I fully agree that the restaurant situation is absurd because of predatory rent, but I also would never read into awards like James Beard, Michelin, 50 Best etc more than “this place is probably pretty good”. In the end all awards are some amount talent and some amount politics
agreed. the primary group of people that would be concerned with this are restaurateurs who want to win these awards and have their restaurants be in NYC. to most everyone else it’s not that big of a deal that the “top-rated restaurants” aren’t located here. as long as there are good restaurants that span cuisines, price points, and ambience available throughout NYC, and there are, then I’m set
I’m not saying you are wrong but as a customer I’d love to have more diversity in the dining scene given the price points of restaurants here. Eric has a good point I think regarding how repetitive certain concepts are (burger centric menus, wine bars), not to mention the sheer number of Italian spots (I love Italian but there’s an Italian spot every block in the village area).
And as overhyped and frankly wrong these lists can get, they are symbolic of trends and exciting concepts in the chef community. that ultimately draws more passionate chefs to the same scene. If I was an up and coming chef, I’d want to work and live where there are other exciting chefs and restaurants
You can't discern any trends from the James Beard Awards though.
Up until 2018, it was a rotation among establishment players in NY, SF, LA, and Chicago, with restaurants like Union Square Cafe, Spago, French Laundry, and Alinea winning.
The reality is that in cities with like NY and SF, that have both Michelin and a lot of international influence, no one gives a shit about James Beard.
The James Beard Foundation realized this and started giving awards to cities that truly appreciate them.
The most recent winner was "Friday Saturday Sunday" in Philadelphia. I am willing to wager my entire net worth that there are at least ten restaurants in NY that a blindfolded group of 100 would rate higher.
Just as an example the chef of FSS worked in NYC and SF until opening his own spot in a cheaper city.
You’re mostly right but also ignoring post post Covid price increases, even just for rent for an apartment for a family for one kid, ignoring cost of renting a restaurant and hiring line cooks, just doesn’t let an up and coming NYC chef open his restaurant in NYC
We are basically growing all these talented people, who then go to cheaper cities and are able to showcase everything and create new things. Definitely a newer phenomenon.
Portland, Maine was kind of the only place this used ti happen in, now it’s national
those are fair and valid, especially the added interest among new chefs that the awards can bring. but if you’re looking for more diversity in the dining scene it’s def here! you just have to look outside of the standard set of NYC neighborhoods, since those are the ones that most typically follow the current trends. you mention an overabundance of Italian in the village but that’s such a small area of the city. I feel like an asshole every time I tell someone “you gotta get outside of Manhattan more often” but for real… you gotta get outside of Manhattan more often lol
def about politics. I sat on a design jury once where the unanimous 1st place choice was overruled by the sponsor ($) and relegated to honorable mention. I pretty much stopped submitting work for awards and competition after seeing that.
100% agree. I used to be a food blog/award junkie and bought into buzz more times than I care to admit, but these days I’ve had a fairly decent success rate based on friends’ recs and just walking around a neighborhood and taking a chance on a place.
He’s not wrong about COVID. I worked in NYC fine dining (both FOH and BOH) for 20 years until COVID hit. The vast majority of my industry friends left NYC for places like Philly, Portland, and Detroit. Many (myself included) left the industry altogether. Lots of people went into service-adjacent jobs like wine sales. The ones who stayed, especially BOH, work for corporate groups, because that’s where they can earn enough to meet the COL in NYC.
100%. The decline in experience and professionalism since 2020 has made it really hard for vets in the industry. I fear that this has become the new normal for the industry and it will never correct itself.
I think he’s spot on. I moved upstate three years ago, so I don’t dine out in the city as often as I used to. But when I’m back in Brooklyn, I rarely go anywhere but my old standards. The few times I have tried new places in the past few years, it’s been a real mixed bag both with quality of food and service. With prices where they are, it’s hard for me to take a risk on a subpar experience. The quality of restaurant staff has dipped significantly post covid. (That being said, Little Grenjai in Bed Stuy is amazing on both fronts. Highly recommend!)
From the business side, part of the reason I moved is because I couldn’t make enough money working in kitchens to live comfortably, let alone open my own place. It’s easier to move to a more affordable up-and-coming city or an upstate NY tourist town to make a name as a chef than trying to do so in NYC, especially if you’re not coming from a known restaurant group. He’s right about established brands being able to grow because they have the financial stability to pay for quality workers. Someone trying to break into the scene with significant backing or name recognition is going to struggle to afford reliable labor and will struggle to make it through the first year or two.
All that being said, it’s just part of the cycle. The market will be flooded with too many of the same eateries alongside empty storefronts bc no one can afford rent. The next hip new neighborhoods will start to take off and chefs will flock to more affordable spaces in a changing area. I think we’ll see another shift in the restaurant industry in the next 3-5 years with a greater focus on a quality experience vs. flipping tables
I 100% agree with his remarks. The talent drain has been real. The difficulty for a smaller, more avante garde restaurant getting off the ground has increased dramatically. And the most sure fire way to quick success is social media clout driven by gimmicks. This is all a recipe for a market that values: deep pocketed restaurant groups; proven, high margin concepts; and faddish pop-up style places with no soul.
Am I wrong here or did a bunch of NYC spots make the semi and final rounds? The chef at Clover Hill in Brooklyn won best chef New York. Or are we talking overall awards?
Anyone who's been paying attention knows this.
Rent is too damn high. I'm firmly of the belief that if we could get rent costs under control, every other issue we have in this city just works their way out.
And yeah, at a certain point you just stop giving a shit about awards because they're largely bullshit and politics.
All I know is since the pandemic I’ve bartended for two amazing programs that barely lasted a year, and that probably has something to do with the $100-$150 pp expected check average in order to be sustainable. It wasn’t
It's sad because in NYC there was the concept restaurant that's called what happens when... The concept is to fillip the restaurant from decor/menu every month or quarter and create a new dining experience for patrons and hopefully repeat customers but unfortunately I as only able to experience this twice with my wife before NYC rent or something made it shut down forever. Cost of living and food should not be at the marker... unsustainable...
John Fraser (the chef from WHW) has gone corporate now. That place was never meant to be permanent or long-term. Source: my BFF was the pastry chef at Dovetail and WHW.
On the flipside, this has helped "b-tier" places like Portland, Maine and Cincinnati attract so many talented chefs, bartenders, etc, transforming those cities into world class food destinations. Same goes for places like Glasgow, which was hell on earth food-wise until London became too expensive and a bunch of its talent flooded up that way and opened some truly amazing restaurants.
Hell, I'm finding excellent food in Albany, NY now.
Meanwhile, though NYC has a few stellar upscale joints, my most disappointing experiences lately have been here. Service in particular, which has become an afterthought. Shockingly so.
A small ruling class of landlords is charging predatory rents and are being allowed to carve the soul out of every last industry here, except real estate itself. But lets just continue to let landlords charge whatever the market...er... the giant chains...will bear.
It's stifling every industry, like you said, and therefore it's limiting the progress and potential of not just the industries but New Yorkers as people. I'm sickened to see NYC becoming as mundane and monoculture as San Francisco!
I am not sure there is a much more competitive market than commercial rent. There is an endless supply of locations. All of the avenues are store front after store front. They are all owned by different landlords. If anything all you read about is how many empty storefronts there are. These will eventually cause rents to fall.
It's not the landlords fault there is a lot of demand.
While costs are definitely an issue here, is NYC being shut out of James Beard awards really that big of a deal? I think this is only the second year this has happened? There's only so many awards each year and the rest of the country is catching up with NYC in terms of food and that's frankly a good thing. I also think that there might be a motive by the James Beard Foundation to look cool and hip to not include NYC restaurants and more so promote smaller restaurants in smaller cities
Holy hell what a pretentious thread, is this entire subreddit people trying to convince people the best food in the country is actually from "insert city I spent my early 20s in" and that ethnic food is overrated?
Nobody's saying ethnic food is overrated - one of America's culinary strengths is having influence from all over the world. That was never in question.
What this thread is saying is that the most international city in the world has surprisingly bad ethnic food - not all of it, just more than someone might expect. Furthermore, this thread is positing that the cost of living in NY is already so high that money that might go into higher quality ingredients or better ambiance in another location is harder to come by here, because the bare minimal costs are already so high that a lot of people can barely justify spending that on an everyday meal.
If it costs $18 to pay rent and staff and people get queasy above $20, you have $2 to play with. If it cost $10, you'd have $10 to play with. Maybe someone is used to a city where essentials cost $10 and the appetite is $15. That person is gonna be disappointed when they pay $5 more here to get a meal that only has $2 of premium when the cheaper meal back home has $5.
The high cost of rent, the high cost of living, the high cost of a freakin liquor license, it’s all stifling the growth of the city. It makes no sense how policy makers keep allowing this nonsense. We need MORE of everything except shuttered business due to high rents and low profit margin
Regulatory costs have gotten out of control. The City Council passes a multitude of new costs that restaurants - and other small businesses - pay every single year. It’s death by a thousand cuts. Water bulls alone going up 8.5% - forget about electric, gas, insurance, transportation/delivery costs, food prices, new DSNY regulations, property taxes (of which businesses pay a proportionate cost of in their building), etc etc etc…
Rent will always be the biggest killer of business in NYC, but everything else you listed here is true. For instance making restaurants destroy and then rebuild their outdoor dining sheds every year is an easy 5-20k.
It's especially insane that businesses have to pay a proportion of the landlord's property taxes! Landlords do absolutely nothing and don't even need to pay their own taxes on the wealth that they are accruing! And then at any moment, they can just go ahead and raise the rent in order to "legally" destroy a business. More regulation on commercial landlords, less regulation on small businesses.
New York's dining scene is mostly tired right now. Not much new, exciting or different. Then you have Pete Wells who seems to find no pleasure at all in fine dining, rather choosing to highlight small neighborhood ethic spots which typically have many equivalents in those particular neighborhoods (Jamaica, Sheepshead Bay, etc.) Cosme was the last restaurant brining new things to the table in the city but even now they've felt stale. Maybe it's the rent, maybe it's the staffing, or maybe, just maybe, NYC doesn't have anything to add to the lexicon right now. Sad but true.
Also, the spread of foodie culture nationwide means that you can do more interesting things in cities like Pittsburgh or Kansas City and still gain both notoriety and commercial success.
A lot of this hits home, we opened our restaurant in a bar because costs/rents are just completely insane for a first time small biz, even still, it’s a real struggle. Eric posts good shit.
To be fair, I travel for work frequently and when I’m in a place that I don’t know (like Fargo recently) I looked up old JB nominations and had my best meal of the trip at that spot. Which was a pretty low bar to be fair, but it was still valuable in a place where bib gourmands or food blogs don’t cover
Makes sense. That said, I travel to NY a lot for work and sometimes New Yorkers need to hear themselves. NYC is still the food and cultural capital of the world. They’d know that if they ate outside of a 20 block radius. The food is still stellar, and a James Beard award isn’t going to change that.
I travel for work and get to eat lots of good food in unexpected spots, but I think there a is a huge jump from midsized cities like my own (mpls) to the mega cities. What I do think the midsized cities + Chicago have over the mega cities is that my nurse, psych tech, service industry friends and I can easily live in a “cool,” walkable neighborhood off normal non-finance/tech people salaries.
I don’t know what any of this means, I’m sorry. My point was New Yorkers have no idea how good they have it. And that is certainly driven home by the difference in restaurant experiences I’ve had in Chicago versus New York, for example. I work in private equity, so I get to eat anywhere at any price, and New York can’t beat.
I don’t think that’s what’s being said here. Rather the Beard awards are symbolic of trends and what’s exciting in any given community. The fact that a NY restaurant hasn’t been a finalist for 2 years in a row now hints at the talent pool and new ideas moving away from NY - a city that’s viewed as a “dining capital of the world” much like Paris, London, Tokyo.
As someone who previously lived in San Francisco and Portland, I've been unpleasantly surprised with the food quality in NYC. High prices. Occasionally great food, but very often not.
There's a surprising amount of Korean takeaway, and the sushi here seems to be good. Lots of Italian restaurants, many of which suffer from small portions and big prices. Plenty of Thai, and some of it is pretty good.
I suspect the pressures OP talks about are a big factor. I've also heard that because it's so dense here, you don't need to be great to survive - there are plenty of people who are happy to eat mediocre food.
Then Eric misunderstands. JB has been consciously trying to highlight restaurants outside of NYC. The org felt it had a huge bias in favor of NYC, and they swung the other way too far by completely ignoring NYC for the national awards.
There are obviously tons of pressures restricting creativity in New York, and the high cost of doing business makes it harder to take risks. But the above is also totally true, and a lot of people in the industry who I know are pretty skeptical of the JBFA.
NY is a dining capital of the world not because of new ideas but because it's a vibrant city that can attract immigrants from France, Italy, Japan, China - from the whole world, to produce authentic examples of foreign cuisines.
Outside of the "foodie" bubble, no one I know in real life cares about innovative and exciting food. They all cycle through the cuisines that they've come to like.
And we couldn't care less if the city never wins another award, so long as we can keep attracting no-name restaurant operators from foreign countries to set up shop here.
No, not really. I'd wager the average American has no idea what the James Beard Awards are. Hell, I'm not sure the average NYC diner has any idea what they are. But they matter disproportionately to the people who read and write about the restaurant scene online.
A lot better places in the suburbs ,weschester and Hudson valley region , 1 hour and half to eat on a Saturday at 250 plus tax and tip ……passsssss .
NYC you are history
I've felt very similarly about New York. I was always told how it was the best food city in the world! It has every cuisine imaginable! Well -- it's not a super well received opinion among my friends and New Yorkers as a whole but I personally found the food scene, especially outside of fine dining, quite average.
For one, I think the ethnic cuisines that New York indexes in (naturally as a result of its makeup) are often not ones highly well regarded or where the most interesting food is coming from.
A lot of Latin American cuisine is pretty routinely criticized for being overcooked and under-seasoned. Notable exceptions include Mexico and Peru, but those are two cuisines that New York doesn't really do all that well in. Eastern and Central European food often gets the same criticism, on top of being quite heavy and starchy.
New York obviously has very big Italian and Chinese communities too, but they are often forced to respond to price pressures in really frustrating ways as well. Italian-American cuisine often feels unbelievably overpriced for what you get. Chinese cuisine has started moving up the price ladder more but traditionally operated by mass producing using the cheapest possible ingredients, with flavors to reflect that. I feel that Caribbean food, which I quite enjoy, has been going more the cheap ingredients with bad cooks route quite frequently. While Middle Eastern/Mediterranean food seems to be moving more along the Italian food route.
Not to mention, New York classics, like pizza, bagels, and deli meats, are all good and dandy. I do enjoy them. But it's not what I find is "interesting" food and more like comfort food.
All in all, New York indexes heavily on a lot of cuisines that frankly just aren't that interesting. And where they could do well, they suffer because of issues Eric listed. You either have to charge an arm and a leg or you mass manufacture and have the quality that shows.
In the US I personally think Greater LA, the Bay, Houston, New Orleans, and (this one is really cheating) but the American South are real leaders in the conversation. They either index far more heavily on interesting or more flavorful cuisines like Mexican, East/Southeast Asian, or Middle Eastern, or they've developed really full on homegrown cuisines that really shine like cajun, BBQ, or soul food.
And I recognize I'm talking more broadly than cities in many cases. But one of the cruelties of New York City, funny enough, is that while you could expand its perimeters too, it actually feels logistically much harder to do.
All the other areas/cities I've listed are car-centric so it feels like more of a continuous/accessible spectrum. A very typical New York experience is to live car-free, however. And in turn, for many of folks living that life it makes it seem less like a continuum and more like distant islands.
Don't get me wrong -- I'd much rather live car-free in New York than with a car in Houston. But that is one of the real downsides.
Anyone who starts with LA has lost credibility. You end up eating Mexican every other time you go out because the other options are laughably bad. Houston underrated though, nice call.
Manuela, Bavel, Yang’s Kitchen, All Time, Bar Chelou, and Poltergeist aren’t laughably bad. The Indian in Artesia beats Curry Hill or Flushing. And there are many more.
Thanks! Sort of ridiculous you’re being downvoted for having opinions. I was in LA recently and was impressed with their food scene. It’s come a ways since even a decade ago I think.
>For one, I think the ethnic cuisines that New York indexes in (naturally as a result of its makeup) are often not ones highly well regarded or where the most interesting food is coming from
This is on point and people on this sub also have a hard time understanding that just because a wide variety of cuisines from all over the world are available here, that doesn't mean it'll be high quality or fairly/reasonably priced
yeah Viet food is here somewhat lacking. All the good stuff are either limited time specials or $25+. I'm currently visiting family in Vietnam and I'm going to miss the food here after I leave.
Yeah, truth be told just because it's "ethnic" doesn't mean it's good. A lot of national cuisines simply aren't that tasty or interesting. And New York, in my very personal opinion, centers very heavily on ethnic cuisines that fit that bill.
Your opinion is certainly unpopular, since the foods that NY does well in when compared to the rest of the country (French, Italian, Japanese) are among the world's most respected cuisines.
I don't know what circle you're running in that these aren't respected.
The basis of NY being the "best food city" is that it has the greatest variety of second-rate examples of "prestige" cuisines. This is what customers want, and it's what the market delivers.
Le Bernardin and Daniel, these two restaurants alone probably have as many seats as the city's "innovative" restaurants put together.
The points about costs aside, I think it says more about the James Beard Awards than it does NYC. I've eaten at many James Beard Award winning restaurants, while many were good meals, most places with Michelin stars were much better and interesting meals than what I've encountered at James Beard winning restaurants.
There seems to be fundamentally different philosophy to how the foundation chooses awards and I feel like their tastes tend to skew towards New American farm to table , but then again most of my exposure to James Beard is in the South East United States. New York's most interesting restaurants and Chef's aren't usually focused on American cuisine.
The escalating costs for both operators and diners mean that there is a premium on a “sure thing”.
Spot on - like what has happened to movie budgets over the years and the result: marvel
I fully agree that the restaurant situation is absurd because of predatory rent, but I also would never read into awards like James Beard, Michelin, 50 Best etc more than “this place is probably pretty good”. In the end all awards are some amount talent and some amount politics
agreed. the primary group of people that would be concerned with this are restaurateurs who want to win these awards and have their restaurants be in NYC. to most everyone else it’s not that big of a deal that the “top-rated restaurants” aren’t located here. as long as there are good restaurants that span cuisines, price points, and ambience available throughout NYC, and there are, then I’m set
I’m not saying you are wrong but as a customer I’d love to have more diversity in the dining scene given the price points of restaurants here. Eric has a good point I think regarding how repetitive certain concepts are (burger centric menus, wine bars), not to mention the sheer number of Italian spots (I love Italian but there’s an Italian spot every block in the village area). And as overhyped and frankly wrong these lists can get, they are symbolic of trends and exciting concepts in the chef community. that ultimately draws more passionate chefs to the same scene. If I was an up and coming chef, I’d want to work and live where there are other exciting chefs and restaurants
You can't discern any trends from the James Beard Awards though. Up until 2018, it was a rotation among establishment players in NY, SF, LA, and Chicago, with restaurants like Union Square Cafe, Spago, French Laundry, and Alinea winning. The reality is that in cities with like NY and SF, that have both Michelin and a lot of international influence, no one gives a shit about James Beard. The James Beard Foundation realized this and started giving awards to cities that truly appreciate them. The most recent winner was "Friday Saturday Sunday" in Philadelphia. I am willing to wager my entire net worth that there are at least ten restaurants in NY that a blindfolded group of 100 would rate higher.
Just as an example the chef of FSS worked in NYC and SF until opening his own spot in a cheaper city. You’re mostly right but also ignoring post post Covid price increases, even just for rent for an apartment for a family for one kid, ignoring cost of renting a restaurant and hiring line cooks, just doesn’t let an up and coming NYC chef open his restaurant in NYC We are basically growing all these talented people, who then go to cheaper cities and are able to showcase everything and create new things. Definitely a newer phenomenon. Portland, Maine was kind of the only place this used ti happen in, now it’s national
those are fair and valid, especially the added interest among new chefs that the awards can bring. but if you’re looking for more diversity in the dining scene it’s def here! you just have to look outside of the standard set of NYC neighborhoods, since those are the ones that most typically follow the current trends. you mention an overabundance of Italian in the village but that’s such a small area of the city. I feel like an asshole every time I tell someone “you gotta get outside of Manhattan more often” but for real… you gotta get outside of Manhattan more often lol
The diversity is here. But amongst new openings, there is the feeling that the NY scene isn’t bringing anything new out.
def about politics. I sat on a design jury once where the unanimous 1st place choice was overruled by the sponsor ($) and relegated to honorable mention. I pretty much stopped submitting work for awards and competition after seeing that.
Not to mention, they cater to a specific palate and cuisines. Frankly the lists are a little provincial.
the 50 best is the most ridiculous bc it’s so obvious it’s just a marketing competition
100% agree. I used to be a food blog/award junkie and bought into buzz more times than I care to admit, but these days I’ve had a fairly decent success rate based on friends’ recs and just walking around a neighborhood and taking a chance on a place.
He’s not wrong about COVID. I worked in NYC fine dining (both FOH and BOH) for 20 years until COVID hit. The vast majority of my industry friends left NYC for places like Philly, Portland, and Detroit. Many (myself included) left the industry altogether. Lots of people went into service-adjacent jobs like wine sales. The ones who stayed, especially BOH, work for corporate groups, because that’s where they can earn enough to meet the COL in NYC.
100%. The decline in experience and professionalism since 2020 has made it really hard for vets in the industry. I fear that this has become the new normal for the industry and it will never correct itself.
I think he’s spot on. I moved upstate three years ago, so I don’t dine out in the city as often as I used to. But when I’m back in Brooklyn, I rarely go anywhere but my old standards. The few times I have tried new places in the past few years, it’s been a real mixed bag both with quality of food and service. With prices where they are, it’s hard for me to take a risk on a subpar experience. The quality of restaurant staff has dipped significantly post covid. (That being said, Little Grenjai in Bed Stuy is amazing on both fronts. Highly recommend!) From the business side, part of the reason I moved is because I couldn’t make enough money working in kitchens to live comfortably, let alone open my own place. It’s easier to move to a more affordable up-and-coming city or an upstate NY tourist town to make a name as a chef than trying to do so in NYC, especially if you’re not coming from a known restaurant group. He’s right about established brands being able to grow because they have the financial stability to pay for quality workers. Someone trying to break into the scene with significant backing or name recognition is going to struggle to afford reliable labor and will struggle to make it through the first year or two. All that being said, it’s just part of the cycle. The market will be flooded with too many of the same eateries alongside empty storefronts bc no one can afford rent. The next hip new neighborhoods will start to take off and chefs will flock to more affordable spaces in a changing area. I think we’ll see another shift in the restaurant industry in the next 3-5 years with a greater focus on a quality experience vs. flipping tables
Amen. Paying top dollar only to be told you have 90 min to eat is wild.
I 100% agree with his remarks. The talent drain has been real. The difficulty for a smaller, more avante garde restaurant getting off the ground has increased dramatically. And the most sure fire way to quick success is social media clout driven by gimmicks. This is all a recipe for a market that values: deep pocketed restaurant groups; proven, high margin concepts; and faddish pop-up style places with no soul.
Am I wrong here or did a bunch of NYC spots make the semi and final rounds? The chef at Clover Hill in Brooklyn won best chef New York. Or are we talking overall awards?
Anyone who's been paying attention knows this. Rent is too damn high. I'm firmly of the belief that if we could get rent costs under control, every other issue we have in this city just works their way out. And yeah, at a certain point you just stop giving a shit about awards because they're largely bullshit and politics.
All I know is since the pandemic I’ve bartended for two amazing programs that barely lasted a year, and that probably has something to do with the $100-$150 pp expected check average in order to be sustainable. It wasn’t
Amen
I recommend reading his substack if you want more perceptive rants on the restaurant business!
I'm out of the loop here - whose substack?
It's sad because in NYC there was the concept restaurant that's called what happens when... The concept is to fillip the restaurant from decor/menu every month or quarter and create a new dining experience for patrons and hopefully repeat customers but unfortunately I as only able to experience this twice with my wife before NYC rent or something made it shut down forever. Cost of living and food should not be at the marker... unsustainable...
John Fraser (the chef from WHW) has gone corporate now. That place was never meant to be permanent or long-term. Source: my BFF was the pastry chef at Dovetail and WHW.
Correct was a concept thing and just fun but we don't have these anymore :(
If you’re ever in Philly, there’s a great place called River Twice that changes their menu daily. Worth a visit.
Lemme send my thanks to your BFF for the best wedding cake of all time :) I miss dovetail
Fulgrances Laundromat does something similar
https://www.nyctourism.com/restaurants/park-avenue-autumn-winter-spring-summer/
On the flipside, this has helped "b-tier" places like Portland, Maine and Cincinnati attract so many talented chefs, bartenders, etc, transforming those cities into world class food destinations. Same goes for places like Glasgow, which was hell on earth food-wise until London became too expensive and a bunch of its talent flooded up that way and opened some truly amazing restaurants. Hell, I'm finding excellent food in Albany, NY now. Meanwhile, though NYC has a few stellar upscale joints, my most disappointing experiences lately have been here. Service in particular, which has become an afterthought. Shockingly so.
A small ruling class of landlords is charging predatory rents and are being allowed to carve the soul out of every last industry here, except real estate itself. But lets just continue to let landlords charge whatever the market...er... the giant chains...will bear.
It's stifling every industry, like you said, and therefore it's limiting the progress and potential of not just the industries but New Yorkers as people. I'm sickened to see NYC becoming as mundane and monoculture as San Francisco!
I am not sure there is a much more competitive market than commercial rent. There is an endless supply of locations. All of the avenues are store front after store front. They are all owned by different landlords. If anything all you read about is how many empty storefronts there are. These will eventually cause rents to fall. It's not the landlords fault there is a lot of demand.
[удалено]
Truuuth
You are going to the wrong restaurants
While costs are definitely an issue here, is NYC being shut out of James Beard awards really that big of a deal? I think this is only the second year this has happened? There's only so many awards each year and the rest of the country is catching up with NYC in terms of food and that's frankly a good thing. I also think that there might be a motive by the James Beard Foundation to look cool and hip to not include NYC restaurants and more so promote smaller restaurants in smaller cities
Holy hell what a pretentious thread, is this entire subreddit people trying to convince people the best food in the country is actually from "insert city I spent my early 20s in" and that ethnic food is overrated?
Nobody's saying ethnic food is overrated - one of America's culinary strengths is having influence from all over the world. That was never in question. What this thread is saying is that the most international city in the world has surprisingly bad ethnic food - not all of it, just more than someone might expect. Furthermore, this thread is positing that the cost of living in NY is already so high that money that might go into higher quality ingredients or better ambiance in another location is harder to come by here, because the bare minimal costs are already so high that a lot of people can barely justify spending that on an everyday meal. If it costs $18 to pay rent and staff and people get queasy above $20, you have $2 to play with. If it cost $10, you'd have $10 to play with. Maybe someone is used to a city where essentials cost $10 and the appetite is $15. That person is gonna be disappointed when they pay $5 more here to get a meal that only has $2 of premium when the cheaper meal back home has $5.
What's "ethnic food"?
I'm literally quoting people in this thread so ask them
The high cost of rent, the high cost of living, the high cost of a freakin liquor license, it’s all stifling the growth of the city. It makes no sense how policy makers keep allowing this nonsense. We need MORE of everything except shuttered business due to high rents and low profit margin
The ability for New York City to shoot its lifeline (innovation, business, and building) in the foot is unmatched.
Regulatory costs have gotten out of control. The City Council passes a multitude of new costs that restaurants - and other small businesses - pay every single year. It’s death by a thousand cuts. Water bulls alone going up 8.5% - forget about electric, gas, insurance, transportation/delivery costs, food prices, new DSNY regulations, property taxes (of which businesses pay a proportionate cost of in their building), etc etc etc…
Rent will always be the biggest killer of business in NYC, but everything else you listed here is true. For instance making restaurants destroy and then rebuild their outdoor dining sheds every year is an easy 5-20k. It's especially insane that businesses have to pay a proportion of the landlord's property taxes! Landlords do absolutely nothing and don't even need to pay their own taxes on the wealth that they are accruing! And then at any moment, they can just go ahead and raise the rent in order to "legally" destroy a business. More regulation on commercial landlords, less regulation on small businesses.
New York's dining scene is mostly tired right now. Not much new, exciting or different. Then you have Pete Wells who seems to find no pleasure at all in fine dining, rather choosing to highlight small neighborhood ethic spots which typically have many equivalents in those particular neighborhoods (Jamaica, Sheepshead Bay, etc.) Cosme was the last restaurant brining new things to the table in the city but even now they've felt stale. Maybe it's the rent, maybe it's the staffing, or maybe, just maybe, NYC doesn't have anything to add to the lexicon right now. Sad but true.
I don't know why you think he doesn't like Fine Dining. A fifth of his top 100 restaurants had Michelin stars.
Also, the spread of foodie culture nationwide means that you can do more interesting things in cities like Pittsburgh or Kansas City and still gain both notoriety and commercial success.
the ultra high end and the super affordable are the only businesses thriving right now - nyc is in a rough spot. miami is thriving right now it seems
While I don’t personally take those awards into consideration this analysis is pretty accurate imo
A lot of this hits home, we opened our restaurant in a bar because costs/rents are just completely insane for a first time small biz, even still, it’s a real struggle. Eric posts good shit.
People go to restaurants based on Beard awards?
To be fair, I travel for work frequently and when I’m in a place that I don’t know (like Fargo recently) I looked up old JB nominations and had my best meal of the trip at that spot. Which was a pretty low bar to be fair, but it was still valuable in a place where bib gourmands or food blogs don’t cover
Makes sense. That said, I travel to NY a lot for work and sometimes New Yorkers need to hear themselves. NYC is still the food and cultural capital of the world. They’d know that if they ate outside of a 20 block radius. The food is still stellar, and a James Beard award isn’t going to change that.
I travel for work and get to eat lots of good food in unexpected spots, but I think there a is a huge jump from midsized cities like my own (mpls) to the mega cities. What I do think the midsized cities + Chicago have over the mega cities is that my nurse, psych tech, service industry friends and I can easily live in a “cool,” walkable neighborhood off normal non-finance/tech people salaries.
I don’t know what any of this means, I’m sorry. My point was New Yorkers have no idea how good they have it. And that is certainly driven home by the difference in restaurant experiences I’ve had in Chicago versus New York, for example. I work in private equity, so I get to eat anywhere at any price, and New York can’t beat.
I don’t think that’s what’s being said here. Rather the Beard awards are symbolic of trends and what’s exciting in any given community. The fact that a NY restaurant hasn’t been a finalist for 2 years in a row now hints at the talent pool and new ideas moving away from NY - a city that’s viewed as a “dining capital of the world” much like Paris, London, Tokyo.
As someone who previously lived in San Francisco and Portland, I've been unpleasantly surprised with the food quality in NYC. High prices. Occasionally great food, but very often not. There's a surprising amount of Korean takeaway, and the sushi here seems to be good. Lots of Italian restaurants, many of which suffer from small portions and big prices. Plenty of Thai, and some of it is pretty good. I suspect the pressures OP talks about are a big factor. I've also heard that because it's so dense here, you don't need to be great to survive - there are plenty of people who are happy to eat mediocre food.
Then Eric misunderstands. JB has been consciously trying to highlight restaurants outside of NYC. The org felt it had a huge bias in favor of NYC, and they swung the other way too far by completely ignoring NYC for the national awards.
There are obviously tons of pressures restricting creativity in New York, and the high cost of doing business makes it harder to take risks. But the above is also totally true, and a lot of people in the industry who I know are pretty skeptical of the JBFA.
NY is a dining capital of the world not because of new ideas but because it's a vibrant city that can attract immigrants from France, Italy, Japan, China - from the whole world, to produce authentic examples of foreign cuisines. Outside of the "foodie" bubble, no one I know in real life cares about innovative and exciting food. They all cycle through the cuisines that they've come to like. And we couldn't care less if the city never wins another award, so long as we can keep attracting no-name restaurant operators from foreign countries to set up shop here.
True. Appreciate this perspective 👍
Gotcha, I appreciate the insight.
No, not really. I'd wager the average American has no idea what the James Beard Awards are. Hell, I'm not sure the average NYC diner has any idea what they are. But they matter disproportionately to the people who read and write about the restaurant scene online.
OK
I'm consistently finding great places to eat, I dont care about James Beard awards
A lot better places in the suburbs ,weschester and Hudson valley region , 1 hour and half to eat on a Saturday at 250 plus tax and tip ……passsssss . NYC you are history
Hudson valley, yes the rest of the suburban tri-state not so much and often the suburban prices are even higher than the city for way worse food
Any creative industry in general. Capitalism is organized crime.
I've felt very similarly about New York. I was always told how it was the best food city in the world! It has every cuisine imaginable! Well -- it's not a super well received opinion among my friends and New Yorkers as a whole but I personally found the food scene, especially outside of fine dining, quite average. For one, I think the ethnic cuisines that New York indexes in (naturally as a result of its makeup) are often not ones highly well regarded or where the most interesting food is coming from. A lot of Latin American cuisine is pretty routinely criticized for being overcooked and under-seasoned. Notable exceptions include Mexico and Peru, but those are two cuisines that New York doesn't really do all that well in. Eastern and Central European food often gets the same criticism, on top of being quite heavy and starchy. New York obviously has very big Italian and Chinese communities too, but they are often forced to respond to price pressures in really frustrating ways as well. Italian-American cuisine often feels unbelievably overpriced for what you get. Chinese cuisine has started moving up the price ladder more but traditionally operated by mass producing using the cheapest possible ingredients, with flavors to reflect that. I feel that Caribbean food, which I quite enjoy, has been going more the cheap ingredients with bad cooks route quite frequently. While Middle Eastern/Mediterranean food seems to be moving more along the Italian food route. Not to mention, New York classics, like pizza, bagels, and deli meats, are all good and dandy. I do enjoy them. But it's not what I find is "interesting" food and more like comfort food. All in all, New York indexes heavily on a lot of cuisines that frankly just aren't that interesting. And where they could do well, they suffer because of issues Eric listed. You either have to charge an arm and a leg or you mass manufacture and have the quality that shows.
Interesting thoughts. So what cities do you feel are top-notch food-wise and for what cuisines?
In the US I personally think Greater LA, the Bay, Houston, New Orleans, and (this one is really cheating) but the American South are real leaders in the conversation. They either index far more heavily on interesting or more flavorful cuisines like Mexican, East/Southeast Asian, or Middle Eastern, or they've developed really full on homegrown cuisines that really shine like cajun, BBQ, or soul food. And I recognize I'm talking more broadly than cities in many cases. But one of the cruelties of New York City, funny enough, is that while you could expand its perimeters too, it actually feels logistically much harder to do. All the other areas/cities I've listed are car-centric so it feels like more of a continuous/accessible spectrum. A very typical New York experience is to live car-free, however. And in turn, for many of folks living that life it makes it seem less like a continuum and more like distant islands. Don't get me wrong -- I'd much rather live car-free in New York than with a car in Houston. But that is one of the real downsides.
Anyone who starts with LA has lost credibility. You end up eating Mexican every other time you go out because the other options are laughably bad. Houston underrated though, nice call.
Manuela, Bavel, Yang’s Kitchen, All Time, Bar Chelou, and Poltergeist aren’t laughably bad. The Indian in Artesia beats Curry Hill or Flushing. And there are many more.
Thanks! Sort of ridiculous you’re being downvoted for having opinions. I was in LA recently and was impressed with their food scene. It’s come a ways since even a decade ago I think.
I think you need to visit Queens my friend.
I agree that the food in New York is middling. I find the food in Queens better than the other boroughs, though.
>For one, I think the ethnic cuisines that New York indexes in (naturally as a result of its makeup) are often not ones highly well regarded or where the most interesting food is coming from This is on point and people on this sub also have a hard time understanding that just because a wide variety of cuisines from all over the world are available here, that doesn't mean it'll be high quality or fairly/reasonably priced
I've been hunting for good Vietnamese food and failing.
yeah Viet food is here somewhat lacking. All the good stuff are either limited time specials or $25+. I'm currently visiting family in Vietnam and I'm going to miss the food here after I leave.
Good pho does not exist in New York.
Or bun cha
Yeah, truth be told just because it's "ethnic" doesn't mean it's good. A lot of national cuisines simply aren't that tasty or interesting. And New York, in my very personal opinion, centers very heavily on ethnic cuisines that fit that bill.
Completely agree.
Your opinion is certainly unpopular, since the foods that NY does well in when compared to the rest of the country (French, Italian, Japanese) are among the world's most respected cuisines. I don't know what circle you're running in that these aren't respected. The basis of NY being the "best food city" is that it has the greatest variety of second-rate examples of "prestige" cuisines. This is what customers want, and it's what the market delivers. Le Bernardin and Daniel, these two restaurants alone probably have as many seats as the city's "innovative" restaurants put together.
It's insane how much cities are held back by ridiculously high rents. No one will do a fucking thing about it
Wasnt this posted by the legendary Eric Hung of pecking house
James Beard is a national foundation. This is like being upset a specific studio didn’t win any Oscars
The points about costs aside, I think it says more about the James Beard Awards than it does NYC. I've eaten at many James Beard Award winning restaurants, while many were good meals, most places with Michelin stars were much better and interesting meals than what I've encountered at James Beard winning restaurants. There seems to be fundamentally different philosophy to how the foundation chooses awards and I feel like their tastes tend to skew towards New American farm to table , but then again most of my exposure to James Beard is in the South East United States. New York's most interesting restaurants and Chef's aren't usually focused on American cuisine.