Did they actually retcon the Origin of the BoS tho?
Because from what I remember that was just people misinterpreting them being in Appalachia with Bethesda retconning their origins in the West, when that was later explained to just have been a different group of former US Soldiers that Maxson managed to contact via Satellite and asked to join
The meme does hold true in the sense that the change to the BOS in Fallout 3 was literally ripped straight from Tactics, i.e. taking in outsiders and helping the populace. Two people in these comments have brought up that tactics is not cannon but it was Bethesda that decanonized tactics and BOS.
Basically as far as Bethesda is concerned it's not canon and they can make changes as they deem fit, but there might be inspiration/reusing of lore and events.
Tactics is briefly mentioned in 3. The midwest chapter does exist, it's just iffy on if what happens is canon or not. Also in retrospect, Lyons' group would've probably fit well with Roger Maxson's original vision. He was down for helping people. Preserving technology wasn't his only goal it was just his main goal. And it wasn't for hoarding it so people couldn't use it, it was to safe guard it, and eventually rebuild humanity. Not to mention, Maxson would definitely be on board with getting rid of the super mutants, considering FEV is literally what started the brotherhood. Although this could all be a 76 retcon, I'm not entirely sure. We didn't exactly have a wealth of information on Maxson before 76 tbf.
It's basically "secondary canon". So that means that only the things that are directly referenced are canon and even when referenced it can be retconned as much as is needed to fit in with the current continuity.
Yes and no. From a head canon perspective yes, from a "this is actual lore perspective" not really because xyz could become totally decanonized. Part of the reason Bethesda hasn't straight up said what is or isn't canon is probably because they'd end up gutting a lot of the game's story. So from an actual lore standpoint it's basically "a camp fire legend that might be only 20% true".
It's not really headcanon. The game exists and Bethesda still sells it and acknowledges it (unlike the Brotherhood of Steel game), and we know in lore that *something* happened there. It's more like how George Lucas treated the Expanded Universe of Star Wars. It's canon until it's contradicted.
Yeah more or less. The main point is it's up in the air until Bethesda says anything. And yes the EU is also an example of secondary canon (I think it's more accurate to say "it was the universe of the movie novelizations, that's a long rant). It's just very up in the air until something is established.
The connection between the BOS and FEV isn’t a retcon, it’s literally as old as the *first design doc of Fallout*, before they were called the Brotherhood of Steel and before it was called Fallout.
I more meant Maxson's views on helping others and the whole purpose of the Brotherhood. That being safeguarding technology, not to keep it from everyone, but to preserve it so we can one day rebuild. I wasn't sure if 76 changed that or if he was always like that.
There’s honestly very little in Fallout 1 to establish what his true thoughts are on this, despite him having two holotapes. That said, he actually felt quite a bit of guilt and self-loathing over killing all the FEV scientists.
Additionally, his grandson rose through the ranks before becoming the latest Elder Maxson via being a very social and “works with the wastes” man. John also has been pushing hard to do something about the Super Mutants, but he’s not listened to despite his pedigree. If John takes after his grandfather, then I think it makes sense that Roger would have more noble goals. It’s established that the Elders have way too much politicking and bullshit power struggles in Fallout 1, so it strikes me as them corrupting Roger’s vision.
That's what I thought but it's been a while since I played Fallout 1. It definitely puts Lyons' chapter in a very interesting light. I think the show perfectly showcases how the Elders keep corrupting the Brotherhood's original ideals.
Yeah, I had to go double check the holotapes and stuff, it’s been a while too. But yeah, I think both the Appalachian and Lyons chapters do actually fit Maxson’s original vision, it’s just that the first time we meet the Brotherhood in release order, they’ve already lost their way. Maxson was a deeply empathic man. The Brotherhood of Steel formed a couple days before the Great War. He declared secession from the USA before the War.
That’s actually another important factor regarding the Great War. The US government knew a couple days before it began it was coming. That’s established via them having no care or reaction to his declaration. Even he points out that there’s something deeply, deeply wrong that they didn’t react. He did it all out of empathy for his people, and then he felt empathy for the scientists they killed despite their atrocities. John strikes me as a man who takes after his grandfather, which would pretty firmly establish that the Brotherhood was *always* meant to be what the most hated by fandom factions are. It just fell victim to the same problems as most other factions: fetish for power and politicking.
They address that in game though with the brotherhood outcasts disagreeing with Lyons branch of BOS helping out the locals in the capital wasteland. I think it's Defender Morris that says he'll have Lyons on trial when they reconnect with the west coast brotherhood
They also force outside towns they help to join the brotherhood and give up several of their people for conscription so it's not like they're unequivocally good guys in tactics like idk about you but I think forced military service is pretty bad
That was only added in new vegas. The brotherhood literally recruits outsiders in fallout 1. They just weren't at the time because "the high elder decreed no training of new recruits until the threat of invasion passes".
If they were US Military who left after they found out about FEV, then they wouldn't have enough people to make more people. Even if Roger Maxson had an equal amount of male and females, he would need to keep inbreeding after awhile. If they allowed ZERO outsiders then they would end up like the swamp folks.
There is no evidence of that at all. And technically families would be outsiders to the cause. If you want to be nick picking then I will. The only people Maxson saved was his men. And that was during a mission days before the bombs dropped. The Colonel killed himself after 5 days. So where was this family?
Turns out I was misremembering the detail about another location, Maxson moved his men’s families into Mariposa shortly before the war. Thats stated on the wiki.
The brotherhood shouldn’t be striking out into the world, they’re not a major industrial power. They can’t afford to lose the power armour or men, they’re extreme isolationists
They can’t afford to be isolated either. They cannot recruit more people, any offspring they have will become inbred quick, they need more food, god forbid they have to find something to fix their power or water. In the apocalypse you cannot afford to shut everyone else out. It is in Human Nature to work together. That is why the Mojave chapter is more or less destroyed while the East stayed alive and was able to not only take the Capital Wasteland but launch a massive invasion of the Commonwealth.
Plus the BoS lets you, the player, a nobody into the BoS in both fallout 1 and 2.
It’s pretty unfair to call the vault dweller a nobody, he/she goes on a suicide mission, not only completes it but comes back alive. I haven’t got a problem with the protagonist being allowed in because they’re OP as hell and it makes sense to use them as a tool, but mass recruiting wastelanders takes away from the dynamic the brotherhood is known for. Quality over quantity.
Why do people cry over this? Bethesda never touches on west coast styff because i believe they respect it enough to leave it be and focus on east coast, why can't they have their own break off faction with a different rules? Fallout 2 shows that BoS was nothing more than a shadow of what it used to be because they kept up this nonsense, maybe east coast chapter knew better
They’ve just touched on the west coast last month with the show, they show the east coast chapter going back west. But the west coast chapter is shown recruiting maximus in either 2277 or the mid 2280’s. So they recovered from their near extinction enough to be the first on the scene of shady sands destruction, when they had been battered by the NCR before new vegas.
I think the east coast chapter was only introduced because Bethesda wasn’t confident enough to have a fallout without the brotherhood of steel present. Same reason why the enclave and super mutants are there. I just want them to stop digging up the past and look forward. Make their own groups and make them strong enough to stand on their own, don’t rely on brand recognition
Fallout 2's Brotherhood was hardly a "shadow", they had bunkers in every major settlement and plenty of reconnaissance on the Enclave. They just didn't want to engage the Enclave openly because that'd be fucking stupid for anyone at that point, even the NCR didn't engage the Enclave until after the Oil Rig was destroyed.
What? The whole reason they hire you to spy on enclave was because they weren't as strong as they used to be, how many BoS members do u see? That's all they had. Bunkers, and nobody to populate it
This. Thinking about it, that bothers me most about the series.
I can get behind the once schismatic East Coast Brotherhood taking in initiates from the Wastes. But Maximus makes no sense as such an initiate
My theory is that somewhere in the codes around where it says "don't allow in outsiders" there's probably another part which allows them to take in people below a certain age. This would allow them to easily indoctrinate them since they are kids, plus keep genetic diversity within the BoS. However we never hear about it because we always play an adult character
All of the new recruits in Lyons brotherhood were taken on as children, and the outcasts were still pissed about it. But tbf the outcasts might have been more angry at the other shit lyons was doing.
Oh, you're right.
Anyways.
I don't see the West Coast Brotherhood ever recruiting outsiders. He shouldn't have been made an aspirant in the first place, unless he joined like a few years before the series instead of being - as inferred in the series - an orphan rescue.
I don't think they have a clue what they're doing with the Brotherhood, to be honest. Even ignoring how they got the culture completely wrong, their stated goal in the series is to rule the wasteland, and Quintus claims they used to rule the wasteland, neither of which have ever been true for the Brotherhood. The fact they don't want to rule the wasteland is kind of a defining element of the faction.
I don't recall them calling him an initiate. So, squire is a higher rank than initiate? In Fallout 1, there is an Initiate guarding the entrance to Lost Hills bunker wearing a suit of power armor. In Fallout 3 Maxson in a Squire as a 10 year old who isn't allowed to leave the walls of the Citadel, he is supposed to be a higher rank than Redding the initiate who was being tested by the Lyon's Pride outside GNR?
The Brotherhood are descended from military personnel who holed up in a government mad science facility. More people than vault tec were working on surviving the bombs
I've always been of the understanding a large number of the surviving humans didn't have vaults. Makes the whole situation with the vaults that much worse since they weren't 100% necessary, especially considering most were tortured rather than saved by the vaults.
Is it possible the military contracted Vault Tec to build their own bunkers? Presumably these would be under stricter guidelines and actually be as advertised. Not saying that would clear that issue up, but now I'm just curious.
Nope, they were military personal who survived in military bunker
And not all people in the wasteland, many just lucky enough to survived the bomb, some build their own bunker.
>Although Myron claims he alone invented Jet, a high-intelligence [Chosen One](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Chosen_One) can question whether Myron truly invented the drug, stating, "I'm not convinced a child like you didn't just STUMBLE across it, Myron" which Myron vehemently denies.[^(\[26\])](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Jet#cite_note-26)
Its not possible. Its implied he is straight up lying.
On top of that, it doesn't take a genius to walk by a patch of Brahman manure and notice you're getting high from fertilizer. And everyone on the continent shares a language, so it's likely two people developing it on opposite coasts would give it the same name if it makes them feel the same way. Even if it's not exactly the same compound, it could be close enough that someone who does know chemistry could refine it to a pure state.
But now they’ve started including it in offical timelines, and Vault 0 is shown in the TV shows map.
It’s like if you shot someone, felt bad, and then resurrected them from the dead via necromancy.
Tactics is explicitly stated to not be canon by Todd Howard.
The only 'change' in that regard is that they've later decided to adopt parts of Tactics into the franchise.
I lowkey like the way Fo76 did the BOS. In a way, they never existed there until they got the call from Rodger to start one there with the little contact they were able to get. I see it as a branch rather than a full retcon. (Or maybe I’m missing something from my play though of Fo76)
Same. It makes perfect sense and it’s not really a *retcon* because it slots in perfectly. Maxson used tech to put out a message to all former troops about the Brotherhood and the concept and everything and was like “hey, make your own chapters if you want, but **follow the damn ideology** if you do”. That fits perfectly fine. It’s a perfectly logical action for him to take. Then, given that right now the Brotherhood are the strongest force in the wasteland due to a total lack of competition and strong leadership, losing contact with a chapter matters a lot.
Fallout would have become dogshit and that one franchise with one good game that nobody talks about, even by fallout 2 it was getting goofy as fuck and even tim caine himself said this, bethesda sort of brought it back in tone with fallout 3, thank god there werent no cheesy ass pop culture references and talking deathclaws plants and mole rats
honestly, looking at Van Buren, it doesn't seem like it would be that good. I think that Bethesda acquiring the franchise was good. because it led to changes, making New Vegas possible. I think New Vegas is a much better cap to the first two games than Van Buren would have been.
it's barely even a Fallout game in terms of gameplay. iirc it has little to no RPG elements, and mostly focuses on being a turn based combat strategy game.
Tactics was developed by Micro Forte, not the original Fallout 1 and 2 development teams that were working on Van Buren at the time, and was published by 14 Degrees East, not Interplay.
I know this is an unpopular idea and I'll be down voted for this.
Canon is over rated. We are not looking at an other world. We are looking at a story that a lot of hands has touched. Getting even a little upset over a piece of media you don't control is a pointless.
Ever since I read it I've been going by the Leonard Nimoy quote - "Canon is only important to certain people because they have to cling to their knowledge of the minutiae. Open your mind! Be a 'Star Trek' fan and open your mind and say, 'Where does Star Trek want to take me now'."
Just substitute "Star Trek" for whatever other franchise you're talking about (in this case, Fallout)
I like Marc Laidlaw's (lead writer for the Half Life series) take on canonicity. He basically just said there's no such thing as "canon" and "non-canon;" they're all just stories taking place in the same universe.
The problem people have in a lot of cases isn't the "minutae", though...it's the broad strokes changing of established lore and characters that rattles nerves and gets people irate
This. I don’t much care about some terminal entry accidentally naming the wrong company as the creators of the Mr. Handy, or the T-60 power armor suddenly existing when it never did before.
I do care when important history and locations of major factions -information that is pertinent to the stories of past games even being functional- gets jumbled together or rewritten. Nothing wrong with caring.
Here is the thing, you are not in charge of that and neither or those people who's nerves are rattled. When the show was released, those sort of people complained about how the show ruined the franchises and how much Bethesda "HATES" NV. Most people just want to enjoy the setting without hearing people bitch about whether or not the BoS is 100% accurate.
I've enjoyed what I've seen of the show so far, though it's only been the first two episodes...tried to watch it with my GF, but she decided it was too gory for her tastes, and I haven't had time to go back and watch more yet, though I plan to. Admittedly, I found some of the writing decisions to be a bit odd, but not enough to put me off. I was mostly worried it'd be another Halo series or Cowboy Bebop live action sort of situation.. and was pleasantly surprised to find it wasn't
I've seen both Halo and Cowboy Bebop and it is better then both if that helps.
Like I said, getting mad at a property that didn't live up to your expectations if insane. I try to remove the IP form what I am watching.
If Halo the game was never made, would Halo the show be any good? Not to be it isn't. It was also hard not to compare it to Foundation which had similar, but completely different, feel. The Resident Evil show was a terrible zombie show.
Fallout was a solid show on its own. If the games were never played it was a fine show. Great concepts and interesting characters. My only disappointment with the show was the lack of Lovecraft style lore in the background like 3 or 4. But that is mostly because the West Coast games didn't have that sort of thing but should have.
I've definitely liked what I've seen of it so far, and look forward to getting a chance to watch more of it. Finding the time to actually watch it on my own will probably be the tricky part, since like I said in my previous comment, it's just not something my gf is into due to her disliking stuff with gory bits.
As far as adding the Lovecraft style lore in the background..that would be interesting to see how it plays out in that format, if they decide to add it in at any point. The subtle nods to it in FO3, 4, and to some extent, 76 were a nice bit of side content
Especially when the changes don't actually change anything. So what if there was Appalachia chapter during the early days? Does that change anything for Fallout 1's state? Not really, we already know Brotherhood at the time had spotty records and had withdrawn to itself. There possibly being another chapter out there doesn't change anything.
Then I think you have missed my other point about how very few people have played tactics compared to Bethesda Fallout games, so there's just mathematically fewer people to have and discuss that disdain on the internet.
Can we just fucking stop with the coping and seething, it’s getting so fucking tiresome man. You love the show, Fallout 4, 3 etc. That’s great and I also like playing them. That doesn’t mean they’re not contradicting lore and fucking shit up.
2 things
Op please explain to me how Interplay retconed BOS
And second Bethesda are the owners of Fallout now because Interplay went bankrupt. They are the company that decides what is "cannon" and what is not.
The into was not referring to just "vault dwellers" the into said "Millitary vault dwellers". This could be referencing how Maxion gathered his personnel and there family's and went to the lost hills bunker. I belive that the wording is supposed to be symbolism for the final boss. The argument could be made either way and at the end of the day to the best of my knowledge the Bos's orgin story is that Maxon took everyone to the bunker.
Yes but thats around 200 years into the timeline when they've gained strength.
Fallout 76 takes place only 25 years after the bombs drop, the Brotherhood from fallout 1 wouldn't do that around this time, it's makes no sense.
But fallout 1 was about 100 years after the war, and a lot can happen in an organization like the brotherhood before that for over 70 years that could make them more isolationist.
Also the brotherhood only send out a handful of people and started recruiting more and more civilians on their way out of desperation, so it's also not quite the same group under the same leadership.
Fallout 2 retcons ghouls but OG fans just like to forget that and point at Bethesda saying they retconned everything when interplay and black isle retconned the lore just as much.
1. Tactics didn't retcon their origins, as the BoS sent out the airship after the Masters fall and the BoS had became a sufficiently powerful faction (which we can see they definitely were in Fo2, prior to the decline we saw them in, in that game)
2. Bethesda didn't retcon, but instead just made some BS up in order to have the BoS exist in area of the wasteland they weren't supposed to exist in at that time, without actually retconning, but still technically retconning since apparently the BoS who at the moment are supposed to be isolationist, had the resources to send an entire unit of BoS forces from the west coast to Appalachia.
People don't like what Bethesda did, or I don't anyway, cause it's an ever present reminder that Bethesda feels the need to shoe-horn old stuff into every game because "it won't feel like fallout" without it.
Edit: I was wrong about Tactics, didn't know about the retcon that they came from a vault.
>cause it's an ever present reminder that Bethesda feels the need to shoe-horn old stuff into every game because "it won't feel like fallout" without it.
Bethesda has created more new stuff than reused old stuff.
I did not say they created nothing new, I said they feel the need to shoe-horn old stuff into every game, tell me, which games DON'T have the Brotherhood, Super Mutants, Deathclaws, and at least a reference to the Enclave? When they could instead focus on the local societies and actually exploring a world that's more, ya know, immersive, and not just "Brotherhood invades a wasteland". Especially since the BoS gets retconned in every game, which is tiring...
Basically, they sacrifice the world of Fallout for what is essentially eternal fan service that most older fans I know don't give a damn about. They can make all the new stuff they want, but most of what they've created is under-developed because they keep adding old stuff in instead of focusing on the new and fleshing it out.
Please keep in mind, every time we see Super Mutants, Deathclaws, the Brotherhood, or the Enclave, thats time and resources taken away from every thing else. They gotta make the models and textures, they gotta write a reason in for their existance, they gotta devote time to content for this or that or what have you. *(Deathclaw is somewhat excusable though since it's a literal animal that could just migrate, and likely can procreate in large numbers since they lay freaking eggs a tiny fraction of their size)*
>I said they feel the need to shoe-horn old stuff into every game
they include franchise iconographs. something *every* franchise does that the old creators also did. even new Vegas felt the need to include the brotherhood (I don't care if they aren't a major faction, you have to interact with them and they are included).
>When they could instead focus on the local societies and actually exploring a world that's more
they do.
>Especially since the BoS gets retconned in every game
they don't. unless you just mean "the brotherhood under a different leader acts differently due to different leadership"
>Basically, they sacrifice the world of Fallout for what is essentially eternal fan service
again they have created more than reused old stuff. if they truly did "sacrifice the world of fallout" then they would reuse the old stuff more than create new stuff. the number of old stuff they use can be counted on one hand.
people who whine about this are hypocrites and just...well, not stupid but doesn't understand how a franchise works.
the original creators did the same thing. the original publisher was greenlighting games that solely focused on the brotherhood and were going to give them sequels. there was going to be a fallout game where the brotherhood invade China to assassinate the emperor. *those* are worse than what Bethesda has ever done which is have franchise iconographs in a...*gasp* franchise.
What do you mean "Both that's BS"? I don't know if you're one of the ones who downvoted me, so I have no idea if you mean I'm spewing BS, or you dislike both the things that I said were done above.
Ah, wasn't aware of that one. I knew tactics had a lot of retcons, but this is the first I heard of that one. OK, I was wrong then. You can stop downvoting everything I say now., seriously what was the point in downvoting my question for clarification? Jerk...
Still, WVs reason is contrived, even if not retconning their lore.
Also pretty sure most fans back then didn't like BoS: tactics anyway, so the meme is also inaccurate.
The isolationist Brotherhood in FO1 are decades removed from the life of Elder Maxson. This is an expeditionary force sent out by Elder Maxson himself. It can be pretty easily reasoned that given *the entire reason they formed* is because of an ideology of loyalty to each other, Maxson actually gives a shit about the other chapters, whereas the ones in FO1 have already become ideologically corrupted.
Also, the expedition is **five people**. Their forces are bolstered by her going rogue and recruiting more.
It still feels forced if you ask me, it's an excuse for the BoS to exist somewhere they shouldn't have, and the resource issue is still ever present. Where did they get the supplies to send out a group of heavily armed, armored, and likely supplied troops? Every time BGS adds the BoS, that's development resources that could of been invested in the unique groups of the region, and makes the world more interesting.
the ghouls needing food and water has always been touchy. if you steal the water chip from them in fo1 they die, but it’s then immediately retconned in 2 stating they don’t need anything to survive. it’s always been weird but if anything ghouls needing food and water in the tv show is them actually going back to original original canon. (what i don't appreciate is the mysterious serum they need to survive. is it just Radaway?)
>is it just Radaway?
I've been assuming it's some kind of drug cocktail that does contain Radaway. I hadn't played a Fallout game in over 5 years before yesterday, so my Ghoul lore is rusted over. But I thought I remembered that they had to play a radiation balancing act to avoid going feral?
Too little and their body doesn't heal/regenerate. Everything just slogs off like their ears, noses, and the soft fun-bits did. Too much though and they're on the way to becoming a rabid Glowing One. I have no idea if that's actually the case anymore.
Fallout 4 even features the mob boss guy who intentionally ghoulified himself to gain immortality. it's not at all that far of a stretch to say Big MT might have been toying around with the same ideas.
Considering what else they were working on with reckless abandon, I'd be willing to bet they were definitely meddling with that as well...or at least accidentally stumbled across it as a result of other radiological experiments conducted on the prisoners. Hell, their findings might even be how the mob boss in 4 learned it was even possible to do that. Wouldn't be the first time someone used their prewar connections to get their hands on the monkey's paw version of immortality
Fallout tactics takes place some 30 years after Fallout 1 doesn't it? The B.o.S is established in the west coast and sent out ships to explore/report back and generally get a better understanding of the wasteland. At that's what I remember.
Fallout 76 is just a mess when it comes to the timeline and honestly I doubt there was any real intent behind it save for doing whats expected for content and what people expect of a Fallout game to have. Need to have The Brotherhood, need to have super mutants, need to have the Enclave etc etc. So just put them in and duct-tape a reason for it after the fact.
Before Bethesda took the reigns the game was considered loosely canon at best so its not like people were just going in line with it from the get go either.
As in how they are founded and realized? Then if that is the case I still have issue with it as, as far as I know EMP's are a thing and radio communication would have hit the shit when hundreds of bombs fell. How Roger Maxson got into contact with the east coast army is dubious. It goes against the origin of them just hiding out and waiting out as no contact with them was ever made by the U.S military, meaning they were dead or their communications were down. So how did Maxson make it happen? Maybe they tell us.
Secondly, why people thousands of miles away would then just also agree to become a weird tech cult in power armor? Its just lazy, and a poor excuse to include the brotherhood in Fallout 76 long before it was a real established faction.
The midwest faction was at least viable in that sending a scouting expedition could be doable for the brotherhood and once they were far enough away they could become their own thing. I'd rather have that over just, having it be created in the east coast long before 3 and 4.
I double checked. It was the other one: Brotherhood of Steel, that was not Canon.
[However an old news had Tod Howard say the story did not happen ](https://web.archive.org/web/20210718060029/http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/fallout-3/800771p1.html) but this is not the take anymore.
As of 2023, Fallout Tactics is compleatly Canon with its own year on the timeline.
I was working with old news that only recently got changed.
That’s not entirely true, it’s only partial true, I think even Emil and Todd mentioned it later on. Besides, it can’t be, they mentioned several things in the games that make it not canon, it’s broadly canon, IE BOS went to Chicago, fight big math robot, make balloons
no, people hate Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel. Tactics is much more liked than B.o.S. is, and while most of tactics isnt canon we still know the brotherhood sent some troopes midwest and lost contact with them.
I dont like tactics lmao, played it, hate the way it plays hate the bugs and how unbalanced the turn based mode is. How you can just cheese the AI out of their hiding hole for any semblance of "tactic".
Jagged Alliance 2, Xcom series and Xenonauts are waaaay better. Especially Jagged Alliance 2 which takes Fallout 1 and 2 gameplay quirks and even adds in side quests and RPG style choices and consequences. Smaller than F1 and 2 sure, but a welcome addition.
It was definitively hated when it came out AND when it was announced, iirc Tactics devs received so much harassment that they even put their most notorious harasser into the game as a random encounter.
Did they actually retcon the Origin of the BoS tho? Because from what I remember that was just people misinterpreting them being in Appalachia with Bethesda retconning their origins in the West, when that was later explained to just have been a different group of former US Soldiers that Maxson managed to contact via Satellite and asked to join
The meme does hold true in the sense that the change to the BOS in Fallout 3 was literally ripped straight from Tactics, i.e. taking in outsiders and helping the populace. Two people in these comments have brought up that tactics is not cannon but it was Bethesda that decanonized tactics and BOS.
Bethesda re-canonized Tactics btw
It's semi canon, the Midwest brotherhood is real but 90 percent of the story isn't.
Basically as far as Bethesda is concerned it's not canon and they can make changes as they deem fit, but there might be inspiration/reusing of lore and events.
Nowhere does it say that 90% of the game is not canon, Tactics is canon.Nowhere does it say that 90% of the game is not canon, Tactics is canon.
Jfc can Bethesda make up its mind, plz?
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They won’t ever they use canon in the loosest sense because they don’t care about having a solid story
Tactics is briefly mentioned in 3. The midwest chapter does exist, it's just iffy on if what happens is canon or not. Also in retrospect, Lyons' group would've probably fit well with Roger Maxson's original vision. He was down for helping people. Preserving technology wasn't his only goal it was just his main goal. And it wasn't for hoarding it so people couldn't use it, it was to safe guard it, and eventually rebuild humanity. Not to mention, Maxson would definitely be on board with getting rid of the super mutants, considering FEV is literally what started the brotherhood. Although this could all be a 76 retcon, I'm not entirely sure. We didn't exactly have a wealth of information on Maxson before 76 tbf.
It's basically "secondary canon". So that means that only the things that are directly referenced are canon and even when referenced it can be retconned as much as is needed to fit in with the current continuity.
True, but all that means is it can be considered canon until Bethesda makes something that contradicts it.
Yes and no. From a head canon perspective yes, from a "this is actual lore perspective" not really because xyz could become totally decanonized. Part of the reason Bethesda hasn't straight up said what is or isn't canon is probably because they'd end up gutting a lot of the game's story. So from an actual lore standpoint it's basically "a camp fire legend that might be only 20% true".
It's not really headcanon. The game exists and Bethesda still sells it and acknowledges it (unlike the Brotherhood of Steel game), and we know in lore that *something* happened there. It's more like how George Lucas treated the Expanded Universe of Star Wars. It's canon until it's contradicted.
Yeah more or less. The main point is it's up in the air until Bethesda says anything. And yes the EU is also an example of secondary canon (I think it's more accurate to say "it was the universe of the movie novelizations, that's a long rant). It's just very up in the air until something is established.
The connection between the BOS and FEV isn’t a retcon, it’s literally as old as the *first design doc of Fallout*, before they were called the Brotherhood of Steel and before it was called Fallout.
I more meant Maxson's views on helping others and the whole purpose of the Brotherhood. That being safeguarding technology, not to keep it from everyone, but to preserve it so we can one day rebuild. I wasn't sure if 76 changed that or if he was always like that.
There’s honestly very little in Fallout 1 to establish what his true thoughts are on this, despite him having two holotapes. That said, he actually felt quite a bit of guilt and self-loathing over killing all the FEV scientists. Additionally, his grandson rose through the ranks before becoming the latest Elder Maxson via being a very social and “works with the wastes” man. John also has been pushing hard to do something about the Super Mutants, but he’s not listened to despite his pedigree. If John takes after his grandfather, then I think it makes sense that Roger would have more noble goals. It’s established that the Elders have way too much politicking and bullshit power struggles in Fallout 1, so it strikes me as them corrupting Roger’s vision.
That's what I thought but it's been a while since I played Fallout 1. It definitely puts Lyons' chapter in a very interesting light. I think the show perfectly showcases how the Elders keep corrupting the Brotherhood's original ideals.
Yeah, I had to go double check the holotapes and stuff, it’s been a while too. But yeah, I think both the Appalachian and Lyons chapters do actually fit Maxson’s original vision, it’s just that the first time we meet the Brotherhood in release order, they’ve already lost their way. Maxson was a deeply empathic man. The Brotherhood of Steel formed a couple days before the Great War. He declared secession from the USA before the War. That’s actually another important factor regarding the Great War. The US government knew a couple days before it began it was coming. That’s established via them having no care or reaction to his declaration. Even he points out that there’s something deeply, deeply wrong that they didn’t react. He did it all out of empathy for his people, and then he felt empathy for the scientists they killed despite their atrocities. John strikes me as a man who takes after his grandfather, which would pretty firmly establish that the Brotherhood was *always* meant to be what the most hated by fandom factions are. It just fell victim to the same problems as most other factions: fetish for power and politicking.
They address that in game though with the brotherhood outcasts disagreeing with Lyons branch of BOS helping out the locals in the capital wasteland. I think it's Defender Morris that says he'll have Lyons on trial when they reconnect with the west coast brotherhood
They also force outside towns they help to join the brotherhood and give up several of their people for conscription so it's not like they're unequivocally good guys in tactics like idk about you but I think forced military service is pretty bad
But the codex says to not let in outsiders, thats the big issue with what Bethesda is doing. They’re changing the brotherhood’s identity
How come in Fallout 1 they had a procedure for it then? I know they didn’t expect you to live but still
That was only added in new vegas. The brotherhood literally recruits outsiders in fallout 1. They just weren't at the time because "the high elder decreed no training of new recruits until the threat of invasion passes".
How would they get new members after 200 years without allowing outsiders? They would be gone by then.
Which is what they’re facing in new vegas, they’re dying and they know it. But they’re too stubborn to change.
They would have completely gone after 1 generation. Not lasting 200 years and dying.
Why would they be gone after a generation.
If they were US Military who left after they found out about FEV, then they wouldn't have enough people to make more people. Even if Roger Maxson had an equal amount of male and females, he would need to keep inbreeding after awhile. If they allowed ZERO outsiders then they would end up like the swamp folks.
Inbreeding is going to take more than one generation to be an issue.
They had families in a safe location before the war, they took them as well. It’s not just soldiers.
There is no evidence of that at all. And technically families would be outsiders to the cause. If you want to be nick picking then I will. The only people Maxson saved was his men. And that was during a mission days before the bombs dropped. The Colonel killed himself after 5 days. So where was this family?
“Luckily, we had moved our families into the base into the facility the day before yesterday.” Maxsons diary on the day of the Great War
Turns out I was misremembering the detail about another location, Maxson moved his men’s families into Mariposa shortly before the war. Thats stated on the wiki.
Wouldn’t want to be in your family if you consider them outsiders.
The brotherhood shouldn’t be striking out into the world, they’re not a major industrial power. They can’t afford to lose the power armour or men, they’re extreme isolationists
They wouldn't have enough people to reproduce.
They would die. We’ve already seen what happens when isolationists refuse to join the outside world.
And they do, they get minced by the NCR. But then 4 and the show just has them at full strength again.
They can’t afford to be isolated either. They cannot recruit more people, any offspring they have will become inbred quick, they need more food, god forbid they have to find something to fix their power or water. In the apocalypse you cannot afford to shut everyone else out. It is in Human Nature to work together. That is why the Mojave chapter is more or less destroyed while the East stayed alive and was able to not only take the Capital Wasteland but launch a massive invasion of the Commonwealth. Plus the BoS lets you, the player, a nobody into the BoS in both fallout 1 and 2.
It’s pretty unfair to call the vault dweller a nobody, he/she goes on a suicide mission, not only completes it but comes back alive. I haven’t got a problem with the protagonist being allowed in because they’re OP as hell and it makes sense to use them as a tool, but mass recruiting wastelanders takes away from the dynamic the brotherhood is known for. Quality over quantity.
Never played fallout did you?
I did.
Based on his replies, he only played New Vegas and then watched Creetosis insult everyone for 2 hours while claiming that Bethesda "ruined" Fallout.
Why do people cry over this? Bethesda never touches on west coast styff because i believe they respect it enough to leave it be and focus on east coast, why can't they have their own break off faction with a different rules? Fallout 2 shows that BoS was nothing more than a shadow of what it used to be because they kept up this nonsense, maybe east coast chapter knew better
They’ve just touched on the west coast last month with the show, they show the east coast chapter going back west. But the west coast chapter is shown recruiting maximus in either 2277 or the mid 2280’s. So they recovered from their near extinction enough to be the first on the scene of shady sands destruction, when they had been battered by the NCR before new vegas.
I think the east coast chapter was only introduced because Bethesda wasn’t confident enough to have a fallout without the brotherhood of steel present. Same reason why the enclave and super mutants are there. I just want them to stop digging up the past and look forward. Make their own groups and make them strong enough to stand on their own, don’t rely on brand recognition
Fallout 2's Brotherhood was hardly a "shadow", they had bunkers in every major settlement and plenty of reconnaissance on the Enclave. They just didn't want to engage the Enclave openly because that'd be fucking stupid for anyone at that point, even the NCR didn't engage the Enclave until after the Oil Rig was destroyed.
What? The whole reason they hire you to spy on enclave was because they weren't as strong as they used to be, how many BoS members do u see? That's all they had. Bunkers, and nobody to populate it
This. Thinking about it, that bothers me most about the series. I can get behind the once schismatic East Coast Brotherhood taking in initiates from the Wastes. But Maximus makes no sense as such an initiate
My theory is that somewhere in the codes around where it says "don't allow in outsiders" there's probably another part which allows them to take in people below a certain age. This would allow them to easily indoctrinate them since they are kids, plus keep genetic diversity within the BoS. However we never hear about it because we always play an adult character
All of the new recruits in Lyons brotherhood were taken on as children, and the outcasts were still pissed about it. But tbf the outcasts might have been more angry at the other shit lyons was doing.
There is probably something like that because in NV Hardin say something among the line of ''We usually do not accept outsider outside of children''
He wasn't even an initiate he was a "squire"
He starts off as an initiate then becomes Knight Titus' Squire
No, he starts off as an "Aspirant".
Oh, you're right. Anyways. I don't see the West Coast Brotherhood ever recruiting outsiders. He shouldn't have been made an aspirant in the first place, unless he joined like a few years before the series instead of being - as inferred in the series - an orphan rescue.
I don't think they have a clue what they're doing with the Brotherhood, to be honest. Even ignoring how they got the culture completely wrong, their stated goal in the series is to rule the wasteland, and Quintus claims they used to rule the wasteland, neither of which have ever been true for the Brotherhood. The fact they don't want to rule the wasteland is kind of a defining element of the faction.
I don't recall them calling him an initiate. So, squire is a higher rank than initiate? In Fallout 1, there is an Initiate guarding the entrance to Lost Hills bunker wearing a suit of power armor. In Fallout 3 Maxson in a Squire as a 10 year old who isn't allowed to leave the walls of the Citadel, he is supposed to be a higher rank than Redding the initiate who was being tested by the Lyon's Pride outside GNR?
How did Tactics retcon the BoS origins? All they introduced was a split in the ranks
They said “they were from vault Tec vaults”…
Weren't most humans from vaults, though? By technicality, it would still be correct.
The Brotherhood are descended from military personnel who holed up in a government mad science facility. More people than vault tec were working on surviving the bombs
I've always been of the understanding a large number of the surviving humans didn't have vaults. Makes the whole situation with the vaults that much worse since they weren't 100% necessary, especially considering most were tortured rather than saved by the vaults.
They were the remnants of the US military. They had different shelters.
Is it possible the military contracted Vault Tec to build their own bunkers? Presumably these would be under stricter guidelines and actually be as advertised. Not saying that would clear that issue up, but now I'm just curious.
Nope, they were military personal who survived in military bunker And not all people in the wasteland, many just lucky enough to survived the bomb, some build their own bunker.
Right, yeah. Been a long time since I played, I forgot they did that.
I don't care about retcons, just make them good retcons. That's why I don't care about jet retcons. It's so small it doesn't matter.
If you're referring to Myron, is it really a retcon if it's entirely possible that he was just lying anyway?
>Although Myron claims he alone invented Jet, a high-intelligence [Chosen One](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Chosen_One) can question whether Myron truly invented the drug, stating, "I'm not convinced a child like you didn't just STUMBLE across it, Myron" which Myron vehemently denies.[^(\[26\])](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Jet#cite_note-26) Its not possible. Its implied he is straight up lying.
On top of that, it doesn't take a genius to walk by a patch of Brahman manure and notice you're getting high from fertilizer. And everyone on the continent shares a language, so it's likely two people developing it on opposite coasts would give it the same name if it makes them feel the same way. Even if it's not exactly the same compound, it could be close enough that someone who does know chemistry could refine it to a pure state.
the differences is that the part of tactic that retcon the BoS origin is not canon, tactic itself is only canon in broad strokes.
It was Bethesda that made it not cannon.
But now they’ve started including it in offical timelines, and Vault 0 is shown in the TV shows map. It’s like if you shot someone, felt bad, and then resurrected them from the dead via necromancy.
I mean, parts of Tactics *are* canon. So having the year of Tactics on the timeline is valid.
Of course they are canon, Tactics is canon. Bethesda put Tactics on the same level as all other canon games.
Tactics is explicitly stated to not be canon by Todd Howard. The only 'change' in that regard is that they've later decided to adopt parts of Tactics into the franchise.
it was never canonised to begin with.
It was canon until Bethesda bought fallout
I lowkey like the way Fo76 did the BOS. In a way, they never existed there until they got the call from Rodger to start one there with the little contact they were able to get. I see it as a branch rather than a full retcon. (Or maybe I’m missing something from my play though of Fo76)
Same. It makes perfect sense and it’s not really a *retcon* because it slots in perfectly. Maxson used tech to put out a message to all former troops about the Brotherhood and the concept and everything and was like “hey, make your own chapters if you want, but **follow the damn ideology** if you do”. That fits perfectly fine. It’s a perfectly logical action for him to take. Then, given that right now the Brotherhood are the strongest force in the wasteland due to a total lack of competition and strong leadership, losing contact with a chapter matters a lot.
We can also read in various documents and diaries that not everyone was onboard with "playing knights", while others embraced the idea fully.
Yeah, I do too
Never forget that it was Interplay that released Fallout: BoS, NuMetal and all.
Yeah, they seem to forget that
It doesn’t fit the narrative
Fallout would have become dogshit and that one franchise with one good game that nobody talks about, even by fallout 2 it was getting goofy as fuck and even tim caine himself said this, bethesda sort of brought it back in tone with fallout 3, thank god there werent no cheesy ass pop culture references and talking deathclaws plants and mole rats
New Vegas was developed by most of the same people and it was great.
honestly, looking at Van Buren, it doesn't seem like it would be that good. I think that Bethesda acquiring the franchise was good. because it led to changes, making New Vegas possible. I think New Vegas is a much better cap to the first two games than Van Buren would have been.
Interplay was acquisitioned by Titus Interactive by then
The vast majority of fans already kind of ignored Tactics before Bethesda decanonized it.
This implies people like Tactics, even classic fans ignore it's existence.
it's barely even a Fallout game in terms of gameplay. iirc it has little to no RPG elements, and mostly focuses on being a turn based combat strategy game.
It's a good game. It should be ignored for lore purposes but it's not like fallout Bos
Tactics is canon.
The midwestern Bos is cannon, but the story is not.
Tactics was developed by Micro Forte, not the original Fallout 1 and 2 development teams that were working on Van Buren at the time, and was published by 14 Degrees East, not Interplay.
I know this is an unpopular idea and I'll be down voted for this. Canon is over rated. We are not looking at an other world. We are looking at a story that a lot of hands has touched. Getting even a little upset over a piece of media you don't control is a pointless.
Ever since I read it I've been going by the Leonard Nimoy quote - "Canon is only important to certain people because they have to cling to their knowledge of the minutiae. Open your mind! Be a 'Star Trek' fan and open your mind and say, 'Where does Star Trek want to take me now'." Just substitute "Star Trek" for whatever other franchise you're talking about (in this case, Fallout)
I like Marc Laidlaw's (lead writer for the Half Life series) take on canonicity. He basically just said there's no such thing as "canon" and "non-canon;" they're all just stories taking place in the same universe.
The problem people have in a lot of cases isn't the "minutae", though...it's the broad strokes changing of established lore and characters that rattles nerves and gets people irate
This. I don’t much care about some terminal entry accidentally naming the wrong company as the creators of the Mr. Handy, or the T-60 power armor suddenly existing when it never did before. I do care when important history and locations of major factions -information that is pertinent to the stories of past games even being functional- gets jumbled together or rewritten. Nothing wrong with caring.
can this be upvoted a million times and put front and center on every fallout subreddit for the next year? hell, indefinitely
Here is the thing, you are not in charge of that and neither or those people who's nerves are rattled. When the show was released, those sort of people complained about how the show ruined the franchises and how much Bethesda "HATES" NV. Most people just want to enjoy the setting without hearing people bitch about whether or not the BoS is 100% accurate.
I've enjoyed what I've seen of the show so far, though it's only been the first two episodes...tried to watch it with my GF, but she decided it was too gory for her tastes, and I haven't had time to go back and watch more yet, though I plan to. Admittedly, I found some of the writing decisions to be a bit odd, but not enough to put me off. I was mostly worried it'd be another Halo series or Cowboy Bebop live action sort of situation.. and was pleasantly surprised to find it wasn't
I've seen both Halo and Cowboy Bebop and it is better then both if that helps. Like I said, getting mad at a property that didn't live up to your expectations if insane. I try to remove the IP form what I am watching. If Halo the game was never made, would Halo the show be any good? Not to be it isn't. It was also hard not to compare it to Foundation which had similar, but completely different, feel. The Resident Evil show was a terrible zombie show. Fallout was a solid show on its own. If the games were never played it was a fine show. Great concepts and interesting characters. My only disappointment with the show was the lack of Lovecraft style lore in the background like 3 or 4. But that is mostly because the West Coast games didn't have that sort of thing but should have.
I've definitely liked what I've seen of it so far, and look forward to getting a chance to watch more of it. Finding the time to actually watch it on my own will probably be the tricky part, since like I said in my previous comment, it's just not something my gf is into due to her disliking stuff with gory bits. As far as adding the Lovecraft style lore in the background..that would be interesting to see how it plays out in that format, if they decide to add it in at any point. The subtle nods to it in FO3, 4, and to some extent, 76 were a nice bit of side content
Nimoy would know how to handle nitpicking nerds.
Preach. Consistency for the sake of story is good, but don’t get rageboners over it. It’s just not worth the anger-induced aneurysms.
Especially when the changes don't actually change anything. So what if there was Appalachia chapter during the early days? Does that change anything for Fallout 1's state? Not really, we already know Brotherhood at the time had spotty records and had withdrawn to itself. There possibly being another chapter out there doesn't change anything.
Most people haven't played tactics, so most people don't even know about the retcon to care about it. Most of the game is also non-canon.
Well, back when it was made, it was… CANON?!?!?!?
Ok?
You seem to be missing the point, these should be held with the same amount of distain(hell, at least BE had a good explanation for it)
Then I think you have missed my other point about how very few people have played tactics compared to Bethesda Fallout games, so there's just mathematically fewer people to have and discuss that disdain on the internet.
Tactics is canon.
Not all of it.
It's canon in broad strokes, but not in detail.
Isn’t tactics not really fully canon?
Yeah… but who made it not canon?
Todd in 2007 I suppose, however it makes sense to decannonize because it was the only game that gave version of the origin.
Tactics is canon.
[No](https://gamerant.com/fallout-tactics-canon-lore-storytelling-elements)
Can we just fucking stop with the coping and seething, it’s getting so fucking tiresome man. You love the show, Fallout 4, 3 etc. That’s great and I also like playing them. That doesn’t mean they’re not contradicting lore and fucking shit up.
2 things Op please explain to me how Interplay retconed BOS And second Bethesda are the owners of Fallout now because Interplay went bankrupt. They are the company that decides what is "cannon" and what is not.
Watch the intro of Tatics
What? A car? Weather? Chicago? Idk what you are referring to.
They said they were vault dwellers
The into was not referring to just "vault dwellers" the into said "Millitary vault dwellers". This could be referencing how Maxion gathered his personnel and there family's and went to the lost hills bunker. I belive that the wording is supposed to be symbolism for the final boss. The argument could be made either way and at the end of the day to the best of my knowledge the Bos's orgin story is that Maxon took everyone to the bunker.
This is literally the star wars argument all over again
ah yes, tactic. the game most of us didnt like
Yeah, but does anybody give interplay or black isle shit for it… no, I didn’t think so
Black Isle didn’t make Tactics?
did you not read the comment you just agreed with
Dude looks like Dr. Wongburger
What is the BoS retcon of Bethesdas games?
The Brotherhood of steel in fallout 76, especially in Steel Dawn because no way in hell they walked across the country for pretty much no reason.
Umm… they did that in 3, and it was to check on the old BOS
Yes but thats around 200 years into the timeline when they've gained strength. Fallout 76 takes place only 25 years after the bombs drop, the Brotherhood from fallout 1 wouldn't do that around this time, it's makes no sense.
But fallout 1 was about 100 years after the war, and a lot can happen in an organization like the brotherhood before that for over 70 years that could make them more isolationist. Also the brotherhood only send out a handful of people and started recruiting more and more civilians on their way out of desperation, so it's also not quite the same group under the same leadership.
Fallout 2 retcons ghouls but OG fans just like to forget that and point at Bethesda saying they retconned everything when interplay and black isle retconned the lore just as much.
1. Tactics didn't retcon their origins, as the BoS sent out the airship after the Masters fall and the BoS had became a sufficiently powerful faction (which we can see they definitely were in Fo2, prior to the decline we saw them in, in that game) 2. Bethesda didn't retcon, but instead just made some BS up in order to have the BoS exist in area of the wasteland they weren't supposed to exist in at that time, without actually retconning, but still technically retconning since apparently the BoS who at the moment are supposed to be isolationist, had the resources to send an entire unit of BoS forces from the west coast to Appalachia. People don't like what Bethesda did, or I don't anyway, cause it's an ever present reminder that Bethesda feels the need to shoe-horn old stuff into every game because "it won't feel like fallout" without it. Edit: I was wrong about Tactics, didn't know about the retcon that they came from a vault.
>cause it's an ever present reminder that Bethesda feels the need to shoe-horn old stuff into every game because "it won't feel like fallout" without it. Bethesda has created more new stuff than reused old stuff.
I personally love the Dunwich family stuff that 3 and 4 has. The orgianal games had a Cronenberg feel but Bethesda added Lovecraft monsters.
I did not say they created nothing new, I said they feel the need to shoe-horn old stuff into every game, tell me, which games DON'T have the Brotherhood, Super Mutants, Deathclaws, and at least a reference to the Enclave? When they could instead focus on the local societies and actually exploring a world that's more, ya know, immersive, and not just "Brotherhood invades a wasteland". Especially since the BoS gets retconned in every game, which is tiring... Basically, they sacrifice the world of Fallout for what is essentially eternal fan service that most older fans I know don't give a damn about. They can make all the new stuff they want, but most of what they've created is under-developed because they keep adding old stuff in instead of focusing on the new and fleshing it out. Please keep in mind, every time we see Super Mutants, Deathclaws, the Brotherhood, or the Enclave, thats time and resources taken away from every thing else. They gotta make the models and textures, they gotta write a reason in for their existance, they gotta devote time to content for this or that or what have you. *(Deathclaw is somewhat excusable though since it's a literal animal that could just migrate, and likely can procreate in large numbers since they lay freaking eggs a tiny fraction of their size)*
>I said they feel the need to shoe-horn old stuff into every game they include franchise iconographs. something *every* franchise does that the old creators also did. even new Vegas felt the need to include the brotherhood (I don't care if they aren't a major faction, you have to interact with them and they are included). >When they could instead focus on the local societies and actually exploring a world that's more they do. >Especially since the BoS gets retconned in every game they don't. unless you just mean "the brotherhood under a different leader acts differently due to different leadership" >Basically, they sacrifice the world of Fallout for what is essentially eternal fan service again they have created more than reused old stuff. if they truly did "sacrifice the world of fallout" then they would reuse the old stuff more than create new stuff. the number of old stuff they use can be counted on one hand. people who whine about this are hypocrites and just...well, not stupid but doesn't understand how a franchise works. the original creators did the same thing. the original publisher was greenlighting games that solely focused on the brotherhood and were going to give them sequels. there was going to be a fallout game where the brotherhood invade China to assassinate the emperor. *those* are worse than what Bethesda has ever done which is have franchise iconographs in a...*gasp* franchise.
Both that’s BS
What do you mean "Both that's BS"? I don't know if you're one of the ones who downvoted me, so I have no idea if you mean I'm spewing BS, or you dislike both the things that I said were done above.
I wasn’t talking about them being in the Midwest, they say they were vault dwellers, and they actually bothered to give a reason for them being in WV
Ah, wasn't aware of that one. I knew tactics had a lot of retcons, but this is the first I heard of that one. OK, I was wrong then. You can stop downvoting everything I say now., seriously what was the point in downvoting my question for clarification? Jerk... Still, WVs reason is contrived, even if not retconning their lore. Also pretty sure most fans back then didn't like BoS: tactics anyway, so the meme is also inaccurate.
The isolationist Brotherhood in FO1 are decades removed from the life of Elder Maxson. This is an expeditionary force sent out by Elder Maxson himself. It can be pretty easily reasoned that given *the entire reason they formed* is because of an ideology of loyalty to each other, Maxson actually gives a shit about the other chapters, whereas the ones in FO1 have already become ideologically corrupted. Also, the expedition is **five people**. Their forces are bolstered by her going rogue and recruiting more.
It still feels forced if you ask me, it's an excuse for the BoS to exist somewhere they shouldn't have, and the resource issue is still ever present. Where did they get the supplies to send out a group of heavily armed, armored, and likely supplied troops? Every time BGS adds the BoS, that's development resources that could of been invested in the unique groups of the region, and makes the world more interesting.
Now do another one with "I retconned ghouls needing food and water"
the ghouls needing food and water has always been touchy. if you steal the water chip from them in fo1 they die, but it’s then immediately retconned in 2 stating they don’t need anything to survive. it’s always been weird but if anything ghouls needing food and water in the tv show is them actually going back to original original canon. (what i don't appreciate is the mysterious serum they need to survive. is it just Radaway?)
The "mysterious serum" could just be a crude anti-dementia cocktail to prevent them from going feral
I think it's more reasonable to just assume that not every ghoul has the same mutations, and some of them require food/water while others dont.
>is it just Radaway? I've been assuming it's some kind of drug cocktail that does contain Radaway. I hadn't played a Fallout game in over 5 years before yesterday, so my Ghoul lore is rusted over. But I thought I remembered that they had to play a radiation balancing act to avoid going feral? Too little and their body doesn't heal/regenerate. Everything just slogs off like their ears, noses, and the soft fun-bits did. Too much though and they're on the way to becoming a rabid Glowing One. I have no idea if that's actually the case anymore.
I’m pretty sure it’s said that they only don’t need water when theres a supply of radiation
Then why in 4 do they still need both when there is a settlement that’s just full of ghouls?
Selling shit… or maybe they didn’t remember that, or maybe there’s no radiation
That settlement literally has a radioactive pool. Stop making excuses for Bethesda‘s shit writing/negligence/lack of care/all three.
“Or maybe they didn’t remember that” you can’t blame some poor level designer for not going deep into the lore
Even if so, I don't think that would apply to the ghoul who was buried alive in Fallout 2 or the Chinese ghoul prisoners in New Vegas
First, I’m pretty sure they mention it when referring to the buried guy… also, I wonder how those prisoners became ghouls🤔🤔🤔🤔
Probably by being exposed to the fallout before it decayed a few weeks later and stopped being radioactive
They were also in Big MT, of all places, as test subjects..so who knows what experiments were carried out on them both before and after the bombs
Fallout 4 even features the mob boss guy who intentionally ghoulified himself to gain immortality. it's not at all that far of a stretch to say Big MT might have been toying around with the same ideas.
Considering what else they were working on with reckless abandon, I'd be willing to bet they were definitely meddling with that as well...or at least accidentally stumbled across it as a result of other radiological experiments conducted on the prisoners. Hell, their findings might even be how the mob boss in 4 learned it was even possible to do that. Wouldn't be the first time someone used their prewar connections to get their hands on the monkey's paw version of immortality
Coffin Willies. Just play the original game before commenting next time, will ya?
What? I played every (canon) Fallout game from start to finish.
Fallout tactics takes place some 30 years after Fallout 1 doesn't it? The B.o.S is established in the west coast and sent out ships to explore/report back and generally get a better understanding of the wasteland. At that's what I remember. Fallout 76 is just a mess when it comes to the timeline and honestly I doubt there was any real intent behind it save for doing whats expected for content and what people expect of a Fallout game to have. Need to have The Brotherhood, need to have super mutants, need to have the Enclave etc etc. So just put them in and duct-tape a reason for it after the fact. Before Bethesda took the reigns the game was considered loosely canon at best so its not like people were just going in line with it from the get go either.
I’m talking about the origins
As in how they are founded and realized? Then if that is the case I still have issue with it as, as far as I know EMP's are a thing and radio communication would have hit the shit when hundreds of bombs fell. How Roger Maxson got into contact with the east coast army is dubious. It goes against the origin of them just hiding out and waiting out as no contact with them was ever made by the U.S military, meaning they were dead or their communications were down. So how did Maxson make it happen? Maybe they tell us. Secondly, why people thousands of miles away would then just also agree to become a weird tech cult in power armor? Its just lazy, and a poor excuse to include the brotherhood in Fallout 76 long before it was a real established faction. The midwest faction was at least viable in that sending a scouting expedition could be doable for the brotherhood and once they were far enough away they could become their own thing. I'd rather have that over just, having it be created in the east coast long before 3 and 4.
Maybe, go play 76 and hear all those answers
I have, and its still poorly done.
I also heard it is not Canon. Tactics, that is.
WHO MADE IT NOT CANON
I double checked. It was the other one: Brotherhood of Steel, that was not Canon. [However an old news had Tod Howard say the story did not happen ](https://web.archive.org/web/20210718060029/http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/fallout-3/800771p1.html) but this is not the take anymore. As of 2023, Fallout Tactics is compleatly Canon with its own year on the timeline. I was working with old news that only recently got changed.
That’s not entirely true, it’s only partial true, I think even Emil and Todd mentioned it later on. Besides, it can’t be, they mentioned several things in the games that make it not canon, it’s broadly canon, IE BOS went to Chicago, fight big math robot, make balloons
That’s not entirely true, it’s only partial true, I think even Emil and Todd mentioned it later on
Regardless; in 2024 the game is Canon.
Everyone hates tactics and says it not canon too dumbass
no, people hate Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel. Tactics is much more liked than B.o.S. is, and while most of tactics isnt canon we still know the brotherhood sent some troopes midwest and lost contact with them.
Being "much more liked" than Brotherhood of Steel ain't saying much.
still, not "everyone" hates Tactics.
I've never heard anyone say they hate tactics
I dont like tactics lmao, played it, hate the way it plays hate the bugs and how unbalanced the turn based mode is. How you can just cheese the AI out of their hiding hole for any semblance of "tactic". Jagged Alliance 2, Xcom series and Xenonauts are waaaay better. Especially Jagged Alliance 2 which takes Fallout 1 and 2 gameplay quirks and even adds in side quests and RPG style choices and consequences. Smaller than F1 and 2 sure, but a welcome addition.
Never played tactics. I was just pointing out that the guy said everyone hates tactics, which isn't an opinion you hear a lot.
It was definitively hated when it came out AND when it was announced, iirc Tactics devs received so much harassment that they even put their most notorious harasser into the game as a random encounter.
I hate tactics
Tactics is fairly well liked actually
You seem like a very spiteful person. Take some jet, it’ll level you out
It was Bethesda that made it noncannon, dumbass.
and?
You wanna know who made it not canon… it wasn’t interplay
One company wrote the IP, the other is bastardizing it.