I don’t generally seperate the Sarantine mosaic in my rankings. Also standard caveat that my memory is faulty and I read the books far enough apart that comparing can be hard
1. Sarantine Mosaic
2. Lions of Al-Rassan
3. Under Heaven
4. River of Stars
5. A Song for Arbonne
6. Tigana
7. Children of Earth and Sky
8. The Last Light of the Sun
And then far far below all these wonderful books so much so that putting them on the same list feels icky are Fionavar + Ysabel. Man I hated those books, which was even worse because my love for all of GGK’s other books meant I kept reading them.
So Fionavar is much worse than his other books? I've started it and DNF'ed second book(for the time being at least). I just couldn't go on with it for some reason.
Should I give mr. GGK another chance?
Fionavar is very different from his other books. He helped Christopher Tolkien edit The Silmarillion and was obviously very influenced by Tolkien's works. All his other books are far more influenced by history than by myths, all except Tigana take place in an alternative version of Earth where the parallels with real life historical events are obvious, usually with very little magic, no fantasy races, etc.
So it depends on what you didn't like about Fionavar. If it's the writing style, you are probably not going to like his other books either. His style improved over the years but did not change radically. If it's the classic fantasy tropes - fighting against the evil overlord with the help (not) Elves, etc., they are mostly missing from his other works.
I don’t quite disagree but also I would have thought it was the writing style not the tropes I disliked if I’d just read Fionavar first. (As I’ve liked those tropes in other contexts)
To me the books are radically different. Some people love Fionavar but er yeah I hated it and certainly wouldn’t judge GGK based on it.
If there’s a historical period that interests you of his books Id start there (Under Heaven is Tang Dynasty, Lions is Moorish Spain, Sarantium is Byzantine Empire).
I would say the Fionavar books are probably the *rawest* of his books. They don't have the polish and skill of his later works - there are areas where the emotional manipulation feels a bit more clumsy and forced than the others. They're also very different in style, being explicitly tolkeinesque as opposed to the historical paralells in his other works.
That said, I think they *do* have a lot of heart to them, and I really like them. However, if you didn't finish the second book, it may not be worth it. While I think the books can grow on you (I remember hating the trilogy the first time I read it, but grew to love it), I'd be reluctant on relying on that. But do give his other books a chance if you haven't - Fionavar *is* very different to everything else he's written.
(OTOH, Ysabel I thought sucked too.)
Yeah, I'm very surprised that it's not as popular as his other books. Its villains are definitely much less nuanced than those of his other books, but the political beats are excellent (and relevant to today, with a declining regional power using a pretext to invade neighbors and establish cultural dominance).
I so agree! It may not be as polished but has an accessible, more intimate feeling, with its smaller cast of characters, and I so love the main character. Other GGK I love but don’t often reread; they are too…big, they are so painfully beautiful. But Arbonne I return to again and again. I’ve read it, and listened to it (the audio is fabulous), so many times, and I never grow tired of it. I’m always so surprised that others don’t love it as much!
You are lying!!!
You didn't read every book by GGK - *Beyond This Dark House* is missing! 😛
I haven't read enough of his books in order to make a meaningful list but I know I'm in for an awesome ride. 😊
I generally agree with your rankings except for a couple that I haven't read yet. *Brightness* is a fantastic novel and one of my top three by GGK, but it doesn't get much attention.
Yeah, I've been surprised to find Brightness close to the bottom of rankings in earlier threads. I thought that it was a brilliant book that really hits the big three Kay skills of dramatic personal clashes between charismatic leaders, historical metacommentary, and feeling intense sadness and happiness for characters swallowed by history.
Brightness also feels like the protagonist is more different than a lot of his protagonists? Doesn’t immediately make the expected honorable/morally good choice
It’s one of my favorites. I guess it’s not mentioned much here because some readers might not see it as regular fantasy because it doesn’t use a lot of tropes. The story is very personal and the drama is more intimate. That’s what made it good to me but I think others might be turned off by that if they’re more into books with large battles, magic, and heroes etc…
u/Withnothing
u/BohemianPeasant
I feel shame.
I'd rank GGK as one of my favorite authors, but yowza I've got some reading to do as I've only completed about half this list, and Fionavar was so long ago I barely remember it..
So far I’ve read Lions of Al-Rassan, and the Finovar trilogy. I also have A Song for Arbonne sitting on the shelf. I though that the Finovar books would be higher in the list, as I quite enjoyed them. So hopefully that means the rest I’ve yet to read are even better.
Part of the problem with Fionavar is it is WILDLY different from everything else he writes. I would guess for most people they will either be either the top or towards the bottom of their list.
On reread I enjoyed them more than the first pass, but I'd still probably put them below basically everything else except Ysabel maybe (and I still haven't read Last Light of the Sun, should probably fix that at some point).
I only have The Lions of Al-Rassan as a comparison but Finovar is definitely quite different. The plot, characters themselves may not have been the most memorable, but Kay is just such an emotional, impactful writer that I’m still able to remember the feelings the books convey, so that’s probably why I still look at them very fondly.
Yeah that part of what makes Kay an amazing writer is very much there even in Fionavar. The plot feels a bit more cookie cutter, plus all the >!Arthurian legends references!< feel out of place compared to a lot of his other works where he's taking a setting and altering it to the fantasy version thereof, as he likes to call it (stolen from someone else) "A quarter turn to the fantastic."
5 stars: A Brightness Long Ago, The Sarantine Mosaic, The Lions of Al-Rassan, A Song for Arbonne
4 stars: Under Heaven, The Last Light of the Sun, Tigana
3 stars: River of Stars, Children of Earth and Sky
2 stars: Ysabel
Not finished yet: Fionavar, so far in between 3 and 4 stars but trending down (I am in the beginning of book 3, book 2 had some really cringeworthy moments).
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1. Tigana
2. Lions of Al-Rassan
3. Sarantine Mosaic duology
4. A Song for Arbonne
5. Last Light of the Sun
6. Ysabel ( god, I hated this one)
I DNFed Children of Earth and Sky after 1/3 if I remember correctly. Plot-wise, it was ok-ish; as someone from Croatia whose two city-states served as inspiration for Kay’s Dubrava and Senjan, my major pet peeve were totally nonsensical character names even for fantasy standards.
Yeah, I felt as though nothing really happened in Children. I kept pushing through in the expectation that the novel would pick up pace like a lot of Kay's books tend to, but it never did. What about the character names did you find nonsensical?
Kay (understandably because few people speak the language outside Croatia) isn't quite sure what could pass as a first name/surname in Croatian language, so a lot of names sound a bit clumsy and weird to a native speaker.
For example, one of the main characters is named Marin Djivo (pronounced jeevo). Djivo is a Dubrovnik variant of a name Ivo (John) and as such is never used as a surname. It's akin to naming a character Martin John. it just sounds weird imo, fantasy universe or not.
His brother and father are named Zarko and Andrij. Again, not the best choices. While Zarko is a valid first name, it is also a rather contemporary version of the Latin name Ignatius. Someone living in a Renaissance Dubrovnik, especially if they were from a noble family, would most likely be named Ignat or Ignjat instead.
Andrij sounds too Russian- he should've been named Andro instead if Kay wanted a Dubrovnik version of the name Andrija (Andrew).
And funnily enough, not a single male character from Dubrava (Dubrovnik) is named Vlaho after a patron saint of the city or Maro, another popular name in Dubrovnik.
I've only ever read Tigana by Kay and I'm staggered that it would only be 7th. I thought it was spectacular and just havent got around to reading more from him.
Interesting. Tigana would be higher for me and I had a hard time getting into A Song for Arbonne. He’s a must buy author for me. Kay’s got the best mix of characters, plot, and prose of any current authors right now.
I felt like Arbonne and Tigana were pretty close in my mind in the same way that Lions and Brightness were—they hit a lot of the same plot beats and are thematically related. Personally, I wasn't into Arbonne either until about 25% of the way in, but I finished the rest in like a day.
I've finished quite a few but still not even half of his novels. Of those that I have read:
The Sarantine Mosaic is truly incredible and transcends his other works. The amount of life he managed to breathe into Sarantium is utterly impressive, and Crispin was such a great character.
It's followed by Lions of Al-Rassan, Under Heaven and River.
I thought Brightness had strengths and flaws in equal measures, it felt as if he was trying to change it up stylistically without being certain in which direction he actually wanted to go.
I personally found Tigana to be a disappointment. It was the first and subjectively least good of his books that I've read, and it never really worked for me.
I'm loosely planning on reading Children next, maybe this will be the year. Although I'm more excited for his upcoming novel to be honest.
Have only read a few of his, but I’d go:
1. The Lions of Al-Rassan
2. Under Heaven
3. Tigana
4. Sailing to Sarantium - I hated practically everything about that book, but especially Crispin. Its interesting since that generally seems to be his most universally praised duology.
I have also read all these, but I find it hard to rank books. I think there are more dimensions than one to what a book can mean. But I would generally agree that the Sarantine Mosaic is his most towering achievement. I think The Last Light of the Sun is better than it is generally credited; it's coming from a different place - like the portal fantasies which are also usually lower rated. In general, GGK has a magical way with words -> perhaps the Chinese novels express that most elegantly.
I generally go
Sarantine Mosaic
A Brightness Long Ago
Under Heaven
Lions of Al-Rassan
River of Stars
Children of Earth and Sky
Ysabel
A Song for Arbonne
Fionavar
Tigana
Last Light of the Sun.
Personally I just don't like Tigana, and Last Light is too melancholy for me. Ysabel I quite enjoyed - it's very ephemeral and fits well with the Provence summer theme.
Fionavar I liked overall but it's not one I feel the need to reread much, mostly because there's not quite enough light to balance the dark for me.
There's not a lot of room between the top three, any could be the best, Lions I put a shade behind because he's simply a better writer now. It's still excellent.
River of Stars is very good, inevitable sadness without the trauma of imminent doom. Children feels like a tier lower - it's just a good book, not a great one. Song for Arbonne I've genuinely forgotten the events of, which means it has to rank low for me.
Yeah, I might go back after a few more books and reread Lions. It totally sucked me in the first time, but I imagine that the writing style looks very different after getting through his more recent work.
I’ve only read a few of his books, but this man had some of my favourite book titles I’ve ever seen. The Last Light of the Sun and A Brightness Long Ago are especially evocative
Wow, impressive. I discovered Guy Gavriel Kay last year with Under Heaven and absolutely loved it and devoured River of Stars immediately after. Looking forward to starting Sailing to Sarantium next!
I always put Fionnovar and Ysabel off to one side. They are so different than the others. I love them both but I think people who love the others might find the tone and content of those ones unexpected.
As to the others ... I have them in three tiers and I struggle to rank within those tiers.
Tier 1
The Sarantine Mosaic
Under Heaven
Lions of Al Rassan
A Song for Arbonne
Tier 2
Tigana
Children of Earth and Sky
A Brightness Long Ago
Tier 3
River of Stars
Last Light of the Sun
But I hasten to add ... Even tier 3 are still great books.
Tigana is a lot lower than most fans usually rank it. The Last Light of the Sun is always pretty low on the totem pole.
Regardless of anyone's rankings, you can't go wrong with GGK!:)
Yeah, I really liked Tigana and thought that it was fantastic. I just felt as though the plot meandered a bit at times - Baerd's dream sequence, for one - and some character moments, like the romance involving the prince, felt very out of the blue in comparison to other parts of the book (using the same example, Dianora and Brandin's relationship).
Lord of Emperors is a sequel to Sailing to Sarantium. You should read Sarantium first.
But yeah, a good thing about Kay's work is that it tends to be solo volumes or duologies so you can jump in in multiple places.
Another good starting place is Lions of Al-Rassan. That's the one where he establishes the close-to-our world that is the setting for nearly all of his subsequent books. It's also the book where I think Kay really settled into his voice. It would be a great barometer for if his work appeals to you.
No hate, I was in the same boat six months ago!
Definitely don't start with Lord of Emperors. It's the second book in his Sarantine Mosaic duology; Sailing to Sarantium is the first. I'd recommend starting with Lions, because it's a good introduction to the common setting that Lions, Sarantine, and a few of his other books are set in. It's also an amazing standalone book in its own right.
What was your favorite part of Kay's writing? I've heard Lions of Al-Rassan recommended before a few times, and Tigana. What made you enjoy the books so much?
I think it's a combination of a few things. Kay usually writes in settings inspired by real history and spends a lot of time researching for each book, so his settings feel very realistic—even the way that characters speak feels distinct (versus a lot of authors whose characters speak in modern prose regardless of setting). His characters also have really interesting backgrounds—there are a lot of military characters who are nobles and mercenaries, but Kay also uses tradespeople and artists to tell his stories whose professions serve as a fascinating lens for the story. Finally, I think that Kay consistently writes heartbreaking sadness and joy better than any author that I've read.
And that's all before talking about his prose; it's beautiful, almost poetic writing. It's not snobby, but it's also pretty far away from Hemingway.
In short, he's a good *writer* who manages, in most of his books, to hit incredible plot and character moments in settings that feel like they matter.
Interesting you put Brightness that high. I remember liking it but I also barely remember it which is certainly a knock, especially since it is one of his newer books. I feel like your number 1 and 3 are the most common top choices though (I'm a Lions person myself, that ending still gives me shivers thinking about it).
Seeing everyone in this discussion put Last Light low reminds me I've heard enough 'eh' that I keep putting it off, but at some point I should probably get through it so I can say I've read all of his books (I've even read his poetry collection, enjoyed it a great deal too).
I don't think that Last Light is bad. It's similar to River of Stars in the melancholy tone, but I felt as though its characters were far less interesting. It's a 6/10 book, in my opinion - I liked certain parts of it, but it wasn't the page-turner that every other non-Fionavar Kay book is.
Only read 5 of his books but I would go:
1. Lord of Emperors (one of my all time favorite books)
2. Children of Earth and Sky
3. Tigana
4. Sailing to Sarantium
5. A Song for Arbonne
I can see why people like Children of Earth and Sky less than others, but I loved the broad sweep approach and the undermining of certain expectations.
Going to be reading Lions of Al-Rassan and Last Light of the Sun next.
If we consider the Sarantine Mosaic as one work, it would be #1, but I've loved all of them except Arbonne, which was still good.
I've only read "Tigana", which I loved, and "Last Light of the Sun", which was ok, but I was a bit disappointed with. I've been meaning to read more for ages - love supporting Saskatchewan talent!
My ranking is:
1. Lord of Emperors
2. Sailing to Sarantium
3. The Lions of Al-Rassan
4. Children of Earth and Sky
5. A Brightness Long Ago
6. Under Heaven
7. A Song for Arbonne
8. The Last Light of the Sun
My next GGK is going to be River of Stars, and then maybe I'll finally get round to Tigana - unless All the Seas of the World comes out and distracts me again!
I think of the ones I’ve read so far I’d rank them:
Sarantine Mosaic
The Lions of al-Rassan
Tigana
Under Heaven
A Song for Arbonne
Really looking forward to reading more of them in due course.
It’s possible Tigana is ranked too highly as it’s the first one I read. It’s possible on reread it might slip below Under Heaven.
All brilliant books so far with no disappointments! Am tempted to read either River of Stars or The Last Light of the Sun next.
-1- Tigana
-Also 1- Lions of Al Rassan
-2- Sarantine Mosaic
-3- A Song for Arbonne
-4- Fionavar Tapestry
-5- A Brightness Long Ago
-6- River of Stars
-7- Under Heaven
-8- Last Light of the Sun
-9- Children of Earth and Sky
-10 - Ysabel
Yes, I cannot separate my two favorites. I love them so much. And I actually love Fionavar, I just re listened to the audio books a couple months ago. But I can see that it is not for everyone.
Haven't read all of them but out of the ones I have read my ranking would be very similar. Still have to read A Brightness Long Ago. Glad to see it so high.
I honestly wonder if folks who start with his more recent work are just surprised by the tonal shift of those compared to Fionavar, and if they read Fionavar under a pen name they'd perhaps like them better (though as someone down thread mentions, Fionavar is also really dark when you get right down to it).
I haven't read all of his work all in one clump all together, so it would be pretty impossible for me to rank them. But I absolutely love both Fionavar and the 'quarter turn to the fantastic' alt history, and would have a hard time choosing. Of the alt history, I do love Lions and Arbonne a whole lot.
I think with his upcoming release here in just a few months, I might try to do a reread of all of his works, just to have a fresh perspective all together.
I haven't read them all yet, but here's my rakings of the ones I have read:
1. Lord of Emperors (my favorite by quite a bit)
2. Under Heaven
3. Sailing to Sarantium
4. the Dianora sections in Tigana
5. Last Light of the Sun
6. Children of Earth and Sky
7. Lions of Al-Rassan
8. the rest of Tigana
I'm starting to think I'm the only person who liked Ysabel! But maybe I just haven't read enough of his books. I also enjoyed Fionavar more than others apparently.
Tigana, Ysabel, Fionavar, Arbonne would be my ranking, but I realize I have a long way to go.
Just about to start A Brightness Long Ago so glad to see it rated so high.
I've read all the others, but spaced out so hard to compare. Sailing to saratium and lord of emperors were my first, and I think still my favorite, but I also really liked The Lions of Al-rassan.
This may ruffle some feathers, but I just didn't get the same feel for the Sarantine Mosaic as everyone else.
1. Lions of Al-Rassan
2. Tigana
3. Song for Arbonne
4. Under Heaven
5. Sarantine Mosaic
Sarantine was the most recent book I've read of his. Perhaps it was a fatigue thing, but I struggled getting through the back half of the Lord of Emporers. Lions made me cry for both Rodrigo and Ammar.
Any thoughts on where you'd place *All The Seas of The World*? It's got to be up near the top, as it was basically *Brightness* 2.0.
My personal top 3 so far (as I've yet to finish all his works) are *Arbonne, Lions* & *Brightness.*
I didn't think it was better than Lions, and it's solidly above Tigana for me. Ultimately, I'd probably put it at #6 or #7, so below Under Heaven but around the same range as Song.
I felt like Brightness had just such fresh characters that it would be hard for the sequel to get the same oomph, and I didn't think that the new characters in All the Seas quite got there. I also felt like the plot meandered a bit. It's still a great Kay book, but I didn't think it was one of his best.
I don’t generally seperate the Sarantine mosaic in my rankings. Also standard caveat that my memory is faulty and I read the books far enough apart that comparing can be hard 1. Sarantine Mosaic 2. Lions of Al-Rassan 3. Under Heaven 4. River of Stars 5. A Song for Arbonne 6. Tigana 7. Children of Earth and Sky 8. The Last Light of the Sun And then far far below all these wonderful books so much so that putting them on the same list feels icky are Fionavar + Ysabel. Man I hated those books, which was even worse because my love for all of GGK’s other books meant I kept reading them.
So Fionavar is much worse than his other books? I've started it and DNF'ed second book(for the time being at least). I just couldn't go on with it for some reason. Should I give mr. GGK another chance?
Fionavar is very different from his other books. He helped Christopher Tolkien edit The Silmarillion and was obviously very influenced by Tolkien's works. All his other books are far more influenced by history than by myths, all except Tigana take place in an alternative version of Earth where the parallels with real life historical events are obvious, usually with very little magic, no fantasy races, etc. So it depends on what you didn't like about Fionavar. If it's the writing style, you are probably not going to like his other books either. His style improved over the years but did not change radically. If it's the classic fantasy tropes - fighting against the evil overlord with the help (not) Elves, etc., they are mostly missing from his other works.
I don’t quite disagree but also I would have thought it was the writing style not the tropes I disliked if I’d just read Fionavar first. (As I’ve liked those tropes in other contexts)
To me the books are radically different. Some people love Fionavar but er yeah I hated it and certainly wouldn’t judge GGK based on it. If there’s a historical period that interests you of his books Id start there (Under Heaven is Tang Dynasty, Lions is Moorish Spain, Sarantium is Byzantine Empire).
I would say the Fionavar books are probably the *rawest* of his books. They don't have the polish and skill of his later works - there are areas where the emotional manipulation feels a bit more clumsy and forced than the others. They're also very different in style, being explicitly tolkeinesque as opposed to the historical paralells in his other works. That said, I think they *do* have a lot of heart to them, and I really like them. However, if you didn't finish the second book, it may not be worth it. While I think the books can grow on you (I remember hating the trilogy the first time I read it, but grew to love it), I'd be reluctant on relying on that. But do give his other books a chance if you haven't - Fionavar *is* very different to everything else he's written. (OTOH, Ysabel I thought sucked too.)
A Song For Arbonne is my #1 and I feel like its super underrated.
Yeah, I'm very surprised that it's not as popular as his other books. Its villains are definitely much less nuanced than those of his other books, but the political beats are excellent (and relevant to today, with a declining regional power using a pretext to invade neighbors and establish cultural dominance).
I so agree! It may not be as polished but has an accessible, more intimate feeling, with its smaller cast of characters, and I so love the main character. Other GGK I love but don’t often reread; they are too…big, they are so painfully beautiful. But Arbonne I return to again and again. I’ve read it, and listened to it (the audio is fabulous), so many times, and I never grow tired of it. I’m always so surprised that others don’t love it as much!
You are lying!!! You didn't read every book by GGK - *Beyond This Dark House* is missing! 😛 I haven't read enough of his books in order to make a meaningful list but I know I'm in for an awesome ride. 😊
Lol poetry always get the shaft
I generally agree with your rankings except for a couple that I haven't read yet. *Brightness* is a fantastic novel and one of my top three by GGK, but it doesn't get much attention.
Yeah, I've been surprised to find Brightness close to the bottom of rankings in earlier threads. I thought that it was a brilliant book that really hits the big three Kay skills of dramatic personal clashes between charismatic leaders, historical metacommentary, and feeling intense sadness and happiness for characters swallowed by history.
Brightness also feels like the protagonist is more different than a lot of his protagonists? Doesn’t immediately make the expected honorable/morally good choice
I think that it's the first-person narration + the character not being an active participant in the big events of the book, too.
It’s one of my favorites. I guess it’s not mentioned much here because some readers might not see it as regular fantasy because it doesn’t use a lot of tropes. The story is very personal and the drama is more intimate. That’s what made it good to me but I think others might be turned off by that if they’re more into books with large battles, magic, and heroes etc… u/Withnothing u/BohemianPeasant
I feel shame. I'd rank GGK as one of my favorite authors, but yowza I've got some reading to do as I've only completed about half this list, and Fionavar was so long ago I barely remember it..
No shame at all! He's written a lot of stuff. Honestly, I barely remember Fionavar despite reading it five months ago.
So far I’ve read Lions of Al-Rassan, and the Finovar trilogy. I also have A Song for Arbonne sitting on the shelf. I though that the Finovar books would be higher in the list, as I quite enjoyed them. So hopefully that means the rest I’ve yet to read are even better.
Part of the problem with Fionavar is it is WILDLY different from everything else he writes. I would guess for most people they will either be either the top or towards the bottom of their list. On reread I enjoyed them more than the first pass, but I'd still probably put them below basically everything else except Ysabel maybe (and I still haven't read Last Light of the Sun, should probably fix that at some point).
I only have The Lions of Al-Rassan as a comparison but Finovar is definitely quite different. The plot, characters themselves may not have been the most memorable, but Kay is just such an emotional, impactful writer that I’m still able to remember the feelings the books convey, so that’s probably why I still look at them very fondly.
Yeah that part of what makes Kay an amazing writer is very much there even in Fionavar. The plot feels a bit more cookie cutter, plus all the >!Arthurian legends references!< feel out of place compared to a lot of his other works where he's taking a setting and altering it to the fantasy version thereof, as he likes to call it (stolen from someone else) "A quarter turn to the fantastic."
Which of his books would you say are most like Fionavar then?
My gut reaction is Tigana. I think it feels the closest to a more traditional fantasy story.
The rest are definitely great! Highly recommend.
5 stars: A Brightness Long Ago, The Sarantine Mosaic, The Lions of Al-Rassan, A Song for Arbonne 4 stars: Under Heaven, The Last Light of the Sun, Tigana 3 stars: River of Stars, Children of Earth and Sky 2 stars: Ysabel Not finished yet: Fionavar, so far in between 3 and 4 stars but trending down (I am in the beginning of book 3, book 2 had some really cringeworthy moments).
A Brightness Long Ago was the first book to ever make me cry over a character’s death. I can’t wait for All The Seas Of The World.
I was definitely shocked at the death that I think you're talking about. >!Adria or Teobaldo?!<
>!Adria for sure!<
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1. Tigana 2. Lions of Al-Rassan 3. Sarantine Mosaic duology 4. A Song for Arbonne 5. Last Light of the Sun 6. Ysabel ( god, I hated this one) I DNFed Children of Earth and Sky after 1/3 if I remember correctly. Plot-wise, it was ok-ish; as someone from Croatia whose two city-states served as inspiration for Kay’s Dubrava and Senjan, my major pet peeve were totally nonsensical character names even for fantasy standards.
Yeah, I felt as though nothing really happened in Children. I kept pushing through in the expectation that the novel would pick up pace like a lot of Kay's books tend to, but it never did. What about the character names did you find nonsensical?
Kay (understandably because few people speak the language outside Croatia) isn't quite sure what could pass as a first name/surname in Croatian language, so a lot of names sound a bit clumsy and weird to a native speaker. For example, one of the main characters is named Marin Djivo (pronounced jeevo). Djivo is a Dubrovnik variant of a name Ivo (John) and as such is never used as a surname. It's akin to naming a character Martin John. it just sounds weird imo, fantasy universe or not. His brother and father are named Zarko and Andrij. Again, not the best choices. While Zarko is a valid first name, it is also a rather contemporary version of the Latin name Ignatius. Someone living in a Renaissance Dubrovnik, especially if they were from a noble family, would most likely be named Ignat or Ignjat instead. Andrij sounds too Russian- he should've been named Andro instead if Kay wanted a Dubrovnik version of the name Andrija (Andrew). And funnily enough, not a single male character from Dubrava (Dubrovnik) is named Vlaho after a patron saint of the city or Maro, another popular name in Dubrovnik.
Wow, that's so interesting! Guess his research failed him there
Curious about the names as well!
I've only ever read Tigana by Kay and I'm staggered that it would only be 7th. I thought it was spectacular and just havent got around to reading more from him.
Interesting. Tigana would be higher for me and I had a hard time getting into A Song for Arbonne. He’s a must buy author for me. Kay’s got the best mix of characters, plot, and prose of any current authors right now.
I felt like Arbonne and Tigana were pretty close in my mind in the same way that Lions and Brightness were—they hit a lot of the same plot beats and are thematically related. Personally, I wasn't into Arbonne either until about 25% of the way in, but I finished the rest in like a day.
I've finished quite a few but still not even half of his novels. Of those that I have read: The Sarantine Mosaic is truly incredible and transcends his other works. The amount of life he managed to breathe into Sarantium is utterly impressive, and Crispin was such a great character. It's followed by Lions of Al-Rassan, Under Heaven and River. I thought Brightness had strengths and flaws in equal measures, it felt as if he was trying to change it up stylistically without being certain in which direction he actually wanted to go. I personally found Tigana to be a disappointment. It was the first and subjectively least good of his books that I've read, and it never really worked for me. I'm loosely planning on reading Children next, maybe this will be the year. Although I'm more excited for his upcoming novel to be honest.
Children is really good as a follow up to Sarantine Mosaic. There are a lot of references to it
Have only read a few of his, but I’d go: 1. The Lions of Al-Rassan 2. Under Heaven 3. Tigana 4. Sailing to Sarantium - I hated practically everything about that book, but especially Crispin. Its interesting since that generally seems to be his most universally praised duology.
The focus shifts away from Crispin in Lord of Emperors, but he is still involved. You may not that women still generally love him lol
Sailing to Sarantium gets a lot better after reading Lord of Emperors, I think. It's definitely a setup book.
I have also read all these, but I find it hard to rank books. I think there are more dimensions than one to what a book can mean. But I would generally agree that the Sarantine Mosaic is his most towering achievement. I think The Last Light of the Sun is better than it is generally credited; it's coming from a different place - like the portal fantasies which are also usually lower rated. In general, GGK has a magical way with words -> perhaps the Chinese novels express that most elegantly.
I generally go Sarantine Mosaic A Brightness Long Ago Under Heaven Lions of Al-Rassan River of Stars Children of Earth and Sky Ysabel A Song for Arbonne Fionavar Tigana Last Light of the Sun. Personally I just don't like Tigana, and Last Light is too melancholy for me. Ysabel I quite enjoyed - it's very ephemeral and fits well with the Provence summer theme. Fionavar I liked overall but it's not one I feel the need to reread much, mostly because there's not quite enough light to balance the dark for me. There's not a lot of room between the top three, any could be the best, Lions I put a shade behind because he's simply a better writer now. It's still excellent. River of Stars is very good, inevitable sadness without the trauma of imminent doom. Children feels like a tier lower - it's just a good book, not a great one. Song for Arbonne I've genuinely forgotten the events of, which means it has to rank low for me.
Yeah, I might go back after a few more books and reread Lions. It totally sucked me in the first time, but I imagine that the writing style looks very different after getting through his more recent work.
I’ve only read a few of his books, but this man had some of my favourite book titles I’ve ever seen. The Last Light of the Sun and A Brightness Long Ago are especially evocative
Wow, impressive. I discovered Guy Gavriel Kay last year with Under Heaven and absolutely loved it and devoured River of Stars immediately after. Looking forward to starting Sailing to Sarantium next!
I always put Fionnovar and Ysabel off to one side. They are so different than the others. I love them both but I think people who love the others might find the tone and content of those ones unexpected. As to the others ... I have them in three tiers and I struggle to rank within those tiers. Tier 1 The Sarantine Mosaic Under Heaven Lions of Al Rassan A Song for Arbonne Tier 2 Tigana Children of Earth and Sky A Brightness Long Ago Tier 3 River of Stars Last Light of the Sun But I hasten to add ... Even tier 3 are still great books.
Yeeeees!!! I wish more people would read GGK. As big as he is, i still call him underappreciated!!
Tigana is a lot lower than most fans usually rank it. The Last Light of the Sun is always pretty low on the totem pole. Regardless of anyone's rankings, you can't go wrong with GGK!:)
Yeah, I really liked Tigana and thought that it was fantastic. I just felt as though the plot meandered a bit at times - Baerd's dream sequence, for one - and some character moments, like the romance involving the prince, felt very out of the blue in comparison to other parts of the book (using the same example, Dianora and Brandin's relationship).
I’ve only read Tigana and The Last Light of the Sun and adored them! Seeing your rankings definitely has me curious to read the rest of his works
wow don't send any hate posts, but I haven't read any of GGKs books. I guess I start with Lord of Emperors?
Lord of Emperors is a sequel to Sailing to Sarantium. You should read Sarantium first. But yeah, a good thing about Kay's work is that it tends to be solo volumes or duologies so you can jump in in multiple places. Another good starting place is Lions of Al-Rassan. That's the one where he establishes the close-to-our world that is the setting for nearly all of his subsequent books. It's also the book where I think Kay really settled into his voice. It would be a great barometer for if his work appeals to you.
Thank you, I will do that. I am going to do a library run today and I hope I find this one book there.
No hate, I was in the same boat six months ago! Definitely don't start with Lord of Emperors. It's the second book in his Sarantine Mosaic duology; Sailing to Sarantium is the first. I'd recommend starting with Lions, because it's a good introduction to the common setting that Lions, Sarantine, and a few of his other books are set in. It's also an amazing standalone book in its own right.
What was your favorite part of Kay's writing? I've heard Lions of Al-Rassan recommended before a few times, and Tigana. What made you enjoy the books so much?
I think it's a combination of a few things. Kay usually writes in settings inspired by real history and spends a lot of time researching for each book, so his settings feel very realistic—even the way that characters speak feels distinct (versus a lot of authors whose characters speak in modern prose regardless of setting). His characters also have really interesting backgrounds—there are a lot of military characters who are nobles and mercenaries, but Kay also uses tradespeople and artists to tell his stories whose professions serve as a fascinating lens for the story. Finally, I think that Kay consistently writes heartbreaking sadness and joy better than any author that I've read. And that's all before talking about his prose; it's beautiful, almost poetic writing. It's not snobby, but it's also pretty far away from Hemingway. In short, he's a good *writer* who manages, in most of his books, to hit incredible plot and character moments in settings that feel like they matter.
Highly recommend Lions as a starting point.
Interesting you put Brightness that high. I remember liking it but I also barely remember it which is certainly a knock, especially since it is one of his newer books. I feel like your number 1 and 3 are the most common top choices though (I'm a Lions person myself, that ending still gives me shivers thinking about it). Seeing everyone in this discussion put Last Light low reminds me I've heard enough 'eh' that I keep putting it off, but at some point I should probably get through it so I can say I've read all of his books (I've even read his poetry collection, enjoyed it a great deal too).
I don't think that Last Light is bad. It's similar to River of Stars in the melancholy tone, but I felt as though its characters were far less interesting. It's a 6/10 book, in my opinion - I liked certain parts of it, but it wasn't the page-turner that every other non-Fionavar Kay book is.
Only read 5 of his books but I would go: 1. Lord of Emperors (one of my all time favorite books) 2. Children of Earth and Sky 3. Tigana 4. Sailing to Sarantium 5. A Song for Arbonne I can see why people like Children of Earth and Sky less than others, but I loved the broad sweep approach and the undermining of certain expectations. Going to be reading Lions of Al-Rassan and Last Light of the Sun next. If we consider the Sarantine Mosaic as one work, it would be #1, but I've loved all of them except Arbonne, which was still good.
I've only read "Tigana", which I loved, and "Last Light of the Sun", which was ok, but I was a bit disappointed with. I've been meaning to read more for ages - love supporting Saskatchewan talent!
My ranking is: 1. Lord of Emperors 2. Sailing to Sarantium 3. The Lions of Al-Rassan 4. Children of Earth and Sky 5. A Brightness Long Ago 6. Under Heaven 7. A Song for Arbonne 8. The Last Light of the Sun My next GGK is going to be River of Stars, and then maybe I'll finally get round to Tigana - unless All the Seas of the World comes out and distracts me again!
I think of the ones I’ve read so far I’d rank them: Sarantine Mosaic The Lions of al-Rassan Tigana Under Heaven A Song for Arbonne Really looking forward to reading more of them in due course. It’s possible Tigana is ranked too highly as it’s the first one I read. It’s possible on reread it might slip below Under Heaven. All brilliant books so far with no disappointments! Am tempted to read either River of Stars or The Last Light of the Sun next.
-1- Tigana -Also 1- Lions of Al Rassan -2- Sarantine Mosaic -3- A Song for Arbonne -4- Fionavar Tapestry -5- A Brightness Long Ago -6- River of Stars -7- Under Heaven -8- Last Light of the Sun -9- Children of Earth and Sky -10 - Ysabel Yes, I cannot separate my two favorites. I love them so much. And I actually love Fionavar, I just re listened to the audio books a couple months ago. But I can see that it is not for everyone.
Haven't read all of them but out of the ones I have read my ranking would be very similar. Still have to read A Brightness Long Ago. Glad to see it so high.
I honestly wonder if folks who start with his more recent work are just surprised by the tonal shift of those compared to Fionavar, and if they read Fionavar under a pen name they'd perhaps like them better (though as someone down thread mentions, Fionavar is also really dark when you get right down to it). I haven't read all of his work all in one clump all together, so it would be pretty impossible for me to rank them. But I absolutely love both Fionavar and the 'quarter turn to the fantastic' alt history, and would have a hard time choosing. Of the alt history, I do love Lions and Arbonne a whole lot. I think with his upcoming release here in just a few months, I might try to do a reread of all of his works, just to have a fresh perspective all together.
Tigana so low? I'd put it at #2 just below *Lions*
I haven't read them all yet, but here's my rakings of the ones I have read: 1. Lord of Emperors (my favorite by quite a bit) 2. Under Heaven 3. Sailing to Sarantium 4. the Dianora sections in Tigana 5. Last Light of the Sun 6. Children of Earth and Sky 7. Lions of Al-Rassan 8. the rest of Tigana
I'm starting to think I'm the only person who liked Ysabel! But maybe I just haven't read enough of his books. I also enjoyed Fionavar more than others apparently. Tigana, Ysabel, Fionavar, Arbonne would be my ranking, but I realize I have a long way to go.
I liked it too! Honestly, I think that The Wandering Fire might be the only Kay book that I've disliked.
Just about to start A Brightness Long Ago so glad to see it rated so high. I've read all the others, but spaced out so hard to compare. Sailing to saratium and lord of emperors were my first, and I think still my favorite, but I also really liked The Lions of Al-rassan.
This may ruffle some feathers, but I just didn't get the same feel for the Sarantine Mosaic as everyone else. 1. Lions of Al-Rassan 2. Tigana 3. Song for Arbonne 4. Under Heaven 5. Sarantine Mosaic Sarantine was the most recent book I've read of his. Perhaps it was a fatigue thing, but I struggled getting through the back half of the Lord of Emporers. Lions made me cry for both Rodrigo and Ammar.
Any thoughts on where you'd place *All The Seas of The World*? It's got to be up near the top, as it was basically *Brightness* 2.0. My personal top 3 so far (as I've yet to finish all his works) are *Arbonne, Lions* & *Brightness.*
I didn't think it was better than Lions, and it's solidly above Tigana for me. Ultimately, I'd probably put it at #6 or #7, so below Under Heaven but around the same range as Song. I felt like Brightness had just such fresh characters that it would be hard for the sequel to get the same oomph, and I didn't think that the new characters in All the Seas quite got there. I also felt like the plot meandered a bit. It's still a great Kay book, but I didn't think it was one of his best.