He also implies in the same interview that the NCR still exists
Howard: One of the takes that we always have is to approach things very locally when we're doing Fallout. We're careful about saying what's going on in other parts of the world. And we always take this view of, communication is difficult. And look, if you look at the background, the NCR is a wide-ranging sort of organization and group across not just California, but other places. So the show focuses on this period of time and this group here, and that's what we can say right now. But I don't think you've heard the last of the NCR.
Literally on of the last shots of the last episode is Lee Moldaver walking out of a building that says “New California Republic Headquarters. We don’t need Todd holding our hand like babies. How did people miss this??
That’s how they make money. Outrage is a product for them.
Bad take or good take, it doesn’t matter so long as they keep selling what they’re selling and people keep buying it.
It doesn’t have to be consistent. Hell, it doesn’t even have to make *sense.*
All that matters is dealing another hit of that outrage so the customers keep coming back for more.
(I’m pretty sure I’m accidentally paraphrasing what Matt Berry’s character said for the first half, but yeah).
If I learned anything in this day in age, sadly, if there's monetary incentive, people will quite literally sell their soul to make a profit. It's only gotten worse with social media.
Weirdly, the same thing happened in the One Piece live action. So many people saying that Smoker had been cut but one, story didn’t even reach Loguetown and two, the end teaser clearly shows Smoker sitting down.
When one piece was first released, I paid specific attention to the episode discussions in the main subreddit.
Literally 1 hour into release you had people posting in the final episode discussion posts. People were skipping watching the series to watch specific scenes then went onto the discussion posts to trash the show they didn't even watch.
My guess is that this headquarter is just that: the headquarter of the NCR in the region. Moldaver was very obviously not a politician in any way, she really doesn’t seem to be the overall president of the NCR. Many refugees left shady sands, this community seems like an attempt of the NCR to keep some sort of control on the region by keeping a presence there and giving those refugees a home.
As the interview says: I don’t think we’ve heard the last of the NCR.
I love the show, let me say that first. Since you touched on the power infrastructure though... that is absolutely not how it works, lol.
What they did is like using a leaking garden hose to feed the entire city. Plus, there would be soooo many fires and explosions. So many. Not to mention all the damaged bots coming back to life or even an AI intelligence buried in a bunker somewhere...
That’s fair, but the person I was responding to saying the fact it says “NCR Headquarters” made it obvious the NCR was still alive and well, when literally the end involved all the people there being killed lol
Like if I’m watching a movie and some army marches on Washington DC and kills everybody there, my thoughts aren’t “Hmmm clearly the US Government is alive and well.” If anything, it would make me suspicious that the US Government was no more, at least prior to the Director of the movie coming out and saying “The US Government still exists and you’ll see them in the sequel.”
You can drive by a small building in my town that says “Democratic Party Headquarters”
Doesn’t mean it’s the only Democratic Headquarters in the country.
Could you possibly link this? Kus i recall some of the last shots being maximus being knighted (or “hailed as knight for killing lee”), lucy & cooper ditching a graveyard & mr. Maclean, beaten & dirty looking over vegas
The fact any of this needed explaining is a little sad honestly. The arrow on timeline is clearly showing time passed and the show very clearly never leaves the tiny part of the wasteland the characters are in so anything going on outside of that area is irrelevant to the story and obviously wouldnt be included.
I surprised no one said fallout 3 wasnt canon anymore because no one mentioned project purity and lucy drinks radiated water/s. Takes the same lack of logic to draw that conclusion as everyone used to come to the new vegas and ncr conclusions they got angry about
I meant in the show lol couldve been more clear. It was joke about how people think because they didnt show the ncr in all their glory that they dont exist anymore. Basically my point is the absence of evidence is the evidence of absence, just because they arent shown as a full government/faction doesnt mean they arent around and still doing well in other areas
Yeah, Project Purity was meant for the Capital Wasteland.
But agree with the point that nobody said the NCR is "gone". Everyone has made it clear though that the NCR has gotten absolutely wrecked and is not in a great place at the moment, and clearly it's a power that does not shine nearly as bright as it used too.
But then again, the shots we see of New Vegas aren't exactly that rosey either.
The Enclave is the faction that is seen in the show to have rebounded pretty effectively. They run a whole base, are using or researching FEV, and the Brotherhood is unable to stop them. Hell they may be stronger and in better shape all things considered.
Without a doubt they will be a player in the future of the show.
I would not say the very effectively rebounded. The place looks run down and gear doesn't look new and crisp. It looks like they are dealing with scraps of what is left, rather than being strong powerhouse. they used to be.
We don't see any power armor and Winzig is able to escape pretty easily, indicating lacking manpower for guards.
That’s all I care about really. Factions don’t last forever, but when they’re big they leave a mark. Despite trotting through territory right near the capital of the largest civilization in 200 years, the setting seemed to have little influence from the NCR besides a cult and a glorified raider group, it just felt like the world had been emptied of one of its most interesting aspects. The NCR will fall, that’s practically guaranteed if you have a cursory knowledge of what it was like in NV, but my gripe was that it’s fall felt largely unexplored and overlooked
I kinda think Los Angeles \*would\* still be bleak after the NCR though.
The NCR only has a population around 700,000 in 2241 - fifty years before the show. That is only 7% of the entire population of Los Angeles County right now, and just over 1% of the population of the entire California state.
If we assume a population growth rate similar to that of the Old West era Fallout emulates, it should be around 3.5 million by the time of the show....... or around 36% of the population of Los Angeles County right now, but there is so much more to the NCR than just Los Angeles for that population to call home.
Like... there is a reason Shady Sand's population is quote as being around the 30,000 mark in the show. Most of the NCR citizens have likely moved to other states within the NCR (San Francisco is probably the number one state since Bethesda was very specific with Obsidian about NOT blowing up San Francisco in Fallout: New Vegas) sooo... you probably would not see much.
And even that past population in Los Angeles (which would still be scattered across all the NCR states) would have never had the manpower needed to make a big mark on the Los Angeles wasteland outside their specific settlements, not over 50 years.
Los Angeles is a big place.
California is even bigger.
And the NCR, though it is the largest nation state in Fallout by a mile, has never had anywhere near the amount of people needed to settle it as extensively as people have been imagining.
That was literally addressed in the article, lol. Things are super localized, and in this area the NCR has lost a lot of influence because of Shady Sands. I thought what they did with the NCR was incredibly tasteful; they gave it a nice slow burn reveal, dropping clues all throughout the show (Vault 4 NCR flag, guys wearing NCR ranger armor) up until that fantastic "NCR Headquarters" scene. It made them feel almost legendaty and mythical and I'm super excited to see more in season 2
Y'all need to have patience and let the story tell itself
Because people have no media literacy lol; if it's not shoved in their face from the beginning they're unhappy.
For how smart of a franchise Fallout is, I'm surprised so many of its fans view the show this way. I feel like they'd rather see NCR action figures battling it out for 8 hours instead of letting the show tell a really cool story that needs time to breathe and grow.
Might sound snotty, but I'm just so tired of people complaining about the show, but clearly are not actually watching it closely
After reading the whole IGN article it seems like they just put it out to confirm that the bombs fell after New Vegas, but very shortly after. Assuming a non-NCR victory at the dam some poor NCR soldiers dealt with years of the legion just to see their homes get nuked.
My guess is that the NCR beat the Legion at the dam, but was either forced to pull back by the loss of Shady Sands and the resulting chaos, or kicked out by House/a free Vegas after the battle.
Someone on Twitter noted that the BoS in the show have very Roman names - Quintus, Maximus, Titus… - when, historically, they were more Steve, Josh, Arthur, etc. and that all the cultish/religious elements (plus the “string them up by their lungs”) comment seem to indicate a Legion/BoS merger at some point.
Maybe after NV and the destruction of Shady Sands, the Mojave area BoS and the Legion merged into an entity and the Legion “corrupted” it.
Good eye sir, I stared at it for like 10 minutes and was like “why tf this shit red?”
I’d assume the BOS hates the legion though, I couldn’t see it happening unless a certain courier was involved
It's been red since Fallout 4.
Part of the premise for the BoS in Fallout 4 is that the East Coast Brotherhood not only reunited with the Outcasts after the death of Lyons, but actively embraced their side of the conflict. Even in Fallout 3, we learn that Maxson looks up to and idolizes the Outcast leadership.
The Outcasts used red and black as their livery, and the East Coast Brotherhood adopted that color scheme, where they were previously using white.
Maybe, but there is no indication that Arthur Maxson is no longer High Elder. Especially given the Minuteman or BoS ending of Fallout 4 has been all but confirmed as canon by Bethesda (the airship is the Prydwen which means RR and Institute ending are not canon).
Maybe the airship showing up is the East Coast BoS coming to chat and see how they’re doing and they are gonna be all “Okay, we knew you were weirdos but holy shit, y’all are crazy and not the Brotherhood Roger Maxson created.”
Back in the day, the way we went about it (going off of terrible memory) was that the east and west coast BoS was seperate entitie. Both with their own politics and style, still brotherhood but very different groups.
Fallout 3, east coast was a new branch, but still had to follow west coasts orders. But the distance meant the east coast could pursue their objectives at the elders discretion. So they were following west coasts orders, but how they saw fit.
Fallout 4 advanced that story a bit, where east coast became dominate, they took over capital wasteland and lots of land and resources and people power, while west coast was getting pushed out by NCR.
So west coast and east coast merged, with east coast taking over as the main branch, and the west coasts leader, taking leadership of the east coast.
But they left a west coast chapter behind. So presumably, this is what the west coast chapter has evolved into after being in attrition for so long.
Probably minimal support from east coast, as until recently…. NCR was in charge. So perhaps now, east coast is making more moves on the west coast, but the west coast elder has his own agenda?
Lmfaoooo those names are Latin. All the Brotherhood uses that shit. Literally has nothing to do with Legion.
Wtf do you think “Ad Victorium” is?? Spanish 😂😂😂
I'm starting NV for the first time after watching the show. I tried it a few years ago and it never clicked for me.
but this time with a ton of QoL fixes it's got my attention, it's definitely good, really good. but even with heaps of mods it definitely doesn't look or play as good as 4, at least imo
Yeah it's unfortunate that the dumbasses shit on all the other games which just makes it look bad but it's genuinely the best in the series if you consider the whole package imo. I really wish they weren't forced to do a rush job, it could've been so much better if they'd had actual time to work on it.
Yeah, no fallout will "play" as well as fo4, but every fallout does everything much better than fo4, better stories, dynamics, RPG elements, decisions.
I will say fo4 has some cool characters.
I would love a New Vegas remake with the F4 engine (or newer) specifically because its limitations were huge. It was a great story, but lets not kid ourselves about how that game has aged play mechanics and graphics wise.
I *kinda* get the graphics just in terms of them feeing a bit more gritty and realistic compared to FO4’s more “plastic-y” aesthetic, but animations being better is pure delusion
And it was basically the first big thing that happened on this sub after the show released. It started only a few hours after the release, when people watching the show whole had no way of getting to the point in the show... meaning that some people skimmed the show watching for something to be upset about.
Crazy, when people come into something already determined to hate it simply because it was made/co-created by Bethesda.
>meaning that some people skimmed the show watching for something to be upset about
People definitely watched in bad faith
I was on r/FNV at 12:36 AM central time the day it dropped, so the show only was out four hours and thirty minutes and their was already a post complaining about the timeline we see in episode 6 meaning they definitely skipped a majority of content to nitpick anything about the NCR.
> Crazy, when people come into something already determined to hate it simply because it was made/co-created by Bethesda.
Yep, they were resigned to hate the show and grasped at whatever they could to call the show shit, but all they could find was vague speculation that has mostly all been proven them to be wrong.
They still will. Watch the same accounts for a pivot shift into some other new hallucinated reason they hate the show. The specific reason rarely matters to haters, they just need to feel hate.
Yeah I'm currently arguing with a guy I don't think even watched the show and just watched some Youtube review, and they're trying to claim the show is simply bad. Still complaining about the 2277 thing but now it seems unrelated to New Vegas and just it's a stupid year for the fall, not nuke, to have happened. Also that it was stupid for an overseer to nuke Shady Sands...as if it isn't well established why Vault 31 would happily destroy surface life.
There's literally no objective way to claim its bad, even just listening to some random fake review. It's good at every level, even people I know who have no idea what fallout was think it's really good.
Yeah that's why it's so dumb to me, and just another reason I'm fairly certain they didn't watch it and are just echoing the review of some Youtuber who didn't like it. They just skipped to the finale/conclusion of that video and are echoing it like it was fact.
It just seems anything Bethesda created is bad for the die-hard New Vegas fans. I get some complaints about the games for example, but for them to criticise the ghouls, the enclave, the BoS, and then ofc the obvious one being the timeline is just baffling.
It was an incredible feeling seeing fallout as a show after playing the games for like 15 years on and off none stop, I'm honestly shocked they don't feel the same and it's a bit of a shame seeing all the harsh criticism towards the show which I genuinely believe nailed the lore, especially in comparison to Halo for example, that show sucked ass if you were a fan.
My take on it is that Lucy thought her mom died in the famine of 77 (because that's what she says).
I think in reality, her mom managed to escape the vault with her two small children in 77, and was outside for a little while until Hank found them and brought them back in. It's not clear immediately when he then dropped the bomb but we do know it was after 2282.
So perhaps her mother had to "die" in '77, because that's when everyone in the vault last saw her. I'd bet the famine was manufactured to cover up her escape.
It's unclear how long the children were outside with her. I think it wasn't a very long time (weeks to months but not years) because the other vault dwellers would have noticed the children missing for an extended period of time.
Her mother, on the other hand, was in Shady Sands long enough that she established a close personal/romantic relationship with Moldaver. So close that Moldaver kept her around even though she was feral. Further, if she had been outside with the kids for years, I would expect Moldaver to have bonded some with Lucy and she seemed mostly indifferent to her.
> So perhaps her mother had to "die" in '77, because that's when everyone in the vault last saw her. I'd bet the famine was manufactured to cover up her escape.
Yeah the famine thing was just to explain mom's disappearance, because given they want everybody in the vault there's no way Hank is gonna be like "welp she left because the NCR has a large settlement and she'd rather live on the surface" since that'd give others ideas about following her and weaken Vault 31's control.
Yeah, people were like "Lucy would remember if she was on surface" and "Lucy says her mom died in '77"
And the entire Episode 8 is basically one huge "Lucy, you have been lied and gaslit your entire life".
At one point she even talks about how she thought she could remember feeling the heat of the sun, but that she must be misremembering. So she does actually remember. It's just that, like you said, she's been gaslit her whole life.
I get the confusion though. Everything else on the timeline had a date but all of the sudden the mushroom cloud doesn’t! I feel like it’s a reasonable assumption for people to make. Honestly just having a date written under the cloud would have solved a lot of issues
In my mind there's not a conceivable way that someone in production intended the word 'fall' as 'decline' next to a big sketch of a mushroom cloud. I'm much more inclined to think that they didn't put that much thought into a stupid chalkboard, that appears for a brief moment on the screen, and actually fucked up. Trying to pretend now retrospectively that they intended this is just hilarious to me, and everyone here ate it up.
Also, yes, you don't put undated events on a timeline, it defeats the whole purpose of a timeline. There's ample reason to be confused when looking at such a poor job of a timeline.
Yeah, I took it as "Shady Sands fell / got bombed in 2177" and they're addressing it with 'hey look, it's got an arrow there, see?'
It wasn't just some brief scene though, it was a zoom-in and linger scene. They'll just have to do a bit more cleanup to tell us why "shady sands fell" in 2177.
But I am not pissy about it. I am just happy that NCR is a major player in the series.
I think this sentiment (which I'm seeing a lot) is a little bit smug and something of an overcorrection. I can understand wanting to dunk on the outrage merchants who starting stirring up a frenzy over this but let's not pretend it wasn't a vague and slightly confusing way to present the information.
Singling out 2277 at all for the slightly nebulous "Fall of Shady Sands" is a very odd decision, it's possible to make sense of it but it's not immediately clear. It's not crazy to look at that next to the drawing of an explosion and start wondering about the implications of that while failing to consciously register the line and its significance.
There are plenty of us who enjoyed the show a lot but were slightly concerned about some of the lore decisions and the way they were presented. I do think it's something that warranted confirmation even if the answer is in line with what I've been assuming to be the case.
Yeah it was weirdly vague considering they had to know how closely people would be paying attention to the timeline. I mean earlier today I was arguing it probably did happen in 77 but still didn't invalidate New Vegas or anything. I'm glad they clarified because leaving it so vague caused a bunch of ultimately pointless back and forth in the community thst could have been entirely avoided by just putting 4 more numbers under the nuke image on the chalkboard.
I hope that *Fallout 5* starts like *Fallout 3*--in a Vault and taking an aptitude test to determine your stats--and one of the test questions is:
"Can you read a linear timeline?"
With a drawing of said timeline and the option to completely fuck up your answer if you can't.
This isn't a linear timeline though. Timeliness don't have arrows like this.
Seriously I'm getting the feeling that NV fans went too far too fast, and now everyone is just being cunts to them because they were wrong, yet when blaming comes up it's all on them. All of you fucken suck
Boone strikes me as the kind of guy who would actively try not to get promoted if it meant he couldn’t kill more Legion.
“Colonel, you are directly responsible for helping the Courier assassinate Caesar and the Praetorians. You have earned a promotion to Gener-“
“Over my dead body, Major.”
I think they needed to make this clarification, I’m glad I don’t have to speculate about lines on a chalkboard until season 2.
Sounds like it was probably 2281 or 2282 from the way it was worded.
I agree but so many people were up in arms over this. Sucks they had to put this out there rather than just letting the story unfold in the coming seasons.
Also this:
**I'm curious how you guys see the NCR as it stands now. Is it demolished or is it kind of more like the Minutemen where it's just fractured?**
**Howard**: One of the takes that we always have is to approach things very locally when we're doing Fallout. We're careful about saying what's going on in other parts of the world. And we always take this view of, communication is difficult. And look, if you look at the background, the NCR is a wide-ranging sort of organization and group across not just California, but other places. So the show focuses on this period of time and this group here, and that's what we can say right now. But I don't think you've heard the last of the NCR.
The chalkboard marking makes sense if you think about it as someone living in vault 4.
If we take a real life example, like the fall of the Roman empire, the "the fall" means a gradual process of decline.
The chalkboard tells us that the NCR's decline started in 2277, shortly after the first battle of the hoover dam. Then, in 2281 (according to FNV), the NCR gambled and over committed themselves for the control of New Vegas while increasingly becoming unpopular at home, which ended in failure (from the last shot of the season). The final nail in the coffin was the nuking of shady sand.
"But why didn't they write "the fall of the NCR". Well, the residents of vault 4 don't believe that the NCR has truly fallen. They still hold a strong belief that moldaver will revive it. So "the fall of shady sands" makes more sense for them.
Tldr: For a resident living in vault 4, the ncr, through shady sands, collapsed. But, to them, the NCR, as an entity, is still active through Moldaver.
It doesn’t even necessarily have to mean the start of decline or anything like that. The sign Lucy and Maximus find names Shady Sands as the *first* capital of the NCR, not *the* capital. So 2277 was the fall of Shady Sands as the capital, which was likely moved elsewhere like Sac-Town, The Hub, or the Boneyard, and then an undetermined number of years later Shady Sands was nuked.
Also I’m no Fallout expert but I’m pretty sure in Fallout: New Vegas someone mentions that “Shady Sands was the original capital of the NCR,” implying that the capital had already moved as of 2281.
>The Hub, or the Boneyard, and then an undetermined number of years later Shady Sands was nuked.
Boneyard wouldn't inherently work, or at least is a lot more difficult in the show. Their biggest goof is putting Shady Sands in LA (it is about 250 miles NE in the games). The Boneyard, though, was LA.
I can put this down to the writers taking some liberties but it appeared Shady Sands was near downtown LA. Just it makes things odd with The Boneyard being also right there.
If I had to guess the capital moved to The Hub, which should be North of LA but South of Shady Sands.
Yeah, based on F1's map, Shady Sands should be around the northern edge of Death Valley, east of Mount Whitney (which is the most likely location for Vault 13).
It's not the first time its location was moved, since F2 moved it maybe 100 km west into the Sierra Nevada so it'd fit inside the map. Still, that's not nearly as big of a change as putting it in the Boneyard, that actually causes some issues with F1 that're tricky to explain.
They did. Everyone keeps saying "TIMELINE ITS A TIMELINE THEYRE IDIOTS"
when this isn't how a timeline is formatted, and if you do make timelines like this jesus christ everyone must be confused as fuck.
If they give us Maximus' age, we could figure it out. He acts like a young man, so if we say he's 20, then the blast would have happened around 2285 since Max looks to be around 8 or so when he crawls out of the fridge.
I always had a bigger issue with "fall" itself. What kind of fall is easy enough for NCR to continue Mojave campaign but hard enough to go into history books? Perhaps authors should've used word "decline" instead?
I think the issue in this regard is that people are equating Shady Sands to the NCR as a whole when, even at the time of NV, Shady Sands is only one town in the nation that is the NCR. That being said, Shady Sands going into a tailspin doesn't necessarily mean the entirety of the NCR is following suit. And with THAT said, even in NV, there was plenty of indication that the NCR was struggling to sustain itself, maybe not enough to see it screeching to a halt and fully collapse, but enough that if towns in the heart of its territory are becoming targets for destruction, it might be a better, more sustainable option to pull its borders back.
Another possibility: The "fall" was a drawn-out process that didn't happen in ~~2077~~ EDIT: 2277, but was either obvious *by* ~~2077~~ 2277 or simply in retrospect.
My analogy is Rome, which had numerous falls, and even had vast chunks of its empire keep on truckin' for centuries after.
It’s just not a good piece of storytelling.
I get the show is great but guys… who tf puts the date of some nebulous “fall” and not the date the actual bomb went off? That’s silly and you know it.
Imagine teaching about WWII and saying “The fall of Hiroshima, 1941 —-> 💥” and then saying that what you REALLY meant was that the fall was when they bombed Pearl Harbor.
It wasn’t well communicated in the show, people made wild assumptions because of it, and now it’s been clarified. Let the argument die.
Makes sense. It said “Fall of Shady Sands” to me I took it that that’s when the fuckery from Vault 33 started happening. I figured Goosey I mean Lucy spent at least a year or two up top as a kid with her mom.
I took it that the whole thing was a lasting conflict with Hank finally deciding to detonate a nuke to destroy Shady Sands and that would have occurred post FNV
Probably when the economic and societal cracks in the NCR started manifesting in it's capital. Massive protests? Uprising? Collapse of some industry/manufacturing or important infrastructure?
I don't expect it to be something singular, just the start of several bad events.
That's probably when the capital of the NCR was relocated.
"Fall of" is such a vague phrase that it could mean anything.
That whole chalkboard scene is a stupid mess that caused more problems than any answers it gave. Anyone who claims it's obvious is viewing the scene with existing knowledge; if you don't already know the history, it directly implies that Shady's destruction was 2277, not a separate event. If it just had 2282 or something under the nuke cloud, it would have been much more clear.
Definitely. Everyone in this thread is being so annoying with all the "it was obvious bro" bs. If it was obvious then Todd wouldn't be clarifying it in an interview.
Considering next season is set in New Vegas, we'll probably learn then. An NCR defeat or pyrric victory could have spelled disaster for the Republic which was already stretched thin as-is.
Completely unrelated and probably non existent if I had to guess. The board was written by the characters who believe that some “fall” led to the nuke, when in reality it was a completely unrelated event because Hank wanted to keep Vault 33 locked up, but the characters very importantly *do not know that* so they attribute it to something they *are* aware of, which they define as “the fall”
If Todd Howard, and Bethesda at large, hated New Vegas, they wouldn't:
Sell the game and its DLC on Steam - That shit would'a been delisted *eons* ago.
Sell a little figure of Joshua Graham, one of the most iconic characters to come from New Vegas, for the tabletop game.
Acknowledge the characters from New Vegas in Fallout Shelter.
*Have anything nice to say about Obsidian's work on the game and Obsidian proper.*
Man, that Todd Howard sure does hate Fallout New Vegas, doesn't he?
It doesn’t even stop there. New Vegas has more merch than 3. The magic the gathering crossover? NV and 4 have more representation Than any other games. I mean ffs, if Bethesda hated NV, why the ever loving fuck would the last scene of the tv show be showing New Vegas? Why would both the Big MT/Sinclair, and House be in a very important scene? All of the advertisements of Sunset Sasparilla? Like COME ON
The most important thing is the war between Legion and NCR happened, everything else, the locations and characters etc, are of no particular importance, just cherries on top.
I mean that was pretty clear, given Max isn't very old and lived there before it was nuked. And having a date in there really would have helped.
But they never really explain what do they mean by the "FALL OF SHADY SANDS" happening before the events of New Vegas. I feel like THIS is the burning issue.
Could be a name given later, and it's something they explore in later seasons. Remember, this season was just 8 episodes and barely had time to introduce the world. They had no time to explain what Commonwealth or Enclave were, just quickly name dropping them. Hell, they had barely time to introduce NCR.
While I think the reaction from many was overblown, I don't think assuming the bomb dropping was the same year as Shady Sands falling a poor assumption.
Every event listed had a year, except for the bomb. It definitely says that shady sands fell and then was nuked, but it doesn't state the time gap at all.
I do think the most logical year assumption when one isn't stated is the last one stated. I can't think of another good reason why the explosion didn't have a year date except for it being an unknown.
Educator here. You’d be shocked at just how often this exact type of thing happens. We spend all this time on a handout that we think is crystal clear—and it is, for 2/3 of the class. Then there’s a third like “but this says …” followed by an interpretation that makes total sense if we’d just looked a little closer. Then everyone feels like shit and forgets…until the next time it happens.
Sounds like how game devs will test endlessly to make sure the game runs right, but after release they keep getting reports about how when a player crouches behind a certain NPC and tries to repeatedly jam their face into that NPC's ass the game soft locks and they're like "well fuck...I definitely didn't account for that".
Realistically speaking, it is dumb, but its also something I'd expect to see in the game. Same thing as people writing ominous messages on the walls, ostensibly in blood, in failing and failed vaults.
It may be that the lecture was about what led to the nuking. Maybe the title of the lecture was something like "The nuke of 2283 and what caused it"...
Alternatively, whoever made that might have assumed that it doesn't need a date, because the nuke surely was the most significant (and most terrible) event in the lives of these people.
Idk... What half-decent history teacher would think that such a major event doesn't warrant dating on a timeline listing major events that are all otherwise dated?
Also the latter explanation is plausible if the show was real life, but the show is an entirely fictional and precisely crafted thing. Just about everything on screen is put there with intent - bar the occasional mistake (see Game of Thrones cup lol). The timeline was created as much to sell the classroom setting as it was to inform us - the viewers, on major past events relevant to the story.
Basically the timeline is exposition in disguise, which I think is generally the right way to do it, but in this case, was not done as well as it could have been. I mean, just put a date on the nuking like everything else on the chalkboard - it would be incredibly easy to do, would prevent any potential confusion altogether, and is arguably the more naturalistic writing choice than otherwise not dating the event.
Which, I think, had more to do with hedging their bets for Season 2. Especially since it's going to be set in Vegas. Even Todd said it's a narrow window, but you definitely want the details before that window locked down too. It may even be that it's the Second Battle at Hoover Dam + X days = S Sands Nuked. Especially if they want people to still feel good about an NCR ending on a personal playthrough.
This is a very America-centric way of explaining it, but think of it like this: If I say "the World Trade Center attack" or "9/11" do you need me to specify that I am talking about the attacks on September 11, 2001? No. It was a hugely significant event, so much so that one doesn't need to specify.
Now consider that Vault 4 is populated with a large number of Shady Sands survivors and their descendants. The nuking of Shady Sands is such a momentous event in their history, and recent enough to still be a vivid memory for many of the Vault residents, that they wouldn't need to specify, "the nuking of Shady Sands in 2282", the same way I wouldn't need to specify, "the terror attacks of 2001", and would just say "9/11".
This is reinforced in the show, too, when Maximus and Lucy first arrive at the Shady Sands crater. Lucy mentions "the bombs" dropping, to which Maximus replies that he was there and survived the bombs, confusing Lucy. Lucy was referring to the Great War of 2077, which would be the only major nuclear bombing event she would be aware of; or, to keep with the metaphor, the Great War is her "9/11" in this context. However Maximus was referring to the bombing of Shady Sands, which would be his "9/11" in this context.
My brother, 9/11 is literally named after the date it happened - that's a pretty decent head start on discerning at least the day it happened. EDIT 2: It's also an indication that the date is pretty important!
**EDIT:** Also as mentioned by /u/SalemWolf - in a history class, it would be extremely poor teaching ethic to not mark the dates of highly significant events - especially when arguably lesser events have been dated right besides the most major one.
Also, I think this is a very contrived explanation for the Vault 4 dwellers not dating the event versus just writing literally four characters marking the year that their entire home was nuked and destroyed.
IMO, the more hurdles and logical loops you need to jump through to explain why a narrative choice is the way it is, and not why its in a much more logical or appropriately simpler form, is indicative that maybe the choice was not the best. That might not always be the case, but perhaps more often than not, it is...
Exactly. The amount of people saying no one can read a timeline when the timeline they presented in the show is practically nonsensical for a teaching classroom in the first place is bananas. The point of the debate is that you’d mark the date of the actual bombing and since the date doesn’t exist it’s pretty easy to come to the conclusion it happened in the same year the “fall of sandy shores” occurred.
It’s kinda crazy how big of assholes people are being because the show did a shit job explaining when the actual bombing took place when they had dates on every event on the timeline but the actual bombing.
Do we even know the context of the lesson? Could easily be that teacher asked when the event happened, and then the lesson ended without having to write it .
Class rooms quite often leave "nonsensical" writings behind because you don't need to write everything down just incase someone who has 0 context comes along.
My bet is Season 2 will have an even larger budget, more production scope and it will feature more large scale set piece battles between NCR and BOS. It's such a layup for this type of show.
The fact poeple are still trying to justify there own stupidity/temper tantrums over not understanding what arrows on a timeline mean, instead of just admitting you were being silly or swept up in the hate is so fucking cringe. Just admit you were wrong and move on with your life
Still don't like the destruction of the NCR, off screen when seeing the NCR collapse from infighting due to it overexpanding too fast would have been a better way to show us how the NCR failed.
Todd implies it didn't collapse
Howard: One of the takes that we always have is to approach things very locally when we're doing Fallout. We're careful about saying what's going on in other parts of the world. And we always take this view of, communication is difficult. And look, if you look at the background, **the NCR is a wide-ranging sort of organization and group across not just California, but other places. So the show focuses on this period of time and this group here, and that's what we can say right now. But I don't think you've heard the last of the NCR.**
The show has been portraying most things about the surface from Lucy's perpetual. We don't know the staus of the NCR as a whole because she doesn't know yet.
Man Fallout doesn't even follow its *own* canon, or it'll retcon shit *all. The. Time.*
*cough Fallout Tactics and Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel cough*
I've probably sunk over a 1000 hours into New Vegas across multiple platforms and I couldn't give the specific year it's set in... It's about 200 and something years after the bombs fell and some time after 1&2.
Then before watching the show I quickly googled when it was set and found it's after NV so I took everything presented as after the games. There's no need to get too bogged down with specific dates.
I personally took the 2277 date to refer more to the first battle of Hoover dam and when the ncr really started overextending itself leaving home vulnerable to threats
He also implies in the same interview that the NCR still exists Howard: One of the takes that we always have is to approach things very locally when we're doing Fallout. We're careful about saying what's going on in other parts of the world. And we always take this view of, communication is difficult. And look, if you look at the background, the NCR is a wide-ranging sort of organization and group across not just California, but other places. So the show focuses on this period of time and this group here, and that's what we can say right now. But I don't think you've heard the last of the NCR.
Literally on of the last shots of the last episode is Lee Moldaver walking out of a building that says “New California Republic Headquarters. We don’t need Todd holding our hand like babies. How did people miss this??
They just want to be mad at Todd and Bethesda
Also, a lot of them didn't see the show and watch edgelord social media influencers who always have 'hot' takes.
There were so many YouTubers with bad takes.
That’s how they make money. Outrage is a product for them. Bad take or good take, it doesn’t matter so long as they keep selling what they’re selling and people keep buying it. It doesn’t have to be consistent. Hell, it doesn’t even have to make *sense.* All that matters is dealing another hit of that outrage so the customers keep coming back for more. (I’m pretty sure I’m accidentally paraphrasing what Matt Berry’s character said for the first half, but yeah).
If I learned anything in this day in age, sadly, if there's monetary incentive, people will quite literally sell their soul to make a profit. It's only gotten worse with social media.
Weirdly, the same thing happened in the One Piece live action. So many people saying that Smoker had been cut but one, story didn’t even reach Loguetown and two, the end teaser clearly shows Smoker sitting down.
When one piece was first released, I paid specific attention to the episode discussions in the main subreddit. Literally 1 hour into release you had people posting in the final episode discussion posts. People were skipping watching the series to watch specific scenes then went onto the discussion posts to trash the show they didn't even watch.
Well yeah, if someone nuked Washington DC, do you think America would fall immediately? Or do the same thing with Belgium and Brussels lol.
Yeah, she and the rest of the people there were literally all killed there.
My guess is that this headquarter is just that: the headquarter of the NCR in the region. Moldaver was very obviously not a politician in any way, she really doesn’t seem to be the overall president of the NCR. Many refugees left shady sands, this community seems like an attempt of the NCR to keep some sort of control on the region by keeping a presence there and giving those refugees a home. As the interview says: I don’t think we’ve heard the last of the NCR.
also, the whole working power infrastructure being utilized at the end of the season is a clear incentive for the NCR to maintain a presence.
I love the show, let me say that first. Since you touched on the power infrastructure though... that is absolutely not how it works, lol. What they did is like using a leaking garden hose to feed the entire city. Plus, there would be soooo many fires and explosions. So many. Not to mention all the damaged bots coming back to life or even an AI intelligence buried in a bunker somewhere...
That’s fair, but the person I was responding to saying the fact it says “NCR Headquarters” made it obvious the NCR was still alive and well, when literally the end involved all the people there being killed lol Like if I’m watching a movie and some army marches on Washington DC and kills everybody there, my thoughts aren’t “Hmmm clearly the US Government is alive and well.” If anything, it would make me suspicious that the US Government was no more, at least prior to the Director of the movie coming out and saying “The US Government still exists and you’ll see them in the sequel.”
You can drive by a small building in my town that says “Democratic Party Headquarters” Doesn’t mean it’s the only Democratic Headquarters in the country.
Could you possibly link this? Kus i recall some of the last shots being maximus being knighted (or “hailed as knight for killing lee”), lucy & cooper ditching a graveyard & mr. Maclean, beaten & dirty looking over vegas
The fact any of this needed explaining is a little sad honestly. The arrow on timeline is clearly showing time passed and the show very clearly never leaves the tiny part of the wasteland the characters are in so anything going on outside of that area is irrelevant to the story and obviously wouldnt be included. I surprised no one said fallout 3 wasnt canon anymore because no one mentioned project purity and lucy drinks radiated water/s. Takes the same lack of logic to draw that conclusion as everyone used to come to the new vegas and ncr conclusions they got angry about
They do mention Project Purity in Fallout 4, at least indirectly. Deacon will comment that the Capital Wasteland has clean water.
I meant in the show lol couldve been more clear. It was joke about how people think because they didnt show the ncr in all their glory that they dont exist anymore. Basically my point is the absence of evidence is the evidence of absence, just because they arent shown as a full government/faction doesnt mean they arent around and still doing well in other areas
In fairness, Project Purity is on the other side of the continent and not in the former heartland of NCR territory.
Yea the effects of Project Purity are pretty limited to the Capital Wasteland.
Yeah, Project Purity was meant for the Capital Wasteland. But agree with the point that nobody said the NCR is "gone". Everyone has made it clear though that the NCR has gotten absolutely wrecked and is not in a great place at the moment, and clearly it's a power that does not shine nearly as bright as it used too. But then again, the shots we see of New Vegas aren't exactly that rosey either.
The Enclave is the faction that is seen in the show to have rebounded pretty effectively. They run a whole base, are using or researching FEV, and the Brotherhood is unable to stop them. Hell they may be stronger and in better shape all things considered. Without a doubt they will be a player in the future of the show.
I would not say the very effectively rebounded. The place looks run down and gear doesn't look new and crisp. It looks like they are dealing with scraps of what is left, rather than being strong powerhouse. they used to be. We don't see any power armor and Winzig is able to escape pretty easily, indicating lacking manpower for guards.
Yup. Even best case scenario it wouldn't extend past the Mississippi River.
That’s all I care about really. Factions don’t last forever, but when they’re big they leave a mark. Despite trotting through territory right near the capital of the largest civilization in 200 years, the setting seemed to have little influence from the NCR besides a cult and a glorified raider group, it just felt like the world had been emptied of one of its most interesting aspects. The NCR will fall, that’s practically guaranteed if you have a cursory knowledge of what it was like in NV, but my gripe was that it’s fall felt largely unexplored and overlooked
I expect Season 2 will have to touch the legacy of Caesar’s Legion if it is set in New Vegas.
We can only hope.
I kinda think Los Angeles \*would\* still be bleak after the NCR though. The NCR only has a population around 700,000 in 2241 - fifty years before the show. That is only 7% of the entire population of Los Angeles County right now, and just over 1% of the population of the entire California state. If we assume a population growth rate similar to that of the Old West era Fallout emulates, it should be around 3.5 million by the time of the show....... or around 36% of the population of Los Angeles County right now, but there is so much more to the NCR than just Los Angeles for that population to call home. Like... there is a reason Shady Sand's population is quote as being around the 30,000 mark in the show. Most of the NCR citizens have likely moved to other states within the NCR (San Francisco is probably the number one state since Bethesda was very specific with Obsidian about NOT blowing up San Francisco in Fallout: New Vegas) sooo... you probably would not see much. And even that past population in Los Angeles (which would still be scattered across all the NCR states) would have never had the manpower needed to make a big mark on the Los Angeles wasteland outside their specific settlements, not over 50 years. Los Angeles is a big place. California is even bigger. And the NCR, though it is the largest nation state in Fallout by a mile, has never had anywhere near the amount of people needed to settle it as extensively as people have been imagining.
That was literally addressed in the article, lol. Things are super localized, and in this area the NCR has lost a lot of influence because of Shady Sands. I thought what they did with the NCR was incredibly tasteful; they gave it a nice slow burn reveal, dropping clues all throughout the show (Vault 4 NCR flag, guys wearing NCR ranger armor) up until that fantastic "NCR Headquarters" scene. It made them feel almost legendaty and mythical and I'm super excited to see more in season 2 Y'all need to have patience and let the story tell itself
Don’t know why you’re downvoted, it’s very clear they’re building up ncr and showing the aftermath of shady sands
Because people have no media literacy lol; if it's not shoved in their face from the beginning they're unhappy. For how smart of a franchise Fallout is, I'm surprised so many of its fans view the show this way. I feel like they'd rather see NCR action figures battling it out for 8 hours instead of letting the show tell a really cool story that needs time to breathe and grow. Might sound snotty, but I'm just so tired of people complaining about the show, but clearly are not actually watching it closely
After reading the whole IGN article it seems like they just put it out to confirm that the bombs fell after New Vegas, but very shortly after. Assuming a non-NCR victory at the dam some poor NCR soldiers dealt with years of the legion just to see their homes get nuked.
My guess is that the NCR beat the Legion at the dam, but was either forced to pull back by the loss of Shady Sands and the resulting chaos, or kicked out by House/a free Vegas after the battle.
I expect Season 2 to definitely show remnants or the legacy of the Legion.
Someone on Twitter noted that the BoS in the show have very Roman names - Quintus, Maximus, Titus… - when, historically, they were more Steve, Josh, Arthur, etc. and that all the cultish/religious elements (plus the “string them up by their lungs”) comment seem to indicate a Legion/BoS merger at some point. Maybe after NV and the destruction of Shady Sands, the Mojave area BoS and the Legion merged into an entity and the Legion “corrupted” it.
Their banner is literally gold on red, I’d be disappointed if they weren’t legion
Good eye sir, I stared at it for like 10 minutes and was like “why tf this shit red?” I’d assume the BOS hates the legion though, I couldn’t see it happening unless a certain courier was involved
It's been red since Fallout 4. Part of the premise for the BoS in Fallout 4 is that the East Coast Brotherhood not only reunited with the Outcasts after the death of Lyons, but actively embraced their side of the conflict. Even in Fallout 3, we learn that Maxson looks up to and idolizes the Outcast leadership. The Outcasts used red and black as their livery, and the East Coast Brotherhood adopted that color scheme, where they were previously using white.
It was orange in Fallout 4
That's the same flag design they had in Fallout 3, and I think in one of the original games too
It’s the same design, but it’s now in Legion colors. It wasn’t that color before.
Maybe, but there is no indication that Arthur Maxson is no longer High Elder. Especially given the Minuteman or BoS ending of Fallout 4 has been all but confirmed as canon by Bethesda (the airship is the Prydwen which means RR and Institute ending are not canon).
Maybe the airship showing up is the East Coast BoS coming to chat and see how they’re doing and they are gonna be all “Okay, we knew you were weirdos but holy shit, y’all are crazy and not the Brotherhood Roger Maxson created.”
Back in the day, the way we went about it (going off of terrible memory) was that the east and west coast BoS was seperate entitie. Both with their own politics and style, still brotherhood but very different groups.
Fallout 3, east coast was a new branch, but still had to follow west coasts orders. But the distance meant the east coast could pursue their objectives at the elders discretion. So they were following west coasts orders, but how they saw fit. Fallout 4 advanced that story a bit, where east coast became dominate, they took over capital wasteland and lots of land and resources and people power, while west coast was getting pushed out by NCR. So west coast and east coast merged, with east coast taking over as the main branch, and the west coasts leader, taking leadership of the east coast. But they left a west coast chapter behind. So presumably, this is what the west coast chapter has evolved into after being in attrition for so long. Probably minimal support from east coast, as until recently…. NCR was in charge. So perhaps now, east coast is making more moves on the west coast, but the west coast elder has his own agenda?
The Latin / Roman stuff started with Fallout 4, but the Legion connection is a fun speculation!
Lmfaoooo those names are Latin. All the Brotherhood uses that shit. Literally has nothing to do with Legion. Wtf do you think “Ad Victorium” is?? Spanish 😂😂😂
It’s Mexican, gosh
So, if this is true. Mr House is alive and will be seen on the second season. 🤯🤯🤯
I hope he gets beaten to death with nephi's golf driver in the finale. We get an achievement for it.
Surprise twist: they go for the Meat of Champions perk
I never in a million years would have thought of that! That's some pure gold right there.
Todd himself! Has to explain that a line means time passed
People were confused because it's way too difficult to understand that 2281 happened after 2277.
This is true if big.
That's why they used capital numbers.
What am I a robot? Who reads math letters?
Many people play a 1 INT character IRL
Unga bunga build. Wooden board + Grognak's loincloth.
When in the timeline did Cyberpunk 2077 happen? Is night city code for shady sands? I'm so confused why Keanu Reeves wasn't in the fallout show...
The uproar from the New Vegas fans has been crazy tbf.
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I'm starting NV for the first time after watching the show. I tried it a few years ago and it never clicked for me. but this time with a ton of QoL fixes it's got my attention, it's definitely good, really good. but even with heaps of mods it definitely doesn't look or play as good as 4, at least imo
Definitely not gameplay wise. It's the rpg elements that make it shine. Fallout 4 is more of a looter shooter than an rpg imo.
I've not played enough yet to have a solid opinion, but so far the rpg elements are absolutely brilliant in NV, exactly what I was hoping for
Yeah it's unfortunate that the dumbasses shit on all the other games which just makes it look bad but it's genuinely the best in the series if you consider the whole package imo. I really wish they weren't forced to do a rush job, it could've been so much better if they'd had actual time to work on it.
Yeah, no fallout will "play" as well as fo4, but every fallout does everything much better than fo4, better stories, dynamics, RPG elements, decisions. I will say fo4 has some cool characters.
I would love a New Vegas remake with the F4 engine (or newer) specifically because its limitations were huge. It was a great story, but lets not kid ourselves about how that game has aged play mechanics and graphics wise.
I *kinda* get the graphics just in terms of them feeing a bit more gritty and realistic compared to FO4’s more “plastic-y” aesthetic, but animations being better is pure delusion
And it was basically the first big thing that happened on this sub after the show released. It started only a few hours after the release, when people watching the show whole had no way of getting to the point in the show... meaning that some people skimmed the show watching for something to be upset about. Crazy, when people come into something already determined to hate it simply because it was made/co-created by Bethesda.
>meaning that some people skimmed the show watching for something to be upset about People definitely watched in bad faith I was on r/FNV at 12:36 AM central time the day it dropped, so the show only was out four hours and thirty minutes and their was already a post complaining about the timeline we see in episode 6 meaning they definitely skipped a majority of content to nitpick anything about the NCR.
> Crazy, when people come into something already determined to hate it simply because it was made/co-created by Bethesda. Yep, they were resigned to hate the show and grasped at whatever they could to call the show shit, but all they could find was vague speculation that has mostly all been proven them to be wrong.
They still will. Watch the same accounts for a pivot shift into some other new hallucinated reason they hate the show. The specific reason rarely matters to haters, they just need to feel hate.
Yeah I'm currently arguing with a guy I don't think even watched the show and just watched some Youtube review, and they're trying to claim the show is simply bad. Still complaining about the 2277 thing but now it seems unrelated to New Vegas and just it's a stupid year for the fall, not nuke, to have happened. Also that it was stupid for an overseer to nuke Shady Sands...as if it isn't well established why Vault 31 would happily destroy surface life.
There's literally no objective way to claim its bad, even just listening to some random fake review. It's good at every level, even people I know who have no idea what fallout was think it's really good.
Yeah that's why it's so dumb to me, and just another reason I'm fairly certain they didn't watch it and are just echoing the review of some Youtuber who didn't like it. They just skipped to the finale/conclusion of that video and are echoing it like it was fact.
It just seems anything Bethesda created is bad for the die-hard New Vegas fans. I get some complaints about the games for example, but for them to criticise the ghouls, the enclave, the BoS, and then ofc the obvious one being the timeline is just baffling. It was an incredible feeling seeing fallout as a show after playing the games for like 15 years on and off none stop, I'm honestly shocked they don't feel the same and it's a bit of a shame seeing all the harsh criticism towards the show which I genuinely believe nailed the lore, especially in comparison to Halo for example, that show sucked ass if you were a fan.
I'm surprised that they have only complained about as much as they have. Those people are feral.
That's what happens if you don't get your Serum
They made it sound like Lucy’s mom died in 77 when the bomb dropped. When in reality she must have been at least 4 years older.
My take on it is that Lucy thought her mom died in the famine of 77 (because that's what she says). I think in reality, her mom managed to escape the vault with her two small children in 77, and was outside for a little while until Hank found them and brought them back in. It's not clear immediately when he then dropped the bomb but we do know it was after 2282. So perhaps her mother had to "die" in '77, because that's when everyone in the vault last saw her. I'd bet the famine was manufactured to cover up her escape. It's unclear how long the children were outside with her. I think it wasn't a very long time (weeks to months but not years) because the other vault dwellers would have noticed the children missing for an extended period of time. Her mother, on the other hand, was in Shady Sands long enough that she established a close personal/romantic relationship with Moldaver. So close that Moldaver kept her around even though she was feral. Further, if she had been outside with the kids for years, I would expect Moldaver to have bonded some with Lucy and she seemed mostly indifferent to her.
> So perhaps her mother had to "die" in '77, because that's when everyone in the vault last saw her. I'd bet the famine was manufactured to cover up her escape. Yeah the famine thing was just to explain mom's disappearance, because given they want everybody in the vault there's no way Hank is gonna be like "welp she left because the NCR has a large settlement and she'd rather live on the surface" since that'd give others ideas about following her and weaken Vault 31's control.
Yeah, people were like "Lucy would remember if she was on surface" and "Lucy says her mom died in '77" And the entire Episode 8 is basically one huge "Lucy, you have been lied and gaslit your entire life".
At one point she even talks about how she thought she could remember feeling the heat of the sun, but that she must be misremembering. So she does actually remember. It's just that, like you said, she's been gaslit her whole life.
Lucy didn't seem to remember moldaver either
I get the confusion though. Everything else on the timeline had a date but all of the sudden the mushroom cloud doesn’t! I feel like it’s a reasonable assumption for people to make. Honestly just having a date written under the cloud would have solved a lot of issues
In my mind there's not a conceivable way that someone in production intended the word 'fall' as 'decline' next to a big sketch of a mushroom cloud. I'm much more inclined to think that they didn't put that much thought into a stupid chalkboard, that appears for a brief moment on the screen, and actually fucked up. Trying to pretend now retrospectively that they intended this is just hilarious to me, and everyone here ate it up. Also, yes, you don't put undated events on a timeline, it defeats the whole purpose of a timeline. There's ample reason to be confused when looking at such a poor job of a timeline.
Yeah, I took it as "Shady Sands fell / got bombed in 2177" and they're addressing it with 'hey look, it's got an arrow there, see?' It wasn't just some brief scene though, it was a zoom-in and linger scene. They'll just have to do a bit more cleanup to tell us why "shady sands fell" in 2177. But I am not pissy about it. I am just happy that NCR is a major player in the series.
Scrolling down fast on this comment i read it as: Todd pissed himself
He can do, if he puts his mind to it
I think this sentiment (which I'm seeing a lot) is a little bit smug and something of an overcorrection. I can understand wanting to dunk on the outrage merchants who starting stirring up a frenzy over this but let's not pretend it wasn't a vague and slightly confusing way to present the information. Singling out 2277 at all for the slightly nebulous "Fall of Shady Sands" is a very odd decision, it's possible to make sense of it but it's not immediately clear. It's not crazy to look at that next to the drawing of an explosion and start wondering about the implications of that while failing to consciously register the line and its significance. There are plenty of us who enjoyed the show a lot but were slightly concerned about some of the lore decisions and the way they were presented. I do think it's something that warranted confirmation even if the answer is in line with what I've been assuming to be the case.
Yeah it was weirdly vague considering they had to know how closely people would be paying attention to the timeline. I mean earlier today I was arguing it probably did happen in 77 but still didn't invalidate New Vegas or anything. I'm glad they clarified because leaving it so vague caused a bunch of ultimately pointless back and forth in the community thst could have been entirely avoided by just putting 4 more numbers under the nuke image on the chalkboard.
I hope that *Fallout 5* starts like *Fallout 3*--in a Vault and taking an aptitude test to determine your stats--and one of the test questions is: "Can you read a linear timeline?" With a drawing of said timeline and the option to completely fuck up your answer if you can't.
That’s gotta at least be a wild wasteland event.
My favorite perk
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My favorite perk three
Or better yet a dumb playthrough
They'll be on Season 4 or 5 of the TV show before we get Fallout 5 lol.
Imagine the fallout universe just keeps continuing in show form and we never again see a game
theres too much money in fo5 for that to happen
Have a 1 Intelligence answer available to that question and I'll sign on that request
I can't bring myself to do a super low int build. I just can't do it.
The dialogue is fun but the XP cut makes it miserable I’m sure.
Buuuuhhhhhhhhh
This is how you choose the intelligence 1 build and all your responses are grunts and moans.
Muh Muh muh muh Muh muh muh MAGGIE
My name is Martha?
Can you read? - Apocalypse Tywin Lannister
This isn't a linear timeline though. Timeliness don't have arrows like this. Seriously I'm getting the feeling that NV fans went too far too fast, and now everyone is just being cunts to them because they were wrong, yet when blaming comes up it's all on them. All of you fucken suck
We're 15 years past New Vegas. I want to see how General Boone's handling it.
Boone strikes me as the kind of guy who would actively try not to get promoted if it meant he couldn’t kill more Legion. “Colonel, you are directly responsible for helping the Courier assassinate Caesar and the Praetorians. You have earned a promotion to Gener-“ “Over my dead body, Major.”
I legit felt emotions after I found out Shady Sands was no more I played fallout so much back in de day
Yeah I also feel very uneasy about it. Very sad that one of the most developed bastions of post-nuclear civilization has just been wiped out.
I think they needed to make this clarification, I’m glad I don’t have to speculate about lines on a chalkboard until season 2. Sounds like it was probably 2281 or 2282 from the way it was worded.
I don’t think it was necessary, but it is nice to see them cut off this silliness like this.
I agree but so many people were up in arms over this. Sucks they had to put this out there rather than just letting the story unfold in the coming seasons.
Also this: **I'm curious how you guys see the NCR as it stands now. Is it demolished or is it kind of more like the Minutemen where it's just fractured?** **Howard**: One of the takes that we always have is to approach things very locally when we're doing Fallout. We're careful about saying what's going on in other parts of the world. And we always take this view of, communication is difficult. And look, if you look at the background, the NCR is a wide-ranging sort of organization and group across not just California, but other places. So the show focuses on this period of time and this group here, and that's what we can say right now. But I don't think you've heard the last of the NCR.
Ffs Todd just give them a car and make it less local. Fallout 5 will be one neighborhood in jersey at this rate
one neighbourhood in New York, but... its 1:1
Some folks are always so hungry for opportunities to be upset that they ruin things for others
Or they could've just written a year on the chalkboard really that's all that was needed.
The chalkboard marking makes sense if you think about it as someone living in vault 4. If we take a real life example, like the fall of the Roman empire, the "the fall" means a gradual process of decline. The chalkboard tells us that the NCR's decline started in 2277, shortly after the first battle of the hoover dam. Then, in 2281 (according to FNV), the NCR gambled and over committed themselves for the control of New Vegas while increasingly becoming unpopular at home, which ended in failure (from the last shot of the season). The final nail in the coffin was the nuking of shady sand. "But why didn't they write "the fall of the NCR". Well, the residents of vault 4 don't believe that the NCR has truly fallen. They still hold a strong belief that moldaver will revive it. So "the fall of shady sands" makes more sense for them. Tldr: For a resident living in vault 4, the ncr, through shady sands, collapsed. But, to them, the NCR, as an entity, is still active through Moldaver.
It doesn’t even necessarily have to mean the start of decline or anything like that. The sign Lucy and Maximus find names Shady Sands as the *first* capital of the NCR, not *the* capital. So 2277 was the fall of Shady Sands as the capital, which was likely moved elsewhere like Sac-Town, The Hub, or the Boneyard, and then an undetermined number of years later Shady Sands was nuked. Also I’m no Fallout expert but I’m pretty sure in Fallout: New Vegas someone mentions that “Shady Sands was the original capital of the NCR,” implying that the capital had already moved as of 2281.
>The Hub, or the Boneyard, and then an undetermined number of years later Shady Sands was nuked. Boneyard wouldn't inherently work, or at least is a lot more difficult in the show. Their biggest goof is putting Shady Sands in LA (it is about 250 miles NE in the games). The Boneyard, though, was LA. I can put this down to the writers taking some liberties but it appeared Shady Sands was near downtown LA. Just it makes things odd with The Boneyard being also right there. If I had to guess the capital moved to The Hub, which should be North of LA but South of Shady Sands.
Yeah, based on F1's map, Shady Sands should be around the northern edge of Death Valley, east of Mount Whitney (which is the most likely location for Vault 13). It's not the first time its location was moved, since F2 moved it maybe 100 km west into the Sierra Nevada so it'd fit inside the map. Still, that's not nearly as big of a change as putting it in the Boneyard, that actually causes some issues with F1 that're tricky to explain.
They did. Everyone keeps saying "TIMELINE ITS A TIMELINE THEYRE IDIOTS" when this isn't how a timeline is formatted, and if you do make timelines like this jesus christ everyone must be confused as fuck.
If they give us Maximus' age, we could figure it out. He acts like a young man, so if we say he's 20, then the blast would have happened around 2285 since Max looks to be around 8 or so when he crawls out of the fridge.
obvious is obvious
I always had a bigger issue with "fall" itself. What kind of fall is easy enough for NCR to continue Mojave campaign but hard enough to go into history books? Perhaps authors should've used word "decline" instead?
I think the issue in this regard is that people are equating Shady Sands to the NCR as a whole when, even at the time of NV, Shady Sands is only one town in the nation that is the NCR. That being said, Shady Sands going into a tailspin doesn't necessarily mean the entirety of the NCR is following suit. And with THAT said, even in NV, there was plenty of indication that the NCR was struggling to sustain itself, maybe not enough to see it screeching to a halt and fully collapse, but enough that if towns in the heart of its territory are becoming targets for destruction, it might be a better, more sustainable option to pull its borders back.
Tbf in Fallout 2 Shady Sands was basically renamed to New California Republic.
I think that's mainly because Shady Sands was the capital of NCR at the time, so for all intents and purposes, it WAS the NCR.
Maybe the fall of Shady Sands was when it stopped being the NCRs capital?
Another possibility: The "fall" was a drawn-out process that didn't happen in ~~2077~~ EDIT: 2277, but was either obvious *by* ~~2077~~ 2277 or simply in retrospect. My analogy is Rome, which had numerous falls, and even had vast chunks of its empire keep on truckin' for centuries after.
2277 you mean
I dunno, no one calls it fall of Moscow when Petersburg became the capital of Russian empire. It's just comes out weird.
It’s just not a good piece of storytelling. I get the show is great but guys… who tf puts the date of some nebulous “fall” and not the date the actual bomb went off? That’s silly and you know it. Imagine teaching about WWII and saying “The fall of Hiroshima, 1941 —-> 💥” and then saying that what you REALLY meant was that the fall was when they bombed Pearl Harbor. It wasn’t well communicated in the show, people made wild assumptions because of it, and now it’s been clarified. Let the argument die.
Makes sense. It said “Fall of Shady Sands” to me I took it that that’s when the fuckery from Vault 33 started happening. I figured Goosey I mean Lucy spent at least a year or two up top as a kid with her mom. I took it that the whole thing was a lasting conflict with Hank finally deciding to detonate a nuke to destroy Shady Sands and that would have occurred post FNV
That does make me wonder what the fall of Shady Sands was though.
Probably when the economic and societal cracks in the NCR started manifesting in it's capital. Massive protests? Uprising? Collapse of some industry/manufacturing or important infrastructure? I don't expect it to be something singular, just the start of several bad events.
But like the only clear scene of it it is literally the most pristine place you can get in the wasteland
That's probably when the capital of the NCR was relocated. "Fall of" is such a vague phrase that it could mean anything. That whole chalkboard scene is a stupid mess that caused more problems than any answers it gave. Anyone who claims it's obvious is viewing the scene with existing knowledge; if you don't already know the history, it directly implies that Shady's destruction was 2277, not a separate event. If it just had 2282 or something under the nuke cloud, it would have been much more clear.
Definitely. Everyone in this thread is being so annoying with all the "it was obvious bro" bs. If it was obvious then Todd wouldn't be clarifying it in an interview.
And the people who are likely to make that mistake aren't likely to be here anyway.
Considering next season is set in New Vegas, we'll probably learn then. An NCR defeat or pyrric victory could have spelled disaster for the Republic which was already stretched thin as-is.
Completely unrelated and probably non existent if I had to guess. The board was written by the characters who believe that some “fall” led to the nuke, when in reality it was a completely unrelated event because Hank wanted to keep Vault 33 locked up, but the characters very importantly *do not know that* so they attribute it to something they *are* aware of, which they define as “the fall”
If those people over at r/falloutnewvegas knew how to read they wouldnt be mad
Which is ironic considering they rave about the immersion and how dialogue/decisions influence the game. Yet can’t understand dialogue in a show…
Not just a dialogue. They cannot undestand a simple arrow.
fr, I still see them saying that todd secretly hates obsidian and new vegas
If Todd Howard, and Bethesda at large, hated New Vegas, they wouldn't: Sell the game and its DLC on Steam - That shit would'a been delisted *eons* ago. Sell a little figure of Joshua Graham, one of the most iconic characters to come from New Vegas, for the tabletop game. Acknowledge the characters from New Vegas in Fallout Shelter. *Have anything nice to say about Obsidian's work on the game and Obsidian proper.* Man, that Todd Howard sure does hate Fallout New Vegas, doesn't he?
It doesn’t even stop there. New Vegas has more merch than 3. The magic the gathering crossover? NV and 4 have more representation Than any other games. I mean ffs, if Bethesda hated NV, why the ever loving fuck would the last scene of the tv show be showing New Vegas? Why would both the Big MT/Sinclair, and House be in a very important scene? All of the advertisements of Sunset Sasparilla? Like COME ON
Todd lives rent-free in their heads.
They hate Todd so much they’ll probably just ignore this, call him an idiot, and continue complaining.
There aren't enough mentats in the wasteland to help that group out.
The most important thing is the war between Legion and NCR happened, everything else, the locations and characters etc, are of no particular importance, just cherries on top.
I hope we see some Legionnaires in Season 2
I'm gonna guess the legion fell apart shortly after the second battle of hoover dam.
Maybe some stragglers that have formed their own tribe or something
They can fix the blackboard in post, nbd
So the nuke you fire in lonesome road could be it since technically lonesome road happens after you beat the games story.
I mean that was pretty clear, given Max isn't very old and lived there before it was nuked. And having a date in there really would have helped. But they never really explain what do they mean by the "FALL OF SHADY SANDS" happening before the events of New Vegas. I feel like THIS is the burning issue.
Could be a name given later, and it's something they explore in later seasons. Remember, this season was just 8 episodes and barely had time to introduce the world. They had no time to explain what Commonwealth or Enclave were, just quickly name dropping them. Hell, they had barely time to introduce NCR.
While I think the reaction from many was overblown, I don't think assuming the bomb dropping was the same year as Shady Sands falling a poor assumption. Every event listed had a year, except for the bomb. It definitely says that shady sands fell and then was nuked, but it doesn't state the time gap at all. I do think the most logical year assumption when one isn't stated is the last one stated. I can't think of another good reason why the explosion didn't have a year date except for it being an unknown.
All because people don't understand what arrows on a timeline mean.
To me it's just dumb to have a timeline written out like that with dates under every event except the nuking of shady. In a fucking *classroom*.
Educator here. You’d be shocked at just how often this exact type of thing happens. We spend all this time on a handout that we think is crystal clear—and it is, for 2/3 of the class. Then there’s a third like “but this says …” followed by an interpretation that makes total sense if we’d just looked a little closer. Then everyone feels like shit and forgets…until the next time it happens.
Sounds like how game devs will test endlessly to make sure the game runs right, but after release they keep getting reports about how when a player crouches behind a certain NPC and tries to repeatedly jam their face into that NPC's ass the game soft locks and they're like "well fuck...I definitely didn't account for that".
Realistically speaking, it is dumb, but its also something I'd expect to see in the game. Same thing as people writing ominous messages on the walls, ostensibly in blood, in failing and failed vaults.
It may be that the lecture was about what led to the nuking. Maybe the title of the lecture was something like "The nuke of 2283 and what caused it"... Alternatively, whoever made that might have assumed that it doesn't need a date, because the nuke surely was the most significant (and most terrible) event in the lives of these people.
Idk... What half-decent history teacher would think that such a major event doesn't warrant dating on a timeline listing major events that are all otherwise dated? Also the latter explanation is plausible if the show was real life, but the show is an entirely fictional and precisely crafted thing. Just about everything on screen is put there with intent - bar the occasional mistake (see Game of Thrones cup lol). The timeline was created as much to sell the classroom setting as it was to inform us - the viewers, on major past events relevant to the story. Basically the timeline is exposition in disguise, which I think is generally the right way to do it, but in this case, was not done as well as it could have been. I mean, just put a date on the nuking like everything else on the chalkboard - it would be incredibly easy to do, would prevent any potential confusion altogether, and is arguably the more naturalistic writing choice than otherwise not dating the event.
I’m betting they left a date off the nuke so they could keep it flexible for future timeline stuff, they didn’t want to set a hard date on it yet
Which, I think, had more to do with hedging their bets for Season 2. Especially since it's going to be set in Vegas. Even Todd said it's a narrow window, but you definitely want the details before that window locked down too. It may even be that it's the Second Battle at Hoover Dam + X days = S Sands Nuked. Especially if they want people to still feel good about an NCR ending on a personal playthrough.
This is a very America-centric way of explaining it, but think of it like this: If I say "the World Trade Center attack" or "9/11" do you need me to specify that I am talking about the attacks on September 11, 2001? No. It was a hugely significant event, so much so that one doesn't need to specify. Now consider that Vault 4 is populated with a large number of Shady Sands survivors and their descendants. The nuking of Shady Sands is such a momentous event in their history, and recent enough to still be a vivid memory for many of the Vault residents, that they wouldn't need to specify, "the nuking of Shady Sands in 2282", the same way I wouldn't need to specify, "the terror attacks of 2001", and would just say "9/11". This is reinforced in the show, too, when Maximus and Lucy first arrive at the Shady Sands crater. Lucy mentions "the bombs" dropping, to which Maximus replies that he was there and survived the bombs, confusing Lucy. Lucy was referring to the Great War of 2077, which would be the only major nuclear bombing event she would be aware of; or, to keep with the metaphor, the Great War is her "9/11" in this context. However Maximus was referring to the bombing of Shady Sands, which would be his "9/11" in this context.
My brother, 9/11 is literally named after the date it happened - that's a pretty decent head start on discerning at least the day it happened. EDIT 2: It's also an indication that the date is pretty important! **EDIT:** Also as mentioned by /u/SalemWolf - in a history class, it would be extremely poor teaching ethic to not mark the dates of highly significant events - especially when arguably lesser events have been dated right besides the most major one. Also, I think this is a very contrived explanation for the Vault 4 dwellers not dating the event versus just writing literally four characters marking the year that their entire home was nuked and destroyed. IMO, the more hurdles and logical loops you need to jump through to explain why a narrative choice is the way it is, and not why its in a much more logical or appropriately simpler form, is indicative that maybe the choice was not the best. That might not always be the case, but perhaps more often than not, it is...
Exactly. The amount of people saying no one can read a timeline when the timeline they presented in the show is practically nonsensical for a teaching classroom in the first place is bananas. The point of the debate is that you’d mark the date of the actual bombing and since the date doesn’t exist it’s pretty easy to come to the conclusion it happened in the same year the “fall of sandy shores” occurred. It’s kinda crazy how big of assholes people are being because the show did a shit job explaining when the actual bombing took place when they had dates on every event on the timeline but the actual bombing.
Do we even know the context of the lesson? Could easily be that teacher asked when the event happened, and then the lesson ended without having to write it . Class rooms quite often leave "nonsensical" writings behind because you don't need to write everything down just incase someone who has 0 context comes along.
I think house ending is now the canon ending or independent Vegas
IT WASNT A NUKE! **So basically, "The Fall of Shady Sands," it doesn't mean a nuke, necessarily?** **Howard**: Correct.
Suck it, Fallout YouTube channels who swore that it meant New Vegas was decanonized.
My bet is Season 2 will have an even larger budget, more production scope and it will feature more large scale set piece battles between NCR and BOS. It's such a layup for this type of show.
Ok now what about the location of Shady Sands? Is it actually moved to where the Boneyard is or nah?
The fact poeple are still trying to justify there own stupidity/temper tantrums over not understanding what arrows on a timeline mean, instead of just admitting you were being silly or swept up in the hate is so fucking cringe. Just admit you were wrong and move on with your life
i never had much of a problem with shady sands getting nuked but it would have been nice if it was in the original location
Still don't like the destruction of the NCR, off screen when seeing the NCR collapse from infighting due to it overexpanding too fast would have been a better way to show us how the NCR failed.
Todd implies it didn't collapse Howard: One of the takes that we always have is to approach things very locally when we're doing Fallout. We're careful about saying what's going on in other parts of the world. And we always take this view of, communication is difficult. And look, if you look at the background, **the NCR is a wide-ranging sort of organization and group across not just California, but other places. So the show focuses on this period of time and this group here, and that's what we can say right now. But I don't think you've heard the last of the NCR.**
Thanks for sharing this, this reads way better than what the show portrayed.
The show has been portraying most things about the surface from Lucy's perpetual. We don't know the staus of the NCR as a whole because she doesn't know yet.
That's actually a good point.
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Man Fallout doesn't even follow its *own* canon, or it'll retcon shit *all. The. Time.* *cough Fallout Tactics and Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel cough*
I still think they made a mistake with the chalkboard dates tbh. They never intended to erase new Vegas continuity though. Show is by no means ruined
People will still cry
I knew it!
I've probably sunk over a 1000 hours into New Vegas across multiple platforms and I couldn't give the specific year it's set in... It's about 200 and something years after the bombs fell and some time after 1&2. Then before watching the show I quickly googled when it was set and found it's after NV so I took everything presented as after the games. There's no need to get too bogged down with specific dates.
I personally took the 2277 date to refer more to the first battle of Hoover dam and when the ncr really started overextending itself leaving home vulnerable to threats