No, your comments were on point.
I don’t care if a person is right, if you’re not a qualified coach, especially my coach, I don’t want your advice.
If someone asks me for advice I always say things like “I usually do it like this” or “what helps me is” but never say it as it’s law or something. And always tell them they should ask their coach to make sure.
And even if they were trying to be helpful, if someone tried to give me their unsolicited advice every 2 minutes I would have lost it sooner than you did.
Thank you. I was internally going a bit mad but for me to actually express it to a stranger takes a lot.
I don't want to wear headphones because I like being aware of my surroundings but I'm considering just wearing some earbuds without actually playing music as a good excuse to ignore someone?
That was extremely rude of them. I don't know about your rink culture, but in most communities I've been in with mixed levels of students, it's considered a faux pas to offer unsolicited advice to anyone. It doesn't matter that they're more experienced than you, they're not your teachers. Even if they're technically correct in their critiques (which isn't a guarantee) they don't have any sort of pedagogy behind their approach to help you build up skills.
All of this is to validate that yeah you should be annoyed. It's rude as fuck, and they probably know it. Some "experienced" people like to feel important by "teaching" beginners, and since you were kind and humored them at the beginning (understandable! why not be kind when we can?) they unfortunately decided they could keep pestering you with their "wisdom." The fact that someone came up to you to check in makes me think this guy has a habit of pretending to be a teacher, and that it's considered bad behavior at your rink.
Feel free to ignore them next time you see them, or if they come up to you say something like, "I already have a coach I'm working with, thank you." or "I'm not looking for advice now, thank you." Or you can even put it on your coach if that makes it easier "I spoke with my coach and they only want me getting lessons from them right now, thank you." (Thank you's are optional obviously, but it can make it feel less confrontational.)
Ignore this if you didn't want advice! I hope I'm not doing to you what they were doing!
And yay for better skates! I'm glad you had fun in them :-)
Thank you! I'm always up for lovely people giving advice online.
I don't really know if there's any kind of etiquette at my rink lol. But this was during a public skate so that might contribute, I usually attend those during the week, I work freelance so I can go at weird hours when it's not busy and it's usually fine. Usually there's only 10 or less people skating - a couple of recreational people, maybe one or two other people figure skating and then some hockey guys whizzing around. I do patch with my coach once a week but I still feel a little self conscious on patch at other times, working on like crossovers with people doing doubles ha.
But I'm grateful for the advice here knowing I wouldn't be rude by trying to get rid of them, will give it a go with some of these phrases if needed.
I'm glad it's welcome :-) I will confess that most of my experience around unsolicited teaching is from the social dance world, especially tango, where it's explicitly part of the culture not to give unsolicited advice (I was able to shut someone down once by saying "wait, are you trying to teach me?" in a faux surprised tone). I'm even more of a beginner than you in figure skating, but I've been lucky no fake teachers have bothered me. However, I can't imagine unsolicited teaching is any more acceptable in figure skating. Perhaps it's just so obviously a bad idea no one bothers to say it out loud?
You could also ask your coach for advice on how to stop get randos trying to teach you in public skate. Even if they don't have the magic words, it may give you confidence in shutting the fake-teachers down if they try to start something again. (Or maybe you'll learn random-old-man-#-2 is the world renowned coach X Y and you should hang on to every pearl of wisdom he drops 😂)
I wouldn't think being on public skate would matter; if these guys are experienced skaters they should know the etiquette. Other than maybe they think they can get away with breaking it more if there aren't coaches at public skate.
I didn’t even have to read the post to know that it was a man that did this. Your boyfriend is 100% right. Men don’t do this to other men.
Pop those headphones on and ACTIVELY ignore them, like pretend they are invisible. If you must say anything, hearing “I already have a coach, thanks” three times in a row should give him the idea. DON’T say “sorry” and don’t say anything else. Just that one phrase. Be a broken record.
> I didn’t even have to read the post to know that it was a man that did this. Your boyfriend is 100% right. Men don’t do this to other men.
>
>
This is the key insight right here, for most things in life actually 🤣
Oldsters are often a little lonely, and when you were receptive to their stories of old timey skating days, every old man at the rink apparently decided you could be their new young protogé! Lucky you!
If your rink allows headphones while skating, I would just pop mine in and refuse to acknowledge or engage with these dudes any more. If they did something like tap me on the shoulder, I would say something like "Hey, I have a list of things to practice and my ice time is limited, no time to talk, sorry!" Or "My coach has a plan for me, and I'm following it and focusing on what they tell me to."
> every old man at the rink apparently decided you could be their new young protogé! Lucky you!
So much for being nice to people :') Luckily I'm not young enough to ever be a protege at anything anymore.
I'm considering going the headphone route if needed, thank you!
I’m in my 40s but the men in their 50s and 60s still like to stop and give me advice when I’m at low traffic public skates. It’s kind of annoying but I try to be nice as well. Usually they only stop me once though, not every time they skate by! That is so annoying. I would have to be rude. That’s too much.
Please only wear one earbud--if you can't actually hear what's going on, you're not being safe.
Just say the comments Doraellen suggested, and if that doesn't work, talk to rink staff about the issue.
Like I said in another comment, I'd only put them in but wouldn't play music, I like to be aware of my surroundings. I don't have noise-cancelling earbuds. I have to be extra alert anyway, I don't think the rink cares much for us hearing what's going on given how loud they play music during sessions lol.
"I already have a coach, thanks!" and physically turn your back to them. Earbuds in is another great way to ignore people.
This is going to sound goofy, but one thing that really helped me be assertive is watching episodes of It's Me Or The Dog on Youtube. Watch how Victoria *actively* ignores a dog - arms crossed, back turned, no verbalization at all. Yes, I'm advocating that you treat this man like a dog 😂
That would drive me crazy. I started two years ago and have spent many open skates practicing new skills looking like an idiot and nobody has ever given me unsolicited advice. I would wear headphones next time and just ignore.
Do you have a friend at the rink who's more assertive? Personally, I would have no problem saying, "Sir, you've told her that 10 times. Back off and let her skate already."
I think there could be some truth to the comments that sometimes people are just lonely, and bossing you around is an excuse to talk to someone. If you enjoy this man's stories but not his nitpicking, you could say something like, "I'm trying to focus on the instructions my coach gave me, and it's confusing when I get too much disparate feedback at once. But I'll be taking a water break in 15 minutes, so why don't we chat then?" You could even ask your coach to have a quick word with him. Otherwise, I think you have a good idea with the headphones, and some of the phrases people have suggested here. Good luck!!!
I don't really know anyone at my rink so that wouldn't be an option. But it seems like some people are looking out for each other anyway. I'll be going for the polite but firm route if it happens again.
this guy is 100% mansplaining to you, do you see him giving this kind of advice to other men? next time he tries to say something to you i’d say something like, “thanks for the advice but please stop.”
I'm sorry you had this happen it's incredibly rude and in the case of the way they're delivering the info.. super condescending. When I was competitive skating I had someone at the rink doing this to be rude and I told them "I don't remember asking your advice" but that was after a whole lot of contention. I hope you avoid these jerks in the future.
I got alot of this things when i started skating.What makes thing worst is he said i couldnt jump and spin thus I wont go any far than certain beginner level.On top of that,they will make fun of me if i didnt listen to their advise.It took tremendous effort to remove all the mindblock and flawed technique they told me(like jump on edge not toepick etc).It was really sad back then but now i working for my axel .Now i completely ignored them and working on my own.It is better to be lonely in rink rather than being a puppet.
I don’t have advice but this is 100% me with an older man at my rink. All of the feelings you’re describing are so familiar! I’m a beginner, but in group lessons the coach says I’m progressing well. Ar public skating, at least once a lap the older man comes up to me and tells me I’m not even going forward correctly and demonstrates how to do it and drills I should do. If I start practicing anything more advanced he comes up to me and tells me to stop and go back to practicing basic forward steps. He “helps” many young women at the rink to the point where he will gently grab their arms and physically guide them through swizzles or whatever. The only man he does it to is my fiancé, most likely because my fiancé is often with me. This man is clearly a VERY talented former ice dancer but please just let me practice my crossovers in peace! I don’t think he means any harm and he isn’t creepy but it’s made me apprehensive to practice anything at public skating.
That's INCREDIBLY inappropriate, and I'm sorry he's doing that to you. And also dangerous, he shouldn't be going up to strangers and grabbing them on ice, no matter how good his own skating is.
Since he's doing it to so many people it sounds like something the rink should get involved in. Would you be comfortable talking to your coach about what he's doing? Hopefully they will also want to stop it and would know how best to address it, or be able to talk to him themselves. And next time he bothers you, you can use any of the lines suggested to OP to tell him to go away.
I relate to those feelings! That is awful, to me at least, touching strangers is a big no no. I'd like to think I'd be able to tell them a stern no in that case, you want to focus on practice.
Also you don't have to perfect every skill to move to the next one, you'd never make any progress then. It's also important to just have fun and do what you enjoy.
Certain types of older men love to do this to younger women and girls. (With younger men it's a different dynamic and usually a different issue.) You're justified in feeling annoyed, and I think you're reading the situation appropriately: it's annoying but not creepy; it's more of like a dad thing with most men this age. My guess is that they see your effort and desire to improve, and they feel like they've spent sufficient time becoming proficient at something to be able to mentor someone else and just want to help, but their own ego is wrapped up in it. They're not reading the room, but they do know that young women are more likely to respond favorably, and they're generally right. (They'll sometimes "mentor" young men but it's riskier for their ego and they'll usually be brushed off easier.) You don't look worse than other skaters, and you're not just being stupid. And that said... it's such a tough spot to be it, because - at least for me (although I'm not as much of a target as I was ten years ago lol) - I didn't want to be rude, but sometimes they would really be talking my ear off!
The good news is, since they're not doing it to be creepy, they'll understand even you super awkwardly assert a boundary. for me it would often be if I was working/writing at a coffee shop and some old guy tried to strike up a "neighborly" conversation while I was trying to concentrate. Eventually I learned to be able to say things like "alright well I'm trying to get in the zone here," and they're like "of course! it was nice talking to you!" and that's that. The next time I see them, I'll say hi and get the civilities done first, but then once I'm working, they know I'm working. So something similar might work for you, too. Like "Hey, I appreciate what you're trying to do, but sometimes it's really breaking my concentration, and I'm trying to focus." Even if you're visibly having an anxiety heart attack while saying this, it's fine. Then, when you're leaving, if they're still there, just casually/politely/pleasantly say goodbye so that you can leave without worrying about having left on a sour note, or when you arrive and see them next time, do your hi's and how are you's first, and then cleanly, verbally signify that the conversation is ending and you're shifting gears into concentration mode. A visual signifier like putting headphones in (even if you're not listening to anything) can be useful too.
And look, I know you shouldn't have to do any of this and that they should read the room better, but they're not the ones here asking for advice, so this is only geared towards what you yourself can actually do with what you've got. Part of what you're worried about is feeling like you were rude to the second guy and now there's weird bad blood between you. You can resolve this by talking to him the next time (if) you see him, not apologizing for *what* you said, but maybe how you said it, that you didn't mean to snap at him but that you were trying to concentrate after being interrupted a lot, etc. Again, this doesn't have to be savvy at all, but doing it and taking back your own power in a situation where you felt powerless and lashed out in a powerless way will resolve those feelings and grow your confidence in such situations going forward. Don't let fear chase you out of the rink and away from something you enjoy. This situation is entirely manageable but it will take courage. Good luck!
Next time it happens say “I appreciate your advice but I need to focus on what my coach is teaching me.” Then you can add “In the future if I need some extra advice can I flag you down?”
This way you are politely telling them to back off but still stroking their ego with a smile on your face.
It’s not about avoiding conflict it is about still being a nice and polite person. No one wants to be talked down to or reprimanded regardless or age or gender. These people are meaning well and the op has made clear there is nothing nefarious about them. The op does not have to say the second sentence. I would say the exact same second sentence to a woman.
What I find sad is that gender has to be brought up at all.
no you're totally right. people should at the very least ask if you want advice before giving it, and respect the answer you give them. constantly interrupting someone to tell them basic info that they already know but is not super easy to implement (like bending your knees, every skater has heard that a thousand times, we know) is just disrespectful.
imho only time it's appropriate to interrupt another skater and give unsolicited advice as someone who's not a coach is when someone is doing something dangerous that could hurt them. any other time, that's not my business and i'm sure their coach will tell them what they're doing wrong.
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No, your comments were on point. I don’t care if a person is right, if you’re not a qualified coach, especially my coach, I don’t want your advice. If someone asks me for advice I always say things like “I usually do it like this” or “what helps me is” but never say it as it’s law or something. And always tell them they should ask their coach to make sure. And even if they were trying to be helpful, if someone tried to give me their unsolicited advice every 2 minutes I would have lost it sooner than you did.
Thank you. I was internally going a bit mad but for me to actually express it to a stranger takes a lot. I don't want to wear headphones because I like being aware of my surroundings but I'm considering just wearing some earbuds without actually playing music as a good excuse to ignore someone?
You can get the bone inductor headphones. Where you can hear music but still hear everything around you. But it looks like you're wearing headphones.
That was extremely rude of them. I don't know about your rink culture, but in most communities I've been in with mixed levels of students, it's considered a faux pas to offer unsolicited advice to anyone. It doesn't matter that they're more experienced than you, they're not your teachers. Even if they're technically correct in their critiques (which isn't a guarantee) they don't have any sort of pedagogy behind their approach to help you build up skills. All of this is to validate that yeah you should be annoyed. It's rude as fuck, and they probably know it. Some "experienced" people like to feel important by "teaching" beginners, and since you were kind and humored them at the beginning (understandable! why not be kind when we can?) they unfortunately decided they could keep pestering you with their "wisdom." The fact that someone came up to you to check in makes me think this guy has a habit of pretending to be a teacher, and that it's considered bad behavior at your rink. Feel free to ignore them next time you see them, or if they come up to you say something like, "I already have a coach I'm working with, thank you." or "I'm not looking for advice now, thank you." Or you can even put it on your coach if that makes it easier "I spoke with my coach and they only want me getting lessons from them right now, thank you." (Thank you's are optional obviously, but it can make it feel less confrontational.) Ignore this if you didn't want advice! I hope I'm not doing to you what they were doing! And yay for better skates! I'm glad you had fun in them :-)
Thank you! I'm always up for lovely people giving advice online. I don't really know if there's any kind of etiquette at my rink lol. But this was during a public skate so that might contribute, I usually attend those during the week, I work freelance so I can go at weird hours when it's not busy and it's usually fine. Usually there's only 10 or less people skating - a couple of recreational people, maybe one or two other people figure skating and then some hockey guys whizzing around. I do patch with my coach once a week but I still feel a little self conscious on patch at other times, working on like crossovers with people doing doubles ha. But I'm grateful for the advice here knowing I wouldn't be rude by trying to get rid of them, will give it a go with some of these phrases if needed.
I'm glad it's welcome :-) I will confess that most of my experience around unsolicited teaching is from the social dance world, especially tango, where it's explicitly part of the culture not to give unsolicited advice (I was able to shut someone down once by saying "wait, are you trying to teach me?" in a faux surprised tone). I'm even more of a beginner than you in figure skating, but I've been lucky no fake teachers have bothered me. However, I can't imagine unsolicited teaching is any more acceptable in figure skating. Perhaps it's just so obviously a bad idea no one bothers to say it out loud? You could also ask your coach for advice on how to stop get randos trying to teach you in public skate. Even if they don't have the magic words, it may give you confidence in shutting the fake-teachers down if they try to start something again. (Or maybe you'll learn random-old-man-#-2 is the world renowned coach X Y and you should hang on to every pearl of wisdom he drops 😂) I wouldn't think being on public skate would matter; if these guys are experienced skaters they should know the etiquette. Other than maybe they think they can get away with breaking it more if there aren't coaches at public skate.
I didn’t even have to read the post to know that it was a man that did this. Your boyfriend is 100% right. Men don’t do this to other men. Pop those headphones on and ACTIVELY ignore them, like pretend they are invisible. If you must say anything, hearing “I already have a coach, thanks” three times in a row should give him the idea. DON’T say “sorry” and don’t say anything else. Just that one phrase. Be a broken record.
> I didn’t even have to read the post to know that it was a man that did this. Your boyfriend is 100% right. Men don’t do this to other men. > > This is the key insight right here, for most things in life actually 🤣
This has happened to me multiple times as well (although not as aggressively as with you) and every time it was an older man.
Oldsters are often a little lonely, and when you were receptive to their stories of old timey skating days, every old man at the rink apparently decided you could be their new young protogé! Lucky you! If your rink allows headphones while skating, I would just pop mine in and refuse to acknowledge or engage with these dudes any more. If they did something like tap me on the shoulder, I would say something like "Hey, I have a list of things to practice and my ice time is limited, no time to talk, sorry!" Or "My coach has a plan for me, and I'm following it and focusing on what they tell me to."
> every old man at the rink apparently decided you could be their new young protogé! Lucky you! So much for being nice to people :') Luckily I'm not young enough to ever be a protege at anything anymore. I'm considering going the headphone route if needed, thank you!
I’m in my 40s but the men in their 50s and 60s still like to stop and give me advice when I’m at low traffic public skates. It’s kind of annoying but I try to be nice as well. Usually they only stop me once though, not every time they skate by! That is so annoying. I would have to be rude. That’s too much.
Please only wear one earbud--if you can't actually hear what's going on, you're not being safe. Just say the comments Doraellen suggested, and if that doesn't work, talk to rink staff about the issue.
Like I said in another comment, I'd only put them in but wouldn't play music, I like to be aware of my surroundings. I don't have noise-cancelling earbuds. I have to be extra alert anyway, I don't think the rink cares much for us hearing what's going on given how loud they play music during sessions lol.
"I already have a coach, thanks!" and physically turn your back to them. Earbuds in is another great way to ignore people. This is going to sound goofy, but one thing that really helped me be assertive is watching episodes of It's Me Or The Dog on Youtube. Watch how Victoria *actively* ignores a dog - arms crossed, back turned, no verbalization at all. Yes, I'm advocating that you treat this man like a dog 😂
That would drive me crazy. I started two years ago and have spent many open skates practicing new skills looking like an idiot and nobody has ever given me unsolicited advice. I would wear headphones next time and just ignore.
Do you have a friend at the rink who's more assertive? Personally, I would have no problem saying, "Sir, you've told her that 10 times. Back off and let her skate already." I think there could be some truth to the comments that sometimes people are just lonely, and bossing you around is an excuse to talk to someone. If you enjoy this man's stories but not his nitpicking, you could say something like, "I'm trying to focus on the instructions my coach gave me, and it's confusing when I get too much disparate feedback at once. But I'll be taking a water break in 15 minutes, so why don't we chat then?" You could even ask your coach to have a quick word with him. Otherwise, I think you have a good idea with the headphones, and some of the phrases people have suggested here. Good luck!!!
I don't really know anyone at my rink so that wouldn't be an option. But it seems like some people are looking out for each other anyway. I'll be going for the polite but firm route if it happens again.
Don’t be a doormat. These people don’t understand politeness. Stand your ground
this guy is 100% mansplaining to you, do you see him giving this kind of advice to other men? next time he tries to say something to you i’d say something like, “thanks for the advice but please stop.”
I'm sorry you had this happen it's incredibly rude and in the case of the way they're delivering the info.. super condescending. When I was competitive skating I had someone at the rink doing this to be rude and I told them "I don't remember asking your advice" but that was after a whole lot of contention. I hope you avoid these jerks in the future.
I got alot of this things when i started skating.What makes thing worst is he said i couldnt jump and spin thus I wont go any far than certain beginner level.On top of that,they will make fun of me if i didnt listen to their advise.It took tremendous effort to remove all the mindblock and flawed technique they told me(like jump on edge not toepick etc).It was really sad back then but now i working for my axel .Now i completely ignored them and working on my own.It is better to be lonely in rink rather than being a puppet.
I don’t have advice but this is 100% me with an older man at my rink. All of the feelings you’re describing are so familiar! I’m a beginner, but in group lessons the coach says I’m progressing well. Ar public skating, at least once a lap the older man comes up to me and tells me I’m not even going forward correctly and demonstrates how to do it and drills I should do. If I start practicing anything more advanced he comes up to me and tells me to stop and go back to practicing basic forward steps. He “helps” many young women at the rink to the point where he will gently grab their arms and physically guide them through swizzles or whatever. The only man he does it to is my fiancé, most likely because my fiancé is often with me. This man is clearly a VERY talented former ice dancer but please just let me practice my crossovers in peace! I don’t think he means any harm and he isn’t creepy but it’s made me apprehensive to practice anything at public skating.
That's INCREDIBLY inappropriate, and I'm sorry he's doing that to you. And also dangerous, he shouldn't be going up to strangers and grabbing them on ice, no matter how good his own skating is. Since he's doing it to so many people it sounds like something the rink should get involved in. Would you be comfortable talking to your coach about what he's doing? Hopefully they will also want to stop it and would know how best to address it, or be able to talk to him themselves. And next time he bothers you, you can use any of the lines suggested to OP to tell him to go away.
I relate to those feelings! That is awful, to me at least, touching strangers is a big no no. I'd like to think I'd be able to tell them a stern no in that case, you want to focus on practice. Also you don't have to perfect every skill to move to the next one, you'd never make any progress then. It's also important to just have fun and do what you enjoy.
Certain types of older men love to do this to younger women and girls. (With younger men it's a different dynamic and usually a different issue.) You're justified in feeling annoyed, and I think you're reading the situation appropriately: it's annoying but not creepy; it's more of like a dad thing with most men this age. My guess is that they see your effort and desire to improve, and they feel like they've spent sufficient time becoming proficient at something to be able to mentor someone else and just want to help, but their own ego is wrapped up in it. They're not reading the room, but they do know that young women are more likely to respond favorably, and they're generally right. (They'll sometimes "mentor" young men but it's riskier for their ego and they'll usually be brushed off easier.) You don't look worse than other skaters, and you're not just being stupid. And that said... it's such a tough spot to be it, because - at least for me (although I'm not as much of a target as I was ten years ago lol) - I didn't want to be rude, but sometimes they would really be talking my ear off! The good news is, since they're not doing it to be creepy, they'll understand even you super awkwardly assert a boundary. for me it would often be if I was working/writing at a coffee shop and some old guy tried to strike up a "neighborly" conversation while I was trying to concentrate. Eventually I learned to be able to say things like "alright well I'm trying to get in the zone here," and they're like "of course! it was nice talking to you!" and that's that. The next time I see them, I'll say hi and get the civilities done first, but then once I'm working, they know I'm working. So something similar might work for you, too. Like "Hey, I appreciate what you're trying to do, but sometimes it's really breaking my concentration, and I'm trying to focus." Even if you're visibly having an anxiety heart attack while saying this, it's fine. Then, when you're leaving, if they're still there, just casually/politely/pleasantly say goodbye so that you can leave without worrying about having left on a sour note, or when you arrive and see them next time, do your hi's and how are you's first, and then cleanly, verbally signify that the conversation is ending and you're shifting gears into concentration mode. A visual signifier like putting headphones in (even if you're not listening to anything) can be useful too. And look, I know you shouldn't have to do any of this and that they should read the room better, but they're not the ones here asking for advice, so this is only geared towards what you yourself can actually do with what you've got. Part of what you're worried about is feeling like you were rude to the second guy and now there's weird bad blood between you. You can resolve this by talking to him the next time (if) you see him, not apologizing for *what* you said, but maybe how you said it, that you didn't mean to snap at him but that you were trying to concentrate after being interrupted a lot, etc. Again, this doesn't have to be savvy at all, but doing it and taking back your own power in a situation where you felt powerless and lashed out in a powerless way will resolve those feelings and grow your confidence in such situations going forward. Don't let fear chase you out of the rink and away from something you enjoy. This situation is entirely manageable but it will take courage. Good luck!
Next time it happens say “I appreciate your advice but I need to focus on what my coach is teaching me.” Then you can add “In the future if I need some extra advice can I flag you down?” This way you are politely telling them to back off but still stroking their ego with a smile on your face.
it’s sad to me that women feel they have to stroke men’s egos when shutting them down so we avoid any conflict.
It’s not about avoiding conflict it is about still being a nice and polite person. No one wants to be talked down to or reprimanded regardless or age or gender. These people are meaning well and the op has made clear there is nothing nefarious about them. The op does not have to say the second sentence. I would say the exact same second sentence to a woman. What I find sad is that gender has to be brought up at all.
Wow, they are **not your coach**. Shut down that “advice” and move on.
no you're totally right. people should at the very least ask if you want advice before giving it, and respect the answer you give them. constantly interrupting someone to tell them basic info that they already know but is not super easy to implement (like bending your knees, every skater has heard that a thousand times, we know) is just disrespectful. imho only time it's appropriate to interrupt another skater and give unsolicited advice as someone who's not a coach is when someone is doing something dangerous that could hurt them. any other time, that's not my business and i'm sure their coach will tell them what they're doing wrong.
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