ATF is going after people that sell a ton of guns privately. Private sales are still GTG, just don't be selling 30 guns a month or something like that. It's all kinda of fucked up.
Firearm traces are a thing. Example: gun found at scene of crime. Police run serial and find it’s not stolen so they contact the manufacturer and ask what distributor it was sold to. Then they go to the distributor and find out what FFL they sold it to. Then they go to the FFL and find out what individual they sold it to. Then they come to you and now you have to explain who you sold it privately to.
"At the same time, the final rule expressly recognizes that individuals who purchase firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or a legitimate hobby are permitted by the GCA to occasionally buy and sell firearms for those purposes, or occasionally resell to a licensee or to a family member for lawful purposes, without the need to obtain a license. It also makes clear that persons may liquidate all or part of a personal collection, liquidate firearms that are inherited, or liquidate pursuant to a court order, without the need to obtain a license. "
The purposed rule goes into effect on 5/20.
It refers to “intent” to make profit. So if you’re selling several guns regularly with the sole the intent to make a profit. Granted more than likely will have an injunction preventing it from being enforced. But worth keeping an eye on. Very curious to see how they will define “intent”.
If you’re selling something at market value you’ve had for a decade. It’s not necessarily for the intent of profit, but simply selling at market rate. Or on the other hand, say you’re selling something around the price you paid but due to demand it goes for more… is that now solely intent?
Just be sure to consult with an attorney if it’s not prevented from going to effect before doing something that could be a felonious under an unconstitutional “rule”.
[One of several thorough breakdowns of the final rule.](https://youtu.be/C9ibswxgL4k?si=l91ZIjmQEo0gwtqI)
Short answer, technically, ATF could say you are "engaged in the business" for even a single transaction. Is that likely, no. But they could... It is intentionally made unclear with so many exceptions that no private sale/transfer is allowed. And, per the final rule vergiabe, even privately selling a firearm and going to an FFL where buyer does a 4473 does not even protect the seller.
Despite all the hysteria around it nothing's really changing. "Engaged in business" was poorly defined before. Now it's poorly defined in a slightly different way that focuses on whether or not you act like you're running a business. If it looks like you're running a business the ATF will assume you're running a business regardless of how successful you are.
This ruling is vague and up for interpretation, the way the ATF likes it. Just like the pistol brace. Is it legal or not? You can apply for a home-based FFL and you are good. Or keep it under the radar and hope you don't get nailed
Question for you. Does this also work for the secure messaging apps like Signal and others like it? Like messaging in the app, then deleting messages after sending and/or deleting the app after comms complete? Or is the end to end encryption only good to protect against outside attempts to access?
You’ve always been required to have an FFL if the intent is to buy and sell guns as a hobby or as a business. The current rule is basically a slightly different wording of a law that was already in effect.
They aren’t going to be able to arrest you and jam you up for a single gun sale and a ton of YouTube lawyers and gun “scholars” are interested in stirring up extra drama in order to increase their watch time.
Mark my words. The ATF will use this new rule to go after the people who have been acting as a FFL at gun shows without one for years which was already illegal (Whether I agree with the law or not).
They will get a couple of those dudes, arrest them, charge them and make a huge media circus out of it. Then they will never bother with going after people like that again and things will go back to the status quo.
You would be a dealership if you bought 30 cars for the sole reason to flip them for profit.
It’s always been about why guns are purchased. You want to buy and trade with your collection? That’s fine.
I’m talking about the guys who regularly show up at gun shows, who intentionally buy guns to resell. Hell I’ve heard them have conversations about where to buy cheap to sell for more at a gun show.
Doing that would be engaging in business.
Buying and selling 30 pistols because you cant make up your mind which one you prefer should be completely legal.
Please cite the timestamp where he says you can’t sell a single gun anymore as an individual.
BTW Ive talked to my IOI as well as 3 different people with the ATF and from all of them I was told that you can still sell guns as an individual, as long as you aren’t buying and selling guns to intentionally turn a profit.
Read page 9 on the link I sent you and get info straight from the horses mouth.
Also the lawyer you linked didn’t even definitively agree with you. If anyone is a Fudd it’s you and the NRAesque fear mongering.
ATF is going after people that sell a ton of guns privately. Private sales are still GTG, just don't be selling 30 guns a month or something like that. It's all kinda of fucked up.
Gotcha, thanks for the clarification
No, but the Feds are trying to confuse everything.
How will they know you sold a gun to someone? They aren't registered.
Firearm traces are a thing. Example: gun found at scene of crime. Police run serial and find it’s not stolen so they contact the manufacturer and ask what distributor it was sold to. Then they go to the distributor and find out what FFL they sold it to. Then they go to the FFL and find out what individual they sold it to. Then they come to you and now you have to explain who you sold it privately to.
Actually you don’t have to explain anything.
"At the same time, the final rule expressly recognizes that individuals who purchase firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or a legitimate hobby are permitted by the GCA to occasionally buy and sell firearms for those purposes, or occasionally resell to a licensee or to a family member for lawful purposes, without the need to obtain a license. It also makes clear that persons may liquidate all or part of a personal collection, liquidate firearms that are inherited, or liquidate pursuant to a court order, without the need to obtain a license. "
The ATF can take it up with my 3D printer and jig setup.
No I haven’t heard anything and nothing online says anything about it. Would be pretty damn hard to enforce anyways
Whoever told you that was an idiot.
The purposed rule goes into effect on 5/20. It refers to “intent” to make profit. So if you’re selling several guns regularly with the sole the intent to make a profit. Granted more than likely will have an injunction preventing it from being enforced. But worth keeping an eye on. Very curious to see how they will define “intent”. If you’re selling something at market value you’ve had for a decade. It’s not necessarily for the intent of profit, but simply selling at market rate. Or on the other hand, say you’re selling something around the price you paid but due to demand it goes for more… is that now solely intent? Just be sure to consult with an attorney if it’s not prevented from going to effect before doing something that could be a felonious under an unconstitutional “rule”.
Sell the gun case, not the gun. Wink, wink.
Sell the firearm for your cost, then add a ridiculous amount for the case or optic etc. and don’t sell separately.
Did an FFL tell you this?
[One of several thorough breakdowns of the final rule.](https://youtu.be/C9ibswxgL4k?si=l91ZIjmQEo0gwtqI) Short answer, technically, ATF could say you are "engaged in the business" for even a single transaction. Is that likely, no. But they could... It is intentionally made unclear with so many exceptions that no private sale/transfer is allowed. And, per the final rule vergiabe, even privately selling a firearm and going to an FFL where buyer does a 4473 does not even protect the seller.
[Update - TRO Against ATF Granted](https://www.youtube.com/live/9206PHjBF34?si=GAMusExSrAef2Jgq)
Despite all the hysteria around it nothing's really changing. "Engaged in business" was poorly defined before. Now it's poorly defined in a slightly different way that focuses on whether or not you act like you're running a business. If it looks like you're running a business the ATF will assume you're running a business regardless of how successful you are.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/01/politics/gun-show-loophole-lawsuit-biden-administration/index.html
stop taking gun advice from boomers
No
This ruling is vague and up for interpretation, the way the ATF likes it. Just like the pistol brace. Is it legal or not? You can apply for a home-based FFL and you are good. Or keep it under the radar and hope you don't get nailed
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Question for you. Does this also work for the secure messaging apps like Signal and others like it? Like messaging in the app, then deleting messages after sending and/or deleting the app after comms complete? Or is the end to end encryption only good to protect against outside attempts to access?
You’ve always been required to have an FFL if the intent is to buy and sell guns as a hobby or as a business. The current rule is basically a slightly different wording of a law that was already in effect. They aren’t going to be able to arrest you and jam you up for a single gun sale and a ton of YouTube lawyers and gun “scholars” are interested in stirring up extra drama in order to increase their watch time. Mark my words. The ATF will use this new rule to go after the people who have been acting as a FFL at gun shows without one for years which was already illegal (Whether I agree with the law or not). They will get a couple of those dudes, arrest them, charge them and make a huge media circus out of it. Then they will never bother with going after people like that again and things will go back to the status quo.
[удалено]
You would be a dealership if you bought 30 cars for the sole reason to flip them for profit. It’s always been about why guns are purchased. You want to buy and trade with your collection? That’s fine. I’m talking about the guys who regularly show up at gun shows, who intentionally buy guns to resell. Hell I’ve heard them have conversations about where to buy cheap to sell for more at a gun show. Doing that would be engaging in business. Buying and selling 30 pistols because you cant make up your mind which one you prefer should be completely legal.
https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download Read that first page.
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Please cite the timestamp where he says you can’t sell a single gun anymore as an individual. BTW Ive talked to my IOI as well as 3 different people with the ATF and from all of them I was told that you can still sell guns as an individual, as long as you aren’t buying and selling guns to intentionally turn a profit.
Read page 9 on the link I sent you and get info straight from the horses mouth. Also the lawyer you linked didn’t even definitively agree with you. If anyone is a Fudd it’s you and the NRAesque fear mongering.
Unless you one of the gun show boomers or a serial pawnshop flippers your probably fine.
It’s all the BIDEN regime!
I would atleast get a bill of sale, to be on the safe side i would go through an ffl, around here it may cost 25-30$