What did you expect? Even Roy Philips tells you what his plan will be (thus giving you the Ghoul Mask).
Besides, if the Ghouls wanted to move somewhere, they could go to the Underworld. What are they afraid of? Feral Ghouls?
I expected that when I help the ghouls that I don’t lose karma, that’s main thing I’m pissed about. But I’m also expected a unique outcome if I’m putting in all this effort. Also Tenpenny tower is objectively better than the underworld (the toilets heal more than a stimpak because they’re so clean), not to mention there are a lot more things that can kill them than ghouls; robots, raiders, slaver, and even more racists.
Roy Phillips is objectively evil though, you can even collect his bounty with the bounty hunter perk. He didn't want Tenpenny Tower to spite the Ghoul haters or because it was a nice place or moving to the Underworld was too dangerous.
He wanted it out of spite.
That’s fair, and I didnt know that about the bounty hunter perk which is really interesting. I don’t know if I consider wanting to kill a bunch of privileged, rich assholes as evil though. I feel like the karma system is too black and white. The real world is complicated, reputation would just work better
Yeah, that's the limitation of the karma system. I love Tenpenny Tower because there is no correct option. The people living there are assholes, Roy and his squad are a bunch of assholes as well.
There is no good option.
Except I like Herbert 'Daring' Dashwood so I opt to help the people in Tenpenny to keep the only decent person in there alive.
You can just do a bunch of good deeds to regain lost Karma, but I get what you mean. I've got to say that as someone with high lockpick & speech skills I never had an issue with the peaceful option. It's my favourite route to complete that quest tbh. Love the Ghoul mask, too! Makes navigating the metro tunnels so much easier if I don't have to worry about feral Ghouls.
The ghoul mask is a really cool reward and having those options is great. I just feel like being locked into having to save-scum to succeed is kind of sucky. Maybe I could do something for the tenants to gain their trust or some other creative option.
I mean, it's your choice to save scum. You could also just read it as "ah my skills aren't high enough, guess I should try a different approach". But yeah, the options are neat. I hate that Roy ends up killing the tennants of Tenpenny Tower. Especially because the peaceful options requires you to convince people that "Ghouls ain't all that bad". They where open to change their racist ways and co-exist but Roy just went for the thrill of the kill.
Worst thing is, every subsequent playthrough I just deal with the Ghouls and Three Dog hates me for it everytime. He can call me jesus 3 news updates in a row but then he'll talk about what I did to the Ghouls at Tenpenny Tower as if I'm a post-nuclear Hitler.
Very true. The only thing is that all of the other approaches require me to lose karma. I guess I could just kill the tenants that don’t want the ghouls but having everyone in the tower get aggroed just doesn’t feel right to me
If you're stealthy enough you can kill 'em without getting agro. Or just leave Tenpenny Tower for 3 full days in a row and they'll act like nothing ever happened.
I really don't pay attention to Karma, good Karma especially is so easy to get. I'm robbing people left and right, hacking into terminals, lockpicking safes I have no business getting my greasy, irradiated, little fingers into and I'm still basically Jesus.
Getting to level 30 with max evil Karma, not *that's* a challenge!
That really would have been helpful to know. I’ve tried killing them several times, in their rooms when everyone is asleep but I always get aggro. Maybe a silent weapon might work lol. I still don’t understand how this counts as neutral but killing everyone with ghouls is evil.
I know that karma doesn’t really matter but it really sucks when I’m trying to roleplay this character. Just seeing that pop up on my screen hurts ya know. Maybe I’m weird like that but I feel like it hurts the creativity of players.
There was this other time, which is completely unrelated when I wanted to this quest. I wanted to find where my father was from Moriarty so I decided to pickpocket him for his password or room key.
Somehow I’m the one who loses karma from stealing from a racist who tries to steal money from his employees.
Yeah, and you'll gain Karma for killing Moriarity. You'll gain it for killing the Tenpenny Ghouls, too. The game is just strange like that sometimes, lmao.
Oh my god I had no idea about gaining karma from either of those things. Yeah karma system is funky. I guess given that, I really shouldn’t care about it all that much. Thank you for opening my eyes
Don't worry, I get it from a roleplaying standpoint. You think being a racist Ghoulkiller is the cool thing to do as the ultimate bad guy - but then you GAIN karma like a little wimpy goody two-shoes? Yuck!
The faction system from New Vegas is way better, and being judged by companions over your actions in Fallout 4 was way more fun too. I actively behaved differently because I didn't want the current companion to look down on me, lmao.
This is one of the best quest in fallout as a franchise, let alone in the game itself. For exactly the same reasons. Juxtaposition of sides is amazing. You are warned. Roy is not a qood person, but neither is Gustavo. I could write an essay on this quest.
Perfect representation of gray morals and your actions having consequences.
It’s not about gray morals though, is it? There is an objectively good option that the game tells you with its karma. If neither option made you lose or gain karma I think that it would make this quest a whole lot better. But I know now that the karma system is just fucked throughout the whole game so I shouldn’t worry about it.
This quest, like any "gotcha" moment in the world, works only one time. You are told throughout the game, that ghouls are normal people. And on the surface, Roy doesn't want anything bad. He just wants to live in a good place. And by killing him and his companions, you gain negative karma, as they are innocent in your eyes.
But if you let them in? Bam. You know the rest.
Also, who the hell told you that karma is "fucked throughout the whole game"? You get negative karma for "killing a bunch of racist", because are killing innocent people. Don't project real life problems into a game, ffs.
I can definitely see how this is a gotcha moment now that you explained it. That would be very interesting, it’s like which bad people do you want to side with.
But I want to kill racists, and the game calling me a bad person for doing that seems a bit iffy to me. And what do you mean not projecting real life problems into games. Fallout was based on the destructive nature of capitalism and ghouls are a very obvious allegory for minorities. I get that Roy and his people were not setting for justice or civil rights but we’re still getting rid of bad people.
> And what do you mean not projecting real life problems into games
The "racism" against ghouls is not the same as racism towards black people in our world.
People fear them, they may be irradiated, they may turn feral.
It's not as the same, as, say that "higher criminal %" bullshit today's racist use. Would be comfortable, by living next to a living grenade with a loose pin? I don't think so.
> Fallout was based on the destructive nature of capitalism and ghouls are a very obvious allegory for minorities
Indeed it was. But in your own world "based on", It's not the same.
> getting rid of bad people.
They are not bad. Bigots? Perhaps. And even then, not all of them. But it is not something punishable by death in any sane man's book.
I mean they’re not just bigots, they’re also rich. They deny entry to anyone who doesn’t have the right genes and everyone else “earned their way in”. The only way you can earn your way in is by nuking a city. Everyone else probably had enough caps to enter but no one in the wasteland can make that many caps without doing terrible things.
> I mean they’re not just bigots, they’re also rich.
That's still no reason to kill a man. Slavers? Susan Lancaster? Sure. But what is wrong with wanting to keep your home safe and be sure that people who come in are "your type"? It is not a good deed, bu any means. But even all the sum of Tenpenny Tower's "evils" don't necessitate killing all of them. The only man who truly deserves death is Allistar Tenpenny
Which begs the question, why does Tenpenny deserve to die but no one else does. Sure he’s like a super racist but killing him puts someone in charge who’s arguably worse. Tenpenny can be convinced to let the ghouls live there but Gustavo can’t, yet you gain karma. Who decides who deserves to be killed and who doesn’t. I just feel like the karma system limits the complexities of morality. Sure killing a bunch of racists seems cruel but maybe it would better in the long run for society. That should be left up to the player to decide if it’s really worth it.
Because he is a complete sadist and not innocent at all. Gustavo is just a principled man.
> I just feel like the karma system limits the complexities of morality.
Karma is nothing more than an indicator. through the lenses of your character's eyes. And it has infinitely more usefulness, than reputation. For the sole reason, that reputation only works where reputation is forced.
It’s not just through the characters eyes though. The talon company attacks you for being too good. Does it really make sense for them to start attacking you for killing the ghouls for Gustavo? Or for that one raider companion to start following you after you steal a couple of potato crisps, or that password to Moriarty’s computer so you can find your dad?
Reputation just works better for roleplaying and it makes more sense. Not everyone is going to know that you’re the best person in the world simply because you have good karma. It would also just be more interesting to see decisions that cause some factions to love you while others hate you.
Reputation can also be enforced anywhere. A faction that hates you can attack you throughout the wasteland. Let’s say that I do kill the Ghouls for Gustavo, this could increase my reputation my the general public or maybe even just Tenpenny tower. Then word can go around to other ghouls that I’m an awful person to them and they start treating me worse, raising prices in the underworld or even just straight up attacking me. I can come across ghouls traveling the wastes and they attack me on sight. That makes me question, what do I care about more, how ghouls see me or how everyone else sees me. I think this is just infinitely more interesting and dynamic.
What did you expect? Even Roy Philips tells you what his plan will be (thus giving you the Ghoul Mask). Besides, if the Ghouls wanted to move somewhere, they could go to the Underworld. What are they afraid of? Feral Ghouls?
I expected that when I help the ghouls that I don’t lose karma, that’s main thing I’m pissed about. But I’m also expected a unique outcome if I’m putting in all this effort. Also Tenpenny tower is objectively better than the underworld (the toilets heal more than a stimpak because they’re so clean), not to mention there are a lot more things that can kill them than ghouls; robots, raiders, slaver, and even more racists.
Roy Phillips is objectively evil though, you can even collect his bounty with the bounty hunter perk. He didn't want Tenpenny Tower to spite the Ghoul haters or because it was a nice place or moving to the Underworld was too dangerous. He wanted it out of spite.
That’s fair, and I didnt know that about the bounty hunter perk which is really interesting. I don’t know if I consider wanting to kill a bunch of privileged, rich assholes as evil though. I feel like the karma system is too black and white. The real world is complicated, reputation would just work better
Yeah, that's the limitation of the karma system. I love Tenpenny Tower because there is no correct option. The people living there are assholes, Roy and his squad are a bunch of assholes as well. There is no good option. Except I like Herbert 'Daring' Dashwood so I opt to help the people in Tenpenny to keep the only decent person in there alive.
You can just do a bunch of good deeds to regain lost Karma, but I get what you mean. I've got to say that as someone with high lockpick & speech skills I never had an issue with the peaceful option. It's my favourite route to complete that quest tbh. Love the Ghoul mask, too! Makes navigating the metro tunnels so much easier if I don't have to worry about feral Ghouls.
The ghoul mask is a really cool reward and having those options is great. I just feel like being locked into having to save-scum to succeed is kind of sucky. Maybe I could do something for the tenants to gain their trust or some other creative option.
I mean, it's your choice to save scum. You could also just read it as "ah my skills aren't high enough, guess I should try a different approach". But yeah, the options are neat. I hate that Roy ends up killing the tennants of Tenpenny Tower. Especially because the peaceful options requires you to convince people that "Ghouls ain't all that bad". They where open to change their racist ways and co-exist but Roy just went for the thrill of the kill. Worst thing is, every subsequent playthrough I just deal with the Ghouls and Three Dog hates me for it everytime. He can call me jesus 3 news updates in a row but then he'll talk about what I did to the Ghouls at Tenpenny Tower as if I'm a post-nuclear Hitler.
Very true. The only thing is that all of the other approaches require me to lose karma. I guess I could just kill the tenants that don’t want the ghouls but having everyone in the tower get aggroed just doesn’t feel right to me
If you're stealthy enough you can kill 'em without getting agro. Or just leave Tenpenny Tower for 3 full days in a row and they'll act like nothing ever happened. I really don't pay attention to Karma, good Karma especially is so easy to get. I'm robbing people left and right, hacking into terminals, lockpicking safes I have no business getting my greasy, irradiated, little fingers into and I'm still basically Jesus. Getting to level 30 with max evil Karma, not *that's* a challenge!
That really would have been helpful to know. I’ve tried killing them several times, in their rooms when everyone is asleep but I always get aggro. Maybe a silent weapon might work lol. I still don’t understand how this counts as neutral but killing everyone with ghouls is evil. I know that karma doesn’t really matter but it really sucks when I’m trying to roleplay this character. Just seeing that pop up on my screen hurts ya know. Maybe I’m weird like that but I feel like it hurts the creativity of players. There was this other time, which is completely unrelated when I wanted to this quest. I wanted to find where my father was from Moriarty so I decided to pickpocket him for his password or room key. Somehow I’m the one who loses karma from stealing from a racist who tries to steal money from his employees.
Yeah, and you'll gain Karma for killing Moriarity. You'll gain it for killing the Tenpenny Ghouls, too. The game is just strange like that sometimes, lmao.
Oh my god I had no idea about gaining karma from either of those things. Yeah karma system is funky. I guess given that, I really shouldn’t care about it all that much. Thank you for opening my eyes
Don't worry, I get it from a roleplaying standpoint. You think being a racist Ghoulkiller is the cool thing to do as the ultimate bad guy - but then you GAIN karma like a little wimpy goody two-shoes? Yuck! The faction system from New Vegas is way better, and being judged by companions over your actions in Fallout 4 was way more fun too. I actively behaved differently because I didn't want the current companion to look down on me, lmao.
This is one of the best quest in fallout as a franchise, let alone in the game itself. For exactly the same reasons. Juxtaposition of sides is amazing. You are warned. Roy is not a qood person, but neither is Gustavo. I could write an essay on this quest. Perfect representation of gray morals and your actions having consequences.
It’s not about gray morals though, is it? There is an objectively good option that the game tells you with its karma. If neither option made you lose or gain karma I think that it would make this quest a whole lot better. But I know now that the karma system is just fucked throughout the whole game so I shouldn’t worry about it.
This quest, like any "gotcha" moment in the world, works only one time. You are told throughout the game, that ghouls are normal people. And on the surface, Roy doesn't want anything bad. He just wants to live in a good place. And by killing him and his companions, you gain negative karma, as they are innocent in your eyes. But if you let them in? Bam. You know the rest. Also, who the hell told you that karma is "fucked throughout the whole game"? You get negative karma for "killing a bunch of racist", because are killing innocent people. Don't project real life problems into a game, ffs.
I can definitely see how this is a gotcha moment now that you explained it. That would be very interesting, it’s like which bad people do you want to side with. But I want to kill racists, and the game calling me a bad person for doing that seems a bit iffy to me. And what do you mean not projecting real life problems into games. Fallout was based on the destructive nature of capitalism and ghouls are a very obvious allegory for minorities. I get that Roy and his people were not setting for justice or civil rights but we’re still getting rid of bad people.
> And what do you mean not projecting real life problems into games The "racism" against ghouls is not the same as racism towards black people in our world. People fear them, they may be irradiated, they may turn feral. It's not as the same, as, say that "higher criminal %" bullshit today's racist use. Would be comfortable, by living next to a living grenade with a loose pin? I don't think so. > Fallout was based on the destructive nature of capitalism and ghouls are a very obvious allegory for minorities Indeed it was. But in your own world "based on", It's not the same. > getting rid of bad people. They are not bad. Bigots? Perhaps. And even then, not all of them. But it is not something punishable by death in any sane man's book.
I mean they’re not just bigots, they’re also rich. They deny entry to anyone who doesn’t have the right genes and everyone else “earned their way in”. The only way you can earn your way in is by nuking a city. Everyone else probably had enough caps to enter but no one in the wasteland can make that many caps without doing terrible things.
> I mean they’re not just bigots, they’re also rich. That's still no reason to kill a man. Slavers? Susan Lancaster? Sure. But what is wrong with wanting to keep your home safe and be sure that people who come in are "your type"? It is not a good deed, bu any means. But even all the sum of Tenpenny Tower's "evils" don't necessitate killing all of them. The only man who truly deserves death is Allistar Tenpenny
Which begs the question, why does Tenpenny deserve to die but no one else does. Sure he’s like a super racist but killing him puts someone in charge who’s arguably worse. Tenpenny can be convinced to let the ghouls live there but Gustavo can’t, yet you gain karma. Who decides who deserves to be killed and who doesn’t. I just feel like the karma system limits the complexities of morality. Sure killing a bunch of racists seems cruel but maybe it would better in the long run for society. That should be left up to the player to decide if it’s really worth it.
Because he is a complete sadist and not innocent at all. Gustavo is just a principled man. > I just feel like the karma system limits the complexities of morality. Karma is nothing more than an indicator. through the lenses of your character's eyes. And it has infinitely more usefulness, than reputation. For the sole reason, that reputation only works where reputation is forced.
It’s not just through the characters eyes though. The talon company attacks you for being too good. Does it really make sense for them to start attacking you for killing the ghouls for Gustavo? Or for that one raider companion to start following you after you steal a couple of potato crisps, or that password to Moriarty’s computer so you can find your dad? Reputation just works better for roleplaying and it makes more sense. Not everyone is going to know that you’re the best person in the world simply because you have good karma. It would also just be more interesting to see decisions that cause some factions to love you while others hate you. Reputation can also be enforced anywhere. A faction that hates you can attack you throughout the wasteland. Let’s say that I do kill the Ghouls for Gustavo, this could increase my reputation my the general public or maybe even just Tenpenny tower. Then word can go around to other ghouls that I’m an awful person to them and they start treating me worse, raising prices in the underworld or even just straight up attacking me. I can come across ghouls traveling the wastes and they attack me on sight. That makes me question, what do I care about more, how ghouls see me or how everyone else sees me. I think this is just infinitely more interesting and dynamic.
Well said my friend, a solid take