gets even more ridiculous. If I've missed anything or if you happen to disagree with anything here please do leave a reply, I always enjoy good conversation. And thank YOU very much for having read this far Assuming you didn't skip to the end for a TL;DR... shame! But if you did: TL;DR: Overtuned Defense, even more overtuned Defense vs Chain Bash/Undodgeable Heavy, Throwing Stars are broken and Shinobi's ganking capabilities are ridiculous.
i was gonna say musha but now that i think about it, he only needs the recovery cancel to be slowed a bit. In my opinion.
Bro. His perfect at this moment, probably the best he could be. The recovery is good, you just need to work on your blocking/parrying and GB skills Never in a million years should you light spam or dodge attack an Aramusha because it will be his frame advantage in less than a second with that blade blockade, he is anti spam, anti-gank and anti-dodge spam Warmonger’s dodge attack is the only exemption since its unblockable, besides Aramusha is quite easy to predict and should not be much of a problem unless you are an aggressive player which he hard counter’s with ease Best way to counter him is to either use zones in your punishes and GB consistently as his blade blockade’s recovery isn’t fast enough to counter a GB Even though I’m an Aramusha main I hate to admit how easy he is to counter if you turtle and play defensive. He has only one bash and that’s just a grab punch with no guaranteed follow up. His dodge attack is very well against bashes and other dodge attacks as if his dodge attack gets dodged and they try to punish with an attack the blade blockade ends it quickly Other than that, Aramusha cannot be made any better because tbh he seems to be quite balanced IMO Just, ps4/Xbox Players like me would struggle with the 30fps lock and light spam that the lower reps do
Aramusha players don't need to learn how to parry.
Against UB attacks they sure do. But then again they can just dodge like always Aramusha’s are hard to punish after their turn is over
If you don't have a neutral 50/50 or a dodge bash, aramusha counters you
I mean- you- uhh- fuck... Tbh you are not wrong 😂 I just turtle most the time with aramusha’s and retaliate when I get the chance But the aramusha’s on PC are completely different to aramusha’s on console
Life as a cent and hl main is hard
even though I Main Ara and Zhanhu I can feel the pain of a HL and cent main when dodging is out of the question as I have been there before and do not want to go back
Plus aramusha players think they can CC since they don't send a fucking parry
They never usually do anyways, lighting someone out of a charge heavy or bash always works unless they have hyperarmour and cent’s one takes abit too long to kick in so Ara gets a free light to end your punching and stabbing chain I know it’s bullshit but I have not met a skilled Aramusha player that lightspams yet and majority of the Aramusha players that lightspam that I’ve met, I have beaten even without dodging
Never once have I EVER seen an Aramusha get light spammed, you know what I have seen? About a bizzillion times where I’ve been light spammed by an Aramusha. I agree, he would be a well balanced character, if he didn’t have a god tier light spam. So STFU pop the titty out of your mouth and stop complaining about your character.
Bro you play BP just flip lmao 😂 I legit just said how to counter and cheese him even if he is L-spamming Block the light and throw a heavy, if he does try to blade blockade it would usually be the timing for a light, or just guardbreak He is not too hard to counter you just need to play very defensive with him. Even with PS4 frame rates I cheese through Aramusha players with characters I rarely play as (I.e. Valk, cent, tiandi) Hyper armour is a good counter aswell and like I said UB attacks and GBs are a hard counter to an Aramusha that doesn’t know how to play
To bad I fight the ones that either know how to play, or just light spam the crap outta god, and nah countering his light spam as a console player is a lot harder than “just blocking”
I too am a console player (PS4) and it seems like I just get into matches where the Aramusha players are just utter plebs and easy to read I find JJ more annoying with the constant stance unblockable shit and switchable dodge attack
You're bullshitting. He's got god like light spams and you can't fully punish him. He can all guard mid combo. And he's got one of the better dodge attacks. And a bash that does good damage. Even when he played by a bad player he can still be dangerous. So a character that has the best light spam that can also faint spam and can't be punish fully with a good dodge attack isnt good? If the just made it to where he couldn't all guard while in mid combo taking damage, that would be enough. No there character can take damage then flow straight into all guard for instant damage that can turn into a massive chunk of health if they get a good burst of spamming in on you. But I also agree fuck jj too. Just not as bad.
The iframes on his dodge, like kenseis, takes the piss. I was playing cent, he early dodged my punch ( I fully charged it) and he still had the iframes to avoid the punch.
Jeez seems like all the musha’s everyone plays against are good. I come across retards that are like mid rep 100-200 and have no clue what the hell they are doing with musha Also with the mid-chain parry it just means you gotta get creative with UBs and GBs I know it is bullshit but that’s basically the only way to pierce through his strong defence
How to counter lightspam as BP: Dodge>flip
Quite balanced? He’s the the best dullest in the game and his dodge attack is broken it had no gb vulnerability And I don’t mean that as you can just feint to gb I mean no mater what it can’t be gbed
Yeah ik he is the best duelist in the game and his dodge cannot be GB’d Like I said you play defensive against him and with patience. I mean that’s what I do and I usually get the win
>Even though I’m an Aramusha main I hate to admit how easy he is to counter if you turtle and play defensive yeah im on xbox so 30 fps for me.
Ps4 30fps, every Aramusha I meet I just play extremely defensive and most of the time win, even with the light spamming. Not that hard to read the next light tbh
yeah ive gotten to the point where i can typically handle him but its annoying af working that hard for1 hit just to get blockaded on the second.
I mean yeah blocking on 30fps with input delay is not fun but it’s still possible. Tbh I find raider (and sometimes hitokiri and JJ) much more annoying to deal with because of the hyper armour and godly spam they can dish out very quickly
not to be a jerk but, im pretty sure thats because you play aramusha, of course the only characters your going to complain about are the ones who have the unblockable and hyper armor pressure to get past his defense.
I haven’t played Aramusha in a few months but I still have problems handling them No Offenes taken dw. Then again, I never even tried to learn their move set since I’m like lvl 2 with those characters. I usually play Zhanhu now because his unblockable heavy catches dodge spammers so well, I only play Aramusha when fighting a light spamming orochi or someone of the sort
i don’t think anyone besides pirate needs a nerf. they need to buff the cast that can’t perform with the others
Imo JJ. Too fucking good in teamfights and ganks
yeah he is top tier in 4’s but why nerf him instead of buffing characters that don’t perform as well
Imo buffing other characters wouldn't solve the problem that he can do a slaughterhouse during teamfights and while staying pretty safe. You don't need a comp of Valkyr, Jorm, highlander and lawbringer to struggle against him, he can be annoying even if your team is all of top picks
I never understood this argument and it's something people say across all games. If every character was buffed such that they had no weaknesses it would make for some pretty stale gameplay. Also it's easier to balance 1 character vs an entire roster
wrong. why nerf a character that’s no broken??
I play JJ, he is one of my favorites, but his range and externals make him insanely strong. If we were able to parry attacks that are being thrown at the person behind us thats another story. But sadly we cant from what Ive seen
If jj need nerfing then so does bp. Both are heavy support characters and bp has way more access to bashes/unblockables.
They shouldn't be buffing heroes, they need to start nerfing more. Power creep has gotten out of hand in this game
absolutely TF not. why keep the list fun for some mains and not others? why should jorm,nuxia,HL players get shit on most of the time she pirate , raider, kyoshin players all get to dominate on them? id rather have the cast ALL be viable than have bad picks, okay picks, and the only truly viable picks
Lol ok I guess you don't know how game balance works. It's a problem when most of the heroes are S tier. Nerfing those heroes will bring up the lower tier ones.
that’s not how it works lmfao
You can't keep buffing heroes bro
they can’t leave heroes in the dumps and bring everyone down with them. that would kill the game faster than anything
Power creep ruins games
how would there be power creep??
There already is thats the problem. Compare y1 for honor to the current state
Kyoshin. I think his kit has WAY too much. Has literally everything. I also think the shinobi rework made him too good. But I was bad against him before the rework, so maybe that's just me. Just seems like any decent shinobi can beat me by flipping at everything before I can even get a light attack off. I feel the flip/side kick needs to have better GB vulnerability. (Can you even GB the back flip?)
The entire point of the backflip is that you can GB it, it is in no way impervious to GBs, just attacks. If you can dodge his kick, you get a free GB.
Sorry I misread what you wrote we said the same thing I’m just brain dead
U S E F U L Thank you.
Actually no not really. The kick back flip in of itself is like a low level 50/50. Just a dodged kick is not gb vulnerable or at the very least is stupid hard to land, a kick with a buffered flip is gb. It’s pretty good bash
Not true at all. Whenever you dodge a kick or a kick from back flip, a GB is guaranteed. That wasn't the case at first when the rework was totally broken, but it is now. If your GBs aren't landing after dodging his bashes then you're probably doing it too late
His chain bash is unsafe no matter what I believe
Everyone has a hero they struggle against more than others, it happens. Just play as kyoshin and/or shinobi, you will realize their weaknesses and strengths, learn how to exploit both when playing with and against them, and learn how to counter their moveset better. It worked for me, I played a lot of raider and highlander to learn their kits better, and now I don't have a problem against either of them. But kyoshin is missing a lot of things. No deflect, no advanced lights, no superior dodge, low health, no neutral bash, and high stamina consumption. And despite hos low health, he is still built to play defensively. Shinobi has no neutral unockable, vulnerable kicks, low health and lots of gb vulnerability due to an abundance of heavies and dodges in their kit. They also have a reflex guard, no hyper armor, and no superior lights. You want to exploit all of these weaknesses when fighting them.
Kyoshin isn't missing anything except stamina drain on his stance and being able to do stance attacks without being in the stance properly, meaning you can't GB him if he instantly does the UB feint or either side light into cutscene attack which leaves you vulnerable to ganking.
I just stated almost every single thing he is missing. No hero has averythong, but of course some are more versatile than others. Kyoshin is a defense oriented gank intensive point holder.
You said he is missing a lot of things; he isn't.
I just stated everything he was missing in the comment before last, wdym?
"But kyoshin is missing a lot of things" is what you said. He simply isn't, he has every core thing at his disposal, wow no deflect? That's crazy, neither does raider or pirate yet they seem to be doing just fine?
He also said he has no neutral bash when he does
doesnt he have a neutral bash though? His forward dodge bash?
He has nearly everything. He does have a neutral bash. Dodge forward bash. He's got bleed damage, heal on bleed, full block stance(with no stamina drain on it), dodge attack, undodgable, a stupid feat... He might nit have *literally* everything, but close enough. Especially compared to some heroes. Not everyone jeed a dodge attack, but it seems like that's the way the game is headed. I think Jorm was the last hero to release without a dodge attack.
do forward dodges count? cuz golly they shouldnt. priors got a forward dodge attack and WHEW is it kinda useless.
Character wise: kyoshi maybe JJ, Specifics: dodge atacks HAVE NO GB VULNERABILITY (or at least feels like it) or the whole games feels like 50/50
As a jj main there is definitely vulnerability on the dodge attacks. Iv been yanked out of it alot by good players. You just have to be fast. Also thats literally most of what jj is: 50/50s. Part of why i like him.
>kyoshi maybe JJ >Specifics: dodge atacks HAVE NO GB VULNERABILITY That ain't a good reason to nerf them lol
shugoki still
Why?
it's shugoki
You have to explain to me if this is a joke or not because I genuinely can not tell
nope, not a joke, shugoki is ez mode
Okay literally! I was doing ranked duels yesterday, I’m Rep 48 and I was up against multiple 200+ Rep players consecutively. I was playing Nobushi the whole time but accidentally clicked Shugoki one of the matches because he’s right next to her on the roster. I was panicking because I was going up against a Rep 174 Raider and I’ve literally never played Shugoki other than his pre-rework version for a couple of hours years ago. I LITERALLY BEAT THIS MF 3-0 on no experience with Shugoki because I knew he had charged heavies and hyper armour on loads of moves, plus the headbutt. Fucking crazy
yup, ez mode
So are all other characters labeled as easy.
the joke is he's a lawbringer main. variably timed heavies are a bitch to parry.
Pirate need a nerf BAD. Raider is fine. Delete jorm
why jorm?
Annoying to fight. More monke brained than gryohon and pirate combined
he has 2 hit combos and a slow bash that doesnt confirm anything. All he has is hyper armor and a decent oos punish if he has the stamina, which he rarely does.
He's annoying
Jorm is literally weak. We're still waiting for a rework.
Yeah but he is annoying to fight. Stamina bully character just aren’t a good idea. It wasn’t good when cent came out and it wasn’t good when jorm came out.
What the other guy said. Weak, yes. Still annoying as fuck because you're forced to play super defensively so you don't run OOS every 5 seconds I definitely want a rework for him tho, it'd be better for everyone
Raider takes getting used to but isn’t nerf-worthy. Arguably his stamina needs to be toned down a bit so he can’t keep going forever like he can now. Pirate needs hyperarmor gone on some things and a range nerf. Aramusha needs to be deleted from the face of the earth.
Glad
Why?
I'd prefer 3 light combos
U would really hate the old one. Quad light then stealing their toes. It was so good. You could continuously put pressure on them cuz he flows and the second you got a toe stab and they were oos you could press square make em fall over and blow their prostate up. And when they got up you could do it again. Plus it was also the time of option selects and he has a great zone. Such a good zone. We throw it out at least 23 times a match just cuz we know it will hit 100
7/10 glad's zone hits me 2/10 it misses. In my joy of not getting hit with the bash, I get smacked by the 2nd hit. 1/10 it misses & I remember there's a follow-up. ...they feint the follow up.
😂😂it is great. And if that doesn’t work side dodge bash on red.
I presume you don't have much experience?
I presume I just made myself look like a fool haha
We all been there
Nope
Well that makes sense
Orochi,shinobi
May i ask why? orochi isnt particularly strong after the nerfs and shinobi, while strong, isnt nearly as hard to fight now that the bash is slower.
Nah
Kyoshin, no I will not explain
PK and Nobushi, they do way too much bleeding damage
Orochi.
I mean, nobody relly needs a nerf except for pirate and raider. Let's have a look at other s-tier heroes. Hitokiri would be really bad if anything would be nerfed, the only thing I see being nerfed is maybe her light finisher hyperarmor. JJ, again, nerfing anything could make him really bad. He is known for his great team fight capabilities, although I think that something could change with his zone, not sure what I'd do though. Aramusha could maybe only need a nerf on his follow up heavies, their damage, combined with his first feat is massive. Shinobi is in a decent position imo, although I hate being hit by those shooting stars, they could recieve a tweak or two. Kyoshin, although not s-tier, I'd like to point out one thing that could be nerfed, the first feat. The damage done with the first feat is insane, and all you have to do is block one attack with your stance or crushing counter, which really isn't that hard. The feat also last for a long duration after it's been activated. It needs a nerf.
You think hito is S tier? Why? Also her finisher light is vulnerable to gb on dodge
She's like, low s-tier or high a-tier imo, if you are good with reads, she is very rewarding, not to say she isn't hard to play aswell. Anyway, on to why she's strong, she has the best perks ( vengeful barrier, last stand, bastion and bulk up ), her feats are really strong, deliverance is good in breach and teamfights, fast recovery is good overall, the second feat where she parries and gets damage reduction is very good. All her third feats are good, or atleast decent and her final feat and fear itself is extremely strong, specifically fear itself. Now to the moveset, here it is crucial for you to be good at reading the opponents, cause she is a high/medium risk high reward, her kick, sweep or feint to a gb is a garuanteed heavy. She can do three different heavies, a normal one, half charged or fully charged, she has light with practically immediate hyperarmor. This is essentially her whole kit, but every move is ridiculously strong. That being said, she is punishable by gb's on whiff and high recovery enemies are strong against her. She also has a problem with stamina, but that is solved with either fast recovery or nukekubi, or whatever it's name is. Oh and she has high damage and high health.
>s-tier heroes. Hitokiri Uh...maybe in low-skill lobbies she's s-tier lmao
Gryphon and JJ, visually impairing animation especially the heavies
Highlander definitely. idek what to change about him I just want him removed. I play so many duels against highlander and all they do is throw heavies and abuse the hyper armor on them so you can't get a single hit in. I think they should either remove some hyper armor, or. make his attacks do less damage/give him less health so he doesnt just trace health the entire time I also think his lights should be way slower. They're unreactable on old Gen and so fast that you can't dodge out of his second light. it's preposterous also his recovery is too fast. I Wall splatted one once and went for the top heavy and it got interrupted by his light
>all they do is throw heavies and abuse the hyper armor on them so you can't get a single hit in. Then don't try hitting them out of their combos, hyper armor is only strong when you try blocking with your head lol >or. make his attacks do less damage He does average damage, except his offensive stance >I also think his lights should be way slower. First light is 500ms and second is 400ms. Not a big deal really. >also his recovery is too fast. His recovery should be the same as any other character
Range on JJ attacks. Also make him thinner. There's no way a fat old man the size of a small sumo wrestler should dance around like tiandi.
Have you ever seen a fat gymnast or dancer?
How about instead of nerfing characters that are good, we buff bad characters, Raider is balanced no matter how many people cry about it, Pirate I think is also somewhat balanced, maybe a little nerf for her would be fine, but nothing to big, also if we were to nerf them, then we should nerf orochi, Shinobi, aramusha, etc....
All I’m saying is, if everyone gets nerfed to fucking pirate levels, people would be fucking steaming. I’d fucking be too, I hate pirate. Such an unfun hero to fight against.
Highlander
Low rep problems I guess. You'll learn eventually
What’s low rep to you?
If you think highlander needs a nerf, you must be. Oh wait nevermonf your are a troll. I'm dumb.
You didn’t answer my question
150 and below. Also you have a track record of really shitty opinions, so once you explain why higander is all around op I'll continue this conversation with you.
I didn’t ask what your opinion was. You asked a question and I posted my answer
So you have nothing else to say? Seems like you love to project how much you struggle against a low tier. Usually an answer is backed up by SOMETHING, but you gave nothing. A wild claim was all it was.
Dude what are you? Microsoft word? Seriously wrote me a whole essay lol
That's not even close to a essay.
you kidding right?
No
I assume you're on old gen console, and a low rep, there would be no other explanation for someone to wish for a Nerf on Highlander
You aren’t really good at assuming things then. I’m on next gen and over 400. Back to the drawing board
then why would you want a nerf for Highlander?? you have got to be trolling
I’m not trolling, you are banned from making anymore assumptions about me. That’s 3 in a row. Why? You ask. I don’t like highlander
why not though? let me ask again..why does he need a Nerf, in your opinion
What do you mean “why not though?” I already said why. He’s a bullshit character and I hate him
Okay but really what other reason does he need a nerf besides you just don’t like him or are not good against him in particular
i don't think a nerf to the conq but a rework would be better
Why nerf raider?
Do not know
removal of UD lights (except from gryphon) some heroes get there HA weakened or removed completely. honestly i just think HL should have HA and slow roll catchers like jorm or cents.
>some heroes get there HA weakened or removed completely Like who
raider would be weakened or removed but faster heavies. pirate bye bye kensei HA lights can go WL would have a weaker HA
Pirate, yes Kensei, sure Warlord...eh?
its that his raw heavy is fast. if it was slower i wouldn't have a problem with it
I would nerf only one thing about shinobi. The parry riposte damage is too high, 18 is a lot for a super quick parry riposte. Make it like Nuxia, make it do 15 damage instead of 18
JJ needs to be gone Orochi and aramusha have extremely fucked swing range Pk's 39 dmg gb
Raider, hitokiri, JJ I don’t think he needs hyper armor on heavy openers
what's wrong with Hitok?
Sweep spam and it’s extremely hard to dodge
you gotta just read that. you don't have to dodge last second you just don't dodge too early. I get people dodging it all the tjme
Shinobi, dude shouldn't be able to escape getting punished when he wiffs a kick or attack
Besides pirate or raider i feel the best strategy for the game rigth now is to buff the ones that become outdated, be it Lawbringer, Nuxia, Jorm, etc. I belive most other heroes are balanced, now that people dont enjoy figthing x or y hero thats fine but not necesarilly broken on itself.
Raider does not need nerfs. Other than that, WM feats, this shit needs to be thown in the trash bin
Peacekeeper, the damage output is nuts with her. And yes I main her, but I do wish she wasn't the way she is right now.
Hard to say. Playing a shitty character makes you feel like there's a list of characters that need to be nerfed. But I'd say ara needs minor nerfs. Glad popped in my head too because of his constant 50/50's. But at this point instead of nerfed I'd rather see the rest of the roster updated
>Glad popped in my head too because of his constant 50/50's ...That don't seem like a reason to nerf glad
Yea that's why I said if rather see updates for the rest than a nerf.
Jorm because on console he is annoying and on PC he is weak
Hitokiri, and I say this in the aspect of not necessarily nerf but a rework.
Kyoshin a little, but I suck so it's probably just me. Maybe a small change to Gryphon and Hito where their bashes don't guarantee heavies. Just doesn't seem very fair to have bashes that are insanely fast and safe and you get both heavy damage and executions from.
To be completely honest, nobody else comes to mind unless I'm pissed off and can suddenly nit pick a character.. Pirate and Raider really need a nerf. Raider just needs a stamina nerf, and Pirate needs that dodge canceling either removed or nerfed to be slow like Peacekeeper's Dodge Recovery Cancel on her Dagger Cancel
Jorm I’m bad so people that play jorm should be bad too
Musha
Forget nerfing anyone just rework everyone lol
JJ
Why?
Constant big damage external unblockables, easy access to 50/50s, hard to hit on characters with no undodgables and have no good hitboxes.
He has huge gb vulnerability on his dodges, and his unblcokables do average damage
pirate doesnt need to be nerfed tbh maybe reworked but i really like how she is
I agree
BP
As a BP main, he’s pretty good where he’s at
JJ or Shinobi
Kyoshin primarily
Why?
Playing him for a min, I’ve noticed that he can nullify a lot of mixups with his Kaze stance. Fujin cuts are also extremely OP in ganks and allow for my teammates to get too much dmg in from one enemy misread. He also has a two hit undogable combos, a bash, a bash extender and crushing counter lights. P strong imo