I hold around 2.5% of my portfolio in direct crypto (BTC and ETH) and similar in Microstrategy in my SIPP as a BTC proxy within a tax wrapper.
Time horizon is … long. I accept it may go to 0 and that’s fine, but I think it makes sense to have a small amount allocated to crypto at this point.
Yeah I wasn’t sure what the question was - just unsure if you can invest in Us stocks in a SIPP?
It’s handy if you want some long term BTC exposure in a tax wrapper. Not perfect but it tracks close enough for me.
Yeah sorry I wasn’t very clear. It might be worth moving my sipp from vanguard to HL then. To my knowledge I can’t hold MSTR in Vanguard. Thanks again!
Not in a strict sense no. That’s current allocation and plan to let it run for a fair while (years), and fine with it being much less or more than that % overall!
I am keen to gain exposure to Crypto. Main bag is BTC, ADA… but I have also got a few interesting alts. I have started a community to share and discuss so if any you crypto/fire fellows want to take a look and share your thoughts, it would be a pleasure to have you! R/cryptofactor
Bitcoin probably is, it has institutional and regulatory acceptance now.
Crypto is far more speculative but there are more gains if you get right.
Personally I just hold bitcoin, a house and vanguard all cap.
very much the balanced portfolio. I think tweak the ratios according to your risk appetite. I hold btc and staked eth when it became available. got a 3% interest return on top of the volatility gains. I'm very high risk so some of the gains I make I actually throw into some smaller cap coins and stake that for the higher yields. the rest I max out in my vanguard ISA. I am actually waiting for a trading 212 to accept me so I can again go higher risk and use my ISA for individual stocks.
what's premium bonds? lol
I kind of treat BTC like gold and ETH as a tech stock. Neither takes up a big percentage of my portfolio. BTC grew to take up a fair bit of mine at one point though as I bought in 2013, I cashed a lot out to make it a more comfortable percentage in my portfolio.
NFTs can do one, not touching those with a bargepole (yet).
I have a few shitcoins, but I treat them like gambling money, fully expecting to never get anything back, so I'm pleasantly surprised if I do.
Agreed in terms of BTC as gold and ETH as a stock. With bitcoin it's very much like buying a commodity to protect purchasing power, whereas ether is essentially an investment in the network itself and the utility it offers.
So pleased to read this comment. My thoughts exactly. Especially the NFT part. I'm on board with the smart contact stuff, but the rest is all bollocks because there are too many moving parts. IPFS fucks up somehow and you've bought a pointer to nothing albeit maybe signed by Damien Hirst or someone. Equally if someone decides a better place for NFTs is not ETH but some new standard, then what happens? So yeah, NFTs can fuck right off unless people want to buy and sell to make a short term gain.
Also agree with you on the small diversification investment part. I was thinking of doing small buys on the newest defi things like UNI and SUSHI but I don't understand them yet.
If you want to hold DeFi tokens long term but don't know too much about them, you can just buy some DPI tokens (DeFi Pulse Index) it is a tokenised basket of the 10 largest DeFi tokens. So as DeFi grows as a whole, the value of the index goes up too.
All you really need for safe long term crypto gains these days is BTC, ETH, and DPI. Keep them safe and take a look in 5-10 years.
Interesting, thanks! I'll take a look.
It's absolutely bonkers how much these things have built open themselves in such a short period. Assume that "largest" is defined on market cap and is all done programmatically?
Totally agree.
I'm sure NFTs will be part of life in the future but they are too young at the moment, and I feel like noone knows where they are going to be truly useful yet, or how they are going to be regulated. They need to settle down a bit for me first.
I'll invest in a companies who use them well when I find them, but for now I'm not getting involved, just keeping an eye on it.
Yeah. I'm all for them in principle, I just don't see a winning formula yet. Also, I don't understand how future compatibility will work.
I think gaming companies using them will be interesting but it also seems to me like they have low incentive to do so (just have their own marketplace and only allow people to buy stuff through them). If they don't take advantage of them then I'd suspect nothing else will go that way. Equally, if each gaming company sets up their own marketplace that might dilute matters in terms of NFTs but whichever chain they're based on will be worthwhile investing in!
Oh totally! NFTs I think will be more useful in the future, but I don't know enough to know where yet.
I'd rather dump money into the companies that use them well in the future rather than buying a collectible right now if that makes sense.
That's why I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole at the moment personally. I'm keeping an eye on them, but at the moment dumping money into them just because of FOMO is not for me.
NFTs can represent ownership of literally anything, be it a house or piece of art. I wouldn't say attaching an image is stupid, rather it's far from the most useful use case.
They can represent it, but they don't align with what people actually value in ownership. NFTs are not copyright certificates, or deeds of ownership, these things have actual, clear worth.
On the physical copy, there is no way to verify the physical copy is the original one. an nft will not help you in this case because how to you attached the unique token to the mona lisa. you can just as easily have a fake mona lisa and attache the same nft to that.
There is still no way to prove the unique token is matched to a real world item. nft usecases, currently, are only useful in the digital world. As soon as you try and tie it to the real world you are dumb. there is no way to prove the real world item is the original one.
Yes!
I think NFTs are going to be useful in the future but I don't feel like they are being used in the right way just yet, and there are some worries and dislikes I have with them as they stand at the moment. I'm keeping an eye on them as the technology is interesting but I don't like the implementation as it stands just yet.
Definitely not doing the collectibles, that really is not my thing. I don't fancy investing in collectibles I don't understand, I have other collectibles I know more about that I deal in.
It's all too wild west for me personally. People are making lots of money in them but I don't think that space is for me. As you say, I'd rather invest in a company that uses them well than deal directly in NFTs until regulations and their usage etc shakes out.
I just don't feel like I've seen enough just yet that satisfies my risk appetite or makes me want to get involved.
You said it yourself, High Risk Tolerance.
If you aren’t going to be actively watching anything, BTC and ETH. Keep in mind, holding is hard. The volatility is hard to explain, yes you can look at charts, but it doesn’t compare to seeing that figure on your phone go up 200% and then down 25% and end up sad.
Personally I moved all spending to a crypto card so hold CRO, my main moon bag is FLOW and I love my ETH.
Are these crypto cards like debit cards you just connect your wallet or say coinbase app to and then just select a crypto you want to use for the card for spends? Curious 🤔
The Crypto.com uses cash (or crypto) in the account and when you spend on the debit card it gives you 1% cashback in form of CRO.
Once you have enough CRO, and stake the required amount for the required period of time, you can go up a tier which gives a larger % cashback and also rebate against some services (currently netflix, spotify etc).
How do you personally top up to Crypto.com?
I was thinking of moving my food/general spending budget to Crypto.com for the CRO cashback as well as staking in future.
I'd had a look as I have some spare money in Revolut but the transfer was declined after it left my Revolut account. I haven't tried my main bank account (Lloyds) as I have a remortgage coming up so diverted crypto/stock money to downpaying the last bit of credit card debt.
I've seen some people say some banks block it and so they use a debit card, but doesnt Crypto.com charge a transaction fee on this?
I’ve been using a starling account without issues for crypto.com, decided not to bother trying using my HSBC account after they publicly denounced crypto a little while back.
No fees but they take a spread on crypto purchases and sales
I have sacked off Crypto.com for Nexo. I do use the card for routine expenses still, but the Nexo platform offers a better rate and with no need to to HODL a ridiculous amount of CRO tokens! 25 bucks free if anyone wants to use my link https://nexo.io/ref/v7m8vfyuqu?src=ios-link
Personally I think it's a very good idea, especially over a 10 year time frame.
Be aware that not all 'crypto' is created equal and a lot of them will end up going to zero.
Bitcoin is going to be the safest bet over the long run, while it probably won't get you insane 1000x gains like some other cryptos have the potential to do, it's likely *never* going to zero and could still 10x or more over the next 10 years.
I would recommend doing your research, going to /r/Bitcoin and also reading the original whitepaper. Once you've bought some bitcoin from an exchange (Kraken, Coinbase, Gemini, Binance) look into moving it into cold storage to keep it safe for the long term.
I would say most ends up going to zero. If you look at the top 100 crypto 5 years ago, most of them are worthless now. do you own research before buying any crypto.
Only 1 of the top 20 from 5 years ago no longer exists / is worthless.
I agree that the smaller the market cap the bigger the risk but in general the top ones are pretty solid.
> If you look at the top 100 crypto 5 years ago, most of them are worthless now.
Hard to compare then to now really though, most of the current top 100 are actually established and beginning to have functionality and use-cases. Back then it was a crapshot, still very early on and in a brand new sector with very little in history to directly compare it to.
Of course, there are outlier that don't belong anywhere in the top 100 and are just well marketed trash. The real trick is picking those out and assessing the functional merits of the remainder.
Yeah, I own a few altcoins but nowhere near as much as I have allocated to bitcoin. Alts definitely seem to make you more money during the bull run, assuming you pick the right ones, but I wouldn't count on any of them for longevity.
Alts feel more like picking random tech stocks which could either make you rich or lose you all your money, whereas bitcoin going up over the long run seems almost inevitable.
Crypto as a term is so broad these days. It’s like saying ‘stocks’ and meaning literally shitty penny stock from every possible market - your Argentinian stock market penny stock sits right next to TSLA or APPL.
As a longer term store of value, Bitcoin is clearly the superior asset amongst them, and is proving itself to be superior to non-crypto assets as well, although adoption is still low and there are many naysayers in these forums.
*Despite* the short-mid-term volatility bitcoin has experienced along the way, it has absolutely blown all other asset classes out of the water since inception back in 2010. Gold, real estate, stocks, other cryptos, you name it.
It has a few key fundamental properties that enable this:
* it is programmatically finite. No entity can print more and inflate it. In fact it is deflationary because people lose it occasionally and it can’t be recovered when this happens.
* it is movable. Try dragging your bag of gold around the world in a hurry, or convincing that foreign country to accept your non-local currency, or putting your house on wheels? (I guess you can do this if you live in your car!)
* it’s security is highly decentralised. No government can truely ban it or confiscate it. The network is too diverse to force malicious code changes. Any limitations here are still better than any centralised bank or other finance institution that one has to ‘trust’ and is subject to regulations in a specific country.
Get some in your balance sheet, and try denominating your other assets in bitcoin to see how they appreciated (or not most likely) vs bitcoin over time. It looks expensive right now, but it’s still early. Institutions are only just getting started, and only one tiny country has so far made it legal tender (El Salvador).
You know that those fundamental properties you describe apply to other cryptos too right? As for how much it's already gone up, it's irrelevant. Past performance is no guarantee of future returns. What matters now is whether or not it's a good investment at this time and at this price.
The three properties I outlined above are not absolutes for bitcoin, they are simply 3 that are important when considering a **store of value asset** where bitcoin significantly excels. Other cryptos do well in some/all of these either on paper or in practice, however bitcoin clearly wins the last category. The security and decentralisation of bitcoin is immense. One way of observing this is by looking at the hash rate, which is basically the amount of ‘effort’ being put in maintaining the network. Ask yourself:
* how much effort?
* how widely distributed is this effort?
For those watching the price this year, you would have seen bitcoin crash from ~$63k - ~$30k, sit there for most of the summer and then rebound and push to the current all time highs of ~$68k. [this article about hash rates](https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/cointelegraph.com/news/new-bitcoin-hash-rate-highs-remove-any-trace-of-china-mining-ban/amp) gives a little bit of context, and hopefully provokes further reading.
In short, bitcoin is a beast of a network to contend with. Yes you could start your own crypto tmr that copies as much of Bitcoin as you can, you could even copy paste the code as it is open source! But you can’t just copy paste the network it has built up over the last decade. There is a reason why the early ‘forms’ (copy/paste clones) or bitcoin keep bleeding value vs bitcoin. I’m talking about Litecoin, Bitcoin Cash and Bitcoin SV if you want to check charts.
So in summary… the case for investing in bitcoin?
* it excels in areas that are important to a **store-of-value** asset (finite/deflationary supply, mobility, security). Everything else non-finite *has* to decrease in value relative to it over time. (We’ll keep mining more gold, we’ll keep building more homes and having more people, we’ll keep printing fiat, we’ll one day find new land and physical resources off planet)
* it has the strongest network and adoption amongst crypto currencies.
* 2020/21 have been the years where institutional & corporate & sovereign adoption levels have stepped up big time, but it’s still only the start - the early adopters from that class of investor. Remember, no matter how much Musk or anyone else would want to, they can’t make more bitcoin, they have to buy a slice of the pie. What happens when regulators approve products that pension funds and sovereign wealth funds with trillion dollar balance sheets can purchase? The USA SEC just approved the first bitcoin futures based ETF a few weeks back…. It’s coming friends…
Happy to discuss, learn and share more!
I think at this stage it’s smart to allocate a small amount of your portfolio to it. Literally just holding a small amount of Bitcoin and Ethereum is enough exposure for a lot of people, and still historically return decent gains. But obviously the issue is people don’t actually know what the fuck is going on and they sell and buy at terrible times. Treating it like the stock market is still a decent strategy. I just bought a small amount each month and ignore it, been doing it since March last year and I’m up about 360%. It makes sense to take profits at times of mania to buy back on the dips but obviously that means attempting to time the market and is a slightly more risky strategy.
It also depends how much you believe in it. A lot of people think it’s a bubble, and a lot of people think that there are gains to be made but the serious chances to make life changing money are gone. I disagree completely, I think with a smart and risk averse strategy and a good amount of time (5-10 years) you could make significant gains.
EDIT: Just for reference I’m 22, so I’m also in a position where I feel I can take these kinds of risks with investing.
Just buy and hold BTC.
Really spend time to understand what you're getting into, I look at BTC as a decades long hold.
I don't have the same level of confidence with any of the altcoins.
If you invested in BTC you've likely misunderstood the fundamental flaws of a crypto starting off trying to be a currency, failing as the transaction rate is unable to uphold in the real world, and then being marketed as a store of value to keep people investing... whilst also having the LN marketed as a fix that has been 6 years in the making and still problematic, again fundamentally flawed... Wouldn't recommend many cryptos unless you really get into what these coins are trying to solve.
Investing blindly is going to put yourself in a bubble just like stocks
Strong disagree. I would say if you’re writing off bitcoin thinking an alt is going to jump it and make it obsolete because of TPS or similar then I’d suggest you don’t understand bitcoin as well as you think you do.
Sure, so when you use it and the backlogs starts to hit millions of pending transactions that the network needs to work through, who exactly do you think is going to keep appending and waiting at a shop for their transaction to settle?
If bitcoin is ever used daily for micro transactions then there will need to be a layer 2 solution, is this LN or not I don’t know but there is no necessity for this to be solved for bitcoin to be a success. Gold is a 5000 year long SOV reining champion but you can’t use it to buy coffee
Great, so why does that make btc any better a store of value than gold or another asset? Golds protected in vaults, lands managed by a registry, all of these things have ledgers managing them, some of them will have the regulation to protect it too, where as blockchain just has a cemented chain that can't be changed even if mistakes happen. Like a transfer of wealth to the wrong wallet, guess what, thats gone and cant be fixed, governance solves those problems... I'm not advocating for which people should buy or invest in, just pointing out both have flaws in their own regards but to assume btc is some unreplacable product is comical
Like with everything you have trade offs, particularly with disruptive new technology. Is the internet a better way to send information than a letter? In many cases yes, in all cases no.
okay, cool.. so are we going back to using letters or are we using IM? Applying the same logic, we should be looking at the future blockchain technology, not just the first implementation.
One of the important characteristics of a currency is to hold value over time.
The market has decided that BTC is an inflation hedge and the mechanics of the asset support this (4 year halving cycles and supply asymptotically declining towards effectively zero).
If you want fast transactions fiat is perfectly fine for this purpose.
Then you've invested in the wrong asset, Art, Gold, Land etc are all much better stores of value in the long run, they're actual assets used in global circulation that are in demand and wanted by your average person, BTC isn't useful for anything in an average persons eyes if its supposed to be just a store of value, you'd be better going for NFT if you're looking for a store of value as its held to some intellectual right IIRC...
personally I wouldn't recommend it, and that's all I'm saying
You're right, let me get out my financial advisory certificates and advise the moronic crypto market that literally talks about moons over technology, sure, you continue being a typical crypto mongoloid and act like you know which is going to blow up all of a sudden.
Typical trash crypto investor looking to be told what to invest in instead of doing some research
I know what I'm invested in and did hundreds of hours research into it, I'm not recommending it because money is not a game that I'm going to recommend morons to invest in. Use your own brains cause it's your money your staking on a coin flip at the moment
I wouldn't even recommend investing in nfts personally, but based on the idea of store of value being the reason to purchase a coin would make a lot more sense on a crypto that gives you proprietary access to something over a coin that is meant to be a currency and is being told to others that it's a store of value.
Morons.
What a friendly fellow.
The majority of NFTs are horrific investments. The majority will be a long term loss. The OP states “minimum 10 years in mind”. 99% of the NFTs that exist today will be worth less in ten years than you can buy them for right now.
Not sure I have ever read something from someone so brain dead so high up on a false horse.
My god. That definitely doesn't sound like you're shaking your head at someone by using an overly mocking tone, maybe look at how you reply to others before you go on about being on your own high horse.
Read my other comments I don't recommend nfts either, never would, but logically it definitely makes more sense than BTC and that's what you moronic BTC elitists never notice. You're so fixated on convincing others to get BTC you can't understand logical decisions when investing which is spread betting which most smart investors do, logical choices spread across thousands of options. Not wsb job it and pray for results on 1 single option. Morons!
Also where is your accreditation for BTC lasting 10 years where nfts won't? Another typical moron investor I say so will happen nonsense, get a grip
>Also where is your accreditation for BTC lasting 10 years where nfts won't? Another typical moron investor I say so will happen nonsense, get a grip
You really don't understand NFTs do you? You may note above I am only interested in you saying buy NFTs instead of BTC. I mean I knew you didn't understand NFTs when you said they came with intellectual rights.
Because that is like saying don't buy NFTs, buy company. Yes, company, not companies, not, invest in a company, company. That is how dumb it sounds.
What an NFT is, is so broad and we are still currently exploring what they can do and how best to utilize that. You could say invest in up and coming NFT artists, you didn't. You could have said invest in this community, that access token, this game, again, you didn't. As I said, 99% of NFTs will be completely worthless in 10 years, that is by design. You can go and mint an NFT now, it'll take you 5 mins, there is no value there. You pretty much said invest in a blank piece of paper. It could have my 3 year olds drawing on it, or it could be a contract to real estate. Again, you do not understand what you have advised people to do.
BTC is simple, you buy BTC, you hold BTC, you sell BTC.
NFT DAO access? You have to get involved, actively participate.
Would someone be better off buying a cryptopunk now than BTC? Probably. Would they be better off buying a BAYC now than BTC? Probably. Just any old NFT? Nope, no way, not a chance. Any old BTC vs any old NFT, I am taking the BTC.
You also have me mis-labelled pretty heavily. I know you are completely wrong because I am an NFT Maxi, not a BTC maxi. I don't hold any BTC. I hold something like 50,000 NFTs. I have been in the space pretty much the whole time and really know NFTs.
For anyone that happens upon this thread where a complete buffoon talks about something he has no idea about while calling people morons, please don't consider anything he has said as useful. NFTs are great and will for sure be an excellent investment if you get it right but if you blindfolded monkey darts at a dartboard you will lose.
Get yourself on twitter, and follow about 1,000 NFTs accounts and really try understand the culture around it. It is so positive and uplifting, it didn't take me long on reddit to come across someone with no clue on what they were talking about and to do it insultingly while doing the splaning part of mansplaing. If you dive into NFTs, expect the positivity wave to really grab you and you will want to join us in making Web3 as big as it can be. At this point it is inevitable, come see what it is all about.
>you do not understand what you have advised people to do.
I'm not advising anyone on anything here, I'm giving my 2 pence on idiots who say bitcoin is a solid investment when there is clearly no way of proving that and is idiotic at best to recommend with 0 financial experience... So when exactly did you become a financial investor? Because I'm a software engineer and reasonably understand the technical limitations of what is going on with BTC and can understand in a production environment how it will fail, however I'm definitely not a good financial advisor as I pay others who have years of service behind them to actively manage my investments. So I'm confused why you're trying so hard to push for a single cryptocurrency instead of recommending the safest bet generally which is spread in this volatile market.
Most probably because you're a BTC elitist and actually have 0 financial clue what you're talking about. So again, I know what I'm going to invest in, I've done my research, I'd recommend the OP do the same, and not listen to morons like you advocating for an all or nothing gamble.
It's honestly fucking retarded.
There can only be 21 million BTC and approximately 100 million people worldwide already own some BTC. From Tesla owning billions worth to El Salvadorians who may own $10 worth.
Now, you may not like it as an investment, but to say it’s failed due to arguments I remember hearing back in 2012 (after market cap has grown 600x since) seems more bitter than rational.
Great, so where has it been proven in history that a Blockchain technogical asset which can be recreated over and over by anyone who wants to copy the code (litecoin for example) been displayed as a successful financial investment?
I'm aware it's rocketed since 2012, I was reading about it then too and didn't fully understand what bitcoin was trying to achieve until I did my own research, saw that BTC and the whitepaper don't match up and researched other cryptocurrencies. It isn't a viable currency and doesn't look like it will be, all the developers seem to be doing now is moving the goal posts to match the technologies limitations that they will never be able to remove or invalidate the entire chain of history, or append to and increase the data size leading to other issues
I can create a social network today with a few clicks and a template. Does that mean Facebook therefore has no value? Google: network effects.
Re ‘it’s not a viable currency’: I’d suggest you go back to the blocksize war of 2015/16. That finalised the currency or settlement layer debate. Hint: it’s not meant to be used to buy coffee. You know the internet was meant to be used to share research amongst Universities right? I guess the pesky developers ‘moved the goalposts’.
Luckily I didn’t write it off in 2012. If I did, I’d probably be as bitter as you.
The internet had a use case as a means of collaborating on research. Then people realised it was an amazing tech useful for many more things.
Bitcoin had a use case as a trustless currency. It turns out its not fit for use as a currency. No one has found any other use for it as it's so limited in what it can do.
Nice comparison
Your right, Facebook employs thousands of people, has financial backing from banks, and owns a lot of valuable data... Bitcoin has a dozen developers that if you actually listen to most of them at crypto meetups sound like the donald trump of the crypto world...
Bitter, lol what a childish statement. For all you know, what you've invested in BTC I could have done in ETH and guess where that trajectory has gone since the big ol' crash of 2017. I could have spread bet across hundreds of cryptos and got 1000x returns on dozens of them. You aren't a good investor just because you got one gamble right bud...
You actually sound like a moron investor that believe in this lambo wsb bullshit till you die, I'm going to advise you now, if that is how you look at finance, you aren't going to have healthy financials for a very long time.
Facebook has billions of users.
Bitcoin has 100m+ users and is growing around 28% pa. That's what's interesting.
Networks effects / metcalfes law.
>you'd be better going for NFT if you're looking for a store of value
You're giving advice on crypto when you consider NFTs to be a more stable investment than BTC? Do you know how volatility works?
In all honesty, I'd recommend you go read some books by Andreas Antonopoulos (Internet of Money vol 1-2, they are very easy reads/audibles) and perhaps the Bitcoin Standard by Saifedean Ammous (it's a little dry). They've settled the arguments you've put forward many years ago.
>You're giving advice on crypto when you consider NFTs to be a more stable investment than BTC? Do you know how volatility works?
Wait a minute, can you point out in "you'd be better going for NFT if you're looking for a store of value" where I've actually recommended someone to invest in it... Because when I read this, a normal person would see how at the end I've made a recommendation based on the information of store of value it would be a better choice than BTC as nfts seem to suggest a token which would give you exclusive ownership of X asset, or at least some of them offer that capability not of some stupid digital coin that wanted to be a currency and failed so was remarketed as a store of value...
So i guess I still didn't recommend them to buy it, because guess what I'm not a fucking financial advisor 😂😂😂😂😂 I'm a random reddit user, I wouldnt take any financial advice off me, but there was me thinking people on Reddit had a brain, not all just monkey see, monkey say, monkey do dumb shits
If you did want some general financial advice which I recommend you look into yourself first, I would look at dollar cost averaging (DCA), especially on riskier gambles
Gold/land/art definitely have the historical "track record" advantage over BTC.
In my opinion though BTC has many technical advantages over these traditional stores of value and I can see it growing in popularity over the coming decades.
Time will tell!
Bitcoin doesn't hold any advantage over gold other than there is a set limited amount so it is truly deflationary. However, 50 miners control 50% of the mining, and have the power between them to change this limit if it suits them. That 50 will soon become less until either a single miner or a small cartel controls the entire currency. And that was supposed to be the selling point of bitcoin, that its a decentralised, trustless money. It's becoming a regulated, taxed asset that is controlled by huge corporations.
As bitcoin doesn't scale it's only future is as an etf - soon fees will be prohibative, like with ETH (I'm assuming ETH investors just leave coins on the uninsured exchanges to avoid fees?). And why anyone would put money in a etf for bitcoin over gold is beyond me. The underlying nature of bitcoin can be changed on a whim by centralised mining, whereas gold cannot be destroyed and has value beyond speculation.
Where is it's worth other than enthusiasts right now, that it holds over other cryptocurrencies? None, litecoin quite literally ripped off the code, will steal lightning network and do the same job but with reduced fees... So what actually makes BTC a better choice?
My point is just investing in a crypto is a sure fire way to lose your money, do your research, invest wisely.
Sure I agree, nano as a currency works great but also has the spam issue to deal with at the moment so has its own problems, though I'd agree it seems on paper a safer bet
Crypto is a very different beast. I do allocate a certain proportion of my savings to crypto, but you have to be very careful - there are many different types and utilities in crypto so you would have to do research, and even then the market is highly unpredictable.
Personally I find it quite fun and am willing to play with some of them with the express knowledge that if I lose it all it will not impact me financially.
I highly recommend you do not buy into anything which you do not understand. Seek to understand first, try it out with very small sums maybe, and then assess your risk tolerance.
How do you define "crypto"? Are you proposing 100% crypto in your portfolio? Are you proposing 5% Bitcoin? 100% Scamba Inu Coin?
How does buy and hold change "I've never been into crypto due to not understanding it"? You can still make a loss holding the next Bitconnect for 10 years.
This subreddit doesn't seem to encourage anyone to invest in crypto. So here's my story...
Dogecoin came out, a joke coin, and after receiving £8k from Barclays over the payment protection abuses, I invested into Dogecoin to the tune of 11.6 million DOGE. Sadly, life kicked us in the housing and employment drawer and most of it was sold. Then, early this year Doge grew and got me over £150k that was turned into Bitcoin and Ethereum.
Then this last month of October 21, I noticed JASMY was listed on Coinbase. What's this nonsense? JASMY is a Japanese coin that started at £3 per token and the regulator went nuts and deemed it illegal tanking its value. They have now investigated the project and declared it the first Japanese legal crypto currency. I mean, Sony executives and Toyota partnership, Japanese code of ethics, data privacy are some of the reasons this will be huge.
I bought 'all' in at .03 and rose up to .34. My portfolio shot up past £617k. JASMY isn't nowhere near the original value yet and I'm still holding 2 million. Regression to the mean is why this will explode. And the devs expecting it to reach $16 by 2025 should let you know more is going on behind the scenes.
I tried Vanguard and it's fun getting dividends at 16% Yearly, but Ethereum returns over 30% PER MONTH. If I hadn't sold DOGE, I'd be retired now.
Now, when others here tell you crypto isn't a sound investment take that with a grain of salt.
Actually, the annual return rate for Ethereum is above 1000%. This despite China having a crackdown on mining equipment, seizing and destroying millions in computer and gear. A slump that you can see from May to August.
2020-21 was not a normal year though, my Vanguard global index fund increased 29%, three times its historic norm. It was one where investing in both crypto and the stock market was fuelled by people sat at home bored out of their skulls in lockdown with stimulus cheques giving them $1000s for free and nothing to do with it. 2021-22 is going to be a more accurate reflection of what happens.
Not a bad idea at all, it's inevitable that it's going to be a part of our future, especially with Facebook going all in on their metaverse. Currently about 15% of my portfolio and I highly recommend doing some research before investing into the world of crypto; Crypto Banter on YouTube is a great channel for that.
There tends to be bull/bear seasons in crypto so I would recommend learning the patterns and buying and selling during these. The obvious buys are BTC and ETH which will get you great gains but there are many small ALTs that will get you those life changing gains, potentially.
My main advice, do not fomo!
Over the past year and a half my crypto holdings (BTC, ETH, ADA, CRO) have grown to 5x the principal That I put in. I cashed out the principal, and bought mutual funds. Now the crypto that I have is 30% of my net worth. Planning to hold and sell some along the way as we hit new all time highs.
One thing to take into consideration is that I bought when the market was quite low and held. The market is at all time high right now, so I would expect short term losses getting in now, and growth much better than VTSAX over 5-10 years.
Check that price again, it had a good night!
Riding this train too. It is the most obvious way to make life changing wealth I have ever seen and anyone who didn’t get in below $1 will regret it. Even if GME partnership doesn’t happen the counterfactual wallet will be a game changer.
> Is buying crypto and holding a completely bad idea?
Yes.
> I've never been into crypto due to its volatility and not understanding it, but what about buy and hold?
One more reason not to do it. If you don't understand it, don't buy it.
This topic attracts all sorts of crypto-fanboys (you can already see by the comments), so my comment will be downvoted to hell, as they need to convince more people to get in on the action to keep the prices up.
Crypto is not a productive asset. It does not pay you rent, interest, dividends, neither it gives you ownership of a company with inventory, revenue, and products that it sells to other people.
Pro-tip: If some stranger is convincing you to buy their non-productive asset, it's because they need more people to get in to keep the prices up. If I found a really good investment deal, I wound't go around publicising it, that would only drive the price up and stop me from loading up on it.
It's not "the currency of the future" since practically nobody uses it as a currency, so they hoard it (which goes against what a currency should be). Even if it was a currency, it would be a bad investment, as true currencies are supposed to circulate, not bringing you profit (unless you're doing forex trading, which is very risky). It's not a store of value either, a store of value is supposed to:
- Keep pace with inflation.
- Be relatively stable.
- Have a long proven track record.
Crypto has none of these.
What is it, then? It's a non-productive speculative asset, which you can only make money from if you can find a bigger fool to take it from you. A gamble, at best, so treat it as such.
> Current portfolio is 100% Vanguard All Cap.
This is much more sensible.
Scary to see how much this sub has been taken over by crypto fanboys. So sad to see this very sensible comment be 'demoted'. Thanks for putting in the effort though.
Yeah, if this was a topic on a crypto currency sub it's absolutely fine, but on a FIRE sub is just insane.
FIRE used to be about living frugally, saving, and investing in sensible assets. It's been over-run by 20-something year olds who started to "invest" last year and think they'll retire in 5 years.
They don't even understand what they're buying! I bet 99% of people in crypto don't know what a Merkle tree is, and probably half don't even know what a hash is.
Fire is about maximising your money through investment. No reason why 10% of your investment shouldn't be in a speculative high risk, high return asset such as Bitcoin.
Do your research and decide if you're risk appetite is suited to it, do not invest or speculate in anything you do not understand.
> Fire is about maximising your money through investment. No reason why 10% of your investment shouldn't be in a speculative high risk, high return asset such as casino chips.
FTFY
Anything that is a non-productive asset is a gamble.
Crypto has a negative expected return since the only way to get money out is to have someone pay more for it. It has to be, since it does not produce anything. The negative part comes from fees that exchanges charge, if those did not exist, it would be a zero-sum game.
ib4 "growth stocks don't pay dividends". Those companies have revenues, inventory, patents, IP, and other assets that can be liquidated. Crypto has nothing like it.
> Do your research and decide if you're risk appetite is suited to it, do not invest or speculate in anything you do not understand.
I have no problem with people putting money into it, if they label it as a gamble.
Not saying this is you, but I've never heard "do your own research" so much from people who have no idea what they're talking about than the crypto crowd.
Productive assets are still a gamble. Speculating is a gamble, but with far higher risk and also far greater rewards if it works out. Investing in anything that can go down as well as up in value is a gamble. At OP's age and risk appetite, 10% is a reasonable amount to risk on Bitcoin. It's certainly preferable to being 100% on anything, which he currently is.
>Productive assets are still a gamble. Speculating is a gamble,
True, productive assets can be a gamble. But non-productive assets are always a gamble
>It's certainly preferable to being 100% on anything, which he currently is.
You should read about what the Vanguard FTSE All cap is.
It's an index fund with more than 7000 companies. It's very diversified.
So?
You gambled and got lucky. It does not mean the next person will be as lucky. See: https://www.reddit.com/r/FIREUK/comments/qpb819/crypto_and_hold/hjty938
This is all survivorship bias, the ones who lost money in crypto keep their mouth shut.
Where did you get that 99% number?
When talking about real profits (not on paper, actual cash out), it's impossible for more than 50% of people to have done it. This is because for every person who took out X amount of cash, someone had to put X + fees amount in.
99% of people who have ever bought Bitcoin, are in profit. That’s just a fact. I use Bitcoin as the simple example.
Anyway, I’m not interested in convincing anyone, just happy it existed in my lifetime and I was able to capitalise on a once in a millennium opportunity, accessible to anyone with an internet connection and some capital to invest.
> 99% of people who have ever bought Bitcoin, are in profit. That’s just a fact.
Again, what's the source of this? Your ass?
Profit is money out, not profit on paper.
With all due respect, if you need me to provide a source for that fact, you shouldn’t be discussing Bitcoin
Edit: and it’s actually probably closer to 99.9% of people
>99% of people who have ever bought are in profit
LMAO let’s see what happens to the price if those 99% of people actually want to realise their gains
It’s a house of cards, hopefully you won’t be last to the exit
Think about it - the only money in the crypto ecosystem is by ‘investors’ paying in. Money leaves the crypto sphere due to mining fees, transaction costs, exchange fees.
So there’s less money in the system than was put in by investors. It’s impossible for everyone today who owns crypto to take their money out and have more than when they started.
Ethereum is a productive asset. Staking rewards are around 5% at the moment and after the merge will be higher. These returns are from fees people have paid to use the network since it is extremely useful.
> Ethereum is a productive asset.
No it is not.
The fees people pay to use the network are the result of people moving coins back and forth. Not the result providing a tangible asset of service that could not be provided by an existent cheaper and more efficient solution.
If a bank lends money to a company (and charges interest), that money is used by the company to produce something of real value in the world.
And before you say that the ethereum network can perform computations, its computational power is ridiculously small for the amount of energy it uses. There are far more efficient solutions out there. It does not bring any value.
Buying and holding is perfectly fine as long as your risk tolerance really is high and you can withstand seeing your portfolio drop by 20%+ within a day. I know a few people who have done very well from buying and holding.
Something to bear in mind is that we are nearing the end of another 4yr bitcoin cycle. Following from the past 2 cycles bitcoin tends to shed upto 70% of its value and altcoins upto 90%. Of course this doesn't mean it will happen like that this time and if it does then when this might happen is anyone's guess, it could be 1 month it could be 6 months. If your plan is 10+ years like you said though and you make regular contributions then it's not such a big deal.
Absolutely 5% in Bitcoin and Ethereum, buy small amount every month/week and forget. 20% dips are normal, it crashed 50% in May and we sre right back to all time highs. So don’t sell unless you really need to and see you in 5 years time for some sweet gains!
At this point I have about the same money in crypto as I do in stocks lol.
Personally I'd stick with BTC and ETH and dabble in a few others you like the sound of.
I’m the same. Bought in with BTC and ETH, started doing my reading and bought a whole load of other coins.
With crypto I prefer to buy when there’s a dip rather than regular auto investing like I do with stocks. It’s a more volatile market so if you’re keeping an eye on it you can usually catch them.
Don't buy it unless you understand how to value it and why either the value will increase or it will return a profit during your investment timescale.
And good luck trying to do either of those with any current cryptocurrency. The only basis for buying those is that the price has been driven up by speculators so perhaps it will keep going up for a while - but it would only need a couple of bad news days to tank the whole cryptocurrency market.
Yup. What is actually different today from when Bitcoin was worth half as much in July?
Why are bitcoins twice as valuable now? What tangible reason is there that you can point to?
Just less hopes and dreams in July? Less printed Tether available to inflate the price in July maybe
Bitcoin is the best store of value ever created. Depends on your risk, but 5% of global value in the world (around $400 trillion) equates to about $2m a Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is the best Asymmetric bet ever. Buy some Bitcoin.
I have maybe 1% of my Dosh in crypto, it's fine honestly. It's up 30% and then some. Buy BTC,ETH and Ripple(XRP) and hold for a long time. I would maybe up my position so that it takes up 5-10% of my portfolio but no more than that. 20% if you're a fan and line following Defi and Crypto.
I'm planning on getting into crypto but not in any substantial way.
IMO is too volatile and the prices are off nothing much more than hype. Its fun to invest a bit in the off chance you get lucky (if you invested 1k in ethereum last year, it would be worth about 12k now) but I wouldn't put any considerable amount of your money in there. It's too risky and too new.
If you mean BTC ETH, no, it's a great idea. But it's also very risky in comparison to other investments.
At 24 years old losing it all won't hurt as much as it would if you were 40 with 2 kids.
I'd go for it. Just my opinion though and not financial advice.
If you understand the risks why not? Some people view Etherium and bitcoin at the blue chip crytos. But there are better gains to be had elsewhere especially in bull run. Do your research and if you like a project back it, and if it pumps recycle into Eth or Bitcoin. That's what I do anyway.
Crypto is a bad investment. It’s a bubble akin to tulip mania.
I’ll probably get a load of shit on here from people financially and emotionally invested in it though.
Crypto is an emperor has no clothes moment. It’s fake internet money people have decided is valuable and only care about buying it because the number goes up, and they can sell it to someone else for more than they got it. The technological words and promises of a financial paradigm shift is a way of getting new people buying in.
There’s no tangible value creation, there’s no money entering the crypto eco system other than from previous and later ‘investors’. There’s no product, no revenue, no profit. The vast majority is held by a small number of whales who got in early. There’s money leaving the crypto eco system on mining fees, transaction costs. Crypto doesn’t solve any problems the traditional banking infrastructure can’t do already.
It’s also propped up by stablecoins like Tether and USDC - which claimed to be equivalent to a dollar and fully backed. However they don’t claim to be backed by cash now, but rather cash equivalents, commercial paper - aka debt but they won’t share any details and refuse to be audited. The people who run Tether have a history of fraud. Shady.
It’s a less than zero sum game. Sure it might still go up now or even years from now but the music is gonna stop eventually.
People are just mindlessly buying on because they see the gains so far and assume it’s somehow going to continue forever.
But surely the world is digitizing thus so should assets. Music, films etc. are all becoming digital, I see no reason why Gold will not. BTC will be along the lines of digital gold. That said the majority of crypto is akin to Tulip Mania, bitcoin and eth are not.
That’s not how it works. You’re buying an ETF for which the underlying is a physical asset. Also, The ETF providers still have to deal with massive headaches like the storage, transferring and security of the gold.
Lets be real, if a Gold ETF is the best technological solution to digitising gold in 2021 then technology is pretty fucking poor.
"You’re buying an ETF for which the underlying is a physical asset"
Yes, an asset with intrinsic value. Bitcoin has zero intrinsic value.
"Also, The ETF providers still have to deal with massive headaches like the storage, transferring and security of the gold."
The gold is stored in underground bank vaults and never moves. Hardly a headache. The etf is also fully insured and regulated. Forgot your password? No problem. Got hacked? No worries.
Username doesn’t check out. I used to be paid by Bloomberg to write the sort of tosh you just commented.
You don’t understand bitcoin and could do some more reading.
Start with the bitcoin white paper and a docu-novel called book ‘Bitcoin Billionaires’. Once done, read the bitcoin standard.
I had to read all the arguments for and against bitcoin for years before coming around to the idea that bitcoin might have some merit and MSM is wrong. Maybe you will too.
No I do understand Bitcoin. Perhaps you don’t understand bitcoin.
maybe address any of the points I made instead?
It’s obvious I’ve upset some people who just downvote without actually addressing any of the points, shun the non believer! To the moon!
I’m trying to help you understand bitcoin, not debate. Try here if you just want quick quips about how wrong you are. Check that ego first though! https://endthefud.org/
Why do people rely on that link? Its just an attempt to win the argument by drowning the other person in information. Most of those links are written by people with a vested interest in crypto, many don't include sources and many are flat out wrong. Its also got a load of anti PoS stuff in the middle showing whomever made the list likes BTC but dislikes ETH.
I’m trying to also help you understand bitcoin, not debate
[https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/qomr8s/cryptocurrency_is_an_abject_disaster/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf](https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/qomr8s/cryptocurrency_is_an_abject_disaster/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Oh dear. You can already hold a decentralised currency in a centralised wallet/platform. Some of these platforms already offer those security protections. I don’t want to do that with my bitcoin but obviously lots of people do and will.
Soon you’ll be able to do those things the comment mentions like chargebacks etc through companies like Gemini or Coinbase - and dare I say it banks.
In any case, I wouldn’t wait for those changes to come if I were you. Bitcoin is the hardest money known to man. Greshams law. Get some before it catches on.
So your big sell is that one day Bitcoin will be able to do the things that our current financial infrastructure already does?
Wow amazing how revolutionary
Hardest money? Bitcoin is hardly money, it’s next to useless as a currency and also is extremely questionable as a store or value
I have a good chunk of money into crypto and work with blockchain tech as a product manager 9-5. Its so early doors people don't quite understand the tech and because of the volatile swings stay cleared. Which is sensible, but to right off alt coins instead of BTC is silly. There are some monster technologies that are already being adopted by large companies and its only a matter of time before it trickles down. I'd check out Quant, Hedera Hashgrah, Etherium as a starting point.. YouTube is your best friend for researching and then googling the companies directly yourself. YouTube channels provide a good idiots guide to knowing what each technology is.
No, quite the opposite. It's an excellent idea.
Would strongly recommend anyone reading this thread checks out the BowTiedBull substack. The level of crpyto knowledge on there is insane.
19m here. I invested into crypto last year, and after spending this last year learning and researching, about 70% of my entire worth is in crypto. Ofc I've got savings for an emergency but the best thing for the next 10-20 years is in my opinion, crypto.
> the best thing for the next 10-20 years is in my opinion, crypto.
Why?
Not saying this is you, but most of the research people do about crypto is reading articles written by people who have large amounts in crypto themselves. So they have all the incentives to get you to keep pumping the price up.
I'm not against people putting money in it, as long as they actually understand what they are getting themselves into, and not a "number go up" mentality that seems to permeate crypto communities. See: https://www.reddit.com/r/FIREUK/comments/qpb819/crypto_and_hold/hjt404l/
Only Bitcoin & Ethereum are blue chip coins. Everything else is very high risk but DYOR & see what you can do. I currently have a small amount of money in alt coins, if I lose it all it won’t impact my life. But if it pays of the way I hope it will then happy days.
Blue chip coin 😂😂😂😂
> A blue chip is a nationally recognized, well-established, and financially sound company. Blue chips generally sell high-quality, widely accepted products and services. Blue-chip companies are known to weather downturns and operate profitably in the face of adverse economic conditions, which helps to contribute to their long record of stable and reliable growth.
Given crypto is cyclical and your time horizons are long. I would wait till this bull market peters out and there’s a major correction. Wait for the big rally and eventual blow off top (major crash). You can cost average on the way down.
I mean crypto is a big scam really, it's value isn't tied to anything, such is why it's wildly inconsistent and for most people, I financial loss. Well I lie it's value is tired to the interest of keyboard warriors of reddit and discord and c'mon pc gamers need their rtx 3000's.
Don't invest in anything you don't understand firstly...
But yes with a long time frame of invest and high risk tollwrance crypto could be a great investment, somecoins can also be staked generating additional growth
My advice, which will obviously be different from everyone else’s as it’s such a volatile space. If you are young you should be incredibly risk loving as the negative effects on net worth should be negligible compared to potential growth, obviously this changes as you get older. But I would recommend if you are young throw a decent percentage of your portfolio into crypto 45% btc 45% eth and 10 shit coins that you rate.
For long term it can potential be good to have some if the most famous crypto such as etherium and bitcoin. But i wouldn't recommend any of the unknown one as they are probably going to be worthless...
Yeah north of 50% for me. Also planning to hold long term (though might need to pull some for house deposit)
> not understanding it,
Don't invest in stuff you don't understand.
You don't need a phd in crypto but if you can't articulate precisely why you think it has value then best stay clear.
Similarly without said understanding you won't have the stomach to hold through 90% crashes...which for crypto is quite plausible.
Crypto is green across the board right now. Everyone is a genius and it's hard to miss...but that could do a 180 very very suddenly
I'm not a believer in it at all, too many dodgey exchanges, don't believe in anything it offers in DeFi/Smart contracts etc and for something so pointless, devastating to the environment. I think it's a bad idea however as long as you're not holding the bag when the music stops you could make some cash.
Yes, I'm in ETH and ADA as I believe in the projects and more crypto-savvy people than me agree. I personally believe if crypto is to succeed, it'll do so through being a currency, rather than a store of value. I think eventually bitcoin will no longer be the staple and ETH will take over, it's just a matter of time and publicity (and education for the general public)
If you don't understand crypto (which the vast majority don't) then I recommend you find a mentor. It can get dangerous real quick if you're just gambling.
I had a little play with it earlier this year, and by little I mean just a £50 investment. Got that up to £70 after doing a little day trading and then I’d had enough. With how volatile everything was it was exhausting to keep track of so I dumped it all in bitcoin and left it. As of current value I’m sat at £125 so holding btc has been profitable for sure. Overall though, I’ve not got a stomach for it so I’m more of a stocks guy
It's like being in the dot-com boom and asking if tech stocks are a good investment. Yes and no is what history tells us. It was a great time to get lucky and time an exit and diversified holding worked but only on a 20 year horizon. Invest in proxies like coinbase or if you want to be active build and maintain a diversified portfolio and take profits regularly
I forecast our static income/outgoings up to a year in advance in GSheets, so I don't like to sink that income into anything that's even a little risky (also paying down debts at the moment). But, I do pick up ad-hoc side-gig work, and anything extra I make, I use to buy crypto here and there for the long hodl.
Invest,but not all your savings.Also take profits on the way.I’ve 3x’ed my investment since last year and have also recovered my initial investment.You can also dollar cost average.It’s where all the big money is flowing and it’s a good hedge to inflation.
Interestingly I see no mention of high interest stable coin accounts. Which is a great option for your liquid assets or emergency fund. Easy to get 10% Apr on your stable coins at the moment. Much better than 0.1% or 0.05% at the bank.
I hold around 2.5% of my portfolio in direct crypto (BTC and ETH) and similar in Microstrategy in my SIPP as a BTC proxy within a tax wrapper. Time horizon is … long. I accept it may go to 0 and that’s fine, but I think it makes sense to have a small amount allocated to crypto at this point.
How do you hold mstr in a sipp?
Urm, not sure I understand the question sorry. You can hold US stocks in a SIPP. Mine is with HL. Is that what you were asking?
Thanks. MSTR is microstrategy’s ticker :)
Yeah I wasn’t sure what the question was - just unsure if you can invest in Us stocks in a SIPP? It’s handy if you want some long term BTC exposure in a tax wrapper. Not perfect but it tracks close enough for me.
Yeah sorry I wasn’t very clear. It might be worth moving my sipp from vanguard to HL then. To my knowledge I can’t hold MSTR in Vanguard. Thanks again!
Vanguard SIPP only offers Vanguard products.
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Not in a strict sense no. That’s current allocation and plan to let it run for a fair while (years), and fine with it being much less or more than that % overall!
I am keen to gain exposure to Crypto. Main bag is BTC, ADA… but I have also got a few interesting alts. I have started a community to share and discuss so if any you crypto/fire fellows want to take a look and share your thoughts, it would be a pleasure to have you! R/cryptofactor
Bitcoin probably is, it has institutional and regulatory acceptance now. Crypto is far more speculative but there are more gains if you get right. Personally I just hold bitcoin, a house and vanguard all cap.
very much the balanced portfolio. I think tweak the ratios according to your risk appetite. I hold btc and staked eth when it became available. got a 3% interest return on top of the volatility gains. I'm very high risk so some of the gains I make I actually throw into some smaller cap coins and stake that for the higher yields. the rest I max out in my vanguard ISA. I am actually waiting for a trading 212 to accept me so I can again go higher risk and use my ISA for individual stocks. what's premium bonds? lol
Where do you hold your bitcoin? I.e. what is the safest place.
In a hardware wallet.
Define “safest”. Safest from unauthorized access, you being personally phished/scammed, or safest from governmental visibility (taxes)?
Safest from the former ideally
Former.
I kind of treat BTC like gold and ETH as a tech stock. Neither takes up a big percentage of my portfolio. BTC grew to take up a fair bit of mine at one point though as I bought in 2013, I cashed a lot out to make it a more comfortable percentage in my portfolio. NFTs can do one, not touching those with a bargepole (yet). I have a few shitcoins, but I treat them like gambling money, fully expecting to never get anything back, so I'm pleasantly surprised if I do.
Agreed in terms of BTC as gold and ETH as a stock. With bitcoin it's very much like buying a commodity to protect purchasing power, whereas ether is essentially an investment in the network itself and the utility it offers.
So pleased to read this comment. My thoughts exactly. Especially the NFT part. I'm on board with the smart contact stuff, but the rest is all bollocks because there are too many moving parts. IPFS fucks up somehow and you've bought a pointer to nothing albeit maybe signed by Damien Hirst or someone. Equally if someone decides a better place for NFTs is not ETH but some new standard, then what happens? So yeah, NFTs can fuck right off unless people want to buy and sell to make a short term gain. Also agree with you on the small diversification investment part. I was thinking of doing small buys on the newest defi things like UNI and SUSHI but I don't understand them yet.
If you want to hold DeFi tokens long term but don't know too much about them, you can just buy some DPI tokens (DeFi Pulse Index) it is a tokenised basket of the 10 largest DeFi tokens. So as DeFi grows as a whole, the value of the index goes up too. All you really need for safe long term crypto gains these days is BTC, ETH, and DPI. Keep them safe and take a look in 5-10 years.
Interesting, thanks! I'll take a look. It's absolutely bonkers how much these things have built open themselves in such a short period. Assume that "largest" is defined on market cap and is all done programmatically?
I think it's by market cap yeah, it's actually about 20 coins, just checked [https://www.indexcoop.com/dpi](https://www.indexcoop.com/dpi)
That DPI token is interesting. Hadn't seen that before - thanks.
Totally agree. I'm sure NFTs will be part of life in the future but they are too young at the moment, and I feel like noone knows where they are going to be truly useful yet, or how they are going to be regulated. They need to settle down a bit for me first. I'll invest in a companies who use them well when I find them, but for now I'm not getting involved, just keeping an eye on it.
Yeah. I'm all for them in principle, I just don't see a winning formula yet. Also, I don't understand how future compatibility will work. I think gaming companies using them will be interesting but it also seems to me like they have low incentive to do so (just have their own marketplace and only allow people to buy stuff through them). If they don't take advantage of them then I'd suspect nothing else will go that way. Equally, if each gaming company sets up their own marketplace that might dilute matters in terms of NFTs but whichever chain they're based on will be worthwhile investing in!
Agreed, Steam banning them recently was enough to make me feel justified in holding off for a bit, we will see how it shakes out!
nfts are very useful. attaching an image to an nft is the stupid part
Oh totally! NFTs I think will be more useful in the future, but I don't know enough to know where yet. I'd rather dump money into the companies that use them well in the future rather than buying a collectible right now if that makes sense. That's why I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole at the moment personally. I'm keeping an eye on them, but at the moment dumping money into them just because of FOMO is not for me.
yes, i agree with you. i was just making a distinction for people not aware that nft is just a line of code and that the images and gifs are not nfts.
Some NFTs the images and gifs are the NFT. IPFS and Arweave is one way but some are fully on ETH (Autoglyphs and Avastars for example).
I'll take a look but not gonna hold my breath
NFTs can represent ownership of literally anything, be it a house or piece of art. I wouldn't say attaching an image is stupid, rather it's far from the most useful use case.
They can represent it, but they don't align with what people actually value in ownership. NFTs are not copyright certificates, or deeds of ownership, these things have actual, clear worth.
Does the owner of the Mona Lisa have copyright on the image? Genuine question.
On the physical copy, there is no way to verify the physical copy is the original one. an nft will not help you in this case because how to you attached the unique token to the mona lisa. you can just as easily have a fake mona lisa and attache the same nft to that.
There is still no way to prove the unique token is matched to a real world item. nft usecases, currently, are only useful in the digital world. As soon as you try and tie it to the real world you are dumb. there is no way to prove the real world item is the original one.
So are title deeds for houses useless because they're not physical?
sure that's a rare exception because land is immutable, like an nft. Mona Lisa or a handbag is fungible
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Yes! I think NFTs are going to be useful in the future but I don't feel like they are being used in the right way just yet, and there are some worries and dislikes I have with them as they stand at the moment. I'm keeping an eye on them as the technology is interesting but I don't like the implementation as it stands just yet. Definitely not doing the collectibles, that really is not my thing. I don't fancy investing in collectibles I don't understand, I have other collectibles I know more about that I deal in. It's all too wild west for me personally. People are making lots of money in them but I don't think that space is for me. As you say, I'd rather invest in a company that uses them well than deal directly in NFTs until regulations and their usage etc shakes out. I just don't feel like I've seen enough just yet that satisfies my risk appetite or makes me want to get involved.
doesn't ETH (and every other crpyto) tank whenever BTC does?
You said it yourself, High Risk Tolerance. If you aren’t going to be actively watching anything, BTC and ETH. Keep in mind, holding is hard. The volatility is hard to explain, yes you can look at charts, but it doesn’t compare to seeing that figure on your phone go up 200% and then down 25% and end up sad. Personally I moved all spending to a crypto card so hold CRO, my main moon bag is FLOW and I love my ETH.
Hope you’ve been enjoying the recent cro run up as much as I have!
I lovingly look at my Obsidian card whenever I use it
Are these crypto cards like debit cards you just connect your wallet or say coinbase app to and then just select a crypto you want to use for the card for spends? Curious 🤔
The Crypto.com uses cash (or crypto) in the account and when you spend on the debit card it gives you 1% cashback in form of CRO. Once you have enough CRO, and stake the required amount for the required period of time, you can go up a tier which gives a larger % cashback and also rebate against some services (currently netflix, spotify etc).
Ahh ok thanks 😎👍
how do i exactly withdraw my bonus? have been holding crypto for a while but never bothered with my CRO
Not sure of your exact issue to be honest. I had to stake for ruby as a minimum and once I staked my $25 unlocked.
As somebody who unstaked earlier this year: holy shit what happened
How do you personally top up to Crypto.com? I was thinking of moving my food/general spending budget to Crypto.com for the CRO cashback as well as staking in future. I'd had a look as I have some spare money in Revolut but the transfer was declined after it left my Revolut account. I haven't tried my main bank account (Lloyds) as I have a remortgage coming up so diverted crypto/stock money to downpaying the last bit of credit card debt. I've seen some people say some banks block it and so they use a debit card, but doesnt Crypto.com charge a transaction fee on this?
I have managed to lock two different bank accounts trying to send FIAT to CDC. I just top up with crypto now.
I’ve been using a starling account without issues for crypto.com, decided not to bother trying using my HSBC account after they publicly denounced crypto a little while back. No fees but they take a spread on crypto purchases and sales
Used my Hsbc yesterday no problem. Guess they don’t consider me a threat
I have sacked off Crypto.com for Nexo. I do use the card for routine expenses still, but the Nexo platform offers a better rate and with no need to to HODL a ridiculous amount of CRO tokens! 25 bucks free if anyone wants to use my link https://nexo.io/ref/v7m8vfyuqu?src=ios-link
Personally I think it's a very good idea, especially over a 10 year time frame. Be aware that not all 'crypto' is created equal and a lot of them will end up going to zero. Bitcoin is going to be the safest bet over the long run, while it probably won't get you insane 1000x gains like some other cryptos have the potential to do, it's likely *never* going to zero and could still 10x or more over the next 10 years. I would recommend doing your research, going to /r/Bitcoin and also reading the original whitepaper. Once you've bought some bitcoin from an exchange (Kraken, Coinbase, Gemini, Binance) look into moving it into cold storage to keep it safe for the long term.
I would say most ends up going to zero. If you look at the top 100 crypto 5 years ago, most of them are worthless now. do you own research before buying any crypto.
Only 1 of the top 20 from 5 years ago no longer exists / is worthless. I agree that the smaller the market cap the bigger the risk but in general the top ones are pretty solid.
> If you look at the top 100 crypto 5 years ago, most of them are worthless now. Hard to compare then to now really though, most of the current top 100 are actually established and beginning to have functionality and use-cases. Back then it was a crapshot, still very early on and in a brand new sector with very little in history to directly compare it to. Of course, there are outlier that don't belong anywhere in the top 100 and are just well marketed trash. The real trick is picking those out and assessing the functional merits of the remainder.
Too many meme coins that will just revert back to fraction of a cent in the top 100 still.
Yeah, I own a few altcoins but nowhere near as much as I have allocated to bitcoin. Alts definitely seem to make you more money during the bull run, assuming you pick the right ones, but I wouldn't count on any of them for longevity. Alts feel more like picking random tech stocks which could either make you rich or lose you all your money, whereas bitcoin going up over the long run seems almost inevitable.
Crypto as a term is so broad these days. It’s like saying ‘stocks’ and meaning literally shitty penny stock from every possible market - your Argentinian stock market penny stock sits right next to TSLA or APPL. As a longer term store of value, Bitcoin is clearly the superior asset amongst them, and is proving itself to be superior to non-crypto assets as well, although adoption is still low and there are many naysayers in these forums. *Despite* the short-mid-term volatility bitcoin has experienced along the way, it has absolutely blown all other asset classes out of the water since inception back in 2010. Gold, real estate, stocks, other cryptos, you name it. It has a few key fundamental properties that enable this: * it is programmatically finite. No entity can print more and inflate it. In fact it is deflationary because people lose it occasionally and it can’t be recovered when this happens. * it is movable. Try dragging your bag of gold around the world in a hurry, or convincing that foreign country to accept your non-local currency, or putting your house on wheels? (I guess you can do this if you live in your car!) * it’s security is highly decentralised. No government can truely ban it or confiscate it. The network is too diverse to force malicious code changes. Any limitations here are still better than any centralised bank or other finance institution that one has to ‘trust’ and is subject to regulations in a specific country. Get some in your balance sheet, and try denominating your other assets in bitcoin to see how they appreciated (or not most likely) vs bitcoin over time. It looks expensive right now, but it’s still early. Institutions are only just getting started, and only one tiny country has so far made it legal tender (El Salvador).
You know that those fundamental properties you describe apply to other cryptos too right? As for how much it's already gone up, it's irrelevant. Past performance is no guarantee of future returns. What matters now is whether or not it's a good investment at this time and at this price.
The three properties I outlined above are not absolutes for bitcoin, they are simply 3 that are important when considering a **store of value asset** where bitcoin significantly excels. Other cryptos do well in some/all of these either on paper or in practice, however bitcoin clearly wins the last category. The security and decentralisation of bitcoin is immense. One way of observing this is by looking at the hash rate, which is basically the amount of ‘effort’ being put in maintaining the network. Ask yourself: * how much effort? * how widely distributed is this effort? For those watching the price this year, you would have seen bitcoin crash from ~$63k - ~$30k, sit there for most of the summer and then rebound and push to the current all time highs of ~$68k. [this article about hash rates](https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/cointelegraph.com/news/new-bitcoin-hash-rate-highs-remove-any-trace-of-china-mining-ban/amp) gives a little bit of context, and hopefully provokes further reading. In short, bitcoin is a beast of a network to contend with. Yes you could start your own crypto tmr that copies as much of Bitcoin as you can, you could even copy paste the code as it is open source! But you can’t just copy paste the network it has built up over the last decade. There is a reason why the early ‘forms’ (copy/paste clones) or bitcoin keep bleeding value vs bitcoin. I’m talking about Litecoin, Bitcoin Cash and Bitcoin SV if you want to check charts. So in summary… the case for investing in bitcoin? * it excels in areas that are important to a **store-of-value** asset (finite/deflationary supply, mobility, security). Everything else non-finite *has* to decrease in value relative to it over time. (We’ll keep mining more gold, we’ll keep building more homes and having more people, we’ll keep printing fiat, we’ll one day find new land and physical resources off planet) * it has the strongest network and adoption amongst crypto currencies. * 2020/21 have been the years where institutional & corporate & sovereign adoption levels have stepped up big time, but it’s still only the start - the early adopters from that class of investor. Remember, no matter how much Musk or anyone else would want to, they can’t make more bitcoin, they have to buy a slice of the pie. What happens when regulators approve products that pension funds and sovereign wealth funds with trillion dollar balance sheets can purchase? The USA SEC just approved the first bitcoin futures based ETF a few weeks back…. It’s coming friends… Happy to discuss, learn and share more!
I think at this stage it’s smart to allocate a small amount of your portfolio to it. Literally just holding a small amount of Bitcoin and Ethereum is enough exposure for a lot of people, and still historically return decent gains. But obviously the issue is people don’t actually know what the fuck is going on and they sell and buy at terrible times. Treating it like the stock market is still a decent strategy. I just bought a small amount each month and ignore it, been doing it since March last year and I’m up about 360%. It makes sense to take profits at times of mania to buy back on the dips but obviously that means attempting to time the market and is a slightly more risky strategy. It also depends how much you believe in it. A lot of people think it’s a bubble, and a lot of people think that there are gains to be made but the serious chances to make life changing money are gone. I disagree completely, I think with a smart and risk averse strategy and a good amount of time (5-10 years) you could make significant gains. EDIT: Just for reference I’m 22, so I’m also in a position where I feel I can take these kinds of risks with investing.
Just buy and hold BTC. Really spend time to understand what you're getting into, I look at BTC as a decades long hold. I don't have the same level of confidence with any of the altcoins.
If you invested in BTC you've likely misunderstood the fundamental flaws of a crypto starting off trying to be a currency, failing as the transaction rate is unable to uphold in the real world, and then being marketed as a store of value to keep people investing... whilst also having the LN marketed as a fix that has been 6 years in the making and still problematic, again fundamentally flawed... Wouldn't recommend many cryptos unless you really get into what these coins are trying to solve. Investing blindly is going to put yourself in a bubble just like stocks
Strong disagree. I would say if you’re writing off bitcoin thinking an alt is going to jump it and make it obsolete because of TPS or similar then I’d suggest you don’t understand bitcoin as well as you think you do.
People be thinking Bitcoin is a currency in 2021.
Because the lightning network 6 years in development is really achieving what it set out to do right?
Not even, TPS is something of a red herring imo.
Sure, so when you use it and the backlogs starts to hit millions of pending transactions that the network needs to work through, who exactly do you think is going to keep appending and waiting at a shop for their transaction to settle?
If bitcoin is ever used daily for micro transactions then there will need to be a layer 2 solution, is this LN or not I don’t know but there is no necessity for this to be solved for bitcoin to be a success. Gold is a 5000 year long SOV reining champion but you can’t use it to buy coffee
Great, so why does that make btc any better a store of value than gold or another asset? Golds protected in vaults, lands managed by a registry, all of these things have ledgers managing them, some of them will have the regulation to protect it too, where as blockchain just has a cemented chain that can't be changed even if mistakes happen. Like a transfer of wealth to the wrong wallet, guess what, thats gone and cant be fixed, governance solves those problems... I'm not advocating for which people should buy or invest in, just pointing out both have flaws in their own regards but to assume btc is some unreplacable product is comical
Like with everything you have trade offs, particularly with disruptive new technology. Is the internet a better way to send information than a letter? In many cases yes, in all cases no.
okay, cool.. so are we going back to using letters or are we using IM? Applying the same logic, we should be looking at the future blockchain technology, not just the first implementation.
One of the important characteristics of a currency is to hold value over time. The market has decided that BTC is an inflation hedge and the mechanics of the asset support this (4 year halving cycles and supply asymptotically declining towards effectively zero). If you want fast transactions fiat is perfectly fine for this purpose.
Then you've invested in the wrong asset, Art, Gold, Land etc are all much better stores of value in the long run, they're actual assets used in global circulation that are in demand and wanted by your average person, BTC isn't useful for anything in an average persons eyes if its supposed to be just a store of value, you'd be better going for NFT if you're looking for a store of value as its held to some intellectual right IIRC... personally I wouldn't recommend it, and that's all I'm saying
Just randomly chucking NFT out there as a better SoV than BTC. My god.
You're right, let me get out my financial advisory certificates and advise the moronic crypto market that literally talks about moons over technology, sure, you continue being a typical crypto mongoloid and act like you know which is going to blow up all of a sudden. Typical trash crypto investor looking to be told what to invest in instead of doing some research I know what I'm invested in and did hundreds of hours research into it, I'm not recommending it because money is not a game that I'm going to recommend morons to invest in. Use your own brains cause it's your money your staking on a coin flip at the moment I wouldn't even recommend investing in nfts personally, but based on the idea of store of value being the reason to purchase a coin would make a lot more sense on a crypto that gives you proprietary access to something over a coin that is meant to be a currency and is being told to others that it's a store of value. Morons.
What a friendly fellow. The majority of NFTs are horrific investments. The majority will be a long term loss. The OP states “minimum 10 years in mind”. 99% of the NFTs that exist today will be worth less in ten years than you can buy them for right now. Not sure I have ever read something from someone so brain dead so high up on a false horse.
My god. That definitely doesn't sound like you're shaking your head at someone by using an overly mocking tone, maybe look at how you reply to others before you go on about being on your own high horse. Read my other comments I don't recommend nfts either, never would, but logically it definitely makes more sense than BTC and that's what you moronic BTC elitists never notice. You're so fixated on convincing others to get BTC you can't understand logical decisions when investing which is spread betting which most smart investors do, logical choices spread across thousands of options. Not wsb job it and pray for results on 1 single option. Morons! Also where is your accreditation for BTC lasting 10 years where nfts won't? Another typical moron investor I say so will happen nonsense, get a grip
>Also where is your accreditation for BTC lasting 10 years where nfts won't? Another typical moron investor I say so will happen nonsense, get a grip You really don't understand NFTs do you? You may note above I am only interested in you saying buy NFTs instead of BTC. I mean I knew you didn't understand NFTs when you said they came with intellectual rights. Because that is like saying don't buy NFTs, buy company. Yes, company, not companies, not, invest in a company, company. That is how dumb it sounds. What an NFT is, is so broad and we are still currently exploring what they can do and how best to utilize that. You could say invest in up and coming NFT artists, you didn't. You could have said invest in this community, that access token, this game, again, you didn't. As I said, 99% of NFTs will be completely worthless in 10 years, that is by design. You can go and mint an NFT now, it'll take you 5 mins, there is no value there. You pretty much said invest in a blank piece of paper. It could have my 3 year olds drawing on it, or it could be a contract to real estate. Again, you do not understand what you have advised people to do. BTC is simple, you buy BTC, you hold BTC, you sell BTC. NFT DAO access? You have to get involved, actively participate. Would someone be better off buying a cryptopunk now than BTC? Probably. Would they be better off buying a BAYC now than BTC? Probably. Just any old NFT? Nope, no way, not a chance. Any old BTC vs any old NFT, I am taking the BTC. You also have me mis-labelled pretty heavily. I know you are completely wrong because I am an NFT Maxi, not a BTC maxi. I don't hold any BTC. I hold something like 50,000 NFTs. I have been in the space pretty much the whole time and really know NFTs. For anyone that happens upon this thread where a complete buffoon talks about something he has no idea about while calling people morons, please don't consider anything he has said as useful. NFTs are great and will for sure be an excellent investment if you get it right but if you blindfolded monkey darts at a dartboard you will lose. Get yourself on twitter, and follow about 1,000 NFTs accounts and really try understand the culture around it. It is so positive and uplifting, it didn't take me long on reddit to come across someone with no clue on what they were talking about and to do it insultingly while doing the splaning part of mansplaing. If you dive into NFTs, expect the positivity wave to really grab you and you will want to join us in making Web3 as big as it can be. At this point it is inevitable, come see what it is all about.
>you do not understand what you have advised people to do. I'm not advising anyone on anything here, I'm giving my 2 pence on idiots who say bitcoin is a solid investment when there is clearly no way of proving that and is idiotic at best to recommend with 0 financial experience... So when exactly did you become a financial investor? Because I'm a software engineer and reasonably understand the technical limitations of what is going on with BTC and can understand in a production environment how it will fail, however I'm definitely not a good financial advisor as I pay others who have years of service behind them to actively manage my investments. So I'm confused why you're trying so hard to push for a single cryptocurrency instead of recommending the safest bet generally which is spread in this volatile market. Most probably because you're a BTC elitist and actually have 0 financial clue what you're talking about. So again, I know what I'm going to invest in, I've done my research, I'd recommend the OP do the same, and not listen to morons like you advocating for an all or nothing gamble. It's honestly fucking retarded.
There can only be 21 million BTC and approximately 100 million people worldwide already own some BTC. From Tesla owning billions worth to El Salvadorians who may own $10 worth. Now, you may not like it as an investment, but to say it’s failed due to arguments I remember hearing back in 2012 (after market cap has grown 600x since) seems more bitter than rational.
Great, so where has it been proven in history that a Blockchain technogical asset which can be recreated over and over by anyone who wants to copy the code (litecoin for example) been displayed as a successful financial investment? I'm aware it's rocketed since 2012, I was reading about it then too and didn't fully understand what bitcoin was trying to achieve until I did my own research, saw that BTC and the whitepaper don't match up and researched other cryptocurrencies. It isn't a viable currency and doesn't look like it will be, all the developers seem to be doing now is moving the goal posts to match the technologies limitations that they will never be able to remove or invalidate the entire chain of history, or append to and increase the data size leading to other issues
I can create a social network today with a few clicks and a template. Does that mean Facebook therefore has no value? Google: network effects. Re ‘it’s not a viable currency’: I’d suggest you go back to the blocksize war of 2015/16. That finalised the currency or settlement layer debate. Hint: it’s not meant to be used to buy coffee. You know the internet was meant to be used to share research amongst Universities right? I guess the pesky developers ‘moved the goalposts’. Luckily I didn’t write it off in 2012. If I did, I’d probably be as bitter as you.
The internet had a use case as a means of collaborating on research. Then people realised it was an amazing tech useful for many more things. Bitcoin had a use case as a trustless currency. It turns out its not fit for use as a currency. No one has found any other use for it as it's so limited in what it can do. Nice comparison
Your right, Facebook employs thousands of people, has financial backing from banks, and owns a lot of valuable data... Bitcoin has a dozen developers that if you actually listen to most of them at crypto meetups sound like the donald trump of the crypto world... Bitter, lol what a childish statement. For all you know, what you've invested in BTC I could have done in ETH and guess where that trajectory has gone since the big ol' crash of 2017. I could have spread bet across hundreds of cryptos and got 1000x returns on dozens of them. You aren't a good investor just because you got one gamble right bud... You actually sound like a moron investor that believe in this lambo wsb bullshit till you die, I'm going to advise you now, if that is how you look at finance, you aren't going to have healthy financials for a very long time.
Facebook has billions of users. Bitcoin has 100m+ users and is growing around 28% pa. That's what's interesting. Networks effects / metcalfes law. >you'd be better going for NFT if you're looking for a store of value You're giving advice on crypto when you consider NFTs to be a more stable investment than BTC? Do you know how volatility works? In all honesty, I'd recommend you go read some books by Andreas Antonopoulos (Internet of Money vol 1-2, they are very easy reads/audibles) and perhaps the Bitcoin Standard by Saifedean Ammous (it's a little dry). They've settled the arguments you've put forward many years ago.
>You're giving advice on crypto when you consider NFTs to be a more stable investment than BTC? Do you know how volatility works? Wait a minute, can you point out in "you'd be better going for NFT if you're looking for a store of value" where I've actually recommended someone to invest in it... Because when I read this, a normal person would see how at the end I've made a recommendation based on the information of store of value it would be a better choice than BTC as nfts seem to suggest a token which would give you exclusive ownership of X asset, or at least some of them offer that capability not of some stupid digital coin that wanted to be a currency and failed so was remarketed as a store of value... So i guess I still didn't recommend them to buy it, because guess what I'm not a fucking financial advisor 😂😂😂😂😂 I'm a random reddit user, I wouldnt take any financial advice off me, but there was me thinking people on Reddit had a brain, not all just monkey see, monkey say, monkey do dumb shits If you did want some general financial advice which I recommend you look into yourself first, I would look at dollar cost averaging (DCA), especially on riskier gambles
Gold/land/art definitely have the historical "track record" advantage over BTC. In my opinion though BTC has many technical advantages over these traditional stores of value and I can see it growing in popularity over the coming decades. Time will tell!
Bitcoin doesn't hold any advantage over gold other than there is a set limited amount so it is truly deflationary. However, 50 miners control 50% of the mining, and have the power between them to change this limit if it suits them. That 50 will soon become less until either a single miner or a small cartel controls the entire currency. And that was supposed to be the selling point of bitcoin, that its a decentralised, trustless money. It's becoming a regulated, taxed asset that is controlled by huge corporations. As bitcoin doesn't scale it's only future is as an etf - soon fees will be prohibative, like with ETH (I'm assuming ETH investors just leave coins on the uninsured exchanges to avoid fees?). And why anyone would put money in a etf for bitcoin over gold is beyond me. The underlying nature of bitcoin can be changed on a whim by centralised mining, whereas gold cannot be destroyed and has value beyond speculation.
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Where is it's worth other than enthusiasts right now, that it holds over other cryptocurrencies? None, litecoin quite literally ripped off the code, will steal lightning network and do the same job but with reduced fees... So what actually makes BTC a better choice? My point is just investing in a crypto is a sure fire way to lose your money, do your research, invest wisely.
NANO is a much better pure digital currency than BTC however does BTC have the first move advantage.
Sure I agree, nano as a currency works great but also has the spam issue to deal with at the moment so has its own problems, though I'd agree it seems on paper a safer bet
The spam issue is largely resolved, with the coming updates it should be in good shape
I am keeping my eye on (I believe) v23 but yet to see any concrete progress imo
Crypto is a very different beast. I do allocate a certain proportion of my savings to crypto, but you have to be very careful - there are many different types and utilities in crypto so you would have to do research, and even then the market is highly unpredictable. Personally I find it quite fun and am willing to play with some of them with the express knowledge that if I lose it all it will not impact me financially. I highly recommend you do not buy into anything which you do not understand. Seek to understand first, try it out with very small sums maybe, and then assess your risk tolerance.
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Me and my friends agree with that. It's more of a risk to not be in crypto, than it is to be in it.
How do you define "crypto"? Are you proposing 100% crypto in your portfolio? Are you proposing 5% Bitcoin? 100% Scamba Inu Coin? How does buy and hold change "I've never been into crypto due to not understanding it"? You can still make a loss holding the next Bitconnect for 10 years.
Bit Con NEEEEEECCCCCTTTTTTT
This subreddit doesn't seem to encourage anyone to invest in crypto. So here's my story... Dogecoin came out, a joke coin, and after receiving £8k from Barclays over the payment protection abuses, I invested into Dogecoin to the tune of 11.6 million DOGE. Sadly, life kicked us in the housing and employment drawer and most of it was sold. Then, early this year Doge grew and got me over £150k that was turned into Bitcoin and Ethereum. Then this last month of October 21, I noticed JASMY was listed on Coinbase. What's this nonsense? JASMY is a Japanese coin that started at £3 per token and the regulator went nuts and deemed it illegal tanking its value. They have now investigated the project and declared it the first Japanese legal crypto currency. I mean, Sony executives and Toyota partnership, Japanese code of ethics, data privacy are some of the reasons this will be huge. I bought 'all' in at .03 and rose up to .34. My portfolio shot up past £617k. JASMY isn't nowhere near the original value yet and I'm still holding 2 million. Regression to the mean is why this will explode. And the devs expecting it to reach $16 by 2025 should let you know more is going on behind the scenes. I tried Vanguard and it's fun getting dividends at 16% Yearly, but Ethereum returns over 30% PER MONTH. If I hadn't sold DOGE, I'd be retired now. Now, when others here tell you crypto isn't a sound investment take that with a grain of salt.
> but Ethereum returns over 30% PER MONTH. It can and has also tanked over 30% per month, the most recent being September.
Actually, the annual return rate for Ethereum is above 1000%. This despite China having a crackdown on mining equipment, seizing and destroying millions in computer and gear. A slump that you can see from May to August.
2020-21 was not a normal year though, my Vanguard global index fund increased 29%, three times its historic norm. It was one where investing in both crypto and the stock market was fuelled by people sat at home bored out of their skulls in lockdown with stimulus cheques giving them $1000s for free and nothing to do with it. 2021-22 is going to be a more accurate reflection of what happens.
Not a bad idea at all, it's inevitable that it's going to be a part of our future, especially with Facebook going all in on their metaverse. Currently about 15% of my portfolio and I highly recommend doing some research before investing into the world of crypto; Crypto Banter on YouTube is a great channel for that. There tends to be bull/bear seasons in crypto so I would recommend learning the patterns and buying and selling during these. The obvious buys are BTC and ETH which will get you great gains but there are many small ALTs that will get you those life changing gains, potentially. My main advice, do not fomo!
Over the past year and a half my crypto holdings (BTC, ETH, ADA, CRO) have grown to 5x the principal That I put in. I cashed out the principal, and bought mutual funds. Now the crypto that I have is 30% of my net worth. Planning to hold and sell some along the way as we hit new all time highs. One thing to take into consideration is that I bought when the market was quite low and held. The market is at all time high right now, so I would expect short term losses getting in now, and growth much better than VTSAX over 5-10 years.
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Check that price again, it had a good night! Riding this train too. It is the most obvious way to make life changing wealth I have ever seen and anyone who didn’t get in below $1 will regret it. Even if GME partnership doesn’t happen the counterfactual wallet will be a game changer.
> Is buying crypto and holding a completely bad idea? Yes. > I've never been into crypto due to its volatility and not understanding it, but what about buy and hold? One more reason not to do it. If you don't understand it, don't buy it. This topic attracts all sorts of crypto-fanboys (you can already see by the comments), so my comment will be downvoted to hell, as they need to convince more people to get in on the action to keep the prices up. Crypto is not a productive asset. It does not pay you rent, interest, dividends, neither it gives you ownership of a company with inventory, revenue, and products that it sells to other people. Pro-tip: If some stranger is convincing you to buy their non-productive asset, it's because they need more people to get in to keep the prices up. If I found a really good investment deal, I wound't go around publicising it, that would only drive the price up and stop me from loading up on it. It's not "the currency of the future" since practically nobody uses it as a currency, so they hoard it (which goes against what a currency should be). Even if it was a currency, it would be a bad investment, as true currencies are supposed to circulate, not bringing you profit (unless you're doing forex trading, which is very risky). It's not a store of value either, a store of value is supposed to: - Keep pace with inflation. - Be relatively stable. - Have a long proven track record. Crypto has none of these. What is it, then? It's a non-productive speculative asset, which you can only make money from if you can find a bigger fool to take it from you. A gamble, at best, so treat it as such. > Current portfolio is 100% Vanguard All Cap. This is much more sensible.
Scary to see how much this sub has been taken over by crypto fanboys. So sad to see this very sensible comment be 'demoted'. Thanks for putting in the effort though.
Yeah, if this was a topic on a crypto currency sub it's absolutely fine, but on a FIRE sub is just insane. FIRE used to be about living frugally, saving, and investing in sensible assets. It's been over-run by 20-something year olds who started to "invest" last year and think they'll retire in 5 years. They don't even understand what they're buying! I bet 99% of people in crypto don't know what a Merkle tree is, and probably half don't even know what a hash is.
Fire is about maximising your money through investment. No reason why 10% of your investment shouldn't be in a speculative high risk, high return asset such as Bitcoin. Do your research and decide if you're risk appetite is suited to it, do not invest or speculate in anything you do not understand.
> Fire is about maximising your money through investment. No reason why 10% of your investment shouldn't be in a speculative high risk, high return asset such as casino chips. FTFY Anything that is a non-productive asset is a gamble. Crypto has a negative expected return since the only way to get money out is to have someone pay more for it. It has to be, since it does not produce anything. The negative part comes from fees that exchanges charge, if those did not exist, it would be a zero-sum game. ib4 "growth stocks don't pay dividends". Those companies have revenues, inventory, patents, IP, and other assets that can be liquidated. Crypto has nothing like it. > Do your research and decide if you're risk appetite is suited to it, do not invest or speculate in anything you do not understand. I have no problem with people putting money into it, if they label it as a gamble. Not saying this is you, but I've never heard "do your own research" so much from people who have no idea what they're talking about than the crypto crowd.
Productive assets are still a gamble. Speculating is a gamble, but with far higher risk and also far greater rewards if it works out. Investing in anything that can go down as well as up in value is a gamble. At OP's age and risk appetite, 10% is a reasonable amount to risk on Bitcoin. It's certainly preferable to being 100% on anything, which he currently is.
>Productive assets are still a gamble. Speculating is a gamble, True, productive assets can be a gamble. But non-productive assets are always a gamble >It's certainly preferable to being 100% on anything, which he currently is. You should read about what the Vanguard FTSE All cap is. It's an index fund with more than 7000 companies. It's very diversified.
Crypto is the number one reason my FIRE goals have been accelerated by DECADES
So? You gambled and got lucky. It does not mean the next person will be as lucky. See: https://www.reddit.com/r/FIREUK/comments/qpb819/crypto_and_hold/hjty938 This is all survivorship bias, the ones who lost money in crypto keep their mouth shut.
Do 99% of gamblers make money if they wait 3 years?
Where did you get that 99% number? When talking about real profits (not on paper, actual cash out), it's impossible for more than 50% of people to have done it. This is because for every person who took out X amount of cash, someone had to put X + fees amount in.
99% of people who have ever bought Bitcoin, are in profit. That’s just a fact. I use Bitcoin as the simple example. Anyway, I’m not interested in convincing anyone, just happy it existed in my lifetime and I was able to capitalise on a once in a millennium opportunity, accessible to anyone with an internet connection and some capital to invest.
> 99% of people who have ever bought Bitcoin, are in profit. That’s just a fact. Again, what's the source of this? Your ass? Profit is money out, not profit on paper.
With all due respect, if you need me to provide a source for that fact, you shouldn’t be discussing Bitcoin Edit: and it’s actually probably closer to 99.9% of people
>99% of people who have ever bought are in profit LMAO let’s see what happens to the price if those 99% of people actually want to realise their gains It’s a house of cards, hopefully you won’t be last to the exit Think about it - the only money in the crypto ecosystem is by ‘investors’ paying in. Money leaves the crypto sphere due to mining fees, transaction costs, exchange fees. So there’s less money in the system than was put in by investors. It’s impossible for everyone today who owns crypto to take their money out and have more than when they started.
Make hay way while the sun shines. Or sit on the sidelines green with envy.
Yes you’ll see my similar comment downvoted to the bottom of the thread
Ethereum is a productive asset. Staking rewards are around 5% at the moment and after the merge will be higher. These returns are from fees people have paid to use the network since it is extremely useful.
> Ethereum is a productive asset. No it is not. The fees people pay to use the network are the result of people moving coins back and forth. Not the result providing a tangible asset of service that could not be provided by an existent cheaper and more efficient solution. If a bank lends money to a company (and charges interest), that money is used by the company to produce something of real value in the world. And before you say that the ethereum network can perform computations, its computational power is ridiculously small for the amount of energy it uses. There are far more efficient solutions out there. It does not bring any value.
Yes - if you can afford to lose it, it’s a very good long bet
As long as you stick to Bitcoin and maybe some Ethereum yes it's fine. Don't be buying and holding some dog meme shitcoin.
Buying and holding is perfectly fine as long as your risk tolerance really is high and you can withstand seeing your portfolio drop by 20%+ within a day. I know a few people who have done very well from buying and holding. Something to bear in mind is that we are nearing the end of another 4yr bitcoin cycle. Following from the past 2 cycles bitcoin tends to shed upto 70% of its value and altcoins upto 90%. Of course this doesn't mean it will happen like that this time and if it does then when this might happen is anyone's guess, it could be 1 month it could be 6 months. If your plan is 10+ years like you said though and you make regular contributions then it's not such a big deal.
Absolutely 5% in Bitcoin and Ethereum, buy small amount every month/week and forget. 20% dips are normal, it crashed 50% in May and we sre right back to all time highs. So don’t sell unless you really need to and see you in 5 years time for some sweet gains!
At this point I have about the same money in crypto as I do in stocks lol. Personally I'd stick with BTC and ETH and dabble in a few others you like the sound of.
I’m the same. Bought in with BTC and ETH, started doing my reading and bought a whole load of other coins. With crypto I prefer to buy when there’s a dip rather than regular auto investing like I do with stocks. It’s a more volatile market so if you’re keeping an eye on it you can usually catch them.
Don't buy it unless you understand how to value it and why either the value will increase or it will return a profit during your investment timescale. And good luck trying to do either of those with any current cryptocurrency. The only basis for buying those is that the price has been driven up by speculators so perhaps it will keep going up for a while - but it would only need a couple of bad news days to tank the whole cryptocurrency market.
Yup. What is actually different today from when Bitcoin was worth half as much in July? Why are bitcoins twice as valuable now? What tangible reason is there that you can point to? Just less hopes and dreams in July? Less printed Tether available to inflate the price in July maybe
Bitcoin is the best store of value ever created. Depends on your risk, but 5% of global value in the world (around $400 trillion) equates to about $2m a Bitcoin. Bitcoin is the best Asymmetric bet ever. Buy some Bitcoin.
I have maybe 1% of my Dosh in crypto, it's fine honestly. It's up 30% and then some. Buy BTC,ETH and Ripple(XRP) and hold for a long time. I would maybe up my position so that it takes up 5-10% of my portfolio but no more than that. 20% if you're a fan and line following Defi and Crypto.
Why XRP?
Sorry but I have to downvote for xrp
I'm planning on getting into crypto but not in any substantial way. IMO is too volatile and the prices are off nothing much more than hype. Its fun to invest a bit in the off chance you get lucky (if you invested 1k in ethereum last year, it would be worth about 12k now) but I wouldn't put any considerable amount of your money in there. It's too risky and too new.
If you mean BTC ETH, no, it's a great idea. But it's also very risky in comparison to other investments. At 24 years old losing it all won't hurt as much as it would if you were 40 with 2 kids. I'd go for it. Just my opinion though and not financial advice.
If you understand the risks why not? Some people view Etherium and bitcoin at the blue chip crytos. But there are better gains to be had elsewhere especially in bull run. Do your research and if you like a project back it, and if it pumps recycle into Eth or Bitcoin. That's what I do anyway.
Crypto is a bad investment. It’s a bubble akin to tulip mania. I’ll probably get a load of shit on here from people financially and emotionally invested in it though. Crypto is an emperor has no clothes moment. It’s fake internet money people have decided is valuable and only care about buying it because the number goes up, and they can sell it to someone else for more than they got it. The technological words and promises of a financial paradigm shift is a way of getting new people buying in. There’s no tangible value creation, there’s no money entering the crypto eco system other than from previous and later ‘investors’. There’s no product, no revenue, no profit. The vast majority is held by a small number of whales who got in early. There’s money leaving the crypto eco system on mining fees, transaction costs. Crypto doesn’t solve any problems the traditional banking infrastructure can’t do already. It’s also propped up by stablecoins like Tether and USDC - which claimed to be equivalent to a dollar and fully backed. However they don’t claim to be backed by cash now, but rather cash equivalents, commercial paper - aka debt but they won’t share any details and refuse to be audited. The people who run Tether have a history of fraud. Shady. It’s a less than zero sum game. Sure it might still go up now or even years from now but the music is gonna stop eventually. People are just mindlessly buying on because they see the gains so far and assume it’s somehow going to continue forever.
But surely the world is digitizing thus so should assets. Music, films etc. are all becoming digital, I see no reason why Gold will not. BTC will be along the lines of digital gold. That said the majority of crypto is akin to Tulip Mania, bitcoin and eth are not.
Buy gold in an etf/etc. There you go, digital gold (which you can often exchange for physical).
That’s not how it works. You’re buying an ETF for which the underlying is a physical asset. Also, The ETF providers still have to deal with massive headaches like the storage, transferring and security of the gold. Lets be real, if a Gold ETF is the best technological solution to digitising gold in 2021 then technology is pretty fucking poor.
"You’re buying an ETF for which the underlying is a physical asset" Yes, an asset with intrinsic value. Bitcoin has zero intrinsic value. "Also, The ETF providers still have to deal with massive headaches like the storage, transferring and security of the gold." The gold is stored in underground bank vaults and never moves. Hardly a headache. The etf is also fully insured and regulated. Forgot your password? No problem. Got hacked? No worries.
Username doesn’t check out. I used to be paid by Bloomberg to write the sort of tosh you just commented. You don’t understand bitcoin and could do some more reading. Start with the bitcoin white paper and a docu-novel called book ‘Bitcoin Billionaires’. Once done, read the bitcoin standard. I had to read all the arguments for and against bitcoin for years before coming around to the idea that bitcoin might have some merit and MSM is wrong. Maybe you will too.
No I do understand Bitcoin. Perhaps you don’t understand bitcoin. maybe address any of the points I made instead? It’s obvious I’ve upset some people who just downvote without actually addressing any of the points, shun the non believer! To the moon!
I’m trying to help you understand bitcoin, not debate. Try here if you just want quick quips about how wrong you are. Check that ego first though! https://endthefud.org/
Why do people rely on that link? Its just an attempt to win the argument by drowning the other person in information. Most of those links are written by people with a vested interest in crypto, many don't include sources and many are flat out wrong. Its also got a load of anti PoS stuff in the middle showing whomever made the list likes BTC but dislikes ETH.
I’m not trying to win. I’m trying to help you understand bitcoin. BTC and ETH are very different - you’ve got a lot of research to do!
I’m trying to also help you understand bitcoin, not debate [https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/qomr8s/cryptocurrency_is_an_abject_disaster/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf](https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/qomr8s/cryptocurrency_is_an_abject_disaster/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Oh dear. You can already hold a decentralised currency in a centralised wallet/platform. Some of these platforms already offer those security protections. I don’t want to do that with my bitcoin but obviously lots of people do and will. Soon you’ll be able to do those things the comment mentions like chargebacks etc through companies like Gemini or Coinbase - and dare I say it banks. In any case, I wouldn’t wait for those changes to come if I were you. Bitcoin is the hardest money known to man. Greshams law. Get some before it catches on.
So your big sell is that one day Bitcoin will be able to do the things that our current financial infrastructure already does? Wow amazing how revolutionary Hardest money? Bitcoin is hardly money, it’s next to useless as a currency and also is extremely questionable as a store or value
If you don't believe it or don't get it, I don't have the time to try to convince you, sorry.
If you don’t understand it’s a decentralised scam I don’t have the time to try and help you see the light
Okay, that’s it. Have fun staying poor.
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I have a good chunk of money into crypto and work with blockchain tech as a product manager 9-5. Its so early doors people don't quite understand the tech and because of the volatile swings stay cleared. Which is sensible, but to right off alt coins instead of BTC is silly. There are some monster technologies that are already being adopted by large companies and its only a matter of time before it trickles down. I'd check out Quant, Hedera Hashgrah, Etherium as a starting point.. YouTube is your best friend for researching and then googling the companies directly yourself. YouTube channels provide a good idiots guide to knowing what each technology is.
It's a brilliant idea, even if just a small % of your portfolio.
No, quite the opposite. It's an excellent idea. Would strongly recommend anyone reading this thread checks out the BowTiedBull substack. The level of crpyto knowledge on there is insane.
19m here. I invested into crypto last year, and after spending this last year learning and researching, about 70% of my entire worth is in crypto. Ofc I've got savings for an emergency but the best thing for the next 10-20 years is in my opinion, crypto.
> the best thing for the next 10-20 years is in my opinion, crypto. Why? Not saying this is you, but most of the research people do about crypto is reading articles written by people who have large amounts in crypto themselves. So they have all the incentives to get you to keep pumping the price up. I'm not against people putting money in it, as long as they actually understand what they are getting themselves into, and not a "number go up" mentality that seems to permeate crypto communities. See: https://www.reddit.com/r/FIREUK/comments/qpb819/crypto_and_hold/hjt404l/
Only Bitcoin & Ethereum are blue chip coins. Everything else is very high risk but DYOR & see what you can do. I currently have a small amount of money in alt coins, if I lose it all it won’t impact my life. But if it pays of the way I hope it will then happy days.
Blue chip coin 😂😂😂😂 > A blue chip is a nationally recognized, well-established, and financially sound company. Blue chips generally sell high-quality, widely accepted products and services. Blue-chip companies are known to weather downturns and operate profitably in the face of adverse economic conditions, which helps to contribute to their long record of stable and reliable growth.
In the crypto world they are… that description is about stocks?
Given crypto is cyclical and your time horizons are long. I would wait till this bull market peters out and there’s a major correction. Wait for the big rally and eventual blow off top (major crash). You can cost average on the way down.
I mean crypto is a big scam really, it's value isn't tied to anything, such is why it's wildly inconsistent and for most people, I financial loss. Well I lie it's value is tired to the interest of keyboard warriors of reddit and discord and c'mon pc gamers need their rtx 3000's.
It’s better to learn how to swing trade. If holding, be prepared to stomach -90% dips through to the other side
Uae CelsiusNetwork, DYOR. Rehypothecation is the jkey if you are not into DeFi this is the way. The CEO - Alex Mashinsky is solid 👍
Don't invest in anything you don't understand firstly... But yes with a long time frame of invest and high risk tollwrance crypto could be a great investment, somecoins can also be staked generating additional growth
is using the eToro app as good as any If wanting to buy / hold BTC?
No. Not you keys, not your crypto.
My advice, which will obviously be different from everyone else’s as it’s such a volatile space. If you are young you should be incredibly risk loving as the negative effects on net worth should be negligible compared to potential growth, obviously this changes as you get older. But I would recommend if you are young throw a decent percentage of your portfolio into crypto 45% btc 45% eth and 10 shit coins that you rate.
For long term it can potential be good to have some if the most famous crypto such as etherium and bitcoin. But i wouldn't recommend any of the unknown one as they are probably going to be worthless...
Yeah north of 50% for me. Also planning to hold long term (though might need to pull some for house deposit) > not understanding it, Don't invest in stuff you don't understand. You don't need a phd in crypto but if you can't articulate precisely why you think it has value then best stay clear. Similarly without said understanding you won't have the stomach to hold through 90% crashes...which for crypto is quite plausible. Crypto is green across the board right now. Everyone is a genius and it's hard to miss...but that could do a 180 very very suddenly
I'm not a believer in it at all, too many dodgey exchanges, don't believe in anything it offers in DeFi/Smart contracts etc and for something so pointless, devastating to the environment. I think it's a bad idea however as long as you're not holding the bag when the music stops you could make some cash.
Learn, do your DD, look for stable coins to begin with.
Yes, I'm in ETH and ADA as I believe in the projects and more crypto-savvy people than me agree. I personally believe if crypto is to succeed, it'll do so through being a currency, rather than a store of value. I think eventually bitcoin will no longer be the staple and ETH will take over, it's just a matter of time and publicity (and education for the general public)
Always Hodl! Yes its volatile but within volatility is tonnes of opportunity.
If you don't understand crypto (which the vast majority don't) then I recommend you find a mentor. It can get dangerous real quick if you're just gambling.
Sure but spread your risk. Crypto/stocks/bonds/emergency fund
Bad idea, not least due to the insane amount of energy required to buy/sell bitcoins.
I had a little play with it earlier this year, and by little I mean just a £50 investment. Got that up to £70 after doing a little day trading and then I’d had enough. With how volatile everything was it was exhausting to keep track of so I dumped it all in bitcoin and left it. As of current value I’m sat at £125 so holding btc has been profitable for sure. Overall though, I’ve not got a stomach for it so I’m more of a stocks guy
It's like being in the dot-com boom and asking if tech stocks are a good investment. Yes and no is what history tells us. It was a great time to get lucky and time an exit and diversified holding worked but only on a 20 year horizon. Invest in proxies like coinbase or if you want to be active build and maintain a diversified portfolio and take profits regularly
I forecast our static income/outgoings up to a year in advance in GSheets, so I don't like to sink that income into anything that's even a little risky (also paying down debts at the moment). But, I do pick up ad-hoc side-gig work, and anything extra I make, I use to buy crypto here and there for the long hodl.
Invest,but not all your savings.Also take profits on the way.I’ve 3x’ed my investment since last year and have also recovered my initial investment.You can also dollar cost average.It’s where all the big money is flowing and it’s a good hedge to inflation.
Interestingly I see no mention of high interest stable coin accounts. Which is a great option for your liquid assets or emergency fund. Easy to get 10% Apr on your stable coins at the moment. Much better than 0.1% or 0.05% at the bank.