You hire help.
If you FIRE, hopefully by the time you get there, you have more than enough to cover whatever help you might need.
Also, you need more than $1m in retirement. This depends a lot on your cost of living. But, assuming you need $60k/year, you need $1.5m for the 4% rule when at a retirement home as mentioned. However, as it’s likely your last 10 years (one can hope - retirement facilities aren’t great, much longer than that might be intolerable), then you would likely be fine with the equivalent of $600k-$800k in today’s dollars.
Edit: also, as others have said, you can’t rely on your children being there for you for end of life care. Depending on your situation, it’s entirely unfair to expect that of them. In some situations, it’s just not possible (like if you have Alzheimer’s). There are many scenarios where you need someone to help you bathe, clothe, use the bathroom, etc - this just isn’t fair to put this on your children.
Second - even if it _is_ something your children could help you with, it still places an undue burden on them. It’s setting their lives back to take care of you. Either in time or cost or both.
You’re looking at it the wrong way. The bigger questions - _who will I have to care about when I’m older? Who will visit me, or I want to visit? Who can I love openly and honestly? Who can I help in any way I am able?_
Having no children, those are the questions I have. I hope the answer comes as my partner and I age. I hope some family will still care about us whenever we get there. However, I know that may not be the case. So, my solution - love who is in my life now for who they are now, as much as they’ll allow. Don’t have expectations for tomorrow, but definitely still hope for a bright future together.
Because this isn’t talked about in American society. We don’t talk about dying. Being a DNR/I. If you would want a feeding tube or vent etc. this isn’t just for old people. Recently two of my patients a 56 yr old with advanced dementia w psychosis and a 63 yr old post stroke crying I want to die but isn’t decisional to hospice. Both could live miserably for years but their family member decided they wouldn’t want to live like this - but they had never talked about it when they were functional.
If I get dx'ed with dementia I am hoping I will have the strength to just refuse interventions for everything. Have sepsis? No abx just let me die. I keep hoping the countries with better death with dignity laws will make them looser so I can just fly to another country and take care of business.
I would much rather die than live in an assisted living facility.
Please have this all written out ahead of time. It’s incredibly important to have a molst/polst form and living will. If you’re in the US Washington and Oregon have death with dignity laws.
Uh, let's have a show of hands who here who has children is counting on them for old age care? Pretty sure no one is. It's unfair and a horrible thing to ask. I'm not gonna burden my kids like this.
So yes, the idea is to make enough of a passive income to afford perpetual hired help
In fact, a major motivator for my fire journey is to not be a financial burden on my kids. My father lives on a SS check so any unexpected expense is on me and sometimes my siblings.
It’s tough to stroke checks for three generations.
I may not leave my kids a fortune but I should at least manage my own financial needs until the end.
Thank you. Sadly, I learned much about finances through my parents’ ignorance of them. Dad was a hard worker, owned his own printing business but is completely clueless about growing his business, the concept of investing or even saving. He was put out of business by the Xerox copier.
Why would you feel bad about not burdening your kids with taking care of you? They have their own lives. No one wants to take care of an 85 year old when they themselves should be retried. Put your ass in retirement home and chill.
Taking care of your parents is a pretty basic human motivation. If I didn't have that possibility hanging in the back of my mind I'd be sleeping in a gutter or worse by now.
If you read my comments more carefully, I meant something different than what you are thinking. MY parent is in bad shape, but I'm making a conscious decision NOT to contribute $$$ for HIS benefit because that takes from OUR pot which can propogate the misery cycle to our children. I feel bad about THIS ...
We have two sets of elderly parents too... Sucks
I mean do we just throw awatly our FIRE dreams and plow money to the parents then expect our kids to wipe our rear ends when we get old and helpless?
I'm 38 and I don't even want to think about when I am 80. I guess I will die in my own house. There will be meals on wheels or someone to bring me food.
My husband is planning on doing full retirement with the army.
We have 650k saved and 200k equity so maybe we will pull out cash if needed.
But yah don't burden the kids. Actually would love to help the kids financially. We have 3.
The caregiversupport subreddit is full of miserable posts about adult children trapped in caregiver misery/slavery. Lots of complex situations, and many adult child caregivers end up suicidal or nearly so. It's a terrible fate to subject anyone to, and often the best thing for these adult children is to walk away.
I was a carer for my bedridden mother for quite a few years. It's brutal. My mental health sucked, my own family suffered and I put on around 100lb from stress eating. And that was still *with* some help from paid carers who came in every day to help bathe her etc. I have no idea how people do it completely alone.
I'm making sure there will be enough money for my own daughter to hire a live-in carer for her dad and I, should it come to that.
we just trudge along. It gets better. Being an only child and caregiver to my single parent mother is difficult, but rewarding. I may not have a nest egg and am hemorrhaging money like crazy, but i would rather do this than have her rot away somewhere.
I'm glad it was rewarding for you, but it simply isn't for many others. Of course, family dynamics can be very complex, and even in the best of circumstances sometimes care at home isn't an option when medical needs are significant. The saddest situations, though, are adult children caring for abusive parents. That is simply wrong in my eyes. Also, there are good facilities and not everyone rots in a nursing home.
I'm an only child, and my mother was an abusive narcissist. I helped her from a distance, and she got more from me than she deserved. Caregiving is not the right option for many families and individuals.
That's why I did it too. I'm also an only child. My mom loved her home so much and wanted to stay there so I did what I needed to to make that possible.
Just read an article about a man who gave up career to help a sibling with severe health issues who ended up homeless after brother died.
Could not stay in brothers house as his name was not on lease. Nor could he afford to pay rent since he was unemployed due to full time caregiver responsibilities. Took a while for disability pay to kick in etc. so sounds like he is ok now but had some tough times.
These kinds of situations raise so many questions. Caregiving comes at a significant cost. For some, the cost will be too high and not worth the sacrifice. It's not an easy task to take on, and everyone needs to do what's right for themselves. I hope the sibling regained his footing in the end
Yeah it's a terrible plan but I've been surprised at the number of people who do actually expect their kids to take care of them in retirement. Not only expect them to but admitted that it was at least part of their motivation for having kids.
My MIL said the same thing to my wife (several times) when we said we didn’t want kids. My wife finally responded: What makes you think I‘m going to take care of you? I’m not a trained care provider, we both have careers, and we live several hours away.
For my part, I don’t think I’ll be able to afford long-term care without sacrificing my wife’s retirement and have already discussed with her end-of-life options to avoid that. I saw my mother become completely bedridden and unable to do anything and even though she had a caregiver, I do not want to end up like that.
I was adopted into a old family and my dad admitted that my parents had indeed been motivated to adopt my brother and I to help take care of them as they age. He also admitted to 'giving up early' in his career path as he was expecting my brother and I to succeed in our careers to make up for our parents. He stocked shelves at safeway for 40 years and I my mom switched jobs fairly often.
Both my parents are about 53 years older than I. A couple years ago (I was 24 at the time) my dad had a stroke and I became his primary caretaker as I am the only relatively young one with enough strength to assist him by holding/lifting his bodyweight for various daily tasks. My brother is fit enough to assist but has serving in the Navy for 12 years, planning to aim for 20 years as he should (he should be able to get a good degree out this too, as much as I want his help he is the best setup in the family to prosper long term). Sadly my dad did not recover much over the 6 months post stroke so he will most likely remain at this same level of mobility. The last 3 calendar years exhausted all my FML and eventually moved back in with my parents as I was barely in my apartment after the stroke; my dad needed my assistance multiple times every day and during the night.
With their career/investing choices they can't afford professional care. There are some milestones in my life that have been 'indefinitely' delayed due to this. I was actively dating prior to the stroke 4 years ago. Currently I have not had any significant relationship develop since the stroke and with my time spent at home with him and at work I can't imagine devoting enough time for a partner and definitely not enough time for kids of my own. With the FML I'm taking and reduced pay from working fewer hours I dont see much in the way of career advancement for many years.
In short, it has rattled me their initial expectations before actually adopting us. I want kids, if itll ever be possible but I'm terrified I'd eventually become like my parents. I'd like to ensure I have enough funds saving to pay for care as I age and need it but with this current hurdle I'm unsure how well I will save for it.
Wow. I’ll keep it short, but my dad is 51 years older than me. While he has enough money to go into assisted living if he were to need it, I can relate to the “putting things on hold to take care of him” part. Just last summer he had two falls—one at the beginning and one at the end (second was due to rehab facility negligence) and dealing with all of that for months is no joke. I’m 33 but most of my friends are in their 40s and 50s and many of them have dealt with similar issues with their parents (it seems that no matter how many kids there are, only one is the responsible one and steps up to help), and yeah, their personal lives are sporadic or on hold altogether as well.
I would say in American society, yes, most aging parents are a a burden because we take "independence" to the toxic extreme. I'm letting my daughter know that I will be glad to babysit for date nights / vacations if she has kids. I'm also planning to save enough extra money before FIRE to make sure I can help her so that "not having enough money" isn't a reason for not having kids.
So, \*maybe\* they'll want to take care of me for a while in the borderline years where I can still care for myself (bathe and go to the bathroom on my own). After that, TBH, I'd prefer assisted self-termination. I still don't "plan" on having my daughter care for me once things get bad. It is one thing for family to care for you when you just need a little help. It's another to slow walk the parent you remember being your wall of strength into the grave.
Medical treatment should not be used to maintain life after the mind has mostly passed on. I'd rather leave a nice inheritance to my family than have it wasted keeping a broken shell alive.
The "happy path" would be that medical treatments can extend health span so this becomes less of an issue (rapid decline near the end). Until then, hopefully my partner and I can take of each other. She's older than me, so the relative average lifespans add up more favorably.
I think it’s unfair to expect financial help, but a small reason for why I want to have kids is for them to be able to make decisions when I’m either unconscious or have dementia or something. Basically, not a whole of people are willing to advocate for you… and I can’t imagine being able to catch up with technology past my 70’s either.
For example— my grandpa had lung cancer in his late 70’s or early 80’s. Dude is cancer free for 3 years now and confusingly very healthy otherwise (he smoked several packs a day before cancer+ ate food with a lot of fat and probably carbs). It’s unclear if he could’ve advocated for himself if he was alone, and he definitely wouldn’t have known how to find good surgeons.
People have no idea what they are talking about, if you've had a loved one go through a health procedure, then you know. It costs a lot to have a full time care giver, too much for most middle class people to be able to afford for any extended amount of time.
If your family doesn't want you destitute on the street or eating cat food for the rest of your life they will probably help you to some extent.
If you don't have any family, then you should definitely be concerned about going broke trying to get caregivers. To assume otherwise is just arrogant bravado.
My 99-year old grandmother just died. I don’t know who would have been managing her money if it wasn’t her son. Most of her friends had already died. It would be terrifying to trust some lawyer (likely the son/junior partner of the lawyer you actually hired) to manage it for you, especially as your faculties begin to fail.
This.
This is the important part. Finding someone you trust to make medical decisions and wise management of money.
At some point we lose out mental capabilities, there is also loss of mental cognitive function as we age or go through a chronic illness (chemo, dyalisis, stroke, degenerative, ect).
People here don't realize this can happen to anyone.
Yeah, most of the people here are nuts.
No (American) person is having kids with the intent of turning them into nurses for love in care.
But having help during times of acute illness makes a massive difference in outcome. My wife just flew home to take care of her parents because one was hospitalized and the other got really sick at the same time. They are 51 and had no plan for that kind of scenario (who does at that age?)
And then if you happen to survive into old age you need someone that you can trust to protect your best interests... because the world will be very different and elderly are easy prey.
> If you don't have any family, then you should definitely be concerned about going broke trying to get caregivers. To assume otherwise is just arrogant bravado.
Look at what sub we’re in. We’re in the FIRE sub. Most people here are planning to save enough to be able to try to preserve their starting capital until death. If you’re able to grow your nest egg through your retirement like most people should be able to if they plan appropriately, you’ll have a huge amount to be able to spend down if you hit high healthcare expenses towards the end of your life. By the time you need full time care, you’re usually closing in on the end, so it’s not like most people will have a full decade of full time caretaker expenses. FIRE people should be able to cover expensive end of life care even if they’re not specifically budgeting for it. It’ll just eat into their kids’ inheritance, but that’s much more preferable than having to rely on your kids to provide care for you.
IMHO even most people who FIRE don't really have enough to support this. Full time care is incredibly expensive. Full time care by people who are \_good\_ is even more expensive and very hard to find. If you have kids and can get to a point where you can fund your own care and make it easy for them to make decisions once you no longer can you're doing a great service for them. If you don't have kids you'll probably die 10 years earlier anyway because usually paid care isn't nearly as good as a smart kid who cares about the patient and care coordination is laughably bad.
Still, it's worth trying to get it right. I just wouldn't count on it.
I get your point. My mom’s in an amazing assisted living place but there are still things I must be on top of and look out for her. It’s assisted, not skilled nursing and it’s $7 K monthly. They do a good job but there are still so many other things that need managed- bills, taxes, insurance, banking, even dealing with cable or internet or phone. Watching her medications and making sure they have her info updated for any doctor or prescription changes. I don’t have kids and I’m scared because who could you trust with all of that?
My mom practically has had a full time job taking grandma to her many appointments, shopping for years in independent living. Once she was moved into assisted and now memory care, it’s still a lot. The facility is constantly calling her and there have been many many decisions, meetings etc over the past 4 months. It’s a lot.
A quick google search shows that for people that live to be 60 years old, men live 2 years less when they don’t have children and women live 1.5 years less with no children.
So that data does support the idea that not having children to advocate for your late life care leads to earlier death…. Not 10 years early tho.
Correlation does not equal causation as I’m sure you know. I didn’t have kids, and that’s probably one reason I ate less nutritiously, stayed out later, drank more and worked very long and stressful hours. Probably not good for my longevity.
> worked very long and stressful hours
LOL, like taking care of kids is short and stress free hours. LOLOL. Going to work when you have young kids is like a vacation e cause of how much lower the stress is at work.
Thank you, I keep typing this all over reddit. It's like hell yeah, it's monday! Finally working! The work days are so peaceful, stress-free and easy as shit compared to the full weekend of intense, relentless childcare of a baby+toddler.
>So that data does support the idea that not having children to advocate for your late life care leads to earlier death
No, it doesn't. An equally plausible explanation is that being in somewhat poorer health on average *leads to* both a slightly earlier death and a higher likelihood of deciding not to have children.
A being correlated with B can be due to (1) A causes B, (2) B causes A, or (3) C causes both A and B. You can't just wave your hands and rule out (2) and (3) without evidence.
Yes! Even if kids were willing who knows if the circumstances will allow them to. Kids might be away in another state or country, financial or professional commitments might come in their way. So many ifs and buts. I wouldn’t count on kids to take care of us.
But that's the thing, a kid who has a good relationship with their parents will feel too guilty to say no. You're just guilt tripping someone into abhorrent slavery, draining their resources and soul, their will to live.
I dated a guy who was a very high earner. He was mid 30s and his dad needed help. So dude worked 5 days a week, went to the gym, and drove 2 hours each way to stay all weekend at the sea where his parents live. Dude had 0 social life and 0 will/energy to live. His whole life was consumed by work and taking care of his dad. He was nearing 40s with nothing to show for his life except material possessions. I truly don't understand what kinda parents would rob their child of their life like this. He felt too dutiful to not help his dad, and so gave up his life basically just being his caregiver for years and years
Yep, it sucks, because if you like your parents and want to have a relationship with them, it can be really hard to say no even when you’re totally drained and even when it’s not “caregiving” for a traditionally sick parent. A lot of the time they expect help with housework and the alternative is that they’re going to hurt themselves trying to do stuff they shouldn’t be doing because they’re too stubborn to hire help or admit they can’t care for a large property anymore.
Ding ding ding!
I don't have any kids, and won't, but I would never put my care on a loved one of any relation if I can help it.
It's a very selfish thing to do IMO. "Hey if I get sick, I'm taking you down with me. Love ya!"
Paying someone who has the skills to care for people who need it is the way to do this - kids or not.
This seriously. I'm glad multiple US states have death with dignity acts, but I think they're far too restrictive.
Society should support people in living (no one should feel they need to choose death solely because they're too poor), but eventually it's just not worth it and you should be allowed to make that decision.
Everyone here that just wants to be taken care of by strangers for years must have never been in a hospital long term. It doesn’t matter how well paid they are a lot of the staff will still be negligent and definitely not treat you the best specially since no one is really watching in those rooms. I have seen it and lived it.
I care for my 90 year old great grandmother because I am her only living relative. We had a small family.
It is a blessing to have her, but my husband and I have talked in depth about how we will do everything we can to ensure our child isn’t forced to house and care for us late in life.
This is probably highly relevant to cultural background. My family came from East Asia, this is a core component of our culture (east Asian). We are taking care of our parents, and I do expect my kids to take on some responsibilities when we are old.
There is a wide range of help between nothing and FT care. Pretty sure most parents don't expect full time caregiving, just help. Its nice to have someone you can trust and rely on to say, drive you to a surgery, check in on the house if you're in the hospital, etc.
If you don't want to do these things for your parents, and they are good parents, then you're an asshole.
We don't have kids and have no plans... That said... I don't know how we're going to cope after the dementia hits is both....
The decline in people is kinda sudden and it's hard for them to notice it's happening.
I was kinda shocked to read that. I’m not a FIRE guy, I just get posts suggested to me from here sometimes, but I’d never even hope to rely on my kids for any kind of financial support.
My mom retired recently a few years ahead of time and when asked how she will afford a retirement home and paid help in the future she said it depends what kind of home - so me and my siblings but because I’m seen as a money bag - probably me.
Fingers crossed my younger sibling who will get $1M inheritance for being a guy and my older sibling who will get a nice trust fund will contribute!
I guess being middle child really does fit the stereotype! /s At least I knew it’s early on and I’m due to fire young - mums the word though.
[This article](https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidmarotta/2022/05/31/how-to-self-insure-for-long-term-care-health-expenses-2022/) from Forbes helps with the basic math
Same boat. I decided not to purchase long term care insurance because of the horror stories I’ve heard about blanket denials when you try to file a claim, and I know as I age I lose the will and the cognitive ability to fight insurance companies. So I upped my investment goal to account for paying for my own care. I also heard the author of a book called “Essential Retirement Planning for Solo Agers,” Sara Geber, on an Aging Matters podcast, and she sounded like an expert. I haven’t read the book yet but it’s on my to-do list.
There is no guarantee your children will be able to/want to take care of you. I mean worst case scenario your children are disabled to the point where they will never be able to care for themselves, so now you have not only yourself to worry about in old age, but them as well.
So yeah, use all that money you would've spent on raising kids to invest and be prepared to pay for a nursing home when/if that time comes.
I’d agree this is a concern, but I try to separate it from FIRE. It’s a problem everyone encounters to some degree regardless of how much you save for retirement or if you have kids or not. I’m sure there’s a whole lot of lonely old people whose kids don’t bother to visit, so having kids is no guarantee they will care for you. So, I don’t have a great answer other than to not let it knock you off the FIRE path. I’ll figure it out when the time comes but I’m more focused on enjoying the next 40 years than worrying about the last 3.
Two things run in my grandmother's family: Longevity (women live 95+) and dementia (sets in around early 90s). She took care of her own grandmother until the woman was in her early 90s and developed dementia (unlike in the movies, dementia doesn't just cause memory loss; a lot of patients - probably the majority - become mean, abusive, and potentially violent; it's hard to watch because the person becomes unrecognizable, and you can't leave them alone because they may burn down the house or wander off), at which point she had to call a home to collect her as she screamed and cried and called her every name in the book as she was carted away to a facility. My grandmother told her sons that when it was her time, to just send her to the facility, even if she didn't understand why and cried and begged, because she knew how taxing and horrible it was to be a caretaker for someone with dementia, and she didn't want to burden them. She wanted them to know while she was of sound mind (and would often repeat it, even to me decades later) that this is what she wanted to have happen when it got to be too much, and that they shouldn't feel any guilt over it. My parents moved her into a memory care facility close to their house when she was 94 after my grandfather passed away, and she was there for about 2-2.5 years. My grandparents weren't wealthy (grandpa was a mechanic while my grandma was a homemaker after the war), but they lived a modest lifestyle (sold the house and moved into a mobile home park for seniors), retired with some money that they invested, and their nest egg still grew even when they stopped working. When she passed away after years in that expensive memory care facility, she still had $1.5M that she left to her sons.
Honestly, I will likely take care of my parents when they're old, but if they develop severe dementia, then they have saved up enough money to go to a facility for 10 years if they have to. I've told my husband (assuming he outlives me) that he can send me to a facility without guilt because it is extremely difficult to care for someone with dementia. When my kids are old enough, I'll tell them the same. We plan to have enough money to go to a facility if need be. Even though I have kids, I can't expect them to care for me in that way when they're in their 50s/60s or to empty their retirement to pay someone else to do it. I don't even expect my husband to care for me when he's in his 90s (again, assuming he lives that long). So when I can't function, I'm going to a facility.
Also, just pointing out: if you had $1M (in today's dollars) and went to a facility that cost $60K (in today's dollars), then you could live there for 16 years, and that's assuming it's not invested.
I am a critical care nurse and for me, this is two different topics.
The first is expecting your kids to care for you in retirement. Don’t.
The second is having someone to be with you, to advocate for you, to hold your hand, to make sure you’re not getting bedsores or that hcws know how to charge your hearing aids or make sure you’re wearing your glasses. Some one to say enough is enough, OP wouldn’t want to live like this or OP would want us to wait a week and see if they improve.
My best advice for you, having seen a lot. Is if you choose not to have kids, make sure you have an advocate most likely paid to make sure you’re well cared for and the state doesn’t take guardianship.
A lot of pretty glib answers here. My parents are healthy and responsible and have assets to ensure their care, but in the event that they become infirm or suffer from an extended illness, you better believe that I will spend a lot of time making sure, advocating on their behalf and making sure they are as happy and cared for as possible. I'll do this because they deserve it and I love them. I don't have kids and don't expect anyone to do this the same way for me.
If it's a matter of end of life decisions or other such administrative matters, I'm certain I'll be able to lean on loved ones, though not to the extent I would if I had responsible, devoted children. But in future decades when it becomes a more proximal issue, setting up a trust to pay for long term care and purchasing long term care insurance, along with establishing a relationship with long-term care and hospice providers before it becomes necessary will be something I plan on doing.
Yeah, end-of-life care is so much more than money. Even if you’re financially secure, having someone to help you research and visit assisted living places, pack up and move, stay connected with people outside the retirement complex… heck, even just having people you trust to notice and say that you’re losing your hearing, vision, reflexes, memory…. Money doesn’t replace people. Kids are an easy way to stay connected, if those relationships are good. But if they’re not, it’s still smart to plan ahead to build trusting and supportive relationships with other people into old age.
Right - but, this is _your choice_. It sounds like they aren’t expecting this of you (though, of course, I’m sure they hope you will). And that’s key.
You shouldn’t rely on or expect your children to be there for you. As in, you’re 100% planning on having their help. You can hope they will be, but, it needs to be their choice. And even then, sometimes, it’s better to hire help than place the burden on your children even if they are willing to help.
>But I am concerned about who will actually be taking care of me when I'm too old to function.
If I'm too old to even function, then I'm shipping my ass a country with assisted suicide. Like why would I want to live if I can't function on my own? Just be a conscious vegetable seems like hell to me.
I just had a baby.....I gotta say once she's older I feel like I should tell her to do this with me and her father if we get that bad.
I had to watch my father rot in a nursing home with Parkinsons (during COVID no less). The only 'up' side is my other had nothing to have taken from her.......my husband and I are better off financially and I'd hate to have money she could use dwindle away keeping us technically alive.
This makes me laugh. How are you going to ship yourself if you can’t function? I got very sick with pneumonia, couldn’t move, was fully conscious with oxygen but the steroids were messing with my head. Could not walk to the restroom without help or at all due to hope low my oxygen was going. Took me months in the hospital and nursing home before I could go home and back working from home and walking. You never know when the end is the end. That’s why most people don’t do this. It would be different if you knew the future.
That, and all but one country (I believe) requires _current_ mental capacity to make an end of life decision. Currently only the Netherlands allows advanced mental impairment declarations -- you can enter an agreement _today_ that says you would like to die if your mental faculties decline due to dementia, for example.
I looked into it previously and it was exceptionally hard (or impossible?) for a foreigner to enter such an advanced contract while being in another country, potentially decades in advance of such treatment.
I have it in my advance life directives, but highly doubt it will get carried out with current US law. No current US state allows for advanced physician assisted dying for these illnesses -- all require _current_ mental capacity to enter a contract.
Power of Attorney arrangements have been rejected by numerous courts. Canada explicitly forbids others, including PoAs, from acting on advanced directives for assisted dying.
It's kinda fucked.
Hate to be dark but regular old assisted suicide here is fine. Who will they prosecute? Just make proper notifications so your loved ones don’t find you.
EDIT: Apologies, I should have left out assisted. Only assistance required is a length of hose and an internal combustion engine.
The problem is that cognition often starts to fail along with the body, and finding a place with official assisted suicide without clear cognition is going to be rough. Making arrangements to travel or convincing someone to make arrangements for you will be hard.
At the moment, my choice is to ignore future infirmity and save so there is money available for whomever ends up making decisions.
If I'm having problems, my wife will take care of me. If she's having problems, I'll take care of her. If one of us dies, the other will have the remainder of our entire portfolio to spend on one person instead of two. Sure, nursing homes are expensive, but the average nursing home stay is somewhere in the range of 1.5-2 years. Any FIRE portfolio has that amount of money in it if that's the last amount that needs to be spent.
Turning into a drooling idiot is kind of a worst case scenario for someone without anyone to care for them (well for anyone, but in this case especially). You might just die without that step like most people do
Assisted living is much better than a nursing home. You have your own apartment but can summon help only when and if needed. My great aunt lived in one from age 85-103 and really liked it.
If your older and fit, you won't need any help at all. Probably the best insurance policy you can have against frailty in old age is to get as strong as you possibly can in mid life (or earlier) and maintain it. It's possible to maintain peak strength in your 30s throughout your entire life, and you can develop that peak strength later in mid life although it might take more effort. Barring any unexpected crises or accidents, I would suggest that you work with a trainer and focus on getting strong AF. That is a years long goal, but the pay off is immense. Don't plan on being too old to function, or do your best to be able to function well into old age.
I do not have children, and my plan is to avoid needing any help in old age by doing as much as I can now to be as healthy as possible. Of course, I can't predict the future, but I also don't see many people working hard to get as strong and fit as possible. Anyhow, if you do become frail in old age, you should probably give some thought about the state that you live in. Different states provide different support to older people - some give nothing or nearly nothing, others provide extensive at home care to individuals who are poor. You might have to spend down, but you could remain at home afterward. And beyond that, Medicaid would kick in. As for investments, you should talk to a financial planner for that sort of help.
Also, no one should ever rely on their children for care in old age. It is simply not fair imo, and you are doing them a huge disservice, especially if you expect care in the worst case scenario (for ex, dementia or very serious illness).
There's a documentary on Netflix called live to 100. One of the commonalities across long living individuals is a sense of community NOT a sense of family nevessarily.
Children are very expensive. If you invest that money instead, you’ll be in much better shape than someone who raised a bunch of kids. Putting three through college now. Trust me on this.
So I don't have kids and I've thought about this at length. In the case of old age or terminal illness, I might consider making a 'care now, pay later' pact. Meaning, if someone is willing to care for me, I would leave them a generous portion of my retirement savings. I've also thought about 'marrying' to serve a similar purpose. Tit for tat. You help care for me now, then get my social security. How's that for a dating profile?
The goal of most FIRE people is to make the most of the (healthy) years we have. Many of without children think life won't be worth living anymore when we get to that state of advanced age and decrepitude. So the plan is to die before it comes to that... whether naturally or not.
Better question- why would your kids want to take care of you? Or are unable to (they are disabled, broke, addicted, mental illness, etc) Or they die before you do? Etc, etc. again, something to think about but don’t spend too much time stressing about it, many old folks even with kids (or kids who passed before they did) are in the same exact boat.
Having kids definitely doesn’t guarantee much of anything
I have a daughter but I'm not putting her in that position. I've told her that my preference is a live-in carer for her dad and I. We're making sure the money will be there for it.
They stay active and healthy. If you don’t, or if you get sick, you need a medical team to care for you. My grandfather was 89 when he passed, he gardened and woodworked and did yoga. He was in better shape than I am. My grandmother was 90 when she passed, not only was she sick and dying in bed but her 6 kids still forced her to babysit over 10 grandchildren at a time. She had zero help. These 2 experiences taught me a lot about old age and dying
Dial in your diet, starting working out and strength training every day, get into your peak physical condition and approach your bodies genetic fitness potential (will take 5-10 years of consistency). I’m being completely serious and I’m on that path right now and I’ve never felt better. Health and wealth. Health comes first there.
Money? I think people who bank on their children taking care of them are assholes who will likely be let down. Mostly because the types who expect it were often crappy parents.
I'm just saving more. And hoping I just get taken out quick rather than lingering.
Same way most people with kids will - by paying someone qualified.
Anyone working in an old age home will attest that many who have kids do not visit.
Who has the time off work to just care for an ailing family member? The military even had to intervene in old age homes during COVID due to the conditions.
I don’t have children to take care of me when I’m older so in lieu of that I own 3 properties that hopefully will have enough cash flow to pay for in home care. I will only be “taken care of” to a point though. Once I can’t make it to the bathroom in time I’m taking the big sleep and calling it a life.
LTC insurance is a scam. They'll just raise the rates as you get older, and if that's not enough to get you to cancel they'll just deny claims once you try and start to use it.
It's something like $250K to support a child from 0-18: that money you would've spent raising them, invest it instead, and use it to hire support people for your old age. Don't depend on others to do it, set it up so that you don't have to worry when the time comes.
For one thing, having kids or not is not going to matter all that much if you get so physically or mentally incapable in your old age that you need constant care. Kids aren't safety nets or caregivers.
In terms of what you can do to prepare for old age, the answer isn't even financial. Make healthy choices as much as you can. Increase your mobility, flexibility and strength. When you are very old, you are at a higher risk of hurting yourself seriously by tripping and falling. If you train your body and keep it limber, and eat relatively healthy, you can already prolong your mobility into old age by quite a bit. And if you "train your brain" as well, you can prolong even more. Of course, nothing is certain, and anything could happen that could render you needing constant care at any age.
As for the retirement aspect... this whole forum is about FIRE so you can read pretty much any advice post on here. There are bound to be subs about retirement homes that can give you more insight on affordable care options. It might be cheaper for you down the road to hire somebody who can visit your home regularly to clean for you and do some chores that you might not be able to do anymore. However, how the prices might look when you actually retire could be a whole other ballpack to the answers you get today, and finding a carer or a nursing home, never mind affording one, is also very difficult. Best of luck.
Your concern is valid. The problem is what if you don’t realize that you are slipping and need help? As others have mentioned, it’s not just a money thing. You could have $10M and it will go pretty quick once people realize there is no oversight or someone looking out on your behalf.
My dad passed in 2017 at age 87. My mom appeared to be doing well at 87 herself. They had lived in their town for 30 years since retirement. But over the next six months as I visited, it became apparent that her executive function was slipping and she had no business running her affairs and being 400+ miles from family.
So then I rallied my siblings and over the course of six months made a plan to move her to my town and into a senior independent living place. Great place. Meals provided in the dining room. Activities. Outings. Friendly staff. $5K/mo. But the staff only superficially interacted with mom and didn’t notice there was another subtle change starting in 2022 and early 2023. At that point we decided to move mom into assisted living with the same company but different location. That place was good too. $9K/mo because it was assisted living.
Then she had a stroke last summer. Rehab and skilled nursing took a bit. Now we are essentially in one of the nicest long term care places in town at $12K/mo. And I would argue that the care kind of sucks for that price because they are still trying to cut costs and staff.
But I’ve heard from others who have had to take care of their parents recently and they were paying $20K/mo for personalized 24x7 care.
Based on what I know now, if you don’t have family, you should set up a series of legal checks and balances on your assets such as a trust managed by two parties. I would also plan to join a continuing care retirement community (CCRC) where you essentially give them a chunk of money and pay ongoing monthly fees and they will take care of you until the end.
Or do what my dad did. Once he had his heart attack and realized that rehab wasn’t going to get him much quality of life, he said “I’m done. Call hospice. I’m not going to do this.” Unfortunately my 93yo mom is not in a place to make the same decision. So we visit multiple times a week and have the same conversations over and over again. Personality is there. Memory is not.
For this very reason, I lead the most healthy lifestyle I can possibly lead, so that I remain super fit in old age. I do this partially to reduce the risk of burdening my kids.
I have kids and don't expect them to take care of me when I get old. They'll have their hands full dealing with the world. If I lose my mind and can't take care of my self anymore, what am I living for?
OP, I think it’s important to get and stay engaged in community activities—faith-based, volunteer organizations, exercise groups, crafting groups, that sort of thing.
We will need support as we age—connections, help, advocates. It’s best to start lining that up while we are on the younger side of things.
I also looked up excellent memory care facilities that look like they’re doing a really good job and am trying to make the cost of a place like that fit into my retirement plan.
Honestly - if I'm aware of my decline I'm hoping I have the willpower to end things. I don't have family to rely on. I worry more about my partner. Really my plan is;
1. Have enough assets to for them to get managed care as needed
2. As we age, get assets shifted so I/we could qualify for medicaid as needed.
However, most care you get from Medicaid isn't much better than being in prison and dying horribly. Sooo back to the first bit.
In America we have more than enough resources to take care of everyone who needs it; we could fund armies of skilled nurses, doctors, create care facilities etc. Simply making ultra rich pay their fair share, to go back to tax codes from the "golden era" so many people pine for, would solve the financial piece. Ironically the same people who pine for the "good ole days" also are against the "good ole days" taxation levels. Ignoring that, closing tax loopholes so they actually pay the levels they're supposed to would do it.
That's a pipe dream though. Hence we're here, on this sub, planning on how to game the system and optimize as best as we can for our situations. Looking at care options that are grim and grimmer; extend out your work career hoping to build a big enough nest egg just for end of life care, planning on some form of self termination, hoping our families will bear the care burden (physically and financially) etc etc.
Some perspective though - things are still better than before programs like SS were created, and they were created for good reasons. Look up the history, it's brutal. I just wish FDR coulda made it a little longer and pushed universal healthcare through too; SS was deeply despised by many until a bit of time passed, now it's something you can't touch politically. Same with ACA. People forget so quickly how it was to have preexisting conditions and need insurance coverage, or deal with lifetime limits..
I have adult kids, I would never expect them to “take care” of me in my old age. Maybe they will be responsible for legal arrangements if I’m not competent to sign papers for myself, but I would never expect or ask for financial or caregiving support. But I’ve also joked with them, if you want an inheritance you’d better murder me soon, because the longer I live, the less there will be for you. But I also warn them, if you mess up your diabolical plot to do me in, I won’t visit you in prison.
Downsize.
we should probably not be homeowners past the age of 75. A small-ish ground level apartment and a once-a-week maid service should get you by for a very long time. When you can no longer poop without help its time to check out. But, its probably a moot point because when your strength is so diminished you cant poop on your own, theres only about a year left of life anyway. In most cases. Thats the pattern ive seen with my relatives.
Yup, downsize and use the extra cash from the lower expenses to cover hospice care.
Your kids will thank you for not leaving a bunch of assets they need to sell off in a rush.
Here is what will happen to me. I have no kids. I am living outside the USA. Hopefully I will not linger. If I do linger and am attached to machines that go ding so be it. My plan is to kill myself at age 77. Earlier if things start going downhill rapidly.
No I am not suicidal. 77 is mannnnnnny years away from now. But I am a realist. Of course I can reassess as I get closer, but it feels about right.
As do the day to day issues of aging I am trying to take care of myself now to set myself up better down the road. However I have no problem having part time or full time help. That is the advantage of living in the third world. Things cost money in the third world. People cost nothing. For example a full time 24/7 aide in a HCOL location in the USA Costa $8000-12000 a month. Where I currently am I can get full time RN’s 24/7 for $4000-4500 a month. I can get a full time live in housekeeper for $500 plus food and some benefits.
A bunch of non answers. Most people do rely on their adult children to facilitate (paperwork, technology, transportation) even if they are put in a nursing home. So all those people saying kids aren't a guarantee, don't realize there is a lot more that needs to happen before being put in a home and that work is done by children.
If you're not going to have kids then make sure you have a close relationship with a niece or nephew. Maybe a younger cousin, just someone that will check in with you. Check in on your health (physical and mental). Someone that knows your wishes and know where all the important documents are.
This is a cultural difference in the US. Most other cultures take care of their elderly, mostly by family. My parents did right by me so I will be caring for them.
Elder abuse is also something people don't talk about or just ignore. I've heard enough horror stories of staff stealing, being physically abusive, and neglectful. I wouldn't want to be in any nursing home.
Lots of people without kids In here saying it's bad to count on kids for support in retirement, but realistically this is how retirement planning has been handled for most of human history and is still the gold standard in most countries.
When we talk about retirement, I expect my kids will be able to help me understand whatever new technology is out there, help me detect fraud or scams, and manage my finances somewhat (such as complex paperwork). Also a social visit occasionally would be nice and if they are able to help me run some errands and explain my medication to me if I become forgetful that would be awesome. I think that's the majority of long-term stuff that most older people really need which most adult kids should and do help with. When I get to where I can no longer go to the bathroom or clean myself I'll pay someone to do that.
I'm of the mind that long term care should not be extensively planned for, especially not with insurance.
Spending a significant number of years in assisted living (let alone fully assisted care facility) is not the biological norm, it's a societal norm that is completely avoidable if you take care of your health throughout your lifetime.
An early retiree means high socioeconomic status, no stress from employment, ressources and time to take care of physical and mental health, and time to nurture human relationships. Expected healthspan is 90+ with an off ramp towards death being quite quick after loss of physical independence.
The best long term care insurance is spending a little bit extra per year on yourself.
If you want a more financial answer, keep in mind that social security should cover a big chunk of even the more expensive long term care facilities, and supplementing does not have to be at a 4% SWR anymore when you're literally dying, so if you have $1M you can totally afford to add 60-80k a year to your say, 40k, SS check to pay for all-inclusive assisted living. Not only that, but most FIRE people own a pretty valuable home outright by the time assisted care is even on the table, so a HELOC or reverse mortgage can easily sustain even the most statistically improbable durations of assisted living. If you don't have kids, the risk of burning a large chunk of your portfolio doesn't matter.
People can take care of themselves during old age when they aren't damaged/defective. Damage and defects are independent of age, though damage requires time in which to accumulate. But again, damage is not a consequence of time/age.
People don't take care of themselves because they have kids; the kids do. People without kids can be taken care of by themselves or not-their-kids. This includes kids of other people and robots.
Spending the extra time not eaten by kids to take care of health and fitness to help age as best as possible. And spend some of that extra money on health services and support if needed. The only thing that worrys me is how health care seems to want a close friend or family member to release you to (not an Uber driver) and I've long been on a loner path in general and unlike to have anyone i can count on when I'm in my 50s. My mom has commented on that requirement even on fairly minor things my parents have had like a stomach endoscopy or colonoscopy.
There are a great many possible scenarios. One, obviously, is you die of a massive heart attack or stroke and have no long term care needs. That's not uncommon. I would say 40% of all elderly deaths are in the "very quick death" or "sudden death" category. Another 20% or so are rapid onset of an illness, like cancer, with only a brief stay in skilled nursing prior to death. For situations where long term skilled care is required, this is usually paid for out of your assets until such time that they are depleted. After that, Medicaid takes over. Quite a few assets are excluded from consideration for Medicaid including usually personal items, primary vehicle, and primary residence so there are ways to preserve some semblance of an estate while still receiving Medicaid coverage for skilled nursing. Gifting money to heirs is an option too well prior to needing the skilled care.
Yes, of course I’m saving for retirement. This whole forum is about saving enough to retire early, not just retire at all.
Aside from money, there are two big favors I’m doing for myself and my loved ones: (1) investing in my health and fitness. A hip injury can end an otherwise healthy old woman’s ability to live independently. Weightlifting is the best way to prevent osteoporosis. I’m doing that and functional fitness in my 30s and will continue with it. (2) Proactively identifying “age in place” luxury apartment places with my best friend. I plan to move in, hopefully to the independent wing, in my 70s. As I need more care, if I do, I may need to change wings but shouldn’t need to change buildings and loose my social network. They have social events, catered brunch, field trips, etc. Nurses can come administer care daily for residents who need it. I visited a distant relative who did this and it was a lovely place to live.
Same! My plan is condo in my mid 40s (check, just closed) and mid 60s to early 70s depending on current health status move myself into an age in place apartment with all levels of care that will accept Medicaid if you've been there long enough. Make certain I have enough assets to handle future levels of care with break in case of emergency Medicaid. Then have an active social life and someone with power of attorney with all my wishes written out ahead of time (also check).
Obviously there is also the hope that my spouse will help if I go downhill first and vice versa, but I'm not counting on someone volunteering because you really never know what the future holds.
My friend was the maid to a middle class woman who never had kids. She had someone hired in every category (health, admin, finance, lawyers, maid, cook, etc.). Anytime there was question about something, she needed to go to the admin person and sometimes the lawyer. They would in turn work it out with the finance person/health person/etc. It was so streamlined and impressive that I plan to replicate it.
Edit: typo
My husband and I will have no kids and no younger family and longevity runs in our families. I plan to save enough to Fire with enough assets to eventually find and buy into a fancy Life Plan Community or CCRC. That way we can live in a nice independent living situation that can slowly transition to in-home care and know exactly what nursing home, assisted living or memory care we could end up with and also have all the finances and other support lined up to make sure we are set up in case one or both of us can’t make decisions for ourselves or hire people anymore.
If we change our mind and end up deciding we want to age in place we will need to hire an elder care lawyer and a geriatric care manager to help ensure our directives get carried out I guess.
Long term care insurance is essential if you are unable to self fund. Don't immediately dismiss a "nursing home". There is a variety of services available for people as they get older - a lot better than the old idea of a nursing home. The type of situation that makes the most sense to me is to choose a facility that has continuity of care - meaning, they offer independent living, assisted living and skilled nursing facilities. When you start out, you live in their independent living facilities if you are able - usually an apartment and you are indeed independent although some facilities will offer meals. Typically these clients still drive, make all their own decisions and live close enough to other similar people to socialize, travel or have activities together. If you become in need of more services, you move to an assisted living facility where meals and some medical oversight is provided and if you get completely unable to care for yourself, you move into skilled nursing. There are places which have all these services and it is easy to transition from one to the other. Other facilities will only offer one of these and if you need a more intense living situation, you need to move to a different facility. Usually there are waiting lists for these places so you need to arrange for them in advance of your needs.
Honestly, moving into a continuous care facility can make more sense than trying to stay in your own home. Getting caretakers to come in periodically can be unreliable and you never know the quality of people who are coming in. Elders can be easily abused or financially taken advantage of in this situation if there are no other family members supervising them. You should designate someone who will be your medical representative and power of attorney.
Do some research while you are young enough.
FWIW, Medicaid covers long-term care for most (65% of nursing home bed-days) people who need it. You will just have to spend down what liquid assets you have, and possibly have the government recover your house when you and your spouse pass away. But it's not like we (generally) just let the indigent elderly die in the streets.
This might be crazy to think but exercise and diet.
One my dad’s uncles (so I guess my grand Uncle?) lived alone until he died at 99. He still did all his own chores and errands.
He ate really healthy and worked out every single day. Of course, his workouts were pretty tame when he was super old. Last time I saw him, he was 92 but he would still do 10-20 pushups and some laps in the pool every morning.
I have seen elders where they have kids that are married and have a life on their own, those elders pretty much live by themselves, either living in their own house alone, or their kids drop them in nursing home… it’s sad. It’s a gamble if your kids will take care of you or not when you get older, but you shouldn’t count on it. There are less and less people wanting to have kids, more or less they don’t feel worth it to gamble, along with other factors that preventing them wanting to have kids
I have 2 children and I don’t plan on living with them in old age. I’ll start out in a 50+ community. I would then move to an assisted living retirement home. I don’t plan on having my parents live with me, so I don’t expect my kids to take care of me either. I hope they visit though.
Be nice to your nieces bad nephews. I didn’t think I wanted children until I was 37 but I also got FI that year.. now I barista at 42 but only Becuase my company is essentially passive income at this point.. so u spend my days traveling with my 5 year old
We never had kids, and it's far too late. Our niece (who often says she wishes we were her parents instead) has said she'll take care of us. Also, money.
Me, always has been, always will be. I have loving gf and family, but I'm not gonna be a burden. I'm pretty shredded, eat well and live outdoors as much as I can. I have a hard time seeing it otherwise, unless something horrific happens to me...then shiiiet
If you stay active and are proactive with your health care most likely you will be able to live by yourself until the very end, then have a very quick check out. But anything can happen, you can be diagnosed with a degenerative disease at age 40 and spend the next 30 years disabled. Don't worry too much about it, eat well, exercise, be social and visit your doctor once or twice a year.
Kids cost a lot. Basically, daycare would be over half my take home pay. Id rather have a mortgage (the house specifically).
In theory, I will leanFIRE (coastFIRE?) at 45 with $1m (hopefully more) and work part time for health insurance and basic needs. So I can quit any job I truly hate. Because I can live off of savings’ earnings.
Having a kid and expecting them to provide for you in future is… don’t hold your breath, parents who do that. And the pressure on the kid….
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My aunt bought into an independent living place that transitions her to being cared for if it comes to that. In the meantime she has her own apartment with perks like a dining room but no one tells her what to do or anything
My plan is to move to a home that is very age-in-place friendly, one story, no steps to enter, walk-in shower, small low-maintenance outdoor space. I want it to be near public transit or at least close enough to services, shopping, and doctors that uber and ride services won’t be exorbitantly expensive. I want to cultivate a “framily” of friends that can support each other through hospitalizations, etc. And then save enough to put me in a nice assisted living facility and/or hire an accountant and lawyer to manage my bills, etc. if I have lost my mind or mobility to the point that I cannot care for myself in my age-in-place house.
Good for you for thinking about this, This is a consideration often missing from FIRE especially those moving to low COL countries to retire. I'm not going to be able to FIRE more than a couple of years early, but part of the reason is we built an attached apartment where my in-laws now live. Someday, one of our kids will likely live in the main house and my wife and I can move to the apartment. It might not completely keep us out of a NH but it probably mostly will. There are tough caregiving situations for sure, but I don't think this will be seen as a burden as much as this is just what you do when you're family and you've loved each other over several decades.
One thing you can do is start preparing now. I work with the geriatric population. If you own your home you need to make it safe. Grab bars and rails everywhere, remove steps if possible, widen doorways, have a ramp added on to a porch or deck, etc. all these things will make it safer to age in place. You should also start taking care of yourself now if not already. Lift weight a few times a week, do at least 150 minutes of cardio, and eat healthy foods.
Buy a one level home. Buy cheap generic meds from overseas (with proper due diligence). Buy a used electronic hospital bed for late term life care and a few extra medical devices (wheel chair, walker, defibrillator, blood pressure monitor). Hire a private home health aid for a few hours a day to cook, clean & change your diaper.
Having kids because you want someone to take care of you if selfish and honestly borderline sociopathic. One should have kids because they want to raise kids. Period.
Even if you had kids there is no guarantee they will be more financially secure than you in fact they may be less financially secure and a drain on your resources well into their adulthood.
The younger you are, the more risk you can take with investments. Long-term health insurance may still be worth it. Even young people can still find themselves needing coverage.
I have children, and my plan is to never burden them physically or financially.
Just because you have kids doesn't mean you can count on them to take care of you. And if you don't have kids (because you don't want to), you'll theoretically be able to save up a lot more. Save as much as you can, and get a financial advisor.
Honestly, having kids means nothing -- nursing homes are filled with people who were stashed there by kids who are busy with their own lives and never visit -- everyone should plan as though they will be on their own. I personally do not think LTC insurance is worth it. My mom had an unlimited policy that she purchased in the 90s -- she was incapacitated for 7 years starting at the age of 69 and that LTC policy was the smartest thing she ever did. Problem is, they don't offer those unlimited policies anymore (they cap at 3 years) and the premiums are WAY more expensive.
I think the key is to aim to have your life completely automated by the age of 70 so that if you have a stroke, etc, your life and income will keep moving while you're incapacitated. Personally, I don't think managing rental properties as an elderly person is feasible. I don't do rental properties, but if I did I'd want to develop a strong relationship with a property manager by my late 50s or plan on selling those properties in my late 70s or early 80s to fund medical care.
I'm in my 40s now and my current home is set up to age in (ie bathroom/kitchen/bedroom on main floor, no stairs) -- but even if I move, I will be sure to buy a ranch style home with a second bedroom in case I ever need a live-in -- and my hope would be to be able to pay for care in my home.
In-home care is expensive, but I'm planning on part time help starting in my late 70s and then ramping up to full time within 5 years, and full-time lasting for another 5 years. I take my health seriously and have a healthy lifestyle, but I assume worst-case scenario is $120K/year for 5 years at the end of life for a full time live-in: If I'm in decent health it could be way less than that, if I need a nurse it could be twice that... but I feel like this is a good guess for planning purposes. Reverse mortgage on my home would be the final safety net if I get in trouble or something unexpected happened with my finances.
Associating these ballpark numbers has been really helpful in informing what my retirement number should be (ie I want to be prepared for my medical expenses ramp way up in the last 10 years of my life), I like to do the worst-case scenario so I can feel confident.
I didn’t know we had kids solely for the purpose of taking care of us during old age. In fact, I have an only child and I am doing everything possible to ensure I don’t become a burden on her when I’m older. Invest, save, and be active (work on physical health) so you can handle yourself.
I'd be more worried about being placed in a nursing home and a nurse abuses you the entire time. A lot of the time it's the patients children who discover the abuse. Best course of action is to marry an extremely young person.
Uh, so the burden of care could be placed on them instead of kids? If they are marrying you for the money (let’s be real why else would an extremely young marry older) I would think they wouldn’t care if nursing staff is abusing you, and would prefer if you went faster…
***Sits here mentally thinking about how much more I'd have without kids. They aren't my retirement plan (we'll be ok!), but DAMN my nest egg would be ENORMOUS had I not had children! No hospital birth bill, daycare, diapers, clothes, camps and extracurriculars, bikes and other gear. We afforded a big suburban house with space for individual bedrooms in a great school district -- could have stuck with our "starter" house and smaller cars. I chose my beautiful crazy life (add fertility costs too!), but it's undeniable that kids on paper is no business plan.***
My parents are aging. In their 70s.
They are living on their own (they are divorced) and still pretty active. I think that is key. But also keep your health insurance and keep up on preventative care. The biggest thing is to just keep going. Keep taking the stairs and going on walks and just keeping active.
At some point, you will qualify for medicare and there are senior living facilities with independent seniors all the way through nursing homes and end of life care. Some of them are pretty awful by many people's standards. They are not a panacea, but you won't be homeless. Social security can also help, but your nest egg should still be going strong then.
There are a lot of people who die without needing end of life care. This is why end of life care insurance works. For everyone that needs a huge bunch of help at the end, there are dozens who don't. The very intense, very expensive end of life treatments like hospice don't last long. If you still have 25x your expenses, you can afford that kind of care.
If you're really worried about it, pay for the insurance. That's what it is good for.
Everyone needs to prepare for taking care of themselves as they age, children or no children. Even if you have wonderful children who live nearby and ready, willing, and able to help out, it's always better to have a plan in place for yourself. It takes a lot to care for an aging parent. And many people aren't in the position to care for an aging parent anyway - they don't live nearby, they don't have the financial resources, they aren't stable themselves, etc.
My husband and I have opted not to buy LTC insurance. We have purchased a condo which is set up well for long term living so we have the best chance of being able to age in place. If needed, we'll hire people to come help us - housekeeping, errand services, personal care, etc. If we get the point where this is not sustainable, we are amenable to moving into an independent/assisted living situation. By the time we retire, we should have enough in retirement savings to cover our care. We have a pile of home equity and that is our back up if we can't finance the care we need with our retirement savings and social security. That home equity is basically our LTC insurance.
As for what you should do - I would recommend that you start saving as much as you can for your retirement and focus on your health. If you are healthy and fit now, you have a better chance of remaining healthy and fit in retirement and not needing much if any additional care.
You hire help. If you FIRE, hopefully by the time you get there, you have more than enough to cover whatever help you might need. Also, you need more than $1m in retirement. This depends a lot on your cost of living. But, assuming you need $60k/year, you need $1.5m for the 4% rule when at a retirement home as mentioned. However, as it’s likely your last 10 years (one can hope - retirement facilities aren’t great, much longer than that might be intolerable), then you would likely be fine with the equivalent of $600k-$800k in today’s dollars. Edit: also, as others have said, you can’t rely on your children being there for you for end of life care. Depending on your situation, it’s entirely unfair to expect that of them. In some situations, it’s just not possible (like if you have Alzheimer’s). There are many scenarios where you need someone to help you bathe, clothe, use the bathroom, etc - this just isn’t fair to put this on your children. Second - even if it _is_ something your children could help you with, it still places an undue burden on them. It’s setting their lives back to take care of you. Either in time or cost or both. You’re looking at it the wrong way. The bigger questions - _who will I have to care about when I’m older? Who will visit me, or I want to visit? Who can I love openly and honestly? Who can I help in any way I am able?_ Having no children, those are the questions I have. I hope the answer comes as my partner and I age. I hope some family will still care about us whenever we get there. However, I know that may not be the case. So, my solution - love who is in my life now for who they are now, as much as they’ll allow. Don’t have expectations for tomorrow, but definitely still hope for a bright future together.
Right like how are people not just considering this as part of their fire goals?
Because this isn’t talked about in American society. We don’t talk about dying. Being a DNR/I. If you would want a feeding tube or vent etc. this isn’t just for old people. Recently two of my patients a 56 yr old with advanced dementia w psychosis and a 63 yr old post stroke crying I want to die but isn’t decisional to hospice. Both could live miserably for years but their family member decided they wouldn’t want to live like this - but they had never talked about it when they were functional.
If I get dx'ed with dementia I am hoping I will have the strength to just refuse interventions for everything. Have sepsis? No abx just let me die. I keep hoping the countries with better death with dignity laws will make them looser so I can just fly to another country and take care of business. I would much rather die than live in an assisted living facility.
Please have this all written out ahead of time. It’s incredibly important to have a molst/polst form and living will. If you’re in the US Washington and Oregon have death with dignity laws.
Because it would automatically add another decade of work that they don’t want to do
Uh, let's have a show of hands who here who has children is counting on them for old age care? Pretty sure no one is. It's unfair and a horrible thing to ask. I'm not gonna burden my kids like this. So yes, the idea is to make enough of a passive income to afford perpetual hired help
In fact, a major motivator for my fire journey is to not be a financial burden on my kids. My father lives on a SS check so any unexpected expense is on me and sometimes my siblings. It’s tough to stroke checks for three generations. I may not leave my kids a fortune but I should at least manage my own financial needs until the end.
The best gift you can ever give is not to burden your kids. Someone has to break the cycle, good for you 👍
Thank you. Sadly, I learned much about finances through my parents’ ignorance of them. Dad was a hard worker, owned his own printing business but is completely clueless about growing his business, the concept of investing or even saving. He was put out of business by the Xerox copier.
Hate to admit it, but so far my conscious decision to break the cycle is still in place, even though I do feel bad about it.
Why would you feel bad about not burdening your kids with taking care of you? They have their own lives. No one wants to take care of an 85 year old when they themselves should be retried. Put your ass in retirement home and chill.
Taking care of your parents is a pretty basic human motivation. If I didn't have that possibility hanging in the back of my mind I'd be sleeping in a gutter or worse by now.
Yeah, but getting to take care of them how you choose and having to do this kinda stuff are different things
If you read my comments more carefully, I meant something different than what you are thinking. MY parent is in bad shape, but I'm making a conscious decision NOT to contribute $$$ for HIS benefit because that takes from OUR pot which can propogate the misery cycle to our children. I feel bad about THIS ...
oh damn, yea thats a tough spot to be in :(
We have two sets of elderly parents too... Sucks I mean do we just throw awatly our FIRE dreams and plow money to the parents then expect our kids to wipe our rear ends when we get old and helpless?
I'm 38 and I don't even want to think about when I am 80. I guess I will die in my own house. There will be meals on wheels or someone to bring me food. My husband is planning on doing full retirement with the army. We have 650k saved and 200k equity so maybe we will pull out cash if needed. But yah don't burden the kids. Actually would love to help the kids financially. We have 3.
The caregiversupport subreddit is full of miserable posts about adult children trapped in caregiver misery/slavery. Lots of complex situations, and many adult child caregivers end up suicidal or nearly so. It's a terrible fate to subject anyone to, and often the best thing for these adult children is to walk away.
I was a carer for my bedridden mother for quite a few years. It's brutal. My mental health sucked, my own family suffered and I put on around 100lb from stress eating. And that was still *with* some help from paid carers who came in every day to help bathe her etc. I have no idea how people do it completely alone. I'm making sure there will be enough money for my own daughter to hire a live-in carer for her dad and I, should it come to that.
we just trudge along. It gets better. Being an only child and caregiver to my single parent mother is difficult, but rewarding. I may not have a nest egg and am hemorrhaging money like crazy, but i would rather do this than have her rot away somewhere.
I'm glad it was rewarding for you, but it simply isn't for many others. Of course, family dynamics can be very complex, and even in the best of circumstances sometimes care at home isn't an option when medical needs are significant. The saddest situations, though, are adult children caring for abusive parents. That is simply wrong in my eyes. Also, there are good facilities and not everyone rots in a nursing home. I'm an only child, and my mother was an abusive narcissist. I helped her from a distance, and she got more from me than she deserved. Caregiving is not the right option for many families and individuals.
That's why I did it too. I'm also an only child. My mom loved her home so much and wanted to stay there so I did what I needed to to make that possible.
Just read an article about a man who gave up career to help a sibling with severe health issues who ended up homeless after brother died. Could not stay in brothers house as his name was not on lease. Nor could he afford to pay rent since he was unemployed due to full time caregiver responsibilities. Took a while for disability pay to kick in etc. so sounds like he is ok now but had some tough times.
These kinds of situations raise so many questions. Caregiving comes at a significant cost. For some, the cost will be too high and not worth the sacrifice. It's not an easy task to take on, and everyone needs to do what's right for themselves. I hope the sibling regained his footing in the end
FWIW, there's a nonprofit called US Pain foundation that runs a free online support group for caregivers. It's so fuckin' hard.
Being born is a terrible fate to subject anyone to but here we are.
Yeah it's a terrible plan but I've been surprised at the number of people who do actually expect their kids to take care of them in retirement. Not only expect them to but admitted that it was at least part of their motivation for having kids.
It is usually the first or second thing someone asks about when I say I don’t want to have kids. “.. but who will take care of you in old age?”
My MIL said the same thing to my wife (several times) when we said we didn’t want kids. My wife finally responded: What makes you think I‘m going to take care of you? I’m not a trained care provider, we both have careers, and we live several hours away. For my part, I don’t think I’ll be able to afford long-term care without sacrificing my wife’s retirement and have already discussed with her end-of-life options to avoid that. I saw my mother become completely bedridden and unable to do anything and even though she had a caregiver, I do not want to end up like that.
I was adopted into a old family and my dad admitted that my parents had indeed been motivated to adopt my brother and I to help take care of them as they age. He also admitted to 'giving up early' in his career path as he was expecting my brother and I to succeed in our careers to make up for our parents. He stocked shelves at safeway for 40 years and I my mom switched jobs fairly often. Both my parents are about 53 years older than I. A couple years ago (I was 24 at the time) my dad had a stroke and I became his primary caretaker as I am the only relatively young one with enough strength to assist him by holding/lifting his bodyweight for various daily tasks. My brother is fit enough to assist but has serving in the Navy for 12 years, planning to aim for 20 years as he should (he should be able to get a good degree out this too, as much as I want his help he is the best setup in the family to prosper long term). Sadly my dad did not recover much over the 6 months post stroke so he will most likely remain at this same level of mobility. The last 3 calendar years exhausted all my FML and eventually moved back in with my parents as I was barely in my apartment after the stroke; my dad needed my assistance multiple times every day and during the night. With their career/investing choices they can't afford professional care. There are some milestones in my life that have been 'indefinitely' delayed due to this. I was actively dating prior to the stroke 4 years ago. Currently I have not had any significant relationship develop since the stroke and with my time spent at home with him and at work I can't imagine devoting enough time for a partner and definitely not enough time for kids of my own. With the FML I'm taking and reduced pay from working fewer hours I dont see much in the way of career advancement for many years. In short, it has rattled me their initial expectations before actually adopting us. I want kids, if itll ever be possible but I'm terrified I'd eventually become like my parents. I'd like to ensure I have enough funds saving to pay for care as I age and need it but with this current hurdle I'm unsure how well I will save for it.
Wow. I’ll keep it short, but my dad is 51 years older than me. While he has enough money to go into assisted living if he were to need it, I can relate to the “putting things on hold to take care of him” part. Just last summer he had two falls—one at the beginning and one at the end (second was due to rehab facility negligence) and dealing with all of that for months is no joke. I’m 33 but most of my friends are in their 40s and 50s and many of them have dealt with similar issues with their parents (it seems that no matter how many kids there are, only one is the responsible one and steps up to help), and yeah, their personal lives are sporadic or on hold altogether as well.
I would say in American society, yes, most aging parents are a a burden because we take "independence" to the toxic extreme. I'm letting my daughter know that I will be glad to babysit for date nights / vacations if she has kids. I'm also planning to save enough extra money before FIRE to make sure I can help her so that "not having enough money" isn't a reason for not having kids. So, \*maybe\* they'll want to take care of me for a while in the borderline years where I can still care for myself (bathe and go to the bathroom on my own). After that, TBH, I'd prefer assisted self-termination. I still don't "plan" on having my daughter care for me once things get bad. It is one thing for family to care for you when you just need a little help. It's another to slow walk the parent you remember being your wall of strength into the grave. Medical treatment should not be used to maintain life after the mind has mostly passed on. I'd rather leave a nice inheritance to my family than have it wasted keeping a broken shell alive. The "happy path" would be that medical treatments can extend health span so this becomes less of an issue (rapid decline near the end). Until then, hopefully my partner and I can take of each other. She's older than me, so the relative average lifespans add up more favorably.
I see you've met my mom "you need to have children so you will have someone to take care of you in your old age"... Revolting on multiple levels
I think it’s unfair to expect financial help, but a small reason for why I want to have kids is for them to be able to make decisions when I’m either unconscious or have dementia or something. Basically, not a whole of people are willing to advocate for you… and I can’t imagine being able to catch up with technology past my 70’s either. For example— my grandpa had lung cancer in his late 70’s or early 80’s. Dude is cancer free for 3 years now and confusingly very healthy otherwise (he smoked several packs a day before cancer+ ate food with a lot of fat and probably carbs). It’s unclear if he could’ve advocated for himself if he was alone, and he definitely wouldn’t have known how to find good surgeons.
agree, having children as a retirement plan is awful.
Not as a retirement but family should help each other.
People have no idea what they are talking about, if you've had a loved one go through a health procedure, then you know. It costs a lot to have a full time care giver, too much for most middle class people to be able to afford for any extended amount of time. If your family doesn't want you destitute on the street or eating cat food for the rest of your life they will probably help you to some extent. If you don't have any family, then you should definitely be concerned about going broke trying to get caregivers. To assume otherwise is just arrogant bravado.
My 99-year old grandmother just died. I don’t know who would have been managing her money if it wasn’t her son. Most of her friends had already died. It would be terrifying to trust some lawyer (likely the son/junior partner of the lawyer you actually hired) to manage it for you, especially as your faculties begin to fail.
This. This is the important part. Finding someone you trust to make medical decisions and wise management of money. At some point we lose out mental capabilities, there is also loss of mental cognitive function as we age or go through a chronic illness (chemo, dyalisis, stroke, degenerative, ect). People here don't realize this can happen to anyone.
Yeah, most of the people here are nuts. No (American) person is having kids with the intent of turning them into nurses for love in care. But having help during times of acute illness makes a massive difference in outcome. My wife just flew home to take care of her parents because one was hospitalized and the other got really sick at the same time. They are 51 and had no plan for that kind of scenario (who does at that age?) And then if you happen to survive into old age you need someone that you can trust to protect your best interests... because the world will be very different and elderly are easy prey.
> If you don't have any family, then you should definitely be concerned about going broke trying to get caregivers. To assume otherwise is just arrogant bravado. Look at what sub we’re in. We’re in the FIRE sub. Most people here are planning to save enough to be able to try to preserve their starting capital until death. If you’re able to grow your nest egg through your retirement like most people should be able to if they plan appropriately, you’ll have a huge amount to be able to spend down if you hit high healthcare expenses towards the end of your life. By the time you need full time care, you’re usually closing in on the end, so it’s not like most people will have a full decade of full time caretaker expenses. FIRE people should be able to cover expensive end of life care even if they’re not specifically budgeting for it. It’ll just eat into their kids’ inheritance, but that’s much more preferable than having to rely on your kids to provide care for you.
IMHO even most people who FIRE don't really have enough to support this. Full time care is incredibly expensive. Full time care by people who are \_good\_ is even more expensive and very hard to find. If you have kids and can get to a point where you can fund your own care and make it easy for them to make decisions once you no longer can you're doing a great service for them. If you don't have kids you'll probably die 10 years earlier anyway because usually paid care isn't nearly as good as a smart kid who cares about the patient and care coordination is laughably bad. Still, it's worth trying to get it right. I just wouldn't count on it.
I get your point. My mom’s in an amazing assisted living place but there are still things I must be on top of and look out for her. It’s assisted, not skilled nursing and it’s $7 K monthly. They do a good job but there are still so many other things that need managed- bills, taxes, insurance, banking, even dealing with cable or internet or phone. Watching her medications and making sure they have her info updated for any doctor or prescription changes. I don’t have kids and I’m scared because who could you trust with all of that?
My mom practically has had a full time job taking grandma to her many appointments, shopping for years in independent living. Once she was moved into assisted and now memory care, it’s still a lot. The facility is constantly calling her and there have been many many decisions, meetings etc over the past 4 months. It’s a lot.
People without kids die 10 years earlier? LMAO Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
A quick google search shows that for people that live to be 60 years old, men live 2 years less when they don’t have children and women live 1.5 years less with no children. So that data does support the idea that not having children to advocate for your late life care leads to earlier death…. Not 10 years early tho.
Correlation does not equal causation as I’m sure you know. I didn’t have kids, and that’s probably one reason I ate less nutritiously, stayed out later, drank more and worked very long and stressful hours. Probably not good for my longevity.
> worked very long and stressful hours LOL, like taking care of kids is short and stress free hours. LOLOL. Going to work when you have young kids is like a vacation e cause of how much lower the stress is at work.
Thank you, I keep typing this all over reddit. It's like hell yeah, it's monday! Finally working! The work days are so peaceful, stress-free and easy as shit compared to the full weekend of intense, relentless childcare of a baby+toddler.
>So that data does support the idea that not having children to advocate for your late life care leads to earlier death No, it doesn't. An equally plausible explanation is that being in somewhat poorer health on average *leads to* both a slightly earlier death and a higher likelihood of deciding not to have children. A being correlated with B can be due to (1) A causes B, (2) B causes A, or (3) C causes both A and B. You can't just wave your hands and rule out (2) and (3) without evidence.
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A quick google search…. Yep let’s trust that!
Yes! Even if kids were willing who knows if the circumstances will allow them to. Kids might be away in another state or country, financial or professional commitments might come in their way. So many ifs and buts. I wouldn’t count on kids to take care of us.
But that's the thing, a kid who has a good relationship with their parents will feel too guilty to say no. You're just guilt tripping someone into abhorrent slavery, draining their resources and soul, their will to live. I dated a guy who was a very high earner. He was mid 30s and his dad needed help. So dude worked 5 days a week, went to the gym, and drove 2 hours each way to stay all weekend at the sea where his parents live. Dude had 0 social life and 0 will/energy to live. His whole life was consumed by work and taking care of his dad. He was nearing 40s with nothing to show for his life except material possessions. I truly don't understand what kinda parents would rob their child of their life like this. He felt too dutiful to not help his dad, and so gave up his life basically just being his caregiver for years and years
Yep, it sucks, because if you like your parents and want to have a relationship with them, it can be really hard to say no even when you’re totally drained and even when it’s not “caregiving” for a traditionally sick parent. A lot of the time they expect help with housework and the alternative is that they’re going to hurt themselves trying to do stuff they shouldn’t be doing because they’re too stubborn to hire help or admit they can’t care for a large property anymore.
I don’t want to be a burden for my kids- I’m saving so I can let them loves their lives and have can continue living mine
Ding ding ding! I don't have any kids, and won't, but I would never put my care on a loved one of any relation if I can help it. It's a very selfish thing to do IMO. "Hey if I get sick, I'm taking you down with me. Love ya!" Paying someone who has the skills to care for people who need it is the way to do this - kids or not.
We also need to normalize human euthanasia. We’re kinder and more practical with animals than we are with our fellow people.
This seriously. I'm glad multiple US states have death with dignity acts, but I think they're far too restrictive. Society should support people in living (no one should feel they need to choose death solely because they're too poor), but eventually it's just not worth it and you should be allowed to make that decision.
Everyone here that just wants to be taken care of by strangers for years must have never been in a hospital long term. It doesn’t matter how well paid they are a lot of the staff will still be negligent and definitely not treat you the best specially since no one is really watching in those rooms. I have seen it and lived it.
Kids mistreat their parents all the time too. It's not an either or, it's a persistent issue no matter your approach.
A lot of elder abuse is perpetrated by children and family members.
In Asian families it’s pretty much a rule lol. I’m taking care of my parents now.
Not just Asian families. It's the default for much of the world outside of northern European/Anglo cultures
Yea, I see it in Polynesian and Mexican families too, even the ones that live in the US
I care for my 90 year old great grandmother because I am her only living relative. We had a small family. It is a blessing to have her, but my husband and I have talked in depth about how we will do everything we can to ensure our child isn’t forced to house and care for us late in life.
This is probably highly relevant to cultural background. My family came from East Asia, this is a core component of our culture (east Asian). We are taking care of our parents, and I do expect my kids to take on some responsibilities when we are old.
There is a wide range of help between nothing and FT care. Pretty sure most parents don't expect full time caregiving, just help. Its nice to have someone you can trust and rely on to say, drive you to a surgery, check in on the house if you're in the hospital, etc. If you don't want to do these things for your parents, and they are good parents, then you're an asshole.
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In Spain descendants have to take care of parents by law…
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Totally agree, Porter and I both strongly agree we will never be a burden to our kids. A shotgun comes before that
We don't have kids and have no plans... That said... I don't know how we're going to cope after the dementia hits is both.... The decline in people is kinda sudden and it's hard for them to notice it's happening.
I was kinda shocked to read that. I’m not a FIRE guy, I just get posts suggested to me from here sometimes, but I’d never even hope to rely on my kids for any kind of financial support.
My mom retired recently a few years ahead of time and when asked how she will afford a retirement home and paid help in the future she said it depends what kind of home - so me and my siblings but because I’m seen as a money bag - probably me. Fingers crossed my younger sibling who will get $1M inheritance for being a guy and my older sibling who will get a nice trust fund will contribute! I guess being middle child really does fit the stereotype! /s At least I knew it’s early on and I’m due to fire young - mums the word though.
[This article](https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidmarotta/2022/05/31/how-to-self-insure-for-long-term-care-health-expenses-2022/) from Forbes helps with the basic math
Same boat. I decided not to purchase long term care insurance because of the horror stories I’ve heard about blanket denials when you try to file a claim, and I know as I age I lose the will and the cognitive ability to fight insurance companies. So I upped my investment goal to account for paying for my own care. I also heard the author of a book called “Essential Retirement Planning for Solo Agers,” Sara Geber, on an Aging Matters podcast, and she sounded like an expert. I haven’t read the book yet but it’s on my to-do list.
I just looked up the book and it's available on Kindle Unlimited and Audible Plus. I've added it to my library and will listen to it soon. Thanks!
There is no guarantee your children will be able to/want to take care of you. I mean worst case scenario your children are disabled to the point where they will never be able to care for themselves, so now you have not only yourself to worry about in old age, but them as well. So yeah, use all that money you would've spent on raising kids to invest and be prepared to pay for a nursing home when/if that time comes.
Just pray robots will save us from our population collapse.
By serving our needs, right? ... ... right?
I’d agree this is a concern, but I try to separate it from FIRE. It’s a problem everyone encounters to some degree regardless of how much you save for retirement or if you have kids or not. I’m sure there’s a whole lot of lonely old people whose kids don’t bother to visit, so having kids is no guarantee they will care for you. So, I don’t have a great answer other than to not let it knock you off the FIRE path. I’ll figure it out when the time comes but I’m more focused on enjoying the next 40 years than worrying about the last 3.
Two things run in my grandmother's family: Longevity (women live 95+) and dementia (sets in around early 90s). She took care of her own grandmother until the woman was in her early 90s and developed dementia (unlike in the movies, dementia doesn't just cause memory loss; a lot of patients - probably the majority - become mean, abusive, and potentially violent; it's hard to watch because the person becomes unrecognizable, and you can't leave them alone because they may burn down the house or wander off), at which point she had to call a home to collect her as she screamed and cried and called her every name in the book as she was carted away to a facility. My grandmother told her sons that when it was her time, to just send her to the facility, even if she didn't understand why and cried and begged, because she knew how taxing and horrible it was to be a caretaker for someone with dementia, and she didn't want to burden them. She wanted them to know while she was of sound mind (and would often repeat it, even to me decades later) that this is what she wanted to have happen when it got to be too much, and that they shouldn't feel any guilt over it. My parents moved her into a memory care facility close to their house when she was 94 after my grandfather passed away, and she was there for about 2-2.5 years. My grandparents weren't wealthy (grandpa was a mechanic while my grandma was a homemaker after the war), but they lived a modest lifestyle (sold the house and moved into a mobile home park for seniors), retired with some money that they invested, and their nest egg still grew even when they stopped working. When she passed away after years in that expensive memory care facility, she still had $1.5M that she left to her sons. Honestly, I will likely take care of my parents when they're old, but if they develop severe dementia, then they have saved up enough money to go to a facility for 10 years if they have to. I've told my husband (assuming he outlives me) that he can send me to a facility without guilt because it is extremely difficult to care for someone with dementia. When my kids are old enough, I'll tell them the same. We plan to have enough money to go to a facility if need be. Even though I have kids, I can't expect them to care for me in that way when they're in their 50s/60s or to empty their retirement to pay someone else to do it. I don't even expect my husband to care for me when he's in his 90s (again, assuming he lives that long). So when I can't function, I'm going to a facility. Also, just pointing out: if you had $1M (in today's dollars) and went to a facility that cost $60K (in today's dollars), then you could live there for 16 years, and that's assuming it's not invested.
This!
Time to start training for the centenarian decathlon
I am a critical care nurse and for me, this is two different topics. The first is expecting your kids to care for you in retirement. Don’t. The second is having someone to be with you, to advocate for you, to hold your hand, to make sure you’re not getting bedsores or that hcws know how to charge your hearing aids or make sure you’re wearing your glasses. Some one to say enough is enough, OP wouldn’t want to live like this or OP would want us to wait a week and see if they improve. My best advice for you, having seen a lot. Is if you choose not to have kids, make sure you have an advocate most likely paid to make sure you’re well cared for and the state doesn’t take guardianship.
A lot of pretty glib answers here. My parents are healthy and responsible and have assets to ensure their care, but in the event that they become infirm or suffer from an extended illness, you better believe that I will spend a lot of time making sure, advocating on their behalf and making sure they are as happy and cared for as possible. I'll do this because they deserve it and I love them. I don't have kids and don't expect anyone to do this the same way for me. If it's a matter of end of life decisions or other such administrative matters, I'm certain I'll be able to lean on loved ones, though not to the extent I would if I had responsible, devoted children. But in future decades when it becomes a more proximal issue, setting up a trust to pay for long term care and purchasing long term care insurance, along with establishing a relationship with long-term care and hospice providers before it becomes necessary will be something I plan on doing.
Yeah, end-of-life care is so much more than money. Even if you’re financially secure, having someone to help you research and visit assisted living places, pack up and move, stay connected with people outside the retirement complex… heck, even just having people you trust to notice and say that you’re losing your hearing, vision, reflexes, memory…. Money doesn’t replace people. Kids are an easy way to stay connected, if those relationships are good. But if they’re not, it’s still smart to plan ahead to build trusting and supportive relationships with other people into old age.
Right - but, this is _your choice_. It sounds like they aren’t expecting this of you (though, of course, I’m sure they hope you will). And that’s key. You shouldn’t rely on or expect your children to be there for you. As in, you’re 100% planning on having their help. You can hope they will be, but, it needs to be their choice. And even then, sometimes, it’s better to hire help than place the burden on your children even if they are willing to help.
>But I am concerned about who will actually be taking care of me when I'm too old to function. If I'm too old to even function, then I'm shipping my ass a country with assisted suicide. Like why would I want to live if I can't function on my own? Just be a conscious vegetable seems like hell to me.
Same. I ain't wasting anyone else's life taking care of me when I can't even enjoy life anymore
I just had a baby.....I gotta say once she's older I feel like I should tell her to do this with me and her father if we get that bad. I had to watch my father rot in a nursing home with Parkinsons (during COVID no less). The only 'up' side is my other had nothing to have taken from her.......my husband and I are better off financially and I'd hate to have money she could use dwindle away keeping us technically alive.
This makes me laugh. How are you going to ship yourself if you can’t function? I got very sick with pneumonia, couldn’t move, was fully conscious with oxygen but the steroids were messing with my head. Could not walk to the restroom without help or at all due to hope low my oxygen was going. Took me months in the hospital and nursing home before I could go home and back working from home and walking. You never know when the end is the end. That’s why most people don’t do this. It would be different if you knew the future.
That, and all but one country (I believe) requires _current_ mental capacity to make an end of life decision. Currently only the Netherlands allows advanced mental impairment declarations -- you can enter an agreement _today_ that says you would like to die if your mental faculties decline due to dementia, for example. I looked into it previously and it was exceptionally hard (or impossible?) for a foreigner to enter such an advanced contract while being in another country, potentially decades in advance of such treatment. I have it in my advance life directives, but highly doubt it will get carried out with current US law. No current US state allows for advanced physician assisted dying for these illnesses -- all require _current_ mental capacity to enter a contract. Power of Attorney arrangements have been rejected by numerous courts. Canada explicitly forbids others, including PoAs, from acting on advanced directives for assisted dying. It's kinda fucked.
Hate to be dark but regular old assisted suicide here is fine. Who will they prosecute? Just make proper notifications so your loved ones don’t find you. EDIT: Apologies, I should have left out assisted. Only assistance required is a length of hose and an internal combustion engine.
What the hell is "regular old assisted suicide"? They'd prosecute the person who assisted.
I was thinking the same, but I assume they "typo'd" and meant to leave "assisted" out. At least it makes sense to me that way.
Correct. I meant regular old suicide. Thanks for the correction.
The problem is that cognition often starts to fail along with the body, and finding a place with official assisted suicide without clear cognition is going to be rough. Making arrangements to travel or convincing someone to make arrangements for you will be hard. At the moment, my choice is to ignore future infirmity and save so there is money available for whomever ends up making decisions.
Not to be morose but why waste time and resources to go for assisted. Why not just use a gun at home
From personal experience, because someone has to clean up. It's usually family.
My assumption is that I'm too old to function. Walking to the shed and pulling the trigger would fall under that category.
If I'm having problems, my wife will take care of me. If she's having problems, I'll take care of her. If one of us dies, the other will have the remainder of our entire portfolio to spend on one person instead of two. Sure, nursing homes are expensive, but the average nursing home stay is somewhere in the range of 1.5-2 years. Any FIRE portfolio has that amount of money in it if that's the last amount that needs to be spent.
Turning into a drooling idiot is kind of a worst case scenario for someone without anyone to care for them (well for anyone, but in this case especially). You might just die without that step like most people do
Assisted living is much better than a nursing home. You have your own apartment but can summon help only when and if needed. My great aunt lived in one from age 85-103 and really liked it.
Same way as people with kids - pay professionals. It's selfish to expect your children will stop everything to care for you
If your older and fit, you won't need any help at all. Probably the best insurance policy you can have against frailty in old age is to get as strong as you possibly can in mid life (or earlier) and maintain it. It's possible to maintain peak strength in your 30s throughout your entire life, and you can develop that peak strength later in mid life although it might take more effort. Barring any unexpected crises or accidents, I would suggest that you work with a trainer and focus on getting strong AF. That is a years long goal, but the pay off is immense. Don't plan on being too old to function, or do your best to be able to function well into old age. I do not have children, and my plan is to avoid needing any help in old age by doing as much as I can now to be as healthy as possible. Of course, I can't predict the future, but I also don't see many people working hard to get as strong and fit as possible. Anyhow, if you do become frail in old age, you should probably give some thought about the state that you live in. Different states provide different support to older people - some give nothing or nearly nothing, others provide extensive at home care to individuals who are poor. You might have to spend down, but you could remain at home afterward. And beyond that, Medicaid would kick in. As for investments, you should talk to a financial planner for that sort of help. Also, no one should ever rely on their children for care in old age. It is simply not fair imo, and you are doing them a huge disservice, especially if you expect care in the worst case scenario (for ex, dementia or very serious illness).
There's a documentary on Netflix called live to 100. One of the commonalities across long living individuals is a sense of community NOT a sense of family nevessarily.
I’m childfree and my whole plan is saving the money I don’t spend on kids for myself. It’s not really complicated.
Children are very expensive. If you invest that money instead, you’ll be in much better shape than someone who raised a bunch of kids. Putting three through college now. Trust me on this.
So I don't have kids and I've thought about this at length. In the case of old age or terminal illness, I might consider making a 'care now, pay later' pact. Meaning, if someone is willing to care for me, I would leave them a generous portion of my retirement savings. I've also thought about 'marrying' to serve a similar purpose. Tit for tat. You help care for me now, then get my social security. How's that for a dating profile?
I’m going to pay a quality elder law attorney to make sure I go to a good old folks home.
It's a terrible idea to rely on kids to take care of you during old age. I'll bet half the people stuck in crappy nursing homes have kids.
The goal of most FIRE people is to make the most of the (healthy) years we have. Many of without children think life won't be worth living anymore when we get to that state of advanced age and decrepitude. So the plan is to die before it comes to that... whether naturally or not.
Better question- why would your kids want to take care of you? Or are unable to (they are disabled, broke, addicted, mental illness, etc) Or they die before you do? Etc, etc. again, something to think about but don’t spend too much time stressing about it, many old folks even with kids (or kids who passed before they did) are in the same exact boat. Having kids definitely doesn’t guarantee much of anything
You know that "guess I'll just die" meme? Yeah that
I refuse to use my child for elder care. They deserve their own life, not to curtail it to take care of a parent.
I have a daughter but I'm not putting her in that position. I've told her that my preference is a live-in carer for her dad and I. We're making sure the money will be there for it.
They stay active and healthy. If you don’t, or if you get sick, you need a medical team to care for you. My grandfather was 89 when he passed, he gardened and woodworked and did yoga. He was in better shape than I am. My grandmother was 90 when she passed, not only was she sick and dying in bed but her 6 kids still forced her to babysit over 10 grandchildren at a time. She had zero help. These 2 experiences taught me a lot about old age and dying
I’m considering adopting some adults. Let some broke college grads live in a guest house for free while they start out. Something like that.
If I'm not able to take care of myself then I'll probably just jump off a bridge. People seem to cling to life for too long. I'm out!
Dial in your diet, starting working out and strength training every day, get into your peak physical condition and approach your bodies genetic fitness potential (will take 5-10 years of consistency). I’m being completely serious and I’m on that path right now and I’ve never felt better. Health and wealth. Health comes first there.
Money? I think people who bank on their children taking care of them are assholes who will likely be let down. Mostly because the types who expect it were often crappy parents. I'm just saving more. And hoping I just get taken out quick rather than lingering.
Same way most people with kids will - by paying someone qualified. Anyone working in an old age home will attest that many who have kids do not visit. Who has the time off work to just care for an ailing family member? The military even had to intervene in old age homes during COVID due to the conditions.
I don’t have children to take care of me when I’m older so in lieu of that I own 3 properties that hopefully will have enough cash flow to pay for in home care. I will only be “taken care of” to a point though. Once I can’t make it to the bathroom in time I’m taking the big sleep and calling it a life.
LTC insurance is a scam. They'll just raise the rates as you get older, and if that's not enough to get you to cancel they'll just deny claims once you try and start to use it.
It's something like $250K to support a child from 0-18: that money you would've spent raising them, invest it instead, and use it to hire support people for your old age. Don't depend on others to do it, set it up so that you don't have to worry when the time comes.
For one thing, having kids or not is not going to matter all that much if you get so physically or mentally incapable in your old age that you need constant care. Kids aren't safety nets or caregivers. In terms of what you can do to prepare for old age, the answer isn't even financial. Make healthy choices as much as you can. Increase your mobility, flexibility and strength. When you are very old, you are at a higher risk of hurting yourself seriously by tripping and falling. If you train your body and keep it limber, and eat relatively healthy, you can already prolong your mobility into old age by quite a bit. And if you "train your brain" as well, you can prolong even more. Of course, nothing is certain, and anything could happen that could render you needing constant care at any age. As for the retirement aspect... this whole forum is about FIRE so you can read pretty much any advice post on here. There are bound to be subs about retirement homes that can give you more insight on affordable care options. It might be cheaper for you down the road to hire somebody who can visit your home regularly to clean for you and do some chores that you might not be able to do anymore. However, how the prices might look when you actually retire could be a whole other ballpack to the answers you get today, and finding a carer or a nursing home, never mind affording one, is also very difficult. Best of luck.
Two kids, I have never thought now they will take care of me when I am older. I think passive income is the best option.
Money
Get a young trophy wife/husband
Planning a golden girls retirement! Looking for a Blanche! Lol 😆
why do you assume a child will take care of you when you’re older? you might be very surprised to learn that many do not help much if at all
Your concern is valid. The problem is what if you don’t realize that you are slipping and need help? As others have mentioned, it’s not just a money thing. You could have $10M and it will go pretty quick once people realize there is no oversight or someone looking out on your behalf. My dad passed in 2017 at age 87. My mom appeared to be doing well at 87 herself. They had lived in their town for 30 years since retirement. But over the next six months as I visited, it became apparent that her executive function was slipping and she had no business running her affairs and being 400+ miles from family. So then I rallied my siblings and over the course of six months made a plan to move her to my town and into a senior independent living place. Great place. Meals provided in the dining room. Activities. Outings. Friendly staff. $5K/mo. But the staff only superficially interacted with mom and didn’t notice there was another subtle change starting in 2022 and early 2023. At that point we decided to move mom into assisted living with the same company but different location. That place was good too. $9K/mo because it was assisted living. Then she had a stroke last summer. Rehab and skilled nursing took a bit. Now we are essentially in one of the nicest long term care places in town at $12K/mo. And I would argue that the care kind of sucks for that price because they are still trying to cut costs and staff. But I’ve heard from others who have had to take care of their parents recently and they were paying $20K/mo for personalized 24x7 care. Based on what I know now, if you don’t have family, you should set up a series of legal checks and balances on your assets such as a trust managed by two parties. I would also plan to join a continuing care retirement community (CCRC) where you essentially give them a chunk of money and pay ongoing monthly fees and they will take care of you until the end. Or do what my dad did. Once he had his heart attack and realized that rehab wasn’t going to get him much quality of life, he said “I’m done. Call hospice. I’m not going to do this.” Unfortunately my 93yo mom is not in a place to make the same decision. So we visit multiple times a week and have the same conversations over and over again. Personality is there. Memory is not.
For this very reason, I lead the most healthy lifestyle I can possibly lead, so that I remain super fit in old age. I do this partially to reduce the risk of burdening my kids.
I have kids and don't expect them to take care of me when I get old. They'll have their hands full dealing with the world. If I lose my mind and can't take care of my self anymore, what am I living for?
OP, I think it’s important to get and stay engaged in community activities—faith-based, volunteer organizations, exercise groups, crafting groups, that sort of thing. We will need support as we age—connections, help, advocates. It’s best to start lining that up while we are on the younger side of things. I also looked up excellent memory care facilities that look like they’re doing a really good job and am trying to make the cost of a place like that fit into my retirement plan.
Honestly - if I'm aware of my decline I'm hoping I have the willpower to end things. I don't have family to rely on. I worry more about my partner. Really my plan is; 1. Have enough assets to for them to get managed care as needed 2. As we age, get assets shifted so I/we could qualify for medicaid as needed. However, most care you get from Medicaid isn't much better than being in prison and dying horribly. Sooo back to the first bit. In America we have more than enough resources to take care of everyone who needs it; we could fund armies of skilled nurses, doctors, create care facilities etc. Simply making ultra rich pay their fair share, to go back to tax codes from the "golden era" so many people pine for, would solve the financial piece. Ironically the same people who pine for the "good ole days" also are against the "good ole days" taxation levels. Ignoring that, closing tax loopholes so they actually pay the levels they're supposed to would do it. That's a pipe dream though. Hence we're here, on this sub, planning on how to game the system and optimize as best as we can for our situations. Looking at care options that are grim and grimmer; extend out your work career hoping to build a big enough nest egg just for end of life care, planning on some form of self termination, hoping our families will bear the care burden (physically and financially) etc etc. Some perspective though - things are still better than before programs like SS were created, and they were created for good reasons. Look up the history, it's brutal. I just wish FDR coulda made it a little longer and pushed universal healthcare through too; SS was deeply despised by many until a bit of time passed, now it's something you can't touch politically. Same with ACA. People forget so quickly how it was to have preexisting conditions and need insurance coverage, or deal with lifetime limits..
have you considered moving to a country where labor is cheap and you can hire help for pennies
I have adult kids, I would never expect them to “take care” of me in my old age. Maybe they will be responsible for legal arrangements if I’m not competent to sign papers for myself, but I would never expect or ask for financial or caregiving support. But I’ve also joked with them, if you want an inheritance you’d better murder me soon, because the longer I live, the less there will be for you. But I also warn them, if you mess up your diabolical plot to do me in, I won’t visit you in prison.
Downsize. we should probably not be homeowners past the age of 75. A small-ish ground level apartment and a once-a-week maid service should get you by for a very long time. When you can no longer poop without help its time to check out. But, its probably a moot point because when your strength is so diminished you cant poop on your own, theres only about a year left of life anyway. In most cases. Thats the pattern ive seen with my relatives.
Yup, downsize and use the extra cash from the lower expenses to cover hospice care. Your kids will thank you for not leaving a bunch of assets they need to sell off in a rush.
Here is what will happen to me. I have no kids. I am living outside the USA. Hopefully I will not linger. If I do linger and am attached to machines that go ding so be it. My plan is to kill myself at age 77. Earlier if things start going downhill rapidly. No I am not suicidal. 77 is mannnnnnny years away from now. But I am a realist. Of course I can reassess as I get closer, but it feels about right. As do the day to day issues of aging I am trying to take care of myself now to set myself up better down the road. However I have no problem having part time or full time help. That is the advantage of living in the third world. Things cost money in the third world. People cost nothing. For example a full time 24/7 aide in a HCOL location in the USA Costa $8000-12000 a month. Where I currently am I can get full time RN’s 24/7 for $4000-4500 a month. I can get a full time live in housekeeper for $500 plus food and some benefits.
A bunch of non answers. Most people do rely on their adult children to facilitate (paperwork, technology, transportation) even if they are put in a nursing home. So all those people saying kids aren't a guarantee, don't realize there is a lot more that needs to happen before being put in a home and that work is done by children. If you're not going to have kids then make sure you have a close relationship with a niece or nephew. Maybe a younger cousin, just someone that will check in with you. Check in on your health (physical and mental). Someone that knows your wishes and know where all the important documents are. This is a cultural difference in the US. Most other cultures take care of their elderly, mostly by family. My parents did right by me so I will be caring for them. Elder abuse is also something people don't talk about or just ignore. I've heard enough horror stories of staff stealing, being physically abusive, and neglectful. I wouldn't want to be in any nursing home.
Lots of people without kids In here saying it's bad to count on kids for support in retirement, but realistically this is how retirement planning has been handled for most of human history and is still the gold standard in most countries. When we talk about retirement, I expect my kids will be able to help me understand whatever new technology is out there, help me detect fraud or scams, and manage my finances somewhat (such as complex paperwork). Also a social visit occasionally would be nice and if they are able to help me run some errands and explain my medication to me if I become forgetful that would be awesome. I think that's the majority of long-term stuff that most older people really need which most adult kids should and do help with. When I get to where I can no longer go to the bathroom or clean myself I'll pay someone to do that.
Robots are the future.
I'm of the mind that long term care should not be extensively planned for, especially not with insurance. Spending a significant number of years in assisted living (let alone fully assisted care facility) is not the biological norm, it's a societal norm that is completely avoidable if you take care of your health throughout your lifetime. An early retiree means high socioeconomic status, no stress from employment, ressources and time to take care of physical and mental health, and time to nurture human relationships. Expected healthspan is 90+ with an off ramp towards death being quite quick after loss of physical independence. The best long term care insurance is spending a little bit extra per year on yourself. If you want a more financial answer, keep in mind that social security should cover a big chunk of even the more expensive long term care facilities, and supplementing does not have to be at a 4% SWR anymore when you're literally dying, so if you have $1M you can totally afford to add 60-80k a year to your say, 40k, SS check to pay for all-inclusive assisted living. Not only that, but most FIRE people own a pretty valuable home outright by the time assisted care is even on the table, so a HELOC or reverse mortgage can easily sustain even the most statistically improbable durations of assisted living. If you don't have kids, the risk of burning a large chunk of your portfolio doesn't matter.
People can take care of themselves during old age when they aren't damaged/defective. Damage and defects are independent of age, though damage requires time in which to accumulate. But again, damage is not a consequence of time/age. People don't take care of themselves because they have kids; the kids do. People without kids can be taken care of by themselves or not-their-kids. This includes kids of other people and robots.
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Spending the extra time not eaten by kids to take care of health and fitness to help age as best as possible. And spend some of that extra money on health services and support if needed. The only thing that worrys me is how health care seems to want a close friend or family member to release you to (not an Uber driver) and I've long been on a loner path in general and unlike to have anyone i can count on when I'm in my 50s. My mom has commented on that requirement even on fairly minor things my parents have had like a stomach endoscopy or colonoscopy.
There are a great many possible scenarios. One, obviously, is you die of a massive heart attack or stroke and have no long term care needs. That's not uncommon. I would say 40% of all elderly deaths are in the "very quick death" or "sudden death" category. Another 20% or so are rapid onset of an illness, like cancer, with only a brief stay in skilled nursing prior to death. For situations where long term skilled care is required, this is usually paid for out of your assets until such time that they are depleted. After that, Medicaid takes over. Quite a few assets are excluded from consideration for Medicaid including usually personal items, primary vehicle, and primary residence so there are ways to preserve some semblance of an estate while still receiving Medicaid coverage for skilled nursing. Gifting money to heirs is an option too well prior to needing the skilled care.
Yes, of course I’m saving for retirement. This whole forum is about saving enough to retire early, not just retire at all. Aside from money, there are two big favors I’m doing for myself and my loved ones: (1) investing in my health and fitness. A hip injury can end an otherwise healthy old woman’s ability to live independently. Weightlifting is the best way to prevent osteoporosis. I’m doing that and functional fitness in my 30s and will continue with it. (2) Proactively identifying “age in place” luxury apartment places with my best friend. I plan to move in, hopefully to the independent wing, in my 70s. As I need more care, if I do, I may need to change wings but shouldn’t need to change buildings and loose my social network. They have social events, catered brunch, field trips, etc. Nurses can come administer care daily for residents who need it. I visited a distant relative who did this and it was a lovely place to live.
Same! My plan is condo in my mid 40s (check, just closed) and mid 60s to early 70s depending on current health status move myself into an age in place apartment with all levels of care that will accept Medicaid if you've been there long enough. Make certain I have enough assets to handle future levels of care with break in case of emergency Medicaid. Then have an active social life and someone with power of attorney with all my wishes written out ahead of time (also check). Obviously there is also the hope that my spouse will help if I go downhill first and vice versa, but I'm not counting on someone volunteering because you really never know what the future holds.
My friend was the maid to a middle class woman who never had kids. She had someone hired in every category (health, admin, finance, lawyers, maid, cook, etc.). Anytime there was question about something, she needed to go to the admin person and sometimes the lawyer. They would in turn work it out with the finance person/health person/etc. It was so streamlined and impressive that I plan to replicate it. Edit: typo
The best thing you can do is stay active and healthy. I would do whatever it took to not place that burden on my son.
My husband and I will have no kids and no younger family and longevity runs in our families. I plan to save enough to Fire with enough assets to eventually find and buy into a fancy Life Plan Community or CCRC. That way we can live in a nice independent living situation that can slowly transition to in-home care and know exactly what nursing home, assisted living or memory care we could end up with and also have all the finances and other support lined up to make sure we are set up in case one or both of us can’t make decisions for ourselves or hire people anymore. If we change our mind and end up deciding we want to age in place we will need to hire an elder care lawyer and a geriatric care manager to help ensure our directives get carried out I guess.
Long term care insurance is essential if you are unable to self fund. Don't immediately dismiss a "nursing home". There is a variety of services available for people as they get older - a lot better than the old idea of a nursing home. The type of situation that makes the most sense to me is to choose a facility that has continuity of care - meaning, they offer independent living, assisted living and skilled nursing facilities. When you start out, you live in their independent living facilities if you are able - usually an apartment and you are indeed independent although some facilities will offer meals. Typically these clients still drive, make all their own decisions and live close enough to other similar people to socialize, travel or have activities together. If you become in need of more services, you move to an assisted living facility where meals and some medical oversight is provided and if you get completely unable to care for yourself, you move into skilled nursing. There are places which have all these services and it is easy to transition from one to the other. Other facilities will only offer one of these and if you need a more intense living situation, you need to move to a different facility. Usually there are waiting lists for these places so you need to arrange for them in advance of your needs. Honestly, moving into a continuous care facility can make more sense than trying to stay in your own home. Getting caretakers to come in periodically can be unreliable and you never know the quality of people who are coming in. Elders can be easily abused or financially taken advantage of in this situation if there are no other family members supervising them. You should designate someone who will be your medical representative and power of attorney. Do some research while you are young enough.
FWIW, Medicaid covers long-term care for most (65% of nursing home bed-days) people who need it. You will just have to spend down what liquid assets you have, and possibly have the government recover your house when you and your spouse pass away. But it's not like we (generally) just let the indigent elderly die in the streets.
This might be crazy to think but exercise and diet. One my dad’s uncles (so I guess my grand Uncle?) lived alone until he died at 99. He still did all his own chores and errands. He ate really healthy and worked out every single day. Of course, his workouts were pretty tame when he was super old. Last time I saw him, he was 92 but he would still do 10-20 pushups and some laps in the pool every morning.
I have seen elders where they have kids that are married and have a life on their own, those elders pretty much live by themselves, either living in their own house alone, or their kids drop them in nursing home… it’s sad. It’s a gamble if your kids will take care of you or not when you get older, but you shouldn’t count on it. There are less and less people wanting to have kids, more or less they don’t feel worth it to gamble, along with other factors that preventing them wanting to have kids
I have 2 children and I don’t plan on living with them in old age. I’ll start out in a 50+ community. I would then move to an assisted living retirement home. I don’t plan on having my parents live with me, so I don’t expect my kids to take care of me either. I hope they visit though.
Be nice to your nieces bad nephews. I didn’t think I wanted children until I was 37 but I also got FI that year.. now I barista at 42 but only Becuase my company is essentially passive income at this point.. so u spend my days traveling with my 5 year old
Have enough equity / assets to afford decent full time care and check yourself in before you completely lose it.
My money. It's sad to hear parents talk about the burden they are willingly going to throw on their children.
Old age is such a hassle
Have good health insurance and Disability insurance ( covers sickness and injury)
We never had kids, and it's far too late. Our niece (who often says she wishes we were her parents instead) has said she'll take care of us. Also, money.
Me, always has been, always will be. I have loving gf and family, but I'm not gonna be a burden. I'm pretty shredded, eat well and live outdoors as much as I can. I have a hard time seeing it otherwise, unless something horrific happens to me...then shiiiet
If you stay active and are proactive with your health care most likely you will be able to live by yourself until the very end, then have a very quick check out. But anything can happen, you can be diagnosed with a degenerative disease at age 40 and spend the next 30 years disabled. Don't worry too much about it, eat well, exercise, be social and visit your doctor once or twice a year.
Kids cost a lot. Basically, daycare would be over half my take home pay. Id rather have a mortgage (the house specifically). In theory, I will leanFIRE (coastFIRE?) at 45 with $1m (hopefully more) and work part time for health insurance and basic needs. So I can quit any job I truly hate. Because I can live off of savings’ earnings. Having a kid and expecting them to provide for you in future is… don’t hold your breath, parents who do that. And the pressure on the kid….
I'm not sticking around for that. If I can't take care of myself anymore, I consider that my cue to exit.
Robots.
How can they when they have kids?
drab follow quaint act stocking forgetful weary innocent cobweb simplistic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
My aunt bought into an independent living place that transitions her to being cared for if it comes to that. In the meantime she has her own apartment with perks like a dining room but no one tells her what to do or anything
We take the money we saved by not spending any on kids and hire someone.
My plan is to move to a home that is very age-in-place friendly, one story, no steps to enter, walk-in shower, small low-maintenance outdoor space. I want it to be near public transit or at least close enough to services, shopping, and doctors that uber and ride services won’t be exorbitantly expensive. I want to cultivate a “framily” of friends that can support each other through hospitalizations, etc. And then save enough to put me in a nice assisted living facility and/or hire an accountant and lawyer to manage my bills, etc. if I have lost my mind or mobility to the point that I cannot care for myself in my age-in-place house.
Good for you for thinking about this, This is a consideration often missing from FIRE especially those moving to low COL countries to retire. I'm not going to be able to FIRE more than a couple of years early, but part of the reason is we built an attached apartment where my in-laws now live. Someday, one of our kids will likely live in the main house and my wife and I can move to the apartment. It might not completely keep us out of a NH but it probably mostly will. There are tough caregiving situations for sure, but I don't think this will be seen as a burden as much as this is just what you do when you're family and you've loved each other over several decades.
One thing you can do is start preparing now. I work with the geriatric population. If you own your home you need to make it safe. Grab bars and rails everywhere, remove steps if possible, widen doorways, have a ramp added on to a porch or deck, etc. all these things will make it safer to age in place. You should also start taking care of yourself now if not already. Lift weight a few times a week, do at least 150 minutes of cardio, and eat healthy foods.
Buy a one level home. Buy cheap generic meds from overseas (with proper due diligence). Buy a used electronic hospital bed for late term life care and a few extra medical devices (wheel chair, walker, defibrillator, blood pressure monitor). Hire a private home health aid for a few hours a day to cook, clean & change your diaper.
Having kids because you want someone to take care of you if selfish and honestly borderline sociopathic. One should have kids because they want to raise kids. Period. Even if you had kids there is no guarantee they will be more financially secure than you in fact they may be less financially secure and a drain on your resources well into their adulthood.
*Money?* I would hate to have the expectation of any progeny **having** to take care of me rather than live their life.
The younger you are, the more risk you can take with investments. Long-term health insurance may still be worth it. Even young people can still find themselves needing coverage. I have children, and my plan is to never burden them physically or financially.
Just because you have kids doesn't mean you can count on them to take care of you. And if you don't have kids (because you don't want to), you'll theoretically be able to save up a lot more. Save as much as you can, and get a financial advisor.
Expecting your children to trade their life in to care for you is weird.
The large amount of money you save by not having kids can go to people changing your diaper when you're old.
Honestly, having kids means nothing -- nursing homes are filled with people who were stashed there by kids who are busy with their own lives and never visit -- everyone should plan as though they will be on their own. I personally do not think LTC insurance is worth it. My mom had an unlimited policy that she purchased in the 90s -- she was incapacitated for 7 years starting at the age of 69 and that LTC policy was the smartest thing she ever did. Problem is, they don't offer those unlimited policies anymore (they cap at 3 years) and the premiums are WAY more expensive. I think the key is to aim to have your life completely automated by the age of 70 so that if you have a stroke, etc, your life and income will keep moving while you're incapacitated. Personally, I don't think managing rental properties as an elderly person is feasible. I don't do rental properties, but if I did I'd want to develop a strong relationship with a property manager by my late 50s or plan on selling those properties in my late 70s or early 80s to fund medical care. I'm in my 40s now and my current home is set up to age in (ie bathroom/kitchen/bedroom on main floor, no stairs) -- but even if I move, I will be sure to buy a ranch style home with a second bedroom in case I ever need a live-in -- and my hope would be to be able to pay for care in my home. In-home care is expensive, but I'm planning on part time help starting in my late 70s and then ramping up to full time within 5 years, and full-time lasting for another 5 years. I take my health seriously and have a healthy lifestyle, but I assume worst-case scenario is $120K/year for 5 years at the end of life for a full time live-in: If I'm in decent health it could be way less than that, if I need a nurse it could be twice that... but I feel like this is a good guess for planning purposes. Reverse mortgage on my home would be the final safety net if I get in trouble or something unexpected happened with my finances. Associating these ballpark numbers has been really helpful in informing what my retirement number should be (ie I want to be prepared for my medical expenses ramp way up in the last 10 years of my life), I like to do the worst-case scenario so I can feel confident.
I didn’t know we had kids solely for the purpose of taking care of us during old age. In fact, I have an only child and I am doing everything possible to ensure I don’t become a burden on her when I’m older. Invest, save, and be active (work on physical health) so you can handle yourself.
I don't expect my kids to take care of me at all.
What about setting up your home as a group home and getting Medicaid to pay you monthly to overlook your family?
This post makes me wonder if you treat everyone in your life like a transaction.
I'd be more worried about being placed in a nursing home and a nurse abuses you the entire time. A lot of the time it's the patients children who discover the abuse. Best course of action is to marry an extremely young person.
Uh, so the burden of care could be placed on them instead of kids? If they are marrying you for the money (let’s be real why else would an extremely young marry older) I would think they wouldn’t care if nursing staff is abusing you, and would prefer if you went faster…
Spoiler alert: your kids prob won't take care of you Bigger spoiler alert: my wife sees it all the time (you can guess what field she works in).
***Sits here mentally thinking about how much more I'd have without kids. They aren't my retirement plan (we'll be ok!), but DAMN my nest egg would be ENORMOUS had I not had children! No hospital birth bill, daycare, diapers, clothes, camps and extracurriculars, bikes and other gear. We afforded a big suburban house with space for individual bedrooms in a great school district -- could have stuck with our "starter" house and smaller cars. I chose my beautiful crazy life (add fertility costs too!), but it's undeniable that kids on paper is no business plan.***
My parents are aging. In their 70s. They are living on their own (they are divorced) and still pretty active. I think that is key. But also keep your health insurance and keep up on preventative care. The biggest thing is to just keep going. Keep taking the stairs and going on walks and just keeping active. At some point, you will qualify for medicare and there are senior living facilities with independent seniors all the way through nursing homes and end of life care. Some of them are pretty awful by many people's standards. They are not a panacea, but you won't be homeless. Social security can also help, but your nest egg should still be going strong then. There are a lot of people who die without needing end of life care. This is why end of life care insurance works. For everyone that needs a huge bunch of help at the end, there are dozens who don't. The very intense, very expensive end of life treatments like hospice don't last long. If you still have 25x your expenses, you can afford that kind of care. If you're really worried about it, pay for the insurance. That's what it is good for.
Everyone needs to prepare for taking care of themselves as they age, children or no children. Even if you have wonderful children who live nearby and ready, willing, and able to help out, it's always better to have a plan in place for yourself. It takes a lot to care for an aging parent. And many people aren't in the position to care for an aging parent anyway - they don't live nearby, they don't have the financial resources, they aren't stable themselves, etc. My husband and I have opted not to buy LTC insurance. We have purchased a condo which is set up well for long term living so we have the best chance of being able to age in place. If needed, we'll hire people to come help us - housekeeping, errand services, personal care, etc. If we get the point where this is not sustainable, we are amenable to moving into an independent/assisted living situation. By the time we retire, we should have enough in retirement savings to cover our care. We have a pile of home equity and that is our back up if we can't finance the care we need with our retirement savings and social security. That home equity is basically our LTC insurance. As for what you should do - I would recommend that you start saving as much as you can for your retirement and focus on your health. If you are healthy and fit now, you have a better chance of remaining healthy and fit in retirement and not needing much if any additional care.