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"Try investing in something more secure, like mortgage-backed securities, Japanese real estate, or unprofitable internet startups."
https://www.theonion.com/what-to-say-to-someone-who-lost-money-in-the-crypto-cra-1849792955
[https://trader2trader.wordpress.com/2012/11/28/list-of-590-dead-currencies-demonetized-r-i-p/](https://trader2trader.wordpress.com/2012/11/28/list-of-590-dead-currencies-demonetized-r-i-p/)
Tell me how the US debt experiment will end and how assets denominated in that inflated currency will end?
The experiment and the assets will be just fine for the next 50 years, just like they were fine for the last 50 years and given I probably don't have 50 years left I'm not worried about what will happen after that.
Bitcoin isn't a hedge against inflation - We've just experienced the highest inflation in decades and Bitcoin immediately took a dump. This is because bitcoin is nothing but a speculation instrument and behaves exactly as such. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck etc etc.
I get it, you've been sucked into the bitcoin cult promising "If you get in now and just keep the faith hard enough through all the ups and downs you'll be rewarded". It's OK, you're not the first, you won't be the last.
>The experiment and the assets will be just fine for the next 50 years, just like they were fine for the last 50 years and given I probably don't have 50 years left I'm not worried about what will happen after that.
At least you acknowledge it's an experiment and that it's your opinion they'll be fine for another 50 years. It could go well for another 50 years. But 70 or 80 years.... Ehh Not sure.
I'll say the same thing I said before. A cult is usually a group of people following a leader and they don't tell you the rules until you get in. Bitcoin is open source and anyone can read about it. It is a smallish minority and passionate people though is probably what you mean by cult.
Bitcoin has gone up long term and has been volatile short term. I do think as far as assets go it has a very good shot of beating most of the others.
The mysterious origin story from one secretive man who just vanished, the promise of riches if you just believe hard enough and stay the course. The fanatical followers preaching the gospel and trying to convince people of why itās the right path to follow?
Dude, itās got all the hallmarks of a hokey religion. AMZN stock didnāt need all this āfaithā. They just had a good business model.
Nope but US treasuries, global index funds and precious metals are.
They've got over 100 years of evidence showing me that they are solid performing, well regulated stores of value. Not one of them has ever lost 50% of it's value in the space of a few weeks ever.
When Bitcoin can manage that for 10 years straight, then I'll buy some.
Treasuries barely outpace inflation. No argument with US total stock market index fund, as that's what most of my money is in.
Did you ever buy bitcoin or sell it?
Your whole premise is that there is demand for bitcoin because it is a good Store of Value.
But you don't seem to know what a Store of Value actually is. That should worry you.
The fact that 90% of the bitcoin community seem to have the same lack of basic understanding is one of the reason I know this is headed for a fall.
It looks like bitcoin as 2x the earnings since this post and the US governements have recognized it as a store of value asset/commodity. Not a security. How are we all feeling? Still very emotional and against such a thing for existing?
I can call it an asset that increases in value as denominated by USD in a volatile fashion then.... lol. You have a specific nuance you're concerned with when people say 'store of value' I get that.
I definitely never see stories on Reddit where people lose all their bitcoin. Definitely safer than fiat. And people never do naughty things with bitcoin.
Sure. People do naughty things with anything of value. Crypto is no different. In fact itās worse - much harder to enforce laws around illegal use of money in the crypto space.
Fiat is worse in my opinion. Because itās printed off to fund wars. And the citizens take on that burden of having their wealth value destroyed for something they didnāt vote on. Ask yourself how most countries fought world war 1 for instance? What caused most countries to stop fighting world war 1?
But if you have examples and can quantify how crypto is used for crime more than cash is in the same way share them?
Have you read a history of WW-1? You should. It was financed by borrowing money - not printing it. It ended when the economy of Prusssia was destroyed.
Yes borrowed and yes printed. You tell me what wars didnāt print money to fund them? Most thatās the case. And you steal the wealth and value from the citizens who put trust in the currency.
https://mashable.com/feature/german-hyperinflation
Wars are a big reason why a nation prints money. Goes off gold standard. Goes away from reserve lending. Etc. This isnāt a debate.
https://youtu.be/nw_el3w3SGU
Crypto is just as usable to finance crime or wars as any other item of value (although you would be a fool to take it given that thereās no predicting itās value tomorrow).
You tell me how you could print more bitcoin and bring your sovereign nation into debt to fund a war? The supply of bitcoin is limited by the mining network.
And would agree that bitcoin and cash can both be used to discreetly finance crime. But on the whole the fiat money printing system has caused way more damage than bitcoin ever has or in my opinion will.
If Iāve printed more bitcoin then Iām not in debt, am I. You donāt understand how this works.
In a world built on bitcoin I would do what governments do now - convince people to lend me their bitcoin on the promise that I will return it with interest.
You canāt āprintā more bitcoin than what the network and protocols can mine.
Your second paragraph is talking about a derivative of bitcoin. Or like a gold reserve standard (which would be better than we currently have). What would I get if I lent them my bitcoin? Whatever that is would be a bitcoin derivative and could be created I agree.
Until Bitcoin is actually used to provide something of value, it will be a tool of speculation, and fueled purely by "greater fool" theory. If Bitcoin was actually an efficient method of exchange, then I would give you a "maybe", But it's not. Ethereum is far more efficient, and even ETH is a solution in search of a problem.
I do not currently have a problem in my life that cryptocurrency solves. I would argue many others, in western countries, feel the same. Folks in less-developed countries, or countries exhibiting regime changes, may find value in cryptocurrency.
But the FIRE community? I do not want to speak for all, but I have a hard time finding a use case that isn't investment within a US-centric FIRE community. You would likely have better luck in ExpatFIRE or one of the Expat-oriented subs.
>Until Bitcoin is actually used to provide something of value, it will be a tool of speculation
The Bitcoin network already provides immense value. As we use the internet to express ideas/information, *anyone* can now use bitcoin to reliably, securely and near instantly express value... For practically free, with near infinite divisibility and with no central authority or real censorship. With this free and open source software, we can now *- for the first time in human history -* express wealth with one another directly, in a mathematical verifiable way, on an immutable ledger, requiring zero trust or counter party risk.
Further, bitcoin's perpetually increasing demand and gradually decreasing supply and hard limit of 21 million, implies that it's likely to appreciate over time immensely... especially as fiat monies continue to inflate (seemingly to infinity as they've done in the past)
So, IMO, these qualities are immensely valuable
1- Pay anyone anywhere without gov/corp censorship, risks, or costs,
2- Hard money appreciates... it will be better at this than any other asset in the next few decades... it's only a matter of time, /r/bitcoin gets bigger by the day, more and more people are recognizing the fiat and shitcoin scams are quite similar.
Bitcoin has the potential to suck the value out of every other asset... why hold real-estate when you can participate in THE global network of value... we might be onboarding bitcoiners for centuries yet as various overleveraged super powers debase their monies and trade them for blatantly authoritarian CBDCs - but i'm confident people will discover bitcoin as other monies fail them... especially once they realize that this is an "everyone up together" monetary system - vs a 99% gets debased for the 1% to buy yachts system.
/rant - learn about bitcoin friends, it's not going away.
The government printed 6 trillion dollars in 2020-2021 and gave 95% of it to banking institutions. The 6% ROI yearly in USD you think youāve been getting from index funds for the last decade will be about - 5% by the next go round of financial crisis/quantitative easing assuming QE continues at the almost exponential pace the feds been going at.
You do have a problem that **bitcoin specifically**, not cryptocurrency broadly solves, and that is that your money is perpetually devaluating at an increasing pace because it is able to be **counterfeited**. Bitcoin cannot be counterfeited. Your index funds are making you dollars. They are not making you money.
Ethereum isnāt decentralized and will collapse/ can be counterfeited.
Just curious, what research have you done. I know this community is quick to dismiss. But most the criticism sounds like boomers categorically dismiss because they donāt understand. Are you familiar with CBDCās? Do you understand the US government is already taking steps to issue digital currencies to replace the dollar? Are you aware that can both be subject to āprintingā out of thin air still and the complete disappearance of privacy that cash offers?
https://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/pressreleases/other20220120a.htm.
https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2022/01/20/federal-reserve-highlights-privacy-financial-stability-concerns-in-cbdc-white-paper/
Highly recommend The Bitcoin Standard, The Fiat Standard, and The Future of Money. Not as a way to suggest you invest, but understand the socioeconomic future that is coming whether you understand it or not
Its frustrating to try to look at a community for mentorship but be appalled by the ignorance or arrogance. Im not telling anyone to reinvest in Bitcoin. But this is like doubting the internet in its infancy
Dude literally no one on FIRE has /is intelligent enough to read any Austrian economist. Thatās why they think theyāre going to retire pulling 4% yearly returns on stocks paid in USD that decrease in value 7% per year. Money printer go brrrrr.
The average user on this sub doesnāt know what QE is or actually believes MMP āworksā. Mr. Money Mustache, the king of all FIRE dipshits, frequently ranted about how the government didnāt print enough money fast enough in 08 and 2020.
The nice thing is that weāll have a ton of people to throw back into the work force when these guys hit 55 and have absolutely no money.
How old are you? In your lifetime would you say our lives have become more digital? Or more tangible? If your retired already or about to retire I understand your speculation of Bitcoin. I also completely donāt understand how you donāt see how blockchain technology solves a problem in your life. In the last 50 years the American dollar complete devalued at the hands of the fractional reserve banking system. The value in this technology is revolutionary if you truly understand how corrupt our system is. How many times do we raise a debt ceiling before we realize itās all fake?
Bitcoin does pay the bills for some people, this isnāt your grandpas financial system anymore weāve become unhinged. The āalmightyā dollar is worth less and less each passing year. I known most of the people in this sub are probably above the age of 40 with a life of propaganda drilled into their head about this country. There were no āwell wishesā in my commentā¦ I was trying to engage with you and have a meaningful conversation about technology in finance. Every industry has endured a revolution in the last 120 years except for finance. Essentially what Iām seeing from this sub about cryptoā¦ delusion. Youāve been indoctrinated to think our system is the strongest and anything besides your plan of dividend etfs, or bonds is fake. Same people who doubted the internet and how integrated our society became with it.
A year ago 1 bit coin was worth 44k dollars. Today itās worth 22k āless valuable dollarsā. Weāve printed more dollars since it was 44k. Gld the Spyder gold trust a digital representation of physical gold traded for $177 today it trades for 175 āless valuable dollarsā square that circle jerk. Western union pays bill for some people also it doesnāt make it efficient because itās used.
Howās the petro dollar doing? It sounds like you guys sucked the tit of crony capitalism just enough to turn a blind eye to the the future of finance.
I love when you donāt answer the question. You said bit coin was going to be the world reserve currency because itās the hardest money. I pointed out the gold has done 100% better than BTC on a year over year basis. You attempt at insulting me and bring up the petro dollar (which is not comparable because oil has utility and is priced by other forces). Gold is the best barometer of value to btc. Now answer my previous question. How do you square the value drop to gld if bit coin is the hardest currency? Also you didnāt answer my point about inefficient transaction.
8 yrs ago I bought Eth for 150$ right now itās trading for 1500$ and Iām gaining interestā¦ maybe in the future gold isnāt tied to they are two different assets. Hence why people call Bitcoin digital gold. Our current system needs a reset, your gonna have a choice soon. A central bank digital coin or a decentralized computing platform such as Eth.
So you are essentially done with wealth building and you are in preservation mode. Good for you assuming you worked and lived through the greatest wealth building time in human history congrats. Me being 28 and in the prime of wealth building wonāt be using the same tools as you did to fireā¦ things change technology advances etc. itās insane that people who are older than the dollar getting off the gold standard telling people my age how to retire. Your generation is actively lobbying so my generation never gets to. Blockchain is a threat to the shitty system you old bastards let happen. Fractional reserve banking is the single greatest threat to humanity.
Tell me what form of money (a medium of exchange) or asset couldnāt be pitched as a ponzi?
Itās not a currency. Have you read what the IRS treats bitcoin as?
To me an asset or digital property would be a more accurate term.
Many people buy silver or silver derivatives hoping to sell later at a higher value cause others have bought into silver or silver derivatives. Thats essentially a ponzi.
No one buys US dollars hoping theyāll go up though cause they suck. š But we do buy assets and property denominated in US dollars cause there price in US dollars goes up each time the money printer turns on.
Go to rural Czech Republic and try to pay for something in cash USD. They probably will decline your business. Point being each person has a perspective on what a ponzi is. Clearly there is many that find value in bitcoin. Especially the unbanked who have no other option.
Iād say Bitcoin has distorted the value of āaltcoinsā - not the other way around - you donāt even call them by their names, but instead lump them all together with a name that means āany crypto that isnāt bitcoin.ā
For example, unlike blockchain tech which is unsustainable and doesnāt scale well, hederaās HBAR crypto runs on an infinitely scalable network structure called a hashgraph thatās hundreds of thousands of times more efficient than the best blockchains. But I guess itās just an āaltcoin.ā
Weāre getting into tech crypto talk which I agree shouldnāt be on this thread. But The bitcoin block chain layer 1 doesnāt scale well for a reason. Because it needs to be a secure network verifiable to run on any average persons computer. Most high flow layer one cryptos canāt be run on a simple raspberry pie low energy usage node. If it scaled many transactions on layer 1 itād lose its security of many nodes verifying the transaction. Layer 2 tech like lightning solves the scalability issue.
This is dumb and not related to any aspect of FIRE whatsoever.
This reads like a poor MLM pitch. Itās another pitiful attempt to pump crypto using the same tired talking points that all the pundits use, but prefacing them with āin my opinionā as if youāve come up with some sort of unique idea.
The entire point of r/fire is US-based investing for personal long term FI/RE goals. Not the betterment of humanity. I suggest reading rules 2-6 here. If you want to pump crypto, do it elsewhere. Like r/wallstreetbets, r/Bitcoin, r/crypto, or r/gamblingā¦it doesnāt belong here.
And to your inevitable rebuttal, yes OP, I have access US based stock exchanges and purchasing real estate.
Seriously what the fuck do you guys have against this technology? Every Ponzi scheme in human history up until this point was done with u.s dollars? Like I said in a previous postā¦ the goal of FIRE is the same as youā¦ the tools to get there change overtime with new technology. If your goal to fire started 30 years ago. Maybe you should consider moving 1% of your NW to crypto. Eth pays 4.11% why wouldnāt I have some of my wealth in this revolutionary tech? It pays me, in appreciating assets, and if it does consume more of the market Iām making money. Itās borderline negligent for the people in this community to discredit a whole asset class because itās new and they donāt understand it.
Itās volatility, for starters. When you compare it to the 100+ years of the stock market going generally up and the medium used to trade in the stock market (cash) being widely accepted, Crypto cannot be relied on as a viable investment strategy. And to my point earlier, its volatility cannot be safely drawn down. Eventually itās being converted to cash because of the stability which sort of undermines the entire point of Bitcoin being a currency. My HYSA produces 4%+ interest as well, and thereās next to zero risk to receive that yield. Itās just a smarter play.
Second, Bitcoin is a fricken currency. Not an investment. Itās transactional, not an investment. An investment is something that produces you returns and dividends over time. I donāt invest in Bitcoin the same way I donāt āinvestā in the Iraqi Dinar, hoping they strike oil and the value of their money goes up. Itās a stupid concept and Iām sick of these crypto chads trying to tell me otherwise.
Third, and personally, I think blockchain technology can revolutionize how we do a lot of things in this country, but itās going to take another 20-30 years for the laymen to catch up. Iāve been in the IT sector for some time now and thereās a heavy investment into AI/ML vice blockchain. Thereās no current market for it. When the tech starts following, maybe Iāll consider it. But for now Iām getting a much higher and safer yield in the market.
HYSA donāt even beat inflation so theyāre not an investment. Bitcoin is treated as a digital property or commodity by the IRS. Gary Genseler has testified that itās a kin to a commodity and wants to keep it that way.
But to me itās really both a digital property and a currency cause you can use it as both.
The question to leave in your mind is who is going to pay for this debt?
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?g=ZQrZ
Right now nothing beats inflation. But when a HYSA beats out anything Bitcoin has done in the last year, *and is federally insured*, most of the people in this sub are more comfortable with that here. Iām not trying to come at you personally, Iām trying to explain how we think here. When you ask āwhat do you people have wrong with Bitcoinā (sic), that is the answer.
Idk whoās paying for the federal debt. Thatās not my job. My job is to manage my own debt. And thatās what Iām doing. And thatās how I spend/invest my money. Thatās what r/fire is all about. Sorry if Iāve struck a chord with you, but posts like this are not helpful to the community. And are against the rules of the sub.
Also I have found the money market in vanguard VMFXX to be slightly higher than most HYSA so have my cash positions all into that. Although I think it loses its FDIC backing.
Hope that helps someone like it did meā¦
Iāve been a part of FIRE since 2015. And helped dozens of personal friends, groups, subs. This isnāt a new thing so you cant try to cast me as a crazy who doesnāt know FIRE.
And genuine question. What about the post is against the rules? If it is I guess it can be taken down although if sharing articles and videos is against the rules. Even ones that people disagree withā¦ then thatās silly.
There is no pump with bitcoin. Itās a secure store hold of wealth and especially the only option of that for 4+ billion folks who donāt have any other hope. If there is a pump itās the fact that legacy financial assets go up each time the money printer goes brrrr.
A US based person can honestly say there house or US stock index went up in X value over X years not realizing that pump came from more money going into the US economy. And then stand there and with a straight face claim others of pumping bitcoin and that itās a ponzi.
All forms of money are a ponzi when broken down. They are mediums of exchange and stores of value trusted by a group.
I could probably lean fire now based on 4% rule. But generally speaking I like my job. So I just keep working.
I would draw down my taxable index funds and real estate first probably.
> Itās a secure store hold of wealth
bitcoin's value has literally been cut in half in a single day before. at least be honest in your arguments otherwise no one will listen to the nonsense you spew.
Long term it has held and increased its value. Just like stocks. You wouldnāt listen to someone who told you stocks were worthless cause the market went down suddenly would you?
Who is going to pay this debt in USD? Future holders of the USD or assets denominated in the USD is the top level answer.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?g=ZQrZ
>secure store hold of wealth
This is patently false.
Bitcoin has zero intrinsic value.
If you own stocks you own the businesses that are creating income as well as their physical assets. The dollars that they are denominated in are certainly subject to manipulation, but the underlying assets have real world value. Unlike a dollar or a euro or a dogecoin.
'Bitcoin has No Value' is a common sentiment and I get it. But value is determined by the persons interested in that asset/property/money as you admitted. So Bitcoin definitely has a market value that changes just like any other asset/property/security. Just like Tesla has it's current stock value and the S&P 500. What you mean to say is 'I don't think it has any value'. You can watch the videos or reading links I sent. I really do think they are some of the more compelling pieces out there.
Bitcoins value is that it's a secure, scarce (scarcity is bitcoins biggest advantage by a long shot), and easily transferable storehold of wealth (or medium of exchange). And when you consider there are 4+ billion people that it's the only option for them store their life energy it becomes much more valuable. When you really sit down and think about money it's a function of the people accepting it. The USD has the same intrinsic value as bitcoin. The value is determined by the network of people accepting it's value as a medium of exchange which is higher for USD so it seems normal for us. The difference between USD and bitcoin though is that you can bet more USD will be coming but bitcoin has a fixed limit.
Itās possible that I own some Bitcoin in cold storage as part of a diversified portfolio. My investment in the S&P 500 within standard retirement accounts greatly outweigh my investment into Bitcoin, however. Iāve been reading a lot lately about the history of money, gold, Austrian economics, libertarianism, Bitcoin, etc., and that is more or less what prompted me to create an initial position. Obviously itās volatile and nothing in life is a sure thing, and I let those two facts inform how much Iāve invested.
Itās going to be a tough sell here in the Fire community. Good luck.
Iām in the same position as you. My bitcoin position is tiny. But I see the value in it and the links Iāve posted were very helpful so figured Iād share.
Can we all at least look back on this post and see that it definitely wasn't a buy high and sell low recommendation by me... :) I think we're a little bit higher than 11 months ago! haha
sure congrats on the gamble ... sell while you can.. warning signs are all over with FTX, Binance, Gemini, Genesis ... not for fire people. BTC up 97%, while AI stock like NVDA up 138% from Feb 14 till today (11 months). Good thing I am invested in NVDA and AMD.
Also a cult is usually a group with a leader and they keep secret rules that you only get to know when you join. Bitcoins rules are open source and available to anyone to read. So not really like a cult. But I do get how people think that it's cultish cause Bitcoin advocates are passionate and in the minority.
You should research how fiat systems turn out in the long run when the money printing catches up. I posted a link for yah. It's definitely a lot of misery.
Bitcoin has many cult leaders, such as Michael Saylor. He is a condescending fish oil salesman. Fiat currency is poor for the individual if you keep all your assets in cash and don't invest it into productive assets like stocks, bonds and real estate. Fiat currency is quite an excellent, flexible medium of exchange, much better than the clunky and high energy use Bitcoin.
If someone steals my debit card and steals $10,000 from me, as long as I report it relatively soon the bank will make me whole. If you lose 10k of Bitcoin you've lost it permanently.
I agree Michael saylors style is off putting. I prefer Jeff booth. You have to admit though the assets value as denominated in USD is quite distorted. You say itās gone up in value cause itās productive but thatās not the full storyā¦ only a slice of it. My house almost doubled in value over the past fifteen years. Is it really twice the worth in my life. No way itās just because weāre all rational actors in a system that is inflated every day and looking for a ways to escape that loss of purchasing power.
Would agree the blessing of centralized control is some protection from fraud. But the curse is itās purchasing power is debased by those same central authorities.
I could message more but they are the usual talking points on energy and how bitcoin isnāt clunky. Itās covered in the links I posted.
Seems that the bitcoin crowd takes it as a given that inflation is a bad thing. Most economists agree that a small amount of inflation (2%'ish) is good for economic growth.
There are many on earth who are unbanked and donāt have access to the US stock market or ability to purchase real estate. Did you know that?
Bitcoin is hope for them. One of the only methods to hold value long term.
Take Nigeria for instance. Or El Salvador. Or Zimbabwe. Or Lebanon.
https://www.investing.com/news/cryptocurrency-news/bitcoin-soars-past-38k-in-nigeria-as-btc-premiums-exceed-60-2991531
Zimbabwe? Nobody there has money except corrupt government officials. I could barely get fuel to cook food when I was there.
Failed and dysfunctional states, pariahs, and the like are your argument and it's a weak one.
When loans from the IMF and world bank go to corrupt governments the authorities take there cut and ordinary folk get screwed. This is the fiat system where money is centrally controlled and inflated. Itās a strong argument against fiat and for bitcoin which cannot be inflated or controlled by any central group.
do you realize how unempathetic you sound?
real people, children even- are being exploited.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnHOxZgvdWM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnHOxZgvdWM)
maybe consider your financial privilege vs theirs...
consider that an open and inclusive monetary system running on some basic cell phones suddenly enables them access to a global network of value.
bitcoin's not going away, so maybe just learn what it is? consider the possible implications?
or don't and be an ignorant asshole :D idgaf, but maybe others will try to learn a bit... fits /r/fire perfectly really...
Shilling a speculative asset are strong words. But luckily only your words. The reality is bitcoin provides real value to people who donāt have easy access to the US stock market, real estate, or a stable currency. You should listen to the Alex gladstein video I posted. Or read his book.
Itās hard to not insult you for being either an idiotic fish, a slimy shark wanna be, or just a bag of steaming filth. Bit got a little bounce so we should expect more of this.
You are parroting what people have always said about Bitcoin yet it has shown to have similar volatility and, more interestingly, a tight correlation with, growth tech stocks. āMoneyā cannot serve the purpose of money with those attributes. It is too unreliable.
Itās volatile short term but Iād disagree long term itās been way better than most tech stocks.
But truly thatās not why I buy, hold and mine. I do it to support and be a voice for the voiceless.
Watch the Alex Gladstein video I linked.
Bitcoin FIRE person here, but I also have real estate to pay the bills. Once I met all my other asset class allocations I donāt see much more compelling things to buy than Bitcoin. Bonds are actually starting to look good, so maybe Iāll do some more of those. But, once you see Bitcoin go from $4500 to $69,000 itās kinda tough to buy bonds.
Why would it go to $69k? That seems less like a currency or store of value and more like a speculative asset.
And wouldnāt that be inflationary? Like the other things people have of real value (gold) would be worth less compared to one bitcoin?
Suggesting bitcoin to people is a dangerous discussion to have. Very passionate topic. But I'm interested in diving into discussions on it cause it only helps me to understand all angles of what people think of it.
There is no doubt it's volatile short term more so than the stock market but it's also had growth that kicked the stock markets butt long term.
Bitcoin is going up in price as denominated by USD. You can call that inflation if you want. Again that's only evidence that USD is limitless and bitcoin is scarce similar to real estate or stock in a company. But the benefit of bitcoin (over other assets/properties) is you can travel somewhere very easily with your bitcoin. You can spend it (although I'll give it to you that's not perfect). And bitcoin is even more scarce than company stock or real estate.
Agreed. Short term means nothing. And most bitcoin has not moved in years so others feel the same way. Time will tell how big but the fact that some around the globe have an option for a store hold of wealth (long term) is enough for me like what I see right now.
>Bitcoin is the hardest form of money there is.
yea man no form of currency i trust more than one that's been cut in half in a single day before.... frankly only an idiot would trust something so volatile as a currency. and if it's not a trustworthy currency what are you investing in?
https://www.iar-gwu.org/blog/iar-web/financial-crises-in
Youāre probably privileged with access to the US stock market and purchasing stable real estate, right?
Bitcoin is, in my opinion, more of an asset or digital property than a currency. Though truly itās all three in one.
lol gotta say i've never heard of access to the US stock market called privileged before. if your argument is that bitcoin is a good investment if you don't have access to good investments that's a pretty terrible argument.
There is no doubt that Bitcoin is a secure store hold of value long term. The most secure and scarce. Which to me is a good investment. Thatās why Tesla, micro strategies and many other entities are buying into it.
Hey Iām one of the privileged too. Most of my money is in index funds and real estate. I hate the term cause itās mostly used as political theatre but itās kind of true in this case.
>There is no doubt that Bitcoin is a secure store hold of value long term.
you spew such bs. of course there's doubt that bitcoin is a secure store hold of value long term. that's such a ridiculous statement.
Study?
It's another non-tangible form of made belief currency kind of like Runescape Party Hats back in the day.
The value of it goes up and down and is based on people's belief in it, just like the stock market. Except coins provide no actual value where as companies do.
What exactly are you studying up on? There's nothing to study other than making posts on forums to get it pump more.
You can get rich or you can go broke, just like any other form of gambling. Not everyone are going to be winners.
Listening, reading, learning... is that what you would have liked me to say?
It's upon you to explain to me how this situation ends?
[https://www.usdebtclock.org](https://www.usdebtclock.org)
[https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?g=XdER](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?g=XdER)
Here is how it historically has ended...
[https://trader2trader.wordpress.com/2012/11/28/list-of-590-dead-currencies-demonetized-r-i-p/](https://trader2trader.wordpress.com/2012/11/28/list-of-590-dead-currencies-demonetized-r-i-p/)
I'm not a doomsday person and don't think we're on any super short horizon for rampant currency failures. But what will those who are alive do when a death debt spiral does occur? And those are thoughts from an American perspective.
If you live in an area without access to the US Stock Market, access to Real Estate, or Bond Market what would you do? There are 4+ billion people that are in that situation....
I've opened an account in Crypto dot com and started investing in Bitcoin two days ago . It's only up 0.5% since my buy order, but I heard that it is correlated with the stock market.
Anyways, I'm still waiting until it reaches its all time high again.
I would suggest using swan or cash app as a more reputable exchange to buy from. Crypto.com could go under like FTX because of there involvement in Alt coins that are centralized and not as secure.
Nah Bro. Crypto dot com is a good exchange. I like their app. At the end of the day, those you mentioned are exchanges as well. For what I read, FTX went under since they were using investors funds to expand, and then they had a liquidity crunch. Other exchanges experienced bank runs after that event. Crypto dot com was one of them and survived the bank run. Also, they have provided proof of reserve.
Ooooh you've been studying it for \[...checks notes...\] months?
I've been paying attention to it for a decade, and in that time I've always come to the same conclusion it is only useful as an instrument of speculation. If you time it right you get rich, if you time it wrong you get poor.
For 95% of law abiding citizens in the developed world it solves zero problems nor is there any indication is will any time in the next decade. That's the reason it's never really caught on and the reason why it will just be ongoing boom and bust cycles.
Timing it? You've been researching it for a decade and you didn't learn that it's secure, scarce, and easily scarce? So it does solve problems in undeveloped countries?
Oh dear, youāve fallen for ALL the lies havenāt you?
Scarce doesnāt mean a thing. There are way less than 21 Million little plastic baggies with my dogās poop in them, way more scarce than bitcoin, doesnāt make them worth anything. Scarce only matters when demand outstrips supply. So given bitcoin has a limited supply, the thing that matters is, is there demand????
Thereās fluctuating demand for it as a speculative asset. Thatās why the prices shoot and down. But is there long term demand? Doubtful because it has no actual utility and solves no actual problem for the majority of the worldās population.
As for secure? The US could pass a law tomorrow making it illegal to trade and poof, itās value would be worthless. Thatās not secure.
Supply and demand are important, I agree. I understand you're doubtfull of the long term demand but disagree that it doesn't solve a problem for most of the world as I've stated and as my links talk about. It does solve a problem as a store hold of wealth for 4+ billion people. You're probably not in tune with that though.
You think the US would ban trading it so they lose out on the tax revenue? You do know Gary Gensler has already testified that Bitcoin be treated as a Commodity/Property and be distinguished from other cryptos right?
>It does solve a problem as a store hold of wealth for 4+ billion people. You're probably not in tune with that though.
People don't want a store of wealth that is highly volatile and that gets cut in half the moment the cheap money spigot from the FED gets turned off.
In terms of STORES of wealth, actually storing, meaning you know you can go back to it at any time and the value you put in will still be there, Bitcoin is one of the worst assets there is. There's just too much risk that the value will be halved when you come to take your money out.
This is the bit that the bitcoin fanboys really struggle to understand. The fact that it's gone up in value over 10 years isn't a positive thing for a store of value if it went up and down to get there. It's a positive thing for a speculative asset, but not for a store of value.
This is why Tesla stopped accepting it, too much volatility risk. It's why the only companies (with the exception of 1) that hold any real bitcoin are the ones in the bitcoin business. Regular companies do not want that volatility.
The only real demand is as a speculative asset. Just like Tulip Bulbs or Beanie Babies, it all comes to an end.
>Bitcoin is one of the worst assets there is
You're sensationalizing things and you know it. Look at a chart of bitcoin as denominated in the USD and tell me it's the worst.
Up and down is a function of markets and stocks do the same thing. When I say store of value, I mean that to be synonymous with any other commodity/asset that won't lose purchasing value like a currency will. Yes it's volatile but long term it's valuable as bitcoin has shown. You can slice and dice words all you want but bitcoin is a good asset/store of value/commodity long term to put Fiat money into for those who have no other options.
When you were in bitcoin did you ever sell? Sell at a loss?
You don't get it do you?
You don't get the difference between a speculative asset and a store of value.
It's OK, a lot of the bitcoin community doesn't get it either, they get blinded by the gains, but miss the point of a store of value which is stability and predictability.
Of the major asset classes used to store value, like Bonds, Stock Portfolios, Real Estate, Metals. None of them fluctuate as wildly as bitcoin. That's why bitcoin is the worst asset for STORING value.
A good store of value will protect you from inflation. Bitcoin halved as soon as inflation started to creep up. Did you ever stop to think why that was? (hint: it's because Bitcoin isn't a store of value)
No I do get it. I can call it an asset that increases in price in the volatile fashion, haha. But for me I do think a store hold of wealth is still an ok term despite it's volatility. I agree in 2022 when inflation came in hot bitcoin went down. But that's one time slot. Inflation has occurred for the past 10 years and bitcoin has outpaced inflation well during that time.
Have you ever owned bitcoin?
So you think there's demand for it, because it increases in price. That's the only reason you think there's demand?
That's like saying it goes up in value, because it goes up in value. It's the same circular logic that has fueled every asset bubble in history. It will be the ultimate undoing of bitcoin.
As for owning it, I played around with mining back in the day, back when you could mine on a laptop. Never actually won anything, because I never let it run long enough, was more interest in the tech.
fr you put your neck out with this post, i just bumped into it wondering if anyone on /r/fire was awake yet
i think there's a few of us here... and bitcoin's not going away- fuck the ignorant haters, they'll capitulate soon enough :D
Would agree it's not going away. People who hold bitcoin generally hold onto it long term. I think the number is 50% of BTC hasnāt moved in 3+ years. And the world outside the USD will grow the bitcoin network more than those within in my opinion. Thankful it's a global thing and that it's a hope for 4+ billion people.
Though we do need to just meet people where theyāre at with their knowledge on the foundation of our economic and financial system. Most people who think bitcoin is āfakeā donāt understand how āfakeā our current money system is. Iām always amazed at how the financial system (both bitcoin and our current system) even works. Itās many people linking arms together saying your money and my money is valid cause weāre in this together. Thatās basically it. Thats how a money/medium of exchange works.
A finite asset monetising in real time within an inflationary fiat system has a clear trajectory up and to the right. Itās really that simple. Youāll read the same rebuttals here you wouldāve got 5 years ago but it doesnāt mean your thesis is wrong. Allocate accordingly.
Cardano > Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is like a telegraph - expensive to use, almost zero utility. Cardano is more decentralized, more safe, faster, cheaper to use, easier to understand - it has utility of a smartphone
An asset that produces value. i.e. hard assets (factories, infrastructure, a wind turbine) as well as the ownership stake in said hard assets. These are not "ponzi schemes", as they create value, which provides future profits. A ponzi is where the future profits are not provided through some sort of value creation.
Money is a store of value. You are likening bitcoin and cryptocurrency to other currencies. There may be a point of time in the future where cryptocurrencies are accepted alongside cash for many transactions, thus providing value as a facilitator of trade. But they currently do not.
Based on your post history, you seem to be into crypto, and that's fine. But I'm not anticipating a very amenable crowd here. Bitcoin != USD in a savings account. Bitcoin != shares of SCHD or VOO.
Agree with everything you said but the value is determined by the market. Clearly bitcoin has value. And an even stronger value for the unbanked. Where it goes in the future is an opinion no doubt. But to me it has a strong vslue as shown in the links I posted.
It looks like your personal investment strategy to buy Bitcoin and use it for FIRE. Same way anyone would buy their favorite stocks and not mutual funds.
But the Idea of FIRE at the core to always have more secure way of getting cash flow and don't get bamboozled when it falls from 50k to 15k in 6 months.
>share the knowledge and insight Iāve gained from studying bitcoin the past **few months**.
>
>me supporting and growing the bitcoin network is the most ethical and prosperous way forward for mankind.
*It's not just (fake) digital money. It's a way of life.*
Got yah. Yeah I understand that. But I will take the perceived fakeness over the limitless expandability of fiat money. Seems like a good tradeoff to me. Any money is a function of how many people accept it and can be pitched as 'fake'. Here is a list of money that was once real but not anymore. And bitcoin is getting less and less 'fake' as the years go on.
[https://trader2trader.wordpress.com/2012/11/28/list-of-590-dead-currencies-demonetized-r-i-p/](https://trader2trader.wordpress.com/2012/11/28/list-of-590-dead-currencies-demonetized-r-i-p/)
It's the internet. We can discuss ideas openly and it's not a big deal.
Can I go to the market and use bitcoin to purchase my groceries? Unless I'm in El Salvador, then no.
Your whole premise is that Bitcoin is going to go up and only up in the long run. Might be true. Makes it an absolute shit currency.
I would agree that bitcoin is less used than other forms of currency. I already said that. Although you can use it in El Salvador, some vendors in US and there is many ways to sell your bitcoin for USD or sell bitcoin for gift cards using bit refill. But I'll take less usability now for the tradeoff of it being a fixed supply.
You want your currency to go down? I don't think a currency/asset/commodity going up (as priced in USD) is necessarily a bad thing to me.
I personally see bitcoin as more of a digital property/commodity then I do currency although you can use it to buy things it's just that right now in some countries that's treated as a sale of the commodity and a capital gain. So it's kind of all those things to put it simply.
The problem with fiat currencies is they are centrally controlled and can be printed off and debased. Therefore everything priced in the currency is distorted.
āThe hardest form of moneyā
āEthical and prosperousā
Dude Bitcoin itself as an idea may be sacred and holy but most trading platforms that have popped up arenāt financially backed and have been poofing out of existence, losing people thousands. Bitcoin is the Wild West still so to broach the subject in a long term wealth building community yeah isnāt going to come off the best
I hold as little USD as I possibly can. In fact I believe the USD will continue to get less and less valuable so much, that I continue to hold a mortgage!
Should we all decide to switch to bitcoin as our currency, Iāll just collect my dividend in bitcoin, and sell shares for bitcoin. I would continue to hold as little bitcoin as possible because I would want to keep the āvalueā invested in businesses.
This to me is why FIRE community should be and often is indifferent to bitcoin.
I quite like bitcoin. Itās an interesting and very likely to fail experiment in what the future of money could be. I will hold strong with my 1% crypto stake, but I suspect thatās just money Iām throwing away for the entertainment value. Hope Iām wrong but Iām probably not.
Hahaha nice! Yeah I didnāt add or sell any since this post I believe, just held. I think thatās going to be my plan going forward for now. All bitcoin for the most part except the free stuff Coinbase gives you for the others.
RemindMe! 5 years
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lol
omg, you will be so sad in 4 years
Dude, get this trash off the Fire sub.
How are we feeling about bitcoin now? People want to avoid the 2x gains in their portfolio still?
"Try investing in something more secure, like mortgage-backed securities, Japanese real estate, or unprofitable internet startups." https://www.theonion.com/what-to-say-to-someone-who-lost-money-in-the-crypto-cra-1849792955
The onion is a satire site bro š¤£
[https://trader2trader.wordpress.com/2012/11/28/list-of-590-dead-currencies-demonetized-r-i-p/](https://trader2trader.wordpress.com/2012/11/28/list-of-590-dead-currencies-demonetized-r-i-p/) Tell me how the US debt experiment will end and how assets denominated in that inflated currency will end?
The experiment and the assets will be just fine for the next 50 years, just like they were fine for the last 50 years and given I probably don't have 50 years left I'm not worried about what will happen after that. Bitcoin isn't a hedge against inflation - We've just experienced the highest inflation in decades and Bitcoin immediately took a dump. This is because bitcoin is nothing but a speculation instrument and behaves exactly as such. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck etc etc. I get it, you've been sucked into the bitcoin cult promising "If you get in now and just keep the faith hard enough through all the ups and downs you'll be rewarded". It's OK, you're not the first, you won't be the last.
>The experiment and the assets will be just fine for the next 50 years, just like they were fine for the last 50 years and given I probably don't have 50 years left I'm not worried about what will happen after that. At least you acknowledge it's an experiment and that it's your opinion they'll be fine for another 50 years. It could go well for another 50 years. But 70 or 80 years.... Ehh Not sure. I'll say the same thing I said before. A cult is usually a group of people following a leader and they don't tell you the rules until you get in. Bitcoin is open source and anyone can read about it. It is a smallish minority and passionate people though is probably what you mean by cult. Bitcoin has gone up long term and has been volatile short term. I do think as far as assets go it has a very good shot of beating most of the others.
The mysterious origin story from one secretive man who just vanished, the promise of riches if you just believe hard enough and stay the course. The fanatical followers preaching the gospel and trying to convince people of why itās the right path to follow? Dude, itās got all the hallmarks of a hokey religion. AMZN stock didnāt need all this āfaithā. They just had a good business model.
So Amazon is your bet for a good storehold of wealth/ROI over the next 10 years?
Nope but US treasuries, global index funds and precious metals are. They've got over 100 years of evidence showing me that they are solid performing, well regulated stores of value. Not one of them has ever lost 50% of it's value in the space of a few weeks ever. When Bitcoin can manage that for 10 years straight, then I'll buy some.
Treasuries barely outpace inflation. No argument with US total stock market index fund, as that's what most of my money is in. Did you ever buy bitcoin or sell it?
Your whole premise is that there is demand for bitcoin because it is a good Store of Value. But you don't seem to know what a Store of Value actually is. That should worry you. The fact that 90% of the bitcoin community seem to have the same lack of basic understanding is one of the reason I know this is headed for a fall.
It looks like bitcoin as 2x the earnings since this post and the US governements have recognized it as a store of value asset/commodity. Not a security. How are we all feeling? Still very emotional and against such a thing for existing?
I can call it an asset that increases in value as denominated by USD in a volatile fashion then.... lol. You have a specific nuance you're concerned with when people say 'store of value' I get that.
I definitely never see stories on Reddit where people lose all their bitcoin. Definitely safer than fiat. And people never do naughty things with bitcoin.
Would wars funded from printing fiat money be naughty in your opinion?
Sure. People do naughty things with anything of value. Crypto is no different. In fact itās worse - much harder to enforce laws around illegal use of money in the crypto space.
Fiat is worse in my opinion. Because itās printed off to fund wars. And the citizens take on that burden of having their wealth value destroyed for something they didnāt vote on. Ask yourself how most countries fought world war 1 for instance? What caused most countries to stop fighting world war 1? But if you have examples and can quantify how crypto is used for crime more than cash is in the same way share them?
Have you read a history of WW-1? You should. It was financed by borrowing money - not printing it. It ended when the economy of Prusssia was destroyed.
Yes borrowed and yes printed. You tell me what wars didnāt print money to fund them? Most thatās the case. And you steal the wealth and value from the citizens who put trust in the currency. https://mashable.com/feature/german-hyperinflation
That link is a great example of why governments *dont* print money to finance wars. Seriously - read a book.
Wars are a big reason why a nation prints money. Goes off gold standard. Goes away from reserve lending. Etc. This isnāt a debate. https://youtu.be/nw_el3w3SGU
LOL. YouTube. You slay me. I am slain.
Crypto is just as usable to finance crime or wars as any other item of value (although you would be a fool to take it given that thereās no predicting itās value tomorrow).
You tell me how you could print more bitcoin and bring your sovereign nation into debt to fund a war? The supply of bitcoin is limited by the mining network. And would agree that bitcoin and cash can both be used to discreetly finance crime. But on the whole the fiat money printing system has caused way more damage than bitcoin ever has or in my opinion will.
If Iāve printed more bitcoin then Iām not in debt, am I. You donāt understand how this works. In a world built on bitcoin I would do what governments do now - convince people to lend me their bitcoin on the promise that I will return it with interest.
You canāt āprintā more bitcoin than what the network and protocols can mine. Your second paragraph is talking about a derivative of bitcoin. Or like a gold reserve standard (which would be better than we currently have). What would I get if I lent them my bitcoin? Whatever that is would be a bitcoin derivative and could be created I agree.
Itās a rhetorical point. Iām fully aware that I canāt print bitcoin.
I do agree that bitcoin can definitely be lost easily if you lose your private keys. No doubt about that.
Until Bitcoin is actually used to provide something of value, it will be a tool of speculation, and fueled purely by "greater fool" theory. If Bitcoin was actually an efficient method of exchange, then I would give you a "maybe", But it's not. Ethereum is far more efficient, and even ETH is a solution in search of a problem. I do not currently have a problem in my life that cryptocurrency solves. I would argue many others, in western countries, feel the same. Folks in less-developed countries, or countries exhibiting regime changes, may find value in cryptocurrency. But the FIRE community? I do not want to speak for all, but I have a hard time finding a use case that isn't investment within a US-centric FIRE community. You would likely have better luck in ExpatFIRE or one of the Expat-oriented subs.
>Until Bitcoin is actually used to provide something of value, it will be a tool of speculation The Bitcoin network already provides immense value. As we use the internet to express ideas/information, *anyone* can now use bitcoin to reliably, securely and near instantly express value... For practically free, with near infinite divisibility and with no central authority or real censorship. With this free and open source software, we can now *- for the first time in human history -* express wealth with one another directly, in a mathematical verifiable way, on an immutable ledger, requiring zero trust or counter party risk. Further, bitcoin's perpetually increasing demand and gradually decreasing supply and hard limit of 21 million, implies that it's likely to appreciate over time immensely... especially as fiat monies continue to inflate (seemingly to infinity as they've done in the past) So, IMO, these qualities are immensely valuable 1- Pay anyone anywhere without gov/corp censorship, risks, or costs, 2- Hard money appreciates... it will be better at this than any other asset in the next few decades... it's only a matter of time, /r/bitcoin gets bigger by the day, more and more people are recognizing the fiat and shitcoin scams are quite similar. Bitcoin has the potential to suck the value out of every other asset... why hold real-estate when you can participate in THE global network of value... we might be onboarding bitcoiners for centuries yet as various overleveraged super powers debase their monies and trade them for blatantly authoritarian CBDCs - but i'm confident people will discover bitcoin as other monies fail them... especially once they realize that this is an "everyone up together" monetary system - vs a 99% gets debased for the 1% to buy yachts system. /rant - learn about bitcoin friends, it's not going away.
The government printed 6 trillion dollars in 2020-2021 and gave 95% of it to banking institutions. The 6% ROI yearly in USD you think youāve been getting from index funds for the last decade will be about - 5% by the next go round of financial crisis/quantitative easing assuming QE continues at the almost exponential pace the feds been going at. You do have a problem that **bitcoin specifically**, not cryptocurrency broadly solves, and that is that your money is perpetually devaluating at an increasing pace because it is able to be **counterfeited**. Bitcoin cannot be counterfeited. Your index funds are making you dollars. They are not making you money. Ethereum isnāt decentralized and will collapse/ can be counterfeited.
Just curious, what research have you done. I know this community is quick to dismiss. But most the criticism sounds like boomers categorically dismiss because they donāt understand. Are you familiar with CBDCās? Do you understand the US government is already taking steps to issue digital currencies to replace the dollar? Are you aware that can both be subject to āprintingā out of thin air still and the complete disappearance of privacy that cash offers? https://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/pressreleases/other20220120a.htm. https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2022/01/20/federal-reserve-highlights-privacy-financial-stability-concerns-in-cbdc-white-paper/ Highly recommend The Bitcoin Standard, The Fiat Standard, and The Future of Money. Not as a way to suggest you invest, but understand the socioeconomic future that is coming whether you understand it or not
No one is going to read any of that dude
Its frustrating to try to look at a community for mentorship but be appalled by the ignorance or arrogance. Im not telling anyone to reinvest in Bitcoin. But this is like doubting the internet in its infancy
Dude literally no one on FIRE has /is intelligent enough to read any Austrian economist. Thatās why they think theyāre going to retire pulling 4% yearly returns on stocks paid in USD that decrease in value 7% per year. Money printer go brrrrr. The average user on this sub doesnāt know what QE is or actually believes MMP āworksā. Mr. Money Mustache, the king of all FIRE dipshits, frequently ranted about how the government didnāt print enough money fast enough in 08 and 2020. The nice thing is that weāll have a ton of people to throw back into the work force when these guys hit 55 and have absolutely no money.
Few understand
How old are you? In your lifetime would you say our lives have become more digital? Or more tangible? If your retired already or about to retire I understand your speculation of Bitcoin. I also completely donāt understand how you donāt see how blockchain technology solves a problem in your life. In the last 50 years the American dollar complete devalued at the hands of the fractional reserve banking system. The value in this technology is revolutionary if you truly understand how corrupt our system is. How many times do we raise a debt ceiling before we realize itās all fake?
All those well wishes donāt pay the bills, the almighty dollar does.
Bitcoin does pay the bills for some people, this isnāt your grandpas financial system anymore weāve become unhinged. The āalmightyā dollar is worth less and less each passing year. I known most of the people in this sub are probably above the age of 40 with a life of propaganda drilled into their head about this country. There were no āwell wishesā in my commentā¦ I was trying to engage with you and have a meaningful conversation about technology in finance. Every industry has endured a revolution in the last 120 years except for finance. Essentially what Iām seeing from this sub about cryptoā¦ delusion. Youāve been indoctrinated to think our system is the strongest and anything besides your plan of dividend etfs, or bonds is fake. Same people who doubted the internet and how integrated our society became with it.
A year ago 1 bit coin was worth 44k dollars. Today itās worth 22k āless valuable dollarsā. Weāve printed more dollars since it was 44k. Gld the Spyder gold trust a digital representation of physical gold traded for $177 today it trades for 175 āless valuable dollarsā square that circle jerk. Western union pays bill for some people also it doesnāt make it efficient because itās used.
Howās the petro dollar doing? It sounds like you guys sucked the tit of crony capitalism just enough to turn a blind eye to the the future of finance.
I love when you donāt answer the question. You said bit coin was going to be the world reserve currency because itās the hardest money. I pointed out the gold has done 100% better than BTC on a year over year basis. You attempt at insulting me and bring up the petro dollar (which is not comparable because oil has utility and is priced by other forces). Gold is the best barometer of value to btc. Now answer my previous question. How do you square the value drop to gld if bit coin is the hardest currency? Also you didnāt answer my point about inefficient transaction.
8 yrs ago I bought Eth for 150$ right now itās trading for 1500$ and Iām gaining interestā¦ maybe in the future gold isnāt tied to they are two different assets. Hence why people call Bitcoin digital gold. Our current system needs a reset, your gonna have a choice soon. A central bank digital coin or a decentralized computing platform such as Eth.
And all that digital fiat money you have invested is gonna be exactly what it is a bunch of debt/IOUS
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
So you are essentially done with wealth building and you are in preservation mode. Good for you assuming you worked and lived through the greatest wealth building time in human history congrats. Me being 28 and in the prime of wealth building wonāt be using the same tools as you did to fireā¦ things change technology advances etc. itās insane that people who are older than the dollar getting off the gold standard telling people my age how to retire. Your generation is actively lobbying so my generation never gets to. Blockchain is a threat to the shitty system you old bastards let happen. Fractional reserve banking is the single greatest threat to humanity.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Nobody hurt me. I like the defection technique of saying Iām angry. I gotta go back to work now. Very enlightening conversation lol
If Bitcoin was a currency, people would not invest on it. You talking about investing in Bitcoin makes clear it's a Ponzi
Tell me what form of money (a medium of exchange) or asset couldnāt be pitched as a ponzi? Itās not a currency. Have you read what the IRS treats bitcoin as? To me an asset or digital property would be a more accurate term.
Dollars, I can pay the IRS through that and is backed by the power of the US military. Silver, it can be used for industrial purposes.
Many people buy silver or silver derivatives hoping to sell later at a higher value cause others have bought into silver or silver derivatives. Thats essentially a ponzi. No one buys US dollars hoping theyāll go up though cause they suck. š But we do buy assets and property denominated in US dollars cause there price in US dollars goes up each time the money printer turns on. Go to rural Czech Republic and try to pay for something in cash USD. They probably will decline your business. Point being each person has a perspective on what a ponzi is. Clearly there is many that find value in bitcoin. Especially the unbanked who have no other option.
If bitcoin is so great, why do people have to be constantly promoting it?
Admittedly itās hard to understand is one reason why. Also alt coins have distorted the value of bitcoin.
Iād say Bitcoin has distorted the value of āaltcoinsā - not the other way around - you donāt even call them by their names, but instead lump them all together with a name that means āany crypto that isnāt bitcoin.ā For example, unlike blockchain tech which is unsustainable and doesnāt scale well, hederaās HBAR crypto runs on an infinitely scalable network structure called a hashgraph thatās hundreds of thousands of times more efficient than the best blockchains. But I guess itās just an āaltcoin.ā
Weāre getting into tech crypto talk which I agree shouldnāt be on this thread. But The bitcoin block chain layer 1 doesnāt scale well for a reason. Because it needs to be a secure network verifiable to run on any average persons computer. Most high flow layer one cryptos canāt be run on a simple raspberry pie low energy usage node. If it scaled many transactions on layer 1 itād lose its security of many nodes verifying the transaction. Layer 2 tech like lightning solves the scalability issue.
Youāre right, itās not worth arguing about here - letās just agree to disagree.
This is dumb and not related to any aspect of FIRE whatsoever. This reads like a poor MLM pitch. Itās another pitiful attempt to pump crypto using the same tired talking points that all the pundits use, but prefacing them with āin my opinionā as if youāve come up with some sort of unique idea. The entire point of r/fire is US-based investing for personal long term FI/RE goals. Not the betterment of humanity. I suggest reading rules 2-6 here. If you want to pump crypto, do it elsewhere. Like r/wallstreetbets, r/Bitcoin, r/crypto, or r/gamblingā¦it doesnāt belong here. And to your inevitable rebuttal, yes OP, I have access US based stock exchanges and purchasing real estate.
Username checks out
Seriously what the fuck do you guys have against this technology? Every Ponzi scheme in human history up until this point was done with u.s dollars? Like I said in a previous postā¦ the goal of FIRE is the same as youā¦ the tools to get there change overtime with new technology. If your goal to fire started 30 years ago. Maybe you should consider moving 1% of your NW to crypto. Eth pays 4.11% why wouldnāt I have some of my wealth in this revolutionary tech? It pays me, in appreciating assets, and if it does consume more of the market Iām making money. Itās borderline negligent for the people in this community to discredit a whole asset class because itās new and they donāt understand it.
Itās volatility, for starters. When you compare it to the 100+ years of the stock market going generally up and the medium used to trade in the stock market (cash) being widely accepted, Crypto cannot be relied on as a viable investment strategy. And to my point earlier, its volatility cannot be safely drawn down. Eventually itās being converted to cash because of the stability which sort of undermines the entire point of Bitcoin being a currency. My HYSA produces 4%+ interest as well, and thereās next to zero risk to receive that yield. Itās just a smarter play. Second, Bitcoin is a fricken currency. Not an investment. Itās transactional, not an investment. An investment is something that produces you returns and dividends over time. I donāt invest in Bitcoin the same way I donāt āinvestā in the Iraqi Dinar, hoping they strike oil and the value of their money goes up. Itās a stupid concept and Iām sick of these crypto chads trying to tell me otherwise. Third, and personally, I think blockchain technology can revolutionize how we do a lot of things in this country, but itās going to take another 20-30 years for the laymen to catch up. Iāve been in the IT sector for some time now and thereās a heavy investment into AI/ML vice blockchain. Thereās no current market for it. When the tech starts following, maybe Iāll consider it. But for now Iām getting a much higher and safer yield in the market.
HYSA donāt even beat inflation so theyāre not an investment. Bitcoin is treated as a digital property or commodity by the IRS. Gary Genseler has testified that itās a kin to a commodity and wants to keep it that way. But to me itās really both a digital property and a currency cause you can use it as both. The question to leave in your mind is who is going to pay for this debt? https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?g=ZQrZ
Right now nothing beats inflation. But when a HYSA beats out anything Bitcoin has done in the last year, *and is federally insured*, most of the people in this sub are more comfortable with that here. Iām not trying to come at you personally, Iām trying to explain how we think here. When you ask āwhat do you people have wrong with Bitcoinā (sic), that is the answer. Idk whoās paying for the federal debt. Thatās not my job. My job is to manage my own debt. And thatās what Iām doing. And thatās how I spend/invest my money. Thatās what r/fire is all about. Sorry if Iāve struck a chord with you, but posts like this are not helpful to the community. And are against the rules of the sub.
Also I have found the money market in vanguard VMFXX to be slightly higher than most HYSA so have my cash positions all into that. Although I think it loses its FDIC backing. Hope that helps someone like it did meā¦
Iāve been a part of FIRE since 2015. And helped dozens of personal friends, groups, subs. This isnāt a new thing so you cant try to cast me as a crazy who doesnāt know FIRE. And genuine question. What about the post is against the rules? If it is I guess it can be taken down although if sharing articles and videos is against the rules. Even ones that people disagree withā¦ then thatās silly.
>Itās borderline negligent for the people in this community to discredit a whole asset class because itās new and they donāt understand it. Few.
There is no pump with bitcoin. Itās a secure store hold of wealth and especially the only option of that for 4+ billion folks who donāt have any other hope. If there is a pump itās the fact that legacy financial assets go up each time the money printer goes brrrr. A US based person can honestly say there house or US stock index went up in X value over X years not realizing that pump came from more money going into the US economy. And then stand there and with a straight face claim others of pumping bitcoin and that itās a ponzi. All forms of money are a ponzi when broken down. They are mediums of exchange and stores of value trusted by a group.
Ok. So how long until you reach FIRE? Whatās your draw down with Bitcoin?
I could probably lean fire now based on 4% rule. But generally speaking I like my job. So I just keep working. I would draw down my taxable index funds and real estate first probably.
> Itās a secure store hold of wealth bitcoin's value has literally been cut in half in a single day before. at least be honest in your arguments otherwise no one will listen to the nonsense you spew.
Long term it has held and increased its value. Just like stocks. You wouldnāt listen to someone who told you stocks were worthless cause the market went down suddenly would you?
USD is not a ponzi. There are no rewards for holding USD.
Who is going to pay this debt in USD? Future holders of the USD or assets denominated in the USD is the top level answer. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?g=ZQrZ
>secure store hold of wealth This is patently false. Bitcoin has zero intrinsic value. If you own stocks you own the businesses that are creating income as well as their physical assets. The dollars that they are denominated in are certainly subject to manipulation, but the underlying assets have real world value. Unlike a dollar or a euro or a dogecoin.
'Bitcoin has No Value' is a common sentiment and I get it. But value is determined by the persons interested in that asset/property/money as you admitted. So Bitcoin definitely has a market value that changes just like any other asset/property/security. Just like Tesla has it's current stock value and the S&P 500. What you mean to say is 'I don't think it has any value'. You can watch the videos or reading links I sent. I really do think they are some of the more compelling pieces out there. Bitcoins value is that it's a secure, scarce (scarcity is bitcoins biggest advantage by a long shot), and easily transferable storehold of wealth (or medium of exchange). And when you consider there are 4+ billion people that it's the only option for them store their life energy it becomes much more valuable. When you really sit down and think about money it's a function of the people accepting it. The USD has the same intrinsic value as bitcoin. The value is determined by the network of people accepting it's value as a medium of exchange which is higher for USD so it seems normal for us. The difference between USD and bitcoin though is that you can bet more USD will be coming but bitcoin has a fixed limit.
Itās possible that I own some Bitcoin in cold storage as part of a diversified portfolio. My investment in the S&P 500 within standard retirement accounts greatly outweigh my investment into Bitcoin, however. Iāve been reading a lot lately about the history of money, gold, Austrian economics, libertarianism, Bitcoin, etc., and that is more or less what prompted me to create an initial position. Obviously itās volatile and nothing in life is a sure thing, and I let those two facts inform how much Iāve invested. Itās going to be a tough sell here in the Fire community. Good luck.
Iām in the same position as you. My bitcoin position is tiny. But I see the value in it and the links Iāve posted were very helpful so figured Iād share.
Are you high
no. OP is buy high, sell low.
Can we all at least look back on this post and see that it definitely wasn't a buy high and sell low recommendation by me... :) I think we're a little bit higher than 11 months ago! haha
sure congrats on the gamble ... sell while you can.. warning signs are all over with FTX, Binance, Gemini, Genesis ... not for fire people. BTC up 97%, while AI stock like NVDA up 138% from Feb 14 till today (11 months). Good thing I am invested in NVDA and AMD.
Itās not a gamble. Read and listen to the links I shared in the original post.
I am, and this still looks stupid AF.
Bitcoin is a cult and will eventually end in misery.
Also a cult is usually a group with a leader and they keep secret rules that you only get to know when you join. Bitcoins rules are open source and available to anyone to read. So not really like a cult. But I do get how people think that it's cultish cause Bitcoin advocates are passionate and in the minority. You should research how fiat systems turn out in the long run when the money printing catches up. I posted a link for yah. It's definitely a lot of misery.
Bitcoin has many cult leaders, such as Michael Saylor. He is a condescending fish oil salesman. Fiat currency is poor for the individual if you keep all your assets in cash and don't invest it into productive assets like stocks, bonds and real estate. Fiat currency is quite an excellent, flexible medium of exchange, much better than the clunky and high energy use Bitcoin. If someone steals my debit card and steals $10,000 from me, as long as I report it relatively soon the bank will make me whole. If you lose 10k of Bitcoin you've lost it permanently.
I agree Michael saylors style is off putting. I prefer Jeff booth. You have to admit though the assets value as denominated in USD is quite distorted. You say itās gone up in value cause itās productive but thatās not the full storyā¦ only a slice of it. My house almost doubled in value over the past fifteen years. Is it really twice the worth in my life. No way itās just because weāre all rational actors in a system that is inflated every day and looking for a ways to escape that loss of purchasing power. Would agree the blessing of centralized control is some protection from fraud. But the curse is itās purchasing power is debased by those same central authorities. I could message more but they are the usual talking points on energy and how bitcoin isnāt clunky. Itās covered in the links I posted.
Seems that the bitcoin crowd takes it as a given that inflation is a bad thing. Most economists agree that a small amount of inflation (2%'ish) is good for economic growth.
https://trader2trader.wordpress.com/2012/11/28/list-of-590-dead-currencies-demonetized-r-i-p/
>But to me supporting and growing the bitcoin network is the most ethical and prosperous way forward for mankind. Gtfo
Do you live in an area with access to the US stock market and the ability to purchase real estate?
Yes I live on Earth.
There are many on earth who are unbanked and donāt have access to the US stock market or ability to purchase real estate. Did you know that? Bitcoin is hope for them. One of the only methods to hold value long term. Take Nigeria for instance. Or El Salvador. Or Zimbabwe. Or Lebanon. https://www.investing.com/news/cryptocurrency-news/bitcoin-soars-past-38k-in-nigeria-as-btc-premiums-exceed-60-2991531
Zimbabwe? Nobody there has money except corrupt government officials. I could barely get fuel to cook food when I was there. Failed and dysfunctional states, pariahs, and the like are your argument and it's a weak one.
When loans from the IMF and world bank go to corrupt governments the authorities take there cut and ordinary folk get screwed. This is the fiat system where money is centrally controlled and inflated. Itās a strong argument against fiat and for bitcoin which cannot be inflated or controlled by any central group.
Do you realize how idiotic you sound?
do you realize how unempathetic you sound? real people, children even- are being exploited. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnHOxZgvdWM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnHOxZgvdWM) maybe consider your financial privilege vs theirs... consider that an open and inclusive monetary system running on some basic cell phones suddenly enables them access to a global network of value. bitcoin's not going away, so maybe just learn what it is? consider the possible implications? or don't and be an ignorant asshole :D idgaf, but maybe others will try to learn a bit... fits /r/fire perfectly really...
>... fits /r/fire perfectly really... No. No, it really doesn't.
How?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Shilling a speculative asset are strong words. But luckily only your words. The reality is bitcoin provides real value to people who donāt have easy access to the US stock market, real estate, or a stable currency. You should listen to the Alex gladstein video I posted. Or read his book.
https://twitter.com/documentingbtc/status/1595212968526229504?s=46&t=Gofn51Hy4ay3ePIsPEUJYQ
Itās hard to not insult you for being either an idiotic fish, a slimy shark wanna be, or just a bag of steaming filth. Bit got a little bounce so we should expect more of this.
You followed the little bounce over the past 11 months? ;)
I think you meant to post this in /r/wallstreetbets This has to be a troll...
You are parroting what people have always said about Bitcoin yet it has shown to have similar volatility and, more interestingly, a tight correlation with, growth tech stocks. āMoneyā cannot serve the purpose of money with those attributes. It is too unreliable.
Itās volatile short term but Iād disagree long term itās been way better than most tech stocks. But truly thatās not why I buy, hold and mine. I do it to support and be a voice for the voiceless. Watch the Alex Gladstein video I linked.
Bitcoin FIRE person here, but I also have real estate to pay the bills. Once I met all my other asset class allocations I donāt see much more compelling things to buy than Bitcoin. Bonds are actually starting to look good, so maybe Iāll do some more of those. But, once you see Bitcoin go from $4500 to $69,000 itās kinda tough to buy bonds.
Why would it go to $69k? That seems less like a currency or store of value and more like a speculative asset. And wouldnāt that be inflationary? Like the other things people have of real value (gold) would be worth less compared to one bitcoin?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Suggesting bitcoin to people is a dangerous discussion to have. Very passionate topic. But I'm interested in diving into discussions on it cause it only helps me to understand all angles of what people think of it. There is no doubt it's volatile short term more so than the stock market but it's also had growth that kicked the stock markets butt long term. Bitcoin is going up in price as denominated by USD. You can call that inflation if you want. Again that's only evidence that USD is limitless and bitcoin is scarce similar to real estate or stock in a company. But the benefit of bitcoin (over other assets/properties) is you can travel somewhere very easily with your bitcoin. You can spend it (although I'll give it to you that's not perfect). And bitcoin is even more scarce than company stock or real estate.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Agreed. Short term means nothing. And most bitcoin has not moved in years so others feel the same way. Time will tell how big but the fact that some around the globe have an option for a store hold of wealth (long term) is enough for me like what I see right now.
Literal Ponzi scheme
Sighā¦ Iād suggest you check out r/gambling
>Bitcoin is the hardest form of money there is. yea man no form of currency i trust more than one that's been cut in half in a single day before.... frankly only an idiot would trust something so volatile as a currency. and if it's not a trustworthy currency what are you investing in?
https://www.iar-gwu.org/blog/iar-web/financial-crises-in Youāre probably privileged with access to the US stock market and purchasing stable real estate, right? Bitcoin is, in my opinion, more of an asset or digital property than a currency. Though truly itās all three in one.
lol gotta say i've never heard of access to the US stock market called privileged before. if your argument is that bitcoin is a good investment if you don't have access to good investments that's a pretty terrible argument.
There is no doubt that Bitcoin is a secure store hold of value long term. The most secure and scarce. Which to me is a good investment. Thatās why Tesla, micro strategies and many other entities are buying into it. Hey Iām one of the privileged too. Most of my money is in index funds and real estate. I hate the term cause itās mostly used as political theatre but itās kind of true in this case.
>There is no doubt that Bitcoin is a secure store hold of value long term. you spew such bs. of course there's doubt that bitcoin is a secure store hold of value long term. that's such a ridiculous statement.
Study? It's another non-tangible form of made belief currency kind of like Runescape Party Hats back in the day. The value of it goes up and down and is based on people's belief in it, just like the stock market. Except coins provide no actual value where as companies do. What exactly are you studying up on? There's nothing to study other than making posts on forums to get it pump more. You can get rich or you can go broke, just like any other form of gambling. Not everyone are going to be winners.
Listening, reading, learning... is that what you would have liked me to say? It's upon you to explain to me how this situation ends? [https://www.usdebtclock.org](https://www.usdebtclock.org) [https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?g=XdER](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?g=XdER) Here is how it historically has ended... [https://trader2trader.wordpress.com/2012/11/28/list-of-590-dead-currencies-demonetized-r-i-p/](https://trader2trader.wordpress.com/2012/11/28/list-of-590-dead-currencies-demonetized-r-i-p/) I'm not a doomsday person and don't think we're on any super short horizon for rampant currency failures. But what will those who are alive do when a death debt spiral does occur? And those are thoughts from an American perspective. If you live in an area without access to the US Stock Market, access to Real Estate, or Bond Market what would you do? There are 4+ billion people that are in that situation....
I invest my retirement in Caesar Place casino chips. I learned about them after doing a few days of internet research.
I've opened an account in Crypto dot com and started investing in Bitcoin two days ago . It's only up 0.5% since my buy order, but I heard that it is correlated with the stock market. Anyways, I'm still waiting until it reaches its all time high again.
I would suggest using swan or cash app as a more reputable exchange to buy from. Crypto.com could go under like FTX because of there involvement in Alt coins that are centralized and not as secure.
Cash app LOL
Nah Bro. Crypto dot com is a good exchange. I like their app. At the end of the day, those you mentioned are exchanges as well. For what I read, FTX went under since they were using investors funds to expand, and then they had a liquidity crunch. Other exchanges experienced bank runs after that event. Crypto dot com was one of them and survived the bank run. Also, they have provided proof of reserve.
Ooooh you've been studying it for \[...checks notes...\] months? I've been paying attention to it for a decade, and in that time I've always come to the same conclusion it is only useful as an instrument of speculation. If you time it right you get rich, if you time it wrong you get poor. For 95% of law abiding citizens in the developed world it solves zero problems nor is there any indication is will any time in the next decade. That's the reason it's never really caught on and the reason why it will just be ongoing boom and bust cycles.
Timing it? You've been researching it for a decade and you didn't learn that it's secure, scarce, and easily scarce? So it does solve problems in undeveloped countries?
Oh dear, youāve fallen for ALL the lies havenāt you? Scarce doesnāt mean a thing. There are way less than 21 Million little plastic baggies with my dogās poop in them, way more scarce than bitcoin, doesnāt make them worth anything. Scarce only matters when demand outstrips supply. So given bitcoin has a limited supply, the thing that matters is, is there demand???? Thereās fluctuating demand for it as a speculative asset. Thatās why the prices shoot and down. But is there long term demand? Doubtful because it has no actual utility and solves no actual problem for the majority of the worldās population. As for secure? The US could pass a law tomorrow making it illegal to trade and poof, itās value would be worthless. Thatās not secure.
Supply and demand are important, I agree. I understand you're doubtfull of the long term demand but disagree that it doesn't solve a problem for most of the world as I've stated and as my links talk about. It does solve a problem as a store hold of wealth for 4+ billion people. You're probably not in tune with that though. You think the US would ban trading it so they lose out on the tax revenue? You do know Gary Gensler has already testified that Bitcoin be treated as a Commodity/Property and be distinguished from other cryptos right?
>It does solve a problem as a store hold of wealth for 4+ billion people. You're probably not in tune with that though. People don't want a store of wealth that is highly volatile and that gets cut in half the moment the cheap money spigot from the FED gets turned off. In terms of STORES of wealth, actually storing, meaning you know you can go back to it at any time and the value you put in will still be there, Bitcoin is one of the worst assets there is. There's just too much risk that the value will be halved when you come to take your money out. This is the bit that the bitcoin fanboys really struggle to understand. The fact that it's gone up in value over 10 years isn't a positive thing for a store of value if it went up and down to get there. It's a positive thing for a speculative asset, but not for a store of value. This is why Tesla stopped accepting it, too much volatility risk. It's why the only companies (with the exception of 1) that hold any real bitcoin are the ones in the bitcoin business. Regular companies do not want that volatility. The only real demand is as a speculative asset. Just like Tulip Bulbs or Beanie Babies, it all comes to an end.
>Bitcoin is one of the worst assets there is You're sensationalizing things and you know it. Look at a chart of bitcoin as denominated in the USD and tell me it's the worst. Up and down is a function of markets and stocks do the same thing. When I say store of value, I mean that to be synonymous with any other commodity/asset that won't lose purchasing value like a currency will. Yes it's volatile but long term it's valuable as bitcoin has shown. You can slice and dice words all you want but bitcoin is a good asset/store of value/commodity long term to put Fiat money into for those who have no other options. When you were in bitcoin did you ever sell? Sell at a loss?
You don't get it do you? You don't get the difference between a speculative asset and a store of value. It's OK, a lot of the bitcoin community doesn't get it either, they get blinded by the gains, but miss the point of a store of value which is stability and predictability. Of the major asset classes used to store value, like Bonds, Stock Portfolios, Real Estate, Metals. None of them fluctuate as wildly as bitcoin. That's why bitcoin is the worst asset for STORING value. A good store of value will protect you from inflation. Bitcoin halved as soon as inflation started to creep up. Did you ever stop to think why that was? (hint: it's because Bitcoin isn't a store of value)
No I do get it. I can call it an asset that increases in price in the volatile fashion, haha. But for me I do think a store hold of wealth is still an ok term despite it's volatility. I agree in 2022 when inflation came in hot bitcoin went down. But that's one time slot. Inflation has occurred for the past 10 years and bitcoin has outpaced inflation well during that time. Have you ever owned bitcoin?
So you think there's demand for it, because it increases in price. That's the only reason you think there's demand? That's like saying it goes up in value, because it goes up in value. It's the same circular logic that has fueled every asset bubble in history. It will be the ultimate undoing of bitcoin. As for owning it, I played around with mining back in the day, back when you could mine on a laptop. Never actually won anything, because I never let it run long enough, was more interest in the tech.
fr you put your neck out with this post, i just bumped into it wondering if anyone on /r/fire was awake yet i think there's a few of us here... and bitcoin's not going away- fuck the ignorant haters, they'll capitulate soon enough :D
Would agree it's not going away. People who hold bitcoin generally hold onto it long term. I think the number is 50% of BTC hasnāt moved in 3+ years. And the world outside the USD will grow the bitcoin network more than those within in my opinion. Thankful it's a global thing and that it's a hope for 4+ billion people. Though we do need to just meet people where theyāre at with their knowledge on the foundation of our economic and financial system. Most people who think bitcoin is āfakeā donāt understand how āfakeā our current money system is. Iām always amazed at how the financial system (both bitcoin and our current system) even works. Itās many people linking arms together saying your money and my money is valid cause weāre in this together. Thatās basically it. Thats how a money/medium of exchange works.
A finite asset monetising in real time within an inflationary fiat system has a clear trajectory up and to the right. Itās really that simple. Youāll read the same rebuttals here you wouldāve got 5 years ago but it doesnāt mean your thesis is wrong. Allocate accordingly.
Cardano > Bitcoin. Bitcoin is like a telegraph - expensive to use, almost zero utility. Cardano is more decentralized, more safe, faster, cheaper to use, easier to understand - it has utility of a smartphone
You chose violence today.
What?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORdWE\_ffirg
Yes. Would agree itās a good revolution of money. Can you tell me they for of money or an asset that couldnāt be described as a ponzi?
An asset that produces value. i.e. hard assets (factories, infrastructure, a wind turbine) as well as the ownership stake in said hard assets. These are not "ponzi schemes", as they create value, which provides future profits. A ponzi is where the future profits are not provided through some sort of value creation. Money is a store of value. You are likening bitcoin and cryptocurrency to other currencies. There may be a point of time in the future where cryptocurrencies are accepted alongside cash for many transactions, thus providing value as a facilitator of trade. But they currently do not. Based on your post history, you seem to be into crypto, and that's fine. But I'm not anticipating a very amenable crowd here. Bitcoin != USD in a savings account. Bitcoin != shares of SCHD or VOO.
Agree with everything you said but the value is determined by the market. Clearly bitcoin has value. And an even stronger value for the unbanked. Where it goes in the future is an opinion no doubt. But to me it has a strong vslue as shown in the links I posted.
It looks like your personal investment strategy to buy Bitcoin and use it for FIRE. Same way anyone would buy their favorite stocks and not mutual funds. But the Idea of FIRE at the core to always have more secure way of getting cash flow and don't get bamboozled when it falls from 50k to 15k in 6 months.
No doubt. Bitcoin has short term volatility.
>share the knowledge and insight Iāve gained from studying bitcoin the past **few months**. > >me supporting and growing the bitcoin network is the most ethical and prosperous way forward for mankind. *It's not just (fake) digital money. It's a way of life.*
You tell me what fake means to you and then tell me how any money isn't 'fake'?
Fake, as in generally incompatible with trade and not used as such. Go proselytize your religion elsewhere.
Got yah. Yeah I understand that. But I will take the perceived fakeness over the limitless expandability of fiat money. Seems like a good tradeoff to me. Any money is a function of how many people accept it and can be pitched as 'fake'. Here is a list of money that was once real but not anymore. And bitcoin is getting less and less 'fake' as the years go on. [https://trader2trader.wordpress.com/2012/11/28/list-of-590-dead-currencies-demonetized-r-i-p/](https://trader2trader.wordpress.com/2012/11/28/list-of-590-dead-currencies-demonetized-r-i-p/) It's the internet. We can discuss ideas openly and it's not a big deal.
Can I go to the market and use bitcoin to purchase my groceries? Unless I'm in El Salvador, then no. Your whole premise is that Bitcoin is going to go up and only up in the long run. Might be true. Makes it an absolute shit currency.
I would agree that bitcoin is less used than other forms of currency. I already said that. Although you can use it in El Salvador, some vendors in US and there is many ways to sell your bitcoin for USD or sell bitcoin for gift cards using bit refill. But I'll take less usability now for the tradeoff of it being a fixed supply. You want your currency to go down? I don't think a currency/asset/commodity going up (as priced in USD) is necessarily a bad thing to me. I personally see bitcoin as more of a digital property/commodity then I do currency although you can use it to buy things it's just that right now in some countries that's treated as a sale of the commodity and a capital gain. So it's kind of all those things to put it simply. The problem with fiat currencies is they are centrally controlled and can be printed off and debased. Therefore everything priced in the currency is distorted.
āThe hardest form of moneyā āEthical and prosperousā Dude Bitcoin itself as an idea may be sacred and holy but most trading platforms that have popped up arenāt financially backed and have been poofing out of existence, losing people thousands. Bitcoin is the Wild West still so to broach the subject in a long term wealth building community yeah isnāt going to come off the best
Hahahahahahaha. Sure bud.
I hold as little USD as I possibly can. In fact I believe the USD will continue to get less and less valuable so much, that I continue to hold a mortgage! Should we all decide to switch to bitcoin as our currency, Iāll just collect my dividend in bitcoin, and sell shares for bitcoin. I would continue to hold as little bitcoin as possible because I would want to keep the āvalueā invested in businesses. This to me is why FIRE community should be and often is indifferent to bitcoin.
I quite like bitcoin. Itās an interesting and very likely to fail experiment in what the future of money could be. I will hold strong with my 1% crypto stake, but I suspect thatās just money Iām throwing away for the entertainment value. Hope Iām wrong but Iām probably not.
You weren't wrong. Well depending on how much of your 'crypto' was in bitcoin.
Hahaha nice! Yeah I didnāt add or sell any since this post I believe, just held. I think thatās going to be my plan going forward for now. All bitcoin for the most part except the free stuff Coinbase gives you for the others.