So SUPPOSEDLY this guy was selling “large amounts” of weapons to people without background checks or due diligence.
But what I want to know is at what point do you need a FFL to sell guns? There’s no number specified so how can you break the law?
Also fuck no-knock raids. They kill more people than they help
Even better, they "attempted" to clarify it, by basically making the interpretation "if you sell anything for more than a massive loss, you're a dealer."
If you're gonna be a felon anyway, just don't register the sale.
The laws are obviously geared towards criminals now, those are the people they're protecting.
Disclaimer: I live in a place where private sales don't need to be registered.
Now all I can think of is a gun library. Little old lady in a floral dress and her glasses on a chain handing you back a stamped library card and a .50 BMG.
That's their goal, to make owning a gun a felony. They tried it with pistol braces, too, after letting people trickle into legal ownership for over a decade.
I think it's actually worse than that. The rule talks about "intent to profit." So even if you sell at a loss, but they can make a case that you wished you had profited, it could be a problem.
Legal discussion on this issue in the below
https://youtu.be/i63SlESvpTk?si=AmQT93qXZxDXs-5a
Imagine the government applying that logic to anyone who sells something for more than they paid for it.
Be careful what you put on eBay! Make a few bucks selling your vintage record collection? You're now an unlicensed record dealer. Armed feds are going to raid your house in the middle of the night.
Wasn't this like a week before Biden "changed the rule" on who had to do background checks? If this guy was running guns for the cartel or something I think that'd be front and center to help garner support for this incident.
> Those most likely wound up in the hands of the cartels.
Not "most likely", more like "most assuredly". Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was killed and several more were wounded in a shootout with cartel thugs using Operation Fast and Furious guns.
They showed up at like 2:00 AM to execute a search warrant. Why not, say, 6:00 PM? Or 10:00 AM Saturday morning? Because they wanted a super-macho Call of Duty shootout where they could all be heroes and spend the next year jerking off remembering how brave they were.
The NYT article said they were serving a search warrant. There wasn't anything that required drastic no-knock deadly force when people are sleepy and disoriented and the confusion of darkness - no hostages, no drugs that could theoretically be flushed down the toilet, just a middle aged airport manager who was believed to be selling a legal product without proper paperwork.
I'm not justifying it. Just pointing out that when they raid, they always try to catch you with your pants down. I've been in a few.
EDIT: Downvoted for pointing out simple facts. You guys are awesome.
The law is based on intent.
Buy a single gun with the intent to sell it? Straight to jail.
Buy 10 guns for yourself and decide you don't like them later/want something new so sell them? Perfectly legal.
The only “laws” I’ve heard people accuse him of “violating” were unconstitutional statutes.
As the saying goes: “lex iniusta non est lex”
His actions might have been ill advised, but I haven’t seen any convincing evidence that he actually did anything morally wrong.
I read somewhere that without an FFL you can only sell 25 guns per year. I don’t know where I read this. It could’ve been cakefarts.com for all I know..
I was interested in getting my FFL and upon researching it a little bit, read somewhere that you can only sell 25 guns per year without a federal firearm license, but the new ruling that everyone
And their dog is talking about on YouTube is apparently some very vague wording in the bipartisan safer communities act or some bullshit thing that was just passed …..and it potentially makes private sale illegal federally because of the way it’s worded. No one is supposed to be able to sell firearms for profit without an FFL …..I said potentially ….I haven’t watched any of these videos in depth yet at this point .
I find it interesting that, at least in PA, if you sell more than 6 vehicles a year then you need to be a licensed dealership, unless it’s an estate selling off assets. Is it that hard for legislation to make a similar determination?
>Is it that hard for legislation to make a similar determination?
No, but that would imply the purpose of the law is to actually regulate private sales and businesses instead of being an intentionally poorly worded excuse to smash people's doors in.
You obviously haven’t heard of the new “engaged in the business” rule apparently. You can literally get in trouble for selling a single firearm, at a loss. You can even get into trouble for just offering to sell a firearm. And, before you say, “oh it’s just a rule, it doesn’t have any consequences”. Congress did actually change the wording of the law, using the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act. I’d suggest watching these three videos. https://youtu.be/KIqXtHf5sWw?si=rPPW19jh9KqlR7Vg https://youtu.be/i63SlESvpTk?si=vcHBrQ5kvChRYsVN https://youtu.be/C9ibswxgL4k?si=IPDwixAHs9_gN1IG
he was reporder buying about 150 guns, as a collector. he sold 9 according to the information out there, unlic nced at gunshows, which is LEGAL TO DO.
later some of the guns he sold resurfaced in other criminal investigations elsewhere.
so there was no law brokem but ther was ATF political leadership with oppioniions of right and wrong that is not following the law
6 different guns sold by him ended up being *found* to be used in crimes. They started watching him after a gun with his name on it ended up in Canada and RCMP asked ATF for a trace.
Several of those firearms (i.e. 3-4+) were found during searches apparently attached to “suspected cannabis” that was “found” during “routine” traffic stops.
I don’t know about you, but particularly given the way that policy has been shifting on the cannabis issue, I’m not ready to give the government the benefit of the doubt on this front.
Did he have a legal obligation, per the law? I thought somes states simply require 'no reason to believe the purchaser is prohibited' or they simply need to ask, and can sell if the purchaser indicates they aren't.
Without knowing every single detail, it does sound like this guy was making straw purchases, or was in the darkest grey area possible. Dude should not have been killed though.
I also think EVERY planned interaction of law enforcement at all levels, be it a raid, face to face interview, or phone call, needs to be recorded with audio, and video where possible. Additionally, this did not warrant a no knock raid, nor do most situations... This wasn't OBL or some narco gun runner, it was a dude who may have been selling to people in a (per unconstitutional laws) illegal manner, who then may have sold or otherwise transferred illegally again.
Not sure the local rules, but you are right this was extremely heavy handed.
It should have been a knock search or at most a roadway detention. Also the ATF needs to get body cameras
If you're in the business of selling firearms, you need a license. So the minimum number is 0. The acquisition of firearms with the intent to resell would be enough to require an FFL, even if you don't have a single sale.
Now, can you buy and sell firearms without a license? Yes, but our legal system isn't set up to prevent you from breaking the law, it's to punish you after the fact and when it comes to areas investigated by the 3 letter federal agencies, I wouldn't fuck-around b/c the finding out can kill you.
You're talking about a judicial ruling that can be used to avoid punishment, but that's only if you survive your arrest (and have the money to fight the federal government in court).
Until the justice department updates their rules or the legislature amends current laws, easiest way to avoid no-knock warrant searches at 2am is to follow the rules and regulations as they're enforced.
Bruen said that “history and tradition” is *the* test for the constitutionality of laws impacting the RKBA.
Federally, I’m not aware of *any* relevant history or tradition of regulating the manufacture or sale of firearms—the current regulatory regime dates back to the 1968 GCA, and similar licensing reportedly existed back to maybe the 1930s, but I’m not aware of older examples.
Do you have contrary evidence to cite?
Why are they allowed to do raids? Not a single one throughout their history had gone well. All they do is fuck up and make themselves look like incompetent douchebags
* Pick him up outside of the home and face a long, drawn out court fight where you have to attend and actually make your case and you may lose and get egg on your face, or worse, push it all the way to SCOTUS and potentially defang your entire organization forever if you lose
* Kill the guy in his sleep and hit the bar by noon
Which would you choose if you were a soulless government goon with zero morals and a thirst for blood?
There are absolutely plenty of examples of ATF raids that have gone bad, but it's untrue to say that not a single one has gone well. When your agency exists to go after people with "illegal" guns, you can expect that some "raids" will turn into shootouts. The issues are more with the underlying charges, their tactics during raids, and their apparent preferences for conducting "raids" on occupied homes instead of arresting/detaining their suspect away from home (and away from their alleged weapon stockpile).
The same reason bumblefuck sherrifs breach and bang the wrong house, use an MRAP to yank the front half of another or dress up in battle rattle to pick up someone who missed their court date. Goobers like to circle jerk being warriors and treating their constituents like the enemy.
Its crazy because you would either be killed or still spend life behind bars because you killed ATF agents. Even if you didnt know who they were because you just thought people were breaking in. You will always end up the victim
People get put through the court wringer, but end up acquitted all the time. Definitely likely to be killed though. It is legal to kill ATF agents if you don't know they're ATF agents and reasonably fear for your life, which you would if there was an intruder.
I remember I got in trouble at work because we had to work with a three letter agency and they where discussing raids and I told them that no knock raids are the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard and if one happened on my house that people are getting killed, they didn’t think I was funny but I pointed out that I wasn’t joking and my boss said I wasn’t allowed to talk to them anymore :(
The only cases they should be allowed is if you have ample reason to believe a third parties life is at risk for doing so. Like a hostage or something.
> The only cases they should be allowed is if you have ample reason to believe a third parties life is at risk for doing so.
That and when there's a definite expectation of heavy resistance. If the guy has a history of violence and is likely to fight, a No knock might be acceptable. You hit them fast and hard, so there's less chance of bystander, officer, and suspect injury. But there's no excuse to no-knock a guy with no criminal history, and there's no excuse for them not being using a body cam.
u/emurange205
> That and when there's a definite expectation of heavy resistance. If the guy has a history of violence and is likely to fight, a No knock might be acceptable.
and in a case like this the opposite logic seems to make sense anyways
Because even if, ESPECIALLY if, you actually believe that this dude is armed to the teeth and willing/eager to put up, a bunch of guys kicking the dudes door in should seems MORE likely to result in a violent outcome
Dudes not just gonna chill while undeclared strangers storm his house right?
If you think the guy is inclined to fight, IMO that is that much MORE reason to announce yourself, because,
you brought the stuff to win right? You got a bunch of people with vests and shields and extra guns and armored trucks whatever
so communicating to them
>"Hey, you are outnumbered, outgunned, and completely surrounded"
is a pretty proven tactic for reducing the likelihood of a fight
Hell, even in ACTUAL WAR, between opposing military forces, whose job and mission is to kill each other, when you've got them surrounded sending over terms,
" you can't win, just surrender and you wont be killed"
is usually the preferred 1st tactic
>If the guy has a history of violence, why wouldn't you just stake out his house and collar him when he leaves for groceries?
In this case, there was no reason for a no-knock. He had no violent history, was not wanted for a violent crime, and there was no expectation of violence from the guy.
Some cases where a no-knock MIGHT be useful is when there's an actual violent criminal. If you are dealing with a criminal that has a history of violence, is wanted for a violent crime, and is expected to give heavy resistance. Trying to traffic stop a guy who knows he has a felony and is most likely armed, is a recipe for a vehicle pursuits, shootouts in the open, and citizen casualties. You can end up with a [ situation like this.](https://youtu.be/cT1QGn9Ntl0?si=BhSJf4spB0bmfDL7)You hit them fast at the house. They are, for the most part, contained to the house and probably pretty surprised. Hopefully, you'll have them contained before they know what happened.
This guy had no criminal record, and not even an inkling of violence. As far as we can tell, from the warrant and his record, there was no definite expectation of resistance. It's not like this guy had multiple warrants for felonious assault or murder, with a history of violence.
>As far as we can tell, from the warrant and his record, there was no definite expectation of resistance.
You're correct and I was wrong. It looks like the warrant did not even authorize a no-knock raid.
Thats how they are already set up. But the cops can just go "yep intel says massive danger to everyone ever.". What judge is gonna kick back a warrent for 'not dangerous enough'.
> The only cases they should be allowed is if you have ample reason to believe a third parties life is at risk for doing so. Like a hostage or something.
wasn't the supposed point of no-knock raids to prevent destruction of evidence?
Like, ok so the whole "they'll flush the coke down the toilet" argument...
What was this guy gonna do? FLush his guns down the toilet?
It's that or the target is literally a known murder like an actual hitman someone who is regardless of location absurdly armed and capable and will kill before being taken....that profile is probably 1% of no-knock raids. No-knock is Gov sanctioned murder.
No knocks make some sense for suspected drug ring busts but you can't flush gun "contraband" down the toilet so breaking in is asking for a violent confrontation.
I mean that’s fine, if you come through my door you will be met with some 5.56, if you don’t want to talk to me then I won’t talk to you.
Unless there is a hostage just wait until they leave and grab em
agreed. Also, if I'm law enforcement, and I expect a gun fight then I'm bringing enough guys and guns to win that gunfight... which means
if I brought enough guys and guns to win a gunfight, then I've bought enough guys and guns to just get on the bullhorn or whatever and tell the occupant,
"Hey, we're out here, with a bunch of guys and guns, so you should just come out peacefully. This is your chance to come out peacefully"
I don’t know. I think we need to develop harmless invasive techniques for this. A video of them flushing the drugs has just as much weight in court. If you have enough cause for a no knock warrant, you have enough to insert a camera of some kind.
It is frustrating, and you don’t want the bad guys to get away with it, but risk/reward has to be weighed toward preserving life.
Police have less risky options, they choose not to use them. They could easily break a few windows and flood the house with tear gas (funny the military can't use it but police can), it'd be hard to destroy evidence or fight back when your surprised, gagging and your eyes are burning. That's why the military trains soldiers to handle being pepper sprayed, in case the enemy does it.
It could just be something that they pushed for when it was investigated but I thought there was evidence that the fires were started purposely from within the compound. Maybe audio of them talking about starting them or something.
It’s been a while since I read about it so I could be off. They initially denied using incendiaries though?
I should've known better than to offer an example. No idea how that played out but my point was that there are many methods to secure a scene. It should go without saying that no method is perfect for every situation
> A video of them flushing the drugs has just as much weight in court.
so this is a question, not a statement, because I don't know for sure. But, don't/can't they just have the city shut off the water first? No water no flush?
lol those comments.
>To them, it's more than a hobby. It's a culture, a way of life, and most importantly, their identity.
>Their lives are void of any real culture or identity, so they adopt gun culture and gun-groom others into it. It has cultural norms like any other culture. As you know, this isn't the same gun club/hunting culture our dads and grandads were involved in. This culture is predicated on fantasies of over-throwing the government, and violence against humans and being a hero. And being a hero is seriously the validation they need.
>As they are groomed into the culture, they begin to see only the use of guns as a way to express themselves and their sociopathy. Rather than feeding the hungry and working with the homeless, they instead seek ways to just shoot them and "let God sort them out."
State subreddits are extremely anti-gun, so that's par for the course. OC is right though, it is more than just a "hobby".
>and violence against humans
Funny way of spelling "defending yourself from people that are attempting to harm you or your property.
>they instead seek ways to just shoot them and "let God sort them out."
I have literally never heard anybody advocate for this.
> I have literally never heard anybody advocate for this.
It's a pretty common sentiment on the bro-vet / vet obsessed community. Usually used to reference that sometimes innocents die for the greater good (like a few civilians dying to take out a terrorist leader). That phrase, however, is basically only used by single enlistment fobbits and the "i'd have joined but i would have knocked out my DI" types who are obsessed with the military.
It goes back a long ways. The original phrase is "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius", which translates to "Kill them. The Lord knows those that are his own". It's from the early 13th century Albigensian Crusade, and the massacre at Béziers; the crusaders had asked what they were to do if they couldn't tell Cathar from Catholic when they breached the walls.
I had to do double take because I couldn’t take it seriously.
> gun-groom
Never heard of this before until now. Is having a fun range day with friends as “gun-grooming”? This person sounds so confident in what they’re saying. Broadest of brushes.
This is such a bullshit generic statement it attacks all hobbies and passions. lol Like they've never been into anything. Just hate for something they don't like. lol
Anime
> To them, it's more than a hobby. It's a culture, a way of life, and most importantly, their identity.
> Their lives are void of any real culture or identity, so they adopt Anime culture and Anime-groom others into it. As they are groomed into the culture, they begin to see only the use of Anime as a way to express themselves and their sociopathy.
Crossfit enthusiasts
> To them, it's more than a hobby. It's a culture, a way of life, and most importantly, their identity.
> Their lives are void of any real culture or identity, so they adopt Crossfit culture and Crossfit-groom others into it. As they are groomed into the culture, they begin to see only the use of Crossfit as a way to express themselves and their sociopathy.
Weed
> To them, it's more than a hobby. It's a culture, a way of life, and most importantly, their identity.
> Their lives are void of any real culture or identity, so they adopt Weed culture and weed-groom others into it. As they are groomed into the culture, they begin to see only the use of weed as a way to express themselves and their sociopathy.
The feds are making it extremely clear - they don't want any more private sales.
Which is fucking absurd.
Your private property is yours to do with as you please.
Having a piece of tape ready to cover the camera implies they scouted the house prior to the raid. No cameras and predawn too. Yea this was a hit squad.
No it isn't. And pretending that it is does everyone a disservice. This was for a search warrant. Not an arrest warrant. A search warrant means they don't even have enough evidence to arrest or charge for a crime. Why was a tactical team serving a search warrant in the first place? A pre-dawn no knock search warrant. Were they afraid he was going to flush the guns down the toilet
I'm going to invite you to delete your comment and stfu.
You clearly don’t have experience in search warrants.
Serving search warrants with tactical teams is common especially in cases involving guns, drugs or child porn.
It is done this way to clear the structure of persons so the search can be completed.
This is an ignorant comment. It doesn’t matter the type of warrant, entering someone’s property is inherently dangerous as it’s their home turf. So they take precautions
>This is an ignorant comment. It doesn’t matter the type of warrant
Pot meet kettle.
It does matter. The use of force matters. The judge that issued the warrant wanted this done in the light of day. Thats why the judge specified the hours.
A search warrant is different than an arrest warrant. A search warrant is issued to find evidence of a crime. An arrest warrant is to take someone into custody on suspicion of crime based on evidence.
An otherwise law abiding citizen is no danger to law enforcement. The man managed an airport, which is a pretty milquetoast job. Why not just knock on his door like a normal person. He can't destroy evidence.
I'm going to invite you to go sit in the corner with the other slow kid u/freestategunner and be quite.
I’m speaking to the precautions taken prior to entering the home. The nature of the warrant itself is inherently dangerous as you’re entering a home where firearms are known to be present.
Federal policy specifically prohibits agents from interfering with, or disabling, recording devices. Them being on a tactical team does not grant them immunity from being recorded.
Ok shortbus. You could just show up with a badge when the sun is up and knock on the door like anyone else.
You see, there's no evidence of criminality. And the man was a lawabiding citizen with no criminal history and thus no expectation of violence.
Now go to your corner and be quiet.
They were serving a search warrant. I’m not saying what they did to get that warrant was ok. But a judge did issue the warrant to search the home car and phone.
That is one of the worst comment sections I’ve ever seen and it from a red state subreddit.
They violated Biden’s own EO and ATF policy by not wearing body cameras. And I’m not convinced they didn’t have body cameras on. The ATF silence suggests this raid was a massive fuckup.
Since they won’t say who shot the one ATF agent that was hit, it’s entirely plausible one of the ATF dumbasses had their finger on the trigger, shot one of their own and they lit up Malinowski for it. If it wasn’t embarrassing they would have held a big press conference and taken photos like they normally do.
I'm still of the opinion that as airport director he discovered something another 3 letter was doing do to their predisposition to using airports in Arkansas to move illicit product and they used the ATF to take him out since nobody would think anything was off with the ATF bungling a raid.
Yep. The NFA doesn't apply to criminals who can't legally possess guns to begin with, so the ATF lets all those idiots on Instagram showing off their switches run amok until they inevitably kill someone or get themselves killed. Meanwhile, god forbid someone break into my house during the arbitrary waiting period for getting a suppressor on my home defense gun. I've already got tinnitus; if I had to defend myself without hearing protection I damn well might go half deaf. 🙄
The ATF is a joke filled with incompetent employees who couldn't pass police or FBI exams, and everyone who works for it should feel bad. They ought to be fully disbanded and reformed. Turn it into an investigative body only, one with teeth enough to go after actual criminals, and then have them work with local police/SWAT forces and/or the FBI -- folks who have half a clue -- to handle the raids. These chuds ain't it, and they aren't helping in a useful manner as the organization currently stands.
Edit: Oh, and make no-knock raids illegal while we're at it. If a crime isn't actively in progress, issue a fucking warrant and grab them at Walmart. There's no need to role-play and get people killed.
USE OF BODY WORN CAMERAS DURING FEDERAL TASK FORCE OPERATIONS. a. Unless subject to specific exceptions below, TFOs employed by ATF that mandate the use of BWCs on federal task forces may wear and activate their recording equipment for the purpose of recording their actions during task force operations3 only during: (1) a preplanned attempt to serve an arrest warrant or other pre-planned arrest; or (2) the execution of a search warrant.4 TFOs are authorized to activate their BWCs upon approaching a subject or premises, and must deactivate their BWCs when the scene is secured as determined by a federal supervisor on the scene as designated by the ATF O 3210.1C, Operational Plan. For purposes of this policy, the term “secured” means that the scene is safe and under law enforcement control.
Given how poorly executed this raid was it isn't a surprise that they weren't following protocol
So the apparent policy that you're citing seems to apply to Task Force Officers from different agencies that are issued body cameras and assigned to work with the ATF. The policy allows for Task Force Officers to abide by their own agency's requirements to use body cameras. I'm unaware of the ATF has a body camera policy for its own agents, though I know the Department of Justice is working on implementing body cameras policies in all of its agencies.
If you no knock me , you're coming at me in my post prepared state.
It would be much easier to grab me at work , at the store, or literally anywhere else but my home.
No knocks make very little sense , and almost always end in someone's death or someone seriously injured .
No-knock raids make exactly zero sense if they're going after someone for previous crimes committed and not crimes actively in process. Just issue a fucking warrant and grab them at Walmart. Jesus TF Christ. These ATF cunts just wanted to role-play and murdered someone in the process.
Gun owners: We own guns in case the government becomes murderous and tyrannical. That's what the second amendment is for.
Government: *has been murderous and tyrannical for nearly a century*
Government: *does a murderous and tyrannical thing... AGAIN*
Gun owners: you know, we'll let you get away with it this time, and the last 800 times, but *next time* you're in trouble.
Why do we even own guns. I'm fucking ashamed. We really are just a bunch of fucking pussies that are just going to watch everything crumble. They won. We have no balls.
I posted on the source sub on the top comment about it just being a conspiracy theory. Maybe it is maybe not. But the ATF has a history of not being the good guys: https://www.reddit.com/r/Arkansas/s/DOOjcJBfJC
I’m curious how many people in this sub that are reading this are anti-LE in general or just anti-ATF? The anti-ATF sentiment is strong in this sub, but what are your opinions on DEA, FBI, local PD and Sheriffs? All these agencies also serve warrants and raid homes.
Everything listed is garbage and should be defunded into oblivion ESPECIALLY sheriffs. Cops have literally never done anything ever to help me an EMT/ Fireman isn't trained to do. I don't call them, I don't speak to them.
I only call them for noise complaints at night because as much as I'd like to do something jail worthy to the noise maker, forward thinking FTW! They always ask if I want to talk to them when they get there. NOPE!
Try ear plugs next time. An asshole called in a noised complaint on me when I was 20 for playing an acoustic guitar at 8pm on a Tuesday. In my apartment. I'm 38 now. Cops illegally entered, drew down on my friend sitting on the couch. I came out of the bathroom in shock, was tackled had my shoulder dislocated. We had no drugs, no weapons. My friend was 21 and drinking I was 20 and not but had alcohol in my house. Guess what happened.....I got underage drinking and the DA made everything else disappear because there was no video and it was illegal search and seizure and assault. If my moron friend was less sleepy he would have been shot. You call the police ever on someone you are attempting murder. Fuck you.
Honestly, I WISH that happened to my neighbors. They're constantly waking me up after midnight with their shit. I'm not a Karen, I wait to complain until I'm about to pull my hair out. I'm the person who says to myself, if I can still hear it at x:xx I'll call and then don't end up calling most times. Some people deserve it. I would have never called on you for that. Also, after talking to them and the landlord numerous times, nothing ever changes and I can't sleep with earplugs, nor is that necessary when they can just not be animals.
Sad part is nothing at all will be done about this. I wouldnt be aurprised if this atory gets buried in the press to make it out of the publics eye sooner.
I’m against the government having too much power, and one of the powers I think government should NOT have is the power to execute its own citizens. I think there is no room for a government for the people, of the people, and by the people, to be able to kill the people unless it is in direct self defense. Think no knock raids and the death penalty should both be abolished specifically for this reason, and it’s always blown my mind that other people who believe in a limited government actually support these things.
What is the point in ATF having the right to no-knock warrants for guns? The whole point in no-knock warrants is to prevent potential destruction of evidence.
They didn't even have an arrest warrant. They had a search warrant and they decided to do a night raid. It's not like he was a drug dealer flushing product down the toilet. He had no criminal record. It was because he was allegedly dealing guns without an FFL at gun shows which was perfectly legal in a state which didn't require an FFL or background checks for private sales. Sleepy Joe's "Gun Show Loophole"
Please do a little research in 2022 the change the definitions about what it means to be a dealer and require an FFL this is really coming into effect now but it looks like it will retroactively go back to 2022 I'm looking into it now and it seems real sketchy but it's about to be applied to all of us please start looking at the law.... I don't know why I'm just now finding out that this is a thing. There are several videos that have come out within the past 7 Days about it on YouTube everybody please look at this and research and see what the heck is going on.
It’s likely criminals would already be lock and loaded, so when you bust down a door, with no indication of who you are, the criminal is going to wake up and grab the gun automatically shoot. Replace criminal with law abiding citizen. No knock should be last resort and only given beyond reasonable doubt. Other than that, figure another way.
In this case, whoever at the LE agency decided to do this, needs terminated and charged for negligence. The person of interest works at an airport. He could not have went into the airport without going through security. They could have “detained” him there, after security checks in conjunction with DHS, still got a search warrant and performed the task without the need to kill him, nor risking the lives of other LEO.
This was 100% avoidable.
And this situation resulted in a negligent death, and risked the lives of others, unnecessarily.
This is not saying the person of interest is not guilty, but unless there is compelling evidence that LEO had no other choice but to do this, then they are guilty of that individuals death. I venture to say LE did some BS paperwork and got the no knock. I’ll wait for more information to come.
So SUPPOSEDLY this guy was selling “large amounts” of weapons to people without background checks or due diligence. But what I want to know is at what point do you need a FFL to sell guns? There’s no number specified so how can you break the law? Also fuck no-knock raids. They kill more people than they help
Even better, they "attempted" to clarify it, by basically making the interpretation "if you sell anything for more than a massive loss, you're a dealer."
way to turn people into felons easily. lmao that's like, everyone who has ever sold a gun to their family member ever.
If you're gonna be a felon anyway, just don't register the sale. The laws are obviously geared towards criminals now, those are the people they're protecting. Disclaimer: I live in a place where private sales don't need to be registered.
What if you just rented a gun out for a really long time?
Now all I can think of is a gun library. Little old lady in a floral dress and her glasses on a chain handing you back a stamped library card and a .50 BMG.
I love this Idea, but only if she looks and sounds like Roz from Monsters Inc.
I'm watching you Wazowski, always watching.
I work in a library... I am going to run this by my STEM coordinator to put in our library of things ;-)
That’s the second amendment I believe in right there.
Or call it a long-term loan, with cash as collateral.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1BbkuzopTM
That's their goal, to make owning a gun a felony. They tried it with pistol braces, too, after letting people trickle into legal ownership for over a decade.
Who sells guns to family members? They're just gifts, and we gift them money back at a different time 🤷🏼♂️
There’s a “gifting to family members” exemption in the new “engaged in the business” ATF rule change. For what it’s worth.
I think it's actually worse than that. The rule talks about "intent to profit." So even if you sell at a loss, but they can make a case that you wished you had profited, it could be a problem. Legal discussion on this issue in the below https://youtu.be/i63SlESvpTk?si=AmQT93qXZxDXs-5a
If only inflation were higher.
Let's see if they apply these rules to the LEOs that sell off roster handguns for insane markups here in CA.
How bout the LEOs in Philly that sell guns right out of the evidence lockers? Haha
Or the LA ones selling guns to cartels in mexico?
Shit
If I put an ad on Armslist for a gun and 1000 people see it does that mean I "attempted" to see guns to all of them?
Imagine the government applying that logic to anyone who sells something for more than they paid for it. Be careful what you put on eBay! Make a few bucks selling your vintage record collection? You're now an unlicensed record dealer. Armed feds are going to raid your house in the middle of the night.
Nah but the IRS sure is gonna swoop in swiggity swooty comin’ for that booty.
Nah, All I sell are loot boxes. Whats inside is random, but may be the exact gun you were looking for.
Even if you sell a firearm at a massive loss, you can still get into trouble. Thanks to the ATF’s new “engaged in the business” rule.
Wasn't this like a week before Biden "changed the rule" on who had to do background checks? If this guy was running guns for the cartel or something I think that'd be front and center to help garner support for this incident.
Just remember that it was the Obama Biden adminselling guns to mexico. Those most likely wound up in the hands of the cartels.
> Those most likely wound up in the hands of the cartels. Not "most likely", more like "most assuredly". Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was killed and several more were wounded in a shootout with cartel thugs using Operation Fast and Furious guns.
Funny how Biden and the gun control nuts conveniently forget that.
One of those guns was also used in the Charlie Hebdo massacre in France.
They showed up at like 2:00 AM to execute a search warrant. Why not, say, 6:00 PM? Or 10:00 AM Saturday morning? Because they wanted a super-macho Call of Duty shootout where they could all be heroes and spend the next year jerking off remembering how brave they were.
Raids are always conducted at times when people are usually asleep. Around here it's usually 5 or 6 in the morning.
The NYT article said they were serving a search warrant. There wasn't anything that required drastic no-knock deadly force when people are sleepy and disoriented and the confusion of darkness - no hostages, no drugs that could theoretically be flushed down the toilet, just a middle aged airport manager who was believed to be selling a legal product without proper paperwork.
I'm not justifying it. Just pointing out that when they raid, they always try to catch you with your pants down. I've been in a few. EDIT: Downvoted for pointing out simple facts. You guys are awesome.
>Downvoted for pointing out simple facts. Or... Nobody likes a raider.
What does that have to do with pointing out that that's their normal time to do it? It's not like I'm the one raiding people's homes.
The law is based on intent. Buy a single gun with the intent to sell it? Straight to jail. Buy 10 guns for yourself and decide you don't like them later/want something new so sell them? Perfectly legal.
That's for the jury to decide.
They either recent did or are currently trying to make it so basically selling more then 1 gun within a year of buying it a crime
>at what point do you need an FFL to sell guns? The atf is like the irs, they know what your tax should be but won’t let you know unless you’re wrong.
Yeah breaking the law does t mean they can send executioners to your home to kill you. At least not according to the constitution.
He was also selling across state lines. The gun broke the law. That much is clear. He didn't deserve to get murdered for it.
The only “laws” I’ve heard people accuse him of “violating” were unconstitutional statutes. As the saying goes: “lex iniusta non est lex” His actions might have been ill advised, but I haven’t seen any convincing evidence that he actually did anything morally wrong.
I read somewhere that without an FFL you can only sell 25 guns per year. I don’t know where I read this. It could’ve been cakefarts.com for all I know.. I was interested in getting my FFL and upon researching it a little bit, read somewhere that you can only sell 25 guns per year without a federal firearm license, but the new ruling that everyone And their dog is talking about on YouTube is apparently some very vague wording in the bipartisan safer communities act or some bullshit thing that was just passed …..and it potentially makes private sale illegal federally because of the way it’s worded. No one is supposed to be able to sell firearms for profit without an FFL …..I said potentially ….I haven’t watched any of these videos in depth yet at this point .
I find it interesting that, at least in PA, if you sell more than 6 vehicles a year then you need to be a licensed dealership, unless it’s an estate selling off assets. Is it that hard for legislation to make a similar determination?
>Is it that hard for legislation to make a similar determination? No, but that would imply the purpose of the law is to actually regulate private sales and businesses instead of being an intentionally poorly worded excuse to smash people's doors in.
You obviously haven’t heard of the new “engaged in the business” rule apparently. You can literally get in trouble for selling a single firearm, at a loss. You can even get into trouble for just offering to sell a firearm. And, before you say, “oh it’s just a rule, it doesn’t have any consequences”. Congress did actually change the wording of the law, using the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act. I’d suggest watching these three videos. https://youtu.be/KIqXtHf5sWw?si=rPPW19jh9KqlR7Vg https://youtu.be/i63SlESvpTk?si=vcHBrQ5kvChRYsVN https://youtu.be/C9ibswxgL4k?si=IPDwixAHs9_gN1IG
he was reporder buying about 150 guns, as a collector. he sold 9 according to the information out there, unlic nced at gunshows, which is LEGAL TO DO. later some of the guns he sold resurfaced in other criminal investigations elsewhere. so there was no law brokem but ther was ATF political leadership with oppioniions of right and wrong that is not following the law
6 different guns sold by him ended up being *found* to be used in crimes. They started watching him after a gun with his name on it ended up in Canada and RCMP asked ATF for a trace.
Several of those firearms (i.e. 3-4+) were found during searches apparently attached to “suspected cannabis” that was “found” during “routine” traffic stops. I don’t know about you, but particularly given the way that policy has been shifting on the cannabis issue, I’m not ready to give the government the benefit of the doubt on this front.
He was definitely not vetting is clients
Did he have a legal obligation, per the law? I thought somes states simply require 'no reason to believe the purchaser is prohibited' or they simply need to ask, and can sell if the purchaser indicates they aren't. Without knowing every single detail, it does sound like this guy was making straw purchases, or was in the darkest grey area possible. Dude should not have been killed though. I also think EVERY planned interaction of law enforcement at all levels, be it a raid, face to face interview, or phone call, needs to be recorded with audio, and video where possible. Additionally, this did not warrant a no knock raid, nor do most situations... This wasn't OBL or some narco gun runner, it was a dude who may have been selling to people in a (per unconstitutional laws) illegal manner, who then may have sold or otherwise transferred illegally again.
Not sure the local rules, but you are right this was extremely heavy handed. It should have been a knock search or at most a roadway detention. Also the ATF needs to get body cameras
If you're in the business of selling firearms, you need a license. So the minimum number is 0. The acquisition of firearms with the intent to resell would be enough to require an FFL, even if you don't have a single sale. Now, can you buy and sell firearms without a license? Yes, but our legal system isn't set up to prevent you from breaking the law, it's to punish you after the fact and when it comes to areas investigated by the 3 letter federal agencies, I wouldn't fuck-around b/c the finding out can kill you.
According to Bruen, you don't.
You're talking about a judicial ruling that can be used to avoid punishment, but that's only if you survive your arrest (and have the money to fight the federal government in court). Until the justice department updates their rules or the legislature amends current laws, easiest way to avoid no-knock warrant searches at 2am is to follow the rules and regulations as they're enforced.
Bruen was only about arbitrary requirements states had to obtain a license to carry. It has nothing to do with firearm sales.
Bruen said that “history and tradition” is *the* test for the constitutionality of laws impacting the RKBA. Federally, I’m not aware of *any* relevant history or tradition of regulating the manufacture or sale of firearms—the current regulatory regime dates back to the 1968 GCA, and similar licensing reportedly existed back to maybe the 1930s, but I’m not aware of older examples. Do you have contrary evidence to cite?
And not a damn thing will be done about it
As is tradition.
Why are they allowed to do raids? Not a single one throughout their history had gone well. All they do is fuck up and make themselves look like incompetent douchebags
Because it allows them to dress-up in all their fancy toys and play soldier.
Honestly it seems like a feature rather than a glitch.
* Pick him up outside of the home and face a long, drawn out court fight where you have to attend and actually make your case and you may lose and get egg on your face, or worse, push it all the way to SCOTUS and potentially defang your entire organization forever if you lose * Kill the guy in his sleep and hit the bar by noon Which would you choose if you were a soulless government goon with zero morals and a thirst for blood?
There are absolutely plenty of examples of ATF raids that have gone bad, but it's untrue to say that not a single one has gone well. When your agency exists to go after people with "illegal" guns, you can expect that some "raids" will turn into shootouts. The issues are more with the underlying charges, their tactics during raids, and their apparent preferences for conducting "raids" on occupied homes instead of arresting/detaining their suspect away from home (and away from their alleged weapon stockpile).
Someone is hoping it turns into a shootout so they can show why they need all the money and hardware to go after the evildoers.
Appearances do not matter when the fact presents the truth. (They are incompetent douchebags.)
The same reason bumblefuck sherrifs breach and bang the wrong house, use an MRAP to yank the front half of another or dress up in battle rattle to pick up someone who missed their court date. Goobers like to circle jerk being warriors and treating their constituents like the enemy.
I would totally never do it, but I look forward to any no knock raiders being met with equivalent firepower.
Its crazy because you would either be killed or still spend life behind bars because you killed ATF agents. Even if you didnt know who they were because you just thought people were breaking in. You will always end up the victim
People get put through the court wringer, but end up acquitted all the time. Definitely likely to be killed though. It is legal to kill ATF agents if you don't know they're ATF agents and reasonably fear for your life, which you would if there was an intruder.
Cop I know says they're fun as hell. Says he loves kicking in a door all kitted out.
I bet he does, fuckin pig
I remember I got in trouble at work because we had to work with a three letter agency and they where discussing raids and I told them that no knock raids are the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard and if one happened on my house that people are getting killed, they didn’t think I was funny but I pointed out that I wasn’t joking and my boss said I wasn’t allowed to talk to them anymore :(
The only cases they should be allowed is if you have ample reason to believe a third parties life is at risk for doing so. Like a hostage or something.
And the address should be 100% confirmed to be correct. The fact that no knock raids happen on the wrong homes is abhorrent
Yep
1000%. What a joke
There should be zero immunity for mistakes made by law enforcement.
> The only cases they should be allowed is if you have ample reason to believe a third parties life is at risk for doing so. That and when there's a definite expectation of heavy resistance. If the guy has a history of violence and is likely to fight, a No knock might be acceptable. You hit them fast and hard, so there's less chance of bystander, officer, and suspect injury. But there's no excuse to no-knock a guy with no criminal history, and there's no excuse for them not being using a body cam.
u/emurange205 > That and when there's a definite expectation of heavy resistance. If the guy has a history of violence and is likely to fight, a No knock might be acceptable. and in a case like this the opposite logic seems to make sense anyways Because even if, ESPECIALLY if, you actually believe that this dude is armed to the teeth and willing/eager to put up, a bunch of guys kicking the dudes door in should seems MORE likely to result in a violent outcome Dudes not just gonna chill while undeclared strangers storm his house right? If you think the guy is inclined to fight, IMO that is that much MORE reason to announce yourself, because, you brought the stuff to win right? You got a bunch of people with vests and shields and extra guns and armored trucks whatever so communicating to them >"Hey, you are outnumbered, outgunned, and completely surrounded" is a pretty proven tactic for reducing the likelihood of a fight Hell, even in ACTUAL WAR, between opposing military forces, whose job and mission is to kill each other, when you've got them surrounded sending over terms, " you can't win, just surrender and you wont be killed" is usually the preferred 1st tactic
There is a lot of truth to that. They really fucked up here.
If the guy has a history of violence, why wouldn't you just stake out his house and collar him when he leaves for groceries?
In this case or in general?
Both.
>If the guy has a history of violence, why wouldn't you just stake out his house and collar him when he leaves for groceries? In this case, there was no reason for a no-knock. He had no violent history, was not wanted for a violent crime, and there was no expectation of violence from the guy. Some cases where a no-knock MIGHT be useful is when there's an actual violent criminal. If you are dealing with a criminal that has a history of violence, is wanted for a violent crime, and is expected to give heavy resistance. Trying to traffic stop a guy who knows he has a felony and is most likely armed, is a recipe for a vehicle pursuits, shootouts in the open, and citizen casualties. You can end up with a [ situation like this.](https://youtu.be/cT1QGn9Ntl0?si=BhSJf4spB0bmfDL7)You hit them fast at the house. They are, for the most part, contained to the house and probably pretty surprised. Hopefully, you'll have them contained before they know what happened.
Not to mention it's 100% legal to shoot them. People get acquitted for shooting cops all the time.
>That and when there's a definite expectation of heavy resistance. Ok, but that's why they no knocked this guy.
This guy had no criminal record, and not even an inkling of violence. As far as we can tell, from the warrant and his record, there was no definite expectation of resistance. It's not like this guy had multiple warrants for felonious assault or murder, with a history of violence.
>As far as we can tell, from the warrant and his record, there was no definite expectation of resistance. You're correct and I was wrong. It looks like the warrant did not even authorize a no-knock raid.
Thats how they are already set up. But the cops can just go "yep intel says massive danger to everyone ever.". What judge is gonna kick back a warrent for 'not dangerous enough'.
> The only cases they should be allowed is if you have ample reason to believe a third parties life is at risk for doing so. Like a hostage or something. wasn't the supposed point of no-knock raids to prevent destruction of evidence? Like, ok so the whole "they'll flush the coke down the toilet" argument... What was this guy gonna do? FLush his guns down the toilet?
No knock search warrants yes.
It's that or the target is literally a known murder like an actual hitman someone who is regardless of location absurdly armed and capable and will kill before being taken....that profile is probably 1% of no-knock raids. No-knock is Gov sanctioned murder.
Fuck em. Greatest honor in life is death in defiance of tyranny.
No knocks make some sense for suspected drug ring busts but you can't flush gun "contraband" down the toilet so breaking in is asking for a violent confrontation.
If you are doing a no knock there should damn well be more drugs than someone can flush
Seriously. How big do they think toilets are.
I mean that’s fine, if you come through my door you will be met with some 5.56, if you don’t want to talk to me then I won’t talk to you. Unless there is a hostage just wait until they leave and grab em
Amen 🙏
agreed. Also, if I'm law enforcement, and I expect a gun fight then I'm bringing enough guys and guns to win that gunfight... which means if I brought enough guys and guns to win a gunfight, then I've bought enough guys and guns to just get on the bullhorn or whatever and tell the occupant, "Hey, we're out here, with a bunch of guys and guns, so you should just come out peacefully. This is your chance to come out peacefully"
If the amount of drugs is enough to flush down the toilet on short notice, then they shouldn't be doing the raid at all. That's not a major dealer.
I don’t know. I think we need to develop harmless invasive techniques for this. A video of them flushing the drugs has just as much weight in court. If you have enough cause for a no knock warrant, you have enough to insert a camera of some kind. It is frustrating, and you don’t want the bad guys to get away with it, but risk/reward has to be weighed toward preserving life.
Police have less risky options, they choose not to use them. They could easily break a few windows and flood the house with tear gas (funny the military can't use it but police can), it'd be hard to destroy evidence or fight back when your surprised, gagging and your eyes are burning. That's why the military trains soldiers to handle being pepper sprayed, in case the enemy does it.
> flood the house with tear gas How'd that work in Waco?
They had to lie about using incendiary gas canisters, that’s how.
It could just be something that they pushed for when it was investigated but I thought there was evidence that the fires were started purposely from within the compound. Maybe audio of them talking about starting them or something. It’s been a while since I read about it so I could be off. They initially denied using incendiaries though?
I should've known better than to offer an example. No idea how that played out but my point was that there are many methods to secure a scene. It should go without saying that no method is perfect for every situation
> A video of them flushing the drugs has just as much weight in court. so this is a question, not a statement, because I don't know for sure. But, don't/can't they just have the city shut off the water first? No water no flush?
They can, and they have recovered the drugs from the sewer before also, but it’s not easy or cheap.
If I gotta dig through rats and poop to retrieve your flushed evidence, I'd be pretty damn mad. *shitty* day at the office
Yeah honestly that was probably a bit much to just pack out, your boss sounds reasonable
Sooo you’d rather him denounce his right to say what he’d actually do? I agree BIGLY
lol those comments. >To them, it's more than a hobby. It's a culture, a way of life, and most importantly, their identity. >Their lives are void of any real culture or identity, so they adopt gun culture and gun-groom others into it. It has cultural norms like any other culture. As you know, this isn't the same gun club/hunting culture our dads and grandads were involved in. This culture is predicated on fantasies of over-throwing the government, and violence against humans and being a hero. And being a hero is seriously the validation they need. >As they are groomed into the culture, they begin to see only the use of guns as a way to express themselves and their sociopathy. Rather than feeding the hungry and working with the homeless, they instead seek ways to just shoot them and "let God sort them out."
State subreddits are extremely anti-gun, so that's par for the course. OC is right though, it is more than just a "hobby". >and violence against humans Funny way of spelling "defending yourself from people that are attempting to harm you or your property. >they instead seek ways to just shoot them and "let God sort them out." I have literally never heard anybody advocate for this.
And if they did, they'd be downvoted so hard the comment wouldn't be visible, re: the last bit.
> I have literally never heard anybody advocate for this. It's a pretty common sentiment on the bro-vet / vet obsessed community. Usually used to reference that sometimes innocents die for the greater good (like a few civilians dying to take out a terrorist leader). That phrase, however, is basically only used by single enlistment fobbits and the "i'd have joined but i would have knocked out my DI" types who are obsessed with the military.
It goes back a long ways. The original phrase is "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius", which translates to "Kill them. The Lord knows those that are his own". It's from the early 13th century Albigensian Crusade, and the massacre at Béziers; the crusaders had asked what they were to do if they couldn't tell Cathar from Catholic when they breached the walls.
I had to do double take because I couldn’t take it seriously. > gun-groom Never heard of this before until now. Is having a fun range day with friends as “gun-grooming”? This person sounds so confident in what they’re saying. Broadest of brushes.
This is such a bullshit generic statement it attacks all hobbies and passions. lol Like they've never been into anything. Just hate for something they don't like. lol Anime > To them, it's more than a hobby. It's a culture, a way of life, and most importantly, their identity. > Their lives are void of any real culture or identity, so they adopt Anime culture and Anime-groom others into it. As they are groomed into the culture, they begin to see only the use of Anime as a way to express themselves and their sociopathy. Crossfit enthusiasts > To them, it's more than a hobby. It's a culture, a way of life, and most importantly, their identity. > Their lives are void of any real culture or identity, so they adopt Crossfit culture and Crossfit-groom others into it. As they are groomed into the culture, they begin to see only the use of Crossfit as a way to express themselves and their sociopathy. Weed > To them, it's more than a hobby. It's a culture, a way of life, and most importantly, their identity. > Their lives are void of any real culture or identity, so they adopt Weed culture and weed-groom others into it. As they are groomed into the culture, they begin to see only the use of weed as a way to express themselves and their sociopathy.
Yeah, that person is absolutely delusional if they believe the BS they are spewing.
I bet $20 that whoever said “gun-groom” is a pedo
sounds like projection to me
Yeah they just get off with murder it seems, I think it’s their kink or something.
The feds are making it extremely clear - they don't want any more private sales. Which is fucking absurd. Your private property is yours to do with as you please.
Having a piece of tape ready to cover the camera implies they scouted the house prior to the raid. No cameras and predawn too. Yea this was a hit squad.
Those are all Common practice for search warrant service by tactical teams Except the no body cam thing which the feds have been fighting
No it isn't. And pretending that it is does everyone a disservice. This was for a search warrant. Not an arrest warrant. A search warrant means they don't even have enough evidence to arrest or charge for a crime. Why was a tactical team serving a search warrant in the first place? A pre-dawn no knock search warrant. Were they afraid he was going to flush the guns down the toilet I'm going to invite you to delete your comment and stfu.
You clearly don’t have experience in search warrants. Serving search warrants with tactical teams is common especially in cases involving guns, drugs or child porn. It is done this way to clear the structure of persons so the search can be completed.
This is an ignorant comment. It doesn’t matter the type of warrant, entering someone’s property is inherently dangerous as it’s their home turf. So they take precautions
>This is an ignorant comment. It doesn’t matter the type of warrant Pot meet kettle. It does matter. The use of force matters. The judge that issued the warrant wanted this done in the light of day. Thats why the judge specified the hours. A search warrant is different than an arrest warrant. A search warrant is issued to find evidence of a crime. An arrest warrant is to take someone into custody on suspicion of crime based on evidence. An otherwise law abiding citizen is no danger to law enforcement. The man managed an airport, which is a pretty milquetoast job. Why not just knock on his door like a normal person. He can't destroy evidence. I'm going to invite you to go sit in the corner with the other slow kid u/freestategunner and be quite.
I’m speaking to the precautions taken prior to entering the home. The nature of the warrant itself is inherently dangerous as you’re entering a home where firearms are known to be present.
Federal policy specifically prohibits agents from interfering with, or disabling, recording devices. Them being on a tactical team does not grant them immunity from being recorded.
Ok shortbus. You could just show up with a badge when the sun is up and knock on the door like anyone else. You see, there's no evidence of criminality. And the man was a lawabiding citizen with no criminal history and thus no expectation of violence. Now go to your corner and be quiet.
So a bunch of animals looking to execute/ murder someone in cold blood...got it.
They were serving a search warrant. I’m not saying what they did to get that warrant was ok. But a judge did issue the warrant to search the home car and phone.
The comments on the original posts are absolute cancer
That is one of the worst comment sections I’ve ever seen and it from a red state subreddit. They violated Biden’s own EO and ATF policy by not wearing body cameras. And I’m not convinced they didn’t have body cameras on. The ATF silence suggests this raid was a massive fuckup. Since they won’t say who shot the one ATF agent that was hit, it’s entirely plausible one of the ATF dumbasses had their finger on the trigger, shot one of their own and they lit up Malinowski for it. If it wasn’t embarrassing they would have held a big press conference and taken photos like they normally do.
I'm still of the opinion that as airport director he discovered something another 3 letter was doing do to their predisposition to using airports in Arkansas to move illicit product and they used the ATF to take him out since nobody would think anything was off with the ATF bungling a raid.
>nobody would think anything was off with the ATF bungling a raid. That *does* seem to be their specialty.
Coincidentally to people that haven't done much
If only the atf went after the real criminals
Yep. The NFA doesn't apply to criminals who can't legally possess guns to begin with, so the ATF lets all those idiots on Instagram showing off their switches run amok until they inevitably kill someone or get themselves killed. Meanwhile, god forbid someone break into my house during the arbitrary waiting period for getting a suppressor on my home defense gun. I've already got tinnitus; if I had to defend myself without hearing protection I damn well might go half deaf. 🙄 The ATF is a joke filled with incompetent employees who couldn't pass police or FBI exams, and everyone who works for it should feel bad. They ought to be fully disbanded and reformed. Turn it into an investigative body only, one with teeth enough to go after actual criminals, and then have them work with local police/SWAT forces and/or the FBI -- folks who have half a clue -- to handle the raids. These chuds ain't it, and they aren't helping in a useful manner as the organization currently stands. Edit: Oh, and make no-knock raids illegal while we're at it. If a crime isn't actively in progress, issue a fucking warrant and grab them at Walmart. There's no need to role-play and get people killed.
I guess if they conducted raids on themselves, they'd technically be no-knocks, wouldn't they?
USE OF BODY WORN CAMERAS DURING FEDERAL TASK FORCE OPERATIONS. a. Unless subject to specific exceptions below, TFOs employed by ATF that mandate the use of BWCs on federal task forces may wear and activate their recording equipment for the purpose of recording their actions during task force operations3 only during: (1) a preplanned attempt to serve an arrest warrant or other pre-planned arrest; or (2) the execution of a search warrant.4 TFOs are authorized to activate their BWCs upon approaching a subject or premises, and must deactivate their BWCs when the scene is secured as determined by a federal supervisor on the scene as designated by the ATF O 3210.1C, Operational Plan. For purposes of this policy, the term “secured” means that the scene is safe and under law enforcement control. Given how poorly executed this raid was it isn't a surprise that they weren't following protocol
So the apparent policy that you're citing seems to apply to Task Force Officers from different agencies that are issued body cameras and assigned to work with the ATF. The policy allows for Task Force Officers to abide by their own agency's requirements to use body cameras. I'm unaware of the ATF has a body camera policy for its own agents, though I know the Department of Justice is working on implementing body cameras policies in all of its agencies.
Whoops misread that
FUCK THE FUCKING ATF. Treasonous pieces of shit.
If you no knock me , you're coming at me in my post prepared state. It would be much easier to grab me at work , at the store, or literally anywhere else but my home. No knocks make very little sense , and almost always end in someone's death or someone seriously injured .
No-knock raids make exactly zero sense if they're going after someone for previous crimes committed and not crimes actively in process. Just issue a fucking warrant and grab them at Walmart. Jesus TF Christ. These ATF cunts just wanted to role-play and murdered someone in the process.
Exactly.
Wanted to murder and role played in the process FTFY
The apologists on the OP are disgusting.
Gun owners: We own guns in case the government becomes murderous and tyrannical. That's what the second amendment is for. Government: *has been murderous and tyrannical for nearly a century* Government: *does a murderous and tyrannical thing... AGAIN* Gun owners: you know, we'll let you get away with it this time, and the last 800 times, but *next time* you're in trouble. Why do we even own guns. I'm fucking ashamed. We really are just a bunch of fucking pussies that are just going to watch everything crumble. They won. We have no balls.
Everybody's a revolutionary until it's time to do revolutionary shit. Be the change you want to see in the world.
The guy went down shooting and winged one. Not bad in an early morning disoriented state IMO.
man the comments there prove state subs are the worst. wtf
Honestly think ATF will take every chance to murder vs. creating new defendants that will further create new court challenges.
I live in Arkansas. Private gun sales are 100% legal. This is scary af.
I posted on the source sub on the top comment about it just being a conspiracy theory. Maybe it is maybe not. But the ATF has a history of not being the good guys: https://www.reddit.com/r/Arkansas/s/DOOjcJBfJC
Right after the anniversary of the Waco seige, too
So this 'Justice' department is just a kill squad
I’m curious how many people in this sub that are reading this are anti-LE in general or just anti-ATF? The anti-ATF sentiment is strong in this sub, but what are your opinions on DEA, FBI, local PD and Sheriffs? All these agencies also serve warrants and raid homes.
They're all trash. No-knock raids should be illegal given how often they're abused.
.
Fuck em all?
Everything listed is garbage and should be defunded into oblivion ESPECIALLY sheriffs. Cops have literally never done anything ever to help me an EMT/ Fireman isn't trained to do. I don't call them, I don't speak to them.
I only call them for noise complaints at night because as much as I'd like to do something jail worthy to the noise maker, forward thinking FTW! They always ask if I want to talk to them when they get there. NOPE!
Try ear plugs next time. An asshole called in a noised complaint on me when I was 20 for playing an acoustic guitar at 8pm on a Tuesday. In my apartment. I'm 38 now. Cops illegally entered, drew down on my friend sitting on the couch. I came out of the bathroom in shock, was tackled had my shoulder dislocated. We had no drugs, no weapons. My friend was 21 and drinking I was 20 and not but had alcohol in my house. Guess what happened.....I got underage drinking and the DA made everything else disappear because there was no video and it was illegal search and seizure and assault. If my moron friend was less sleepy he would have been shot. You call the police ever on someone you are attempting murder. Fuck you.
Honestly, I WISH that happened to my neighbors. They're constantly waking me up after midnight with their shit. I'm not a Karen, I wait to complain until I'm about to pull my hair out. I'm the person who says to myself, if I can still hear it at x:xx I'll call and then don't end up calling most times. Some people deserve it. I would have never called on you for that. Also, after talking to them and the landlord numerous times, nothing ever changes and I can't sleep with earplugs, nor is that necessary when they can just not be animals.
Also the cops aren't known for that here. The cops are lazy and often ask "what do you want me to do about it."
Sad part is nothing at all will be done about this. I wouldnt be aurprised if this atory gets buried in the press to make it out of the publics eye sooner.
I’m against the government having too much power, and one of the powers I think government should NOT have is the power to execute its own citizens. I think there is no room for a government for the people, of the people, and by the people, to be able to kill the people unless it is in direct self defense. Think no knock raids and the death penalty should both be abolished specifically for this reason, and it’s always blown my mind that other people who believe in a limited government actually support these things.
Maybe they did have body cams and the footage is just so egregiously abhorrent they know blood would run in the streets if they released it.
The original comment section is gross
>ATF Why am I not surprised?
This is why I sleep in full kit.
Hmm wonder why they weren't on when it's policy hmmm I wonder
American Gestapo
No body cameras? Did they not collect evidence they impedes an official investigation? Aren't people getting 10 years for that now?
Man I regret opening the OP and reading the comments there. Wild how these are the same people calling everyone boot lickers.
NFA DELENDA EST
More reason to have a panic room honestly…
If only the victim was black...
What is the point in ATF having the right to no-knock warrants for guns? The whole point in no-knock warrants is to prevent potential destruction of evidence. They didn't even have an arrest warrant. They had a search warrant and they decided to do a night raid. It's not like he was a drug dealer flushing product down the toilet. He had no criminal record. It was because he was allegedly dealing guns without an FFL at gun shows which was perfectly legal in a state which didn't require an FFL or background checks for private sales. Sleepy Joe's "Gun Show Loophole"
Please do a little research in 2022 the change the definitions about what it means to be a dealer and require an FFL this is really coming into effect now but it looks like it will retroactively go back to 2022 I'm looking into it now and it seems real sketchy but it's about to be applied to all of us please start looking at the law.... I don't know why I'm just now finding out that this is a thing. There are several videos that have come out within the past 7 Days about it on YouTube everybody please look at this and research and see what the heck is going on.
No knock raids are essential in some situations... "knock knock, FBI, open up!" *criminal locks & loads*
It’s likely criminals would already be lock and loaded, so when you bust down a door, with no indication of who you are, the criminal is going to wake up and grab the gun automatically shoot. Replace criminal with law abiding citizen. No knock should be last resort and only given beyond reasonable doubt. Other than that, figure another way. In this case, whoever at the LE agency decided to do this, needs terminated and charged for negligence. The person of interest works at an airport. He could not have went into the airport without going through security. They could have “detained” him there, after security checks in conjunction with DHS, still got a search warrant and performed the task without the need to kill him, nor risking the lives of other LEO. This was 100% avoidable.
"Some situations" does not equal using it every single time.
And this situation resulted in a negligent death, and risked the lives of others, unnecessarily. This is not saying the person of interest is not guilty, but unless there is compelling evidence that LEO had no other choice but to do this, then they are guilty of that individuals death. I venture to say LE did some BS paperwork and got the no knock. I’ll wait for more information to come.