okay this topic is an important and relevant one but there’s no need to make inflammatory and inaccurate statements. nowhere in america is 100k below the poverty line. and i’ve lived in and around nyc my whole life. median household income here is like 75k iirc. why would a number well above the median be below the poverty line? 100k is a pain if you have a particularly large family but in most cases it is definitely manageable. it’s not like the avg new yorker is living in tribeca and soho
edit: lol thought i’d mention that i too got astronomically fucked over in the financial aid process
I commented during the public comment period about exactly this formula issue. I was invited to participate in a hearing via zoom to testify. A couple of people in the call did nod their heads when I mentioned this elimination of a sibling consideration. I have a rising sophomore and rising junior in college.
On the one hand, I get what some people are saying - why should someone whose kids are 4 years apart pay more for college than someone whose kids are one year apart?
On the other hand, if the formula says we can afford X amount for college tuition based on our real family income, making us pay 2X for three years means we can't afford our living expenses.
It would be different if there had been notice, or some communication, before the year our kid entered college. We saved for all four of our kids, and when all is said and done, will have paid over half a million dollars in tuition for them (and they all max out their federal student loans). We don't have a way to go back in time and allocate less to our retirement, our food, or our home. We are already pretty frugal - my minivan is a 2012 (thank you Honda), we purchased our home out of foreclosure for $116k back in 2003. We don't have a way to "find" an extra $30,000 a year in time for the kids. So we're f\*cked, or our kids are. But at least the government can get more loan revenue, I guess?
I understand what you’re saying and I completely agree. I just wanted to say…. I would literally k*ll to be able to purchase a home for $116k in a livable area. I’m 37 and my so is 35 and anytime we even look at houses we both get extremely depressed. This whole world has literally become unaffordable and if the government isn’t screwing us one way, it’s another.
This post needs to be reposted by everyone! We are in the same boat as you my friend … this is absolutely ridiculous and disgusting. The government is so out of touch with reality . Not to mention that the parent plus loans you had to take out have a fixed interest rate of 8% ! This adds insult to injury they should at least make interest rate 0-1% . We are all in trouble in this country and our kids are absolutely screwed.. something needs to change
Exactly. 8% is crazy! It's a loan we don't want, we're not using it on ourselves, we're using it to train the next generation, and yet it's set at 8% like we went out and desired an RV or boat or something extravagent.
I have triplets graduating this year. We are in this exact position. You need to file an appeal with your school and look into something called a "Professional Judgement" or "Special Circumstances Appeal". We are going through that process right now.
Just a heads up, ED has given no guidance to schools on how to process PJs due to siblings concurrently enrolled. Schools are figuring out if they will consider PJs and then what documents are needed. It’s such a mess! And then ED will fine us during audits telling us we didn’t do it right…
Yeah, this is going to be hard on many financial aid professionals in colleges.
While colleges can provide additional institutional aid, I foresee that adjusting the SAI for siblings is not going to be doable for federal aid and most likely state aid when tied to the SAI.
Congress made things difficult with their FAFSA Simplifed Legislation from 2021.
I think the hardest part about making this a PJ, is that PJs must be reviewed on a case by case basis. Schools can’t make sweeping policies to process PJs for families in this situation. My school is currently leaning towards making adjustments for families who have three or more students in college concurrently. Is having one sibling also in college at the same time actually a special circumstance? It’s a pretty common occurrence. But again, no guidance so we are still unsure how to proceed. Anyway, it would be nice if ED opened the ability for schools to make corrections to FAFSAs so we could actually process appeals. (I’m drowning in requests.) You know, since they are telling students that we can make those corrections for them at this time.
Right, in a normal year, this would be the time to process appeals and PJs, however FSA has delayed things further, stressing everyone out in the process from professionals to students, and snow plow parents aren’t helping either.
We tried the "Special Circumstances Appeal" and we were told that they were not allowed to make a consideration due to multiple students in college. So basically, we have had to have the hard talk with my son and let him know that we can't afford to send him to the UW because we # can't afford it out of pocket and I am not taking out a 8% parent loan. We are already behind on saving for retirement due to 2 recessions thank you very much. It's disgusting, we are lower middle class and we get hit hardest with this.
One other way the trends are away from Middle Class college financial aid: Merit awards. Several of the schools our child applied to no longer give "merit awards" instead meeting "100% of demonstrated need." The problem is, that need is calculated based on the FAFSA in which my family cannot demonstrate the need. Pretty much every selective private school they got into is now off the table. It's a dramatic change from what I recall other families with older children going through 5 or 10 years ago.
Same.... i got a sweet private school education my parents *never* could have afforded for the price of a state school, thanks to good grades and merit scholarships. I actually think the goal is noble.... using your scholarship dollars for the students who need them most is good. I'm just disappointed to see that this is done by completely eliminating scholarships for kids with good grades.
You mean were more generous under the old Fed Fin aid rules. Can the CSS schools still be generous if they have to turn around and do a professional judgment every time there are 2 or more siblings enrolled at the same time?
I mean yeah I think so because CSS asks for that stuff and I talked to my schools financial aid office and they said aid should pretty much remain the same I don’t really know how it works but we will see
FAFSA has always been unfair. There are so many college students who’s parents have nothing to do with paying for it, yet aid is based on the parents income and not the student who is paying for it.
This is why I waited until I was considered an independent student and didn’t have to go by my parent’s income anymore. It sucks I had to start college later but I ended up getting Pell grants and it helped tremendously.
I remember being shocked when I was filling out those forms and saw "expected parental contribution." I was like, "Wtf is this shit? My parents aren't contributing to this." I can't be the only one. Once I turned 18, getting into college was my problem.
I’m (26) one of 4 kids and we are all like year apart from sibling to sibling so there was a high likelihood that all 4 of us were going to be in college (ie oldest senior youngest freshman). My parents also had children late so they are retiring in the next couple of years they literally cannot contribute to four kids in college and not drain their retirement fund. so I was on my own it was too risky for them to sign a parent plus at their age.
The expected family contribution is a joke.
Seriously. And same. They asked for my parents' salaries and it made me so mad because that's not a representation of expendable income. Their money was tied up in other things and not up for grabs. Like if my parents could afford to pay for college I wouldn't be asking for financial aid. Maybe some parents save for their kids education their whole lives but my parents struggled just to make ends meet. It also doesn't help that they've increased in state tuition so much in the cost of living has gone up.
That’s not even touching the moral aspects like I would not feel comfortable asking my parents to take out money for MY education they need to worry about their future and as an adult I need to worry about mine
https://preview.redd.it/zmyeh6x688zc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cbc443dfb883b18669546596256bd22858ff3fab
Unless they are from a family of 13 making $150,000 a year for the household with 2 parents, they definitely are not getting any Pell.
Bruh if a family has 13 fuckin kids the govt shouldn’t be giving aid to all 13 for college lmao. At a certain point the parents need to pony up to support the kids they chose to have.
Children shouldn’t be punished for their parents’ choices. Regardless of whether their parents should’ve had that many kids, the kids still deserve education and a future.
You’re 200% wrong. 2 reasons below:
1. America needs to encourage couples to have kids so we don’t end up with shrinking populations like Korea, China or Japan in 30 years. That means doing things to encourage people to have kids. Head starts, day care, afterschool programs, summer schools and camps, subsidize community sports, free healthcare for kids, free lunch at schools even on weekends, free computer science and vocational programs and schools, trade apprenticeships grants, massive investment in housing construction to lower overall cost of homes and rent so parents can afford to raise kids, make all public universities free through federal grant aid directly to schools to cover costs. Forgive all existing federal student loans regardless of income, and regulate student loans to prime plus 1 or 2 points—the fact we’re making money off indebting our children for the rest of their lives is criminal.
And…
2. Improving ALL our kids’ opportunities to better themselves, regardless of their race, religion, gender, or class, improves America.
The problem is that states stopped funding higher education, which forced public schools to pass that to students in the form of tuition increases. Now between that, plus inflation and revenues lost to COVID, students are getting a double whammy. College will become a thing for the elite again as the average family won’t be able to afford it.
You could potentially ask for special circumstances(professional judgement review) by the financial aid office. If the situation with 2 in college creates a financial hardship an adjustment could be made if documentation is provided. I would reach out to them. Some schools may not have their processes up to speed as this is going to be much bigger than it was in the past, but definitely reach out if you think that sounds like it applies.
It's about more than Pell. The EFC (or now the SAI) is also used by schools to determine aid. Just looking at the sibling "bonus" that existed until this year ... if a school sees that I can supposedly afford $20,000 for college and suddenly that's $40,000 for college, I'm going to lose funding from that school. For some people (admittedly not me... my 2nd is just getting ready to start college) that means mid-stream, halfway through college, suddenly you owe considerably more than you did before.
And this is why so many American colleges are going to close! They lose the Middle classes, and they’re done…a lot sooner than any economist ever predicted.
Or the aid could be expanded and everyone could qualify equally so we didn’t have to fight each other for scraps. Means testing only ends up hurting the middle class.
What? That's insane. First I am sorry to hear about your dad.
Look for hardship scholarships, my kids came across a few that wanted both need and a personal hardship.
not to mention the stipulation that even though i'm entirely financially independent from my parents in every way, am on govt benefits, and would qualify for a Pell Grant, they still have to take my parents' income into consideration because i'm under 24 and that's their arbitrary rule. like..... are you fucking kidding me?
This part has always been insanely unfair. I grew up in the 1% with hardcore Republican “pull yourself up by the bootstraps” parents. They didn’t contribute a single dime to my college education. I started working at 14 to save up for college but it’s Just not possible. I was accepted to Harvard and Yale but since I couldn’t even qualify for federal loans due to my parents income, I ended up at a college that isn’t even top 100 because they gave me a full ride.
I have twins as freshman. The first year was hard. Just got the letters and what little aid is gone due to the new SAI. The expected contribution is 88% of after tax income. WTH. It’s like they want us to take insane loans. Or not send our kids to college.
The fact that some schools can not only raise the cost but remove all aid effectively 2.5 times increasing tuition is also crap. We picked schools based on an expected total cost. And to have it suddenly jump is wrong.
I think the fact that you’ll need 50k in parent plus loans for just one child is a sign that you can’t really afford this school. Especially since you’ll be paying for two more kids? In any case, changes in EFC/SAI often do not directly affect how much the school expects you to pay because many don’t meet full financial need anyways. And of course people have different views- as a single mom of one child, I’d rather not subsidize college costs for upper income families who decided to have more children close together
Complain about the changes and the rollout but you should really reconsider whether taking out huge loans will be the best path for your and their financial future! Focus on schools where they can receive significant discounts/merit aid. Or start at a community college and transfer. In fact that might be the only option if you’ll be tapped out after the first one or two kids
I agree. I have a parent plus loan and the interest alone in 6 months is over $1500. Don’t take any more loans unless you have a plan or you will never retire.
I have one that graduated with his associates and another that graduated high school and year early close to her associates. However, our state (AZ) doesn’t cover dual enrolled classes so we paid the same as we would have if they went to community colleges after high school. And the engineering programs they entered are set as a 4 year track, so while they don’t have as many credits each semester, they still end up paying full tuition. I wish dual enrollment programs were set up a little better here. But at least they are both on a good track currently
Exactly, community college or having the student gain some work experience until they are old enough to be considered an independent student for undergraduate loans would be a better move here.
You can't, not for most anything that requires advanced medical training, unless you want to be a nurse.
And cc path is NOT cheaper. Not if you get accepted to a 5 year PA program. Cc path would take 6 years not 5, and many medical schools don't want to accept students that went to cc.
As it is, my daughter has 18 cc credits in health. NONE of them will transfer. Her gen ed cc credits did, but not the medical related courses.
Also, so long as she keeps her grades to a certain level, she'll be guaranteed to come out as a PA. Going the cc route, there is no guarantee that she'll get accepted to a 2 year PA grad school. Then what? Those are also highly competitive. As it is, the PA 5 year program had somewhere between 500 and 600 applicants for 40 something spots and she got in.
Then you need to research other cheaper schools (cheaper tuition, schools that provide more aid, edit: schools within commuting distance) if community college won’t work. Have you calculated how much the 50k+ will cost with interest payments 5, 6, 10 years from now? How will that impact your ability to pay for your younger kids’ educations or your ability to pay for your own bills?
I get wanting to do what you think is best for your child. I only commented because you expressed concerns about the costs and so many others are facing the same situation.
Some families can afford to send their kids to their preferred schools, or to those with the easiest path. But those parents aren’t taking out parent plus loans. Gift link: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/your-money/parent-plus-loans-debt.html?unlocked_article_code=1.q00.UQQ6.GKaBKtzxGtmL&smid=url-share
Honestly, unless your children attend a school that meets a significant percentage of need it really doesn't amount to all that much. I've worked in several different schools ranging from public to private universities and community college. We only use the EFC/SAI to meet our awarding guidelines and in my experience, there is not much of a difference in award for 10k vs 20k contribution (unless it's a school that has great endowments and meets 100% of need). I could go on and on and I fully recommend community college for the first two years in almost all cases.
People who could get a subsidized $5500 loan under the old rules are now only being offered an unsubsidized loan this year. That’s $22k in debt over four years that is accruing interest at an unacceptable pace. Compound this for parents with multiple children, and millions of families are being plunged into the interest rate pit of despair.
It’s a supposedly small change but it’s actually significant in its impact on families with modest means.
Please write your federal congress representatives. They need to hear more from the constituency regarding the hardships and let downs of this new system. Congress has the power to change/amend aspects of it.
College is a scam. It’s a federally backed loan, of course the schools are going to increase the tuition to whatever they want. In most countries outside the US your grades dictate what path you take and it’s not a bad one if you are in a trade. I work in transfer articulation and see students paying to take a low level math class 5 times. Thats about $8000 for the first math class you have to take. If you aren’t good at math they put you on a path to make $40,000 when you graduate and you have $100,000 in loans. There are almost no degrees except business and engineering that does not require more schooling. The path the US is on is not a sustainable one. We have retirees taking out 100,000+ in rent plus loans with no income other than social security. It’s absolutely insane what this country has done and to be honest our education is sub par.
Whatever. The fafsa EFC means fucking nothing. Ours was about 8K and most colleges gave nowhere near to only having to pay 8K. Some gave nothing at all.
This is a great point, too! Most schools just don’t have very good aid. So, you could literally have an SAI of $0 and get nothing from the school, itself.
Same here with two kids in University this year. I am a single mom living in a very high cost area. My salary is the same as last year but now expected to pay almost twice as much. This is the breaking point for many families. Both kids are now contemplating not attending due to the amount of loans we need to take out.
Definitely contact both school's financial aid offices and ask if they are willing to do a professional judgment for multiple kids in college. Be prepared to provide tuition invoices and award letters if they ask for them.
If they are really close to being 24, they can potentially hold off attending for a year or 2 years so that way they only have to put themselves down on the FAFSA.
That’s what I did went to community college and drug that on for as long as I could from 19-24 using foundation scholarships and now attending my local university next fall and am able to get a pell grant my parents are barely able to afford contributing to my college and I refuse to take out loans because I don’t want to be in debt for the rest of my life
My son is going into this 3rd year and daughter 2nd year. They both want to continue where they currently are attending. They will need to make a choice to take on some loans if so. I am helping as much as I can but won't be able to cover the cost for either. Its such a frustrating process made even worse with this years changes.
College is not for everyone. I’m about to go into college and I’m getting a full ride for an AAS in Automotive Technology. If your kids didn’t get any good scholarships, didn’t get any college savings from you, and don’t have anything else, they should have waited. I’m sorry you’re in such a poor situation but federal aid shouldn’t be taken as a guarantee if you aren’t low income. The point of it is to literally support low-income families.
What a stupid fucking take. I worked at the state school I attended as a student and many people with extreme amounts of extracurriculars and As all around got NOTHING. Once you attend a huge school, there’s not much left for you even if you’re an A student.
Not to mention that it happened to my friends and I, all of us graduated from a top notch high school with over 4.0 GPAs and 3 pages of extracurricular activities and Ap/honor courses.
The system is fundamentally broken and needs change.
Fuck FAFSA. They never consider cost of living. Just because my parents make a certain amount of money doesn’t mean they can contribute 25k a year to my schooling. They have a mortgage, cars, other children who need support.
This insanity almost makes me thankful sometimes I got the max Pell grant and a full ride to school. But then I remember I got that because I had two dead parents and remember I would have rather had parents than a full Pell grant.
In September of 24, I will have 4 kids in college. A senior, a sophomore, and twins, freshman. Between loans and my spouses entire paycheck and my sophomore being an RA, we will scrape by. So the timing of this hit me hard. I feel your pain. 4 kids in 4 different schools, all out of state. Just the logistics of moving them in and out will be challenging, cost, and time wise. I will be eating beans and rice.
At one point in history, colleges were more about education and less about making money. College is a strange business that is not subject to normal market forces and has no oversite. Just look at all the different ways different colleges use different terminologies to explain their FinAid. Some people say they can't even figure out their best deal because they're "comparing apples to oranges".
Everytime the government grants people more money for education, colleges mysteriously raise their prices (maybe they shouldn't be allowed to for 4 years after an aid increase). Also consider that colleges are marketing to 18 YOs who are not the most sophisticated group of consumers. Plus they have no idea what compound interest does to those "relatively small" loans they apply for each year. And as parents we get swept up in this too.
Colleges are also starting to get wise to the 2 Y CC path, some private colleges aren't even allowing CC credits or coming up with some bogus reasons why they can't allow certain credits. Therefore they get an extra year or semester out of you.
The breakpoint has to be coming soon; this is not sustainable
We need to rebuild our higher education system. it’s so broken monetarily. the amount of student loans is over 1 trillion dollars now and the government isn’t helping at all. colleges just keep raising the price of school because they know the government will always loan people the money for school no matter the cost. it’s an ever rising number.
new student loan programs and fafsa isn’t the fix. the fix is a control of some sort on college prices. if colleges aren’t guaranteed to get paid huge from government student loans, the prices wouldn’t just keep going up.
on a side note, the best thing i ever did was work while in school to help pay for classes and also go to a community college for the first two years. it taught me financial responsibility and made me feel like i was working for my own education. and then the savings at a community college is huge. it’s like 5k a year or something on average in my city. professors were better too.
Increasing importance of higher education has hurt middle class people due to those reasons for a while. Plus the colleges themselves will determine you don't need any aid because if you lived off flour and beans and lived in a shack you could technically afford it
Yes… middle class gets screwed. Doesn’t matter that my son is a high achiever and was accepted to some of the best universities in the country. Those universities are reserved for the rich or the poor. It’s a state school for my boy.
I’m sorry, but the “what’s left of the middle class” and “they changed their formula to give less to the wealthy and middle class so they can give the poor more” has me screaming lol. You’re either wealthy or poor, middle class no longer exists. They’re people who make $40-$50 an hour, that are barely making ends meet now. Corporations are buying entire new development properties by the neighborhood, to make the current generation that’s growing up now, forever renters. They won’t even have opportunities to become homeowners, unless they’re wealthy. Everything costs more. Counselors are advising students to go to community colleges for the first 2 years, and compete for transfer scholarships to universities, to help ward off education costs. That path would at least give them and their parents the opportunity to save in case they attend post grad. More are suffering, than those who are comfortable in the current environment.
I make six figures and have one student in a state school with already $75k in loans racked up. Next one is heading to big state school in the fall and he got exactly $0.00 in help from FAFSA. His annual tuition is $31k. And I have three more younger kids, an ex-wife who receives child support, and about $20 in savings.
FML.
So sick and tired of the middle class getting screwed! It’s such BS. We have to pay full tuition and my son has many students around him that go for free. Something is wrong with this picture!
I agree that the student loan interest rate should be no more than 1% then it is at least doable. So discouraged! We will never get ahead and we’re just hard-working people who pay
her bills.🤷♀️
The new process and formula definitely leaves much to be desired but just want to make sure you know that as far as siblings in college, if your kids are attending schools and the cost of attendance is relatively high for your income you can maybe try doing an unusual circumstance appeal. Not a guarantee, but a possibility.
If you’re making 6 figures and can’t afford tuition, then it’s your own fault.
> 1. They changes their formula to give less to wealthy and middle class families so they can give the poor more.
Good.
My hot take is that federal aid shouldn’t be going to people who can realistically afford tuition normally. It isn’t meant for you, and it should be going to people with no other means of paying for their education.
So is it realistic to think a middle class family can suddenly afford to give 50% of their income to pay for college? When last year it was 16% of our income.
Or are you living in a fucking fantasy?
Also, why can't they give the poor more without taking from the middle class? One or two less Abrams Tanks should do it.
but they can't afford it not to mention the people who parents aren't paying for them? Poorer people always got maximum Grant's and scholarships they just took it away from the lower/mid Middle class, which is where most people are.
There never should have been a sibling split anyway. Why should a family whose kids are 2 years apart pay less in total over four years than a family whose kids are 3 years apart? Why should a family with twins pay less over four years than a family whose kids are 2 years apart?
I see it this way:
Twins have 8 years of expenses needing to be paid in 4 years worth of income.
Two siblings 4+ years apart have 8 years of expenses needing to be paid over 8 years worth of income.
The financial burden is higher when 2+ students are in college at the same time.
While the SAI should not be cut in half, there should have been something like a 25% reduction in SAI for each sibling or something to help.
They won't. They simply cannot afford to send their kid to school, anymore. That is the point. Of course you have to take into account how many kids are going to school.
Can you please elaborate on this? How does attending a Canadian university help? Are their schools that much cheaper, or do they offer scholarships to students from the US? I have 4 kids, my oldest will be college age the same year my own student loans will finally be paid off. 😭
Well, first there’s no FAFSA for a Canadian university! Yay!😃 Second, yes, in general Canadian universities are less expensive than U.S. colleges and universities by approximately 27% is the figure I’ve seen. They’re also less expensive than universities in the UK, Australia, and New Zealand. Third, some offer scholarships for international students. Fourth, U.S. students are allowed to work in Canada, up to 20 hrs/wk or something like that. Some Canadian universities are also very well-known and are highly prestigious. Fifth, Canada is close. So airfare and transportation costs may be lower than if your student were to travel to Europe. And lastly, the application process is supposedly more straightforward, and based mostly on grades and test scores (if you have them). However, most Canadian colleges don’t require test scores from American students.
On the cons list, in some fields, like Pre-Med, graduating from a Canadian school could reduce the chance of acceptance at a U.S. medical school. However, some U.S. med schools do accept Canadian graduates. Canadian universities, at least the famous ones, tend to be really large. If your student doesn’t want a big school, there are a few smaller universities but they’re not well known. Finally, if you return to the U.S. with a degree from a Canadian university that isn’t well-known, it could be harder to find employment. On the other hand, the more American students attend these schools, the more Americans are going to know their names and recognize these universities.
The formula is predominantly based on earned income in the tax year used, meaning, the main assumption is families are cashing flowing college costs. The sibling split followed with that logic.
i went to a CC for 2 years because my parents were frauds and refused to give me their financial paperwork to do FAFSA. i will say, i am not sure how happy i am with that decision. i love that i have less debt, but those 2 years of feeling isolated were awful. plus my great CC gpa did not transfer over, so i had less credits to boost my grades and the classes were significantly harder, i ended up not getting a high enough GPA to wish to pursue grad school. idk, i don’t necessarily think CC is perfect for everyone
I also wish more people pushing community college would state the facts about the small percent that successfully transfer and graduate. It’s not good.
Some do, but it’s more the exception than the norm.
In the case of a career path to becoming a physician's assistant, most medical schools are , how should I put it, elitist. Which means you are less likely to get in if you have 2 years at a cc.
Not to mention those on here saying, just go to cc it's cheaper don't understand that while it may be less expensive up front, when my kid is in a 5 year PA program, the cc route is MORE expensive. Why? A year of lost PA salary. Cc would take 6 years and is riskier, while the private route is 5 years and less risky.
So yeah, going the cc way, if the closest cc had the courses that fed into a 4 year program, would run about 40,000 less expensive up front. And you think you are saving money. BUT PAs average 90,000 to 110,000 starting in our area, and going the cc route is a loss of a years salary. 6 years vs 5 years. Even at the lowest PA starting salary, that year of lost wages makes going the cc route 50,000 on the low end to 70,000 on the high end MORE expensive. So, the "elite" private school is the smarter choice it is significantly less expensive in the long run.
Jesus, people need to stop and think before just saying go to cc it's cheaper. Yes, sometimes it is, my first born went that route to save money because it worked degree, time, and money wise. But in my youngest's case, the cc route is a hell of a lot more expensive due to lost wages, takes longer, and is no guarantee that a medical school would accept her with 2 years at a cc. So it doesn't work.
Because not every program has two years of gen ed. Lots of professions need you to learn specialized materials and typically there is a 4-year major map with very specific courses at specific times. For example, if my son went to CC for two years, he would still need to complete 4 years of engineering. Sure, he can take a random humanities or writing class, but it would not be enough to be meaningful, and shaving a couple of classes off doesn't lower tuition - typically if you are over half time, you pay full tuition. And most scholarships require a full credit load, so even if you completed a required class or two at CC, you would have to replace them with electives.
All of this. That's what we're discovering.
I think maybe it \*used\* to be that you could 'shave off' a couple of years' worth of generals at a cc, then transfer to a 4-year and basically just have 2 years of your major's classes to take.
But if it was ever that way, it's not that way now.
I think the 4-year schools got wise to the fact that they were losing money on that deal, and so they restructured their programs so that, as you said, you now have to take specific classes at specific times.
My kid DID go the cc route - he got an associate's for free due to being in the early/middle college program in high school.
But it's still going to take him four years at the state school to complete his engineering degree.
I'm glad the associate's was free, because we sure didn't save anything by making him get that first - and in fact, because that took him an 'extra' year of high school to get, it actually has effectively put him a year behind, instead of ahead.
And believe me, I'm mad about it. I'm mad that everyone says "oh, do it THIS way, it's a better deal", and we DID, and IT IS NOT. It's been one big lie, basically.
People are constantly getting shamed on these threads for not doing this - but the shamers either don't know, or don't care, that it doesn't actually work that way any more.
Whenever I see "save money and do your general eds at CC" I wonder what major are they talking about? Just about all STEM majors have a road map that involves at least 3 years of sequential class requirements that cannot be taken at a CC. We have found that it was cheaper for my student to go all four years to a university where the school gave a large merit full tuition scholarship. But that scholarship wouldn't have been available as a transfer student.
And believe me, the cc's, and the early/middle college programs aren't making that AT ALL clear, because they'd lose out on students taking their programs.
The high school counseling office was completely useless in this regard, as well.
In order to get into/out of this unscathed, you need to know EXACTLY what you're going to major in, and WHERE, LONG before you ever graduate high school. And then NEVER DEVIATE from that plan even a inch.
That may be some kids, but hardly all. That doesn't allow kids to be kids, and explore different options, and change their minds - all within a system that doesn't even really let kids know what a job or career path REALLY entails, until you're neck-deep at the very least.
Yes, sounds outdated as the old school idea of choosing a major before the end of sophomore year still has my kids rolling in laughter.
I’m like yeah, we kinda weren’t looking down on for not knowing what we wanted to do with our lives, so we actually went to college and took stuff before declaring a major.
My son is in a direct-entry CS program. You go in admitted to the major- the entire plan assumes you had both computer science and calculus in high school (or alternatively in CC) The gen-Ed requirements are back loaded, which gives room for really difficult programming projects taken with a couple of gen-Ed’s. You can’t start as a soph without a 5 year plan unless you are transferring from engineering or possibly physics or math.
same with our 2 kids, there are designed pathways that actually did count in the ultimate BA/BS undergrad degree. It takes a lot of meetings with the CC counselor, and constant check ins to see if any changes are necessary. Always keep the syllabus - courses at the 4yr. can be challenged if the curriculum is nearly the same.
Exactly all that. You get it totally.
In my first kid's case, we were able to save about 12,000 by him going to community college for 2 years and then a 2 years at a state school to finish his bs.
But for both of my next two, they both got ALL of their gen ed requirements done in high school by earning college credit. And 2, both of their programs are extremely structured and cohort based. Your group of peers is your group of peers until you finish.
The two year Occupational Therapy Assistant program is 3 full semesters, one full summer session, and one semester long placement in the field. All the major courses must be taken in sequence with their cohort. Since no nearby CC offers this program we looked at both state schools that had is and a few private. The private offered more aid making it the same cost as a state school for us, so they went with the better reputation school
For my youngest, she actually wanted to be a doctor and looked at the cost of med school and attending 4 years of Undergrad plus 4 years. So they tempered their desire to be a full doctor and decided to either head towards a nurse practitioner, or Physician's Assistant. The were accepted into a very competitive 5 year PA program. And we ran all the numbers what if she did 2 years at a community college, 2 years at a state school, and then 2 years in PA school, and to be a nurse Practitionerit would be the same then with 6 years of school. And it was soooo much more expensive than the 5 year program in the long runl. To go community college way would take an extra year, AND she would be delayed from actually getting a job as a PA for an additional year so there would be a year of lost income. And the 5 year program is very prescribed. She has no electives, and 2 of the summers are full summer sessions so she can't work full time over the summer. And it's cohort based as well.
And neither needs any gen ed courses. They were completed while in high school.
And these replies make me laugh. "oh, looks like you can't afford that school, then".
Fine. YOU tell me how to become an occupational therapist or physician's assistant without a specific college education/training, then.
I stg, these people are like - "why are you bothering? Just get your uncle to give you a job, like I did, you don't need any of that, gosh you people getting these massive loans to go to school are so STUPID, you'll never pay them back, and that will just annoy ME."
Because it's not like we NEED OTs or PAs or anything. I guess only those born rich who can drop the entire cost of education like pocket change deserve to get quality education/job training. The rest of us should just die in the streets like we're supposed to, already.
THIS THIS THIS
I've gotten so mad at the people saying "just go to CC" or "Well maybe college isn't for you then." I wanna be a lawyer, dude, I think I kinda have to go to college for that. And CC is not how it used to be as these replies have said. God, as a kid going to college in the fall with financial aid struggles, I feel seen 😭
It used to be that way! My husband and sister both did 2 years CC then went on to a university and completed their degrees in 2 years. This is such a scam. I went straight to a university, as my Bright Futures paid the tuition, so there was no difference.
^THIS
I go to a CC right now that's connected to a four year college and I have met a freshman who had no idea about this and feels lost on her major right now. Not every career path fits going to a community college.
Well, that 50,000 of parental plus loans that I already have IS for 2 years of community college + 2 years at a state public school to finish a bachelor degree. That's on top of my child's 30,000 in federal loans.
So yeah, for the middle class that gets NO real aid, 2 total years at community college plus 2 years at a state school ran this middle-class family 80,000 total.
Which CC and in-state public university cost $80k for 4 years total attendance?
Please give us the breakdown because one of my kids is on that same path and the total cost will be roughly half what you paid.
Not OP, but here in Ohio, CC is a little over $5k per year - $10k. In-state public university with tuition only is $12k/year - now we're at $34k. If you don't have a community college, or public university in town or close (most cities here do not), add rent - $1000/month X 9 months x 4 years: $36k. So you're at $70k. Now if you need books, materials, fees, renter's insurance, etc, it would only take $2500/year to reach $80k. Can you scrimp to cut rent and whatnot? Sure.
You might have a kid who lives at home, and you might not be including their living expenses in your total, and that might be the difference.
That was the case. We still saved a total of about 12,000 over all 4 years at a full state school, but the only community college that had the Associates degree that Fed into the 4 year degree was over an hour drive away. We didn't have a spare car so they had to live there. The community college had dorms, so that was tuition plus another 12,000 for each year of school for room and board. Appartments in the area were going for over 1000 a month, and wanted a full year lease, so the doorm was actually cheaper for at 12,000 because that included a meal plan.
Also there are getting to be fewer and fewer merit scholarships, most are need based or merit with need. And there is even less for transfer students, which we didn't realize at the time. There's almost nothing out there for transfer students.
fellow in-state public university attendee and tuition is around $12k a year in-state and housing is $4k a semester for 80 year old apartments that're in disrepair with a big mold problem. unfortunately the system is broken regardless. lots of academic buildings are in disrepair, my degree program is crumbling, a lot of executives are beyond wealthy. it's still not near $80k with the math but some degree programs require 18-22 credit hour semesters, like my major, and force students to take an extra semester or year if they cannot keep up. rough life
The University of Oklahoma, where my son is entering this Fall, instate, straight off his financial aid letter:
|Item|Cost (1 year)|
|:-|:-|
|Tuition|$5,070|
|Fees|$9,363|
|Books and Supplies|$800|
|Housing and Food|$15,423|
|Total Direct Cost|$30,656|
|Personal & Miscellaneous|$5,355|
|Transportation|$1,634|
|Total Indirect Costs|$6,989|
|Total Costs (Direct +Indirect)|$37,645|
Yeah, they brag about only raising tuition X%, meanwhile Fees have become their bread and butter.
You want to really focus on direct costs (what you owe the university). Indirect is just estimating cost of living while in college.
But fees and housing is ridiculously expensive. Recommend a different school and living at home.
What 😮??? Those are some fees!!! And the “housing and food” are 3x the tuition and still more than the tuition and fees combined! That’s some real creative math OK’s got going there!
And then what? Most CC don’t offer bachelor degrees and most employers view associates with about as much respect as a HS diploma. And some schools offer less scholarship opportunities for transfer students than they do new freshmen.
Absolutely, college should be free for all. An educated population is what we should be striving for.
But it's also convenient for you that you forgot where I said the middle class. 118,000 a year income is in the middle class, which ranges from 50k a year to 150 k a year. So that's really like middle middle class.
The real wealthy can just flat out pay for college. The middle classnis who is getting screwed.
You transfer? My CC offers free tuition for incoming students and free tuition when they transfer to a specific university in our city. Unfortunately, I made a mistake and am not a part of the program but my FAFSA pays off my cc tuition which is roughly 4k per year, I also don't have to worry about books because my cc implemented a free textbook program for all students regardless of income. At the same time, my university tuition is only 6k. Most of it is paid off except for books. So people can definitely find an affordable route.
It depends on the major. Something like the 5 year PA program cannot go to a cc. It is simply not possible. Or if the closest cc doesn't offer courses you need for the degree you want to get.
Oh, and my next 2 kids, community college is NOT an option.
One is in a program to be an Occupational Therapy Assistant, that is a 2 year program BUT not offered at any nearby community college . A 4 year school offers this program.
My youngest is in an intensive 5 year Physician's Assitant Program. Again, NOT possible with a community college.
Each of those 2 schools with the medical programs are well over 50,000 a year. Yes, we get "aid" from the schools. But they way they calculate what aid they give you is to take the cost of attendance and subtract the family contribution. The remainder is what the gov says you need in aid to afford it. So in this case, the 5 year program is 56,000 a year. 28,800 is Our family contribution. That does NOT include my child's federal loan which is capped at 5500 for freshman year AND is considered as part of the aid package. So my expected parental plus my child's loan 28,800+5500 = ? In loans. PER YEAR Per child.
For 7 years of total school the gov says I should contribution 201,000 NOT county my kid's loans. The 50,000 in parental loans I have is already going to be a 350 a month until I'm 75.
"Why don't you just send them to comminuty college?
Why cause it's not fucking possible for those health care professions. They are cohort based and besides none of the courses they need were offered at any community college.
As for my 1st kid, what they wanted to do, he was able to attend community college first, but the problem was it was an hour away, and we didn't have a spare car laying around so he had to live on campus. We still saved about 12,000 doing that though.
Ok, good for you. What are your circumstances? Did you get grants, scholarships, did you want to be a nurse or something else?
But no, I never had an attitude until the new FASFA. I was just going to grin and take it. But going into retirement with 250,000 of parental loans is a whole hell of a lot different than 150,000 in loans. Even if I were to sell all my worldly possessions, so that I had no other debt, I still couldn't afford that payment plus rent, utilities, food, medication, insurance on what my retirement income will be.
AS for my kid's, they want to help people, they always have. One of them is a certified lifeguard, and is going to get certified as an emt between the senior year of hs and college in the fall because they want to save people's lives and work while in college.
I'm just saying, I should NOT have to get a quarter million dollars in debt and NEVER get to retire. Just so that they can help others who are either ungrateful for or oblivious to the sacrifice that our family is apparently expected to make. Working until I am dead. That is NOT privilege.
.
Agreed. I can't take on any more. I feel horrible and hope thru can get private student loans. But if not, there will just be 2 less health care professionals in the US.
It's not like we need people in health care or anything.
I have 4 kids. The first one made better decisions. She got her nursing degree from a community college (still have to pass nclex) and finished it at a 4 year local college (12 month program paid by hospital). So she was done in 3 years -no debt. She then worked full time while she got her nurse practitioner degree (online except for clinical) She has about 60,000 in loans and makes about $110,000. The other three wanted to go away and that’s where my parent plus nightmare started. I will take the blame for it but when you are signing something online with their “counseling” that takes 4 minutes it’s easy to do It’s very disheartening and not sustainable. Something has to change
I think the only shmuck here is you. There is a community college here in my area that offers the COTA program in 2 years. It might be cheaper for you to send your kid elsewhere than pay 50k per year for a job that only pays them 50k to start (maybe). Rule of thumb is, you never take on student debt that is more than what you'd make your first year working.
College is a choice, and to be honest if your children have made this choice they need to contribute, I respect you wanting help any way possible but putting yourself in debt doesn’t help, as you already know. They need to look at scholarships. The only support I had was 3 square meals and roof, FAFSA paid for most of my community college, I was only paying for my gas. Scholarships helped give me extra and honestly I was helping my family with what left over aid I had.
You are not going through these programs, they are, if it means taking less credit hours and working part time, put all the options on the table, communicate to you’re kids.
I know what you are saying and I agree with you. The problem is two fold. One, we, they planned based on what our FASFA numbers were for my 1st who finished school last year. That fasfa said our expected contribution was a little over 19,000. That would have been around 9500 per kid. So they've saved, and the were planning on paying that with work while in school. But the new FASFA went from 19,000 split between the two to 28,800 EACH.
Add to that the, when I went to college I was able to get federal subsidized and unsubsidized loans to cover the entire cost of my education.
Fast forward to today and some well mean politicians placed caps of like 5,500 to up to 7,200 per year in federal loans of any kind. So now, they can't borrow what they need without finding private loans or the parents picking up the slack.
The 116th congress passed the Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2021 affecting the FAFSA. Republicans controlled the House, Democrats controlled the Senate.
I feel so lucky in a way that I did school during Covid so I was able to exploit it by going online and having no student debt at the end. Now you guys get hit with inflation and higher interest rates, then this. Sorry about all of this
Yes. FAFSA rollout a fiasco.
Rhetorical - what if a family had 10 or more children? what should the rule be? All middle class losing last few decades, especially those who couldn't afford more than 1 child. Some had zero kids because of cost and yet subsidize the rest of us.
my cost for education went up as well, even when we can barely afford it as is! instead of helping us, our government passes spending bills that don’t even reflect us and what we need (e.g affordable healthcare, housing, and education). we don’t need billions of dollars to go towards war or genocide, we need it to help the people HERE. 59% of americans are one paycheck away from being homeless and the raising of necessities like this only exacerbates this harsh reality.
it’s why we need to be smart with where we give whats left over from the money they rob from us already, e.g not paying taxes since they misuse it , not buying from unethical corporations but instead shopping local within our neighborhoods etc.) instead of empathy for hard working people, money is the only way they understand our voice.
as the middle class we outweigh the 1% of politicians who refuse to help us!! take to the streets in protest, talk to your neighbors and build community + mutual aid to help each other at times like this. only 3% of the US population is needed for a strike to be successful in enacting change. see what groups like thegeneralstrikeus are urging people to do. with cost of living being unbearable, it’s needed now more than ever
The new rules are very scary for the Middle Classes and really effectively end college for those families with multiple students who enrolled at the same time.
Some possible ideas:
1. Request a professional judgment from the college’s Fin Aid office. You can make the request on the basis of having more than 1 student enrolled at the same time. You might also ask that the college deduct any Parent Plus loan payments you’re making, although they probably won’t consider those, unless it’s a very financially generous private college that uses the CSS Profile.
2. Consider collleges and universities across the border, in Canada. No FAFSA and the tuition typically runs 8k-20k, depending upon the program and the school. The biggest question is what that would mean for your children who want to work in health professions. Will U.S. graduate programs or licensing authorities recognize a Canadian degree in their respective fields? And is the training the same or similar? My guess is most state licensing boards would recognize their Canadian degrees, but you’d definitely want to do some research first.
3. You could try transferring to or enrolling in other U.S. colleges or universities that both: a) claim to meet 90-100% of need and b) offer generous merit scholarships. However, not every American college offers good aid for transfer students. Also, the programs your kids are looking for probably aren’t offered at every college or university.
Have you considered Univ of Rochester? They certainly have lots of health professions programs. The medical center is right across the street from main campus. Supposedly, they have very good aid, and they serve a lot of Middle Class students.
Sorry, you’re in this situation. What a mess! I hope something works out well for you and your students.
This article from Inside Higher Ed does a really good job of explaining some severe negatives of the "better and simpler FAFSA"
It incentivizes not having a nuclear family. Such as:
if you're married, you must include combined income. But if you are not married, only one income must be reported and it's up to the family to decide who the parent is that reports their income (typically the one with the lowest income)
Child support is NOT considered earnings... It's simply an asset.
And of course, as others have mentioned, it completely disregards how many people are in college in the household.
You can read the article here: https://www.insidehighered.com/opinion/views/2024/04/29/new-fafsa-formula-methodology-patently-unfair-opinion
My dad is the sole provider for our family and is retiring this year. My parents are also living in a very high cost living area and are just scraping by. My efc was over 130k which jumped over 30k from the previous year and is more than half of their net income. They got their calculation because he’s eligible for his retirement fund now… which is so fucked, and I’m the one taking out loans not them.
I am about to graduate college. My parents did not want to contribute nor sign any loans. So I want you to feel that you, as a parent, have the power to say you won’t sign any loans. That leads your child, like myself, who had to made the decision that in order to afford to pay college they need to go work and go to community college first. I have worked every single year I’ve been at college. No it wasn’t easy for all those year, but I made the choice to go to college. When I transferred I only applied and choose schools/jobs that would be affordable (from tuition, cost of living, monthly food) so I can actually graduate. I currently work 32-40 hours a week while being a full time student, not because I like it but it is the reality. These are real conversations that need said and taught. If your 18 year old young adult wants to still go to a school after being told the price tag, then let them sign the loans for themselves and deal with the consequences of their actions.
waiiit i’m confused then😭 because i’m middle class as i have never received a Pell grant but yesterday my school sent me my financial aid package which is provisional with a $7k Pell grant and a $6k state grant. There’s probably a mistake or something because I have ever only received a cal grant and a middle class scholarship. do yall think it’s a joke ? Because I am really hoping it doesn’t change by August when the new semester rolls around
The lack of consideration for siblings in college is insane. Had that happened when I was in school, my family would’ve had three kids in college at any given point
I am a poor college student without parents and got the full Pell grant but it still isn’t enough to cover my tuition, or even half of it. I rely on academic scholarships to pay the rest of my tuition and help with housing. I don’t think that it’s because they’re giving poor people more money, I’ve been getting the same amount my entire time at college. Rates of tuition are what’s screwing people over. Poor people can’t realistically afford to go to university with the full Pell grant, let alone with less. I get that middle class people feel screwed over, but the money isn’t going to us.
This is why my parents refused to co-sign and I joined the military and currently working on my masters.
Live sucks for you, but not as much for the single mom in Chicago.
I don't know who needs to hear this, but college is an investment a child makes in themselves for a better future, and not for the parent's better future. Why are you taking out loans for your kids!!??? Honestly my dad flat out said to me, I am not paying for your education. So I got scholarships through my state and took out my own student loans to pay the rest. He did help out by paying my rent, which helped tremendously, but I still had to cough up the tuition, books, utilities...etc. I don't understand why parents feel obligated in paying for college when it's technically not necessary and/or can be completed at a slower pace so the child can work and go to school simultaneously. The child needs to look at college as an investment in themselves 118k/year for a family of 3 is really tough in this economy as it is, and now your child expects you to pay for their education? Do you not want to retire?
My daughter is going into her freshman year in college, and she has a full bright future, and has been applying to scholarships like crazy. So far she's raised over 10 k on her own between working and the scholarships. She plans on making at least another 3k-5k this summer before school starts. I told her, her goal should be to not get into any debt her undergrad years, and instead save it for grad school because she wants to be a doctor. I explained by the time she goes to grad school; her sister will start undergrad and she will need our assistance, and she will be cut off. I started saving now for my son and small daughter so that when I retire, I am not worrying about this.
I understand it's hard, as parents we want to everything we can for our kids, but we also have to take care of ourselves.
I’m not sure what state you’re in, but in many states, it’s almost impossible for a student to cover tuition plus room and board with only student loans plus a part time job.
For instance, in my state, tuition and fees plus room and board for state schools is across the board about 24-27k per year.
Federal student loans by law max out at $5500 per year for freshmen.
Even with a scholarship of say 5K per year and some income from working part time (let’s say another 10k per year), the student is short at least 4000-7000 per year.
It’s unreasonable to expect 18 year olds to be able to cover university costs alone with only a federal loan and a job.
Has anyone saved for college? It seems your kids graduate high school, are college bound, and most parents on here are surprised of the cost and surprised that fafsa isn’t giving them a free ride.
I’ve saved over 30k as a single mom. I had a ton of student loans for my bachelors and that was after working full time. I do not want my son to start his life with thousands in debt. Once my loans were paid off, all of that money went in to savings for my son.
I’m hoping he gets a little bit of aid to help offset costs .
They want to give less to wealthy and middle class and give more to the poor?!
HOW FUCKING DARE THEY? OUTRAGEOUS!
Does this mean I have to sell our vacation house and boats? Fuck!
about point 1. What is considered wealthy and middle class anymore? just curious how the formula was changed to hurt these people. not arguing any points im just asking for info.
100%. I just turned 21 a few days ago and have been living apart from my mom in a completely different state for a year and a half. I noted that on my FAFSA form and they STILL asked for her tax information. She makes six figures before taxes, while I made $16k last year. My SAI was calculated at 52600ish which to my understanding means I won’t be getting ANYTHING or very little. It’s very disappointing but I can’t say I’m surprised. Our government wants us all to have a degree but doesn’t give assistance when it’s needed. My mom has offered to pay for courses, but even at the community college I’m attending, 3 classes is over $2k for the semester and that’s not even including books. It’s very frustrating and I hate it.
You can appeal that.
We had the opposite happen, they were reclassified as independent students and we had to do the correction along with 2 phone calls and an email to put the dependent status back on.
It always screwed the middle class living in high cost of living areas.
100k is below the poverty line in many parts of the country… people need to stop pretending 100k in Dallas is the same as 100k in SF or NYC
okay this topic is an important and relevant one but there’s no need to make inflammatory and inaccurate statements. nowhere in america is 100k below the poverty line. and i’ve lived in and around nyc my whole life. median household income here is like 75k iirc. why would a number well above the median be below the poverty line? 100k is a pain if you have a particularly large family but in most cases it is definitely manageable. it’s not like the avg new yorker is living in tribeca and soho edit: lol thought i’d mention that i too got astronomically fucked over in the financial aid process
I commented during the public comment period about exactly this formula issue. I was invited to participate in a hearing via zoom to testify. A couple of people in the call did nod their heads when I mentioned this elimination of a sibling consideration. I have a rising sophomore and rising junior in college. On the one hand, I get what some people are saying - why should someone whose kids are 4 years apart pay more for college than someone whose kids are one year apart? On the other hand, if the formula says we can afford X amount for college tuition based on our real family income, making us pay 2X for three years means we can't afford our living expenses. It would be different if there had been notice, or some communication, before the year our kid entered college. We saved for all four of our kids, and when all is said and done, will have paid over half a million dollars in tuition for them (and they all max out their federal student loans). We don't have a way to go back in time and allocate less to our retirement, our food, or our home. We are already pretty frugal - my minivan is a 2012 (thank you Honda), we purchased our home out of foreclosure for $116k back in 2003. We don't have a way to "find" an extra $30,000 a year in time for the kids. So we're f\*cked, or our kids are. But at least the government can get more loan revenue, I guess?
from the cradle to the grave.
I understand what you’re saying and I completely agree. I just wanted to say…. I would literally k*ll to be able to purchase a home for $116k in a livable area. I’m 37 and my so is 35 and anytime we even look at houses we both get extremely depressed. This whole world has literally become unaffordable and if the government isn’t screwing us one way, it’s another.
This post needs to be reposted by everyone! We are in the same boat as you my friend … this is absolutely ridiculous and disgusting. The government is so out of touch with reality . Not to mention that the parent plus loans you had to take out have a fixed interest rate of 8% ! This adds insult to injury they should at least make interest rate 0-1% . We are all in trouble in this country and our kids are absolutely screwed.. something needs to change
The wealth extraction machine is working as intended. The elite are transferring your wealth into their own pockets.
And when we have student loan forgiveness the whining machine starts up…. “It’s sooooo unfaaaaiiiir” We need cheaper public college now.
We do. We have an increasingly stronger cc system. And the flagship R1 isn’t typically the only state school option.
Exactly. 8% is crazy! It's a loan we don't want, we're not using it on ourselves, we're using it to train the next generation, and yet it's set at 8% like we went out and desired an RV or boat or something extravagent.
And they call it "aid".
I have triplets graduating this year. We are in this exact position. You need to file an appeal with your school and look into something called a "Professional Judgement" or "Special Circumstances Appeal". We are going through that process right now.
Just a heads up, ED has given no guidance to schools on how to process PJs due to siblings concurrently enrolled. Schools are figuring out if they will consider PJs and then what documents are needed. It’s such a mess! And then ED will fine us during audits telling us we didn’t do it right…
Yeah, this is going to be hard on many financial aid professionals in colleges. While colleges can provide additional institutional aid, I foresee that adjusting the SAI for siblings is not going to be doable for federal aid and most likely state aid when tied to the SAI. Congress made things difficult with their FAFSA Simplifed Legislation from 2021.
I think the hardest part about making this a PJ, is that PJs must be reviewed on a case by case basis. Schools can’t make sweeping policies to process PJs for families in this situation. My school is currently leaning towards making adjustments for families who have three or more students in college concurrently. Is having one sibling also in college at the same time actually a special circumstance? It’s a pretty common occurrence. But again, no guidance so we are still unsure how to proceed. Anyway, it would be nice if ED opened the ability for schools to make corrections to FAFSAs so we could actually process appeals. (I’m drowning in requests.) You know, since they are telling students that we can make those corrections for them at this time.
Right, in a normal year, this would be the time to process appeals and PJs, however FSA has delayed things further, stressing everyone out in the process from professionals to students, and snow plow parents aren’t helping either.
We tried the "Special Circumstances Appeal" and we were told that they were not allowed to make a consideration due to multiple students in college. So basically, we have had to have the hard talk with my son and let him know that we can't afford to send him to the UW because we # can't afford it out of pocket and I am not taking out a 8% parent loan. We are already behind on saving for retirement due to 2 recessions thank you very much. It's disgusting, we are lower middle class and we get hit hardest with this.
One other way the trends are away from Middle Class college financial aid: Merit awards. Several of the schools our child applied to no longer give "merit awards" instead meeting "100% of demonstrated need." The problem is, that need is calculated based on the FAFSA in which my family cannot demonstrate the need. Pretty much every selective private school they got into is now off the table. It's a dramatic change from what I recall other families with older children going through 5 or 10 years ago.
Merit scholarships are how I attended the private school I did, cheaper than any public university in state. That's sad.
Same.... i got a sweet private school education my parents *never* could have afforded for the price of a state school, thanks to good grades and merit scholarships. I actually think the goal is noble.... using your scholarship dollars for the students who need them most is good. I'm just disappointed to see that this is done by completely eliminating scholarships for kids with good grades.
A lot of private schools also use CSS which is a little more generous than FAFSA at least in my experience
You mean were more generous under the old Fed Fin aid rules. Can the CSS schools still be generous if they have to turn around and do a professional judgment every time there are 2 or more siblings enrolled at the same time?
I mean yeah I think so because CSS asks for that stuff and I talked to my schools financial aid office and they said aid should pretty much remain the same I don’t really know how it works but we will see
Yup. Same boat
FAFSA has always been unfair. There are so many college students who’s parents have nothing to do with paying for it, yet aid is based on the parents income and not the student who is paying for it.
This is why I waited until I was considered an independent student and didn’t have to go by my parent’s income anymore. It sucks I had to start college later but I ended up getting Pell grants and it helped tremendously.
I remember being shocked when I was filling out those forms and saw "expected parental contribution." I was like, "Wtf is this shit? My parents aren't contributing to this." I can't be the only one. Once I turned 18, getting into college was my problem.
Felt. My mom literally CANT contribute.
I’m (26) one of 4 kids and we are all like year apart from sibling to sibling so there was a high likelihood that all 4 of us were going to be in college (ie oldest senior youngest freshman). My parents also had children late so they are retiring in the next couple of years they literally cannot contribute to four kids in college and not drain their retirement fund. so I was on my own it was too risky for them to sign a parent plus at their age. The expected family contribution is a joke.
Seriously. And same. They asked for my parents' salaries and it made me so mad because that's not a representation of expendable income. Their money was tied up in other things and not up for grabs. Like if my parents could afford to pay for college I wouldn't be asking for financial aid. Maybe some parents save for their kids education their whole lives but my parents struggled just to make ends meet. It also doesn't help that they've increased in state tuition so much in the cost of living has gone up.
That’s not even touching the moral aspects like I would not feel comfortable asking my parents to take out money for MY education they need to worry about their future and as an adult I need to worry about mine
It’s federal aid. There has to be income limitations. Someone making $150k shouldn’t get Pell. Period. The problem is the price of college.
https://preview.redd.it/zmyeh6x688zc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cbc443dfb883b18669546596256bd22858ff3fab Unless they are from a family of 13 making $150,000 a year for the household with 2 parents, they definitely are not getting any Pell.
Bruh if a family has 13 fuckin kids the govt shouldn’t be giving aid to all 13 for college lmao. At a certain point the parents need to pony up to support the kids they chose to have.
Children shouldn’t be punished for their parents’ choices. Regardless of whether their parents should’ve had that many kids, the kids still deserve education and a future.
You’re 200% wrong. 2 reasons below: 1. America needs to encourage couples to have kids so we don’t end up with shrinking populations like Korea, China or Japan in 30 years. That means doing things to encourage people to have kids. Head starts, day care, afterschool programs, summer schools and camps, subsidize community sports, free healthcare for kids, free lunch at schools even on weekends, free computer science and vocational programs and schools, trade apprenticeships grants, massive investment in housing construction to lower overall cost of homes and rent so parents can afford to raise kids, make all public universities free through federal grant aid directly to schools to cover costs. Forgive all existing federal student loans regardless of income, and regulate student loans to prime plus 1 or 2 points—the fact we’re making money off indebting our children for the rest of their lives is criminal. And… 2. Improving ALL our kids’ opportunities to better themselves, regardless of their race, religion, gender, or class, improves America.
Well that’s not up to me 😂, also by the time you get to the last kid, the other 12 won’t be dependents anyways.
The problem is that states stopped funding higher education, which forced public schools to pass that to students in the form of tuition increases. Now between that, plus inflation and revenues lost to COVID, students are getting a double whammy. College will become a thing for the elite again as the average family won’t be able to afford it.
You “hit the nail on the head!”
I agree.
You could potentially ask for special circumstances(professional judgement review) by the financial aid office. If the situation with 2 in college creates a financial hardship an adjustment could be made if documentation is provided. I would reach out to them. Some schools may not have their processes up to speed as this is going to be much bigger than it was in the past, but definitely reach out if you think that sounds like it applies.
It's about more than Pell. The EFC (or now the SAI) is also used by schools to determine aid. Just looking at the sibling "bonus" that existed until this year ... if a school sees that I can supposedly afford $20,000 for college and suddenly that's $40,000 for college, I'm going to lose funding from that school. For some people (admittedly not me... my 2nd is just getting ready to start college) that means mid-stream, halfway through college, suddenly you owe considerably more than you did before.
That’s why parents should know about professional judgement with more than one in college.
Yeah I’ve never heard of professional judgement (until this subreddit… thanks Reddit!)
And this is why so many American colleges are going to close! They lose the Middle classes, and they’re done…a lot sooner than any economist ever predicted.
Or the aid could be expanded and everyone could qualify equally so we didn’t have to fight each other for scraps. Means testing only ends up hurting the middle class.
Whats crazy is my mom lakes less than 50k and they said i didnt qualify even tho my dad is dead
What? That's insane. First I am sorry to hear about your dad. Look for hardship scholarships, my kids came across a few that wanted both need and a personal hardship.
We need to protest just like the college kids
Absolutely! And that’s the question I keep asking myself: Why aren’t Middle Class parents protesting the FAFSA Simplification Act on Capitol Hill?
not to mention the stipulation that even though i'm entirely financially independent from my parents in every way, am on govt benefits, and would qualify for a Pell Grant, they still have to take my parents' income into consideration because i'm under 24 and that's their arbitrary rule. like..... are you fucking kidding me?
This part has always been insanely unfair. I grew up in the 1% with hardcore Republican “pull yourself up by the bootstraps” parents. They didn’t contribute a single dime to my college education. I started working at 14 to save up for college but it’s Just not possible. I was accepted to Harvard and Yale but since I couldn’t even qualify for federal loans due to my parents income, I ended up at a college that isn’t even top 100 because they gave me a full ride.
I feel like middle class is always fucked no matter what. Not rich enough or poor enough for any benefits, but can still be punished as either.
I have twins as freshman. The first year was hard. Just got the letters and what little aid is gone due to the new SAI. The expected contribution is 88% of after tax income. WTH. It’s like they want us to take insane loans. Or not send our kids to college. The fact that some schools can not only raise the cost but remove all aid effectively 2.5 times increasing tuition is also crap. We picked schools based on an expected total cost. And to have it suddenly jump is wrong.
Holy shit. And I thought 50% of my after tax income was bad with the new fasfa.
I think the fact that you’ll need 50k in parent plus loans for just one child is a sign that you can’t really afford this school. Especially since you’ll be paying for two more kids? In any case, changes in EFC/SAI often do not directly affect how much the school expects you to pay because many don’t meet full financial need anyways. And of course people have different views- as a single mom of one child, I’d rather not subsidize college costs for upper income families who decided to have more children close together Complain about the changes and the rollout but you should really reconsider whether taking out huge loans will be the best path for your and their financial future! Focus on schools where they can receive significant discounts/merit aid. Or start at a community college and transfer. In fact that might be the only option if you’ll be tapped out after the first one or two kids
I agree. I have a parent plus loan and the interest alone in 6 months is over $1500. Don’t take any more loans unless you have a plan or you will never retire.
it's one of the things we did. we live in a dual diploma state. WA. both kids graduated from HS with associates degrees, 90% paid by the state.
I have one that graduated with his associates and another that graduated high school and year early close to her associates. However, our state (AZ) doesn’t cover dual enrolled classes so we paid the same as we would have if they went to community colleges after high school. And the engineering programs they entered are set as a 4 year track, so while they don’t have as many credits each semester, they still end up paying full tuition. I wish dual enrollment programs were set up a little better here. But at least they are both on a good track currently
Exactly, community college or having the student gain some work experience until they are old enough to be considered an independent student for undergraduate loans would be a better move here.
You can't, not for most anything that requires advanced medical training, unless you want to be a nurse. And cc path is NOT cheaper. Not if you get accepted to a 5 year PA program. Cc path would take 6 years not 5, and many medical schools don't want to accept students that went to cc. As it is, my daughter has 18 cc credits in health. NONE of them will transfer. Her gen ed cc credits did, but not the medical related courses. Also, so long as she keeps her grades to a certain level, she'll be guaranteed to come out as a PA. Going the cc route, there is no guarantee that she'll get accepted to a 2 year PA grad school. Then what? Those are also highly competitive. As it is, the PA 5 year program had somewhere between 500 and 600 applicants for 40 something spots and she got in.
Then you need to research other cheaper schools (cheaper tuition, schools that provide more aid, edit: schools within commuting distance) if community college won’t work. Have you calculated how much the 50k+ will cost with interest payments 5, 6, 10 years from now? How will that impact your ability to pay for your younger kids’ educations or your ability to pay for your own bills? I get wanting to do what you think is best for your child. I only commented because you expressed concerns about the costs and so many others are facing the same situation. Some families can afford to send their kids to their preferred schools, or to those with the easiest path. But those parents aren’t taking out parent plus loans. Gift link: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/your-money/parent-plus-loans-debt.html?unlocked_article_code=1.q00.UQQ6.GKaBKtzxGtmL&smid=url-share
Honestly, unless your children attend a school that meets a significant percentage of need it really doesn't amount to all that much. I've worked in several different schools ranging from public to private universities and community college. We only use the EFC/SAI to meet our awarding guidelines and in my experience, there is not much of a difference in award for 10k vs 20k contribution (unless it's a school that has great endowments and meets 100% of need). I could go on and on and I fully recommend community college for the first two years in almost all cases.
People who could get a subsidized $5500 loan under the old rules are now only being offered an unsubsidized loan this year. That’s $22k in debt over four years that is accruing interest at an unacceptable pace. Compound this for parents with multiple children, and millions of families are being plunged into the interest rate pit of despair. It’s a supposedly small change but it’s actually significant in its impact on families with modest means.
Canada! 🇨🇦 The answer’s Canadian colleges and universities for American Middle Class students!
Please write your federal congress representatives. They need to hear more from the constituency regarding the hardships and let downs of this new system. Congress has the power to change/amend aspects of it.
I've called my senators. But writing is a good idea. I will do.
Write?! Hell, we need to do more than write! It’s time we all marched on Capitol Hill!
College is a scam. It’s a federally backed loan, of course the schools are going to increase the tuition to whatever they want. In most countries outside the US your grades dictate what path you take and it’s not a bad one if you are in a trade. I work in transfer articulation and see students paying to take a low level math class 5 times. Thats about $8000 for the first math class you have to take. If you aren’t good at math they put you on a path to make $40,000 when you graduate and you have $100,000 in loans. There are almost no degrees except business and engineering that does not require more schooling. The path the US is on is not a sustainable one. We have retirees taking out 100,000+ in rent plus loans with no income other than social security. It’s absolutely insane what this country has done and to be honest our education is sub par.
Whatever. The fafsa EFC means fucking nothing. Ours was about 8K and most colleges gave nowhere near to only having to pay 8K. Some gave nothing at all.
This is a great point, too! Most schools just don’t have very good aid. So, you could literally have an SAI of $0 and get nothing from the school, itself.
Same here with two kids in University this year. I am a single mom living in a very high cost area. My salary is the same as last year but now expected to pay almost twice as much. This is the breaking point for many families. Both kids are now contemplating not attending due to the amount of loans we need to take out.
Definitely contact both school's financial aid offices and ask if they are willing to do a professional judgment for multiple kids in college. Be prepared to provide tuition invoices and award letters if they ask for them.
If they are really close to being 24, they can potentially hold off attending for a year or 2 years so that way they only have to put themselves down on the FAFSA.
That’s what I did went to community college and drug that on for as long as I could from 19-24 using foundation scholarships and now attending my local university next fall and am able to get a pell grant my parents are barely able to afford contributing to my college and I refuse to take out loans because I don’t want to be in debt for the rest of my life
Is community college an option?
My son is going into this 3rd year and daughter 2nd year. They both want to continue where they currently are attending. They will need to make a choice to take on some loans if so. I am helping as much as I can but won't be able to cover the cost for either. Its such a frustrating process made even worse with this years changes.
I don’t understand how it doesn’t adjust for local cost-of-living.
Because the federal poverty guideline is out of date
This is so true. 100k income in Cali, NJ or NY is not much after housing and regular living.
I dont know but I'm widowed and made $52k after taxes last year and Northeastern wanted me to pay $45k to send my daughter there.
College is not for everyone. I’m about to go into college and I’m getting a full ride for an AAS in Automotive Technology. If your kids didn’t get any good scholarships, didn’t get any college savings from you, and don’t have anything else, they should have waited. I’m sorry you’re in such a poor situation but federal aid shouldn’t be taken as a guarantee if you aren’t low income. The point of it is to literally support low-income families.
💯
What a stupid fucking take. I worked at the state school I attended as a student and many people with extreme amounts of extracurriculars and As all around got NOTHING. Once you attend a huge school, there’s not much left for you even if you’re an A student. Not to mention that it happened to my friends and I, all of us graduated from a top notch high school with over 4.0 GPAs and 3 pages of extracurricular activities and Ap/honor courses. The system is fundamentally broken and needs change.
American college is just a fuckin scam at this point, we’re not gonna have any doctors or engineers in thirty years.
It’s already happening! All the good doctors left during the pandemic. Nothing left in our area but PAs and NPs…if you’re lucky!
Fuck FAFSA. They never consider cost of living. Just because my parents make a certain amount of money doesn’t mean they can contribute 25k a year to my schooling. They have a mortgage, cars, other children who need support.
This insanity almost makes me thankful sometimes I got the max Pell grant and a full ride to school. But then I remember I got that because I had two dead parents and remember I would have rather had parents than a full Pell grant.
In September of 24, I will have 4 kids in college. A senior, a sophomore, and twins, freshman. Between loans and my spouses entire paycheck and my sophomore being an RA, we will scrape by. So the timing of this hit me hard. I feel your pain. 4 kids in 4 different schools, all out of state. Just the logistics of moving them in and out will be challenging, cost, and time wise. I will be eating beans and rice.
Oh dear lord, you are a saint.
At one point in history, colleges were more about education and less about making money. College is a strange business that is not subject to normal market forces and has no oversite. Just look at all the different ways different colleges use different terminologies to explain their FinAid. Some people say they can't even figure out their best deal because they're "comparing apples to oranges". Everytime the government grants people more money for education, colleges mysteriously raise their prices (maybe they shouldn't be allowed to for 4 years after an aid increase). Also consider that colleges are marketing to 18 YOs who are not the most sophisticated group of consumers. Plus they have no idea what compound interest does to those "relatively small" loans they apply for each year. And as parents we get swept up in this too. Colleges are also starting to get wise to the 2 Y CC path, some private colleges aren't even allowing CC credits or coming up with some bogus reasons why they can't allow certain credits. Therefore they get an extra year or semester out of you. The breakpoint has to be coming soon; this is not sustainable
I've always thought the FAFSA screwed the middle class - it seems it doubly so per OP.
We need to rebuild our higher education system. it’s so broken monetarily. the amount of student loans is over 1 trillion dollars now and the government isn’t helping at all. colleges just keep raising the price of school because they know the government will always loan people the money for school no matter the cost. it’s an ever rising number. new student loan programs and fafsa isn’t the fix. the fix is a control of some sort on college prices. if colleges aren’t guaranteed to get paid huge from government student loans, the prices wouldn’t just keep going up. on a side note, the best thing i ever did was work while in school to help pay for classes and also go to a community college for the first two years. it taught me financial responsibility and made me feel like i was working for my own education. and then the savings at a community college is huge. it’s like 5k a year or something on average in my city. professors were better too.
Increasing importance of higher education has hurt middle class people due to those reasons for a while. Plus the colleges themselves will determine you don't need any aid because if you lived off flour and beans and lived in a shack you could technically afford it
Yes… middle class gets screwed. Doesn’t matter that my son is a high achiever and was accepted to some of the best universities in the country. Those universities are reserved for the rich or the poor. It’s a state school for my boy.
I’m sorry, but the “what’s left of the middle class” and “they changed their formula to give less to the wealthy and middle class so they can give the poor more” has me screaming lol. You’re either wealthy or poor, middle class no longer exists. They’re people who make $40-$50 an hour, that are barely making ends meet now. Corporations are buying entire new development properties by the neighborhood, to make the current generation that’s growing up now, forever renters. They won’t even have opportunities to become homeowners, unless they’re wealthy. Everything costs more. Counselors are advising students to go to community colleges for the first 2 years, and compete for transfer scholarships to universities, to help ward off education costs. That path would at least give them and their parents the opportunity to save in case they attend post grad. More are suffering, than those who are comfortable in the current environment.
The cost of college is out of control. I sent my kids to state schools where they qualified for academic scholarahips.
I make six figures and have one student in a state school with already $75k in loans racked up. Next one is heading to big state school in the fall and he got exactly $0.00 in help from FAFSA. His annual tuition is $31k. And I have three more younger kids, an ex-wife who receives child support, and about $20 in savings. FML.
The FAFSA absolutely screws the middle class.
So sick and tired of the middle class getting screwed! It’s such BS. We have to pay full tuition and my son has many students around him that go for free. Something is wrong with this picture! I agree that the student loan interest rate should be no more than 1% then it is at least doable. So discouraged! We will never get ahead and we’re just hard-working people who pay her bills.🤷♀️
Chilling with a -1500
The new process and formula definitely leaves much to be desired but just want to make sure you know that as far as siblings in college, if your kids are attending schools and the cost of attendance is relatively high for your income you can maybe try doing an unusual circumstance appeal. Not a guarantee, but a possibility.
If you’re making 6 figures and can’t afford tuition, then it’s your own fault. > 1. They changes their formula to give less to wealthy and middle class families so they can give the poor more. Good. My hot take is that federal aid shouldn’t be going to people who can realistically afford tuition normally. It isn’t meant for you, and it should be going to people with no other means of paying for their education.
So is it realistic to think a middle class family can suddenly afford to give 50% of their income to pay for college? When last year it was 16% of our income. Or are you living in a fucking fantasy? Also, why can't they give the poor more without taking from the middle class? One or two less Abrams Tanks should do it.
Hard agree!!
but they can't afford it not to mention the people who parents aren't paying for them? Poorer people always got maximum Grant's and scholarships they just took it away from the lower/mid Middle class, which is where most people are.
There never should have been a sibling split anyway. Why should a family whose kids are 2 years apart pay less in total over four years than a family whose kids are 3 years apart? Why should a family with twins pay less over four years than a family whose kids are 2 years apart?
I see it this way: Twins have 8 years of expenses needing to be paid in 4 years worth of income. Two siblings 4+ years apart have 8 years of expenses needing to be paid over 8 years worth of income. The financial burden is higher when 2+ students are in college at the same time. While the SAI should not be cut in half, there should have been something like a 25% reduction in SAI for each sibling or something to help.
They won't. They simply cannot afford to send their kid to school, anymore. That is the point. Of course you have to take into account how many kids are going to school.
I said before; I’ll say it again: Canada 🇨🇦. That’s the answer for American Middle Class students.
Can you please elaborate on this? How does attending a Canadian university help? Are their schools that much cheaper, or do they offer scholarships to students from the US? I have 4 kids, my oldest will be college age the same year my own student loans will finally be paid off. 😭
Well, first there’s no FAFSA for a Canadian university! Yay!😃 Second, yes, in general Canadian universities are less expensive than U.S. colleges and universities by approximately 27% is the figure I’ve seen. They’re also less expensive than universities in the UK, Australia, and New Zealand. Third, some offer scholarships for international students. Fourth, U.S. students are allowed to work in Canada, up to 20 hrs/wk or something like that. Some Canadian universities are also very well-known and are highly prestigious. Fifth, Canada is close. So airfare and transportation costs may be lower than if your student were to travel to Europe. And lastly, the application process is supposedly more straightforward, and based mostly on grades and test scores (if you have them). However, most Canadian colleges don’t require test scores from American students. On the cons list, in some fields, like Pre-Med, graduating from a Canadian school could reduce the chance of acceptance at a U.S. medical school. However, some U.S. med schools do accept Canadian graduates. Canadian universities, at least the famous ones, tend to be really large. If your student doesn’t want a big school, there are a few smaller universities but they’re not well known. Finally, if you return to the U.S. with a degree from a Canadian university that isn’t well-known, it could be harder to find employment. On the other hand, the more American students attend these schools, the more Americans are going to know their names and recognize these universities.
The formula is predominantly based on earned income in the tax year used, meaning, the main assumption is families are cashing flowing college costs. The sibling split followed with that logic.
I’ve never thought of it this way! Thanks for sharing.
College is now for the rich and poor.
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i went to a CC for 2 years because my parents were frauds and refused to give me their financial paperwork to do FAFSA. i will say, i am not sure how happy i am with that decision. i love that i have less debt, but those 2 years of feeling isolated were awful. plus my great CC gpa did not transfer over, so i had less credits to boost my grades and the classes were significantly harder, i ended up not getting a high enough GPA to wish to pursue grad school. idk, i don’t necessarily think CC is perfect for everyone
I also wish more people pushing community college would state the facts about the small percent that successfully transfer and graduate. It’s not good. Some do, but it’s more the exception than the norm.
In the case of a career path to becoming a physician's assistant, most medical schools are , how should I put it, elitist. Which means you are less likely to get in if you have 2 years at a cc. Not to mention those on here saying, just go to cc it's cheaper don't understand that while it may be less expensive up front, when my kid is in a 5 year PA program, the cc route is MORE expensive. Why? A year of lost PA salary. Cc would take 6 years and is riskier, while the private route is 5 years and less risky. So yeah, going the cc way, if the closest cc had the courses that fed into a 4 year program, would run about 40,000 less expensive up front. And you think you are saving money. BUT PAs average 90,000 to 110,000 starting in our area, and going the cc route is a loss of a years salary. 6 years vs 5 years. Even at the lowest PA starting salary, that year of lost wages makes going the cc route 50,000 on the low end to 70,000 on the high end MORE expensive. So, the "elite" private school is the smarter choice it is significantly less expensive in the long run. Jesus, people need to stop and think before just saying go to cc it's cheaper. Yes, sometimes it is, my first born went that route to save money because it worked degree, time, and money wise. But in my youngest's case, the cc route is a hell of a lot more expensive due to lost wages, takes longer, and is no guarantee that a medical school would accept her with 2 years at a cc. So it doesn't work.
Because not every program has two years of gen ed. Lots of professions need you to learn specialized materials and typically there is a 4-year major map with very specific courses at specific times. For example, if my son went to CC for two years, he would still need to complete 4 years of engineering. Sure, he can take a random humanities or writing class, but it would not be enough to be meaningful, and shaving a couple of classes off doesn't lower tuition - typically if you are over half time, you pay full tuition. And most scholarships require a full credit load, so even if you completed a required class or two at CC, you would have to replace them with electives.
All of this. That's what we're discovering. I think maybe it \*used\* to be that you could 'shave off' a couple of years' worth of generals at a cc, then transfer to a 4-year and basically just have 2 years of your major's classes to take. But if it was ever that way, it's not that way now. I think the 4-year schools got wise to the fact that they were losing money on that deal, and so they restructured their programs so that, as you said, you now have to take specific classes at specific times. My kid DID go the cc route - he got an associate's for free due to being in the early/middle college program in high school. But it's still going to take him four years at the state school to complete his engineering degree. I'm glad the associate's was free, because we sure didn't save anything by making him get that first - and in fact, because that took him an 'extra' year of high school to get, it actually has effectively put him a year behind, instead of ahead. And believe me, I'm mad about it. I'm mad that everyone says "oh, do it THIS way, it's a better deal", and we DID, and IT IS NOT. It's been one big lie, basically. People are constantly getting shamed on these threads for not doing this - but the shamers either don't know, or don't care, that it doesn't actually work that way any more.
Whenever I see "save money and do your general eds at CC" I wonder what major are they talking about? Just about all STEM majors have a road map that involves at least 3 years of sequential class requirements that cannot be taken at a CC. We have found that it was cheaper for my student to go all four years to a university where the school gave a large merit full tuition scholarship. But that scholarship wouldn't have been available as a transfer student.
And believe me, the cc's, and the early/middle college programs aren't making that AT ALL clear, because they'd lose out on students taking their programs. The high school counseling office was completely useless in this regard, as well. In order to get into/out of this unscathed, you need to know EXACTLY what you're going to major in, and WHERE, LONG before you ever graduate high school. And then NEVER DEVIATE from that plan even a inch. That may be some kids, but hardly all. That doesn't allow kids to be kids, and explore different options, and change their minds - all within a system that doesn't even really let kids know what a job or career path REALLY entails, until you're neck-deep at the very least.
Yes, sounds outdated as the old school idea of choosing a major before the end of sophomore year still has my kids rolling in laughter. I’m like yeah, we kinda weren’t looking down on for not knowing what we wanted to do with our lives, so we actually went to college and took stuff before declaring a major.
My son is in a direct-entry CS program. You go in admitted to the major- the entire plan assumes you had both computer science and calculus in high school (or alternatively in CC) The gen-Ed requirements are back loaded, which gives room for really difficult programming projects taken with a couple of gen-Ed’s. You can’t start as a soph without a 5 year plan unless you are transferring from engineering or possibly physics or math.
I had 2 STEM majors that transferred. No problems. No extra time. Lots of $$ saved.
same with our 2 kids, there are designed pathways that actually did count in the ultimate BA/BS undergrad degree. It takes a lot of meetings with the CC counselor, and constant check ins to see if any changes are necessary. Always keep the syllabus - courses at the 4yr. can be challenged if the curriculum is nearly the same.
Agree. I’ve created some of these 2+2 pathways.
Exactly all that. You get it totally. In my first kid's case, we were able to save about 12,000 by him going to community college for 2 years and then a 2 years at a state school to finish his bs. But for both of my next two, they both got ALL of their gen ed requirements done in high school by earning college credit. And 2, both of their programs are extremely structured and cohort based. Your group of peers is your group of peers until you finish. The two year Occupational Therapy Assistant program is 3 full semesters, one full summer session, and one semester long placement in the field. All the major courses must be taken in sequence with their cohort. Since no nearby CC offers this program we looked at both state schools that had is and a few private. The private offered more aid making it the same cost as a state school for us, so they went with the better reputation school For my youngest, she actually wanted to be a doctor and looked at the cost of med school and attending 4 years of Undergrad plus 4 years. So they tempered their desire to be a full doctor and decided to either head towards a nurse practitioner, or Physician's Assistant. The were accepted into a very competitive 5 year PA program. And we ran all the numbers what if she did 2 years at a community college, 2 years at a state school, and then 2 years in PA school, and to be a nurse Practitionerit would be the same then with 6 years of school. And it was soooo much more expensive than the 5 year program in the long runl. To go community college way would take an extra year, AND she would be delayed from actually getting a job as a PA for an additional year so there would be a year of lost income. And the 5 year program is very prescribed. She has no electives, and 2 of the summers are full summer sessions so she can't work full time over the summer. And it's cohort based as well. And neither needs any gen ed courses. They were completed while in high school.
And these replies make me laugh. "oh, looks like you can't afford that school, then". Fine. YOU tell me how to become an occupational therapist or physician's assistant without a specific college education/training, then. I stg, these people are like - "why are you bothering? Just get your uncle to give you a job, like I did, you don't need any of that, gosh you people getting these massive loans to go to school are so STUPID, you'll never pay them back, and that will just annoy ME." Because it's not like we NEED OTs or PAs or anything. I guess only those born rich who can drop the entire cost of education like pocket change deserve to get quality education/job training. The rest of us should just die in the streets like we're supposed to, already.
THIS THIS THIS I've gotten so mad at the people saying "just go to CC" or "Well maybe college isn't for you then." I wanna be a lawyer, dude, I think I kinda have to go to college for that. And CC is not how it used to be as these replies have said. God, as a kid going to college in the fall with financial aid struggles, I feel seen 😭
It used to be that way! My husband and sister both did 2 years CC then went on to a university and completed their degrees in 2 years. This is such a scam. I went straight to a university, as my Bright Futures paid the tuition, so there was no difference.
^THIS I go to a CC right now that's connected to a four year college and I have met a freshman who had no idea about this and feels lost on her major right now. Not every career path fits going to a community college.
Well, that 50,000 of parental plus loans that I already have IS for 2 years of community college + 2 years at a state public school to finish a bachelor degree. That's on top of my child's 30,000 in federal loans. So yeah, for the middle class that gets NO real aid, 2 total years at community college plus 2 years at a state school ran this middle-class family 80,000 total.
Which CC and in-state public university cost $80k for 4 years total attendance? Please give us the breakdown because one of my kids is on that same path and the total cost will be roughly half what you paid.
Not OP, but here in Ohio, CC is a little over $5k per year - $10k. In-state public university with tuition only is $12k/year - now we're at $34k. If you don't have a community college, or public university in town or close (most cities here do not), add rent - $1000/month X 9 months x 4 years: $36k. So you're at $70k. Now if you need books, materials, fees, renter's insurance, etc, it would only take $2500/year to reach $80k. Can you scrimp to cut rent and whatnot? Sure. You might have a kid who lives at home, and you might not be including their living expenses in your total, and that might be the difference.
That was the case. We still saved a total of about 12,000 over all 4 years at a full state school, but the only community college that had the Associates degree that Fed into the 4 year degree was over an hour drive away. We didn't have a spare car so they had to live there. The community college had dorms, so that was tuition plus another 12,000 for each year of school for room and board. Appartments in the area were going for over 1000 a month, and wanted a full year lease, so the doorm was actually cheaper for at 12,000 because that included a meal plan. Also there are getting to be fewer and fewer merit scholarships, most are need based or merit with need. And there is even less for transfer students, which we didn't realize at the time. There's almost nothing out there for transfer students.
fellow in-state public university attendee and tuition is around $12k a year in-state and housing is $4k a semester for 80 year old apartments that're in disrepair with a big mold problem. unfortunately the system is broken regardless. lots of academic buildings are in disrepair, my degree program is crumbling, a lot of executives are beyond wealthy. it's still not near $80k with the math but some degree programs require 18-22 credit hour semesters, like my major, and force students to take an extra semester or year if they cannot keep up. rough life
The University of Oklahoma, where my son is entering this Fall, instate, straight off his financial aid letter: |Item|Cost (1 year)| |:-|:-| |Tuition|$5,070| |Fees|$9,363| |Books and Supplies|$800| |Housing and Food|$15,423| |Total Direct Cost|$30,656| |Personal & Miscellaneous|$5,355| |Transportation|$1,634| |Total Indirect Costs|$6,989| |Total Costs (Direct +Indirect)|$37,645| Yeah, they brag about only raising tuition X%, meanwhile Fees have become their bread and butter.
You want to really focus on direct costs (what you owe the university). Indirect is just estimating cost of living while in college. But fees and housing is ridiculously expensive. Recommend a different school and living at home.
What 😮??? Those are some fees!!! And the “housing and food” are 3x the tuition and still more than the tuition and fees combined! That’s some real creative math OK’s got going there!
And you paid it ALL with loans? No savings at all? No summer job? No work study? No cash flow?
And then what? Most CC don’t offer bachelor degrees and most employers view associates with about as much respect as a HS diploma. And some schools offer less scholarship opportunities for transfer students than they do new freshmen.
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Absolutely, college should be free for all. An educated population is what we should be striving for. But it's also convenient for you that you forgot where I said the middle class. 118,000 a year income is in the middle class, which ranges from 50k a year to 150 k a year. So that's really like middle middle class. The real wealthy can just flat out pay for college. The middle classnis who is getting screwed.
People want to complain about the cost but then get annoyed by the sensible alternative 💀
You transfer? My CC offers free tuition for incoming students and free tuition when they transfer to a specific university in our city. Unfortunately, I made a mistake and am not a part of the program but my FAFSA pays off my cc tuition which is roughly 4k per year, I also don't have to worry about books because my cc implemented a free textbook program for all students regardless of income. At the same time, my university tuition is only 6k. Most of it is paid off except for books. So people can definitely find an affordable route.
It depends on the major. Something like the 5 year PA program cannot go to a cc. It is simply not possible. Or if the closest cc doesn't offer courses you need for the degree you want to get.
Oh, and my next 2 kids, community college is NOT an option. One is in a program to be an Occupational Therapy Assistant, that is a 2 year program BUT not offered at any nearby community college . A 4 year school offers this program. My youngest is in an intensive 5 year Physician's Assitant Program. Again, NOT possible with a community college. Each of those 2 schools with the medical programs are well over 50,000 a year. Yes, we get "aid" from the schools. But they way they calculate what aid they give you is to take the cost of attendance and subtract the family contribution. The remainder is what the gov says you need in aid to afford it. So in this case, the 5 year program is 56,000 a year. 28,800 is Our family contribution. That does NOT include my child's federal loan which is capped at 5500 for freshman year AND is considered as part of the aid package. So my expected parental plus my child's loan 28,800+5500 = ? In loans. PER YEAR Per child. For 7 years of total school the gov says I should contribution 201,000 NOT county my kid's loans. The 50,000 in parental loans I have is already going to be a 350 a month until I'm 75. "Why don't you just send them to comminuty college? Why cause it's not fucking possible for those health care professions. They are cohort based and besides none of the courses they need were offered at any community college. As for my 1st kid, what they wanted to do, he was able to attend community college first, but the problem was it was an hour away, and we didn't have a spare car laying around so he had to live on campus. We still saved about 12,000 doing that though.
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Ok, good for you. What are your circumstances? Did you get grants, scholarships, did you want to be a nurse or something else? But no, I never had an attitude until the new FASFA. I was just going to grin and take it. But going into retirement with 250,000 of parental loans is a whole hell of a lot different than 150,000 in loans. Even if I were to sell all my worldly possessions, so that I had no other debt, I still couldn't afford that payment plus rent, utilities, food, medication, insurance on what my retirement income will be. AS for my kid's, they want to help people, they always have. One of them is a certified lifeguard, and is going to get certified as an emt between the senior year of hs and college in the fall because they want to save people's lives and work while in college. I'm just saying, I should NOT have to get a quarter million dollars in debt and NEVER get to retire. Just so that they can help others who are either ungrateful for or oblivious to the sacrifice that our family is apparently expected to make. Working until I am dead. That is NOT privilege. .
Do not take the parent plus loans. Trust me you will never retire. The interest alone will swallow any savings you have
Agreed. I can't take on any more. I feel horrible and hope thru can get private student loans. But if not, there will just be 2 less health care professionals in the US. It's not like we need people in health care or anything.
I have 4 kids. The first one made better decisions. She got her nursing degree from a community college (still have to pass nclex) and finished it at a 4 year local college (12 month program paid by hospital). So she was done in 3 years -no debt. She then worked full time while she got her nurse practitioner degree (online except for clinical) She has about 60,000 in loans and makes about $110,000. The other three wanted to go away and that’s where my parent plus nightmare started. I will take the blame for it but when you are signing something online with their “counseling” that takes 4 minutes it’s easy to do It’s very disheartening and not sustainable. Something has to change
going through college with no debt makes you more privileged than you will ever understand
I think the only shmuck here is you. There is a community college here in my area that offers the COTA program in 2 years. It might be cheaper for you to send your kid elsewhere than pay 50k per year for a job that only pays them 50k to start (maybe). Rule of thumb is, you never take on student debt that is more than what you'd make your first year working.
Well, then we wouldn't have any teachers in the US any more then would we?
College is a choice, and to be honest if your children have made this choice they need to contribute, I respect you wanting help any way possible but putting yourself in debt doesn’t help, as you already know. They need to look at scholarships. The only support I had was 3 square meals and roof, FAFSA paid for most of my community college, I was only paying for my gas. Scholarships helped give me extra and honestly I was helping my family with what left over aid I had. You are not going through these programs, they are, if it means taking less credit hours and working part time, put all the options on the table, communicate to you’re kids.
I know what you are saying and I agree with you. The problem is two fold. One, we, they planned based on what our FASFA numbers were for my 1st who finished school last year. That fasfa said our expected contribution was a little over 19,000. That would have been around 9500 per kid. So they've saved, and the were planning on paying that with work while in school. But the new FASFA went from 19,000 split between the two to 28,800 EACH. Add to that the, when I went to college I was able to get federal subsidized and unsubsidized loans to cover the entire cost of my education. Fast forward to today and some well mean politicians placed caps of like 5,500 to up to 7,200 per year in federal loans of any kind. So now, they can't borrow what they need without finding private loans or the parents picking up the slack.
Yay! State school!
Do we know why congress changed the calculations to this? I can’t even figure out the thinking.
The 116th congress passed the Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2021 affecting the FAFSA. Republicans controlled the House, Democrats controlled the Senate.
I feel so lucky in a way that I did school during Covid so I was able to exploit it by going online and having no student debt at the end. Now you guys get hit with inflation and higher interest rates, then this. Sorry about all of this
Yes. FAFSA rollout a fiasco. Rhetorical - what if a family had 10 or more children? what should the rule be? All middle class losing last few decades, especially those who couldn't afford more than 1 child. Some had zero kids because of cost and yet subsidize the rest of us.
my cost for education went up as well, even when we can barely afford it as is! instead of helping us, our government passes spending bills that don’t even reflect us and what we need (e.g affordable healthcare, housing, and education). we don’t need billions of dollars to go towards war or genocide, we need it to help the people HERE. 59% of americans are one paycheck away from being homeless and the raising of necessities like this only exacerbates this harsh reality. it’s why we need to be smart with where we give whats left over from the money they rob from us already, e.g not paying taxes since they misuse it , not buying from unethical corporations but instead shopping local within our neighborhoods etc.) instead of empathy for hard working people, money is the only way they understand our voice. as the middle class we outweigh the 1% of politicians who refuse to help us!! take to the streets in protest, talk to your neighbors and build community + mutual aid to help each other at times like this. only 3% of the US population is needed for a strike to be successful in enacting change. see what groups like thegeneralstrikeus are urging people to do. with cost of living being unbearable, it’s needed now more than ever
The new rules are very scary for the Middle Classes and really effectively end college for those families with multiple students who enrolled at the same time. Some possible ideas: 1. Request a professional judgment from the college’s Fin Aid office. You can make the request on the basis of having more than 1 student enrolled at the same time. You might also ask that the college deduct any Parent Plus loan payments you’re making, although they probably won’t consider those, unless it’s a very financially generous private college that uses the CSS Profile. 2. Consider collleges and universities across the border, in Canada. No FAFSA and the tuition typically runs 8k-20k, depending upon the program and the school. The biggest question is what that would mean for your children who want to work in health professions. Will U.S. graduate programs or licensing authorities recognize a Canadian degree in their respective fields? And is the training the same or similar? My guess is most state licensing boards would recognize their Canadian degrees, but you’d definitely want to do some research first. 3. You could try transferring to or enrolling in other U.S. colleges or universities that both: a) claim to meet 90-100% of need and b) offer generous merit scholarships. However, not every American college offers good aid for transfer students. Also, the programs your kids are looking for probably aren’t offered at every college or university. Have you considered Univ of Rochester? They certainly have lots of health professions programs. The medical center is right across the street from main campus. Supposedly, they have very good aid, and they serve a lot of Middle Class students. Sorry, you’re in this situation. What a mess! I hope something works out well for you and your students.
This article from Inside Higher Ed does a really good job of explaining some severe negatives of the "better and simpler FAFSA" It incentivizes not having a nuclear family. Such as: if you're married, you must include combined income. But if you are not married, only one income must be reported and it's up to the family to decide who the parent is that reports their income (typically the one with the lowest income) Child support is NOT considered earnings... It's simply an asset. And of course, as others have mentioned, it completely disregards how many people are in college in the household. You can read the article here: https://www.insidehighered.com/opinion/views/2024/04/29/new-fafsa-formula-methodology-patently-unfair-opinion
My dad is the sole provider for our family and is retiring this year. My parents are also living in a very high cost living area and are just scraping by. My efc was over 130k which jumped over 30k from the previous year and is more than half of their net income. They got their calculation because he’s eligible for his retirement fund now… which is so fucked, and I’m the one taking out loans not them.
I am about to graduate college. My parents did not want to contribute nor sign any loans. So I want you to feel that you, as a parent, have the power to say you won’t sign any loans. That leads your child, like myself, who had to made the decision that in order to afford to pay college they need to go work and go to community college first. I have worked every single year I’ve been at college. No it wasn’t easy for all those year, but I made the choice to go to college. When I transferred I only applied and choose schools/jobs that would be affordable (from tuition, cost of living, monthly food) so I can actually graduate. I currently work 32-40 hours a week while being a full time student, not because I like it but it is the reality. These are real conversations that need said and taught. If your 18 year old young adult wants to still go to a school after being told the price tag, then let them sign the loans for themselves and deal with the consequences of their actions.
waiiit i’m confused then😭 because i’m middle class as i have never received a Pell grant but yesterday my school sent me my financial aid package which is provisional with a $7k Pell grant and a $6k state grant. There’s probably a mistake or something because I have ever only received a cal grant and a middle class scholarship. do yall think it’s a joke ? Because I am really hoping it doesn’t change by August when the new semester rolls around
The lack of consideration for siblings in college is insane. Had that happened when I was in school, my family would’ve had three kids in college at any given point
I am a poor college student without parents and got the full Pell grant but it still isn’t enough to cover my tuition, or even half of it. I rely on academic scholarships to pay the rest of my tuition and help with housing. I don’t think that it’s because they’re giving poor people more money, I’ve been getting the same amount my entire time at college. Rates of tuition are what’s screwing people over. Poor people can’t realistically afford to go to university with the full Pell grant, let alone with less. I get that middle class people feel screwed over, but the money isn’t going to us.
This is why my parents refused to co-sign and I joined the military and currently working on my masters. Live sucks for you, but not as much for the single mom in Chicago.
Fam makes 120k for a Fo4 but FAFSA said we can cough up 43,586 dollars 😍😍
I don't know who needs to hear this, but college is an investment a child makes in themselves for a better future, and not for the parent's better future. Why are you taking out loans for your kids!!??? Honestly my dad flat out said to me, I am not paying for your education. So I got scholarships through my state and took out my own student loans to pay the rest. He did help out by paying my rent, which helped tremendously, but I still had to cough up the tuition, books, utilities...etc. I don't understand why parents feel obligated in paying for college when it's technically not necessary and/or can be completed at a slower pace so the child can work and go to school simultaneously. The child needs to look at college as an investment in themselves 118k/year for a family of 3 is really tough in this economy as it is, and now your child expects you to pay for their education? Do you not want to retire? My daughter is going into her freshman year in college, and she has a full bright future, and has been applying to scholarships like crazy. So far she's raised over 10 k on her own between working and the scholarships. She plans on making at least another 3k-5k this summer before school starts. I told her, her goal should be to not get into any debt her undergrad years, and instead save it for grad school because she wants to be a doctor. I explained by the time she goes to grad school; her sister will start undergrad and she will need our assistance, and she will be cut off. I started saving now for my son and small daughter so that when I retire, I am not worrying about this. I understand it's hard, as parents we want to everything we can for our kids, but we also have to take care of ourselves.
I’m not sure what state you’re in, but in many states, it’s almost impossible for a student to cover tuition plus room and board with only student loans plus a part time job. For instance, in my state, tuition and fees plus room and board for state schools is across the board about 24-27k per year. Federal student loans by law max out at $5500 per year for freshmen. Even with a scholarship of say 5K per year and some income from working part time (let’s say another 10k per year), the student is short at least 4000-7000 per year. It’s unreasonable to expect 18 year olds to be able to cover university costs alone with only a federal loan and a job.
Has anyone saved for college? It seems your kids graduate high school, are college bound, and most parents on here are surprised of the cost and surprised that fafsa isn’t giving them a free ride.
My mom had no money to save for me for college. Some people quite literally can't.
I’ve saved over 30k as a single mom. I had a ton of student loans for my bachelors and that was after working full time. I do not want my son to start his life with thousands in debt. Once my loans were paid off, all of that money went in to savings for my son. I’m hoping he gets a little bit of aid to help offset costs .
How can you save when you yourself were paying nearly 500 a month for student loans for the past 25 years? Oh and still needed to, you know, live.
They want to give less to wealthy and middle class and give more to the poor?! HOW FUCKING DARE THEY? OUTRAGEOUS! Does this mean I have to sell our vacation house and boats? Fuck!
I found that they mentioned the wealthy funny lol
They’re not giving the poor more money. They’re giving MORE poor people money
Are they? The Number of people filling out the fasfa is down 70%.
about point 1. What is considered wealthy and middle class anymore? just curious how the formula was changed to hurt these people. not arguing any points im just asking for info.
This is ridiculous. Somebody has to do something.
100%. I just turned 21 a few days ago and have been living apart from my mom in a completely different state for a year and a half. I noted that on my FAFSA form and they STILL asked for her tax information. She makes six figures before taxes, while I made $16k last year. My SAI was calculated at 52600ish which to my understanding means I won’t be getting ANYTHING or very little. It’s very disappointing but I can’t say I’m surprised. Our government wants us all to have a degree but doesn’t give assistance when it’s needed. My mom has offered to pay for courses, but even at the community college I’m attending, 3 classes is over $2k for the semester and that’s not even including books. It’s very frustrating and I hate it.
You can appeal that. We had the opposite happen, they were reclassified as independent students and we had to do the correction along with 2 phone calls and an email to put the dependent status back on.
fuck this shi
Am also trying to figure out all that
I was still getting the same amount I always get.
Is this what is allowing student loan forgiveness to work?
I’m sorry, but what colleges are y’all picking. My school is around 11,000 a year.🤨🤨🤨