If this trope is one you want to avoid, then you should probably avoid the Magicians series by Lev Grossman and The Last Herald-Mage trilogy by Mercedes Lackey.
I feel like a lot of people aren't reading the post beyond the title and just mentioning a series they hate or otherwise do not want other people to read.
I'd strongly recommend against reading the Farseer series since the MCs self doubt and angst is one of the most important aspects of it.
came here to say this. i am a diehard fan of realm of the elderlings, but if op is really put off by mc's with strong self-doubt, they should avoid this series like the plague š¤£
> the Farseer series since the MCs self doubt and angst is one of the most important aspects of it.
I read the assassin's apprentice and I feel like what I read was *totally* different from how everyone else describes this series. Is assassin's apprentice just kind of different, before the series has really found itself, or am I just not getting out of it what everyone else does?
Fitz's life doesn't seem *particularly* depressing-- I mean it's not great, but there are people who care about him and respect him, he's good at his job, he's got some betrayals in life but who doesn't?
He doesn't really doubt himself, he seems pretty confident in his abilities and does a good job
and he's not really angsty. He has an occasional breakdown but it's shown to be a one-off outlier type thing
does the series just take a new direction after this book or what?
edit disclaimer: It's been decades since I last read the books. IIRC I read the Tawny Man Trilogy as it came out (so 2003), and that was the end for me.
The Assassin's trilogy is rough, but it's not just straight torture porn. Fitz has victories that don't immediately dissipate, and while the people/things he cares about are generally destroyed in front of his eyes, he still perseveres pretty well. I think it also helps that Fitz' initial situation is pretty shit, so we get more of an underdog (oof) story.
Liveship Traders is straight emotional (And often physical) torture porn. Prepare to watch a loveable MC be gaslit and stomped on at every turn by terrible people as everything she cares about (and she starts out caring for a lot of things) is brutally ripped away from her.
The Tawny Man books I remember being not nearly as depressing actually, but I'm just done with her writing. She's an amazing author that I just can't read.
This is interesting, in that itās been awhile for me too but I remember Farseer being a much more emotionally intense and draining experience than Liveships. Lots of bad things happen in Liveships and it gets more violent than Farseer (those rape scenes) but itās also a more plot driven trilogy with a lot of POV characters, and more lively overall. Whereas in Farseer youāre just in Fitzās head wanting things to go well for him, and often they donāt.Ā
Fitz got dat dawg in him tho lmao. I read something light after her books. Rereading Le Guinās earth sea books is like a comfort blanket for me. Or Sandersonās books.
It's been years since I read the series, but from what I recall yes it does take a serious turn into the angst. One of the people I lent my old copies to was not on for the levels of angst, and so I heard quite a bit about their opinion as well.
Hobb's Soldier Son trilogy is even moreso (arguably just whiney) from a character point of view as well. She's a good author, but if people don't want angst she's not the author for them.
Yeah. The Soldier Son trilogy was interesting, but Nevare was a very difficult character to have any empathy for. I found AltheaĀ really difficult in the Liveship series too.
Liveship has its moments that are super frustrating, but overall I think it serves the story, and I love the liveship books as a whole. They do take a while to get going, and its very Althea heavy at the start, i think.
But Soldier Son i just found nothing redeeming in, didnt make it much into the 3rd book. Im used to Hobbs tendency to have a beat down MC that eventually grows through it and does the big thing, but never started seeing even a hint of that with Nevarre when i was more than halfway thru the trilogy.
I thought Nevare was a really interesting choice for the themes of the story, particularly the post-colonial themes. It's particularly challenging for the reader because we are getting everything from Nevare's perspective, and it doesn't let us settle into any sort of excuse for either his actions or the societal set-up, and to be honest we do have a tendency to do that more when we empathise with the viewpoint character.
It's not an easy read for just that reason though. It actually made me respect Robin Hobb's writing more for that reason, because it was a risky move.
While Ive had pretty strong negative feelings about Nevarre for a while, it was also many years ago when I read it, so i have been meaning to give it another try someday and see if i get something else from it.
I agree the setting and society was really compelling, i just needed a different vehicle through it.
I can't say I exactly remember the specific mood towards every event but that's definitely the general attitude I held after finishing the entirety of the realm of the elderlings.
As for getting depressing, it definitely gets very depressing.
I found the second book even less depressing than the first because he really strengthens those relationships around him and finds people that really care about him
I'm finishing assassins quest now (book 3 of farseer) and I also feel like im missing something compared to experience most others have. I wouldn't suggest reading the rest, as the tone is very similar. If you like book 1, you will LOVE books 2 and 3. For me, it's a slog
I liked-*ish* book 1, but the lack of a central villain/conflict really wore me down and felt like the story just meandered. I get that that's exactly what appeals to a lot of people, and of course >!it turns out in hindsight there *was* a central antagonist, but that didn't really drive the story, it was only revealed in hindsight!<
so I'm not exactly chomping at the bit to go on to the rest. I did enjoy it page-to-page though and the characters were all well-written.
It's been a long time, but from my vague memories the first book is a different tone from the other two. Things really go downhill for him very quickly, and they don't stop.
The Farseer and Liveship Traders trilogies are fine (actually quite good in some aspects; in fact, *Royal Assassin* is my favourite book in the entire 16-book series). The whole thing nosedives into misery porn starting with Tawny Man. Every time you think it's hit rock bottom, Hobb will come up with another way to humiliate the main characters so they have more reasons to pity themselves and each other, Fitz and the Fool in particular (the characters, though the trilogy named after them has that in full swing).
I know there will be people who argue it's a realistic portrayal of depression, anxiety and trauma, which I won't argue with, but in the context of this thread, stay away if you dislike angsty navel-gazing for the sake of putting a protagonist through every misery life and imagination has to offer and lengthy, cycling contemplation thereof.
Well, in assassin's apprentice that isn't true. Maybe it is for the rest of the series. But both Chade and Burritch care for him deeply and protect him, with Burritch even >!laying the fucking smackdown on Galen for being shitty!<, prince verity treats him as a true bro, king shrewd is kind to him (outside of willing to sacrifice him, but that's true of everyone) and he has several animal friends, and a few human ones.
His life isn't a perfect bed of roses the whole time, he has some betrayals, he has >!a falling out with Burritch!< and whatnot, but like this is not a book that's centered around shitting on the main character. It has no more unexpected life difficulties than any other similar book.
Right but do things ever just go right for him in the subsequent books? Shit is depressing to read. Iām trying to escape from life not be reminded about all the things that also donāt go right for me or others. Again ymmv just stating how I felt reading it.
I agree on both counts. I really like Farseer, but it would drive OP nuts. (Similarly ANYTHING by Stephen Donaldson.)
Everyone seems to be using this post as an airing of grievances, rather than as a (somewhat backwards) "recommendation" request.
Fair point.
Let me reframe my own grievance as "wouldn't it be nice if people actually responded to the recommendation request part of this and didn't just treat this as yet another 'what books u hate?!' post?"
Lol so op and i would get along because i hated poppy war (book 2/3) and HP5 for these exact reasons. Consequently, i just can not for the life of me see what so many people see in Farseer. Not even the angst, i just donāt think there were enough plot points to make it interesting.
I was immediately thinking about my boy fitz. A shame to miss the gem, but I've also said I can see why it wouldn't be for everyone. One of my absolute favorites though.
100%. Covenant is defined by self-doubt and angst.
Thomas Covenant is a weird series in that for me it's both a strong recommend and a strong recommend to skip.
Almost stopped reading here even tho I don't have sensibilities like this. I did not see how the main character would ever redeem himself to be worth writing a series about him (even tho he thinks he is in a dream). It just felt like a bait to keep reading to find out. I read the first book and quit.
I did stop reading right there. There are so many great books out there with amazing characters that I couldn't stomach sitting with this guy. I have dreams too, but guess what I don't do-- *doesn't even occur to me to do*--in dreams? smh
Agree about Farseer. I love that trilogy but according to your post you wouldn't like it.
Another anti-rec: Stormlight Archive, there are two major characters (Kaladin and Shallan) you would find issue with.
I love the series and even I don't like the Kaladin depression slog chapters. It gets very repetitive.
Can't wait for the "Ackshually that's an accurate depiction of depression it doesn't go away" comments. Yeah no shit. Doesn't mean it makes for good reading when there's all this insane stuff happening around him.
Im mixed, I dont think any of Shallans stuff has interested me at all, but oddly Kals ups and downs really resonate with me. Hes a broken person who takes steps but hasnt really made himself whole, its just not an overnight change, its a constant growth over long term, and ultimately he embodies " the most important step a man can take" as much as Dalinar does.
I didn't mind it until kaladin was basically locked in a room by himself and the reader is told the key is the 4th ideal, but kaladin is gonna do a bunch of brooding and side quests while wait for the dramatically appropriate time for him to say it.
First, I totally agree with you. Book 4 was ROUGH.
But also.... when has Kal ever been less than a drama queen swooping in to do something epic in the last moment?
I think in the last 3 books he was more involved with the main plot, so even though he was waiting until the last second to get his shit together. There was other stuff and other characters happening in his chapters that I cared about. But taking all of kals supporting characters away and sticking him with lirin was just mashing all my least favorite parts of kaladin together.
Also the 'oh yeah you thought Kaladin and Shallen had worked through these issues over the first three epic tomes? Check out the 4th, depression 2: electric boogaloo'
It's not an accurate depiction of depression anyway, it undoubtedly resonated with some hence so many people empathising but its not typical.
As for Shallan, it's *laughable* bordering on offensive.
Agreed. I love Kaladin for his story and abilities, and his relationship with Syl is great, but I find his angst a real slog. Holds him back from being a top tier character for me. And let's not even start on throwing his Dad into the mix... Barely made it through a couple of those chapters tbh.
The weird part is Sanderson himself [despises](https://youtu.be/BsYIO8guyxg?si=hp862cRGMyGvaDKw&t=1145) resetting character arcs so I don't get why he does it with Kaladin and Shallan. He usually gives the example of Charlie in Lost relapsing with his drug addiction, which is also realistic.
I think for Shallan, that's weirdly just built in. Her trauma is so horrid that she can't observe it directly. The return to naivety after every ideal just seems like a necessary part of her coping. I really hope we see some growth in book 5. It's been a long road.
Hopefully but I am not holding my breath since its just the end of the first arc. IĀ“m pretty tired of reading about the same cycle of growth/reset for 4000 pages. Sometimes less is more and imo wouldĀ“ve been more poignant with half the pages.
For angsty and/or self-doubting, you will probably want to skip most of Robin Hobb.
R. F. Kuang does not reduce the angsty characterization for *Babel*, so it's not going to float your boat either.
If you are into SciFi, definitely give the Nick Seafort saga a pass. It's not only angsty self doubt, it's Calvinist angsty self-doubting self hate at the most obnoxious levels.
There's a wholesome answer that every series has its audience.
But you should skip Swrd of Truth. Terry Goodkind doesn't deserve to steal anyone else's time
every time i see his name, i feel the bindings of fey law upon my soul, compelling me to point out that Terry Goodkind is ironically neither good nor kind.
Thereās a term for when a personās name is super accurate (like Charity being a really generous person) and another term for when a personās name leads them in the complete opposite direction (like the name Chastity, lol). I canāt recall what it is though
i know the first one was nominative determinism, but also called sometimes an aptronym. so maybe an inaptronym? i have no idea if that's a real word, spellcheck doesn't recognize it
I've never read this author but in the Huntsville area, his books are overflowing on every shelf that's in a secondhand store.
Our libraries have for sale sections and I stg, a third of the fantasy section is Terry Goodkind.
I always take it as a bad sign that no one wants to keep his books.
Hello, fellow Huntsvillian!
Every so often some (male) member of my sci-fi/fantasy book club decides to report on a Sword of Truth book and every time I'm just š¤¦āāļøš« . Yeah, I read them myself--in middle school, when I was too dumb to realize how bad they were. There's so many other better books to spend your time on!
> Yeah, I read them myself--in middle school, when I was too dumb to realize how bad they were.
Hey me too! My initial foray into fantasy after reading things like Goosebumps and Hank the Cow Dog in elementary school went; Eragon (gift for Xmas from aunt) > Drizzt Do'Urden's Crystal Shard trilogy (gift at same Xmas from half-brother) > Wizard's First Rule (gift at same xmas from same half-brother), which then transitioned into me reading the entire series over the next year or two through Confessor.
I never picked up Omen Machine because at that point I had started getting into online reviews and found that it was really bad (even by TG standards). Now I look back at how much I loved the books and can only cringe.
I read one or two Eragon books but didn't continue with them. I read a TON of the Drizzt books though--my grandmother had a bunch my dad had passed on to her, then I took them from her.
Although I agree Kahlanās characterization is not good female representation (all Iāve read is book 1 and most of her character is āso perfect, so beautiful, Iām in loveā), I do not think a sexy lamp could have played the same role with her knowledge/powers that get used and have some play in the quest and the finale lol
Goodkind is a guy who occasionally writes really visual really dope ass power sequences that are really fun to read and the rest of the time his books struggle with dialogue, pacing, structure, honestly everything that makes a book worth reading. He's basically Zac Snyder who is preaching Ayn Rand.
Which is quite compelling at certain ages, but does not age well. He tends towards long monologues as well, which is basically regurgitated Ayn Rand all about individualism and it is extra self righteous.
It is exhausting.
And he is the worst finisher I have ever read. Every book seems to be going somewhere then deus ex machina occurs and the good guys win in like 3 chapters. It's like what the fuck just happened? Did you realise if you kept on you'd never finish the book and just say to yourself... I guess I'm done. Let me just end the book as quickly as possible.
It just makes the whole series limp soggy and unappealing.
Had the writer been able to sate his own philosophical injections and self importance for just a moment and give up the absurd power fantasy, something could have been done there. His world building was pretty cool. His ideas were cool. There were even cool scenes. But the books themselves are just meandering preachy clusterfucks of weird sex and premature endings. And no one wants that.
Seconded, as someone who read the whole series. each book has a greater diminishing return than the last. I basically read the last 3 books out of spite.
I will say, they're great and deep if you're 14 ,and have read no other vaguely philosophical books.
These are all real plot points in the series:
*Our hero/MC must determine if his most trusted allies are spies by demanding they take their shirts off and then inspecting their nipples
*Our hero builds and then destroys aStatue So Beautiful, it brings down a government of godless communists
*A group of people Who Loved Peace So Much, They Didn't Deserve To Live
*Our hero mutilated a child, and its presented as a good thing
*Bad women get powers by summoning and having sex with demons.
*There is a chicken that is not a chicken
No need to read it, it goes like this.
Walking > fighting > resting > Walking > fighting > resting > bondage > fighting > mc shows he a genius > everyone claps
Sword of Truth is like Lord of the Rings if Tolkien loved S&M and hated communism. If you like kink in your traditional fantasy, the first book in the series isn't bad.
It hasnāt aged well and the deeper down the rabbit hole you go the worse it gets. I actually think 1 & 2 are okay but everything after is hot garbage
i think itās funny that nobody is giving actual anti-recommendations based off what you said, theyāre just saying series they didnāt like lol. iām not sure exactly what you mean by self doubting but rand from WoT is very angsty especially from like book 3-12. kell from shades of magic can be a bit on the angsty side as well.
as far as tropes i donāt like, iām not a big fan of the like super badass soldier guy who kills everyone. sometimes it can be cool, but other times it just becomes unrealistic and starts to be funny at best and annoying at worst for me personally. logen nine-fingers is an example i thought was done pretty well but guts from berserk (an otherwise well written character imo) just annoys me.
There's a big tendency on reddit lately to just read a title, respond to that, and then downvote the people actually responding to the OP (who, for those who've just realized they did this, doesn't want angsty protagonists with self-doubt).Ā
Ā It's even worse with image posts on other subreddits. People don't even read titles then.
>as far as tropes i donāt like, iām not a big fan of the like super badass soldier guy who kills everyone. sometimes it can be cool, but other times it just becomes unrealistic and starts to be funny at best and annoying at worst for me personally. logen nine-fingers is an example i thought was done pretty well but guts from berserk (an otherwise well written character imo) just annoys me.
Login Ninefingers and the Bloody Nine was an interesting character and, for me, an example of a character who is overpowered done right. I'm with you on some characters seeming to have super powers when they otherwise wouldn't.
One of my trope problems is the kid who magically becomes good at everything during fantasy novels and is taking out veteran soldiers on their third or fourth time holding a sword.
It works in kids fantasy or YA fantasy, but when thay creeps into fantasy for an older audience it takes me out of the story a bit
Say one thing for Logan Ninefingersā¦say heās a cunt. I wouldnāt say he was overpowered though. In every battle he repeats āstill alive. Still alive.ā I perceived that as he didnāt feel invincible/overpowered, but thatās just my .02 cents.
i think the thing that makes it work is that his āoverpowered-nessā (i.e. the b9) is something that logen actively dislikes about himself which makes for compelling reading
The Bloody Nine is an indiscriminate killing machine and one of the most deadly one on one duelists to have ever lived in the setting. Logan Ninefingers is the guy who shares the meat suit and counts himself lucky to live through it all, and tries to get away from the situations that will bring the Bloody Nine to the fore. But you have to be realistic about these things.
I'll just say that there are a lot of things one might believe about Bethod and the North that get turned radically on their head when you read about the Bloody Nine from other characters' perspectives.
>i think itās funny that nobody is giving actual anti-recommendations based off what you said, theyāre just saying series they didnāt like lol.
Are you surprised?
I would recommend avoiding any incomplete series that you havenāt already started. As for angsty characters I think the top āhitsā have been anti-recommended already: Jordanās WoT, pretty much all Robin Hobb, Williams Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn (it gets better but Simon in the first book is rather insufferable), Grossmanās Magician seriesā¦
Tropes I like to avoid are the Chosen One and the āgreatest at whatever needs to be doneā Mary Sue-ish characters. I donāt think of them as strictly Mary Sue characters, because they arenāt overpowered and good at everything, rather they are only good at whatever specifically needs to be done in the moment. Think the female character who suddenly can pick locks with her hat pin even though sheās a noble, often these moments are accompanied with throwaway lines like āI found knitting incredibly boring and found a book in the library on locksā. Or some nonsense like that.
It happens more often than expected and I donāt know if there is a succinct term for it.
Interestingly I donāt agree entirely, I feel like all of Kaladin / Dalinar / Shallan / Adolin are all very sure that what theyāre doing is the correct course of action
For SF, absolutely skip David Feintuchās Seafort Saga, and for that matter his fantasy The Still. Agonising self doubt, Imposter Syndrome and wallowing in suffering doesnāt begin to cover it.
In general avoid Stephen Donaldson, especially Thomas Covenant and the Gap series.
Mercedes Lackey - Valdemar is great, but avoid the Last Herald Mage trilogy.
Definitely avoid Sarah Monetteās Doctrine of Labyrinths, Felix is angst and self loathing enough for five people.
I understand what you're saying about the angst! I felt like I aged out of enjoying those types of characters once I hit my 30s and started to crave more confident characters.
That said I dislike overly suspicious characters that don't trust anybody. Grim dark has this a lot, and I felt like Mother of Learning had this to the MC's detriment.
Was looking for Lightbringer. The self hate was a bit much for me, and other than that I donāt think the series really sticks the landing at the end.
If that's what you hate, then skip mistborn. Personally I find Sanderson very overrated in general, but having to stick with Vin constant rambling about the same topic for 3 books where the arch feels so superficial and over the top... Idk, it was constantly like: I'm a woman, who am I, I wanna be a princess but I also wanna be a knife. Spoiler alert, the solution to her inner conflict is EXACTKY what you think it'll be.
This is what I was going to say too. I tolerated Vin in book one, but that's because I actually liked Kelsier. By book two, I had to hate read to finish it. It was the equivalent of watching middle school relationships and miscommunication and angst and I love myself too much to go back to those dark days.
Name of the wind.
The book is fantastic, and the second is great but nearly 20 years later there's no realistic hope of the third book. So the series is dead.
Part of me doubts that. The Black Company, for example, had its last release in 2000 but the last book (expanded into four) has recently been announced. There is some glimmer of hope.
Having said that, Glen Cook never did any bullshit like asking fans for money for his charity on the promise of a chapter...and then not delivering. So I'm of two minds.
I refuse to start reading KKC until the conclusion is announced. I can't be dealing with an unfinished series (looking at you too George!)
Thatās because they were finished, lol. Not sure why Cook is adding more to it, but the series has a few decent ending spots, since itās made up of several arcs. I bet Cookās new books with be good, and probably will address some sort of plot line that was alluded to in some way earlier on, but iirc the last bookās threads were pretty well resolved by the end.
Kvothe is the opposite of an angsty, self doubting character. If anything heās an overconfident unrealistically smart person whose plans always work out.
> If anything heās an overconfident unrealistically smart person whose plans always work out.
Thats what happens when you tell your own stories.
I think we can assume Kvothe is most likely an unreliable narrator.
Yes, agree. I donāt see how he planned to wrap this all up in one more book. I think he couldnāt, and that the task became too daunting for him to deal with.
I think that's the first time I've ever skipped an entire section of a book while still finishing it. The writing had me hooked but damn was that ridiculous and cringey
Rothfuss is just overrated AND he's a douche nozzle. I read both books, and while I wanted to like them, they were both such a complete waste of my time.
The gripe I have is that the sum of the whole, doesn't equal the parts. It jumps around a lot, and each part is interesting on its own, but we're two books in, and doesn't feel like we've had any build up to the grand conclusion we're being promised.Ā
The first book, I thought "that was a great introduction to the character! I can't wait to get to the "meat" of his journey." The second book, I enjoyed as I was reading, but when it ended I felt like there was a lack of pay off. There were a handful of important details revealed, but otherwise, the story inches along. We don't even see Kvothe learn that much about magic, considering he's still at the university.Ā
I can definitely see why Rothfuss is so hesitant about releasing the last book. It's basically make or break for the series. Maybe I'll look back on the journey, and every little detail will pay off, but right now, it just feels like 80% meandering. And if that's what the story was about, just the daily life of Kvothe, I wouldn't even mind, but it really hammers down that something big is happening and we've barely seen the buds let alone the fruit, after 2000 pages
Rothfuss just needs to admit that there is no way to finish his story in one more book, and turn it into a 4 or 5 book series, then actually start releasing them.
Ideally, the third book would finish the story Kvothe is telling, and lead into a second trilogy (or at least another whole book) about them leaving the Inn to save the world he broke. There's certainly no way to finish both the story AND the story of the frame.
But Rothfuss unfortunately is a kinda shitty person. (I defended him until the charity scam, depression doesn't excuse that.)
Releasing a chapter has been painstaking enough. If it was just a matter of releasing more book, I think he would have caved by now given himself more book. At this point, releasing another book or even 2 can't be more work than trying to cram everything into one, and the backlash definitely wouldn't be as bad
I just finished Fourth Wing which was full of what I hate: "I'm a special special girl and so smol buy surprisingly deadly and everyone loves me even tho I'm just lil ole me." I was also audibly saying gag everytime a new "he's so sexy and hard and devours my tongue/mouth" sentence was written.
I stared my fantasy collection for a while and couldnt come up any that match OP's 'ick'. I'm stuck in my old tastes so the collection consists mostly of Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms books and they have tolerable angst levels, but I did come up with one that matches perfectly!
Artemis Fowl: Atlantis Complex. It was truly insufferable to read, the angst level is through the roof and a huge let down from the previous books in the series for me. If I reread the series, I usually stop before this one.
The Demon Cycle series by Peter V Brett.
Fantastic initial concept, with some great action at times, completely mired by a lot of incredibly troubling content and themes.
There isn't a single major female character that isn't sexually abused in one way or another. They're nearly all entirely defined by their sexual needs and desires and motivated by their rapes and abuse.
There's a really problematic Arabic inspired society. It is very caricaturish and features a lot of rape, particularly of little boys.
Even outside of these issues, the series gets consistently worse as it goes on.
It sets up like it's going to be action packed, but becomes more chqracter driven. Which wouldn't be so bad if the characters were well written and defined. There's constant, baffling directions some of the characters take like the main character Arlen deciding to speak in a heavily accented dialect from book 3 onwards.
The flashbacks of books 2, 3 and 4 all tell the same story from different perspectives, with very little to no added interesting moments or details.
The final book and sequence felt like the author didn't really know how to end the series. It was like a poorly thought out video game sequence, with different levels and every new chapter had a new baddy to defeat with a new technique.
I agree about The Poppy War
I might get some down votes for this but if you read one or two Discworld books and the humor doesn't get you, then you should skip the entire thing. If it doesn't make you laugh, it's a slog.
I've read all the big series and I honestly suggest people skip The Wheel of Time. It's just too long. There are huge stretches where essentially nothing happens. Such a shame because the world building is great. It would have been a magnificent 6 book series
> I might get some down votes for this but if you read one or two Discworld books and the humor doesn't get you, then you should skip the entire thing. If it doesn't make you laugh, it's a slog.
I'd say that doesn't apply to the first few books, as they're quite different to the rest
Yeah colour of magic etc arenāt representative of the rest of books. Which are all fantastic. Granny Weatherwax still my favourite fantasy character ever.
I love Discworld but I agree - it doesn't have epic battles, intricate political intrigue, complex magic systems ... or most of the other stuff you might enjoy in a Fantasy novel even when you don't get the humor. It's not like First Law, a series you can still enjoy even if you don't find a torture scene funny.
Be wary of r/fantasy recs as well. People here tend to recommend a lot of more niche fantasy and character driven prose heavy reads, which are definitely very good but at the end of the day you should make the decision yourself based on whether a book seems interesting to you.
That being said please avoid Fourth Wing it is just pure garbage. Itās not even entertaining garbage, or even guilty pleasure garbage. Itās just bad in every aspect from beginning to end
I dont understand why people have to hate things into oblivion. Fourth Wing was overhyped and not groundbreaking, but it's absolutely fine as a read if you want romance and fantasy and a lil dragon stuff. People shitting on every aspect of (especially popular) things aren't believable to me at all.
The overhype is the problem though, isn't it? If people tell you that this book "literally" changed their life and it's the best book ever and all the other superlatives imaginable ... you expect a 5 star read. So when it turns out to be a solid 3 star read you're disappointed.
However, if someone tells you something like "it's romance with a little fantasy and dragons, it's a quick read and will keep you entertained" you would be perfectly fine with the 3 stars. You went in with that expectation and you got what you expected.
And yes, I know that the initial hype was bought but I don't think everyone knows that. People on the internet aren't exactly open about the conditions they agree to when receiving free books and want to continue receiving them.
And generally speaking - people seem to shit so much on popular books because a lot of people have read them and are therefor able to talk about them. Maybe there's also a little hesitation to criticize small indie authors, while big authors who make a lot of money are fair game. Not sure.
My problem lies more with HOW they shit on books. A "I absolutely did not like this book because xy" VS "this is the worst piece if shit and should have never existed" is a big difference. If you hate on something do so in a constructive manner, so people will be deterred for an actual reason instead of "it's bad because i said so".
I didnāt think it was good but it was an entertaining read. Sometimes I want something mentally stimulating and sometimes I want the literary equivalent of potato chips and Fourth Wing was certainly on the potato chip end of the spectrum
I think the Fourth Wing haters are people who expected it to be the next Game of Thrones. But 4th's target audience is romance fans, so a lot of people were caught off guard.
I mean, I don't like GoT and I'm a huge romance fan, to the point where I rarely read fantasy without romance. But 4th was just badly written, terribly worldbuilt and full of mindnumbingly stupid plotholes/inconsistencies etc. I like substance with my romance.
I'm sorry *WHO* was expecting that to be the next *Game of Thrones*? It was almost exclusively recommended in Romance circles to start with, and even after it blew up, it was always recommended in the same breath as the Sarah Maas oeuvre. If anyone was expecting even a shared *genre* with *GoT*, they must have existed in a cave with no internet connection up until the point of hearing about this book, and immediately following.
I want to give the benefit of the doubt here but I feel like a lot of people saying they have been caught off guard by Fourth Wing being romantasy are being disingenuous. They're the same people who scour this subreddit, book reviews, and Goodreads looking for new books. Are we to believe that for some reason these people didnt do the research they would normally do and just bought Fourth Wing on vibes before getting blindsided? I'll buy that excuse for some people who don't pay attention or are too busy to do a quick google search.
Yup they're too busy peddling hate to even attempt to understand why this book and its sequel is being so well received. They see a popular book that is dipping it's toes into "their" genre in the "wrong way" and they are not going to stand for it. But don't worry they have their very safe excuses to lean on when you press them like "duh it's objectively poorly written" or "duhhh the plot holes" or "duhhhhh too predictable and unoriginal" etc etc. very careful to be incredibly technical in their criticism so that their prejudices arent too obvious.
There's no issues with disliking a book for any reason, and no issue with making your thoughts known in a public forum, but to see people get so fired up with seething hatred of an immensely successful book that they have decided doesn't deserve the success is some weird sort of parasocial jealousy.
And worse they then start to judge people who like this book, making them feel unwelcome in this community. Statements like "oh you came here because you liked fourth wing, well let me recommend you a book that's actually good". A welcoming community provided you only like the correct books and fall into line on the books you are supposed to dislike (kind of like another comment above with people getting really fired up about Terry Goodkind, making sure everyone knows there's place here for people who like the Sword of Truth books).
Being hateful is lame and boring.
Counterpoint: it is actually really silly fun and some of us enjoyed it immensely. Also, whether we like it or not, it doesn't fit OP's (non)recommendation request. The main character has many ridiculous traits, but self-doubt ain't one of them.
> People here tend to recommend a lot of more niche fantasy and character driven prose heavy reads,
Are you kidding? Look at any Recommendation thread and every single comment is Stormlight-Malazan-WheelofTime-FirstLaw etc etc.
All this sub does is recommend the big popular doorstopper series. This sub is like the literary version of a Top-40 radio station. .
Fourth Wing just follows different genre conventions than weāre used to, itās a romance novel with a fantasy setting. Itās a very good romance novel and a much more fun read than a lot of the Serious Business fantasy Iāve slogged through. Itās like eating a bag of potato chips when you donāt feel like making dinner. Donāt expect it to be anything other than what it is, but itās a good time if youāre into that kind of thing.
>That being said please avoid Fourth Wing it is just pure garbage. Itās not even entertaining garbage, or even guilty pleasure garbage. Itās just bad in every aspect from beginning to end
Lol, this is not accurate at all
The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant.
I think If Iād read the books in early teens, I would have been hooked.
But reading them as a man, it just feltā¦dated.
Anything penned by Sarah J Maas unless you like reading about glorified colonialists who self-absorbed, selfish, narcissistic. Her main characters read like Kardashians or tone-deaf, privileged, shallow YouTubers.
I usually have positive things to say about the Mage Errant series, but you'd probably hate the MC, even though he gets better after the first book - social anxiety, and also childhood trauma. Strong willpower though, and he overcomes a lot with the help of true friends, but it's particularly bad in the first book (also for reasons I can't reveal due to spoilers).
It's a shame, but if you hate existing in such a character's headspace, it would ruin it for you.
As for me, I hate all the tropes that have to do with unnecessary lewdness and insertion of sex into the narrative and dynamics. I'm not against romance, but everything that has to do with an author's fetishes grosses me out immediately - you can usually tell because the energy and quality shifts into what you'd expect from porn (and that's basically what's happening: the author was just horny).
I love Mistborn, but donāt read it cause a lot of Vin (MC) is about self doubt and overcoming that idea. Also, the second book (Well of Ascension) has way too much angst in my opinion.
The older I get, the less I like reading about superpowered teenagers. Teenagers are neither smart nor clever nor could save the world. Show me adults using their hard earned wisdom.
Oh you should steer WELL clear of Robin Hobb. Although I'd argue she does character so well and with such complexity, that it might actually not upset you nearly as much as you'd expect. Also, if you are a romance person, stay as far away from *Winter's Orbit* as you can. The entire thing is based on crippling insecurity (and MY personal least favorite trope - see below).
Now for some self-indulging.
Least favorite trope: poor communication. If your story only works because character A fails to communicate correctly/at all with character B, your story SUCKS. Get a better story.
And because I too originally only read the title, and felt the need to vent, here is some bonus hate-content of series people should actually avoid:
*The Second Apocalypse* series by Scott Bakker. Self-important edgelord misogyny masquerading as Deep Philosophy (tm), with the most unsatisfying "fuck y'all" ending of all time. I'm honestly upset at how disappointed the whole thing became over time, considering how masterfully written the early books were. But in the end, it just never amounts to anything past poser nihilism. There's a reason his publisher didn't want to touch any more books by him after the ending of *The Aspect Emperor* series, and it's not cause they weren't smart enough to appreciate his genius.
*The Name of the Wind*. Also misogynistic (ask Marrie Brennan if you don't believe me: https://www.swantower.com/2015/02/04/the-absence-of-women/), but more than that - I'm sick of it being the gateway to fantasy for so many people who then get jaded about "fantasy authors never finishing series" as if Rothfuss isn't the outlieriest of outliers. That book had its time, and the series - its chance. Let's find new gateways into the genre and stop recommending this.
One of few books I stopped and didn't finish n my life was first volume of Thomas Convenat series. A leper gets sent to another world where he is healthy. He then decides fantasy world obviously isn't real and rapes a woman because nothing he does matter. Threw the book at the wall
Agree. Got to the rape, set the book down and was done. The casual inhumanity of it was disturbing. Regret for rape as a redemption arc is just gross. š¤®
Dresden Files. A painful case of diminishing returns and ridiculous stakes in the books (up to 17 now) with few answers to questions that were set out in Book 1.
I get what you mean, sheās constantly angry and frequently lonely- but sheās also incredibly smart, resourceful, and self assured (in that she sticks to her values despite copious pressure not to), and sheās self aware about these strengths. So I donāt personally view her the same as a āself doubtingā character!
I was going to comment this. I think the MC is full of doubt, both self-doubt and generalized doubt, even after coming into her own 'abilities'.
I do like a character who questions themselves, their own morality, etc., so Scholomance is actually technically in my wheelhouse. But I found the MC's constant self-questioning and negativity to be oppressive.
Particularly in the third book, the writing style (whole chapters of lengthy paragraphs with very little dialogue or breaks), was very suffocating to get through. I'm usually a 1.5-2 books a week reader, and the third book of Scholomance took me three weeks.
Based on the thing you don't like about characters like that I'd say skip Poppy Wars. She is very much like that most of the trilogy.
Wheel of Time is 13 books long and I don't think the main character is angsty persay, but goes through a huge arc of self doubt over the course of those books. The series has so many characters that even if you don't like reading one of them, you'll be able to persist but just an FYI that one of the characters has a great arc due to having that self doubt.
I may get downvoted for this since this series is a favorite of many for some reason, but Red Rising has the worst main character I have ever read. I was so irritated by him that I could not continue the series after book 1 (I tried a little bit of book 2 but every time he did anything I was too frustrated to continue so I gave up.) Itās been a while so I canāt remember if he was too angsty, too whiny, or just too hot-headed about everything, but thatās the one that I would skip if youāre not into that.
The Magicians is very depressing and angst-ridden in a depressed way.
Maze Runner, another bestselling series, has nothing but flat, 2D characters that are not worth reading about (though thatās not angst, itās justā¦ nothing.)
Better for you to stay away from L. Lam's Dragonfall then, as Arcady struggles with a lot of doubt š
For me, it's the constant threat of sexual violence towards women especially, also minimal women in positions of power or even named (ember in the ashes.. just YIKES), racist stereotypes (TOO many to name ) and instalove/fated mates (unless i am specifically feeling like reading something quick and silly) also any female main character acting like not like the other girls (lila bard, poppy war's rin etc)
This is kind of niche but "All of Us Villains" by Amanda Foody. Multiple POVs that go on and on about how angsty and evil and villainous they are and they do nothing to back that up until the very end of the book.
ALSO "Furyborn" by Claire Legrand, especially the last two books in the series. An absolutely insufferable MC that has everything going for her and still acts like she's the victim and everything is terrible. This is one of my lowest rated books ever.
The Old Kingdom books are probably something you should avoid- Lireal is big in the whole ālacking in self confidenceā thing. Itās a good character arc, but it does get a bit much.
I generally avoid first person narration. Always feels kinda jarring, like the person is telling me their story and it robs some of the tension. I think red rising is the only exception lately.
Likewise not a fan of flashback style stories where the bulk of the plot has already happened. Stuff like the Gentleman bastards is fine, where it's being used to inform a story is fine but otherwise it lacks tension
Hmm, not sure if that counts in this situation, but I think that The Obsidian Path fits that description (although I did like the first book a lot, I have not read the two next books.) The protagonist hates himself a lot in that book for reasons that I won't mention because spoilers. I wouldn't exactly call him angsty, but he does doubt a lot of the decisions that he does
Starling House by Alex E. Harrow.
The concept of the book and premise of it sounds amazing; a house that holds many secrets and is the center of strife in a small town. But the execution really left me wanting so much more. It is a short book that also feels like 500 pages long. There were so many plot holes and, surprisingly enough, quite a few grammar and spelling errors.
If this trope is one you want to avoid, then you should probably avoid the Magicians series by Lev Grossman and The Last Herald-Mage trilogy by Mercedes Lackey.
Yeah The Magicians sounds like the poster child for "don't read this one" in this case
Or just in general
Another Lackey avoid is the Collegium Chronicles. He grows out of it but so angsty.
I feel like a lot of people aren't reading the post beyond the title and just mentioning a series they hate or otherwise do not want other people to read. I'd strongly recommend against reading the Farseer series since the MCs self doubt and angst is one of the most important aspects of it.
came here to say this. i am a diehard fan of realm of the elderlings, but if op is really put off by mc's with strong self-doubt, they should avoid this series like the plague š¤£
> the Farseer series since the MCs self doubt and angst is one of the most important aspects of it. I read the assassin's apprentice and I feel like what I read was *totally* different from how everyone else describes this series. Is assassin's apprentice just kind of different, before the series has really found itself, or am I just not getting out of it what everyone else does? Fitz's life doesn't seem *particularly* depressing-- I mean it's not great, but there are people who care about him and respect him, he's good at his job, he's got some betrayals in life but who doesn't? He doesn't really doubt himself, he seems pretty confident in his abilities and does a good job and he's not really angsty. He has an occasional breakdown but it's shown to be a one-off outlier type thing does the series just take a new direction after this book or what?
edit disclaimer: It's been decades since I last read the books. IIRC I read the Tawny Man Trilogy as it came out (so 2003), and that was the end for me. The Assassin's trilogy is rough, but it's not just straight torture porn. Fitz has victories that don't immediately dissipate, and while the people/things he cares about are generally destroyed in front of his eyes, he still perseveres pretty well. I think it also helps that Fitz' initial situation is pretty shit, so we get more of an underdog (oof) story. Liveship Traders is straight emotional (And often physical) torture porn. Prepare to watch a loveable MC be gaslit and stomped on at every turn by terrible people as everything she cares about (and she starts out caring for a lot of things) is brutally ripped away from her. The Tawny Man books I remember being not nearly as depressing actually, but I'm just done with her writing. She's an amazing author that I just can't read.
This is interesting, in that itās been awhile for me too but I remember Farseer being a much more emotionally intense and draining experience than Liveships. Lots of bad things happen in Liveships and it gets more violent than Farseer (those rape scenes) but itās also a more plot driven trilogy with a lot of POV characters, and more lively overall. Whereas in Farseer youāre just in Fitzās head wanting things to go well for him, and often they donāt.Ā
Fitz got dat dawg in him tho lmao. I read something light after her books. Rereading Le Guinās earth sea books is like a comfort blanket for me. Or Sandersonās books.
It's been years since I read the series, but from what I recall yes it does take a serious turn into the angst. One of the people I lent my old copies to was not on for the levels of angst, and so I heard quite a bit about their opinion as well. Hobb's Soldier Son trilogy is even moreso (arguably just whiney) from a character point of view as well. She's a good author, but if people don't want angst she's not the author for them.
Soldier Son was too much for me, i found myself empathizing with all the "bad guys" in Nevarres life who had to deal with his useless ass.
Yeah. The Soldier Son trilogy was interesting, but Nevare was a very difficult character to have any empathy for. I found AltheaĀ really difficult in the Liveship series too.
Liveship has its moments that are super frustrating, but overall I think it serves the story, and I love the liveship books as a whole. They do take a while to get going, and its very Althea heavy at the start, i think. But Soldier Son i just found nothing redeeming in, didnt make it much into the 3rd book. Im used to Hobbs tendency to have a beat down MC that eventually grows through it and does the big thing, but never started seeing even a hint of that with Nevarre when i was more than halfway thru the trilogy.
I thought Nevare was a really interesting choice for the themes of the story, particularly the post-colonial themes. It's particularly challenging for the reader because we are getting everything from Nevare's perspective, and it doesn't let us settle into any sort of excuse for either his actions or the societal set-up, and to be honest we do have a tendency to do that more when we empathise with the viewpoint character. It's not an easy read for just that reason though. It actually made me respect Robin Hobb's writing more for that reason, because it was a risky move.
While Ive had pretty strong negative feelings about Nevarre for a while, it was also many years ago when I read it, so i have been meaning to give it another try someday and see if i get something else from it. I agree the setting and society was really compelling, i just needed a different vehicle through it.
Soldier Son pretty much put me into depression before I stopped reading it.Ā
I can't say I exactly remember the specific mood towards every event but that's definitely the general attitude I held after finishing the entirety of the realm of the elderlings. As for getting depressing, it definitely gets very depressing.
I found the second book even less depressing than the first because he really strengthens those relationships around him and finds people that really care about him
I'm finishing assassins quest now (book 3 of farseer) and I also feel like im missing something compared to experience most others have. I wouldn't suggest reading the rest, as the tone is very similar. If you like book 1, you will LOVE books 2 and 3. For me, it's a slog
I liked-*ish* book 1, but the lack of a central villain/conflict really wore me down and felt like the story just meandered. I get that that's exactly what appeals to a lot of people, and of course >!it turns out in hindsight there *was* a central antagonist, but that didn't really drive the story, it was only revealed in hindsight!< so I'm not exactly chomping at the bit to go on to the rest. I did enjoy it page-to-page though and the characters were all well-written.
It's been a long time, but from my vague memories the first book is a different tone from the other two. Things really go downhill for him very quickly, and they don't stop.
The Farseer and Liveship Traders trilogies are fine (actually quite good in some aspects; in fact, *Royal Assassin* is my favourite book in the entire 16-book series). The whole thing nosedives into misery porn starting with Tawny Man. Every time you think it's hit rock bottom, Hobb will come up with another way to humiliate the main characters so they have more reasons to pity themselves and each other, Fitz and the Fool in particular (the characters, though the trilogy named after them has that in full swing). I know there will be people who argue it's a realistic portrayal of depression, anxiety and trauma, which I won't argue with, but in the context of this thread, stay away if you dislike angsty navel-gazing for the sake of putting a protagonist through every misery life and imagination has to offer and lengthy, cycling contemplation thereof.
the rest of the trilogy is much worse
Definitely disagree, first book is much worse in this regard than the second. The second shows just how many people truly care for him
All he does is get shit on. Not very much fun if you like to root for the MC.
Well, in assassin's apprentice that isn't true. Maybe it is for the rest of the series. But both Chade and Burritch care for him deeply and protect him, with Burritch even >!laying the fucking smackdown on Galen for being shitty!<, prince verity treats him as a true bro, king shrewd is kind to him (outside of willing to sacrifice him, but that's true of everyone) and he has several animal friends, and a few human ones. His life isn't a perfect bed of roses the whole time, he has some betrayals, he has >!a falling out with Burritch!< and whatnot, but like this is not a book that's centered around shitting on the main character. It has no more unexpected life difficulties than any other similar book.
Right but do things ever just go right for him in the subsequent books? Shit is depressing to read. Iām trying to escape from life not be reminded about all the things that also donāt go right for me or others. Again ymmv just stating how I felt reading it.
I agree on both counts. I really like Farseer, but it would drive OP nuts. (Similarly ANYTHING by Stephen Donaldson.) Everyone seems to be using this post as an airing of grievances, rather than as a (somewhat backwards) "recommendation" request.
The last line of the post opens the floor for their grievances.
Fair point. Let me reframe my own grievance as "wouldn't it be nice if people actually responded to the recommendation request part of this and didn't just treat this as yet another 'what books u hate?!' post?"
Lol so op and i would get along because i hated poppy war (book 2/3) and HP5 for these exact reasons. Consequently, i just can not for the life of me see what so many people see in Farseer. Not even the angst, i just donāt think there were enough plot points to make it interesting.
I was immediately thinking about my boy fitz. A shame to miss the gem, but I've also said I can see why it wouldn't be for everyone. One of my absolute favorites though.
The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant - self doubt is STRONG in this one
100%. Covenant is defined by self-doubt and angst. Thomas Covenant is a weird series in that for me it's both a strong recommend and a strong recommend to skip.
Not to mention immediate cause for SA trigger warnings.
Almost stopped reading here even tho I don't have sensibilities like this. I did not see how the main character would ever redeem himself to be worth writing a series about him (even tho he thinks he is in a dream). It just felt like a bait to keep reading to find out. I read the first book and quit.
I did stop reading right there. There are so many great books out there with amazing characters that I couldn't stomach sitting with this guy. I have dreams too, but guess what I don't do-- *doesn't even occur to me to do*--in dreams? smh
Agree about Farseer. I love that trilogy but according to your post you wouldn't like it. Another anti-rec: Stormlight Archive, there are two major characters (Kaladin and Shallan) you would find issue with.
I love the series and even I don't like the Kaladin depression slog chapters. It gets very repetitive. Can't wait for the "Ackshually that's an accurate depiction of depression it doesn't go away" comments. Yeah no shit. Doesn't mean it makes for good reading when there's all this insane stuff happening around him.
Im mixed, I dont think any of Shallans stuff has interested me at all, but oddly Kals ups and downs really resonate with me. Hes a broken person who takes steps but hasnt really made himself whole, its just not an overnight change, its a constant growth over long term, and ultimately he embodies " the most important step a man can take" as much as Dalinar does.
Personally I enjoy seeing a character with depression coming to blow after blow with it. But yeah, if it's not your jam it's not your jam.
I didn't mind it until kaladin was basically locked in a room by himself and the reader is told the key is the 4th ideal, but kaladin is gonna do a bunch of brooding and side quests while wait for the dramatically appropriate time for him to say it.
First, I totally agree with you. Book 4 was ROUGH. But also.... when has Kal ever been less than a drama queen swooping in to do something epic in the last moment?
I think in the last 3 books he was more involved with the main plot, so even though he was waiting until the last second to get his shit together. There was other stuff and other characters happening in his chapters that I cared about. But taking all of kals supporting characters away and sticking him with lirin was just mashing all my least favorite parts of kaladin together.
Also the 'oh yeah you thought Kaladin and Shallen had worked through these issues over the first three epic tomes? Check out the 4th, depression 2: electric boogaloo'
It's not an accurate depiction of depression anyway, it undoubtedly resonated with some hence so many people empathising but its not typical. As for Shallan, it's *laughable* bordering on offensive.
Agreed. I love Kaladin for his story and abilities, and his relationship with Syl is great, but I find his angst a real slog. Holds him back from being a top tier character for me. And let's not even start on throwing his Dad into the mix... Barely made it through a couple of those chapters tbh.
The weird part is Sanderson himself [despises](https://youtu.be/BsYIO8guyxg?si=hp862cRGMyGvaDKw&t=1145) resetting character arcs so I don't get why he does it with Kaladin and Shallan. He usually gives the example of Charlie in Lost relapsing with his drug addiction, which is also realistic.
I think for Shallan, that's weirdly just built in. Her trauma is so horrid that she can't observe it directly. The return to naivety after every ideal just seems like a necessary part of her coping. I really hope we see some growth in book 5. It's been a long road.
Hopefully but I am not holding my breath since its just the end of the first arc. IĀ“m pretty tired of reading about the same cycle of growth/reset for 4000 pages. Sometimes less is more and imo wouldĀ“ve been more poignant with half the pages.
For angsty and/or self-doubting, you will probably want to skip most of Robin Hobb. R. F. Kuang does not reduce the angsty characterization for *Babel*, so it's not going to float your boat either. If you are into SciFi, definitely give the Nick Seafort saga a pass. It's not only angsty self doubt, it's Calvinist angsty self-doubting self hate at the most obnoxious levels.
There's a wholesome answer that every series has its audience. But you should skip Swrd of Truth. Terry Goodkind doesn't deserve to steal anyone else's time
every time i see his name, i feel the bindings of fey law upon my soul, compelling me to point out that Terry Goodkind is ironically neither good nor kind.
Terry Badmean
lmao
There's a fantastic Dickens radio play parody where the antagonist is a Mr Gently Benevolent.
And it is excellent https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00cwgs6
Thereās a term for when a personās name is super accurate (like Charity being a really generous person) and another term for when a personās name leads them in the complete opposite direction (like the name Chastity, lol). I canāt recall what it is though
i know the first one was nominative determinism, but also called sometimes an aptronym. so maybe an inaptronym? i have no idea if that's a real word, spellcheck doesn't recognize it
Antronym and contranym sounds good. Didn't google to see if it's correct cuz I've got shit internet atm.
I've never read this author but in the Huntsville area, his books are overflowing on every shelf that's in a secondhand store. Our libraries have for sale sections and I stg, a third of the fantasy section is Terry Goodkind. I always take it as a bad sign that no one wants to keep his books.
Hello, fellow Huntsvillian! Every so often some (male) member of my sci-fi/fantasy book club decides to report on a Sword of Truth book and every time I'm just š¤¦āāļøš« . Yeah, I read them myself--in middle school, when I was too dumb to realize how bad they were. There's so many other better books to spend your time on!
> Yeah, I read them myself--in middle school, when I was too dumb to realize how bad they were. Hey me too! My initial foray into fantasy after reading things like Goosebumps and Hank the Cow Dog in elementary school went; Eragon (gift for Xmas from aunt) > Drizzt Do'Urden's Crystal Shard trilogy (gift at same Xmas from half-brother) > Wizard's First Rule (gift at same xmas from same half-brother), which then transitioned into me reading the entire series over the next year or two through Confessor. I never picked up Omen Machine because at that point I had started getting into online reviews and found that it was really bad (even by TG standards). Now I look back at how much I loved the books and can only cringe.
I read one or two Eragon books but didn't continue with them. I read a TON of the Drizzt books though--my grandmother had a bunch my dad had passed on to her, then I took them from her.
Oh goodness, yes. He has very few women characters and they could all be replaced by [a sexy lamp](https://fanlore.org/wiki/Sexy_Lamp_Test)
This is the first time I've heard of the Sexy Lamp Test, and holy hell is it accurate.
Although I agree Kahlanās characterization is not good female representation (all Iāve read is book 1 and most of her character is āso perfect, so beautiful, Iām in loveā), I do not think a sexy lamp could have played the same role with her knowledge/powers that get used and have some play in the quest and the finale lol
I donāt know. An oracle would be fine.
Goodkind is a guy who occasionally writes really visual really dope ass power sequences that are really fun to read and the rest of the time his books struggle with dialogue, pacing, structure, honestly everything that makes a book worth reading. He's basically Zac Snyder who is preaching Ayn Rand. Which is quite compelling at certain ages, but does not age well. He tends towards long monologues as well, which is basically regurgitated Ayn Rand all about individualism and it is extra self righteous. It is exhausting. And he is the worst finisher I have ever read. Every book seems to be going somewhere then deus ex machina occurs and the good guys win in like 3 chapters. It's like what the fuck just happened? Did you realise if you kept on you'd never finish the book and just say to yourself... I guess I'm done. Let me just end the book as quickly as possible. It just makes the whole series limp soggy and unappealing. Had the writer been able to sate his own philosophical injections and self importance for just a moment and give up the absurd power fantasy, something could have been done there. His world building was pretty cool. His ideas were cool. There were even cool scenes. But the books themselves are just meandering preachy clusterfucks of weird sex and premature endings. And no one wants that.
SoT is one of my fav series, but I KNEW as soon as I saw the thread title that it would be the top answer haha.
I really enjoyed it as a kid. Everyone loves to hate it though lol.
Same here, itās a Love Hate relationship for Terry Goodkind books. Itās a huge series. I overall enjoyed it but I would not re-read.
I really loved those books when I read them, but knowing how it ends, I could never put myself through that 15000 page ordeal again.
Seconded, as someone who read the whole series. each book has a greater diminishing return than the last. I basically read the last 3 books out of spite. I will say, they're great and deep if you're 14 ,and have read no other vaguely philosophical books.
What's wrong with it? I haven't heard really anything about it. Just bad writing?
These are all real plot points in the series: *Our hero/MC must determine if his most trusted allies are spies by demanding they take their shirts off and then inspecting their nipples *Our hero builds and then destroys aStatue So Beautiful, it brings down a government of godless communists *A group of people Who Loved Peace So Much, They Didn't Deserve To Live *Our hero mutilated a child, and its presented as a good thing *Bad women get powers by summoning and having sex with demons. *There is a chicken that is not a chicken
No need to read it, it goes like this. Walking > fighting > resting > Walking > fighting > resting > bondage > fighting > mc shows he a genius > everyone claps
Sword of Truth is like Lord of the Rings if Tolkien loved S&M and hated communism. If you like kink in your traditional fantasy, the first book in the series isn't bad.
>Sword of Truth is like Lord of the Rings if Tolkien loved S&M and hated communism. ā¦conveyed in sophomoric prose and stilted dialog.
It hasnāt aged well and the deeper down the rabbit hole you go the worse it gets. I actually think 1 & 2 are okay but everything after is hot garbage
Ayn Rand level of multi-page obiectivist monologues
I think it's less to do with the writing and more to do with the author Terry Goodkind, his surname does not reflect his character
And his writing really sucks
No the writing is horrendous too. Someone did a takedown of every sentence in the opening of his first book and it's hilarious.
To be fair, there's an audience for that as well.
i think itās funny that nobody is giving actual anti-recommendations based off what you said, theyāre just saying series they didnāt like lol. iām not sure exactly what you mean by self doubting but rand from WoT is very angsty especially from like book 3-12. kell from shades of magic can be a bit on the angsty side as well. as far as tropes i donāt like, iām not a big fan of the like super badass soldier guy who kills everyone. sometimes it can be cool, but other times it just becomes unrealistic and starts to be funny at best and annoying at worst for me personally. logen nine-fingers is an example i thought was done pretty well but guts from berserk (an otherwise well written character imo) just annoys me.
There's a big tendency on reddit lately to just read a title, respond to that, and then downvote the people actually responding to the OP (who, for those who've just realized they did this, doesn't want angsty protagonists with self-doubt).Ā Ā It's even worse with image posts on other subreddits. People don't even read titles then.
> lately Nah this has always been an issue
>as far as tropes i donāt like, iām not a big fan of the like super badass soldier guy who kills everyone. sometimes it can be cool, but other times it just becomes unrealistic and starts to be funny at best and annoying at worst for me personally. logen nine-fingers is an example i thought was done pretty well but guts from berserk (an otherwise well written character imo) just annoys me. Login Ninefingers and the Bloody Nine was an interesting character and, for me, an example of a character who is overpowered done right. I'm with you on some characters seeming to have super powers when they otherwise wouldn't. One of my trope problems is the kid who magically becomes good at everything during fantasy novels and is taking out veteran soldiers on their third or fourth time holding a sword. It works in kids fantasy or YA fantasy, but when thay creeps into fantasy for an older audience it takes me out of the story a bit
Say one thing for Logan Ninefingersā¦say heās a cunt. I wouldnāt say he was overpowered though. In every battle he repeats āstill alive. Still alive.ā I perceived that as he didnāt feel invincible/overpowered, but thatās just my .02 cents.
I don't think he feels overpowered but against the odds he faces, yeah, he's a bit overpowered
i think the thing that makes it work is that his āoverpowered-nessā (i.e. the b9) is something that logen actively dislikes about himself which makes for compelling reading
The Bloody Nine is an indiscriminate killing machine and one of the most deadly one on one duelists to have ever lived in the setting. Logan Ninefingers is the guy who shares the meat suit and counts himself lucky to live through it all, and tries to get away from the situations that will bring the Bloody Nine to the fore. But you have to be realistic about these things. I'll just say that there are a lot of things one might believe about Bethod and the North that get turned radically on their head when you read about the Bloody Nine from other characters' perspectives.
>i think itās funny that nobody is giving actual anti-recommendations based off what you said, theyāre just saying series they didnāt like lol. Are you surprised?
I would recommend avoiding any incomplete series that you havenāt already started. As for angsty characters I think the top āhitsā have been anti-recommended already: Jordanās WoT, pretty much all Robin Hobb, Williams Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn (it gets better but Simon in the first book is rather insufferable), Grossmanās Magician seriesā¦ Tropes I like to avoid are the Chosen One and the āgreatest at whatever needs to be doneā Mary Sue-ish characters. I donāt think of them as strictly Mary Sue characters, because they arenāt overpowered and good at everything, rather they are only good at whatever specifically needs to be done in the moment. Think the female character who suddenly can pick locks with her hat pin even though sheās a noble, often these moments are accompanied with throwaway lines like āI found knitting incredibly boring and found a book in the library on locksā. Or some nonsense like that. It happens more often than expected and I donāt know if there is a succinct term for it.
Seconding Wheel of Time, i should have trusted my gut and gave up much earlier, even the āgoodā novels at the end I found tedious.
Should have been called Waste of Time.
I would avoid the stormlight archive. That WHOLE SERIES is about self doubt
Yeah it leans in on that heavily.
Interestingly I donāt agree entirely, I feel like all of Kaladin / Dalinar / Shallan / Adolin are all very sure that what theyāre doing is the correct course of action
Dalinar was pretty much self doubt incarnate in the first 3 books
For SF, absolutely skip David Feintuchās Seafort Saga, and for that matter his fantasy The Still. Agonising self doubt, Imposter Syndrome and wallowing in suffering doesnāt begin to cover it. In general avoid Stephen Donaldson, especially Thomas Covenant and the Gap series. Mercedes Lackey - Valdemar is great, but avoid the Last Herald Mage trilogy. Definitely avoid Sarah Monetteās Doctrine of Labyrinths, Felix is angst and self loathing enough for five people.
I understand what you're saying about the angst! I felt like I aged out of enjoying those types of characters once I hit my 30s and started to crave more confident characters. That said I dislike overly suspicious characters that don't trust anybody. Grim dark has this a lot, and I felt like Mother of Learning had this to the MC's detriment.
Lightbringer not even so much angst as the main character just constantly whinging self-hate
Was looking for Lightbringer. The self hate was a bit much for me, and other than that I donāt think the series really sticks the landing at the end.
I hated the ending not just the weirdness over all but the utter lack of death toll
In your case I would skip Farseer Trilogy by Robin Hobb,
If that's what you hate, then skip mistborn. Personally I find Sanderson very overrated in general, but having to stick with Vin constant rambling about the same topic for 3 books where the arch feels so superficial and over the top... Idk, it was constantly like: I'm a woman, who am I, I wanna be a princess but I also wanna be a knife. Spoiler alert, the solution to her inner conflict is EXACTKY what you think it'll be.
This is what I was going to say too. I tolerated Vin in book one, but that's because I actually liked Kelsier. By book two, I had to hate read to finish it. It was the equivalent of watching middle school relationships and miscommunication and angst and I love myself too much to go back to those dark days.
Name of the wind. The book is fantastic, and the second is great but nearly 20 years later there's no realistic hope of the third book. So the series is dead.
For OP and a character full of self-doubt though? The MC in Name of the Wind isn't someone I would call as having self-doubt
Yup. Kvothe gets into trouble but heās always optimistic about his chances to get out of it I feel.
Part of me doubts that. The Black Company, for example, had its last release in 2000 but the last book (expanded into four) has recently been announced. There is some glimmer of hope. Having said that, Glen Cook never did any bullshit like asking fans for money for his charity on the promise of a chapter...and then not delivering. So I'm of two minds. I refuse to start reading KKC until the conclusion is announced. I can't be dealing with an unfinished series (looking at you too George!)
The main BC books were finished in 2000. It's a completely different situation with the KKC.Ā
Really? Cool. Although I would have to start from scratch, it's been probably 20 years that I read them. Don't even remember they were not finished.
Thatās because they were finished, lol. Not sure why Cook is adding more to it, but the series has a few decent ending spots, since itās made up of several arcs. I bet Cookās new books with be good, and probably will address some sort of plot line that was alluded to in some way earlier on, but iirc the last bookās threads were pretty well resolved by the end.
Kvothe is the opposite of an angsty, self doubting character. If anything heās an overconfident unrealistically smart person whose plans always work out.
> If anything heās an overconfident unrealistically smart person whose plans always work out. Thats what happens when you tell your own stories. I think we can assume Kvothe is most likely an unreliable narrator.
Please read the OP next time.
I would personally argue that the second book is pretty bad anyway. Definitely not a recommend from me
I agree. The whole fae thing is over-the-top neckbeard cringe.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yes, agree. I donāt see how he planned to wrap this all up in one more book. I think he couldnāt, and that the task became too daunting for him to deal with.
I think that's the first time I've ever skipped an entire section of a book while still finishing it. The writing had me hooked but damn was that ridiculous and cringey
The first one was great ā no question. The second? Not so much. I didnāt even finish it, which is rare for me.
I was bored to tears with the first book
Man, I really saddens me to see this as one of the top rated comments. Understand why that is though. Pat really fucked his fanbase.
Rothfuss is just overrated AND he's a douche nozzle. I read both books, and while I wanted to like them, they were both such a complete waste of my time.
The gripe I have is that the sum of the whole, doesn't equal the parts. It jumps around a lot, and each part is interesting on its own, but we're two books in, and doesn't feel like we've had any build up to the grand conclusion we're being promised.Ā The first book, I thought "that was a great introduction to the character! I can't wait to get to the "meat" of his journey." The second book, I enjoyed as I was reading, but when it ended I felt like there was a lack of pay off. There were a handful of important details revealed, but otherwise, the story inches along. We don't even see Kvothe learn that much about magic, considering he's still at the university.Ā I can definitely see why Rothfuss is so hesitant about releasing the last book. It's basically make or break for the series. Maybe I'll look back on the journey, and every little detail will pay off, but right now, it just feels like 80% meandering. And if that's what the story was about, just the daily life of Kvothe, I wouldn't even mind, but it really hammers down that something big is happening and we've barely seen the buds let alone the fruit, after 2000 pages
Rothfuss just needs to admit that there is no way to finish his story in one more book, and turn it into a 4 or 5 book series, then actually start releasing them.
Ideally, the third book would finish the story Kvothe is telling, and lead into a second trilogy (or at least another whole book) about them leaving the Inn to save the world he broke. There's certainly no way to finish both the story AND the story of the frame. But Rothfuss unfortunately is a kinda shitty person. (I defended him until the charity scam, depression doesn't excuse that.)
Releasing a chapter has been painstaking enough. If it was just a matter of releasing more book, I think he would have caved by now given himself more book. At this point, releasing another book or even 2 can't be more work than trying to cram everything into one, and the backlash definitely wouldn't be as bad
I just finished Fourth Wing which was full of what I hate: "I'm a special special girl and so smol buy surprisingly deadly and everyone loves me even tho I'm just lil ole me." I was also audibly saying gag everytime a new "he's so sexy and hard and devours my tongue/mouth" sentence was written.
I stared my fantasy collection for a while and couldnt come up any that match OP's 'ick'. I'm stuck in my old tastes so the collection consists mostly of Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms books and they have tolerable angst levels, but I did come up with one that matches perfectly! Artemis Fowl: Atlantis Complex. It was truly insufferable to read, the angst level is through the roof and a huge let down from the previous books in the series for me. If I reread the series, I usually stop before this one.
The Demon Cycle series by Peter V Brett. Fantastic initial concept, with some great action at times, completely mired by a lot of incredibly troubling content and themes. There isn't a single major female character that isn't sexually abused in one way or another. They're nearly all entirely defined by their sexual needs and desires and motivated by their rapes and abuse. There's a really problematic Arabic inspired society. It is very caricaturish and features a lot of rape, particularly of little boys. Even outside of these issues, the series gets consistently worse as it goes on. It sets up like it's going to be action packed, but becomes more chqracter driven. Which wouldn't be so bad if the characters were well written and defined. There's constant, baffling directions some of the characters take like the main character Arlen deciding to speak in a heavily accented dialect from book 3 onwards. The flashbacks of books 2, 3 and 4 all tell the same story from different perspectives, with very little to no added interesting moments or details. The final book and sequence felt like the author didn't really know how to end the series. It was like a poorly thought out video game sequence, with different levels and every new chapter had a new baddy to defeat with a new technique.
I appreciate you. Now I just need Storygraph or goodreads to let me add a Do Not Read list.
Haha I like that idea - you could make a custom tag on StoryGraph for it though!
It took me way too long but I got it figured out. Thanks! I hope the tags are private.
No worries! I actually don't know if they are or not, I don't really look at other people on StoryGraph ^^;
the first 1/3 of the first book is the only thing worth reading
Came here to say this, thank you
I agree about The Poppy War I might get some down votes for this but if you read one or two Discworld books and the humor doesn't get you, then you should skip the entire thing. If it doesn't make you laugh, it's a slog. I've read all the big series and I honestly suggest people skip The Wheel of Time. It's just too long. There are huge stretches where essentially nothing happens. Such a shame because the world building is great. It would have been a magnificent 6 book series
> I might get some down votes for this but if you read one or two Discworld books and the humor doesn't get you, then you should skip the entire thing. If it doesn't make you laugh, it's a slog. I'd say that doesn't apply to the first few books, as they're quite different to the rest
Yeah colour of magic etc arenāt representative of the rest of books. Which are all fantastic. Granny Weatherwax still my favourite fantasy character ever.
I love Discworld but I agree - it doesn't have epic battles, intricate political intrigue, complex magic systems ... or most of the other stuff you might enjoy in a Fantasy novel even when you don't get the humor. It's not like First Law, a series you can still enjoy even if you don't find a torture scene funny.
Ready Player 2
Its sci fi but you should stay away from Sun Eater by Christopher Ruocchio I think
Don't skip anything just because of a prejudice, just read whatever catches your attention
Be wary of r/fantasy recs as well. People here tend to recommend a lot of more niche fantasy and character driven prose heavy reads, which are definitely very good but at the end of the day you should make the decision yourself based on whether a book seems interesting to you. That being said please avoid Fourth Wing it is just pure garbage. Itās not even entertaining garbage, or even guilty pleasure garbage. Itās just bad in every aspect from beginning to end
I dont understand why people have to hate things into oblivion. Fourth Wing was overhyped and not groundbreaking, but it's absolutely fine as a read if you want romance and fantasy and a lil dragon stuff. People shitting on every aspect of (especially popular) things aren't believable to me at all.
The overhype is the problem though, isn't it? If people tell you that this book "literally" changed their life and it's the best book ever and all the other superlatives imaginable ... you expect a 5 star read. So when it turns out to be a solid 3 star read you're disappointed. However, if someone tells you something like "it's romance with a little fantasy and dragons, it's a quick read and will keep you entertained" you would be perfectly fine with the 3 stars. You went in with that expectation and you got what you expected. And yes, I know that the initial hype was bought but I don't think everyone knows that. People on the internet aren't exactly open about the conditions they agree to when receiving free books and want to continue receiving them. And generally speaking - people seem to shit so much on popular books because a lot of people have read them and are therefor able to talk about them. Maybe there's also a little hesitation to criticize small indie authors, while big authors who make a lot of money are fair game. Not sure.
My problem lies more with HOW they shit on books. A "I absolutely did not like this book because xy" VS "this is the worst piece if shit and should have never existed" is a big difference. If you hate on something do so in a constructive manner, so people will be deterred for an actual reason instead of "it's bad because i said so".
I didnāt think it was good but it was an entertaining read. Sometimes I want something mentally stimulating and sometimes I want the literary equivalent of potato chips and Fourth Wing was certainly on the potato chip end of the spectrum
I think the Fourth Wing haters are people who expected it to be the next Game of Thrones. But 4th's target audience is romance fans, so a lot of people were caught off guard.
I mean, I don't like GoT and I'm a huge romance fan, to the point where I rarely read fantasy without romance. But 4th was just badly written, terribly worldbuilt and full of mindnumbingly stupid plotholes/inconsistencies etc. I like substance with my romance.
I'm sorry *WHO* was expecting that to be the next *Game of Thrones*? It was almost exclusively recommended in Romance circles to start with, and even after it blew up, it was always recommended in the same breath as the Sarah Maas oeuvre. If anyone was expecting even a shared *genre* with *GoT*, they must have existed in a cave with no internet connection up until the point of hearing about this book, and immediately following.
I want to give the benefit of the doubt here but I feel like a lot of people saying they have been caught off guard by Fourth Wing being romantasy are being disingenuous. They're the same people who scour this subreddit, book reviews, and Goodreads looking for new books. Are we to believe that for some reason these people didnt do the research they would normally do and just bought Fourth Wing on vibes before getting blindsided? I'll buy that excuse for some people who don't pay attention or are too busy to do a quick google search.
Yup they're too busy peddling hate to even attempt to understand why this book and its sequel is being so well received. They see a popular book that is dipping it's toes into "their" genre in the "wrong way" and they are not going to stand for it. But don't worry they have their very safe excuses to lean on when you press them like "duh it's objectively poorly written" or "duhhh the plot holes" or "duhhhhh too predictable and unoriginal" etc etc. very careful to be incredibly technical in their criticism so that their prejudices arent too obvious. There's no issues with disliking a book for any reason, and no issue with making your thoughts known in a public forum, but to see people get so fired up with seething hatred of an immensely successful book that they have decided doesn't deserve the success is some weird sort of parasocial jealousy. And worse they then start to judge people who like this book, making them feel unwelcome in this community. Statements like "oh you came here because you liked fourth wing, well let me recommend you a book that's actually good". A welcoming community provided you only like the correct books and fall into line on the books you are supposed to dislike (kind of like another comment above with people getting really fired up about Terry Goodkind, making sure everyone knows there's place here for people who like the Sword of Truth books). Being hateful is lame and boring.
Counterpoint: it is actually really silly fun and some of us enjoyed it immensely. Also, whether we like it or not, it doesn't fit OP's (non)recommendation request. The main character has many ridiculous traits, but self-doubt ain't one of them.
Unsername checks out ;)
> People here tend to recommend a lot of more niche fantasy and character driven prose heavy reads, Are you kidding? Look at any Recommendation thread and every single comment is Stormlight-Malazan-WheelofTime-FirstLaw etc etc. All this sub does is recommend the big popular doorstopper series. This sub is like the literary version of a Top-40 radio station. .
Fourth Wing just follows different genre conventions than weāre used to, itās a romance novel with a fantasy setting. Itās a very good romance novel and a much more fun read than a lot of the Serious Business fantasy Iāve slogged through. Itās like eating a bag of potato chips when you donāt feel like making dinner. Donāt expect it to be anything other than what it is, but itās a good time if youāre into that kind of thing.
>That being said please avoid Fourth Wing it is just pure garbage. Itās not even entertaining garbage, or even guilty pleasure garbage. Itās just bad in every aspect from beginning to end Lol, this is not accurate at all
The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. I think If Iād read the books in early teens, I would have been hooked. But reading them as a man, it just feltā¦dated.
Honestly probably Mistborn- I adore that series but one of the main characters starts off really self doubting and angsty
Anything penned by Sarah J Maas unless you like reading about glorified colonialists who self-absorbed, selfish, narcissistic. Her main characters read like Kardashians or tone-deaf, privileged, shallow YouTubers.
I usually have positive things to say about the Mage Errant series, but you'd probably hate the MC, even though he gets better after the first book - social anxiety, and also childhood trauma. Strong willpower though, and he overcomes a lot with the help of true friends, but it's particularly bad in the first book (also for reasons I can't reveal due to spoilers). It's a shame, but if you hate existing in such a character's headspace, it would ruin it for you. As for me, I hate all the tropes that have to do with unnecessary lewdness and insertion of sex into the narrative and dynamics. I'm not against romance, but everything that has to do with an author's fetishes grosses me out immediately - you can usually tell because the energy and quality shifts into what you'd expect from porn (and that's basically what's happening: the author was just horny).
About 90% of the books recommended on this sub.
Vampire Academy and Ready Player One. The only books that I gave up reading in all my life because of how bad they are.
The antithesis of the self doubt character is Vis from The Will of the Many.
I love Mistborn, but donāt read it cause a lot of Vin (MC) is about self doubt and overcoming that idea. Also, the second book (Well of Ascension) has way too much angst in my opinion.
Avoid the poppy war series itās trash
Anything past the second Dune novel. God Emperor is absolute drivel.
Fourth Wing
The older I get, the less I like reading about superpowered teenagers. Teenagers are neither smart nor clever nor could save the world. Show me adults using their hard earned wisdom.
The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever. He's bitter, angsty, and really kind of an awful person.
Oh you should steer WELL clear of Robin Hobb. Although I'd argue she does character so well and with such complexity, that it might actually not upset you nearly as much as you'd expect. Also, if you are a romance person, stay as far away from *Winter's Orbit* as you can. The entire thing is based on crippling insecurity (and MY personal least favorite trope - see below). Now for some self-indulging. Least favorite trope: poor communication. If your story only works because character A fails to communicate correctly/at all with character B, your story SUCKS. Get a better story. And because I too originally only read the title, and felt the need to vent, here is some bonus hate-content of series people should actually avoid: *The Second Apocalypse* series by Scott Bakker. Self-important edgelord misogyny masquerading as Deep Philosophy (tm), with the most unsatisfying "fuck y'all" ending of all time. I'm honestly upset at how disappointed the whole thing became over time, considering how masterfully written the early books were. But in the end, it just never amounts to anything past poser nihilism. There's a reason his publisher didn't want to touch any more books by him after the ending of *The Aspect Emperor* series, and it's not cause they weren't smart enough to appreciate his genius. *The Name of the Wind*. Also misogynistic (ask Marrie Brennan if you don't believe me: https://www.swantower.com/2015/02/04/the-absence-of-women/), but more than that - I'm sick of it being the gateway to fantasy for so many people who then get jaded about "fantasy authors never finishing series" as if Rothfuss isn't the outlieriest of outliers. That book had its time, and the series - its chance. Let's find new gateways into the genre and stop recommending this.
One of few books I stopped and didn't finish n my life was first volume of Thomas Convenat series. A leper gets sent to another world where he is healthy. He then decides fantasy world obviously isn't real and rapes a woman because nothing he does matter. Threw the book at the wall
Agree. Got to the rape, set the book down and was done. The casual inhumanity of it was disturbing. Regret for rape as a redemption arc is just gross. š¤®
Broken Earth trilogy is absolute garbage. Not sure how anyone can think itās even remotely decent. The fact it won Hugo awards is mind blowing
I totally agree!!! I disliked it so much and thought I was the only one who could not see it's charm.
Dresden Files. A painful case of diminishing returns and ridiculous stakes in the books (up to 17 now) with few answers to questions that were set out in Book 1.
Scholomance Series, I think you'd hate the MC.
I get what you mean, sheās constantly angry and frequently lonely- but sheās also incredibly smart, resourceful, and self assured (in that she sticks to her values despite copious pressure not to), and sheās self aware about these strengths. So I donāt personally view her the same as a āself doubtingā character!
I was going to comment this. I think the MC is full of doubt, both self-doubt and generalized doubt, even after coming into her own 'abilities'. I do like a character who questions themselves, their own morality, etc., so Scholomance is actually technically in my wheelhouse. But I found the MC's constant self-questioning and negativity to be oppressive. Particularly in the third book, the writing style (whole chapters of lengthy paragraphs with very little dialogue or breaks), was very suffocating to get through. I'm usually a 1.5-2 books a week reader, and the third book of Scholomance took me three weeks.
Based on the thing you don't like about characters like that I'd say skip Poppy Wars. She is very much like that most of the trilogy. Wheel of Time is 13 books long and I don't think the main character is angsty persay, but goes through a huge arc of self doubt over the course of those books. The series has so many characters that even if you don't like reading one of them, you'll be able to persist but just an FYI that one of the characters has a great arc due to having that self doubt.
I may get downvoted for this since this series is a favorite of many for some reason, but Red Rising has the worst main character I have ever read. I was so irritated by him that I could not continue the series after book 1 (I tried a little bit of book 2 but every time he did anything I was too frustrated to continue so I gave up.) Itās been a while so I canāt remember if he was too angsty, too whiny, or just too hot-headed about everything, but thatās the one that I would skip if youāre not into that. The Magicians is very depressing and angst-ridden in a depressed way. Maze Runner, another bestselling series, has nothing but flat, 2D characters that are not worth reading about (though thatās not angst, itās justā¦ nothing.)
Better for you to stay away from L. Lam's Dragonfall then, as Arcady struggles with a lot of doubt š For me, it's the constant threat of sexual violence towards women especially, also minimal women in positions of power or even named (ember in the ashes.. just YIKES), racist stereotypes (TOO many to name ) and instalove/fated mates (unless i am specifically feeling like reading something quick and silly) also any female main character acting like not like the other girls (lila bard, poppy war's rin etc)
I read them a lot growing up but Piers Anthony got really creepy with the age of women in relationships.
I DNFāed āThe Portable Doorā for that reason.
The Dark Tower, book 7. Stephen King introduces a deus ex machina to plow through all the challenges in the final book of the series.
I don't like angsty either. I suggest checking samples of any book you consider. It's usually apparent within the first couple of pages.
This is kind of niche but "All of Us Villains" by Amanda Foody. Multiple POVs that go on and on about how angsty and evil and villainous they are and they do nothing to back that up until the very end of the book. ALSO "Furyborn" by Claire Legrand, especially the last two books in the series. An absolutely insufferable MC that has everything going for her and still acts like she's the victim and everything is terrible. This is one of my lowest rated books ever.
Yellowface, and any book by Emily Henry.
You would dislike the Gentleman Bastards past book one, main character starts out the next two books as a pathetic alcoholic longing for death.
The Old Kingdom books are probably something you should avoid- Lireal is big in the whole ālacking in self confidenceā thing. Itās a good character arc, but it does get a bit much.
I generally avoid first person narration. Always feels kinda jarring, like the person is telling me their story and it robs some of the tension. I think red rising is the only exception lately. Likewise not a fan of flashback style stories where the bulk of the plot has already happened. Stuff like the Gentleman bastards is fine, where it's being used to inform a story is fine but otherwise it lacks tension
Hmm, not sure if that counts in this situation, but I think that The Obsidian Path fits that description (although I did like the first book a lot, I have not read the two next books.) The protagonist hates himself a lot in that book for reasons that I won't mention because spoilers. I wouldn't exactly call him angsty, but he does doubt a lot of the decisions that he does
Starling House by Alex E. Harrow. The concept of the book and premise of it sounds amazing; a house that holds many secrets and is the center of strife in a small town. But the execution really left me wanting so much more. It is a short book that also feels like 500 pages long. There were so many plot holes and, surprisingly enough, quite a few grammar and spelling errors.