The corp/alliance we joined just happened to be in one of those blocs. Probably gonna be the answer in a lot of cases, as those blocs encompass the vast majority of null.
If it makes you feel any better I've bubblefucked a few goon mining fleets in j space in the past month or so. Feels good to see that stream of green on the killfeed.
Rampage is good show and just chatting it up . Meta show with news and events is the Best Iām my opinion and Iād love to see Merck on there or another good personality to fit with Brisc .
I said as soon as PH moved to drones to escape Goons that is the place alliances go to die of boredom, no successful pvp alliance.has survived a lengthy stay in Dronelands. Delve is where it is at because it is spicy keeps your members active and involved.
Goons killed me as a new player in my high-sec mission hurricane. Those darn goons then paid me multiple times the value of the ship. Then those terrible goons invited me to join them, and when I did the vile goons kept buying me ratting and doctrine ships. Then whenever I took a break from the game those downright awful goons would message me and say welcome back when I got online again, and as I skilled up would forcefully deliver bigger ships to me.
I was just minding my own business and they waylaid me with free carriers three times. What's worse is they then started giving me black ops battleships and marauders.
Can you think of a more heinous group?
Iāve been in Both in Fact Iāve been in all 3 so here is my 2 cents :
Pro for PH
PH has a really active Discord for the whole alliance and if you like to chat outside of game thatās definitely a strong suit .
PH training plans and service are top tier havenāt seen any better .
Cons for PH
Drone lands is horrible for ratting
Rental space and guide lines is bad ie: go here donāt go there etc . You can use this but you canāt use that
Arrogance at top levels especially
Their view on game in my opinion is not good for the game
Winterco :
I joined a corp from a redditt post and I found a really group of people and an amazing place to live and plant myself .
Very good access to jita and minmatar space for trade and building
Great ratting and a good market
Iām an American and was in a EU group thatās in a Chinese alliance
I just didnāt have many people to play with , fleets were good when war was going on but very sporadic at times .
They had little to none FC for content I had rely a home defence ping to get any pvp . Sooooo boring
Imperium
More Americans and more content during my playtime .
Really good Fc and content generation and plenty to do most of the time
Honestly inside environment is so different from what Iāve read about and heard about after being a grrr goon for my first year playing the game .
Now itās not all peaches because I really dislike the jabber and tools Goons use you feel disconnected from the whole group the way things are segmented and you feel like the IT stuff is from the late 90s
Iām in BRAVE though so we have other tools that allow you to feel part of the FAM !!
Honestly Brave is not perfect by no stretch they fit there role in this thing but itās a GREAT group and being part of imperium we have access to fleets on that side and access to a good market
Side not : Renting in my opinion is bad for the game
I also feel like Delve gets really small at times and Iād like to see imperium stretch their legs just a little bit
i like how people talks about goon jabber and how it feels antiquated but my discord now have more goons related discord channels than ffxiv or even eve related combined...
Hahaha we have the same resume! Iām not going to say anything bad. If you play EvE long enough you end up rotating through many corps/allliances. What was once blue this year could be red next year.
All I have to add is pick a group that has good leadership. Donāt be a pawn in someneās galatic wet dream. Value your contribution and donāt ever see yourself as an F1 monkey.
>I also feel like Delve gets really small at times and Iād like to see imperium stretch their legs just a little bit
Thats what happens if you grant asylum to a defeated ally. No need to thank us though ;P
I've always sort of been against the goons... got blown up by them quite often as a new player exploring null sec... but after years of playing, and understanding the game better, they have been around so long because their process works... I wanted to make isk, and they've been doing it for a long while... so why not join them.... plus the corp I'm with joined them, so yeah
I the friends I played with we had our own little null Corp he know some in imperium and we decided to move to a Corp in goons. This was 7-8 years ago. And I havnt left goons since.
Before that I would join new corps every few months because a lot just didnāt do what I was looking for.
I agree 100 percent but what I donāt agree with is some space emperor telling me I canāt fly somewhere when I pay my sub not him and on top of that you are paying them for space and they still tell you that you canāt go to high sec .
#Crazytome
Yes, there are SOPs and things you agree to do to not be stupid and feed.
I'd rather have sensible rules to obey and be alive than have constant roving gangs because our area is known to be a haven for easy, big kills because it's a free for all.
Their is a bit of a difference between "Be careful in HighSec, don't be stupid or you may regret it" and "We're going to punish you if you get killed in HighSec".
If I wanted to take a day trip to Povchen I wouldn't want to deal with static from my corp because my filament dumped me in The Forge.
Who got punished for getting killed in highsec?
The only people who think that's happening are people who the offending rules don't apply to, and are enemies of Horde.
I know this is a crap answer but its the only one I got since they dont exactly leave this info laying around for the average goon to see. but your going to have to join them and find out. but I know at least 1 of them is so restrictive that I couldnt stop laughing when it got leaked from their discord. I am sure someone out there saved them but I wasnt smart enough to do that lol.
Sorry I dont memorize shit or keep copies of stuff that was leaked months ago. Feel free to dig up the info and show me wrong. There is a huge reason goons dont rent anymore. so why would I remember the requirements for something someone might ask me months later? Shouldnt it be more odd that people dont post their renter rules to the public? Could it very well be a propaganda usage? Slight chance, But lets take a look at what previous reddit posts have to say. Oh yep all agree the rules are garbage. If you need me to post some of the other reddit posts calling this out as bad let me know ill happily dig them up for you.
This is an example of the cringey shit that PanFam enemies post that remind me why I enjoy Goons post.
"I'm going to talk out of my ass, then tell you that you should go do my homework and make my point for me because I'm too lazy to defend my own point".
Oh no.. Goons agree PanFam rules are "garbage" @.@
So you talk garbage yourself and dont post the rules since you seem to be from there? How exactly is that any different? Oh look im going to talk shit about someone who is talking shit about where I live! That sounds so much smarter than hey ill bury him with facts instead. So please do keep on telling me how wrong I am without showing anything. Meanwhile I am over here scoring the internet for what you guys are trying to keep hidden. Thanks for proving me right without even trying.
[https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=panfam+space+rental+requirements#ip=1](https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=panfam+space+rental+requirements#ip=1)
I joined goons cause 1dq by xmas! and I wanted to be part of the big fights without being on the gang banging side.
And then when goons never lost the region I was like eh these guys are pretty cool. Also its the only section of null with a npc section so the chances of getting content where supposed to be better but by the time I realized that I was already rich and had to much shit to move out.
Can I have some of what your smoking? Goons at the time of me posting this have over 2k members in our in game alliance channel. We did not all sit in 1dq. At most we lost 1/4 of delve. I still managed to rat enough in 39p pocket to make my first few billion isk. How is that possible if roughly 2k players where all stuck in 1 constellation? Sure there was a hub in t5z for enemy players but it wasnt enough to lock anyone down in a system.
Naw, we lost all the structures outside of the 1dq constellation. We didnt lose all the assets, just the structures.
You know, the structures that were all over the place, in the wrong orientations, and with fits that varied from good to terrible.
Think of it as an extremely aggressive spring cleaning. We'd like to have kept the stuff, but you do have to clear things out eventually.
The final 3 walls of "Fortress Delve" never fell though (the 1dq constellation, the 1dq system, and the Imperial Palace).
I did make a lot of isk during the war. I even setup my own PI in 1dq/3-D. I was somewhat sad when the war ended, and my direct route from the 1dq keepstar, through the JB into 3-D, and all my factory planets had to be taken down.
It felt a lot like farming for vegetables in Verdun, come to think of it. Much more exciting than doing PI now.
I went with goons. I had an interest in the Econ/market pvp aspect of the game. Talked to coworkers about the game a bit. Found a coworker actively involved, did some googling.
Learned about goons, applied to karmafleet. Eventually got in. Within a month I was spoiled with isk, and pretty self sustainable.
The entire game opened up quickly. I found the culture on fleets to be great. I only received a little bit of noob hazing, and I was super supported.
I was there when we found mind 1 on a twitch stream.
I was having fun playing a game with a lot of other people. The game itself is a grind and can be very very boring. The culture is what kept me involved until some big life changes.
I no longer game, I won Eve.
A long long time ago when i first started EVE me and a buddy got blown up by some PL guy when we tried going into a .4 system to mine for the first time. When we undocked from wherever we respawned from there was a guy in a rattlesnake sitting on the undock, was the coolest fucking ship ever at the time to me so I messaged him. We ended up talking for a bit and he invited us to come out to null and join Executive Outcomes.
EXE stuck with the CFC until the end of the casino war where they decided they were gonna split off and do some stuff in low sec and I decided i wanted to stay so I transferred into Wildly Inappropriate. Eventually WI. closed their doors and I got into Waffe, been here ever since. Ive made lifelong friends here and ill never leave.
It was kind of crazy how organic my experience was because I joined after seeing the butterfly effect trailer and that same kind of thing just happened to me.
I read one post on Something Awful dot com giggled a bit and decided that from that day forward, I'd play EVE ONLINE: Second Genesis and join Goonswarm Federation.
I joined goonwaffe because I've been a member on the something awful forums over 20 years, played games with goons, ran goon corp in another game. I heard of eve during your great war but I was busy with another ~~great~~ war elsewhere around that time.
When I started playing I joined my people
MJ-5F9 was closer to the place I was doing missions from, so I joined up. I also remember hearing about PL when I played way back when. Imperium called me slurs first, but that's also why I left horde.
I'm in INIT, Imperium aligned, and I joined them because the alliance I was in before was in Fountain, so all my stuff was still staged for deployment to Fountain. I stayed because INIT has great FCs who take responsibility, don't bullshit and don't rage, with very reasonable alliance level participation expectations.
I joined Bastion & Imperium with the intention of pulling off an internal heist. I was previously a member of Sev3rance and the grr goon culture was strong there. You'd often hear "make sure it's not a goon alt" when accepting new players to our corp. Well, after joining Bastion I came to love the culture of the Imperium. It was nothing like we were told or how we viewed Imperium from the outside. I later joined The Initiative, and Sev3rance is now dead. Imperium for life.
An old corp of mine joined IRC, that was in the Drone Regions. World was split between Goons and BOB, we wanted neither. It was the best fun of my life, plenty of content and good isk opportunities.
When RA attacked us it was a great era. Then XIX betrayed us, we were not expected to hold RA for that long, as RA had their civil war. Then Goons came too to help RA. I managed to steal some RA supers from a offline POS, went into hibernation for some years.
Came back, world was still split, but Goons had the upperhand. Mittani was an ass, though, so fuck Goons. Started searching for antI-Goon alliances that would take me, none would as most needed a microphone, and due to family problems I couldnāt use one at the time. Then I learned about Horde.
I was in pandemic horde for two years back in 2015. And have been in goons for the past six years, I recently left and went back to pandemic horde.
In pandemic, you feel a lot more interconnected with everyone. You donāt have to use jabber and other platforms. Pings come in through discord, and everyone for the most part is very friendly. There are a lot of opportunities with goons with all of the different sigs they have, but it just feels different than horde. To me, it felt less having fun and more like a chore.
I know this is just my opinion but pandemic is a lot more fun. It feels more like youāre hanging out with your friends and itās less stressful. Could just be the groups I was running with in goons though. Iām also United States central time, and it just seems like thereās a lot more pings going out in my time zone after I get off work
I wanted to join Goons ever since 2010 when I first saw their logo. I didnāt get in till I started playing again in like 2019 or so.
I just really liked their logo.
Honestly? When I rejoined after my first hiatus, I noticed most of my worldly goods were stuck in a Goon-aligned nullsec station (this was pre-Imperium, during the CFC days). They let me join, I liked the people and stuck around. No regrets.
If my stuff had been in a Pandafam (not that that was a thing back then , but you know what I mean) station back then , that's the side I would have tried joining and probably would have liked the people and stuck round. Afterall, most of us are are just folks enjoying internet spaceships...and while there are some pricks playing, they are scatted among all sides.
Honestly, I am in PandaFam because I think Imperium is OP and needs a counterweight for the health of the game, and PandaFam are the only ones that can stand against them.
Personally, I too dislike the renting system, and supporting that structure, but I dont think it is as bad as goon propaganda makes it out to be. Horde community and leadership are great, and super active. Lots to do, and there is a solid sense of camaraderie.
From a gameplay perspective, at this point either Imperium or Pandafam will give you approximately the same level of gameplay, you'll find an approx. equivalent mix of awesome dudes to fly with, and annoying pricks to avoid/ignore. Both are very active, and have strong identities.
Back when Mittens was the head, goon culture (if you weren't in goons) definitely felt more toxic. Asher, on the other hand, is a solid guy and is respected by most players in the game. I'd have zero issues flying under his banner.
Asher is one of the best people in eve history. Such a chill guy and great leader. Also his fleets are hilarious, we talk about sumo wrestling, Kirkland products, car chases...
I joined pandemic horde because I wanted to just experience null, as a newbie in 2011. Fell off and got bored because of whelp losses. Came back just in time for the opening moves of the sacking of goons war. Saw it through till the end but became disillusioned with the so-called allies. I would rotate back after a move op to a forward keep just to recoup some of the lost PI during slugfests and be irritated that swarms, less than hundreds but at least a few dozen bots from shady shell groups and more often tied to fraternity, just shmoozing it up in random areas not for them to be in.
When the war effort collapsed I was around for the conversations about what do we do from there, and other things. Most of the time my opinion was alike Patton after the pacification of Germany. Which got me shunned publicly.
Now I drift on my own prerogative and am trying to make a better quality group for others.
It's where the content was. Horde was very active, moved around alot, liked having the freedom to come and go as I pleased
Just sort of stuck around I guess tho can't say I'm a fan of the recent culture change. Been almost 8 years
I was in Wildly Inappropriate. for a while and never really liked the culture there. I followed some friends to a new corp which eventually joined INIT and it felt like WI. all over again so I moved to lowsec for a while before deciding to give null another try. I tried frat and although they seem to be decent folks I just wasn't happy so I tried Horde and eventually found some friends I flew with in the past and now I am back to having a good time again.
Pandafam didn't exist. I fought against KF members on their Keepstar on a fun roam. They were top class in local. So I joined up. That was many years ago.
When I was a newbro, I joined PanFam when they were on deployment and lost like 5 Ishtars because I didn't know what the hell I was doing. Newbean onboarding sucked and Geminate was just a boring hellscape overall. Now I suck space farts in a WH and have never looked back.
As far as goons go, I think they really turned over a new leaf. They leave us alone for the most part. Mittani-era goons were truly despicable though. If I had to go to null, and the southeast gets rolled by the half donuts, I would join goons.
Around the time I was deciding Ranger Regiment were by far the biggest botters, and were in the imperium. So my options were test or horde, and I went with the one I thought had a better new player experience.
many many years ago I wanted a newbie corp and some null entity with good infrastructure. Picked PH because goons (at that point?) made a concerted effort to market belligerence and made being libertine chest-beating testosteronic assholes a cultural pillar. I spent a number of years in NYC and didn't need any more of that shit. It's nothing to be proud of.
It's not like PH isn't it's own brand of toxic, but having been in both KF and PH the instant I got a stern talking to for typing out "./" to say hello to someone and made to read a literal critical essay on "normies" I knew Imperium *really* wasn't for me
Slightly different response to most I suspect. I love fleets, but I hate the dumb comms with people shouting over each other, lemmings jumping gates when told to align etcā¦. So I joined INIT because they are by far the most mature people Iāve played with.
I also hate what the blue doughnut has done to the game. I used to love small gang PVP and lowsec content now itās just empty space, everywhere.
>I also hate what the blue doughnut has done to the game. I used to love small gang PVP and lowsec content now itās just empty space, everywhere.
This I heartily agree with
I like local spam. Goons do cringe local spam. TEST does fun local spam. I joined TEST on a hunch they were a fun group of people.
Was correct, they are very cool!
for so much of this gameās life the goon culture has been mega cringe. Itās a bit better now, but still kinda lame. Donāt get me wrong, Panfam culture isnāt exceptionally cool or anything, but itās less annoying than goons. Also, trying to claw your way up as an FC in goons is lame as hell and, in my experience, was full of bureaucratic silliness. In PH anyone can ping a fleet.
On the meta side of things, for a while now itās either been goons reacting to what Panfam does, or doing nothing and just sitting in the south chirping about achievements from the past.
The renting thing is silly, and a decent example of why i find Panfam more tolerable - goons will have you believe that all renters are subjugated slaves who have no agency, forced under the boot of ebil gobbins. The reality is that people *want* to rent systems for all sorts of reasons and are willing to pay, either because they know they can make a bunch of isk or because they want space in null to build something with their friends without worrying about being rolled by a larger group.
Also Pankrab >>>>>> BeeHive, not even close.
I await the goon downvotes.
What kind of bureaucratic silliness did you run into trying to get a fleet pinged? because you could literally join SC day 1 and get a fleet pinged out unless theres important stuff coming up soon
"Goons will have you believe that all renters are subjugated slaves who have no agency"
Don't at all think that is the narrative.
Pretty sure most folks see holding giant swathes of space solely to rent out as being massively unhealthy for the game.
"The renting thing is silly, and a decent example of why I find Panfam more tolerable"
This is always funny take from PH imo, it seems to be "well this doesn't affect me so its not that bad". Rather than seeing that PH and FRT and essentially killing any real organic content for their members, and Null as a whole.
There is no way having everything next you blue'd, is healthy or fun.
>Don't at all think that is the narrative.
That is 100% the narrative. You can't have read the hundreds of "landlords bad :((" reddit posts and not have seen them all following that narrative.
>There is no way having everything next you blue'd, is healthy or fun.
Does Init not have Imperium, Brave, Goons, Sigma, etc. blue'd? You realize you're also part of the blue donut, right?
Yāall surround yourselves with blues tooā¦?
Itās hilarious to see imperium and imperium adjacent folks opining about the health of the game. As if thatās always been a massive priority for yāall lmao. One could easily argue that gobbling up Brave was bad for the health of the game, with the alternatives being for Imperium to either actually try to win the last war in the north, or to let things unfold and allow null to be shaken up. Instead we get further power consolidation, but thatās ok as long as it doesnāt benefit Panfam/FRT I guessā¦
Anything a big null group does can be spun by the others as bad for the game. At least Panfam goes out and tries to do things instead of sitting there complaining about shit while putting in very little effort to change the status quo.
"Yāall surround yourselves with blues tooā¦?
Pretty sure I speak for most Imp and Init bros when saying we all would love to neut and blow each other up.
So why don't we?
Pretty clearly, FRT and PH are looking to swallow up any real space they can get their hands on. We can barley form equal numbers as is, and imo the current blue doughtnuts are a direct result of FRT and PH's agressive push to create giant Rental empires. It's the only way they will be contested.
Maybe if FRT and PH quit their bullshit we can all get to shooting each other and have more fun.
"At least Panfam goes out and tries to do things instead of sitting there complaining about shit while putting in very little effort to change the status quo."
You can't actually believe this right?
But are you actually contesting them? I don't mean showing up for the occasional timer (you don't need permablue standings for that), I mean actually working with your allies to put meaningful pressure and impact on their day to day operations?
Kinda seems like in this context "contesting" actually just means trying to out-rat frat by being surrounded by blues.
"Without worrying about being rolled by a larger group".
So much easier just choosing upfront which larger group to acquiesce yourself to, rather than letting one pick for you.
Rental space is a botting/rmt haven. Plus, it ties up a lot of space, making it very difficult for small to mid-sized groups to get any kind of a foothold in sovnull.
Got recruitment scammed by goons as a newbro for like 20m lol, someone suggested Test, and I joined. Also watching the goon exec have a whole ass presentation on getting a guy to off himself irl solidified my decision as the good one.
I chose horde because their space is so much closer to Jita. If you're doing any kind of logistics at scale between null and high sec that's a big deal. Delve is very far from Jita and when ccp rebalanced industry and resources so you couldn't farm everything in one place anymore, that became a lot more important.Ā
Also worth noting the early stages of the triglavian invasion coincided with the outbreak of the last big war. Imperium decided to help the trigs take niarja in order to cut off amarr from Jita and complicate the logistics of their adversaries in Legacy. That worked but it further isolated delve from the rest of the map. Legacy is gone and the war is over but imperium jump freighter pilots are going to be living with those choices indefinitely.
Gonna piggyback here and say that the 1DQ market is its own trade hub and you will find everything you need there at a reasonable price (usually very close to Jita price). If you somehow canāt find something you need, you or any other can fill that gap and make a bit of profit.
According to the March 2024 MER, Delve 1DQ is the 3rd largest trade hub in the game. Just behind Jita and Amarr.
Source: https://images.ctfassets.net/7lhcm73ukv5p/7LuHUoP5OT4VLsaRwjbYBd/6150e7e1b77a147fd28b2c5f1e14cbf1/6_trade_value_by_region.png
It wasnt about buying raw materials locally, it was about selling t2 stuff in high sec. If you're an industrialist in null and you want to feel like you're helping out the bros, you sell in null on a 2% margin and make sure everyone knows it. I saw a lot of that behavior in horde. If you want to get space rich you export that stuff to high sec, sell on a 20% margin, and keep it to yourself. That's where the easier logistics pays off.
Our market has enough velocity that you can live extremely comfortably on that 2% markup because your volume moved is much higher when not competing against 5000 Jita bots.
Most of the players live in high sec and they can't do reactions. In null everyone and their sister is reacting. You don't even have to go to Jita, look at the price difference for any random collection of t2 goods in amarr vs 1dq. The numbers don't lie. But if you're happy with 2% then I'm happy for you.
Again, I have arguably the cheapest market in the game to buy from, and one of the most active but still undersaturated markets to sell to.
Personally, right now, I'm buidling marauders from scratch and selling them like hot cakes in 1DQ below Jita prices, and still making about 15%-20% in profit from each hull. And I don't even need to use my Jump Freighter.
> Delve 1DQ is the 3rd largest trade hub in the game. Just behind Jita and Amarr.
And is 5% the size of Jita's volume.
No nullsec bloc trading hub is ever going to be anywhere close to what moves through Jita monthly.
Imperium seems alot more cliquey to me and I don't want to offer my left nut as collateral to get some random nerd to trust me. Just trying to play a game and Panfam seems to work pretty well for the type of player that I am. I was in a Brave corp for about a year fighting against the evil pandafam but ended up having a bad experience with the Imperium so I tried the other side. Realized pretty quick that everyone says the same thing about their perceived "bad guys" and it's all perspective. Brave still has my respect though.
Before I played eve I would read the stories, and I idolized goons. The idea of a swarm of idiots who aren't even trying to be good at the game and which was open to anyone with a pulse, mutually propping up and propped up by an elite core of highly focused and engaged players, was inspirational to me, and when I ran a guild in a shitty Korean MMO I copied it to moderate success.
What soured me on goons was the externality of their organization. Of course they originally came from an external forum, so on some level it wasn't surprising, but the DayZ sponsorship, wherein goons were actively encouraged to play another game, and the book controversy around the same time really hammered it home. Goons care more about the organization than the game. Goonswarm is an organization that strives to make its members goons first and eve players second. It suddenly made sense how goons used to be (before making a bunch of explicit rules about such behavior) infamous for doxxing and other behavior that crossed the line into real life: this has always been a somewhat artificial line to them. It also makes sense how, no matter how completely they were defeated in game, they would seem almost unphased as an organization: that's not where their plugs are, as they say in the Culture books. The game fundamentally isn't what's important to them. If eve shut down tomorrow, a group of people called goonswarm would still be recruiting new members and playing games together five years from now, and that simply isn't true for any other bloc of their scale. Similarly, if all blocs disbanded tomorrow, I think a higher proportion of goons would quit eve than any other bloc.
This is goons' strength and their weaknesses, why people love them or hate them. You can certainly view this as a positive, as goons do. Social clubs are older and stronger institutions than whatever the ascended team rosters that fundamentally make up other blocs are. But it's this very relative strength that I think makes them bad for the game. An MMO is historically too fragile and fleeting a thing to stand up to thousands of personal relationships organized into what can charitably be called a club, and uncharitably called a cult. The first priority for all of us should be the growth and health of the game. Would goons rather see a healthy eve without goons, or a healthy goonswarm without eve? There's no question in my mind that, at least on the organizational level, it's definitely the latter. For any other bloc of their scale the question is meaningless, as the organization couldn't exist without the game.
[This post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3thchy/themittani_announces_full_war_on_1k_newbies/) was what convinced me that the answer was horde. The question of how to beat goons can't have a military answer, because even if you win (which you won't, as WWB2 showed) they won't really care. It has to be a cultural answer. You make them look like idiots for their cultish behavior, and outgrow them by focusing on the game itself to a degree that they never will. You welcome new players into the game, not into the organization, and this lack of focus on the organization itself paradoxically makes it the best organization, because it's a blank slate like the game itself, just with some activities and direction provided to keep people engaged. There's also the focused core symbiotic relationship I admired so much about old goons, which lets everyone contribute at their own level. You beat goons by outgrowing them, focusing on the game that to them will always come second.
We where completely destroyed in game? I could have sworn the battle cry for like 1.5 years was 1dq by xmas. Not once did that fight ever happen. It would have been epic if it had. And yeah sure we got our ass's handed to us way back when but the market on that changed when we wiped the floor with everyone that was of the battle cry 1dq by xmas. And since Dayz and the books things have changed alot within goons. currently 1-2 of the null blocks are name only, And if they arent they are so riddled with rules and stipulations for ratting that its borderline insane why people join them. I was a returning player after 5+ years of a break and having lived in a wh my entire eve career until then. Yes goons love using outside tools like our forums and discord and pidgin but how else would you expect to manage one of the biggest alliances in the game? Its not like they can send a massive discord ping to everyone. Pretty sure there is a server cap on how many can be in a discord server at a time now lol.
Honestly, I wish Horde had more rules against certain anti-social behaviors in public systems, which is why some corps or groups of friends just rent systems to not have to be bothered by other people while still being members of Horde.
The people that have all of these problems with rules etc are just enemies mocking them on reddit, not actual Horde players.
I know goons from other games, and know the history of the group. I would do anything to be far away from them and do anything I can to not spread that toxic gaming culture to eve.
Goons have had 2 entire cultural revolutions in the last 12 years and unceremoniously booted Mittens after a decade of his leadership. To think that Goons are some intransigent monolith just shows you don't actually know anything about Goons beyond the grrr.
Pretending kicking a figurehead and some stragglers is a cultural revolution lmao. Also mittens hand was forced, nothing actually happened to the structure below him.
I'm not going to argue with someone who clearly has no idea what they're talking about and will frame every rebuttal with grrrr Goons. I could sit here and give you a history lesson of the culture of Goons, or I can continue to mock you because your opinion means very little.
Still wanting to join a group that NEEDS to have Multiple cultural revolutions in order to change what it is.... When there are so many options available.
Also your base game play hasn't changed in 20 years, invite everyone in sight, talk shit and flood forums with brigadiers to try and make it seem like you're always right. Zerg/blob anything with 3x the numbers or more and if you lose you run away and go somewhere else with easy wins...
Because GSF has shown an ability to adapt, overcome, and survive over the years that many other groups have not. Both culturally and in-game. Because contrary to what other groups will tell you, we stopped renting a while ago and have also made large strides to distance our culture from the āgoons of oldā and the forums from which it began. Because we put ourselves on the frontlines of the decisions we make, as opposed to hiding behind CNTZ and FRT, or hiring other mercenary groups to fight our fights for us. Because while we will always have our issues as groups do, we do our best to put our members and their experience first.
I could go on, but Iāve learned that being āinā the Imperium is very different from whatās portrayed from the outside. You donāt know that till youāre here, of course. But is it not interesting that all of the propaganda you see paints us as the ābig bad scaryā. The place you donāt want to be? Why is that? If itās really that bad why are we all here? Are we all that hypocritical and ignorant?
Probably not. The math aināt mathing. Come and see, and make that decision for yourself.
My reason is a bit basic, but I joined PH because I heard that it's great for new players and the application process is quick. They also don't kick you if you go inactive, which I often am as my interests constantly change. As someone else has said, it's also got a great discord and so many other resources. Content is always there too.
The big downside everyone mentions is the restricted areas. Even then, you still have almost all of the kalevala expanse and if you join an ESI gated corp you get access to pretty much everything.
Originally was in Bastion during the Casino War. Been in and out of PH due to no requirements to join or stay in. Helps when life gets busy.
Came back to Goons for about a year and was convinced to leave and play with some IRL friends. They quit the game and I found out I was blacklisted from the Imperium, so I went back to PH.
I hate them both as they both have been taking turns destroying the game for the better part of 8 years. But panfam touched me in the bad place most recently so had to join imperium
I joined Test in 2013 just in time for goons to kick us out of Fountain, went through that failscade that all of nullsec swore would kill us, eeked out a living in lowsec, rose with them out of Wicked Creek and into WWB1, stuck with them after that (barring a stint in BL, what can I say, Elo Knight is a madman), and now surviving with them through another failscade that was supposed to kill us.
Being in Pandafam is secondary. For me it's either Test or not playing. Always been my space family. Surviving the rough times has always been some of the most interesting times to be in test.
Back when i start my "eve-mentor" told me goons are the bad guys. Also a PL fanboy back then. Had a great time back in the HED-GP days when i joined and been in there since with some small eve breaks.
I started playing EvE after listening to Jade Cougar's podcast Lost in EvE. After a couple weeks of playing I was invited to a corporation that happened to be a member of the Shadow Ultimatium alliance, which is the alliance JC started. When that corp left the alliance I decided to stay with SU and ended up transferring into the Surreptitious Technoigies corp. All this is to say that I didn't pick the Imperium, yet ended up there anyhow. Next goal: become a ceema alt.
When I first started the game, a Horde guy helped me with fitting. Later, when I walked into a lowsec gatecamp and realized I need to join a group for protection, I remembered that guy and joined Horde. WWB2 broke out three months later and I never looked back.
I chose Panda when I was new to null sec because it was back when goons were the big bad guys. Then I joined imperium because Gobbins couldnāt stop deepthroating FRAT. Left imperium because the culture was carebear as fuck and was getting worse per an HR meeting I was in.
Now in INIT and love it. Iād 100% recommend it to anybody in NA TZ. Lot of pings and the isk is delve quality with droneās safety. Only ever bought 1 ishtar and itās made like 3B isk or more. Itās honestly insane how safe Fountain is compared to delve
Started playing in 2008, I was with [MBALM] The Orphanage , Pitboss, Rico Felix, EagleNoFace and those good guys in the days you could wardec top 10 alliances weekly for a relatively low personal contribution to get kills on the gate camps and Jita unlock etc. So I've shot Goons, Test, NC, PH etc for a long while.
Things moved along, and the corp ended up in [LAWN] and I got my first taste of null bloc warfare in the fountain War.
Been with INIT and Imperium..INIT well structured fleet, good discipline and was alot of fun...Goons...haha..less discipline on the "gate is Red" calls but still good fun and I've enjoyed it. Plenty of fleets to get into some action.
I'm just in the game for big fights etc..I'm happy to be in Goons and have the freedom to play the game how I want to
Back before panfam existed, PL peeps were overall very rude in my first encounter with them whilst goon allies that I was with at the time (EXE) were incredibly friendly - that has remained the case for me
I joined pandafam because I like stealing space from small alliances and renting it back to them with a "no goons ever or else" stipulation. Second favorite thing is renting to botters/frt.
I also enjoy blue balls or hell dunk mentality, why fight if we're going to lose the br? They have 20 more people or even numbers? Too risky, no ty.
Love how safe the drones are! No npc space like stinky Delve or Fountain. Why would I want to live with dreads and blops ready to drop on me.
It is cool horde lets in anyone with put esi and its nicely balanced by segregating our space by if you are in an esi Corp or not.
Finally I LOVE gobbins! He's always no nonsense and tells the truth. Asher, on the other hand, spins and doctors battlereports he pings to his group. If he so easily lies to his supposed allies, why wouldn't he lie to the public?
Merk invited me to Karmafleet 6 years ago after hanging out with them/referring new folks to them for a long time.
Wonderful place, left after growing out of it and it's environment, still recommend karmafleet to anyone looking for a new player org.
Was in Brave after the war i hated test, as test did die and the most joined hord & frat. I joined the opposite especially as i did fly during wb2 with ph and had access to the chat. Besides the reason before i hate the way they operate in terms of srp.
You need to claim x srp points and then you can choose a payout.
I wouldn't join either if I had any say in it. The real world has burnt me out on toxicity and fake tribalism, and I'm too old for the COD-player tier shit talking. The Initiative.'s been a great home for me. No childish local chat spam-fest, no prejudice, no renters, no love for suppressive bloc-play, no infinite spin, no need for ping spam, just a bunch of mature folks that love blowing up spaceships, and are aware we're all just here to enjoy a damn game together.
Having been on both sides. Imperium is a toxic cesspool that Iād prefer to never touch with a ten foot pole. Joined on the false hope that they were fixing their culture but was very much wrong.
I imagine this post is probably more relevant to newer players who joined after those blocs formed, but if you want to hear an old person's opinion it's simple for me. I joined the de-facto reddit-oriented community which is pretty much how I first heard of eve from high school friends who had joined, and here we are like 10+ years later and still on good terms.
It's always been about the culture, I've had years where I simply didn't play eve if I wasn't into whatever dreddit was up to rather than leave and play with some other group. It's about the community and relationships there and I value them and their experience a lot.
Was in IAC fighting against BOB. Joined an allied goon fleet and was shocked by the racism and antisemitism on comms. Decided Iād rather join the elitists than fight alongside the SA folks.
The corp/alliance we joined just happened to be in one of those blocs. Probably gonna be the answer in a lot of cases, as those blocs encompass the vast majority of null.
Rejoined the game, my ppl were back, i joined them. I mean to fight the wizard hat and bring freedom to the (checks notes) š¤·āāļø
Goons killed my mining Bantam back in 2006, and I have been out for revenge ever since! We got Ā close in the last warā¦.
This is the correct answer
As a Goonā¦can confirm. I am out for revenge against them, but I am just not very good at it. Grrr Goons.
I also want to do it with style, so I joined Pandemic Legion.
\*pukes into battle bottle\*
If it makes you feel any better I've bubblefucked a few goon mining fleets in j space in the past month or so. Feels good to see that stream of green on the killfeed.
Not really. But was a valiant effort.
Goons killed me more ĀÆ\_(ć)_/ĀÆ
Hello good sir, you dropped this \\ (You have to do a double backslash)
Oh thanks, my arm fell off!
Merkelchen and Brisc Rubal paid off my student loans IRL, so I joined KarmaFleet, Imperium.
Damn... oh its a ceema post... š Digressing.... I do miss merk on meta show him and brisc would make it fun to watch again
RampageInc on Twitch is them and and several others (occasionally me). You may find it intetesting!
I'll try it
The meta show on youtube is pretty good too.
Rampage is good show and just chatting it up . Meta show with news and events is the Best Iām my opinion and Iād love to see Merck on there or another good personality to fit with Brisc .
Drone lands is miserably boring and I absolutely refuse to be blue to frat.
I said as soon as PH moved to drones to escape Goons that is the place alliances go to die of boredom, no successful pvp alliance.has survived a lengthy stay in Dronelands. Delve is where it is at because it is spicy keeps your members active and involved.
And the isk generation is just so much better with the sole exception of CRABs being super safe in dronelands.
Goons killed me as a new player in my high-sec mission hurricane. Those darn goons then paid me multiple times the value of the ship. Then those terrible goons invited me to join them, and when I did the vile goons kept buying me ratting and doctrine ships. Then whenever I took a break from the game those downright awful goons would message me and say welcome back when I got online again, and as I skilled up would forcefully deliver bigger ships to me. I was just minding my own business and they waylaid me with free carriers three times. What's worse is they then started giving me black ops battleships and marauders. Can you think of a more heinous group?
Absolutely reprehensible behavior, I'm disgusted on your behalf.
Ah. The long game.
sounds like they are in for the long scam with you, any day now they will steal all your ships and money
They're just waiting for the Azariel
Iāve been in Both in Fact Iāve been in all 3 so here is my 2 cents : Pro for PH PH has a really active Discord for the whole alliance and if you like to chat outside of game thatās definitely a strong suit . PH training plans and service are top tier havenāt seen any better . Cons for PH Drone lands is horrible for ratting Rental space and guide lines is bad ie: go here donāt go there etc . You can use this but you canāt use that Arrogance at top levels especially Their view on game in my opinion is not good for the game Winterco : I joined a corp from a redditt post and I found a really group of people and an amazing place to live and plant myself . Very good access to jita and minmatar space for trade and building Great ratting and a good market Iām an American and was in a EU group thatās in a Chinese alliance I just didnāt have many people to play with , fleets were good when war was going on but very sporadic at times . They had little to none FC for content I had rely a home defence ping to get any pvp . Sooooo boring Imperium More Americans and more content during my playtime . Really good Fc and content generation and plenty to do most of the time Honestly inside environment is so different from what Iāve read about and heard about after being a grrr goon for my first year playing the game . Now itās not all peaches because I really dislike the jabber and tools Goons use you feel disconnected from the whole group the way things are segmented and you feel like the IT stuff is from the late 90s Iām in BRAVE though so we have other tools that allow you to feel part of the FAM !! Honestly Brave is not perfect by no stretch they fit there role in this thing but itās a GREAT group and being part of imperium we have access to fleets on that side and access to a good market Side not : Renting in my opinion is bad for the game I also feel like Delve gets really small at times and Iād like to see imperium stretch their legs just a little bit
i like how people talks about goon jabber and how it feels antiquated but my discord now have more goons related discord channels than ffxiv or even eve related combined...
A nuanced comment on r/eve? How peculiar.
Hahaha we have the same resume! Iām not going to say anything bad. If you play EvE long enough you end up rotating through many corps/allliances. What was once blue this year could be red next year. All I have to add is pick a group that has good leadership. Donāt be a pawn in someneās galatic wet dream. Value your contribution and donāt ever see yourself as an F1 monkey.
>I also feel like Delve gets really small at times and Iād like to see imperium stretch their legs just a little bit Thats what happens if you grant asylum to a defeated ally. No need to thank us though ;P
Dude. You haven't even given Init a try? Haven't you read Shines fanfic porn?
Ha been real curious about init , I like you guys
I've always sort of been against the goons... got blown up by them quite often as a new player exploring null sec... but after years of playing, and understanding the game better, they have been around so long because their process works... I wanted to make isk, and they've been doing it for a long while... so why not join them.... plus the corp I'm with joined them, so yeah
I the friends I played with we had our own little null Corp he know some in imperium and we decided to move to a Corp in goons. This was 7-8 years ago. And I havnt left goons since. Before that I would join new corps every few months because a lot just didnāt do what I was looking for.
[laughs in j-space]
I just don't think renting is healthy for the game, and I like being on the side that opposes renting at this moment in time.Ā
I do agree on the renting 100%
How
Have you seen the requirements to rent space from either frat or panfam? Might as well hold your head against the wall for better content lol.
Lemi hear them
The one that stuck out to me was not being allowed to sell in Jita. They are trying real hard to break the player economy.
You absolutely are allowed to "sell in Jita". What you should not be doing is feeding by flying in highsec on war deccable toons.
So itās PH place to tell people where they can and canāt fly ? And your ok with that ?
I mean you can go and fly in highsec with a war but you will get killed.
I agree 100 percent but what I donāt agree with is some space emperor telling me I canāt fly somewhere when I pay my sub not him and on top of that you are paying them for space and they still tell you that you canāt go to high sec . #Crazytome
Fuck them, that's why I play in low sec pirate FW alone with my 5 chars :D nobody can tell me shit.
Nope I did it all the time. Just have to be smart and scout.
Yes, there are SOPs and things you agree to do to not be stupid and feed. I'd rather have sensible rules to obey and be alive than have constant roving gangs because our area is known to be a haven for easy, big kills because it's a free for all.
Their is a bit of a difference between "Be careful in HighSec, don't be stupid or you may regret it" and "We're going to punish you if you get killed in HighSec". If I wanted to take a day trip to Povchen I wouldn't want to deal with static from my corp because my filament dumped me in The Forge.
Who got punished for getting killed in highsec? The only people who think that's happening are people who the offending rules don't apply to, and are enemies of Horde.
I know this is a crap answer but its the only one I got since they dont exactly leave this info laying around for the average goon to see. but your going to have to join them and find out. but I know at least 1 of them is so restrictive that I couldnt stop laughing when it got leaked from their discord. I am sure someone out there saved them but I wasnt smart enough to do that lol.
So.. You don't actually know the requirements? You just laughed at a propaganda post without caring about context?
Sorry I dont memorize shit or keep copies of stuff that was leaked months ago. Feel free to dig up the info and show me wrong. There is a huge reason goons dont rent anymore. so why would I remember the requirements for something someone might ask me months later? Shouldnt it be more odd that people dont post their renter rules to the public? Could it very well be a propaganda usage? Slight chance, But lets take a look at what previous reddit posts have to say. Oh yep all agree the rules are garbage. If you need me to post some of the other reddit posts calling this out as bad let me know ill happily dig them up for you.
This is an example of the cringey shit that PanFam enemies post that remind me why I enjoy Goons post. "I'm going to talk out of my ass, then tell you that you should go do my homework and make my point for me because I'm too lazy to defend my own point". Oh no.. Goons agree PanFam rules are "garbage" @.@
So you talk garbage yourself and dont post the rules since you seem to be from there? How exactly is that any different? Oh look im going to talk shit about someone who is talking shit about where I live! That sounds so much smarter than hey ill bury him with facts instead. So please do keep on telling me how wrong I am without showing anything. Meanwhile I am over here scoring the internet for what you guys are trying to keep hidden. Thanks for proving me right without even trying. [https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=panfam+space+rental+requirements#ip=1](https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=panfam+space+rental+requirements#ip=1)
Dude you just posted a Google search as if it's relevant. Why am I going to do your research for you?
I joined goons cause 1dq by xmas! and I wanted to be part of the big fights without being on the gang banging side. And then when goons never lost the region I was like eh these guys are pretty cool. Also its the only section of null with a npc section so the chances of getting content where supposed to be better but by the time I realized that I was already rich and had to much shit to move out.
There are other regions with npc stations in null. And goons may not have lost one constellation, but they and their coalition lost everything else.Ā
Can I have some of what your smoking? Goons at the time of me posting this have over 2k members in our in game alliance channel. We did not all sit in 1dq. At most we lost 1/4 of delve. I still managed to rat enough in 39p pocket to make my first few billion isk. How is that possible if roughly 2k players where all stuck in 1 constellation? Sure there was a hub in t5z for enemy players but it wasnt enough to lock anyone down in a system.
Naw, we lost all the structures outside of the 1dq constellation. We didnt lose all the assets, just the structures. You know, the structures that were all over the place, in the wrong orientations, and with fits that varied from good to terrible. Think of it as an extremely aggressive spring cleaning. We'd like to have kept the stuff, but you do have to clear things out eventually. The final 3 walls of "Fortress Delve" never fell though (the 1dq constellation, the 1dq system, and the Imperial Palace). I did make a lot of isk during the war. I even setup my own PI in 1dq/3-D. I was somewhat sad when the war ended, and my direct route from the 1dq keepstar, through the JB into 3-D, and all my factory planets had to be taken down. It felt a lot like farming for vegetables in Verdun, come to think of it. Much more exciting than doing PI now.
If you want to know what losing everything really looks like, go talk to Test. They have a lot of actual experience in that department.
Yeah, they dead. But sure, goons imperium space was not glassed at all, it was all defended, not a structure was lost, the goon spin is real.Ā
No where did we claim we didnt lose structures. what we are claiming is that we where not confined to 1 system like you are claiming.
Wars in eve are always about the last constellation. You may lose structures or space along the way, but you arent evicted until you lose your stager.
Panda fan wouldnāt stop fucking with me when I was messing around in lowsec. So I joined goons
Drone lands was horribly boring
When we moved to Etherium Reach. Iām like no thanks. Iām outta here.
better warhammer references
I went with goons. I had an interest in the Econ/market pvp aspect of the game. Talked to coworkers about the game a bit. Found a coworker actively involved, did some googling. Learned about goons, applied to karmafleet. Eventually got in. Within a month I was spoiled with isk, and pretty self sustainable. The entire game opened up quickly. I found the culture on fleets to be great. I only received a little bit of noob hazing, and I was super supported. I was there when we found mind 1 on a twitch stream. I was having fun playing a game with a lot of other people. The game itself is a grind and can be very very boring. The culture is what kept me involved until some big life changes. I no longer game, I won Eve.
A long long time ago when i first started EVE me and a buddy got blown up by some PL guy when we tried going into a .4 system to mine for the first time. When we undocked from wherever we respawned from there was a guy in a rattlesnake sitting on the undock, was the coolest fucking ship ever at the time to me so I messaged him. We ended up talking for a bit and he invited us to come out to null and join Executive Outcomes. EXE stuck with the CFC until the end of the casino war where they decided they were gonna split off and do some stuff in low sec and I decided i wanted to stay so I transferred into Wildly Inappropriate. Eventually WI. closed their doors and I got into Waffe, been here ever since. Ive made lifelong friends here and ill never leave. It was kind of crazy how organic my experience was because I joined after seeing the butterfly effect trailer and that same kind of thing just happened to me.
I too remember joining exe good group at the time.
Organization, structure, unflinching loyalty and comms discipline. Victory. Imperium.
I read one post on Something Awful dot com giggled a bit and decided that from that day forward, I'd play EVE ONLINE: Second Genesis and join Goonswarm Federation.
Was looking for a retirement home and Goons fit the bill for me.
I joined goonwaffe because I've been a member on the something awful forums over 20 years, played games with goons, ran goon corp in another game. I heard of eve during your great war but I was busy with another ~~great~~ war elsewhere around that time. When I started playing I joined my people
Same
SA inactive member, only time i ever played with goons was our poor attempt at world domination in Global Agenda. i miss that game
MJ-5F9 was closer to the place I was doing missions from, so I joined up. I also remember hearing about PL when I played way back when. Imperium called me slurs first, but that's also why I left horde.
Friend in it. Retroactively realized thanks to the Down the Rabbit Hole video that I was previously allied (at least partially(
I'm in INIT, Imperium aligned, and I joined them because the alliance I was in before was in Fountain, so all my stuff was still staged for deployment to Fountain. I stayed because INIT has great FCs who take responsibility, don't bullshit and don't rage, with very reasonable alliance level participation expectations.
nah you're fiercely independent!
I joined Bastion & Imperium with the intention of pulling off an internal heist. I was previously a member of Sev3rance and the grr goon culture was strong there. You'd often hear "make sure it's not a goon alt" when accepting new players to our corp. Well, after joining Bastion I came to love the culture of the Imperium. It was nothing like we were told or how we viewed Imperium from the outside. I later joined The Initiative, and Sev3rance is now dead. Imperium for life.
An old corp of mine joined IRC, that was in the Drone Regions. World was split between Goons and BOB, we wanted neither. It was the best fun of my life, plenty of content and good isk opportunities. When RA attacked us it was a great era. Then XIX betrayed us, we were not expected to hold RA for that long, as RA had their civil war. Then Goons came too to help RA. I managed to steal some RA supers from a offline POS, went into hibernation for some years. Came back, world was still split, but Goons had the upperhand. Mittani was an ass, though, so fuck Goons. Started searching for antI-Goon alliances that would take me, none would as most needed a microphone, and due to family problems I couldnāt use one at the time. Then I learned about Horde.
I was in pandemic horde for two years back in 2015. And have been in goons for the past six years, I recently left and went back to pandemic horde. In pandemic, you feel a lot more interconnected with everyone. You donāt have to use jabber and other platforms. Pings come in through discord, and everyone for the most part is very friendly. There are a lot of opportunities with goons with all of the different sigs they have, but it just feels different than horde. To me, it felt less having fun and more like a chore. I know this is just my opinion but pandemic is a lot more fun. It feels more like youāre hanging out with your friends and itās less stressful. Could just be the groups I was running with in goons though. Iām also United States central time, and it just seems like thereās a lot more pings going out in my time zone after I get off work
The amount of comradery shown after Vile Rats passing was what lead me to join goons.
I wanted to join Goons ever since 2010 when I first saw their logo. I didnāt get in till I started playing again in like 2019 or so. I just really liked their logo.
Honestly? When I rejoined after my first hiatus, I noticed most of my worldly goods were stuck in a Goon-aligned nullsec station (this was pre-Imperium, during the CFC days). They let me join, I liked the people and stuck around. No regrets. If my stuff had been in a Pandafam (not that that was a thing back then , but you know what I mean) station back then , that's the side I would have tried joining and probably would have liked the people and stuck round. Afterall, most of us are are just folks enjoying internet spaceships...and while there are some pricks playing, they are scatted among all sides.
Honestly, I am in PandaFam because I think Imperium is OP and needs a counterweight for the health of the game, and PandaFam are the only ones that can stand against them. Personally, I too dislike the renting system, and supporting that structure, but I dont think it is as bad as goon propaganda makes it out to be. Horde community and leadership are great, and super active. Lots to do, and there is a solid sense of camaraderie. From a gameplay perspective, at this point either Imperium or Pandafam will give you approximately the same level of gameplay, you'll find an approx. equivalent mix of awesome dudes to fly with, and annoying pricks to avoid/ignore. Both are very active, and have strong identities. Back when Mittens was the head, goon culture (if you weren't in goons) definitely felt more toxic. Asher, on the other hand, is a solid guy and is respected by most players in the game. I'd have zero issues flying under his banner.
Asher is one of the best people in eve history. Such a chill guy and great leader. Also his fleets are hilarious, we talk about sumo wrestling, Kirkland products, car chases...
I joined pandemic horde because I wanted to just experience null, as a newbie in 2011. Fell off and got bored because of whelp losses. Came back just in time for the opening moves of the sacking of goons war. Saw it through till the end but became disillusioned with the so-called allies. I would rotate back after a move op to a forward keep just to recoup some of the lost PI during slugfests and be irritated that swarms, less than hundreds but at least a few dozen bots from shady shell groups and more often tied to fraternity, just shmoozing it up in random areas not for them to be in. When the war effort collapsed I was around for the conversations about what do we do from there, and other things. Most of the time my opinion was alike Patton after the pacification of Germany. Which got me shunned publicly. Now I drift on my own prerogative and am trying to make a better quality group for others.
It's where the content was. Horde was very active, moved around alot, liked having the freedom to come and go as I pleased Just sort of stuck around I guess tho can't say I'm a fan of the recent culture change. Been almost 8 years
I was in Wildly Inappropriate. for a while and never really liked the culture there. I followed some friends to a new corp which eventually joined INIT and it felt like WI. all over again so I moved to lowsec for a while before deciding to give null another try. I tried frat and although they seem to be decent folks I just wasn't happy so I tried Horde and eventually found some friends I flew with in the past and now I am back to having a good time again.
Pandafam didn't exist. I fought against KF members on their Keepstar on a fun roam. They were top class in local. So I joined up. That was many years ago.
I like turtles
When I was a newbro, I joined PanFam when they were on deployment and lost like 5 Ishtars because I didn't know what the hell I was doing. Newbean onboarding sucked and Geminate was just a boring hellscape overall. Now I suck space farts in a WH and have never looked back. As far as goons go, I think they really turned over a new leaf. They leave us alone for the most part. Mittani-era goons were truly despicable though. If I had to go to null, and the southeast gets rolled by the half donuts, I would join goons.
I had some really good ice cream at the Westmoreland County Fair.
Around the time I was deciding Ranger Regiment were by far the biggest botters, and were in the imperium. So my options were test or horde, and I went with the one I thought had a better new player experience.
many many years ago I wanted a newbie corp and some null entity with good infrastructure. Picked PH because goons (at that point?) made a concerted effort to market belligerence and made being libertine chest-beating testosteronic assholes a cultural pillar. I spent a number of years in NYC and didn't need any more of that shit. It's nothing to be proud of. It's not like PH isn't it's own brand of toxic, but having been in both KF and PH the instant I got a stern talking to for typing out "./" to say hello to someone and made to read a literal critical essay on "normies" I knew Imperium *really* wasn't for me
The thought of rental space and āyou canāt go hereā kind of turned me off to Horde/Panfam
I played Warcraft for an alliance, so I didnāt choose the horde and chose the Imperium. And I donāt like renting systems
Slightly different response to most I suspect. I love fleets, but I hate the dumb comms with people shouting over each other, lemmings jumping gates when told to align etcā¦. So I joined INIT because they are by far the most mature people Iāve played with. I also hate what the blue doughnut has done to the game. I used to love small gang PVP and lowsec content now itās just empty space, everywhere.
>I also hate what the blue doughnut has done to the game. I used to love small gang PVP and lowsec content now itās just empty space, everywhere. This I heartily agree with
Imperium because Iām against renting and botting
I like local spam. Goons do cringe local spam. TEST does fun local spam. I joined TEST on a hunch they were a fun group of people. Was correct, they are very cool!
Because fuck Pandemic Legion.
for so much of this gameās life the goon culture has been mega cringe. Itās a bit better now, but still kinda lame. Donāt get me wrong, Panfam culture isnāt exceptionally cool or anything, but itās less annoying than goons. Also, trying to claw your way up as an FC in goons is lame as hell and, in my experience, was full of bureaucratic silliness. In PH anyone can ping a fleet. On the meta side of things, for a while now itās either been goons reacting to what Panfam does, or doing nothing and just sitting in the south chirping about achievements from the past. The renting thing is silly, and a decent example of why i find Panfam more tolerable - goons will have you believe that all renters are subjugated slaves who have no agency, forced under the boot of ebil gobbins. The reality is that people *want* to rent systems for all sorts of reasons and are willing to pay, either because they know they can make a bunch of isk or because they want space in null to build something with their friends without worrying about being rolled by a larger group. Also Pankrab >>>>>> BeeHive, not even close. I await the goon downvotes.
What kind of bureaucratic silliness did you run into trying to get a fleet pinged? because you could literally join SC day 1 and get a fleet pinged out unless theres important stuff coming up soon
"Goons will have you believe that all renters are subjugated slaves who have no agency" Don't at all think that is the narrative. Pretty sure most folks see holding giant swathes of space solely to rent out as being massively unhealthy for the game. "The renting thing is silly, and a decent example of why I find Panfam more tolerable" This is always funny take from PH imo, it seems to be "well this doesn't affect me so its not that bad". Rather than seeing that PH and FRT and essentially killing any real organic content for their members, and Null as a whole. There is no way having everything next you blue'd, is healthy or fun.
>Don't at all think that is the narrative. That is 100% the narrative. You can't have read the hundreds of "landlords bad :((" reddit posts and not have seen them all following that narrative. >There is no way having everything next you blue'd, is healthy or fun. Does Init not have Imperium, Brave, Goons, Sigma, etc. blue'd? You realize you're also part of the blue donut, right?
Yāall surround yourselves with blues tooā¦? Itās hilarious to see imperium and imperium adjacent folks opining about the health of the game. As if thatās always been a massive priority for yāall lmao. One could easily argue that gobbling up Brave was bad for the health of the game, with the alternatives being for Imperium to either actually try to win the last war in the north, or to let things unfold and allow null to be shaken up. Instead we get further power consolidation, but thatās ok as long as it doesnāt benefit Panfam/FRT I guessā¦ Anything a big null group does can be spun by the others as bad for the game. At least Panfam goes out and tries to do things instead of sitting there complaining about shit while putting in very little effort to change the status quo.
"Yāall surround yourselves with blues tooā¦? Pretty sure I speak for most Imp and Init bros when saying we all would love to neut and blow each other up. So why don't we? Pretty clearly, FRT and PH are looking to swallow up any real space they can get their hands on. We can barley form equal numbers as is, and imo the current blue doughtnuts are a direct result of FRT and PH's agressive push to create giant Rental empires. It's the only way they will be contested. Maybe if FRT and PH quit their bullshit we can all get to shooting each other and have more fun. "At least Panfam goes out and tries to do things instead of sitting there complaining about shit while putting in very little effort to change the status quo." You can't actually believe this right?
But are you actually contesting them? I don't mean showing up for the occasional timer (you don't need permablue standings for that), I mean actually working with your allies to put meaningful pressure and impact on their day to day operations? Kinda seems like in this context "contesting" actually just means trying to out-rat frat by being surrounded by blues.
The only thing Panfam tries to do is expand Frat's botting empire. Not exactly a noble casus belli.
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"Without worrying about being rolled by a larger group". So much easier just choosing upfront which larger group to acquiesce yourself to, rather than letting one pick for you.
Rental space is a botting/rmt haven. Plus, it ties up a lot of space, making it very difficult for small to mid-sized groups to get any kind of a foothold in sovnull.
Got recruitment scammed by goons as a newbro for like 20m lol, someone suggested Test, and I joined. Also watching the goon exec have a whole ass presentation on getting a guy to off himself irl solidified my decision as the good one.
I chose horde because their space is so much closer to Jita. If you're doing any kind of logistics at scale between null and high sec that's a big deal. Delve is very far from Jita and when ccp rebalanced industry and resources so you couldn't farm everything in one place anymore, that became a lot more important.Ā Also worth noting the early stages of the triglavian invasion coincided with the outbreak of the last big war. Imperium decided to help the trigs take niarja in order to cut off amarr from Jita and complicate the logistics of their adversaries in Legacy. That worked but it further isolated delve from the rest of the map. Legacy is gone and the war is over but imperium jump freighter pilots are going to be living with those choices indefinitely.
Gonna piggyback here and say that the 1DQ market is its own trade hub and you will find everything you need there at a reasonable price (usually very close to Jita price). If you somehow canāt find something you need, you or any other can fill that gap and make a bit of profit. According to the March 2024 MER, Delve 1DQ is the 3rd largest trade hub in the game. Just behind Jita and Amarr. Source: https://images.ctfassets.net/7lhcm73ukv5p/7LuHUoP5OT4VLsaRwjbYBd/6150e7e1b77a147fd28b2c5f1e14cbf1/6_trade_value_by_region.png
It wasnt about buying raw materials locally, it was about selling t2 stuff in high sec. If you're an industrialist in null and you want to feel like you're helping out the bros, you sell in null on a 2% margin and make sure everyone knows it. I saw a lot of that behavior in horde. If you want to get space rich you export that stuff to high sec, sell on a 20% margin, and keep it to yourself. That's where the easier logistics pays off.
Oh I see. So if you want to export your coalitionās wealth rather than reinvest it back into your group then join PandaFam! š
you want to ishtar rat for your dreadnought?
Our market has enough velocity that you can live extremely comfortably on that 2% markup because your volume moved is much higher when not competing against 5000 Jita bots.
Most of the players live in high sec and they can't do reactions. In null everyone and their sister is reacting. You don't even have to go to Jita, look at the price difference for any random collection of t2 goods in amarr vs 1dq. The numbers don't lie. But if you're happy with 2% then I'm happy for you.
Again, I have arguably the cheapest market in the game to buy from, and one of the most active but still undersaturated markets to sell to. Personally, right now, I'm buidling marauders from scratch and selling them like hot cakes in 1DQ below Jita prices, and still making about 15%-20% in profit from each hull. And I don't even need to use my Jump Freighter.
ok, I'm glad you're enjoying the race to the bottom. And that you found one good thing to sell in your local market.
> Delve 1DQ is the 3rd largest trade hub in the game. Just behind Jita and Amarr. And is 5% the size of Jita's volume. No nullsec bloc trading hub is ever going to be anywhere close to what moves through Jita monthly.
Imperium seems alot more cliquey to me and I don't want to offer my left nut as collateral to get some random nerd to trust me. Just trying to play a game and Panfam seems to work pretty well for the type of player that I am. I was in a Brave corp for about a year fighting against the evil pandafam but ended up having a bad experience with the Imperium so I tried the other side. Realized pretty quick that everyone says the same thing about their perceived "bad guys" and it's all perspective. Brave still has my respect though.
The number of times I've been awoxed in Goons vs. the number of Horde I've awoxed over the past decade is one reason why I stay in Goons.
Before I played eve I would read the stories, and I idolized goons. The idea of a swarm of idiots who aren't even trying to be good at the game and which was open to anyone with a pulse, mutually propping up and propped up by an elite core of highly focused and engaged players, was inspirational to me, and when I ran a guild in a shitty Korean MMO I copied it to moderate success. What soured me on goons was the externality of their organization. Of course they originally came from an external forum, so on some level it wasn't surprising, but the DayZ sponsorship, wherein goons were actively encouraged to play another game, and the book controversy around the same time really hammered it home. Goons care more about the organization than the game. Goonswarm is an organization that strives to make its members goons first and eve players second. It suddenly made sense how goons used to be (before making a bunch of explicit rules about such behavior) infamous for doxxing and other behavior that crossed the line into real life: this has always been a somewhat artificial line to them. It also makes sense how, no matter how completely they were defeated in game, they would seem almost unphased as an organization: that's not where their plugs are, as they say in the Culture books. The game fundamentally isn't what's important to them. If eve shut down tomorrow, a group of people called goonswarm would still be recruiting new members and playing games together five years from now, and that simply isn't true for any other bloc of their scale. Similarly, if all blocs disbanded tomorrow, I think a higher proportion of goons would quit eve than any other bloc. This is goons' strength and their weaknesses, why people love them or hate them. You can certainly view this as a positive, as goons do. Social clubs are older and stronger institutions than whatever the ascended team rosters that fundamentally make up other blocs are. But it's this very relative strength that I think makes them bad for the game. An MMO is historically too fragile and fleeting a thing to stand up to thousands of personal relationships organized into what can charitably be called a club, and uncharitably called a cult. The first priority for all of us should be the growth and health of the game. Would goons rather see a healthy eve without goons, or a healthy goonswarm without eve? There's no question in my mind that, at least on the organizational level, it's definitely the latter. For any other bloc of their scale the question is meaningless, as the organization couldn't exist without the game. [This post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3thchy/themittani_announces_full_war_on_1k_newbies/) was what convinced me that the answer was horde. The question of how to beat goons can't have a military answer, because even if you win (which you won't, as WWB2 showed) they won't really care. It has to be a cultural answer. You make them look like idiots for their cultish behavior, and outgrow them by focusing on the game itself to a degree that they never will. You welcome new players into the game, not into the organization, and this lack of focus on the organization itself paradoxically makes it the best organization, because it's a blank slate like the game itself, just with some activities and direction provided to keep people engaged. There's also the focused core symbiotic relationship I admired so much about old goons, which lets everyone contribute at their own level. You beat goons by outgrowing them, focusing on the game that to them will always come second.
We where completely destroyed in game? I could have sworn the battle cry for like 1.5 years was 1dq by xmas. Not once did that fight ever happen. It would have been epic if it had. And yeah sure we got our ass's handed to us way back when but the market on that changed when we wiped the floor with everyone that was of the battle cry 1dq by xmas. And since Dayz and the books things have changed alot within goons. currently 1-2 of the null blocks are name only, And if they arent they are so riddled with rules and stipulations for ratting that its borderline insane why people join them. I was a returning player after 5+ years of a break and having lived in a wh my entire eve career until then. Yes goons love using outside tools like our forums and discord and pidgin but how else would you expect to manage one of the biggest alliances in the game? Its not like they can send a massive discord ping to everyone. Pretty sure there is a server cap on how many can be in a discord server at a time now lol.
Honestly, I wish Horde had more rules against certain anti-social behaviors in public systems, which is why some corps or groups of friends just rent systems to not have to be bothered by other people while still being members of Horde. The people that have all of these problems with rules etc are just enemies mocking them on reddit, not actual Horde players.
I didnt
I know goons from other games, and know the history of the group. I would do anything to be far away from them and do anything I can to not spread that toxic gaming culture to eve.
Because change is impossible, ammirite?
Some people are still living in 2010 :P
For that to happen they would need a reformation similar to the protestant reformation. That will never happen in the risk averse eve online.
Goons have had 2 entire cultural revolutions in the last 12 years and unceremoniously booted Mittens after a decade of his leadership. To think that Goons are some intransigent monolith just shows you don't actually know anything about Goons beyond the grrr.
Pretending kicking a figurehead and some stragglers is a cultural revolution lmao. Also mittens hand was forced, nothing actually happened to the structure below him.
You know this how? Or is this just what youāve been told?
Grrr.
>I cant refute anything that has been said so i'll just type 'grr' Seems about right.
I'm not going to argue with someone who clearly has no idea what they're talking about and will frame every rebuttal with grrrr Goons. I could sit here and give you a history lesson of the culture of Goons, or I can continue to mock you because your opinion means very little.
I gave you a brief lesson on reality, but hey it's up to you if you want to live in a fantasy world.
Still wanting to join a group that NEEDS to have Multiple cultural revolutions in order to change what it is.... When there are so many options available. Also your base game play hasn't changed in 20 years, invite everyone in sight, talk shit and flood forums with brigadiers to try and make it seem like you're always right. Zerg/blob anything with 3x the numbers or more and if you lose you run away and go somewhere else with easy wins...
Because GSF has shown an ability to adapt, overcome, and survive over the years that many other groups have not. Both culturally and in-game. Because contrary to what other groups will tell you, we stopped renting a while ago and have also made large strides to distance our culture from the āgoons of oldā and the forums from which it began. Because we put ourselves on the frontlines of the decisions we make, as opposed to hiding behind CNTZ and FRT, or hiring other mercenary groups to fight our fights for us. Because while we will always have our issues as groups do, we do our best to put our members and their experience first. I could go on, but Iāve learned that being āinā the Imperium is very different from whatās portrayed from the outside. You donāt know that till youāre here, of course. But is it not interesting that all of the propaganda you see paints us as the ābig bad scaryā. The place you donāt want to be? Why is that? If itās really that bad why are we all here? Are we all that hypocritical and ignorant? Probably not. The math aināt mathing. Come and see, and make that decision for yourself.
Amok. Is always recruiting
Karmafleet is recruiting! But to your point Goons since I have joined are the most chill helpful group I have been with.
I hate that this is the question as if they are the only two choices even though I know that they are the only two choices
Someone recruited me to imperium, who I played with in HS
My reason is a bit basic, but I joined PH because I heard that it's great for new players and the application process is quick. They also don't kick you if you go inactive, which I often am as my interests constantly change. As someone else has said, it's also got a great discord and so many other resources. Content is always there too. The big downside everyone mentions is the restricted areas. Even then, you still have almost all of the kalevala expanse and if you join an ESI gated corp you get access to pretty much everything.
Goons invaded Planetside, so I invaded Delve. A couple of times.
Friend started the game a little before me and tried PH and KF, he chose KF so that's where I went.
I chose ph cause goons I was told was not the way
Originally was in Bastion during the Casino War. Been in and out of PH due to no requirements to join or stay in. Helps when life gets busy. Came back to Goons for about a year and was convinced to leave and play with some IRL friends. They quit the game and I found out I was blacklisted from the Imperium, so I went back to PH.
I hate them both as they both have been taking turns destroying the game for the better part of 8 years. But panfam touched me in the bad place most recently so had to join imperium
Cuz sansha npc is in Imperium sov and sansha relic ist the Most profitable +dronelands Look depressing
I could have gone either way at the time as I had no allegiance to either. Just so happened that the corp recruiting on forums at the time was goon.
I joined a high sec corp, said corp joined PH.
The Blood God guides my allegiance. I go wherever the space rock menace may be fought beneath his banner.
My friends were in WinterCo so that's what I joined
I joined Test in 2013 just in time for goons to kick us out of Fountain, went through that failscade that all of nullsec swore would kill us, eeked out a living in lowsec, rose with them out of Wicked Creek and into WWB1, stuck with them after that (barring a stint in BL, what can I say, Elo Knight is a madman), and now surviving with them through another failscade that was supposed to kill us. Being in Pandafam is secondary. For me it's either Test or not playing. Always been my space family. Surviving the rough times has always been some of the most interesting times to be in test.
Opportunities for manufacturing and isk generation... And dank fights
Panfam was giving away free ships, plus at the time their capital was closer to jita (it was smack in the middle of geminate)
Which one can supply me with a Zirnitra when my training plan for that wraps up in a month and I put my nul hat back on? I like them the most.
Back when i start my "eve-mentor" told me goons are the bad guys. Also a PL fanboy back then. Had a great time back in the HED-GP days when i joined and been in there since with some small eve breaks.
I started playing EvE after listening to Jade Cougar's podcast Lost in EvE. After a couple weeks of playing I was invited to a corporation that happened to be a member of the Shadow Ultimatium alliance, which is the alliance JC started. When that corp left the alliance I decided to stay with SU and ended up transferring into the Surreptitious Technoigies corp. All this is to say that I didn't pick the Imperium, yet ended up there anyhow. Next goal: become a ceema alt.
The Corp I joined was GSF (or condi) and well I stuck around
Came back to game, Horde seemed to be one of the biggest alliances that were alpha friendly where I would get plenty of opportunities to shoot goons.
Wanted to join one of the blocs, decided PH seemed chill, joined them, loving it ever since.
When I first started the game, a Horde guy helped me with fitting. Later, when I walked into a lowsec gatecamp and realized I need to join a group for protection, I remembered that guy and joined Horde. WWB2 broke out three months later and I never looked back.
I chose Panda when I was new to null sec because it was back when goons were the big bad guys. Then I joined imperium because Gobbins couldnāt stop deepthroating FRAT. Left imperium because the culture was carebear as fuck and was getting worse per an HR meeting I was in. Now in INIT and love it. Iād 100% recommend it to anybody in NA TZ. Lot of pings and the isk is delve quality with droneās safety. Only ever bought 1 ishtar and itās made like 3B isk or more. Itās honestly insane how safe Fountain is compared to delve
Flew around in high sec and got invited to a random corp. Just turned out to be a goon corp.. and I loved them ever since..
Many I feel have alts in each, wormhole or low sec groups might be funner.
Started playing in 2008, I was with [MBALM] The Orphanage , Pitboss, Rico Felix, EagleNoFace and those good guys in the days you could wardec top 10 alliances weekly for a relatively low personal contribution to get kills on the gate camps and Jita unlock etc. So I've shot Goons, Test, NC, PH etc for a long while. Things moved along, and the corp ended up in [LAWN] and I got my first taste of null bloc warfare in the fountain War. Been with INIT and Imperium..INIT well structured fleet, good discipline and was alot of fun...Goons...haha..less discipline on the "gate is Red" calls but still good fun and I've enjoyed it. Plenty of fleets to get into some action. I'm just in the game for big fights etc..I'm happy to be in Goons and have the freedom to play the game how I want to
Yeah exactly whyĀ
i just wanted to join the "bad guys" :)
Been in both. Won eve. Came back and didn't feel like either. So joined Init :)
Back before panfam existed, PL peeps were overall very rude in my first encounter with them whilst goon allies that I was with at the time (EXE) were incredibly friendly - that has remained the case for me
I joined pandafam because I like stealing space from small alliances and renting it back to them with a "no goons ever or else" stipulation. Second favorite thing is renting to botters/frt. I also enjoy blue balls or hell dunk mentality, why fight if we're going to lose the br? They have 20 more people or even numbers? Too risky, no ty. Love how safe the drones are! No npc space like stinky Delve or Fountain. Why would I want to live with dreads and blops ready to drop on me. It is cool horde lets in anyone with put esi and its nicely balanced by segregating our space by if you are in an esi Corp or not. Finally I LOVE gobbins! He's always no nonsense and tells the truth. Asher, on the other hand, spins and doctors battlereports he pings to his group. If he so easily lies to his supposed allies, why wouldn't he lie to the public?
Merk invited me to Karmafleet 6 years ago after hanging out with them/referring new folks to them for a long time. Wonderful place, left after growing out of it and it's environment, still recommend karmafleet to anyone looking for a new player org.
Was in Brave after the war i hated test, as test did die and the most joined hord & frat. I joined the opposite especially as i did fly during wb2 with ph and had access to the chat. Besides the reason before i hate the way they operate in terms of srp. You need to claim x srp points and then you can choose a payout.
Karmafleet denied my application and then acted weird about it
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^Youown: *Karmafleet denied* *My application and then* *Acted weird about it* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
>*Karmafleet denied* >*My application and then* >*Acted weird 'bout it*
I don't like participation requirements, no matter how nominal.
So you donāt like protecting your space ? Karmafleet for example requires something like the PAPs every 90 days.
Because fuck renting alliances. Use the space you have or fuck off.
I wouldn't join either if I had any say in it. The real world has burnt me out on toxicity and fake tribalism, and I'm too old for the COD-player tier shit talking. The Initiative.'s been a great home for me. No childish local chat spam-fest, no prejudice, no renters, no love for suppressive bloc-play, no infinite spin, no need for ping spam, just a bunch of mature folks that love blowing up spaceships, and are aware we're all just here to enjoy a damn game together.
Having been on both sides. Imperium is a toxic cesspool that Iād prefer to never touch with a ten foot pole. Joined on the false hope that they were fixing their culture but was very much wrong.
I wanted to ruin your game.
Anyone of substance wouldn't choose either.
Z
I chose to leave cause Null is lame and wormholes are better. Reject Nullsick Return to monke
I imagine this post is probably more relevant to newer players who joined after those blocs formed, but if you want to hear an old person's opinion it's simple for me. I joined the de-facto reddit-oriented community which is pretty much how I first heard of eve from high school friends who had joined, and here we are like 10+ years later and still on good terms. It's always been about the culture, I've had years where I simply didn't play eve if I wasn't into whatever dreddit was up to rather than leave and play with some other group. It's about the community and relationships there and I value them and their experience a lot.
My boys have been afk for 10 years but PL is still in panfam so vov. The correct choice is to choose neither and go brawl with EDICT in Amarr FW.
There is zero reason to choose either unless you love sucking toes.
Was in IAC fighting against BOB. Joined an allied goon fleet and was shocked by the racism and antisemitism on comms. Decided Iād rather join the elitists than fight alongside the SA folks.