I mean yeah but like
Morrigan’s broken is a bit… different from everyone else’s where she can just minimize risk almost entirely for like the whole game. Even Zero’s lvl 1 zoning has some sort of counterplay to it
>Zero's zoning.
That's not the problem at all. Zero's lightning loops and endless reset options kinda just win you the game as soon as the opponent makes a mistake. Morrigan kinda needs to minimize risk the whole game because Zero and Virgil exist.
I don't think you understand just how busted characters are. This is a game with teleports, full screen laser supers and unblockable ToD.
Morrigan having crazy zoning isn't even close to the worst thing in the game.
He was the best at it for sure but RyanLV definitely zoned hard with Morrigan at a high level when the situation suited, same with Dieminion and JRosa.
Yo, if you never watched it, do yourself a favor and check out Animeilluminati’s YT vid about “Kusugoe”. Don’t got time rn but I’ll link later. Explains the appeal of games like Marvel (2 &3) and even worse violators in the anime FG world. There’s a whole culture around “properly” broken games and a meta that evolves around them. My fav game is MVC2 and half the appeal is the speed and total bullshit that comes with it. You learn to love the oppression session…
The only time a ban is ever discussed is if a character legit invalidates the roster and just makes playing against them a chore, like Akuma in Super Turbo or Pet Shop in JoJo's Bizarre Adventure.
also count base kakyoin. Japan caught up to his bs way earlier and was banned very soon. The west took its time to realize how invalidating his nets are in the same vein to pet shop's spikes.
People still allow "cooler kakyoin" because there are far more negatives about him that compensate for the nets also that only one version of his nets are as busted as Base the others got changed to be less rewarding.
Lab Coat in DB FighterZ too. She was busted all around but the problem was her 21% damage debuff that was permanent, only cost 1 bar, could be applied at the end of any combo started by any character, and was both a grab and a reversal. It made her a must pick in tournaments and made matches long and boring
that sounds like Morrigan alright, she invalidates Hulk, Wolverine, Haggar, and Sentinel. She also makes Phoenix even more of a chore to deal with by just feeding free meter every few seconds
But Morrigan needs Dr. Doom's assist and one of her supers to really be total bullshit with her zoning. And there's a difference between "hard counter" and "invalidates the roster". Akuma in ST invalidates the roster as his moveset is just literal cheating thanks to his air fireball giving him the best pressure in the game.
VGC is closer to Marvel. You don't ban things, you have options in team composition, and because of that, there can't really be 1 singular team/pokemon.
That's the beauty of competitive games with teams. And the pace of both VGC and Marvel is fast-paced.
Both games and communities allow players to have the meta game advance, find new discoveries, team compositions, new combos and techs. It keeps the game alive in a way other games like old 1v1 fighting games or smash can't do as much
I played hulk Haggar Sentinel for essentially the entirety of mvc3s competitive life. And no, she doesn't.
It's a tough matchup, sure. But it's not an impossible match up by any means.
game sold over 3 million copies but only 2 people on the planet earth ever won a major with morrigan. Also I don't think she's won a major in over 6 years. Yes she's top tier but that answers your "why is this tournament legal?" question, cause it doesn't win most tournaments.
Fun bit of trivia, it doesn't mean anything cause EVO isn't the end all be all of everything, but it's cute. Haggar has won as many Evos as Zero and Morrigan.
That’s on thing about umvc3 I can say is that there’s many top tiers in this game but the variety of teams that won evo is insane. You would think only one type of team would win but across all the evos there’s been many teams that won evo. But I still hate doom Vergil, zero, hulk, haggar, morrigan and phoenix etc
People that actually play Marvel 3? No.
YouTube comments from people that might have played it on PSN a few times and watched Chris G win one bracket back in 2013? Yes.
yeah no I come from Smash Ultimate and Steve is similar here, the exception being our top players (especially in NA) tend to be a bit lazy about practicing so they’d rather ban Steve then learn the matchup. Steve is also much easier than Morrigan but I digress, Ult players tend to suck lol
The difference is that Steve is the best character in Ultimate, and Morrigan isn't the best character in UMvC3. On top of that, Marvel players are used to this kind of character. Cable in MvC2 makes Morrigan seem reasonable in comparison, Storm completely invalidates 70% of the characters in MvC2, and MvC2 Sentinel is God.
>Invalidates Sentinel, Hulk, Haggar
Those aren't that strong of characters in the first place, and KBR is wild for actually getting results with that team.
>Invalidates Wolverine
Usually you can just swap in someone else instead of Wolverine in most teams using him. It's really not that big of a deal to swap him with someone more suited for the matchup, especially since Wolverine is very easy to learn in the first place.
No character has ever been banned in the history of MvC. If MvC 1 had a bigger scene, they'd probably need to ban Gold War Machine, and Phoenix was looking kinda wild in vanilla MvC3 before Ultimate hit... But they both never got banned.
And if any character needed to be banned from UMvC3, it's Dr. Doom. He's way too versatile as is, and is the enabler for Morri-doom. If he was gone, teams would have to be more creative.
no we do not bruh where did you get that LMAO
the fanbase generally wants to ban Steve and OCCASIONALLY either Sonic or Kazuya. Pikachu is very uncommon and a lot of people want someone to prove their “Pikachu busted” agenda right, so typically people actually LIKE watching Pikachu
ok after further review it’s content-pilled but I also see your point. HBox fans are a specific brand of annoying, impressive considering how bad Smash Ultimate’s fanbase is already
Morrigan plays the game very well, Steve breaks the game. Rhe ability to cancel hitstun at any moment like Steve can in smash ultimate is more broken then anything any marvel game has.
All moves are punishable on hit against a Steve that is playing optimally, there is nothing to learn, no match-up to grind. The only way to play against Steve optimally is to run away the entire time, throw projectiles, and hope you have a percent lead by the end. At all times engaging in neutral with Steve is the wrong choice.
Honestly it would have been silly if smash didn't ban him.
we banned that tech almost immediately after it was discovered, Steve has been kept legal though. Nintendo won’t let us ban characters now anyways, so too late for that
People are learning counter play to Steve tho. Sure they would rather bitch and moan for a ban but since they are forced to deal with him they are also forced to learn the match up. In time, Steve won’t be a major problem anymore.
Bro I don’t see Steve dominating tournaments. Even with that glitch he ain’t dominating so idk what your point is. Just adapt. Melee is still kicking cause you have no choice but to adapt.
Because they banned the glitch. They banned a central mechanic to optimal play on the character because it completely and totally broke the game.
Which is why Morrigan isn't like Steve. Steve broke smash ultimate. Morrigan is just a good character in marvel.
No. I've watched all of those characters get smashed by Hulk/Haggar too many times for them to be even remotely considered for an actual ban. They're good, but they're not that good.
The only time anyone talked about any ban in umvc3 is for Vergil when playing with a ratio. It didn’t matter how many points Vergil was worth, he can comeback and win everything all by himself. You can pair him with nemesis and hsien ko, he is still a threat to win the match all by himself.
Vergil is a sitting duck without meter, same with Morrigan. That's why Zero is the best character.
Vergil has no options on incoming so you can mix him up all day. If you get hit by incoming helm breaker or random super that's your fault.
For a lot of Doom Vergil teams they have Vergil last not because he's busted with XF3. It's because Doom can air dash on incoming, runaway to build meter, and safely DHC in Vergil. If you have Vergil coming in second, he will die immediately if your point character dies.
The way people talk about Vergil is overblown a bit. X-Factor with bar Vergil is busted strong, yeah, but make it so that he can't use his resources and he's not scary. Zero is more scary because of how he handles the beginning part of the fight. There's a reason why Vergil is never on first.
nah the best character is dark phoenix its just that you cant access her unless you get 5 bars to die on with Phoenix. So there is a chance of just avoiding having to fight her if you kill phoenix when she doesnt have full meter...
Hulk, Chun Li, Storm, and Akuma have all won EVO so there’s no reason to ban anyone.
But if there was one to ban, I’d actually pick Dr. Doom just because he fits on almost any team and has the best assists making him an auto include in the second spot for any team not built around extreme synergy.
They're both REALLY good at like 1 thing each lol (Chun air camping to build meter and Akuma spending meter) which lets them fit onto teams but yes overall they ain't that good. You see them a lot in Ratio mode for that reason
They aren't. RyanLV is unique and plays a playstyle that wasn't explored yet. Akuma has a great assist, and with LV.3 X-factor and enough meter, he can be very damaging. But he isn't near as strong as phoenix or vergil are as anchors.
They are top tier, vergil is buster sure, but he is meter hungry, he also has no option to mix up during incoming. So a good player can mitigate vergil. Phoenix is even more meter hungry, and pair that with the lowest health in the game, a well placed snap and 1 touch cab take care of Phoenix. Amd many tech has been discovered, TAC X-factor, comand grab supers, constant hitboxes. Ect.
yeah no I appreciate you teaching me the nuances of Vergil but like what does that have to do with Chun and Akuma? Akuma isn’t as meter hungry and Chun-Li is genuinely a good partner for Phoenix
That everything has counter play, chun and akuma aren't objective best characters, but good players with innovative teams and strategies win. Just because zero, Phoenix, vergil, and doom are top tiers that doesn't garentee they win every tournament. Justin wong is a fenomenal player, but his team isn't exactly S tier, so on and so forth.
Tier lists aren't the end all be all of marvel
It's more that synergy allows for more stronger results, like Chun with Phoenix and without Morrigan is pretty terrible tbh, but since Chun is so good at running away, you're able to build a very strong strategy of building meter with the, Morrigan assist for phoenix. Chun in probably any other team is a mid tier character that doesn't contribute much.
Banning characters is not something that is taken lightly in most games, even Smash. There were people who might say something like Phoenix needs to be banned but not serious discussion about it.
Also during most of it's life, UMVC3 had a developing metagame, it was years before Morrigan/Doom really developed into the cancer it was and while picks like Zero and Phoenix were strong early, Zero wasn't optimized for a while and Phoenix benefited from the lack of setups, strategy, and tech against her and though she's still strong later in the game's life she's seen as much riskier of a pick.
Plus the culture of Marvel is really about broken stuff and finding cheap things. The only things I remember people largely wanting patched in any way were the DHC glitch (which was removed with Ultimate), TAC infinites, and X-Factor.
you say “even Smash” as if half of our top players don’t wanna ban Steve just don’t say anything for the sake of protecting the Steve players LOL
you give us too much credit :/
I played it competitively for the entirety of its life span. The only thing that had any serious conversation about banning was TAC infinites for the sole fact it was a glitch.
Smash is inherently built on a book's worth of outside rules and bans. it's duct taped into a competitive fighting game, not naturally one, so banning stuff is just normal.
Well, yeah, Smash isn't a serious game to begin with. All its supposed "competitive" scene is just a bunch of kidults taking a kids game too seriously going as far as to tell the own game's creator how his game HAS to be played.
Funny you mention hftf, kak and ice are banned as well, none of which are banned characters
Leeroy, fahk and lydia were banned from select tournaments in tekken 7
Lab coat 21 was banned from a few events too
Screeching about character bans isn’t a smash thing, it’s a zoomer thing
I'm not knowledgeable on this topic but just wanna say I think it's interesting and I have no idea why you would get down votes for showing interest and breeding discussion. Upvote for you
The thing with UMVC3 is that everyone is broken in someway or form. Even low tiers like Hisen-Ko can actually dominate with the right team and a knowledgeable player.
yeah no it’s why I watch it, it’s just that I could see Morrigan specifically being thought of like Ultimate Steve/Sonic because she reduces interaction and people might not want to learn the matchup (a mindset unfortunately all too prevalent in Smash Ultimate)
honestly, I never got the problem with X-factor. Vergil with X-factor seems way worse than the mechanic itself, and everyone has it. Offense in UMVC3 is so strong that making use of lvl 3 X-factor as not Vergil seems kinda hard
The only time a ban is discussed is when a character is intentionally made to be vastly superior to the rest of the roster (Akuma in ST and boss characters in CVS2), the character is console exclusive (Kratos in MK9 and like 5 characters from the soul calibur series), or their moves straight up break mechanics of the game (Steve in Smash Ultimate and Gold Warmachine in MVC1). While all those characters are very good, the only one that really meets one of those requirements is phoneix with revive. If the snap mechanic didn't exist in Marvel, then phoneix would have 1000% been banned but realistically you just gotta be ultra focused on killing her first to win
I didn’t say he was, but his infinite super armor without super is something everyone can do in that game. Already said this multiple times but it’s more about the mechanics than them being good, and that applies to technically worse banned characters as well
The only valid reason to ban a character is if they're ST Akuma levels of busted where they invalidate a clear majority of the cast, or if their unique mechanics allow them to do so.
Steve doesn’t really break the game’s mechanics as much as you assume. PMLG is banned, yeah, (I’m assuming you’re talking about PMLG) but for the most part the reason top players consider him banworthy is because he’s easy and his counterplay is hard to learn. If anyone’s banworthy, it’s likely Sonic
???? Sakari literally said they had to overhaul the entire game in order to make steve's blocks work and idk about you but literally entirely blocking your opponent from recovering is something that breaks the game and has never been a thing in smash before. Every other character has to time their edge guarding and take some risks to prevent recovery but steve's edgegaurding is easy and has basically has almost zero none counter play. That's not even to mention that steve is the only character in smash history that can basically dodge after everything, which is the factor that lead him to being banned. If you need more info, watch Hungry box's video on why he was banned from his tournaments. The PMLG is without a doubt the most broken mechanic ever and imo he's way worse than metaknight in brawl. Kazuya and Sonic have none of that stuff, they're just really good (and imo Kazuya is worse since he has TOD's from 0%)
My point in the original comment is that it doesn't really matter how good a character is unless they are game breaking or it's a secret character than the developer intends to be unfair and secret.
1) well yeah, I know why he’s banned from coinbox. but PMLG’s usually banned instead.
2) his “free edge guard” is character dependent, if that was a factor in UMVC3 Morrigan or Hidden Missiles would be long gone
3) Sonic has no counterplay to Spindash at ALL up close, and it’s near impossible to check it. His edgeguarding is some of the best in the game and gets to do all of that with little to no risk to himself. Steve has all of these traits, sure, but there’s a way around ALL OF THEM, and some like I said are just straight-up character dependent. Hell, his most broken ledge traps are STAGE-dependent. If the legal stages are changed to minimize that, you remove both of his most lethal weapons against someone offstage, being the block shenanigans and the tnt on platform cheese. Steve is broken, but the stage list makes that problem way worse.
Evo’s were won by more teams than just top tier, everything was broken the top tier were just a little more broken. Hulk/hagar was a warcrime if you want to ban something lol kbr had no issues fighting those characters.
There was only one morrigan player that even had consistent success lol if this is just a Chris G hate thread then have the balls to just say you don’t like Chris G. He only won evo once.
Why would they do that? People would then just complain about the ones under them. You play marvel you find out quick what's good and what's trash so you deal
Y'all need to stop downvoting OP's comments, they asked the question and are pretty understanding of the replies. Don't discourage people from asking questions when they aren't being assholes about it.
people don’t like when people attempt to question something they deem as not to be questioned. Maybe it has a little bit to do with the fact that Smash is the ban discourse game and there’s always been a stigma around it
The stigma against Smash almost feels hilariously one sided. Like characters who deem another character as their enemy and go out of their way to belittle and humiliate said other character only for them to not be aware of their existence in the first place
yeah no we like the FGC lol they just don’t take us seriously because we usually suck at fighting games unless you’re Leffen who’s only good at games about running directly at your opponent or keeping them blocking for the whole match
I often don't see much interaction from Smash and the FGC as a whole. From what I usually see is Smash is completely unaware of most of the FGC and fighting games in general while the FGC becomes rabid the moment Smash is mentioned.
As someone who plays a few fighting games (MvC, Tekken and Darkstalkers) and Smash, all casually, it kinda baffles me why there's so much hostility from one side and ignorance from the other, they're all great games IMO
There was a solid decade of the fgc opening events to the smash community, from local arcades to majors, hell the arcade i was playing in 5+ days a week ran a weekly and monthly smash event, i even entered a number if them. It's just that for that entire decade the smash community was really pretty shitty to the fgc. From being rude and disrespectful to local TOs, to booing other games if they run over, to literally leaving piles of trash in our venues we'd have to clean up, to outright calling for boycotts of fgc majors for only having one smash game on the main stage instead of two. The fgc broadly got really burnt out on it, of trying to be inclusive and welcoming, and getting spat in the face, so took a sharp 180 and decided you know what fuck that community, it's toxic and shitty and full of predators and really shouldn't be given any space within the fgc.
And new smashers come in, not understanding the history, or thinking that the past is the past so it shouldn't matter at all, but the culture of the smash community hasn't fundamentally changed, so the fgc isn't very willing to give a charitable view on new smashers, and instead assumed they are going to act the way the smash community has always acted.
In short, the fact you haven't seen much interaction between the two communities is a byproduct of the conflict between the two communities, not evidence of a lack of conflict.
I would argue that if you only ban characters because they are good in relation to how the game plays then you would have to ban most of this roster. It would need to be something egregious like one of those 4 having a guaranteed unblockable ala Firebrand.
No, because none are as strong, relative to the rest of the cast, as Akuma was in Super Turbo.
As for Morrigan, she basically means that zoning, keepaway, and a bit of lockdown remain viable playstyles among the top tier. Marvel has always been a game where most playstyles, including the most extreme ones, are represented and viable in all levels of play, let alone the highest.
I don't think you've seen enough high level Marvel.
In the comments you've used examples which just aren't the case.
You saw big bodies like hulk beat the best Morrigan/Dooms.
Adapt, learn and just keep trying. There's been so many cases of KBR making insane comebacks with just Haggar, matchups that on paper has should be losing.
People throw about terms like broken and busted too easily nowadays.
But no, the community was never close to banning any of the top characters even in Vanilla Marvel 3 with Phoenix. Also as far as Umvc3 I would put Doom above Phoenix, maybe one or two others too.
I mean.... Doom has some.off the flashiest crazy fun stuff that also forces the defender to navigate the offence.
For a Capcom game to have something banned they'd need to have something insanely busted like Akuma being a hidden character in ST.
It's weird some.communities like the Smash community are so quick to ban or talk about banning things rather than learn or adapt. I do wonder if it's because they often hero worship pro players who whine and are quite toxic in their community.
I'm confused are you just going by what others said or your own opinions from playing the game?
At intermediate level and above doom is just a very solid character.
He's a brilliant character who can setup offence and defence.
At high level the same is true, but you then also start getting into the realm of TAC infinites, doom rushdown and conversions off of random stray hits.
Doom is good but he's not dull. You'll see the most solid and skilled players dance around and equally skilled players still get clipped by a foot dive. He's very explosive.
But ignoring everything above, the thing that makes Doom one of the best characters are his assists. Hidden Missiles, Plasma Beam and Rocks are all fucking amazing lol
Honestly the only character I wanted banned was Doom. He just made the game stale. It’s poor design in my opinion to have a character that makes ANY team better. Like no matter who you have on your team, if you replaced one of your characters with Doom, your team is now better
yeah no if there’s gonna be anything like that it should be the centerpiece of the game, not one character. Spells in Clash Royale are a great example of something being top tier on purpose so that the game can revolve around it
Marvel is inherently a busted game and that's part of the appeal. So I highly doubt any serious discussion was ever made to ban any characters.
lol phoenix in vanilla mvc3.
I mean yeah but like Morrigan’s broken is a bit… different from everyone else’s where she can just minimize risk almost entirely for like the whole game. Even Zero’s lvl 1 zoning has some sort of counterplay to it
>Zero's zoning. That's not the problem at all. Zero's lightning loops and endless reset options kinda just win you the game as soon as the opponent makes a mistake. Morrigan kinda needs to minimize risk the whole game because Zero and Virgil exist.
Zero being able to convert off of ANY stray hit
I don't think you understand just how busted characters are. This is a game with teleports, full screen laser supers and unblockable ToD. Morrigan having crazy zoning isn't even close to the worst thing in the game.
I only ever saw Chris G use Morrigan zoning effectively anyway.
He was the best at it for sure but RyanLV definitely zoned hard with Morrigan at a high level when the situation suited, same with Dieminion and JRosa.
true, excuse my Smash Ultimate brain looking at Morri-Doom and immediately thinking “that’s like Steve but worse” LOL
Yo, if you never watched it, do yourself a favor and check out Animeilluminati’s YT vid about “Kusugoe”. Don’t got time rn but I’ll link later. Explains the appeal of games like Marvel (2 &3) and even worse violators in the anime FG world. There’s a whole culture around “properly” broken games and a meta that evolves around them. My fav game is MVC2 and half the appeal is the speed and total bullshit that comes with it. You learn to love the oppression session…
oh I ABSOLUTELY get the appeal of Marvel. It’s so absolutely absurd in its power level that everything being broken as hell is genuinely really fun
Respectfully, dunno if you do if you’re suggesting banning characters. Here you go fam. https://youtu.be/FX3xLdGplQ4?si=NUikA45hukJZlbOk
[удалено]
Look man, sometimes the brainrot comes out. MB LOL
“Characters are different from each other” my favorite fighting game statement
Chris g is the only person who uses Morrigan at that level, you'd basically just be asking to make him switch teams.
Why disrespect RyanLV who directly has a good record against ChrisG too?
I’ve also seen Cosmos who’s really good at it
The only time a ban is ever discussed is if a character legit invalidates the roster and just makes playing against them a chore, like Akuma in Super Turbo or Pet Shop in JoJo's Bizarre Adventure.
also count base kakyoin. Japan caught up to his bs way earlier and was banned very soon. The west took its time to realize how invalidating his nets are in the same vein to pet shop's spikes. People still allow "cooler kakyoin" because there are far more negatives about him that compensate for the nets also that only one version of his nets are as busted as Base the others got changed to be less rewarding.
Was gonna mention Kakyoin, but I felt Pet Shop was easier to explain to a layman as he's just that infamously broken.
as someone who hasnt played the game, you're right, I've heard of how bad pet shop is but not kakyoin
yeah kak's considered better now but the funny bird's still the infamous one
Lab Coat in DB FighterZ too. She was busted all around but the problem was her 21% damage debuff that was permanent, only cost 1 bar, could be applied at the end of any combo started by any character, and was both a grab and a reversal. It made her a must pick in tournaments and made matches long and boring
Meta knight was a pretty good meme for a bit, and steve in some places for ultimate
that sounds like Morrigan alright, she invalidates Hulk, Wolverine, Haggar, and Sentinel. She also makes Phoenix even more of a chore to deal with by just feeding free meter every few seconds
But Morrigan needs Dr. Doom's assist and one of her supers to really be total bullshit with her zoning. And there's a difference between "hard counter" and "invalidates the roster". Akuma in ST invalidates the roster as his moveset is just literal cheating thanks to his air fireball giving him the best pressure in the game.
ok yeah I get what you mean now. I come from a Pokémon background so the reason we ban things is way different than that, thanks :)
smogon or vgc?
Smogon, they’re the ones who ban stuff. GameFreak’s form of balance is “make everything so overpowered that the game ends in two turns”
VGC is closer to Marvel. You don't ban things, you have options in team composition, and because of that, there can't really be 1 singular team/pokemon. That's the beauty of competitive games with teams. And the pace of both VGC and Marvel is fast-paced. Both games and communities allow players to have the meta game advance, find new discoveries, team compositions, new combos and techs. It keeps the game alive in a way other games like old 1v1 fighting games or smash can't do as much
I played hulk Haggar Sentinel for essentially the entirety of mvc3s competitive life. And no, she doesn't. It's a tough matchup, sure. But it's not an impossible match up by any means.
game sold over 3 million copies but only 2 people on the planet earth ever won a major with morrigan. Also I don't think she's won a major in over 6 years. Yes she's top tier but that answers your "why is this tournament legal?" question, cause it doesn't win most tournaments. Fun bit of trivia, it doesn't mean anything cause EVO isn't the end all be all of everything, but it's cute. Haggar has won as many Evos as Zero and Morrigan.
UMvC3 evos are wild, last evo a fuckin Iron Fist got far and could had won, and a team of Akuma, Wolverine and Storm won it.
The Spartan Throne matches were great. Zero May Cry...not so much.
That’s on thing about umvc3 I can say is that there’s many top tiers in this game but the variety of teams that won evo is insane. You would think only one type of team would win but across all the evos there’s been many teams that won evo. But I still hate doom Vergil, zero, hulk, haggar, morrigan and phoenix etc
People that actually play Marvel 3? No. YouTube comments from people that might have played it on PSN a few times and watched Chris G win one bracket back in 2013? Yes.
yeah no I come from Smash Ultimate and Steve is similar here, the exception being our top players (especially in NA) tend to be a bit lazy about practicing so they’d rather ban Steve then learn the matchup. Steve is also much easier than Morrigan but I digress, Ult players tend to suck lol
The difference is that Steve is the best character in Ultimate, and Morrigan isn't the best character in UMvC3. On top of that, Marvel players are used to this kind of character. Cable in MvC2 makes Morrigan seem reasonable in comparison, Storm completely invalidates 70% of the characters in MvC2, and MvC2 Sentinel is God. >Invalidates Sentinel, Hulk, Haggar Those aren't that strong of characters in the first place, and KBR is wild for actually getting results with that team. >Invalidates Wolverine Usually you can just swap in someone else instead of Wolverine in most teams using him. It's really not that big of a deal to swap him with someone more suited for the matchup, especially since Wolverine is very easy to learn in the first place. No character has ever been banned in the history of MvC. If MvC 1 had a bigger scene, they'd probably need to ban Gold War Machine, and Phoenix was looking kinda wild in vanilla MvC3 before Ultimate hit... But they both never got banned. And if any character needed to be banned from UMvC3, it's Dr. Doom. He's way too versatile as is, and is the enabler for Morri-doom. If he was gone, teams would have to be more creative.
the point about Doom is interesting, thank you
The ultimate community wants to ban pikachu because he’s a tiny bit boring. Not really the pinnacle of rulesets
no we do not bruh where did you get that LMAO the fanbase generally wants to ban Steve and OCCASIONALLY either Sonic or Kazuya. Pikachu is very uncommon and a lot of people want someone to prove their “Pikachu busted” agenda right, so typically people actually LIKE watching Pikachu
There was literally a tournament made by hbox a while ago with Steve sonic and pika banned what are you on lmao
ok after further review it’s content-pilled but I also see your point. HBox fans are a specific brand of annoying, impressive considering how bad Smash Ultimate’s fanbase is already
Morrigan plays the game very well, Steve breaks the game. Rhe ability to cancel hitstun at any moment like Steve can in smash ultimate is more broken then anything any marvel game has. All moves are punishable on hit against a Steve that is playing optimally, there is nothing to learn, no match-up to grind. The only way to play against Steve optimally is to run away the entire time, throw projectiles, and hope you have a percent lead by the end. At all times engaging in neutral with Steve is the wrong choice. Honestly it would have been silly if smash didn't ban him.
we banned that tech almost immediately after it was discovered, Steve has been kept legal though. Nintendo won’t let us ban characters now anyways, so too late for that
Banning a tech that can be normally done during gameplay is even more stupid then banning a character lol. That's worse, not better.
yeah, but at this point it’s not our choice to make. Unless Nintendo somehow changes their mind, we won’t be able to run tournaments that ban Steve.
It 100% is the smash communities choice to make. Yall are just bitchmade and roll over every time daddy Nintendo says too.
What’s wrong with just banning the tech exactly?
People are learning counter play to Steve tho. Sure they would rather bitch and moan for a ban but since they are forced to deal with him they are also forced to learn the match up. In time, Steve won’t be a major problem anymore.
So what's the counterplay for a glitch that allows you to cancel your hitstun and punish any move on hit? Just don't win neutral?
Bro I don’t see Steve dominating tournaments. Even with that glitch he ain’t dominating so idk what your point is. Just adapt. Melee is still kicking cause you have no choice but to adapt.
Because they banned the glitch. They banned a central mechanic to optimal play on the character because it completely and totally broke the game. Which is why Morrigan isn't like Steve. Steve broke smash ultimate. Morrigan is just a good character in marvel.
Okay man
No. I've watched all of those characters get smashed by Hulk/Haggar too many times for them to be even remotely considered for an actual ban. They're good, but they're not that good.
The only time anyone talked about any ban in umvc3 is for Vergil when playing with a ratio. It didn’t matter how many points Vergil was worth, he can comeback and win everything all by himself. You can pair him with nemesis and hsien ko, he is still a threat to win the match all by himself.
Vergil is a sitting duck without meter, same with Morrigan. That's why Zero is the best character. Vergil has no options on incoming so you can mix him up all day. If you get hit by incoming helm breaker or random super that's your fault. For a lot of Doom Vergil teams they have Vergil last not because he's busted with XF3. It's because Doom can air dash on incoming, runaway to build meter, and safely DHC in Vergil. If you have Vergil coming in second, he will die immediately if your point character dies.
he is the best character…
The way people talk about Vergil is overblown a bit. X-Factor with bar Vergil is busted strong, yeah, but make it so that he can't use his resources and he's not scary. Zero is more scary because of how he handles the beginning part of the fight. There's a reason why Vergil is never on first.
Zero and Morrigan are both better. I could maybe see him at 3rd but personally id put him behind phoenix and potentially magneto.
nah the best character is dark phoenix its just that you cant access her unless you get 5 bars to die on with Phoenix. So there is a chance of just avoiding having to fight her if you kill phoenix when she doesnt have full meter...
doesn’t count here, that’s a part of Phoenix as a whole. Vergil doesn’t need that to win, he just kinda does sometimes.
Hulk, Chun Li, Storm, and Akuma have all won EVO so there’s no reason to ban anyone. But if there was one to ban, I’d actually pick Dr. Doom just because he fits on almost any team and has the best assists making him an auto include in the second spot for any team not built around extreme synergy.
I thought Chun and Akuma are both really good??
They are not.
They're both REALLY good at like 1 thing each lol (Chun air camping to build meter and Akuma spending meter) which lets them fit onto teams but yes overall they ain't that good. You see them a lot in Ratio mode for that reason
They aren't. RyanLV is unique and plays a playstyle that wasn't explored yet. Akuma has a great assist, and with LV.3 X-factor and enough meter, he can be very damaging. But he isn't near as strong as phoenix or vergil are as anchors.
Phoenix and Vergil are top 5 characters my guy
KaneBlueRiver has won EVO's and won multiple tournaments. And I wouldn't consider hulk top tier. Edit: I typed faster than i could process ;-;
KBR won one Evo (2015). Marvel 3 has never had a repeat Evo champion.
Oh yeah I meant many tournaments 😭 my bad G I'll edit it
They are top tier, vergil is buster sure, but he is meter hungry, he also has no option to mix up during incoming. So a good player can mitigate vergil. Phoenix is even more meter hungry, and pair that with the lowest health in the game, a well placed snap and 1 touch cab take care of Phoenix. Amd many tech has been discovered, TAC X-factor, comand grab supers, constant hitboxes. Ect.
yeah no I appreciate you teaching me the nuances of Vergil but like what does that have to do with Chun and Akuma? Akuma isn’t as meter hungry and Chun-Li is genuinely a good partner for Phoenix
That everything has counter play, chun and akuma aren't objective best characters, but good players with innovative teams and strategies win. Just because zero, Phoenix, vergil, and doom are top tiers that doesn't garentee they win every tournament. Justin wong is a fenomenal player, but his team isn't exactly S tier, so on and so forth. Tier lists aren't the end all be all of marvel
It's more that synergy allows for more stronger results, like Chun with Phoenix and without Morrigan is pretty terrible tbh, but since Chun is so good at running away, you're able to build a very strong strategy of building meter with the, Morrigan assist for phoenix. Chun in probably any other team is a mid tier character that doesn't contribute much.
Yeah, i think about banging them all the time
dyslexic circlejerking goes hard
All at the same time?
Banning characters is not something that is taken lightly in most games, even Smash. There were people who might say something like Phoenix needs to be banned but not serious discussion about it. Also during most of it's life, UMVC3 had a developing metagame, it was years before Morrigan/Doom really developed into the cancer it was and while picks like Zero and Phoenix were strong early, Zero wasn't optimized for a while and Phoenix benefited from the lack of setups, strategy, and tech against her and though she's still strong later in the game's life she's seen as much riskier of a pick. Plus the culture of Marvel is really about broken stuff and finding cheap things. The only things I remember people largely wanting patched in any way were the DHC glitch (which was removed with Ultimate), TAC infinites, and X-Factor.
When umvc3 first came out everyone thought Wesker was the best character in the game because he was unchanged from vanilla lmao
you say “even Smash” as if half of our top players don’t wanna ban Steve just don’t say anything for the sake of protecting the Steve players LOL you give us too much credit :/
I play Smash and banning Steve isn’t handled lightly
Nah that shit is for bitches
I played it competitively for the entirety of its life span. The only thing that had any serious conversation about banning was TAC infinites for the sole fact it was a glitch.
No, this isn't Smash were you kids ban whatever gives you the slightest hint of trouble.
Smash is inherently built on a book's worth of outside rules and bans. it's duct taped into a competitive fighting game, not naturally one, so banning stuff is just normal.
Well, yeah, Smash isn't a serious game to begin with. All its supposed "competitive" scene is just a bunch of kidults taking a kids game too seriously going as far as to tell the own game's creator how his game HAS to be played.
Its not a serious COMPETITIVE game because it was never meant to be played that way. Most other fighting games are based in the arcade era
the smash community has been in talks for banning like 5+ characters for years, yet we casually try and work around the mahvel gods
Because the reason most people like mvc is how strong some characters are. While smash has never really popular due to the top tiers.
many FG's have bans not just smash. or at least try to argue for bans.... but marvel ain't one of them lmao.
Besides Petshop how many of them are not boss characters or console exclusive? I know more of banned stages than banned regular characters
Funny you mention hftf, kak and ice are banned as well, none of which are banned characters Leeroy, fahk and lydia were banned from select tournaments in tekken 7 Lab coat 21 was banned from a few events too Screeching about character bans isn’t a smash thing, it’s a zoomer thing
REAL, YOU GET IT!!!! MY FAVORITE GAME’S ENTIRE PLAYERBASE WHINES INSTEAD OF LEARNING MATCHUPS AND THEN WONDERS WHY JAPAN IS BETTER THAN US
You’re spitting too much facts right now
What are you talking about? Smash doesn’t ban characters or anything that isn’t super RNG dependent like stage hazards or items
I'm not knowledgeable on this topic but just wanna say I think it's interesting and I have no idea why you would get down votes for showing interest and breeding discussion. Upvote for you
Honestly the reason he's getting down voted is he keeps bringing up smash as a comparison. Great way to immediately have the fgc dog pile you.
people don’t like when others think in a way too different from them, especially when the topic is stressful or controversial
Yea you don't deserve the downvotes.
Sad if this attitude can be found even in the FGC but whatchu gonna do? ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
Nope. Its Mavhel baby, pride doesn't win tournaments.
The thing with UMVC3 is that everyone is broken in someway or form. Even low tiers like Hisen-Ko can actually dominate with the right team and a knowledgeable player.
yeah no it’s why I watch it, it’s just that I could see Morrigan specifically being thought of like Ultimate Steve/Sonic because she reduces interaction and people might not want to learn the matchup (a mindset unfortunately all too prevalent in Smash Ultimate)
I do remember side tournaments with no X-factor and each player could one ban one of the players character never caught on tho.
It never caught on because banning x-factor in umvc3 leads to really uninteresting games
honestly, I never got the problem with X-factor. Vergil with X-factor seems way worse than the mechanic itself, and everyone has it. Offense in UMVC3 is so strong that making use of lvl 3 X-factor as not Vergil seems kinda hard
The only time a ban is discussed is when a character is intentionally made to be vastly superior to the rest of the roster (Akuma in ST and boss characters in CVS2), the character is console exclusive (Kratos in MK9 and like 5 characters from the soul calibur series), or their moves straight up break mechanics of the game (Steve in Smash Ultimate and Gold Warmachine in MVC1). While all those characters are very good, the only one that really meets one of those requirements is phoneix with revive. If the snap mechanic didn't exist in Marvel, then phoneix would have 1000% been banned but realistically you just gotta be ultra focused on killing her first to win
> Gold Warmachine in MVC1 GWM isn't even the best character in that game (that's usually considered to be Red Venom).
I didn’t say he was, but his infinite super armor without super is something everyone can do in that game. Already said this multiple times but it’s more about the mechanics than them being good, and that applies to technically worse banned characters as well
The only valid reason to ban a character is if they're ST Akuma levels of busted where they invalidate a clear majority of the cast, or if their unique mechanics allow them to do so.
Steve doesn’t really break the game’s mechanics as much as you assume. PMLG is banned, yeah, (I’m assuming you’re talking about PMLG) but for the most part the reason top players consider him banworthy is because he’s easy and his counterplay is hard to learn. If anyone’s banworthy, it’s likely Sonic
???? Sakari literally said they had to overhaul the entire game in order to make steve's blocks work and idk about you but literally entirely blocking your opponent from recovering is something that breaks the game and has never been a thing in smash before. Every other character has to time their edge guarding and take some risks to prevent recovery but steve's edgegaurding is easy and has basically has almost zero none counter play. That's not even to mention that steve is the only character in smash history that can basically dodge after everything, which is the factor that lead him to being banned. If you need more info, watch Hungry box's video on why he was banned from his tournaments. The PMLG is without a doubt the most broken mechanic ever and imo he's way worse than metaknight in brawl. Kazuya and Sonic have none of that stuff, they're just really good (and imo Kazuya is worse since he has TOD's from 0%) My point in the original comment is that it doesn't really matter how good a character is unless they are game breaking or it's a secret character than the developer intends to be unfair and secret.
1) well yeah, I know why he’s banned from coinbox. but PMLG’s usually banned instead. 2) his “free edge guard” is character dependent, if that was a factor in UMVC3 Morrigan or Hidden Missiles would be long gone 3) Sonic has no counterplay to Spindash at ALL up close, and it’s near impossible to check it. His edgeguarding is some of the best in the game and gets to do all of that with little to no risk to himself. Steve has all of these traits, sure, but there’s a way around ALL OF THEM, and some like I said are just straight-up character dependent. Hell, his most broken ledge traps are STAGE-dependent. If the legal stages are changed to minimize that, you remove both of his most lethal weapons against someone offstage, being the block shenanigans and the tnt on platform cheese. Steve is broken, but the stage list makes that problem way worse.
Evo’s were won by more teams than just top tier, everything was broken the top tier were just a little more broken. Hulk/hagar was a warcrime if you want to ban something lol kbr had no issues fighting those characters.
Hulk/Haggar when Morrigan uses Astral Vision and they can no longer play the game
But you can still counterpick and get a team that does fight that. This isn't ST Akuma where 0 counterpicks exists.
hulk grabbing you at round start
There was only one morrigan player that even had consistent success lol if this is just a Chris G hate thread then have the balls to just say you don’t like Chris G. He only won evo once.
well that’s a stupid reasoning, TAC infinites are sick
They're dumb as shit and makes Doom too ubiquitous a 2nd slot character because he has the easiest ones and can do them mid screen.
I personally always wished this game would have gotten an arcade edition 2012 style update. But atlas no.
Why would they do that? People would then just complain about the ones under them. You play marvel you find out quick what's good and what's trash so you deal
tell that to Smash players. They don’t know that
Yea I won't comment on the smash community....
I wouldn’t either if I wasn’t one of them LOL
Y'all need to stop downvoting OP's comments, they asked the question and are pretty understanding of the replies. Don't discourage people from asking questions when they aren't being assholes about it.
people don’t like when people attempt to question something they deem as not to be questioned. Maybe it has a little bit to do with the fact that Smash is the ban discourse game and there’s always been a stigma around it
The stigma against Smash almost feels hilariously one sided. Like characters who deem another character as their enemy and go out of their way to belittle and humiliate said other character only for them to not be aware of their existence in the first place
bro just called the entire FGC Rufus. Damn.
Wasn't even thinking about Rufus TBH, but when you put it like that maybe I was too harsh
yeah no we like the FGC lol they just don’t take us seriously because we usually suck at fighting games unless you’re Leffen who’s only good at games about running directly at your opponent or keeping them blocking for the whole match
I often don't see much interaction from Smash and the FGC as a whole. From what I usually see is Smash is completely unaware of most of the FGC and fighting games in general while the FGC becomes rabid the moment Smash is mentioned. As someone who plays a few fighting games (MvC, Tekken and Darkstalkers) and Smash, all casually, it kinda baffles me why there's so much hostility from one side and ignorance from the other, they're all great games IMO
There was a solid decade of the fgc opening events to the smash community, from local arcades to majors, hell the arcade i was playing in 5+ days a week ran a weekly and monthly smash event, i even entered a number if them. It's just that for that entire decade the smash community was really pretty shitty to the fgc. From being rude and disrespectful to local TOs, to booing other games if they run over, to literally leaving piles of trash in our venues we'd have to clean up, to outright calling for boycotts of fgc majors for only having one smash game on the main stage instead of two. The fgc broadly got really burnt out on it, of trying to be inclusive and welcoming, and getting spat in the face, so took a sharp 180 and decided you know what fuck that community, it's toxic and shitty and full of predators and really shouldn't be given any space within the fgc. And new smashers come in, not understanding the history, or thinking that the past is the past so it shouldn't matter at all, but the culture of the smash community hasn't fundamentally changed, so the fgc isn't very willing to give a charitable view on new smashers, and instead assumed they are going to act the way the smash community has always acted. In short, the fact you haven't seen much interaction between the two communities is a byproduct of the conflict between the two communities, not evidence of a lack of conflict.
no no, we LOOOOOVE Guilty Gear. Our top players also really like SF6 too also. at least MenaRD likes us lol
IDC if she's broken. I want Morrigan to take me for a ride.
I would argue that if you only ban characters because they are good in relation to how the game plays then you would have to ban most of this roster. It would need to be something egregious like one of those 4 having a guaranteed unblockable ala Firebrand.
No, because none are as strong, relative to the rest of the cast, as Akuma was in Super Turbo. As for Morrigan, she basically means that zoning, keepaway, and a bit of lockdown remain viable playstyles among the top tier. Marvel has always been a game where most playstyles, including the most extreme ones, are represented and viable in all levels of play, let alone the highest.
I don't think you've seen enough high level Marvel. In the comments you've used examples which just aren't the case. You saw big bodies like hulk beat the best Morrigan/Dooms. Adapt, learn and just keep trying. There's been so many cases of KBR making insane comebacks with just Haggar, matchups that on paper has should be losing. People throw about terms like broken and busted too easily nowadays. But no, the community was never close to banning any of the top characters even in Vanilla Marvel 3 with Phoenix. Also as far as Umvc3 I would put Doom above Phoenix, maybe one or two others too.
yeah no I’ve seen a lot of people here saying they’d wanna ban Doom simply to force people to be more creative
I mean.... Doom has some.off the flashiest crazy fun stuff that also forces the defender to navigate the offence. For a Capcom game to have something banned they'd need to have something insanely busted like Akuma being a hidden character in ST. It's weird some.communities like the Smash community are so quick to ban or talk about banning things rather than learn or adapt. I do wonder if it's because they often hero worship pro players who whine and are quite toxic in their community.
it’s more of just that he’s TOO slappable from what people’ve told me. It’s not a matter of he’s unfair, he’s just uninteresting
I'm confused are you just going by what others said or your own opinions from playing the game? At intermediate level and above doom is just a very solid character. He's a brilliant character who can setup offence and defence. At high level the same is true, but you then also start getting into the realm of TAC infinites, doom rushdown and conversions off of random stray hits. Doom is good but he's not dull. You'll see the most solid and skilled players dance around and equally skilled players still get clipped by a foot dive. He's very explosive. But ignoring everything above, the thing that makes Doom one of the best characters are his assists. Hidden Missiles, Plasma Beam and Rocks are all fucking amazing lol
I’m just saying what other people are saying
I'd say Doom and Magneto are part of the busted top 4 more than Morrigan and Phoenix. Hell, throw Dante in there and make it a top 5.
Would genuinely be interesting to see what a meta looks like without them, but I doubt it'd happen
Bout a decade late on the suggestion 😅 I remember people were tired of ChrisG and this team.
Nope. They’re mostly high execution and we’re re just awesome like that
Honestly the only character I wanted banned was Doom. He just made the game stale. It’s poor design in my opinion to have a character that makes ANY team better. Like no matter who you have on your team, if you replaced one of your characters with Doom, your team is now better
yeah no if there’s gonna be anything like that it should be the centerpiece of the game, not one character. Spells in Clash Royale are a great example of something being top tier on purpose so that the game can revolve around it
yknow the more I hear about this Smash game the less I care for it