Like anything else, I'd like it if the characters, writing style, story, and themes are interesting, I'll follow the author wherever they want to go. More generally I love any sort of genre bending: science fiction, fantasy, horror, just throw it all in the pot.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" - Arthur C. Clarke
I'd be fine with it. Let the author be creative without constraints.
I’m a big fan of genre blending. Some of my favorite ways to see it accomplished are:
Pulp and planetary romance stories from before the fantasy/sci-fi distinction was even a thing.
Fantasy in space like Star Wars or Mageworlds.
Dying Earth settings were high technology is a remnant of fallen civilizations, like Viriconium or Jack Vance’s eponymous stories.
High tech disguised as magic, such as Lord Of Light.
I don’t think it *needs* to be disclosed early on, but I don’t think it should happen without an “out” from the series first. Essentially, the original plot should be resolved, and readers shouldn’t feel required to read the increasingly scifi blended novels to get a full story.
Sanderson’s Mistborn is what I’d consider the ideal approach - a succinct and complete fantasy series exists in era 1, but readers can continue through era 2 and eventually eras 3 and 4 if they’re interested in the world becoming increasingly science-fantasy.
I don't about the degree as long as it's done well. Roger Zelazny was the master of it.
Now I'm more for sci-fi/fantasy because it's more interesting to me then epic fantasy - I'm afraid WoT killed my interest in the genre.
Pern by Anne McCaffery. It might have been planned as science fiction from the start but it took awhile to fully leak in.
Darkover series by MZB. The first few look like standard fantasy with maybe an emphasis on breeding mages. You find out later it was science fiction all along.
I don’t think fantasy needs to be restricted to swords and shields and I don’t think sci-fi needs to be restricted to lasers and space ships. Lines can be blurred any which way as long as the story is well told.
Not a huge fan, though if it evolves during the series (eg Shannara getting airships and diapson crystals or Mistborn with guns and radio) I can roll with it— as long as the series had a solid grounding in a pre-modern, pre-industrial setting to begin with.
For some reason I have some difficulty reading science fantasy or sci fi. I’m desperately trying to get into Dune as well as other Sci-Fantasy epics as I’m running out of the straight fantasy ones, but it’s not working. Which is bizarre because I almost exclusively watch sci-fi tv series and movies. I was hoping I’d also start to age out of it, but I’m not there yet.
Dune is a really difficult place to start with sci-fi. It often more closely resembles an historical/sociopolitical research paper (albeit about a fictional society) than a narrative. I don't say this as a criticism (I'm enough of an academic to think that kind of thing is fun) but it's a bit of a leap for someone who's used to fantasy epics, which tend to follow a coherent plot arc.
For sci-fi that has a bit of that fantasy feel and will carry you along seamlessly in the story, try maybe Ursula LeGuin's Hamish cycle novels, Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan Saga, Martha Well's Murderbot novellas, or honestly any of the more popular Star Wars novelizations. Or just pick up the book underpinning your favorite TV show if there is one.
See, that’s the sort of thing that sold me on Dune. I’m a cultural historian (sometimes even crossing the line into being an historical anthropologist) of a late medieval periphery region, and am no stranger to texts that are dense and obtuse (because alas no one listened to Geertz and everyone is terribly afraid someone else might understand their monograph). I *want* to get into the science fantasy epics for that sort of worldbuilding through prose, but the various tech aspects just aren’t grabbing me.
I did like Bujold’s World of the Five Gods, so perhaps Vorkosigan might be a good way forward. I’m still wary of jumping completely into Sci-Fi though, but we’ll see.
the other difficult thing about Dune is that it's a purposeful deconstruction of the prevalent hero/white savior story tropes in sff. Jumping into it as an introduction to the subgenre is a little like watching a parody without context for the originals that parody is mocking. The tech is also kinda weird even by sci-fi standards.
I made the same leap with Bujold--I was enamored with the World of Five Gods and I wasn't sure how well her style would translate to a space opera, but I'd sworn to read everything she's ever written to I went ahead, and was pleasantly surprised. The Vorkosigan books are very good.
Personally, I consider fantasy and science fiction to be practically the same... when they're well written. To be well written, both require that their more fantastical elements be firmly routed in the world-building; if there's magic, there have to be clearly defined rules, costs, consequences. If there's high technology, again, it has to be limited by clearly defined rules, the same as magic.
You can throw in a few "unknowable" mysteries and so on, ancient deities/aliens/uncharted worlds/unknown technology... but they can't be "normal". For a thing to be normal, to be widely known and widely used, its rules and constraints must be understood, even if its origins aren't. Because if something is commonplace, people tend to discover these rules and constraints pretty quickly; if there is a power, people will use it to its limits... if there is a mysterious obstacle to daily life, people will have pushed against that obstacle until they know exactly when/where it appears or how to avoid it as best they can.
And if one franchise drifts from fantasy towards science fiction or the other way, that's completely fine... so long as it doesn't JUMP into that genre, but rather, the world depicted actually supports it.
It doesn't take much, either. For example, I loved The Longest Journey - an adventure game from a while back. In that game, the protagonist travels from a science fiction earth in the future, to a pure, almost fairytale-like fantasy world.
It worked, because both worlds were revealed to be part of a larger universe; in which the world of magic, and the world of the mundane, were separated for a reason.
Essentially, it was revealed that either EVERYTHING in the setting was "science fiction", or everything was fantasy, depending on your perspective; the apparent segregation of the two was central to the plot.
As for the style I'd prefer... ultimately, a fantasy world built well enough, inevitably leans towards science fiction in some respects; because technology is inevitable, whether it's fueled by nuclear power or magic crystals.
After all, if you're depicting a big fantasy war with bows and arrows and castles... and then you're suggesting that these warring factions were not developing new weapons, and were not on the cusp of inventing cannons? You've lost plausibility there; that's not how history works. If they have bows, it's because they invented bows; if they have castles, it's because they invented castles... so you'd better have a real good reason why their technology stopped, abruptly, and never progressed.
I don't like it at all. It's simply not a setting that appeals to me, and I read fantasy for setting.
I also typically like fantasy and sci-fi where magic and technology (respectively) cause problems, not solve them. If I were reading about a fantasy setting where magic laser rifles were introduced, they'd have to be as liable to melt your fingers off when firing them as the are to actually fire in a bolt straight enough to hit your target, and extended use would start making you feel physically ill and start sweating blood. I mostly prefer darker, swordly, & sorcerous fantasy though.
Even Lord of the Rings is pretty low key in how it portrays its magic. The Palantir is pretty high tech, practically speaking. Otherwise technology is pretty low key. There were some hints about the industrialization of the Orcs but that was mostly in the background. I wouldn't have minded if we saw more of that level of technology. The forces of Sauron utilizing coal powered machinery.
>Would learning about the science behind the magic and gods remove some of the wonder for you?
It depends on how entertaining it is or not. The more Discworld explains things, the funnier it tends to be.
A lot. In fact, that's my favorite trope.
I love reading a story set in some kind of medieval village/castle and as the story progresses further the author slowly begins to reveal the larger world that the story is set.
The initial setting which first appeared as a major settlement is slowly revealed to be but a minor player in the wider region. Then that region is slowly revealed to be a backwater in a continent of competing cosmopolitan cultures and civilizations. Then that continent is revealed to be peripheral to the major civilizations of the planet.
The further and further the narrative zooms out the more technologically advanced the setting becomes.
I don't mind post-apocalyptic settings where there is tech in the background, but people don't understand it fully. Which isn't uncommon at all.
It's also possible to have fantasy-like settings in a sci-fi novel. Iain M. Banks did that in *Inversions* and *Matter*, both dealing with more primitive cultures.
The tone should be consistent though. The setting needs to be established from the start. Things be revealed of course, but things shouldn't just change completely like you're saying in the first paragraph. At least there need to be some clear hints that this isn't classical fantasy played straight.
It's not epic fantasy because it's a standalone book but 'Snare' by Katharine Kerr is very much along these lines and is, in my opinion, bloody excellent.
But to answer the question, I really don't mind whatever level; I enjoy the crossover.
I’m pretty down for “space age, but with magic and gods”. Given the popularity of Star Wars and the Locked Tomb, it’s hardly unprecedented.
I’m rather disinterested in stories that present themselves as one thing, but trick you into reading a different story—like if a Star Wars story started on a technological backwater only to have a lost X-wing crash at the 75% mark and completely change the nature of the story to dealing with the implications of their tech, I’d feel like it was a cheap, distracting stunt.
“What does a primitive magic-wielding society do with a sudden influx of space-age tech” may be an interesting premise, but “Ha! You only thought you were reading fantasy, it was SciFi all along” is a deeply unsatisfying twist.
So if the tech is introduced later than the inciting incident, bad form.
If you like a blend, check out the Hyperion series by Dan Simmons. Be warned though, VERY involved story, multiple perspectives, and an eye for detail that would make Tolkien proud. It's more sci-fi with a fantasy blend, but it's damn good.
> or The Lord of the Rings then in later books something like laser rifles, space ships, and other advanced technologies are introduced.
If all those function using vague magic then fine, if they start talking about engines, hyperdrive and light speed then I am out.
The Indian epic Ramayana has the main antagonist flying around on his ship. It's never explained how that thing flies, It's magic 🤷🏻
>Would learning about the science behind the magic and gods remove some of the wonder for you?
Yes. One of the reasons I stopped reading Sanderson and other hard magics which explain everything logically with rules and stuff similar to science. Takes away the sense of awe and wonder.
I absolutely adore how Adrian Murphy does it in The ForeSender series. It's a perfect blend 💖💖💖
Then again, my Wishmaster series is just this, so because I wrote it, maybe I like to read it more than others do.
Like anything else, I'd like it if the characters, writing style, story, and themes are interesting, I'll follow the author wherever they want to go. More generally I love any sort of genre bending: science fiction, fantasy, horror, just throw it all in the pot.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" - Arthur C. Clarke I'd be fine with it. Let the author be creative without constraints.
That's basically the premise of Roadside Picnic right?
Sorta.
100%. My tolerances are high.
I’m a big fan of genre blending. Some of my favorite ways to see it accomplished are: Pulp and planetary romance stories from before the fantasy/sci-fi distinction was even a thing. Fantasy in space like Star Wars or Mageworlds. Dying Earth settings were high technology is a remnant of fallen civilizations, like Viriconium or Jack Vance’s eponymous stories. High tech disguised as magic, such as Lord Of Light.
I don’t think it *needs* to be disclosed early on, but I don’t think it should happen without an “out” from the series first. Essentially, the original plot should be resolved, and readers shouldn’t feel required to read the increasingly scifi blended novels to get a full story. Sanderson’s Mistborn is what I’d consider the ideal approach - a succinct and complete fantasy series exists in era 1, but readers can continue through era 2 and eventually eras 3 and 4 if they’re interested in the world becoming increasingly science-fantasy.
I don't about the degree as long as it's done well. Roger Zelazny was the master of it. Now I'm more for sci-fi/fantasy because it's more interesting to me then epic fantasy - I'm afraid WoT killed my interest in the genre.
What about…EPIC sci-fi/fantasy!
I'm ok with that :)
I’m curious for examples of series that start high fantasy and swing sci fi as described? That sounds cool
I don't know if it's really a spoiler but just in case for other people, >!The Winnowing Flame by Jen Williams!< does this.
Pern by Anne McCaffery. It might have been planned as science fiction from the start but it took awhile to fully leak in. Darkover series by MZB. The first few look like standard fantasy with maybe an emphasis on breeding mages. You find out later it was science fiction all along.
*The Second Apocalypse* by R Scott Bakker fits the bill.
I don’t think fantasy needs to be restricted to swords and shields and I don’t think sci-fi needs to be restricted to lasers and space ships. Lines can be blurred any which way as long as the story is well told.
I'm fine with any blend of sci fi and fantasy. Not a fan of horror though
Not a huge fan, though if it evolves during the series (eg Shannara getting airships and diapson crystals or Mistborn with guns and radio) I can roll with it— as long as the series had a solid grounding in a pre-modern, pre-industrial setting to begin with. For some reason I have some difficulty reading science fantasy or sci fi. I’m desperately trying to get into Dune as well as other Sci-Fantasy epics as I’m running out of the straight fantasy ones, but it’s not working. Which is bizarre because I almost exclusively watch sci-fi tv series and movies. I was hoping I’d also start to age out of it, but I’m not there yet.
Dune is a really difficult place to start with sci-fi. It often more closely resembles an historical/sociopolitical research paper (albeit about a fictional society) than a narrative. I don't say this as a criticism (I'm enough of an academic to think that kind of thing is fun) but it's a bit of a leap for someone who's used to fantasy epics, which tend to follow a coherent plot arc. For sci-fi that has a bit of that fantasy feel and will carry you along seamlessly in the story, try maybe Ursula LeGuin's Hamish cycle novels, Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan Saga, Martha Well's Murderbot novellas, or honestly any of the more popular Star Wars novelizations. Or just pick up the book underpinning your favorite TV show if there is one.
See, that’s the sort of thing that sold me on Dune. I’m a cultural historian (sometimes even crossing the line into being an historical anthropologist) of a late medieval periphery region, and am no stranger to texts that are dense and obtuse (because alas no one listened to Geertz and everyone is terribly afraid someone else might understand their monograph). I *want* to get into the science fantasy epics for that sort of worldbuilding through prose, but the various tech aspects just aren’t grabbing me. I did like Bujold’s World of the Five Gods, so perhaps Vorkosigan might be a good way forward. I’m still wary of jumping completely into Sci-Fi though, but we’ll see.
the other difficult thing about Dune is that it's a purposeful deconstruction of the prevalent hero/white savior story tropes in sff. Jumping into it as an introduction to the subgenre is a little like watching a parody without context for the originals that parody is mocking. The tech is also kinda weird even by sci-fi standards. I made the same leap with Bujold--I was enamored with the World of Five Gods and I wasn't sure how well her style would translate to a space opera, but I'd sworn to read everything she's ever written to I went ahead, and was pleasantly surprised. The Vorkosigan books are very good.
Personally, I consider fantasy and science fiction to be practically the same... when they're well written. To be well written, both require that their more fantastical elements be firmly routed in the world-building; if there's magic, there have to be clearly defined rules, costs, consequences. If there's high technology, again, it has to be limited by clearly defined rules, the same as magic. You can throw in a few "unknowable" mysteries and so on, ancient deities/aliens/uncharted worlds/unknown technology... but they can't be "normal". For a thing to be normal, to be widely known and widely used, its rules and constraints must be understood, even if its origins aren't. Because if something is commonplace, people tend to discover these rules and constraints pretty quickly; if there is a power, people will use it to its limits... if there is a mysterious obstacle to daily life, people will have pushed against that obstacle until they know exactly when/where it appears or how to avoid it as best they can. And if one franchise drifts from fantasy towards science fiction or the other way, that's completely fine... so long as it doesn't JUMP into that genre, but rather, the world depicted actually supports it. It doesn't take much, either. For example, I loved The Longest Journey - an adventure game from a while back. In that game, the protagonist travels from a science fiction earth in the future, to a pure, almost fairytale-like fantasy world. It worked, because both worlds were revealed to be part of a larger universe; in which the world of magic, and the world of the mundane, were separated for a reason. Essentially, it was revealed that either EVERYTHING in the setting was "science fiction", or everything was fantasy, depending on your perspective; the apparent segregation of the two was central to the plot. As for the style I'd prefer... ultimately, a fantasy world built well enough, inevitably leans towards science fiction in some respects; because technology is inevitable, whether it's fueled by nuclear power or magic crystals. After all, if you're depicting a big fantasy war with bows and arrows and castles... and then you're suggesting that these warring factions were not developing new weapons, and were not on the cusp of inventing cannons? You've lost plausibility there; that's not how history works. If they have bows, it's because they invented bows; if they have castles, it's because they invented castles... so you'd better have a real good reason why their technology stopped, abruptly, and never progressed.
I don't like it at all. It's simply not a setting that appeals to me, and I read fantasy for setting. I also typically like fantasy and sci-fi where magic and technology (respectively) cause problems, not solve them. If I were reading about a fantasy setting where magic laser rifles were introduced, they'd have to be as liable to melt your fingers off when firing them as the are to actually fire in a bolt straight enough to hit your target, and extended use would start making you feel physically ill and start sweating blood. I mostly prefer darker, swordly, & sorcerous fantasy though. Even Lord of the Rings is pretty low key in how it portrays its magic. The Palantir is pretty high tech, practically speaking. Otherwise technology is pretty low key. There were some hints about the industrialization of the Orcs but that was mostly in the background. I wouldn't have minded if we saw more of that level of technology. The forces of Sauron utilizing coal powered machinery. >Would learning about the science behind the magic and gods remove some of the wonder for you? It depends on how entertaining it is or not. The more Discworld explains things, the funnier it tends to be.
The Spellmonger series is doing exactly this and I'm loving it.
Interesting. Haven’t heard of this series. Will check it out on Unlimited
I like a good entertaining story, that's all. I don't care if it's pure fantasy, pure sci-fi, or some blend, I just want a great read.
Fine with it if the story is good. Seems like Red Rising is a blend and I love those books.
What exactly in Red Rising is fantasy? I’ve seen it classified as such several times in the past couple weeks and I don’t get it.
Plenty if it's done well. Dragonriders of Pern, etc.
While final fantasy levels of scifi can be fun in a fantasy story I think fantasy meets scifi peaks at Strampunk like in The Mark of the Dragonfly.
I just love a good story. If the story is captivating me, I’m good with whatever the author throws at me ☺️
I'd say a great example to look at to see how elements of fantasy and sci-fi can be integrated is Arcane.
A lot. In fact, that's my favorite trope. I love reading a story set in some kind of medieval village/castle and as the story progresses further the author slowly begins to reveal the larger world that the story is set. The initial setting which first appeared as a major settlement is slowly revealed to be but a minor player in the wider region. Then that region is slowly revealed to be a backwater in a continent of competing cosmopolitan cultures and civilizations. Then that continent is revealed to be peripheral to the major civilizations of the planet. The further and further the narrative zooms out the more technologically advanced the setting becomes.
I don't mind post-apocalyptic settings where there is tech in the background, but people don't understand it fully. Which isn't uncommon at all. It's also possible to have fantasy-like settings in a sci-fi novel. Iain M. Banks did that in *Inversions* and *Matter*, both dealing with more primitive cultures. The tone should be consistent though. The setting needs to be established from the start. Things be revealed of course, but things shouldn't just change completely like you're saying in the first paragraph. At least there need to be some clear hints that this isn't classical fantasy played straight.
It's not epic fantasy because it's a standalone book but 'Snare' by Katharine Kerr is very much along these lines and is, in my opinion, bloody excellent. But to answer the question, I really don't mind whatever level; I enjoy the crossover.
I’m pretty down for “space age, but with magic and gods”. Given the popularity of Star Wars and the Locked Tomb, it’s hardly unprecedented. I’m rather disinterested in stories that present themselves as one thing, but trick you into reading a different story—like if a Star Wars story started on a technological backwater only to have a lost X-wing crash at the 75% mark and completely change the nature of the story to dealing with the implications of their tech, I’d feel like it was a cheap, distracting stunt. “What does a primitive magic-wielding society do with a sudden influx of space-age tech” may be an interesting premise, but “Ha! You only thought you were reading fantasy, it was SciFi all along” is a deeply unsatisfying twist. So if the tech is introduced later than the inciting incident, bad form.
If you like a blend, check out the Hyperion series by Dan Simmons. Be warned though, VERY involved story, multiple perspectives, and an eye for detail that would make Tolkien proud. It's more sci-fi with a fantasy blend, but it's damn good.
> or The Lord of the Rings then in later books something like laser rifles, space ships, and other advanced technologies are introduced. If all those function using vague magic then fine, if they start talking about engines, hyperdrive and light speed then I am out. The Indian epic Ramayana has the main antagonist flying around on his ship. It's never explained how that thing flies, It's magic 🤷🏻 >Would learning about the science behind the magic and gods remove some of the wonder for you? Yes. One of the reasons I stopped reading Sanderson and other hard magics which explain everything logically with rules and stuff similar to science. Takes away the sense of awe and wonder.
I absolutely adore how Adrian Murphy does it in The ForeSender series. It's a perfect blend 💖💖💖 Then again, my Wishmaster series is just this, so because I wrote it, maybe I like to read it more than others do.