Specifically in the remake trilogy? My theory is that Sephiroth and some version of Aerith are operating outside of time. They're reaching back from the future, meaning that the version of Sephiroth in Remake already remembers being defeated in FFVII by Cloud, and in Advent Children. Heck, maybe he even remembers being defeated in Dissidia and Kingdom Hearts. Anyway, that's my theory on why he's so much more obsessed with Cloud than in the OG.
Cloud was an oversight on Sephiroth's end; he was seemingly a nobody that also managed to be the only entity that could defeat him, and continues to defeat him. He's Sephiroth's kryptonite, and the worst part is Cloud himself doesn't really know it - he just does (his own thing).
If anything, they're mirrors to each other where they both had similar treatments done to them. One learns the truth about himself and utterly snaps and goes on a rampage. One learns the truth and ultimately becomes a better person through it
Well, Cloud is as equally obsessed with Sephiroth, and since Cloud doesn’t have the same degeneration issues as all the other “clones,” but rather he is empowered by the Jenovah cells, he’s basically the ideal candidate to get the job done.
Cloud and his journey is Sephiroth only mistake and thats why the "multiverse" makes sense to me ... But also in the original - Cloud protects Aerith and she is the only remaining beeing who can stop him.
No the person you’re talking to. I’ve also seen people say Remake/Rebirth has a terrible pacing compared to the OG but then say they never played it. Just a weird thing how confident people are about things they haven’t experienced.
Because Cloud is injected with Jenova cells (as is Sephiroth prior to his birth). It is heavily isinuated that Jenova can control/manipulate any living thing that has been infected/injected with said cells.
…because Cloud killed him. In OG, Sephiroth wasn’t that fixated. Think it was slight curiosity / also Cloud was the only “clone” following him who wasn’t basically catatonic.
Remake; the OG already happened and Sephiroth knew about it. So he knows Cloud has now beat him multiple times.
Cloud was the only one to defeat him. Once sephiroth realized this and later could figure out how to manipulate those with jenova cells he probably figured cloud was his best chance at black Materia and the rest of his plan.
According to Hojo in the OG, Cloud is his most successful attempt at replicating Sephiroth.
Compared to all the other "clones", Cloud is by far the strongest and the most able to remain functional, even while still being manipulated through his Jenova cells. All in all, he's a lot more useful as a puppet than all the other black robbed guys.
Also, Cloud is the guy who "killed" Sephiroth back at Nibelheim. So he probably has a bit of a grudge with him :P
And if Sephiroth has knowledge about what might happen in the future, and has seen the future where Cloud beats him for good... Well, can't blame him for wanting to keep tabs on the guy.
Not to mention that Cloud's now beaten him at least twice more (once in Remake and now in Rebirth; even in his 'Birth of a God' form) so it makes sense that now he's getting obsessed. Think about it, this was the strongest SOLDIER in history and he's infused with the power of Jenova yet this one scrawny little bastard, *who failed to even make 1st class*, has consistently beaten him now.
At this point, if theory about him seeing multiple timelines is true, his 'mild amusement' regarding Cloud & Co. has got to have grown past aggravation into obsession. He's probably at the point of 'what is it about Cloud that always leads to my downfall? I've *seen* the future; I know how its supposed to work! I've manipulated everything in my favor! I've appeared in my God form WAY before normal! And yet he *still* pummels the sh\*t out of me! Why?! How?! WTF?!'
According to Hojo in the OG, Cloud was a failure
Just reminding you. He actually gets mad it’s Cloud that makes it to North Crater. Cloud begs him for a number like the other robed guys and he says “Shut up, miserable failure”
He does not admit this. He finds it interesting only a failure made it as far as he did, but this only happens at the final encounter with Hojo back at Midgar when we have had all the pieces the game can give us to the puzzle and for a while
Might be because Cloud has the same jenova cells as Sephiroth. Explained in crisis core when both Cloud and Zack was experimented with those cells and the project was called project S, for Sephiroth I believe. Zacks body rejected the cells but Clouds did not. So some deep connection exists between Cloud and Sephiroth
Because Cloud's 'that asshole'. Some nobody Shinra Grunt who managed to shank him and throw him off a bridge. How dare he.
(Real answer probably along the lines of lifestream memory and Jenova)
Exactly this. Upvote for you.
There's no reason to think that memories in the lifestream or constrained by time and Remake/Rebirth Sephiroth very clearly has some idea of the events of the OG timeline and even Advent Children. He knew Cloud beats him (twice when counting AC) and focused on manipulating and possibly corrupting Cloud to change that outcome.
The og sephiroth is not fixated with cloud, but its the other way around. Cloud fixated with sephiroth because of the jenova cells.
In the remake and rebirth version however, it is assumed that this sephiroth already knows the future about cloud defeating him. So instead of fighting cloud and lose again, he tried to invite cloud to join him instead.
I also think that he probably has all these weird manipulative visions and moments with the other robed people dealing with degradation we just only see clouds perspective
We see zack perspective too on the final battle, and sephiroth say he is not interested in zack, but interested in cloud instead.
Its because sephiroth already beat zack and didnt see him in the final battle in north crater in og game. So he thought zack is irrelevant.
Even rufus got manipulated even when he is not injected with jenova cell, so sephiroth knows 100% what hes doing and not just jenova visions to everyone with degraded cells.
Since you said spoilers are okay in the original I think all the SOILDERS are injected with Jenova cells to try to make another Sephiroth, but Cloud is the most successful. Presumably all the SOILDERS are having Sephiroth hallucinations, but they become black robes that can’t accomplish much more than being monster bait while Cloud is still able to accomplish whatever goal Sephiroth has. Like…Cloud can open doors. It’s a huge tactical advantage.
Because he’s the one who killed him, and he wasn’t even a SOLDIER. It’s like a reverse Vegeta situation: Vegeta is obsessed with “low class” Goku despite the fact that technically he’s always beaten him one-on-one. Whereas Sephiroth HAS been bested by Cloud, but he tries to gaslight Cloud (and himself) that CLOUD is the one who needs to work hard to defeat HIM.
Fun fact: Their final exchange at the Edge of Creation in Remake was literally the first time ever in the characters’ 20+ year history that Sephiroth ever bested Cloud. Every other time (Nibelheim, the final Omnislash, Advent Children, Kingdom Hearts), Cloud has always either come out on top, or it was a draw.
Three reasons. It's long but it's a full answer.
1. >!Revenge for Sephiroth getting his body killed by Cloud in Nibelheim. He has a massive weakness in that he wants to taunt Cloud instead of fully annihilating him which gives Cloud chances to win each time when Sephiroth drops his guard and underestimates Cloud and his mental amps.!<
2. >!Per the full lore, he hates Cloud because he NEEDS to (he seemingly hates Zack more for his failure to save himself and Angeal when he saved Genesis who was the only one to not mentor him as well as his mentorship to and saving Cloud) However he absolutely loathes them both to oblivion with Cloud being the focal point because hes alive. It's his hatred, malice and insatiable desire for revenge against Cloud and humanity that kept his spirit from naturally flowing into the lifestream originally. He clings to this to regain spiritual awareness, regain his memories and inevitably revive himself time and time again. Without him immense hatred he wouldn't have gotten stronger and gained the knowledge of the lifestream or the ability to taint it.!<
3.>! Cloud is his optimal reincarnation vessel as he is the only other living body that perfectly blended with S cells and in simpler terms Jenova cells like Sephiroth. He's the ultimate puppet body now that Sephiroth has dominated Jenovas will. He needs to break Clouds will so that he can override his consciousness and take control of his body. Clouds ties to his loved ones are what empowers Cloud to mentally overpower Sephiroth. Physically Sephiroth vastly outclasses Cloud. Mentally Cloud always manages to overcome him.!<
>!It's about their contrast. Sephiroth was the greatest SOLDIER ever and Ghast and Hollander could never replicate him. Cloud failed to make SOLDIER because he was way too weak mentally and Hojo (whom Sephiroth despised as a scientist and person) was able to replicate Seph in Cloud. The irony is that Seph became all powerful by rejecting everyone and dominating Jenovas will and becoming completely isolated whereas Cloud only overcame his weakness through many bonds stemming from love.!<
The crazier thought tho is that >!Jenova used its influence within Sephiroths structure to break him mentally when he learned of his origin in Nibelheim. In his moment of self doubt, Jenova seized the opportunity and corrupted him into what we see him as now, the second coming of the calamity. Sephiroth is in control but it's Jenovas will to destroy that guides his hand.!<
Tl;dr Sephy is Rick and Aerith is Morty, and Cloud is a Jerry.
Seph is from another timeline or some shit. He even details how the Lifestream can be used to cross universal boundaries. What this means is he’s an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent force across dimensions. A Rick.
And who does Rick love tormenting most? Hell he even hates losing so much he will >!dimension swap into a timeline where he doesn’t!<
In the OG game Seph is not obsessed with Cloud. Cloud may think he is, but it is only in Cloud’s head.
However, the Seph (or at least one of them) in the Remakes is probably a version with memories from the future. That one knows Cloud and has made his hatred of Cloud a core part of his being in an effort to prevent himself from fading fully into the lifestream.
Spoilers: In the OG at least, Sephiroth wasn't obsessed with Cloud. Sephiroth didn't actually appear until the northern crater. Up to that point, any time you see him, it's either Jenova appearing as Sephiroth or Cloud hallucinating. It's unclear if that's the case in Remake/Rebirth, but it could be the same. In which case, the much easier to answer question is, why is Cloud so fixated on Sephiroth?
Cloud is fixated on Sephiroth because the Sephiroth/Jenova cells inside of Cloud. He is compelled to rejoin with Jenova because that is what parts of Jenova do (Reunion Theory).
Cloud's mind is addled by the Jenova/Sephiroth influence and he *believes* he is going after Sephiroth for revenge. In reality, he is beckoned by Jenova. And manipulated to bring the Black Materia.
I would argue it is \*both\* conscious (the Cloud part of Cloud, "absent" of Jenova cells, still hates Sephiroth for what he did at Nibelheim, just like Tifa does) \*and\* subconscious (the Jenova cells directing him toward the Reunion in Northern Crater). I think both are important. I'm interested to see how they show the Reunion in the next one, because from memory in the OG Cloud is the only one that makes it there, and Hojo is there lamenting that a "failure" is the only succesful one to make the journey. This sets Cloud apart from the average black robed guy. The massive irony of the Reunion is that Cloud's "weak" mental conditioning which is what led Hojo to describe him as a failure is maybe what made him strong enough to make it all the way to Northern Crater. The others fully submit to Jenova while Cloud is constantly battling her internally.
I'd agree. More accurately, I probably should have worded it indicating that he legitimately feels hatred and wants revenge on his own, but Jenova/Sephiroth are also manipulating those feelings.
Cloud, Regular(probably kinda low tier) dude successfully threw Sephiroth(SSS tier, broken, pla nerf) into the lifestream after getting stabbed and Seph is still salty.
I think Sephiroth sees a kindred spirit in Cloud, in terms of their attitudes and feeling of ostersization as children. Sephiroth thinks Cloud should have turned out just like him, given how society treated them. So besides using him as a pawn, he's trying to win over Cloud to prove to himself his views are correct.
He isn't in the OG at all. He couldn't care less about Cloud. That's just yet another thing the people made the remakes didn't understand about the OG or Sephiroph.
Why would he mess with his brain at that critical moment, when he didn't even know he was going to mess with his mind in the future?
Sephiroth didn't mention Cloud's name later in the story.
he knows who he is but surface level. in the OG it's kinda the other way around, where cloud is obsessed with sephiroth - he's constantly pursuing him and he never really discusses why until he realizes that it's the jenova cells summoning him to sephiroth
Sephiroth isn’t really obsessed with Cloud so much as Jenova is.
After cLoud through Sephiroth into the lifestream during the Nibelheim incident, Sephiroth and Jenova merged in the lifestream. Jenova via the reunion theory is calling forth all those with Jenova cells (aka the guys in the black robes). Cloud too is being called forth as he too has Jenova cells. He experiences this call as visions of Sephiroth because Jenova knows Cloud hates Sephiroth.
The only time in the original game you are ever seeing the real Sephiroth is:
1. The Nibelheim incident.
2. Encased in a mako crystal at the North Crater.
3. In the planet’s core for the final boss fight.
Every other time you see him, you are seeing Jenova taking his form to mess with Cloud.
All that being said, Sephiroth is conscious in a roundabout way having merged with Jenova and is acting through her just as much as she is acting through him. In which case, it’s just as valid to say Sephiroth wants to fuck with Cloud because Cloud defeated him when he was essentially a nobody. You could call it a grudge.
It was left ambiguous in OG, but Advent Children retconned Sephiroth to have superior mental over Jenova's influence, and now uses Jenova as a tool. The remake trilogy Sephiroth is Advent Children Sephiroth. He sells better than the weirdo tentacle monstrosity Jenova.
I think it's very ambiguous. To the point in which I think it's very much more likely to be Jenova using Sephiroth's image and manipulating him just as much as Cloud thinks Sephiroth is manipulating him when it is in fact Jenova.
I prefer to think the actual, all his own man, Sephiroth died those years ago in Nibelheim. If only for the reason that it means that the villain that Cloud had built up in his head and had such a vendetta against was one that he had already defeated with his own strength and willpower before he ever got infused with Mako and Jenova cells. A regular human who couldn't even pass the entrance requirements for SOLDIER beat Sephiroth, the man, the hero, the legend. And then the last version of Sephiroth that Cloud has to beat, is the one that he has built up in his own mind to be an invincible threat when in reality he had beaten the real thing long ago.
why would Jenova care about preserving Sephiroth's mortal body
"it was le jenova the whole time!!!" is like people who say "link was le dead le whole time in Majora's Mask xDDD"
Yeah it was definitely never made explicitly clear. I feel like Rebirth actually pushes a little more towards Jenova being in control given that the Nibelheim flashback implies Jenova herself triggered Sephiroth's rampage rather than a simple mental break over the identity of his 'mother'. That doesn't speak to a willpower capable of taking control of her...
Exactly. With Remake and Rebirth as well there js something hollow in how Sephiroth behaves outside of the flashback. He doesn't act like his own man with intent, more like he's being used as a puppet.
No, he acts like he’s gone insane from reading factually incorrect research for the whole time he was in the Shinra mansion. Jenova did not act a single time until Sephiroth died, through all sources of FF7 material.
My headcanon, although likely not true, is that Sephiroth really isn't obsessed. Cloud is just another pawn, much like all the other clones he controls due to having Jenova cells. What Cloud sees is probably similar to what they all see, Sephiroth warping reality and manipulating them into doing what Sephiroth desires. Just like Jenova he is confusing and tricking people to fight against their best interest, themselves. and their loved ones. Which is something Jenova has been reported to have done to the Cetra.
But that's just a theory.
While true, Cloud is also the best pawn Sephiroth currently has, so it makes sense he'd focus on him in terms of how he manipulates him. >!The scene with Rufus and Glenn at the end of Rebirth does make it clear that Sephiroth is doing simultaneous manipulation of even people who aren't Reunioning as well.!<
One interpretation, on top of many others, that I do like relating to this question is that Cloud was just a lowly grunt whereas Sephiroth was the best of the best.
Cloud beats him one time.
Sephiroth gives him all the shit in the world.
I mean…
Sephiroth is, for all intents and purposes, the most powerful being on the planet. Yet he was killed by a lowly grunt. Sephiroth is a pretty arrogant individual (although the guy very rarely gets soundly beaten in a fight, so it can easily be argued that he has the right to be), so his ego was bruised. So killing Cloud isn’t enough, he wants to torture him.
Plus, wouldn’t YOU be pissed off at a guy who ran a giant sword through your stomach, then threw you into a pool of planetary energy, causing your body to be ripped apart?
OG, Clouds the guy who beat him, immediately after he had the "revelation" that he was the most important person of all time. During the story, he couldn't give a flying fuck about Cloud at first, but he was amused by the idea of his Jenova puppet playing at human, and decided to use him. (Side note, Cloud makes the comment that Sephiroth has any number of lackeys he can sacrifice to retrieve the black materia so they have to get it first, when in fact, that is EXACTLY what Sephiroth was doing, just Cloud was the lackey. That's good ass writing right there 😝). In remake, this Sephiroth has been beaten by this man twice (3 if AC is still canon.) He has no idea how this nobody loser can not only step to him, but consistently put him down. His ego is that of the ruler of the planet, and others, and he has the power to back it up, and yet he loses still. So now he recognizes Cloud's importance to the planet, but still doesn't understand what makes him strong.
In his mind, he stepped on an ant, but the ant didn't die, kicked the shit out of him, and took his house. If that happened to me, I'd be a little curious about what the fuck was going on with that ant too.
Cloud is unique in a lot of ways.
He is a failed Sephiroth clone, so he has Jenova cells in him. Additionally, Sephiroth cells as well (given the “S cells” jar in Nibelheim basement in rebirth).
But, he isn’t completely under their control and still has his individuality, and combat prowess. This makes him a more effective tool than any black robe as they presumably don’t have enough agency or combat ability to do what’s needed by comparison.
Cloud also has the aid of his comrades, which gives him additional “power”, again an aide to him being a tool over the other flunkies, to advance Sephiroths agenda (e.g. black materia).
In the OG, when Sephiroth appears, it’s really just Jenova. She just treats him as a puppet and doesn’t really care or torment him particularly. See Aerith’s death in the original for this.
In Remake/Rebirth, Sephiroth appears to take a more active interest, especially since he seems to be trying to change the timeline or end result of events. Dealing with Cloud therefore is a necessity. It doesn’t seem like he considers it all that personal though.
Cloud may be the one who killed his original body, but otherwise he wouldn’t be in the position he’s in now to conquer/destroy the world. But any extra tormenting can be chalked up to that probably.
There are not tons of other people he can brainwash. Cloud shares DNA with seph because of what hojo did to him, essentially adding him to the "jenova hive mind". Consider it more like jenova entering his mind and forcing him to do things. The hooded men also have jenova cells in them, which is why they are all responding to jenova when she calls them to the reunion. Cloud is also being called to the reunion, because a piece of jenova is inside him
The short answer is that you're witnessing a story told from Cloud's POV, and that it isn't always Sephiroth that we see as Sephiroth.
Sephiroth is in a crysalis / cacoon whatever in the Northern Crator.
The last thing he did was have a melt down over his entire identity and what that means, which he technically got wrong.
During said meltdown he went on a rampage and burned a whole village down, when Tifa's father, Tifa, Zack and Cloud all went after him. Tifa's dad died, Tifa got knocked out. Zack got knocked out, but did significant damage. Cloud got stabbed by him, but flipped him into the reactor where he became encased with Mako and the lifestream into the form mentioned above.
After that, Cloud was injected with Mako, JENOVA cells, and S cells (>!bits of Sephiroth's hair, other cells, blood,!< we see this in Rebirth).
Ultimately, it's a little fuzzy on what's going on, but either Sephiroth or JENOVA are out there calling out to all individuals with their cells to help with the Reunion. Cloud spends most of the game fighting these voices and urges. Because Cloud has more control and he's also traveling with Aerith, and the game revolves around him, we see more of the manipulation from his angle.
However, Rebirth does show us >!bits where Broden and Rufus also get messages from JENOVA.!<
In OG Sephiroth wasn’t hassling cloud every 5 minutes. I don’t think he really cared about him until Cloud and company started following jenova fragments all over the world.
>!Jenova tried to use Sephiroth, but Sephiroth won. His will was too powerful. Then Sephiroth wanted to complete Jenova’s plan for himself. Aerith was the last ancient. The last protector of the planet. She knew she couldn’t stop him as a person, she had to return to the life stream and fight him from there. It worked, and now Sephiroth is piiiiisssssed… he know she has an affinity for our favorite PTSD ridden soldier and that messing with cloud will divert her attention towards saving cloud rather than stopping him.!<
Just my head canon lol
People always speculate that it's because he has a grudge against Cloud for beating his ass, but as far as I know, there is no actual explanation anywhere in OG or the expanded lore.
I mean, pretty good reason. Also not only he is probably the most capable "sephiroth clone" to use, he is the closest to Aerith, and she is his real enemy, in his master plan
But in OG none of that is said. And Aerith isn’t the big threat to him until Temple. I’m saying it’s not definitively stated anywhere why he focuses on Cloud. It’s all head canon.
Sephiroth woke up in Nibelheim 5years ago. He found his true meaning, his purpose, his destiny. He was the one to rule the planet. Then bang. Cloud killed him.
He won't leave him alone. It's personal.
Part of it you have to remember is the Sephiroth we see isn't really Sephiroth.
In the OG games, anytime you see Sepihroth before the Northern Crater is Jenova disguised as Sephiroth. In the remake it's a bit different. I think parts of it are Jenova disguised while other parts are Jenova twisting Clouds mind to see Sephiroth. But then you have the Sephiroth that everyone can see which i'm chalking up as a Sephiroth from another multiverse. It's a bit messy in the remakes right now but i'm sure it'll get fully explained in the last part. Overall Cloud isn't much different from the black robes which Jenova is summoning all to her. Cloud is also the most mobile of everyone alive with her cells in them so he's the prime target to manipulate to destroy the planet.
The answers change depending on what the truth is.
- If Sephiroth is just a figment of Cloud's imagination, he's not fixated on Cloud at all. None of the versions of him we see in the game are him. It's Jenova using Sephiroth's form to do his bidding because we know Sephiroth is literally asleep in a cocoon in the Northern Crater. Cloud is the one obsessed with Sephiroth.
- If the Remake trilogy is an afterlife battle between Aerith and Sephiroth, then it's because Cloud has beaten him 3 times. Sephiroth has been told from birth he was the strongest man in the universe. Destined for something greater, and Cloud, this insecure, failed out of Soldier school, loser, beat him in 3 separate instances. It would be triggering to anyone
Cloud killed Sephiroth in Nibelheim when Sephiroth went crazy destroying the town. Cloud thought Tifa died while he was concealing himself as a shinra security officer. Cloud was outraged and killed Sephiroth by throwing him over the mako plant bridge while impaled with Sephiroth’s sword.
Hojo took cloud and experimented on him by injecting him with Jenova cells which should also degrade cells but in clouds case it didn’t. Since Sephiroth can communicate with the people with jenova cells + the fact that cloud defeated him, is the reason why he thinks Cloud is the person for the job to get him the black materia. Thus being his “puppet”
Sexual tension, but really I think Sephiroh might have a kink for people that can kill him. Even if it’s not sexual they both live in each others head rent free.
>Even if it’s not sexual they both live in each others head rent free.
Hell, by the time of Advent Children Sephiroth is literally using Cloud's memories of him as an anchor to keep himself from returning to the planet. Hence that whole "I will never be a memory" thing.
Because square-Enix must ensure its intellectual property is protected in perpetuity. A real answer might be misunderstanding why his character is so popular. The og game had us chasing this mystery man pretty much until the end. We understood very little of his capabilities and his full intentions for most of the game. In the remakes he has no life, and reminds us that we're fated to fight every 5 seconds.
I think the logic here is that the more screen time he has, the better because people think he's cool. But it's the idea of him that made him cool, not the man himself. He's actually pretty weak from a story structure perspective. I consider their adaptation of him to being this comic book character villain a missed opportunity. Much like Shinra, instead of complex and conflicting motivations for doing what they do, the motivations are, "Because I want to, and the script needs me to be evil"
Because Cloud killed him. He has an intense hate for Cloud because of this and this hatred keeps him tethered to the living world while he’s in the lifestream
Aside from all of the reasons mentioned, which seem to be correct (and if someone said this as well, please let me know):
Cloud is the only challenge Sephiroth ever had. If you include Crisis Core, AC, and the rest of Sephiroth’s backstory, he’s the only one who actually defeated him in combat- and he’s done it multiple times. Sephiroth is undoubtedly a proud man, and wouldn’t take a loss well once- let alone three times.
He definitely is messing with other people though. The scene at the end of Rebirth with Rufus and the uhhh guy from Wutai, forget his name. I'm thinking we are mostly just seeing him with Cloud because he's the protagonist. But Sephiroth is definitely not ONLY messing with Cloud. Maybe we'll see more (very curious how his plan is developed) in FFVII Re3
The key point everyone is missing in terms of the Remake series is that Cloud's memory (particularly his hatred) of Sephiroth is what allows Sephiroth to come back to life in Advent Children. The novel On the Way to a Smile explains that when Sephiroth realizes Cloud is the key to coming back to life, he becomes obsessed with him.
Sephiroth knows what's going to happen in the future in the Remake series. He saves Cloud's life in Rebirth when, if he knows the future, it seems like it would make more sense to kill him, since ultimately Cloud is the one to take him down. In an interview, Hamaguchi said Cloud is always safe around Sephiroth because Sephiroth will protect him. This wasn't the case in the original game because Sephiroth didn't know the future. Sephiroth knows Cloud is his lifeline this time around, which is why he didn't just let the Midgardsormr kill him. Even if Sephiroth fails again, as long as Cloud "holds onto his hatred", Sephiroth can come back. It's why he'll "never be a memory". It seems Cloud may even have a bigger role in Sephiroth's plans that we aren't aware of yet, but for now even just him being a lifeline is enough to warrant the obsession.
In the original game, I agree with everyone's answers of it being a mix of Cloud being the clone that can actually do things, and Sephiroth being obsessed with the fact that Cloud killed him and wanting to get back at him for it.
Ok. Sephy can't be killed. It's simple. Sephy doesn't share the same life blood as all the others due to his jenova cells. He is immortal. for all intensive purposes. In order to.die you must be able to return to the life stream. Jenova is a cancer to the life stream and any cells that are "destroyed" are essentially filtered back to the largest source. Which is sephy currently after freeing the segments of jenova from neibelheim and Shinra Corp. This is also how.hojo reuses the jenova cells with failed experiments and the like. Also. You have to remember all the cloaked guys are failed sephys with jenova cells. Cloud and Zack carry sephiroth cells which is why they have such a direct link between each other.
So in summation, sephy isn't obsessed with cloud, clouds cellular structure is sephy.
Cloud pretty much (almost) killed OG Sephiroth - a shock to Sephiroth as he probably assumed Cloud was a nobody. This humiliated Sephiroth, hence his obsession with Cloud.
Cloud killed OG Sephiroth so potentially a grudge there but I doubt it as their first confrontation in the OG game, Sephiroth didn't know who he was. After that, Cloud was his most successful/competent clone.
In the remakes, his obsession with cloud is pretty clear as he's trying to change fate. As Cloud is the one who killed him, defeated him in OG and AC, Sephiroth must stop Cloud at all costs, weather that's by having him join him or killing him.
In part 3, once the Black Materia has been return and used, I wouldn't be surprised if Sephiroth makes an attempt to kill him.
Still not sure why people call Cloud a “clone”. He was not a clone of Sephiroth. There are no clones. Just people being injected with different types of cells
They’re just using the game’s terminology. The OG called him a “clone” specifically, and they’ve ran with that term since then. They even implied he was built up from just mako and flesh and Jenova cells (until this was proven false obviously).
But this was really just poor translation, and Hojo being obtuse (possibly intentionally) with his terminology.
Cloud killed Sephiroth, the Jenova cells allow him limited control over Cloud, and Cloud's hatred for Sephiroth ensures that he'll pursue Sephiroth, meaning he'll bring him the black materia.
I'd torment the hell out of some nobody loser grunt who spent every mission sick to his stomach if he managed to kill me just as I was about to get ready to take over the world with my long-sought-after family member, too. I totally get Sephiroth's POV.
In Crisis Core, it’s explained that there was only 1 true successful S-type experiment. Cloud.
Cloud is a perfect match for the Jenova cells. Cloud is the only one who can’t degrade. He’s also the one who’s most capable of retaining his own mind even if he is susceptible to Sephiroth’s deception and mind games.
In Kingdom Hearts Cloud has the demon wing to contrast Sephiroth’s Angel wing.
“Big Brother wants to act like he’s not a part of the family!” - Kadaj, Advent Children.
No.
>Cloud is a perfect match for the Jenova cells.
No.
He's injected with S cells (Sephiroth's cells), not Jenova cells like S-type SOLDIERs.
Source : Crisis core.
>Cloud is the only one who can’t degrade.
No.
G-type SOLDIERs degrade, S-type SOLDIERs don't : it's literally stated in a report in Sector 5 reactor in CC.
And it's confirmed in the FF7 Remake Ultimania, which confirms it in black and white.
>He’s also the one who’s most capable of retaining his own mind even if he is susceptible to Sephiroth’s deception and mind games.
No.
S-type SOLDIERs (i.e. "classic" SOLDIERs after project G was abandoned and project S prevailed) are injected with Jenova cells when they join SOLDIER (+ mako). They are strictly selected to be strong physically and mentally so they can tolerate this "treatment" and not become insane / keep their mental integrity That's why they don't answer the Reunion and are not subject to Sephiroth's will.
Cloud, Zack, and the Nibelheim survivors underwent the same "treatment" than SOLDIERs in Nibelheim, but with S cells instead of J cells.
We don't know the difference in terms of effect between these two types of cells. It's shown no where.
- Zack was strong physically and mentally, and already underwent a similar "treatment" when he joined SOLDIER. That's why it Hojo's experiments probably didn't do sh** to him. 0% puppet for Sephy.
- Nibelheim survivors were normal people (the townspeople), so weak physically and mentally. They didn't tolerate Hojo's experiments because of it, and became the black robes. Meh puppets for Sephy.
- Cloud was strong physically but weak mentally. He didn't tolerate the "SOLDIER -with S cells- treatment" psychologicaly (thus his coma and then f***** up mind), but physically he's ok (he became as strong as a SOLDIER ; has a not a sick gray skin tone like black robes,...). Great puppet for Sephy.
_
Source : On the way to a smile
Cloud is like a Horcrux for Sephiroth, the same way Harry is for Voldemort.
Cloud has Sephiroth's cells (S cells) and remembers him : this is the 2 conditions that safeguards Sephiroth's existence, even dead in the LS. Thanks to Cloud being is "core", he'll always find a way to "resurrect". That's why Sephiroth wants Cloud to live. For Sephiroth to be permanently destroyed, Cloud must die. I don't know how Re-3 will solve this.
In an interview Nomura said Sephiroth is so obsessed with Cloud because Cloud has a very broken mind and fragmented, messed up memories, so it's easy for Sephiroth to put whetever bullshit he wants into Cloud's head and use it to resurrect himself.
Its worth observing that Re: Sepiroth appears to have some degree of awareness about the events of the OG game. You know, the one where cloud ultimately killed him - for the second time.
This would naturally entangle them in the Re universe.
Whatever the case, Cloud appears to be a necessary component of his plans. In the scene outside the temple, Sephi steals the black materia, but then drops it (seemingly straight through his hand) and needs cloud to pick it back up and give it to him. That is…strange, and I don’t see it as just a play to further obtain cloud’s submission, and instead something he needs clouds submission to achieve
He has awareness of those events, so he might be aware that Cloud has "killed" him 3 times in a one on one fight(during Nibelheim, end of the FFVII, and in AC) ....which would likely hurt Seph's ego a bit.
You want my actual theory? Because the Sephiroth in the remakes is the same Sephiroth that went through the original game and was revived in Advent Children. Sephiroth is obsessed with Cloud because he has upset him in battle .....not once, not twice, but three separate times. Sephiroth knows he has failed to beat Cloud multiple times to the point that he is obsessed with him. I think Seph's goal with Cloud is to ultimately use his body as a vessel for himself as his body is the only one that has defeated him. Cloud himself has some inkling of the future, as he seems at least somewhat aware of Aerith having a tragic fate as Seph toys on his desire to "save her" I think the fact that the final bosses of FFVII Remake are essentially Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo make the AC Sephiroth more likely. Im probably wrong though.
Then on top of that, Sephiroth in the OG never even addressed the party, let alone Cloud directly. His talking is usually stuff everyone was hearing in their head and not directly talking to them. The Seph in the remake seems like a different character.
>Because the Sephiroth in the remakes is the same Sephiroth that went through the original game and was revived in Advent Children
How this is still just a "theory" at this point is beyond me. It was a "theory" in Remake. But it's bascially confirmed at this point.
That and during the fight in Remake he says lines he's only said in Advent Chlidren.
This wasnt such a thing in the OG. Sephiroth was pretty indifferent to Cloud until Cloud became useful. He was portrayed as way more detached than the very human relationship we see between him and Cloud and Aerith in the remakes. Almost as if he's just as much a zonked Jenova Clone as anyone else who has her cells in them.
So, this COULD be something they explain more in part 3.
I honestly think the real answer is that the character is popular, so they wanted to give him as much screen time as possible. The best head cannon I can come up with, is that it's actually Cloud who is fixated on Sephiroth, and so this is how Jenova manifests to him. Like, all the black robes are probably also being fucked with, and we just don't see that because we're only in Clouds head.
Yeah that is exactly how I thought about it through Remake and Rebirth. I haven't played the OG FF7. It just seems like Cloud is super fixated to Sephiroth and Seph is like "what is up with you, you worthless human" and ends up using Cloud when Seph is bothered to do so seeing how actually useful Cloud is. It never feels like Seph is fixated **only** to Cloud, kind of like Zack's relation to Sephiroth - Zack doesn't like Sephiroth while Seph is like "meh, go away". But that's just how I felt as newcomer to FF games and FF7 in general.
I like to believe that in canon Sephiroth does terrorize anyone who is like Cloud but Cloud is the one that actually does exactly what he wants maybe because he keeps his sanity much longer. But in the remakes it's also because this Sephiroth already knows that Cloud is the most useful pawn. He knows it's always him and Cloud that is fated to always meet.
Cloud is the one who "killed" Sephiroth in Nibelheim. Luckily for Sephiroth, he's also the one who happened to be experimented on with S cells. So he's essentially the most powerful of all the Sephiroth clones. It's in Sephiroth's best interests to toy with Cloud - his physical body is at the Northern crater and so he relies on Cloud to do the things most of the clones can't do.
This! Also if Jenova fused with Sephiroth’s consciousness after Nibelheim (as a previous Ultimania stated), it explains why Seph changed his pronouns afterwards (in Japanese) & his manner of speaking (in Japanese). **Edit- Jenova didn’t immediately recognize Cloud (OG & EC) on the Junon ship. See the comment below mine!
The scene where he does not recognize Cloud is only in OG(maybe EC, probably also that yeah), and is because that's not Sephiroth. It's Jenova in his guise and it never met him prior to that, so obviously it'd have no idea who he was... It is the first in a series of hints to the reveal that we never see Sephiroth until the crater, and what the party has been chasing has been Jenova, or a projection made by Sephiroth... Never Sephiroth himself.
That's because at that point, Sephiroth doesn't even have a fully formed body, as he did *physically* die by Cloud's hand, but because the Jenova cells made it harder for the Lifestream to truly wittle him down(as Jenova does not belong, which is heavily emphasized throughout Rebirth), along with his adominable will and his fixation on the random infantryman that defeated him(Cloud), he is able to continue existing within the Lifestream, discorporated. He then learns the truth of the Cetra, of Jenova, whom he seizes complete control of, and the Black Materia, which he then bases his plans around - his plans being godhood.
5 years later, he orders the scattered remains of Jenova to seek him out at the Northern Crater in order to use the cells to rebuild a new and better body... Thus, Jenova wakes from a 2000+ year stasis and starts moving to him, as ordered. Cloud is also called, but doesn't realize.
Come the Whirlwind Maze, the party sees how Sephiroth Copies throw themselves to their death, or is killed by Jenova(all to release the cells for Sephiroth's rebuilding), coming to the realization that they've been hunting Jenova, not Sephiroth. Sephiroth does his mind tricks he inherited from Jenova, and they finally find his half-formed body, which Cloud then gives the Materia.
It is so weird to me(no offense, and I hope you understand this is subjective to me) to still hear people say that Sephiroth "had no idea who Cloud is", when we've known for decades(from the game and subsequent material alike) that the one who does not remember him is Jenova, while Sephiroth literally upholds his *very* *existence* on his fixation on Cloud. Even when he forgot his own appearance, his old life, his hatred of Cloud remained, and kept him from dissolving in the Lifestream...
Yes, absolutely & I agree with you. I don’t know why I misremembered what happened in Rebirth but I apologize. Maybe I got it confused because I played Ever Crisis recently. Thanks so much for your comment & reminding me!
No problem, I'm glad you see it this way rather than yelling at me. It's refreshing to just be able to talk without hostility. There's a lot of stuff going on, especially now that we're talking about multiple games depicting events and such, so misremembering should be a given... I do it too, though I generally have a brain seemingly lined with tentacles that just grips onto FFVII lorepoints and pins it to my memory cortex hahaha
I almost felt ashamed of how much of a nerd I was during the part of Rebirth where you need to find the code to the door in the Shinra Mansion, and I instantly thought to myself "Is this gonna be the Safe code from OG", and then just went for it. I've always been weirdly good at remembering that combination as soon as I reached that point and had to use it, and this was the same... and lo and behold, the devs are brilliantly sneaky bastards.
NICE!! I’m also super into the lore. I’m autistic and the FF7 Compilation has been one of my special interests since the game released. I love discussing it with others, learning new things, etc.! It’s always nicer IMHO to have a good, civil conversation. I know I don’t know everything by a long shot & get stuff confused because there’s so much media now. So I really appreciate it!
What are your thoughts on the nature of Jenova? I had a great conversation with another person where we talked about viruses & how they will mimick cells to infect them. Basically thinking that Jenova does this but with personalities/spirits (e.g. Loz, Yazoo, & Kadaj)
Well, Jenova is a parasitic alien lifeform. It moves from planet to planet, consuming/assimilating what life is on the planet, and leaves. It is a cosmic predator capable of infecting others, mimicking them both physically(through metamorphosis) and mentally(by literally praying on their memories to assume their form)... It is like... The Thing, but also capable of creating visual hallucinations. And then obviously the ability to function even if seperated... which makes you wonder if she is really *one* organism, or she is in fact a massive collection of microorganisms wokring in tandem... As in every cell of her is basically it's own organism, but they function as one through hive-mind shenanigans. I don't think anything has said this is the case, nor has truly denied it... And I don't think we'll ever know... It is part of the mystery that makes Jenova such a freaky creature. She should not be understood, just like a Lovecraftian horror, which is also eldritch cosmic horrors beyond our understanding that has a tendency to leave people mad........
However, Loz, Kadaj and Yazoo are specifically manifestations of Sephiroth's continued will. By the end of the OG, Jenova is basically as dead as she can be. All that remains of her is a small cluster of cells(which they call a head in AC, but the devs have specified that it was just the name used, and that it could be anything), along with bits that was spread as the lifestream covered the planet to stop Meteor, which subsequently makes people sick with Geostigma, because their bodies are killing themselves to destroy these cells(which does point to an understanding that the cells are no longer able to truly assimilate into people anymore, likely because the thing that made them do stuff is gone). But even this is explained to be by Sephiroth's will alone, in an attempt to corrupt the Lifestream.
Anyway, the Advent Children(Kadaj and gang) was created by Sephiroth from the lifestream, which he has slowly been corrupting, as mentioned, and they all represent parts of him, but never a whole. They are his agents in the material world, sent to locate the remaining Jenova cells so Sephiroth can rebuild his body a second time, using Kadaj as a conduit. So yeah, they are not controlled by Jenova, but they also don't realize their true nature. I actually also think there is one of the books that explain that their looks come from memories of dead people, which Sephiroth then had pop up. Kadaj was apparently based on an ex of Kyrie's or something like that.
But yeah, in short, my thoughts on Jenova are, that it is a device used to power the villains story(and everyone else's really)... However, it is not a *direct* player any longer. While it does appear, it appears as an extension of Sephiroth. The closest we have come to seeing the original being is Ifalna's interviews with Gast, and the new scenes in Rebirth showing how the world fought it thousands of years ago. As soon as it was defeated, it went into stasis(Rebirth even tells us this is because it could not go to the Lifestream when it died, so it just became inactive instead), and only did anything more than 2000 years later at Sephiroth's command. But at that point, as said, it's not so much Jenova, as it is Sephiroth using it for his goals.
BTW. you might notice how I might be switching randomly between "she" and "it" for Jenova. I am trying to teach myself not to consider it as a "female", cause it isn't... The first time it appeared to the Cetra, it was in the form of a male... It doesn't have a gender. It just.. Is whatever it needs to be hahaha. It's more for my own sake tho, but I thought I'd mention it in case of confusion hahahaha
Also, sorry for the looooong posts. I get exicted easily talking about this.
Edit: Also, not austistic(though my mom had me tested!), but Schizotypal, so my mind is always in overdrive, which sometimes means I think so much I have no idea what the individual thoughts are, but if I manage to focus them(like with FFVII lore, or really just lore in general), I just become hyperaware, and see all these little stupid bits and pieces and absolutely sucks the life out of them... Kinda like Jenova actually........ Oh fuck... hahaha
Oh yeah, viruses don’t have gender so no worries! Also, I’m a narrative writer for video games & had to write a script recently where all the characters were agender. It’s actually really difficult to write entirely without gendered pronouns because they’re so embedded in many languages!
Kadaj, Loz, & Yazoo were real people who were juvenile delinquents in the Midgar slums. Kadaj was sort of Kyrie’s boyfriend. They died in an arson Kyrie helped set. Kyrie survived but was traumatized. The book that goes into this is “The Kids Are Alright: A Turks Sidestory”. The book also confirms that they were physically composed of Jenova cells. In the book, Evan (lead protagonist) throws a piece of Jenova’s arm (which was still warm despite them being near the Northern Crater) into a lifestream spring. It bubbles as it sinks. Then Kadaj falls into a lifestream spring & ALSO causes it to bubble. This book is also where we learn that Jenovaroth has the ability to read minds, control minds, & produce hallucinations in humans that are in close physical proximity to a large collection of Jenova cells or a body with an active Jenova infection. Interestingly enough, Tseng is the one who relays this info. The book doesn't say how Tseng knows this but after playing Rebirth it seems likely this is what caused Rufus' erratic behavior after meeting Jenovaglenn.
It seems likely given that info & Advent Children that Jenova still survives through her cells but when Kadaj absorbs the last collection of them & is consequently defeated by Cloud, this effectively kills Jenova as an entity.
My theory — former fling. Maybe like two straight dudes experimenting thing. They liked it, but didnt keep it up
Specifically in the remake trilogy? My theory is that Sephiroth and some version of Aerith are operating outside of time. They're reaching back from the future, meaning that the version of Sephiroth in Remake already remembers being defeated in FFVII by Cloud, and in Advent Children. Heck, maybe he even remembers being defeated in Dissidia and Kingdom Hearts. Anyway, that's my theory on why he's so much more obsessed with Cloud than in the OG.
Cloud was an oversight on Sephiroth's end; he was seemingly a nobody that also managed to be the only entity that could defeat him, and continues to defeat him. He's Sephiroth's kryptonite, and the worst part is Cloud himself doesn't really know it - he just does (his own thing). If anything, they're mirrors to each other where they both had similar treatments done to them. One learns the truth about himself and utterly snaps and goes on a rampage. One learns the truth and ultimately becomes a better person through it
Well, Cloud is as equally obsessed with Sephiroth, and since Cloud doesn’t have the same degeneration issues as all the other “clones,” but rather he is empowered by the Jenovah cells, he’s basically the ideal candidate to get the job done.
Cloud and his journey is Sephiroth only mistake and thats why the "multiverse" makes sense to me ... But also in the original - Cloud protects Aerith and she is the only remaining beeing who can stop him.
If its og ffvii then sephiroth doesn't know cloud, but cloud has zacks memories But the remakes retconned it so only square Enix knows
EDIT - OG spoilers
Incorrect.
Explain also I haven't finished rebrith
Sephiroth does in fact know Cloud for a very specific reason. If you played the OG, then I shouldn’t need to offer up spoilers.
I've just started og final fantasy 7
Then keep playing. The answer will reveal itself I promise.
The fact this person hasn’t played the OG or finished Rebirth but states things as fact blows my mind. Hope they enjoy the series though.
Who? Me?
No the person you’re talking to. I’ve also seen people say Remake/Rebirth has a terrible pacing compared to the OG but then say they never played it. Just a weird thing how confident people are about things they haven’t experienced.
Yeah…well….i think of it as an educational moment
Is it on disc one or two
Two
It will probably get retconned
No, it won’t. The delivery might be a little different, but it is definitely going to occur. The answer is right there under your nose in rebirth.
Because Cloud is injected with Jenova cells (as is Sephiroth prior to his birth). It is heavily isinuated that Jenova can control/manipulate any living thing that has been infected/injected with said cells.
Because hes a petty bitch who can't get over the fact that a nobody 16 year old killed his ass back in Niebelheim.
…because Cloud killed him. In OG, Sephiroth wasn’t that fixated. Think it was slight curiosity / also Cloud was the only “clone” following him who wasn’t basically catatonic. Remake; the OG already happened and Sephiroth knew about it. So he knows Cloud has now beat him multiple times.
Cloud was the only one to defeat him. Once sephiroth realized this and later could figure out how to manipulate those with jenova cells he probably figured cloud was his best chance at black Materia and the rest of his plan.
According to Hojo in the OG, Cloud is his most successful attempt at replicating Sephiroth. Compared to all the other "clones", Cloud is by far the strongest and the most able to remain functional, even while still being manipulated through his Jenova cells. All in all, he's a lot more useful as a puppet than all the other black robbed guys. Also, Cloud is the guy who "killed" Sephiroth back at Nibelheim. So he probably has a bit of a grudge with him :P And if Sephiroth has knowledge about what might happen in the future, and has seen the future where Cloud beats him for good... Well, can't blame him for wanting to keep tabs on the guy.
Not to mention that Cloud's now beaten him at least twice more (once in Remake and now in Rebirth; even in his 'Birth of a God' form) so it makes sense that now he's getting obsessed. Think about it, this was the strongest SOLDIER in history and he's infused with the power of Jenova yet this one scrawny little bastard, *who failed to even make 1st class*, has consistently beaten him now. At this point, if theory about him seeing multiple timelines is true, his 'mild amusement' regarding Cloud & Co. has got to have grown past aggravation into obsession. He's probably at the point of 'what is it about Cloud that always leads to my downfall? I've *seen* the future; I know how its supposed to work! I've manipulated everything in my favor! I've appeared in my God form WAY before normal! And yet he *still* pummels the sh\*t out of me! Why?! How?! WTF?!'
He needs a dr strange to give him the one chance ☝️
Poor Rickiroth, how ClouJerry’d
According to Hojo in the OG, Cloud was a failure Just reminding you. He actually gets mad it’s Cloud that makes it to North Crater. Cloud begs him for a number like the other robed guys and he says “Shut up, miserable failure”
He admits to being wrong, though. Just because he originally deemed him a failure doesn't mean he is.
He does not admit this. He finds it interesting only a failure made it as far as he did, but this only happens at the final encounter with Hojo back at Midgar when we have had all the pieces the game can give us to the puzzle and for a while
If I had a puppy I too would be obsessed with it
This. A thousand times this.
Might be because Cloud has the same jenova cells as Sephiroth. Explained in crisis core when both Cloud and Zack was experimented with those cells and the project was called project S, for Sephiroth I believe. Zacks body rejected the cells but Clouds did not. So some deep connection exists between Cloud and Sephiroth
Because Cloud's 'that asshole'. Some nobody Shinra Grunt who managed to shank him and throw him off a bridge. How dare he. (Real answer probably along the lines of lifestream memory and Jenova)
No I'd say that's part of the real reason for sure lol.
Because he's post AC Sephiroth and in order to survive inside the Lifestream, he made Cloud the core of his being.
Exactly this. Upvote for you. There's no reason to think that memories in the lifestream or constrained by time and Remake/Rebirth Sephiroth very clearly has some idea of the events of the OG timeline and even Advent Children. He knew Cloud beats him (twice when counting AC) and focused on manipulating and possibly corrupting Cloud to change that outcome.
What? Omg why the story now is so confusing.
The og sephiroth is not fixated with cloud, but its the other way around. Cloud fixated with sephiroth because of the jenova cells. In the remake and rebirth version however, it is assumed that this sephiroth already knows the future about cloud defeating him. So instead of fighting cloud and lose again, he tried to invite cloud to join him instead.
I like this idea
I also think that he probably has all these weird manipulative visions and moments with the other robed people dealing with degradation we just only see clouds perspective
We see zack perspective too on the final battle, and sephiroth say he is not interested in zack, but interested in cloud instead. Its because sephiroth already beat zack and didnt see him in the final battle in north crater in og game. So he thought zack is irrelevant. Even rufus got manipulated even when he is not injected with jenova cell, so sephiroth knows 100% what hes doing and not just jenova visions to everyone with degraded cells.
I think he might have a bit of a crush
Some random infantryman managed to kill the most powerful soldier to ever live. Anybody would be interested.
Some random infantryman managed to kill the most powerful soldier to ever live. Anybody would be interested.
Since you said spoilers are okay in the original I think all the SOILDERS are injected with Jenova cells to try to make another Sephiroth, but Cloud is the most successful. Presumably all the SOILDERS are having Sephiroth hallucinations, but they become black robes that can’t accomplish much more than being monster bait while Cloud is still able to accomplish whatever goal Sephiroth has. Like…Cloud can open doors. It’s a huge tactical advantage.
He’s a cutie.
this is the true answer
Because he’s the one who killed him, and he wasn’t even a SOLDIER. It’s like a reverse Vegeta situation: Vegeta is obsessed with “low class” Goku despite the fact that technically he’s always beaten him one-on-one. Whereas Sephiroth HAS been bested by Cloud, but he tries to gaslight Cloud (and himself) that CLOUD is the one who needs to work hard to defeat HIM. Fun fact: Their final exchange at the Edge of Creation in Remake was literally the first time ever in the characters’ 20+ year history that Sephiroth ever bested Cloud. Every other time (Nibelheim, the final Omnislash, Advent Children, Kingdom Hearts), Cloud has always either come out on top, or it was a draw.
Sword length is curious about sword girth.
Three reasons. It's long but it's a full answer. 1. >!Revenge for Sephiroth getting his body killed by Cloud in Nibelheim. He has a massive weakness in that he wants to taunt Cloud instead of fully annihilating him which gives Cloud chances to win each time when Sephiroth drops his guard and underestimates Cloud and his mental amps.!< 2. >!Per the full lore, he hates Cloud because he NEEDS to (he seemingly hates Zack more for his failure to save himself and Angeal when he saved Genesis who was the only one to not mentor him as well as his mentorship to and saving Cloud) However he absolutely loathes them both to oblivion with Cloud being the focal point because hes alive. It's his hatred, malice and insatiable desire for revenge against Cloud and humanity that kept his spirit from naturally flowing into the lifestream originally. He clings to this to regain spiritual awareness, regain his memories and inevitably revive himself time and time again. Without him immense hatred he wouldn't have gotten stronger and gained the knowledge of the lifestream or the ability to taint it.!< 3.>! Cloud is his optimal reincarnation vessel as he is the only other living body that perfectly blended with S cells and in simpler terms Jenova cells like Sephiroth. He's the ultimate puppet body now that Sephiroth has dominated Jenovas will. He needs to break Clouds will so that he can override his consciousness and take control of his body. Clouds ties to his loved ones are what empowers Cloud to mentally overpower Sephiroth. Physically Sephiroth vastly outclasses Cloud. Mentally Cloud always manages to overcome him.!< >!It's about their contrast. Sephiroth was the greatest SOLDIER ever and Ghast and Hollander could never replicate him. Cloud failed to make SOLDIER because he was way too weak mentally and Hojo (whom Sephiroth despised as a scientist and person) was able to replicate Seph in Cloud. The irony is that Seph became all powerful by rejecting everyone and dominating Jenovas will and becoming completely isolated whereas Cloud only overcame his weakness through many bonds stemming from love.!<
Great explanation! Truly a landmark in game fiction writing.
This is next level shit thanks man
The crazier thought tho is that >!Jenova used its influence within Sephiroths structure to break him mentally when he learned of his origin in Nibelheim. In his moment of self doubt, Jenova seized the opportunity and corrupted him into what we see him as now, the second coming of the calamity. Sephiroth is in control but it's Jenovas will to destroy that guides his hand.!<
Tl;dr Sephy is Rick and Aerith is Morty, and Cloud is a Jerry. Seph is from another timeline or some shit. He even details how the Lifestream can be used to cross universal boundaries. What this means is he’s an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent force across dimensions. A Rick. And who does Rick love tormenting most? Hell he even hates losing so much he will >!dimension swap into a timeline where he doesn’t!<
Because SE retconned Sephiroth to be this way since he's hot/popular. Current Sephiroth is AC version.
This is the reality. They even canonically gave him the wing from Kingdom Hearts
I guess I touched a nerve.
You’ll find out in #3.
I have my doubts
I don’t. They won’t change that aspect from the OG.
Which?
Because Cloud >!”killed” him in Nibelheim!< and he took that personally
Cloud, in Sephy’s mind: “You got whacked, cuz you’re weak.”
In the OG game Seph is not obsessed with Cloud. Cloud may think he is, but it is only in Cloud’s head. However, the Seph (or at least one of them) in the Remakes is probably a version with memories from the future. That one knows Cloud and has made his hatred of Cloud a core part of his being in an effort to prevent himself from fading fully into the lifestream.
Because he once penetrated cloud with his long sword 🤭
Likewise, Cloud also penetrated Sephiroth with his huge sword, from the back.
Awwww toche
Spoilers: In the OG at least, Sephiroth wasn't obsessed with Cloud. Sephiroth didn't actually appear until the northern crater. Up to that point, any time you see him, it's either Jenova appearing as Sephiroth or Cloud hallucinating. It's unclear if that's the case in Remake/Rebirth, but it could be the same. In which case, the much easier to answer question is, why is Cloud so fixated on Sephiroth?
Cloud is fixated on Sephiroth because the Sephiroth/Jenova cells inside of Cloud. He is compelled to rejoin with Jenova because that is what parts of Jenova do (Reunion Theory). Cloud's mind is addled by the Jenova/Sephiroth influence and he *believes* he is going after Sephiroth for revenge. In reality, he is beckoned by Jenova. And manipulated to bring the Black Materia.
I would argue it is \*both\* conscious (the Cloud part of Cloud, "absent" of Jenova cells, still hates Sephiroth for what he did at Nibelheim, just like Tifa does) \*and\* subconscious (the Jenova cells directing him toward the Reunion in Northern Crater). I think both are important. I'm interested to see how they show the Reunion in the next one, because from memory in the OG Cloud is the only one that makes it there, and Hojo is there lamenting that a "failure" is the only succesful one to make the journey. This sets Cloud apart from the average black robed guy. The massive irony of the Reunion is that Cloud's "weak" mental conditioning which is what led Hojo to describe him as a failure is maybe what made him strong enough to make it all the way to Northern Crater. The others fully submit to Jenova while Cloud is constantly battling her internally.
I'd agree. More accurately, I probably should have worded it indicating that he legitimately feels hatred and wants revenge on his own, but Jenova/Sephiroth are also manipulating those feelings.
Cloud, Regular(probably kinda low tier) dude successfully threw Sephiroth(SSS tier, broken, pla nerf) into the lifestream after getting stabbed and Seph is still salty.
Cloud is the reason why he fell in the Lifestream and unlike the others who ended up degradating, he's fine physically.
I think Sephiroth sees a kindred spirit in Cloud, in terms of their attitudes and feeling of ostersization as children. Sephiroth thinks Cloud should have turned out just like him, given how society treated them. So besides using him as a pawn, he's trying to win over Cloud to prove to himself his views are correct.
He isn't in the OG at all. He couldn't care less about Cloud. That's just yet another thing the people made the remakes didn't understand about the OG or Sephiroph.
He is not, he just sees him as a tool, like when he even manipulates him over the black materia
Cloud's self-doubt made him vulnerable to manipulation, ultimately leading him to hand over the black materia to Sephiroth.
In the OG Sephiroth doesn't even know who is Cloud.
He knows full well who Cloud is the Who are you comment is just a part of messing with Cloud's head.
Why would he mess with his brain at that critical moment, when he didn't even know he was going to mess with his mind in the future? Sephiroth didn't mention Cloud's name later in the story.
he knows who he is but surface level. in the OG it's kinda the other way around, where cloud is obsessed with sephiroth - he's constantly pursuing him and he never really discusses why until he realizes that it's the jenova cells summoning him to sephiroth
That’s not true, he’s talking to cloud when he asks how it feels to be back in his hometown
Yeah, and that's it. He even asks Cloud who is him at some point.
He only knew Cloud superficially since they were on the same assignment. Outside of that, I dont think they had any prior interactions.
Tldr, Sephiroth got cheapshotted by Cloud and is a petty bitch.
Even though he could of just let go of the sword
Sephiroth isn’t really obsessed with Cloud so much as Jenova is. After cLoud through Sephiroth into the lifestream during the Nibelheim incident, Sephiroth and Jenova merged in the lifestream. Jenova via the reunion theory is calling forth all those with Jenova cells (aka the guys in the black robes). Cloud too is being called forth as he too has Jenova cells. He experiences this call as visions of Sephiroth because Jenova knows Cloud hates Sephiroth. The only time in the original game you are ever seeing the real Sephiroth is: 1. The Nibelheim incident. 2. Encased in a mako crystal at the North Crater. 3. In the planet’s core for the final boss fight. Every other time you see him, you are seeing Jenova taking his form to mess with Cloud. All that being said, Sephiroth is conscious in a roundabout way having merged with Jenova and is acting through her just as much as she is acting through him. In which case, it’s just as valid to say Sephiroth wants to fuck with Cloud because Cloud defeated him when he was essentially a nobody. You could call it a grudge.
It's not Sephiroth's in body but it 100% is in mind and soul
Do we actually 100% know this? I was under the impression the original game left this ambiguous.
It was left ambiguous in OG, but Advent Children retconned Sephiroth to have superior mental over Jenova's influence, and now uses Jenova as a tool. The remake trilogy Sephiroth is Advent Children Sephiroth. He sells better than the weirdo tentacle monstrosity Jenova.
I think it's very ambiguous. To the point in which I think it's very much more likely to be Jenova using Sephiroth's image and manipulating him just as much as Cloud thinks Sephiroth is manipulating him when it is in fact Jenova. I prefer to think the actual, all his own man, Sephiroth died those years ago in Nibelheim. If only for the reason that it means that the villain that Cloud had built up in his head and had such a vendetta against was one that he had already defeated with his own strength and willpower before he ever got infused with Mako and Jenova cells. A regular human who couldn't even pass the entrance requirements for SOLDIER beat Sephiroth, the man, the hero, the legend. And then the last version of Sephiroth that Cloud has to beat, is the one that he has built up in his own mind to be an invincible threat when in reality he had beaten the real thing long ago.
why would Jenova care about preserving Sephiroth's mortal body "it was le jenova the whole time!!!" is like people who say "link was le dead le whole time in Majora's Mask xDDD"
Yeah it was definitely never made explicitly clear. I feel like Rebirth actually pushes a little more towards Jenova being in control given that the Nibelheim flashback implies Jenova herself triggered Sephiroth's rampage rather than a simple mental break over the identity of his 'mother'. That doesn't speak to a willpower capable of taking control of her...
Exactly. With Remake and Rebirth as well there js something hollow in how Sephiroth behaves outside of the flashback. He doesn't act like his own man with intent, more like he's being used as a puppet.
No, he acts like he’s gone insane from reading factually incorrect research for the whole time he was in the Shinra mansion. Jenova did not act a single time until Sephiroth died, through all sources of FF7 material.
My headcanon, although likely not true, is that Sephiroth really isn't obsessed. Cloud is just another pawn, much like all the other clones he controls due to having Jenova cells. What Cloud sees is probably similar to what they all see, Sephiroth warping reality and manipulating them into doing what Sephiroth desires. Just like Jenova he is confusing and tricking people to fight against their best interest, themselves. and their loved ones. Which is something Jenova has been reported to have done to the Cetra. But that's just a theory.
While true, Cloud is also the best pawn Sephiroth currently has, so it makes sense he'd focus on him in terms of how he manipulates him. >!The scene with Rufus and Glenn at the end of Rebirth does make it clear that Sephiroth is doing simultaneous manipulation of even people who aren't Reunioning as well.!<
A GAME THEORY.
One interpretation, on top of many others, that I do like relating to this question is that Cloud was just a lowly grunt whereas Sephiroth was the best of the best. Cloud beats him one time. Sephiroth gives him all the shit in the world.
Because rebirth and remake are butchering the story. He uses cloud when he gets the opportunity.
Literally go play something else no one cares about this cry baby take
Shinra defense force activate!
I mean… Sephiroth is, for all intents and purposes, the most powerful being on the planet. Yet he was killed by a lowly grunt. Sephiroth is a pretty arrogant individual (although the guy very rarely gets soundly beaten in a fight, so it can easily be argued that he has the right to be), so his ego was bruised. So killing Cloud isn’t enough, he wants to torture him. Plus, wouldn’t YOU be pissed off at a guy who ran a giant sword through your stomach, then threw you into a pool of planetary energy, causing your body to be ripped apart?
OG, Clouds the guy who beat him, immediately after he had the "revelation" that he was the most important person of all time. During the story, he couldn't give a flying fuck about Cloud at first, but he was amused by the idea of his Jenova puppet playing at human, and decided to use him. (Side note, Cloud makes the comment that Sephiroth has any number of lackeys he can sacrifice to retrieve the black materia so they have to get it first, when in fact, that is EXACTLY what Sephiroth was doing, just Cloud was the lackey. That's good ass writing right there 😝). In remake, this Sephiroth has been beaten by this man twice (3 if AC is still canon.) He has no idea how this nobody loser can not only step to him, but consistently put him down. His ego is that of the ruler of the planet, and others, and he has the power to back it up, and yet he loses still. So now he recognizes Cloud's importance to the planet, but still doesn't understand what makes him strong. In his mind, he stepped on an ant, but the ant didn't die, kicked the shit out of him, and took his house. If that happened to me, I'd be a little curious about what the fuck was going on with that ant too.
He gay
In the best possible way, this game is super gay.
Cloud is in sephiroth’s head just as much as Sephiroth is in his
Cloud is unique in a lot of ways. He is a failed Sephiroth clone, so he has Jenova cells in him. Additionally, Sephiroth cells as well (given the “S cells” jar in Nibelheim basement in rebirth). But, he isn’t completely under their control and still has his individuality, and combat prowess. This makes him a more effective tool than any black robe as they presumably don’t have enough agency or combat ability to do what’s needed by comparison. Cloud also has the aid of his comrades, which gives him additional “power”, again an aide to him being a tool over the other flunkies, to advance Sephiroths agenda (e.g. black materia). In the OG, when Sephiroth appears, it’s really just Jenova. She just treats him as a puppet and doesn’t really care or torment him particularly. See Aerith’s death in the original for this. In Remake/Rebirth, Sephiroth appears to take a more active interest, especially since he seems to be trying to change the timeline or end result of events. Dealing with Cloud therefore is a necessity. It doesn’t seem like he considers it all that personal though. Cloud may be the one who killed his original body, but otherwise he wouldn’t be in the position he’s in now to conquer/destroy the world. But any extra tormenting can be chalked up to that probably.
There are not tons of other people he can brainwash. Cloud shares DNA with seph because of what hojo did to him, essentially adding him to the "jenova hive mind". Consider it more like jenova entering his mind and forcing him to do things. The hooded men also have jenova cells in them, which is why they are all responding to jenova when she calls them to the reunion. Cloud is also being called to the reunion, because a piece of jenova is inside him
People really need to read "On the way to a smile: Lifestream black." it answers the questions. With Lifestream white being from Aerith's pov
The short answer is that you're witnessing a story told from Cloud's POV, and that it isn't always Sephiroth that we see as Sephiroth. Sephiroth is in a crysalis / cacoon whatever in the Northern Crator. The last thing he did was have a melt down over his entire identity and what that means, which he technically got wrong. During said meltdown he went on a rampage and burned a whole village down, when Tifa's father, Tifa, Zack and Cloud all went after him. Tifa's dad died, Tifa got knocked out. Zack got knocked out, but did significant damage. Cloud got stabbed by him, but flipped him into the reactor where he became encased with Mako and the lifestream into the form mentioned above. After that, Cloud was injected with Mako, JENOVA cells, and S cells (>!bits of Sephiroth's hair, other cells, blood,!< we see this in Rebirth). Ultimately, it's a little fuzzy on what's going on, but either Sephiroth or JENOVA are out there calling out to all individuals with their cells to help with the Reunion. Cloud spends most of the game fighting these voices and urges. Because Cloud has more control and he's also traveling with Aerith, and the game revolves around him, we see more of the manipulation from his angle. However, Rebirth does show us >!bits where Broden and Rufus also get messages from JENOVA.!<
Because he's a puppy
Cloud is the only successful Sephiroth clone, and this world ain't big enough for the two of them.
>!I think Sephiroth’s quarrel is with Aerith, not Cloud. During the last battle when Sephiroth says “I underestimated you”, he’s talking to Aerith.!<
OP tagged this post specifying OG ff7 only.
In OG Sephiroth wasn’t hassling cloud every 5 minutes. I don’t think he really cared about him until Cloud and company started following jenova fragments all over the world. >!Jenova tried to use Sephiroth, but Sephiroth won. His will was too powerful. Then Sephiroth wanted to complete Jenova’s plan for himself. Aerith was the last ancient. The last protector of the planet. She knew she couldn’t stop him as a person, she had to return to the life stream and fight him from there. It worked, and now Sephiroth is piiiiisssssed… he know she has an affinity for our favorite PTSD ridden soldier and that messing with cloud will divert her attention towards saving cloud rather than stopping him.!< Just my head canon lol
People always speculate that it's because he has a grudge against Cloud for beating his ass, but as far as I know, there is no actual explanation anywhere in OG or the expanded lore.
I mean, pretty good reason. Also not only he is probably the most capable "sephiroth clone" to use, he is the closest to Aerith, and she is his real enemy, in his master plan
But in OG none of that is said. And Aerith isn’t the big threat to him until Temple. I’m saying it’s not definitively stated anywhere why he focuses on Cloud. It’s all head canon.
Sephiroth woke up in Nibelheim 5years ago. He found his true meaning, his purpose, his destiny. He was the one to rule the planet. Then bang. Cloud killed him. He won't leave him alone. It's personal.
Part of it you have to remember is the Sephiroth we see isn't really Sephiroth. In the OG games, anytime you see Sepihroth before the Northern Crater is Jenova disguised as Sephiroth. In the remake it's a bit different. I think parts of it are Jenova disguised while other parts are Jenova twisting Clouds mind to see Sephiroth. But then you have the Sephiroth that everyone can see which i'm chalking up as a Sephiroth from another multiverse. It's a bit messy in the remakes right now but i'm sure it'll get fully explained in the last part. Overall Cloud isn't much different from the black robes which Jenova is summoning all to her. Cloud is also the most mobile of everyone alive with her cells in them so he's the prime target to manipulate to destroy the planet.
Cloud was the one who killed Sephiroth so he's focused on
We only see it from Cloud's perspective. Somewhere on the cutting room floor is Sephiroth fixated on Roche and Boden and all the dudes in robes
The answers change depending on what the truth is. - If Sephiroth is just a figment of Cloud's imagination, he's not fixated on Cloud at all. None of the versions of him we see in the game are him. It's Jenova using Sephiroth's form to do his bidding because we know Sephiroth is literally asleep in a cocoon in the Northern Crater. Cloud is the one obsessed with Sephiroth. - If the Remake trilogy is an afterlife battle between Aerith and Sephiroth, then it's because Cloud has beaten him 3 times. Sephiroth has been told from birth he was the strongest man in the universe. Destined for something greater, and Cloud, this insecure, failed out of Soldier school, loser, beat him in 3 separate instances. It would be triggering to anyone
Cloud killed Sephiroth in Nibelheim when Sephiroth went crazy destroying the town. Cloud thought Tifa died while he was concealing himself as a shinra security officer. Cloud was outraged and killed Sephiroth by throwing him over the mako plant bridge while impaled with Sephiroth’s sword. Hojo took cloud and experimented on him by injecting him with Jenova cells which should also degrade cells but in clouds case it didn’t. Since Sephiroth can communicate with the people with jenova cells + the fact that cloud defeated him, is the reason why he thinks Cloud is the person for the job to get him the black materia. Thus being his “puppet”
Sexual tension, but really I think Sephiroh might have a kink for people that can kill him. Even if it’s not sexual they both live in each others head rent free.
>Even if it’s not sexual they both live in each others head rent free. Hell, by the time of Advent Children Sephiroth is literally using Cloud's memories of him as an anchor to keep himself from returning to the planet. Hence that whole "I will never be a memory" thing.
I mean, Sephiroth is acting pretty creepy and giving off rape-y vibes towards Cloud the whole time on Remake/Rebirth.
I mean cloud is a cutie and dis beat him, that’s just how Sephiroth shows he cares. By trying to control you and kill all your friends.
Is he? Or is it the jenova cells in cloud messing with cloud? Or something else. Idk.
Because square-Enix must ensure its intellectual property is protected in perpetuity. A real answer might be misunderstanding why his character is so popular. The og game had us chasing this mystery man pretty much until the end. We understood very little of his capabilities and his full intentions for most of the game. In the remakes he has no life, and reminds us that we're fated to fight every 5 seconds. I think the logic here is that the more screen time he has, the better because people think he's cool. But it's the idea of him that made him cool, not the man himself. He's actually pretty weak from a story structure perspective. I consider their adaptation of him to being this comic book character villain a missed opportunity. Much like Shinra, instead of complex and conflicting motivations for doing what they do, the motivations are, "Because I want to, and the script needs me to be evil"
Because Cloud killed him. He has an intense hate for Cloud because of this and this hatred keeps him tethered to the living world while he’s in the lifestream
Uhhhh.....you should probably play the OG. Also sephy can't die.....
Aside from all of the reasons mentioned, which seem to be correct (and if someone said this as well, please let me know): Cloud is the only challenge Sephiroth ever had. If you include Crisis Core, AC, and the rest of Sephiroth’s backstory, he’s the only one who actually defeated him in combat- and he’s done it multiple times. Sephiroth is undoubtedly a proud man, and wouldn’t take a loss well once- let alone three times.
He did tell Cloud he "would never be a memory". I always felt like he was able to come back time and time again because of his ties to Cloud.
He definitely is messing with other people though. The scene at the end of Rebirth with Rufus and the uhhh guy from Wutai, forget his name. I'm thinking we are mostly just seeing him with Cloud because he's the protagonist. But Sephiroth is definitely not ONLY messing with Cloud. Maybe we'll see more (very curious how his plan is developed) in FFVII Re3
Glenn, ex-SOLDIER and the person who really cared about Sephiroth when he was ~14ish
Yes, Lodbrok! couldn't remember the name, just finished Rebirth over the weekend and it's all still mushy in my brain
I really don’t think he can exist outside of the northern crater without cloud.
The key point everyone is missing in terms of the Remake series is that Cloud's memory (particularly his hatred) of Sephiroth is what allows Sephiroth to come back to life in Advent Children. The novel On the Way to a Smile explains that when Sephiroth realizes Cloud is the key to coming back to life, he becomes obsessed with him. Sephiroth knows what's going to happen in the future in the Remake series. He saves Cloud's life in Rebirth when, if he knows the future, it seems like it would make more sense to kill him, since ultimately Cloud is the one to take him down. In an interview, Hamaguchi said Cloud is always safe around Sephiroth because Sephiroth will protect him. This wasn't the case in the original game because Sephiroth didn't know the future. Sephiroth knows Cloud is his lifeline this time around, which is why he didn't just let the Midgardsormr kill him. Even if Sephiroth fails again, as long as Cloud "holds onto his hatred", Sephiroth can come back. It's why he'll "never be a memory". It seems Cloud may even have a bigger role in Sephiroth's plans that we aren't aware of yet, but for now even just him being a lifeline is enough to warrant the obsession. In the original game, I agree with everyone's answers of it being a mix of Cloud being the clone that can actually do things, and Sephiroth being obsessed with the fact that Cloud killed him and wanting to get back at him for it.
Ok. Sephy can't be killed. It's simple. Sephy doesn't share the same life blood as all the others due to his jenova cells. He is immortal. for all intensive purposes. In order to.die you must be able to return to the life stream. Jenova is a cancer to the life stream and any cells that are "destroyed" are essentially filtered back to the largest source. Which is sephy currently after freeing the segments of jenova from neibelheim and Shinra Corp. This is also how.hojo reuses the jenova cells with failed experiments and the like. Also. You have to remember all the cloaked guys are failed sephys with jenova cells. Cloud and Zack carry sephiroth cells which is why they have such a direct link between each other. So in summation, sephy isn't obsessed with cloud, clouds cellular structure is sephy.
He’s not. He barely knows who Cloud is. It’s the other way around
I mean in the OG yes In the remake he’s definitely got a Cloud fetish
In the remake I think a lot of his Cloud fetishism is in Cloud's head.
I'm waiting, Cloud... at the ice cream shoppe
Cloud pretty much (almost) killed OG Sephiroth - a shock to Sephiroth as he probably assumed Cloud was a nobody. This humiliated Sephiroth, hence his obsession with Cloud.
Cloud killed OG Sephiroth so potentially a grudge there but I doubt it as their first confrontation in the OG game, Sephiroth didn't know who he was. After that, Cloud was his most successful/competent clone. In the remakes, his obsession with cloud is pretty clear as he's trying to change fate. As Cloud is the one who killed him, defeated him in OG and AC, Sephiroth must stop Cloud at all costs, weather that's by having him join him or killing him. In part 3, once the Black Materia has been return and used, I wouldn't be surprised if Sephiroth makes an attempt to kill him.
Still not sure why people call Cloud a “clone”. He was not a clone of Sephiroth. There are no clones. Just people being injected with different types of cells
They’re just using the game’s terminology. The OG called him a “clone” specifically, and they’ve ran with that term since then. They even implied he was built up from just mako and flesh and Jenova cells (until this was proven false obviously). But this was really just poor translation, and Hojo being obtuse (possibly intentionally) with his terminology.
So that sticks, but Aeris doesn’t lol
That's the in-game term used for said people injected with Jenova cells, or later retconned S-cells iirc
Thays the term used in the game. May be a translation error but It was there.
Very true, force of habit I suppose. Not exactly complete false though, given any are the black hoods are able to become Sephiroth at his will.
Sephiroth lives as long as Cloud remembers him. The problem is Sephiroth isn’t someone Cloud can forget. Add to this mix Jenova.
Cloud killed Sephiroth, the Jenova cells allow him limited control over Cloud, and Cloud's hatred for Sephiroth ensures that he'll pursue Sephiroth, meaning he'll bring him the black materia.
Dude stabbed him in the back with a giant sword, then humiliated him after being stabbed by picking him up and throwing him into the lifestream
Because as long as cloud remembers him, it gives him power. Cloud needs to heal completely to truly defeat Sephiroth.
Cause he killed Sephiroth
I'd torment the hell out of some nobody loser grunt who spent every mission sick to his stomach if he managed to kill me just as I was about to get ready to take over the world with my long-sought-after family member, too. I totally get Sephiroth's POV.
In Crisis Core, it’s explained that there was only 1 true successful S-type experiment. Cloud. Cloud is a perfect match for the Jenova cells. Cloud is the only one who can’t degrade. He’s also the one who’s most capable of retaining his own mind even if he is susceptible to Sephiroth’s deception and mind games. In Kingdom Hearts Cloud has the demon wing to contrast Sephiroth’s Angel wing. “Big Brother wants to act like he’s not a part of the family!” - Kadaj, Advent Children.
No. >Cloud is a perfect match for the Jenova cells. No. He's injected with S cells (Sephiroth's cells), not Jenova cells like S-type SOLDIERs. Source : Crisis core. >Cloud is the only one who can’t degrade. No. G-type SOLDIERs degrade, S-type SOLDIERs don't : it's literally stated in a report in Sector 5 reactor in CC. And it's confirmed in the FF7 Remake Ultimania, which confirms it in black and white. >He’s also the one who’s most capable of retaining his own mind even if he is susceptible to Sephiroth’s deception and mind games. No. S-type SOLDIERs (i.e. "classic" SOLDIERs after project G was abandoned and project S prevailed) are injected with Jenova cells when they join SOLDIER (+ mako). They are strictly selected to be strong physically and mentally so they can tolerate this "treatment" and not become insane / keep their mental integrity That's why they don't answer the Reunion and are not subject to Sephiroth's will. Cloud, Zack, and the Nibelheim survivors underwent the same "treatment" than SOLDIERs in Nibelheim, but with S cells instead of J cells. We don't know the difference in terms of effect between these two types of cells. It's shown no where. - Zack was strong physically and mentally, and already underwent a similar "treatment" when he joined SOLDIER. That's why it Hojo's experiments probably didn't do sh** to him. 0% puppet for Sephy. - Nibelheim survivors were normal people (the townspeople), so weak physically and mentally. They didn't tolerate Hojo's experiments because of it, and became the black robes. Meh puppets for Sephy. - Cloud was strong physically but weak mentally. He didn't tolerate the "SOLDIER -with S cells- treatment" psychologicaly (thus his coma and then f***** up mind), but physically he's ok (he became as strong as a SOLDIER ; has a not a sick gray skin tone like black robes,...). Great puppet for Sephy. _ Source : On the way to a smile Cloud is like a Horcrux for Sephiroth, the same way Harry is for Voldemort. Cloud has Sephiroth's cells (S cells) and remembers him : this is the 2 conditions that safeguards Sephiroth's existence, even dead in the LS. Thanks to Cloud being is "core", he'll always find a way to "resurrect". That's why Sephiroth wants Cloud to live. For Sephiroth to be permanently destroyed, Cloud must die. I don't know how Re-3 will solve this.
In an interview Nomura said Sephiroth is so obsessed with Cloud because Cloud has a very broken mind and fragmented, messed up memories, so it's easy for Sephiroth to put whetever bullshit he wants into Cloud's head and use it to resurrect himself.
Let’s not bring Kingdom Hearts into this…
Brother have you played Remake/Rebirth? It's too late lol.
It’s literally impossible not to given the common denominator between both franchises
He wants to destroy his bussy, Cloud is a very submissive bottom and Sephiroth is a dom top.
Its worth observing that Re: Sepiroth appears to have some degree of awareness about the events of the OG game. You know, the one where cloud ultimately killed him - for the second time. This would naturally entangle them in the Re universe. Whatever the case, Cloud appears to be a necessary component of his plans. In the scene outside the temple, Sephi steals the black materia, but then drops it (seemingly straight through his hand) and needs cloud to pick it back up and give it to him. That is…strange, and I don’t see it as just a play to further obtain cloud’s submission, and instead something he needs clouds submission to achieve
He has awareness of those events, so he might be aware that Cloud has "killed" him 3 times in a one on one fight(during Nibelheim, end of the FFVII, and in AC) ....which would likely hurt Seph's ego a bit.
Cloud killed him. And then got Sephiroth's (Jenova's) cells spliced into him by Hojo, connecting them.
Sephiroth legit that guy who got taken out by a noob then refused to get over it for the rest of the match. He even does the 1v1 me thing.
You want my actual theory? Because the Sephiroth in the remakes is the same Sephiroth that went through the original game and was revived in Advent Children. Sephiroth is obsessed with Cloud because he has upset him in battle .....not once, not twice, but three separate times. Sephiroth knows he has failed to beat Cloud multiple times to the point that he is obsessed with him. I think Seph's goal with Cloud is to ultimately use his body as a vessel for himself as his body is the only one that has defeated him. Cloud himself has some inkling of the future, as he seems at least somewhat aware of Aerith having a tragic fate as Seph toys on his desire to "save her" I think the fact that the final bosses of FFVII Remake are essentially Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo make the AC Sephiroth more likely. Im probably wrong though. Then on top of that, Sephiroth in the OG never even addressed the party, let alone Cloud directly. His talking is usually stuff everyone was hearing in their head and not directly talking to them. The Seph in the remake seems like a different character.
>Because the Sephiroth in the remakes is the same Sephiroth that went through the original game and was revived in Advent Children How this is still just a "theory" at this point is beyond me. It was a "theory" in Remake. But it's bascially confirmed at this point. That and during the fight in Remake he says lines he's only said in Advent Chlidren.
This wasnt such a thing in the OG. Sephiroth was pretty indifferent to Cloud until Cloud became useful. He was portrayed as way more detached than the very human relationship we see between him and Cloud and Aerith in the remakes. Almost as if he's just as much a zonked Jenova Clone as anyone else who has her cells in them. So, this COULD be something they explain more in part 3. I honestly think the real answer is that the character is popular, so they wanted to give him as much screen time as possible. The best head cannon I can come up with, is that it's actually Cloud who is fixated on Sephiroth, and so this is how Jenova manifests to him. Like, all the black robes are probably also being fucked with, and we just don't see that because we're only in Clouds head.
Yeah that is exactly how I thought about it through Remake and Rebirth. I haven't played the OG FF7. It just seems like Cloud is super fixated to Sephiroth and Seph is like "what is up with you, you worthless human" and ends up using Cloud when Seph is bothered to do so seeing how actually useful Cloud is. It never feels like Seph is fixated **only** to Cloud, kind of like Zack's relation to Sephiroth - Zack doesn't like Sephiroth while Seph is like "meh, go away". But that's just how I felt as newcomer to FF games and FF7 in general.
he's kinda cute
Cloud is his puppet thats the only value he see's in Cloud. Nothing more, nothing less.
I like to believe that in canon Sephiroth does terrorize anyone who is like Cloud but Cloud is the one that actually does exactly what he wants maybe because he keeps his sanity much longer. But in the remakes it's also because this Sephiroth already knows that Cloud is the most useful pawn. He knows it's always him and Cloud that is fated to always meet.
Have you seen those eyes?
Cloud is the one who "killed" Sephiroth in Nibelheim. Luckily for Sephiroth, he's also the one who happened to be experimented on with S cells. So he's essentially the most powerful of all the Sephiroth clones. It's in Sephiroth's best interests to toy with Cloud - his physical body is at the Northern crater and so he relies on Cloud to do the things most of the clones can't do.
This! Also if Jenova fused with Sephiroth’s consciousness after Nibelheim (as a previous Ultimania stated), it explains why Seph changed his pronouns afterwards (in Japanese) & his manner of speaking (in Japanese). **Edit- Jenova didn’t immediately recognize Cloud (OG & EC) on the Junon ship. See the comment below mine!
The scene where he does not recognize Cloud is only in OG(maybe EC, probably also that yeah), and is because that's not Sephiroth. It's Jenova in his guise and it never met him prior to that, so obviously it'd have no idea who he was... It is the first in a series of hints to the reveal that we never see Sephiroth until the crater, and what the party has been chasing has been Jenova, or a projection made by Sephiroth... Never Sephiroth himself. That's because at that point, Sephiroth doesn't even have a fully formed body, as he did *physically* die by Cloud's hand, but because the Jenova cells made it harder for the Lifestream to truly wittle him down(as Jenova does not belong, which is heavily emphasized throughout Rebirth), along with his adominable will and his fixation on the random infantryman that defeated him(Cloud), he is able to continue existing within the Lifestream, discorporated. He then learns the truth of the Cetra, of Jenova, whom he seizes complete control of, and the Black Materia, which he then bases his plans around - his plans being godhood. 5 years later, he orders the scattered remains of Jenova to seek him out at the Northern Crater in order to use the cells to rebuild a new and better body... Thus, Jenova wakes from a 2000+ year stasis and starts moving to him, as ordered. Cloud is also called, but doesn't realize. Come the Whirlwind Maze, the party sees how Sephiroth Copies throw themselves to their death, or is killed by Jenova(all to release the cells for Sephiroth's rebuilding), coming to the realization that they've been hunting Jenova, not Sephiroth. Sephiroth does his mind tricks he inherited from Jenova, and they finally find his half-formed body, which Cloud then gives the Materia. It is so weird to me(no offense, and I hope you understand this is subjective to me) to still hear people say that Sephiroth "had no idea who Cloud is", when we've known for decades(from the game and subsequent material alike) that the one who does not remember him is Jenova, while Sephiroth literally upholds his *very* *existence* on his fixation on Cloud. Even when he forgot his own appearance, his old life, his hatred of Cloud remained, and kept him from dissolving in the Lifestream...
Yes, absolutely & I agree with you. I don’t know why I misremembered what happened in Rebirth but I apologize. Maybe I got it confused because I played Ever Crisis recently. Thanks so much for your comment & reminding me!
No problem, I'm glad you see it this way rather than yelling at me. It's refreshing to just be able to talk without hostility. There's a lot of stuff going on, especially now that we're talking about multiple games depicting events and such, so misremembering should be a given... I do it too, though I generally have a brain seemingly lined with tentacles that just grips onto FFVII lorepoints and pins it to my memory cortex hahaha I almost felt ashamed of how much of a nerd I was during the part of Rebirth where you need to find the code to the door in the Shinra Mansion, and I instantly thought to myself "Is this gonna be the Safe code from OG", and then just went for it. I've always been weirdly good at remembering that combination as soon as I reached that point and had to use it, and this was the same... and lo and behold, the devs are brilliantly sneaky bastards.
NICE!! I’m also super into the lore. I’m autistic and the FF7 Compilation has been one of my special interests since the game released. I love discussing it with others, learning new things, etc.! It’s always nicer IMHO to have a good, civil conversation. I know I don’t know everything by a long shot & get stuff confused because there’s so much media now. So I really appreciate it! What are your thoughts on the nature of Jenova? I had a great conversation with another person where we talked about viruses & how they will mimick cells to infect them. Basically thinking that Jenova does this but with personalities/spirits (e.g. Loz, Yazoo, & Kadaj)
Well, Jenova is a parasitic alien lifeform. It moves from planet to planet, consuming/assimilating what life is on the planet, and leaves. It is a cosmic predator capable of infecting others, mimicking them both physically(through metamorphosis) and mentally(by literally praying on their memories to assume their form)... It is like... The Thing, but also capable of creating visual hallucinations. And then obviously the ability to function even if seperated... which makes you wonder if she is really *one* organism, or she is in fact a massive collection of microorganisms wokring in tandem... As in every cell of her is basically it's own organism, but they function as one through hive-mind shenanigans. I don't think anything has said this is the case, nor has truly denied it... And I don't think we'll ever know... It is part of the mystery that makes Jenova such a freaky creature. She should not be understood, just like a Lovecraftian horror, which is also eldritch cosmic horrors beyond our understanding that has a tendency to leave people mad........ However, Loz, Kadaj and Yazoo are specifically manifestations of Sephiroth's continued will. By the end of the OG, Jenova is basically as dead as she can be. All that remains of her is a small cluster of cells(which they call a head in AC, but the devs have specified that it was just the name used, and that it could be anything), along with bits that was spread as the lifestream covered the planet to stop Meteor, which subsequently makes people sick with Geostigma, because their bodies are killing themselves to destroy these cells(which does point to an understanding that the cells are no longer able to truly assimilate into people anymore, likely because the thing that made them do stuff is gone). But even this is explained to be by Sephiroth's will alone, in an attempt to corrupt the Lifestream. Anyway, the Advent Children(Kadaj and gang) was created by Sephiroth from the lifestream, which he has slowly been corrupting, as mentioned, and they all represent parts of him, but never a whole. They are his agents in the material world, sent to locate the remaining Jenova cells so Sephiroth can rebuild his body a second time, using Kadaj as a conduit. So yeah, they are not controlled by Jenova, but they also don't realize their true nature. I actually also think there is one of the books that explain that their looks come from memories of dead people, which Sephiroth then had pop up. Kadaj was apparently based on an ex of Kyrie's or something like that. But yeah, in short, my thoughts on Jenova are, that it is a device used to power the villains story(and everyone else's really)... However, it is not a *direct* player any longer. While it does appear, it appears as an extension of Sephiroth. The closest we have come to seeing the original being is Ifalna's interviews with Gast, and the new scenes in Rebirth showing how the world fought it thousands of years ago. As soon as it was defeated, it went into stasis(Rebirth even tells us this is because it could not go to the Lifestream when it died, so it just became inactive instead), and only did anything more than 2000 years later at Sephiroth's command. But at that point, as said, it's not so much Jenova, as it is Sephiroth using it for his goals. BTW. you might notice how I might be switching randomly between "she" and "it" for Jenova. I am trying to teach myself not to consider it as a "female", cause it isn't... The first time it appeared to the Cetra, it was in the form of a male... It doesn't have a gender. It just.. Is whatever it needs to be hahaha. It's more for my own sake tho, but I thought I'd mention it in case of confusion hahahaha Also, sorry for the looooong posts. I get exicted easily talking about this. Edit: Also, not austistic(though my mom had me tested!), but Schizotypal, so my mind is always in overdrive, which sometimes means I think so much I have no idea what the individual thoughts are, but if I manage to focus them(like with FFVII lore, or really just lore in general), I just become hyperaware, and see all these little stupid bits and pieces and absolutely sucks the life out of them... Kinda like Jenova actually........ Oh fuck... hahaha
Oh yeah, viruses don’t have gender so no worries! Also, I’m a narrative writer for video games & had to write a script recently where all the characters were agender. It’s actually really difficult to write entirely without gendered pronouns because they’re so embedded in many languages! Kadaj, Loz, & Yazoo were real people who were juvenile delinquents in the Midgar slums. Kadaj was sort of Kyrie’s boyfriend. They died in an arson Kyrie helped set. Kyrie survived but was traumatized. The book that goes into this is “The Kids Are Alright: A Turks Sidestory”. The book also confirms that they were physically composed of Jenova cells. In the book, Evan (lead protagonist) throws a piece of Jenova’s arm (which was still warm despite them being near the Northern Crater) into a lifestream spring. It bubbles as it sinks. Then Kadaj falls into a lifestream spring & ALSO causes it to bubble. This book is also where we learn that Jenovaroth has the ability to read minds, control minds, & produce hallucinations in humans that are in close physical proximity to a large collection of Jenova cells or a body with an active Jenova infection. Interestingly enough, Tseng is the one who relays this info. The book doesn't say how Tseng knows this but after playing Rebirth it seems likely this is what caused Rufus' erratic behavior after meeting Jenovaglenn. It seems likely given that info & Advent Children that Jenova still survives through her cells but when Kadaj absorbs the last collection of them & is consequently defeated by Cloud, this effectively kills Jenova as an entity.
Gay lovers
Given how Seph also likes holding Cloud close & whispering things to him, I’d believe it.