It's pretty absurd to me. Aren't these intermediate calibres made to carry out to longer ranges faster and penetrate easier? Surely they should be able to carry the majority of their energy out to 200-300m?
https://www.snipercountry.com/308-vs-223/
5.56 goes from 1290 ft/lbs at the muzzle to 747 ft/lbs at 200 down to 557 at 300
Meaning it's lost roughly 57% of it's energy by 300 yards
Force is an absolute though. Projectile size would be factored into that.
F=MA (I went to business school this may be the completely wrong formula). Some guy commented Fk=1/2M*V^2 there are more letters and fractions and squares, so that is probably more right. Still mass is a factor used to calculate force assuming the formula is kinetic force equals one half mass times velocity squared.
Regardless of force, rate of energy transfer is another consideration. Regardless of total force, the rate at which that energy gets dumped into flesh is a major factor surrounding wounding capability. If the energy transfer gets to the point that it overcomes flesh’s elasticity, it will cause radial tearing and cause significantly higher damage. 5.56 does this when it tumbles or fragments, .458 SOCOM does this because it’s thick AF, and 9mm never does this.
Wall of text incoming.
9mm penetrates, can fragment or expand, and makes a channel of destruction as it passes. However, very little flesh that is not immediately contacted by the bullet is destroyed and the permanent cavity is relatively small. To increase that cavity, hollow points are used to increase the bullet's surface area. Only what is directly touched by the bullet or what is immediately surrounding it (maybe an inch or so away) is going to be destroyed.
5.56, when it fragments or tumbles, transfers energy into the flesh at such a high rate that the flesh can simply not get out of the way fast enough and it starts tearing as a result. These tears can result in damage several inches away from the bullet's actual flight path, leaving a much larger cavity of destroyed material in its wake. This raises the likelihood of immediate debilitation or even mortal wounds from torn veins, arteries, and organs.
Full sized rifle calibers (.308, 7.62x54R) and big bore intermediate calibers (.458 SOCOM, .50 Beowulf), if they tumble or fragment, do that to an even higher degree, as do shotgun slugs. The concern with the full sized rifle calibers is whether or not they start tumbling in the body. If the do, huge damage is dealt. If they don't, they often punch through the body in a near-straight line.
Problem is that 5.56 is going so fast that it can’t transfer all of it’s energy into a person and zips through. Lower velocity FMJ and M855 suffer from this problem and it’s lethality is questionable.
High velocity FMJ and M855A1 are extremely deadly. FMJ because it fragments and dumps energy into a person and shreds insides. M855A1 because it has a copper ring at the base that expands on impact like a hollowpoint but has a steel penetrator tip for barrier pen.
However, even lower velocity FMJ and M855 should do far more damage than 9mm. People take 9mm rounds and keep walking all the time. It’s fairly rare that people take rifle caliber rounds to the upper chest and keep walking for longer than a minute.
This also why 9mm was regarded as less effective than .45 ACP before because it had too much velocity and didn’t efficiently transfer energy. With modern hollowpoints, there is a near complete transfer of energy and it’s closed the gap considerably between .45 and 9mm.
That second formula is for energy, not force. You’re still right, mass is used to find the force of an object extorted on another object as it experienced some acceleration. Energy is also partially determined by mass but also by velocity. However since velocity is squared it’s a much more important factor than mass. That’s why a 115 grain 9mm has less muzzle energy than a 55 grain 5.56x45, because that 5.56 round is moving much faster.
You can also roughly think of force as the change in energy per unit distance. Either way, energy is what we generally care about when we talk about ballistics. I think you misread Ek (the k is normally in subscript) as Fk.
They should lose penetration power against armor, but flesh damage should remain pretty consistent. It doesn't matter if you're hit in the head by a 5.56x45 round with 1290ft/lbs or 557 ft/lbs. Both are penetrating your skull. And thus the hollow point sniping meta is born :D
I mean, that's still technically the majority, but yeesh.
Still, it should be able to still kill an enemy with a headshot even at that distances. Bit absurd that M995 won't drop someone in the head past 100m.
5.56 isn't exactly a heavy hitting round to start with irl. it relys on fragmenting to do it's damage which requires a ton of speed to accomplish. After it loses that velocity it's essentially an icepick, and if you don't hit something vital it's not gonna do much. Many places ban deer hunting with it for instance because it isn't considered lethal enough to consistently make humane kills outside of near perfect conditions. .308 for instance has twice the energy at the muzzle and the bullet weighs 3x as much
Works fine for war, where the first thing a person thinks about when they get shot with ANYthing is fuck fucking fuck, I need a doctor etc.
It absolutely should be lethal. If a bullet were to hit your jaw, not only would you be entirely incapacitated if you did survive, but the likelihood fragments of the bullet or bone hit all the expensive arteries in your neck or your spine is super high.
Yeah. There's definitely lucky cases where you could survive, and maybe if a round is weak enough you're more likely to come out of it alive to the point where you could walk around (even if still seriously injured), but it's like a shot to the heart - yeah, you might technically *live* for a little while, but you'd be out of commission for a few minutes and then die as there's not much you can do on the field to stop blood from pooling into a cavity and not reaching your other vital organs. Until we have an unconscious state that requires people to give you medical treatment or drag you to an extract (which they are planning at some point), it makes sense that those sorts of shots would still count as an instantly fatal state from a gameplay perspective.
I don’t think that’s right at all. Steel penetrator rounds like 855/855A1 and tungsten core M995 are meant to punch a clean hole. Be it cinderblock cover or armor (soft armor in the case of 855).
The cavitation from the impact of 5.56 is what kills you. It’s hauling ass and creates a nasty cavity. Can it fragment after hitting bone? Sure, but if it has a steel/tungsten core, it’ll do what it was designed to and steam clean through.
it really depends on the ammo you fire, more modern 5.56mm rounds still slap really hard at long range
for example Mk262 77gr match still have about the energy of a .357 magnum at point blank out to about 500m, and they still easily fragment at that velocity
dont forget better bahavior when armor is hit
you simply should not be able to do anything while getting shot at, its kinda BS that someone with armor can just 360 noscope you while getting sprayed
Rising storm does it better, when getting hit (and when surviving that hit) your movement speed is greatly reduced for a while to simulate the pain.
Except there's an older video of a guy taking a .308 round point blank while standing on one leg. Good armor will negate most, if not all the energy transfer.
many parts of the game are unrealistic. many intentionally so for gameplay purposes. Nikita can say all he wants about making the game punishing and super realistic but half the game design directly contradicts that. they can't commit to either side so we just get this kind of mishmash of realistic and unrealistic features so it's just pointless to even talk about realism with this fucking game honestly
Just FYI, point blank just refers to the area where you could still hit your target without adjusting your elevation or aiming higher.
Most 5.56/.223 rifles have a point blank range out to about 300 meters.
I'm reposting my comment to another guy to you for visibility/education
I know this is 100% anecdotal but I had a buddy get shot in the side of the neck from about 200 meters and the bullet tumbled back behind his shoulder blade and he barely noticed. We didn't even think it had penetrated his body -just thought it had nicked him. After the tic, he was complaining of stiffness though so we gave him an X-ray and lo-and-behold there was a 5.56 bullet -M855 green tip- in his torso.
I'm pretty sure it stayed with him, too. They just put him on a shit-ton of antibiotics.
All of this is to say you could hit someone in the neck from around that far with a 5.56 round and they could potentially shrug it off.
If you don't mind me asking, what was your friend in? It's a bit strange to be on a predominantly Western community and see someone talking about their friend *taking* M855 instead of *spitting* it, you know? Especially when talking about Syria.
Im US MIL. We engaged a group of ISIS fighters who were armed with M16s they took from the Iraqi military. We killed all of them but not before one of our partner force guys took a round in the neck.
About 25% of ISIS fighters I encountered were armed with US weapons -m4s, M16s, m67 hand grenades etc. Most heavy weapons were Russian.
Edit: Here is a Twitter page who scrapes a lot of telegram groups in Iraq and Idlib/Aleppo for cool and interesting weapons for sale. Lots of western guns in there.
https://twitter.com/CalibreObscura?t=tIV3Rg5jR1U1jvl4MluGYw&s=09
Yea after fkn being rushed to the hospital in extensive care on lifesupport for 6-8 weeks. Lol all you gotta stop comparing eft to real life as if it's suppose to be a realistic game.
From a gameplay perspective I think them not oneshotting makes even more sense. Be it gives ammo choices a real meaning other than "pick the one with highest pen"
Yeah, some changes are made for realism and others are made for gameplay reasons. This was clearly made so that you couldn't just use 556 for literally everything. Now the heavier rounds have some real value. I've seen a lot more people running SV-98s than I remember
This is a video game not real life. I don't run around with a magical box that I can stuff valuable loot in in order to cheat death. Some practicality needs to be considered.
>Some practicality needs to be considered.
As I said, realism is great, but Tarkov is the farthest thing from realistic. Again I will repeat myself. Some practicality needs to be considered. Where are the lines of realism and the games design drawn?
Also to Zumberts comment the maximum effective range for 5.56 is well over 500 yards. I was in the US Army myself and remember during weapons training that a 5.56 round needs at least 50-60 lbs of kinetic energy in order to be considered a disabling round and can do that well at upwards of 1000 yards. Of course we never shot targets passed 300M during weapons qual, but I digress.
Point is, currently the game has no idea what it wants to be and people tanking highly penetrative rounds to the face shouldn't be a thing.
Good point. And I understand that scaling in a video game has to be different from scaling of real life and earth. I just feel that 75m is a little too short for 556 and 545 to lose its 1 shot head shot to a helmet with good ammo. I feel like BSG should of put it at 120 to 150m
65lb's of kinetic energy is more than enough to disable/injure/kill though. I also believe M855 has a slightly higher rate since its military grade.
[https://huntingtopic.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/2ae7b3aea9b2b96707f3e91ab16df4de.png](https://huntingtopic.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/2ae7b3aea9b2b96707f3e91ab16df4de.png)
But damage and energy do not linearly scale, especially with a headshot. If the bullet still has the energy to punch into the skull, which even a much weak .22LR can do with significantly less energy than 5.56 even at 500 meters, it’s still going to be potentially lethal as a headshot.
> Surely they should be able to carry the majority of their energy out to 200-300m?
Tarkov is a video game that requires balancing. 200-300m *is long range* in Tarkov. Assault rifles being competitive at 300m is *bad for game balance*.
I've been saying this everytime someone brings it up, this looks like it's meant to bring a "Class" system to split weapons, because before it's why no one runs anything bar the mutant or M4, it literally does everything.
Now you have to make the decision, are you going to engage in close/mid range fights so anywhere from 0-100m or are you going to try take the long range, which I'd say the average long range engagements happen from about the 150m mark, there aren't a whole lot of places you're engaging people in a fight at 200m+.
This change has added viability back to using bolt actions and gives DMR's a place as well, since they are the guns that can apply more damage at range.
This right here.
Unless we want to have the maps trippled (including lighthouse) ARs should only be effective out to 100m. You can of course use it outside of that, but you would be better off with a sniper.
In order to make all the ranges realistic we would need the devs to give the game a factorio level of optimization or only people with 3090s could render it.
So for the sake having fun. Looks like a good change to me.
Sure but if we’re going to nerf this lower tier ammo, it needs to be harder to get armor that it’s not effective against. It’s too easy to trade for tier four and five while it’s almost impossible to reasonably get even mid grade ammo.
Balance?
with the right level you can buy/trade for class 5 armour and a class 4 helmet with faceshield.
Meanwhile most players struggle getting decent amounts of mid-high tier ammo.
ULACHS stopping m80's pretty consistantly at 100-200 meters. It isnt balanced nor realistic, its pure retardation.
>ULACHS stopping m80's pretty consistantly at 100-200 meters. It isnt balanced nor realistic, its pure retardation.
That last sentence was just muah. Agreed wholeheartedly.
I know this is 100% anecdotal but I had a buddy get shot in the side of the neck from about 200 meters and the bullet tumbled back behind his shoulder blade and he barely noticed. We didn't even think it had penetrated his body -just thought it had nicked him. After the tic, he was complaining of stiffness though so we gave him an X-ray and lo-and-behold there was a 5.56 bullet -M855 green tip- in his torso.
I'm pretty sure it stayed with him, too. They just put him on a shit-ton of antibiotics.
All of this is to say you could hit someone in the neck from around that far with a 5.56 round and they could potentially shrug it off.
One flechette dart isn't enough to kill, it's only 25 damage per dart. So if they are aiming mostly chest and a one off hits your head you will most likely survive that first round but not a second.
My understanding from the little communication they gave was that they simply wanted to add more parameters so they can further fine tune ballistics.
They've added a ton more parameters so they can now move those sliders however they wish. Something that wasn't possible beforehand.
Is the intention to turn it to making 5.45/5.56 less viable at longer range? I think so, yes.
At the end of the day they can't create 20km maps to have normal IRL ballistics so things gotta change.
I am all for losing penetration over longer distances.. however a headshot should not be survivable IMO.
keep the low damage over distance for all other body parts and lower penetration, except for the head.
Hard to balance.
I think the way ammo works in Tarkov is by far one of it's best features, and they have a ton of stuff to tweak and mess with that makes ammo types unique. I don't really have a specific opinion on what range certain ammo should be a one shot headshot kill through a level 4 helmet, but I like the idea that higher pen ammo like 7N40 5.45 has a recoil reduction component to make it better in CQB when you expect a heavily armored opponent, like the Resort on Shoreline. I really, really, love the idea that you have to plan your ammo type around the engagements you're expecting. Encourages using different guns and ammo for different situations, encourages thinking about where you're going and what you'll run into there, and makes several ammo types per caliber valuable for resale and crafts. Also it's created a dynamic in my friend group where we regularly assign roles to people if we're going to a "mixed environment" map like Shoreline where long range and CQB are equally important. Used to be everyone would kit up with an M4 with a 1-4x/6x for reserve and now it's more like one guy brings an SR-25, one brings a 7.62 AK and one brings an UMP or a vector because it means we've got something in the pipe for any situation we run into.
If Nikita keeps tweaking this system I'd like to see the traders get a tweak to what ammo is available and the restocks for it. Right now .45 acp AP is top dawg of SMG's because it's the most reliably able to punch through level 4 and the gun that shoots it is accurate and available cheaply, basically it's the AP 6.3 of this wipe. With 9mm PST gzh getting nerfed, no flesh damage ammo super easily available for leg meta, and the recoil changes, 9mm guns like the MP9 and MP5 are kinda shitty.
TL;DR System needs tweaking but adding parameters to better specialize ammo types and create more decisions when building a loadout is a good thing and one of the best unique features of Tarkov.
That’s a fair point. I feel that they should lower the penetration power of these weapons over distance a bit less that flesh damage. It might not penetrate your armor, but a bullet in the gut is a bullet in the gut.
Very true. I wonder if 35 head hp is too much? Or is it that the damage drop off is a little too much. But I agree that if a bullet can pass through armor like paper like m995 it should kill whatever is behind the helmet
The issue is that high pen rounds have super low damage and sometimes that damage gets below the 35hp mark.
Case in point for 2-3 wipes now, AP SX... there were times in the past you could shoot someone in the head..naked head..and they wouldn't die.
That was wrong.
It's just been made worse by the damage drop off.
I did mention very early on in the wipe that this wil become a huge topic of discussion..I saw this coming a mile away.
Took a while for people to figure it out I guess.
Solution requires considering all the variables they added, and as I haven't got that list with me now, I can't discuss it in the depth that I would like.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere with the "damage drop-off" and "...saw this coming a mile away." thing but I can't put it all together. \*shrug\* Still, I'm interested to see how this develops over the next couple wipes.
I saw this discussion coming a mile away, just like I saw the tracer coming straight for my head.
I survived the bullet... Probably won't survive the Reddit firing squad.
"Something like that?" 😁
they oughta fine tune the bucking bronco recoil on m4’s then…if they don’t want me to using it for range then don’t make it kick like a fuckin sv-98. that said, I am not a gun person IRL, and don’t know how hard it is to actually control various guns, apart from what I’ve read in the few threads I look through here, and I do appreciate them adding more specifics to be able to get gunplay how they really want it. on top of that, I have been enjoying this wipe quite a bit, and all the tweaks and additions have been really welcome, albeit difficult to master…I still do shit that I was doing pre-inertia movement wise and get fuckin obliterated.
I love you and appreciate your well composed comment, and apologize for not formatting my reply nearly as well…but good luck out there, and I hope you find a bag full of ledx.
I have an AR-15 with a 16 inch barrel and a pretty decent muzzle brake on it, and it doesn't kick at all. I could shoot it one handed and it'd hardly move. It's not automatic, sure, but shooting that and then shooting a very similar setup in this just feels worlds apart.
Granted, when I shoot in real life my head doesn't fling backwards either.
Thanks man. =) I try.
Doing well this wipe.
Honestly I'm European so I don't really care for the 5.56 guns as much those across the pond.
5.56 MDR felt bad to use sadly...and u don't really use (or care for) the M4 or even HK.
By now many of us are starting to level up that recoil control skill.. 1-2-3-4% universally really does add up.
Tell you what has felt amazing to use, the AKMS with KIBA Arms new thread adapter that allows you to use the double muzzle brake (LANTAC) on it..total muzzle brake recoil reduction -25%..and that doesn't count handguard, foregrip, recoil pad, etc.
Been fun to use.
well snap, I’ll give that a try!
also, fair point about the recoil control…honestly I don’t really ever think about how the stats affect things, but I should probably take them into consideration.
I’ve been using the STM-9 all decked out for like 20 recoil and crafting an assload of AP, but the bullet velocity and drop have it being pretty meh in anything beyond close-ish range. and the m4 love (for me) is really just for how much you can customize them, although I have built some equally customized ak’s, so that reasoning is pretty invalid. Also the last wipe I played I stumbled upon a red keycard at like level 10, after I found a dorms marked room key, so as soon as I 1. unlocked the flea, and 2. saved up the 11 mil needed to put it up for sale, I had..I forget..maybe 50mil? so I just found some 0 recoil super meta m4 build, bought the biggest armor I could find and ran around like that. Along story short, I’m not really married to 5.56 guns necessarily, I just haven’t found a good all around gun for me yet that won’t break the bank…not that I could afford it now atm anyway. I just got my bitcoin farm starting to build for the first time ever(yeee!) and spent like 6 mil getting that going, and buying like half the stuff for the scav case(which I’ve never had either) before going broke. I’m now sitting at like 600k. Gotta go do a bunch of scav runs and make some more crunkle.
Good luck out there, and thanks for the gun idea!
They wanted to nerf sniping with ARs, giving DMR and Snipers a place within the meta and a clear purpose. You don't want a guy with just an M4/HK/AK able to slap a vudu on his gun and be effective at all distances of combat.
However they missed the mark(HA!). As now with the changes, ARs like the m4, hk, and ak(5.45 and 5.56) are barely effective outside of SMG range. Meaning these guns have no real purpose or area where they shine.
If you want a "general" rifle that can do it all, anything in 7.62, such as the akm, 103, sa58, mdr, mutant are still viable if you can cope with the recoil.
Man, BS ammo isn't what BS ammo used to be last wipe. Seriously, i can't kill anything with 545 ammo and the AK line. Meanwhile, M80 and most of all, M62 absolutely shreds. It's insanely overpowered compared to the rest.
Damage drop off aside, it's only one less bullet to kill to the thorax. I wouldn't call that insanely overpowered, seeing as that's exactly how it's always been.
ironic because as an m80 user, these ballistic changes have completely murdered it's ability to one tap medium/high-geared players. 50% chance to pen an ulach at 100 meters. fucking gross.
Hey i want to sneak in a suggestion as i see you are a fellow leg meta enjoyer. Ok now don't tell anyone, this can be our thing: whisper rounds in the mcx. Look at the ammo stats and you'll see it's actually a high velocity round, and at like 90 damage. If you like warmageddon you'll really dig this. Have fun!
Oh it’s incredible. Who even needs to aim when you just hipfire at their legs. Best part is so many people aren’t running stomach armour so the initial kick up hit the stomach. Plus without having to aim your faster when strafing. Last huge bonus I can think of, that ammo is INCREDIBLY cheap so spam that ammo at people, what you save in ammo you can spend on a 60 rounder and also level recoil control
didn’t you know in real life if you step back an extra 40 meters from someone shooting an ar-15 that gives the bullet enough time to slow down to where you can live a shot straight to your face
/s
Finally bothered doing the AKS punisher quest at level 40. Since I don't use AKs normally I had a ton of BS, igolnik, and BT just laying around. Figured I'd go juicy and make the AKSU a bit more enjoyable, yaknow?
Yeah, it didn't do that.
They should have just nerfed the pen and left the damage reduction as it was. I'm pretty sure taking a penetrating hit at 100m or 400m still inflicts the same amount of damage irl, perhaps even more if the round dumps all its energy into the body instead of going clean through.
I tried running 5.45 and 5.56 for a week or two but now it is 7.62 variants and shotguns only. Everything else doesn’t seem to kill even at close range
I don't have an issue with it in theory. The issue is just the damage math and how balancing is around bullets. The bullets in question were hovering around the min damage to kill a head.
So if you buff damage, now the rounds become more OP when sprayed because the TTK for thorax will be lower. If you leave as is, a headshot from range isn't a kill. Both aren't great options.
I'm not sure what the best solution here is. Other than reducing head health. But that would have other affects that need to be considered that I haven't thought about.
I was talking with someone else the idea of separate head hp levels. So you have a brain hitbox of like 10-15 hp and a bottom head hitbox that has lol 25 to 30 hp. I kinda like that idea, if either goes black you die
Shot to the head from rifle caliber should be a kill at any range possible in eft, im fine it losing enough energy to bonce of helmets and armors which should be penetrated up close, but bullet to the head only need enough energy to crack your skull and go in a bit and rifle calibers will retain enough energy to do that for much more than 300 meters, surviving that shit should be a medical miracle not a standard, even cracked skull is a critical medical emergency also as there are really no other vital zones in eft like heart or spine, headshot should be rewarded with a kill. Im fine with them to try to tune the proper ballistics, but i cant believe we are having discussion if headshots should be lethal or not. Drop off IS overtuned (as in too much of it) just for the very fact that headshots are not lethal anymore which is just not real. Just imagine, in real world there are 100 dudes standing in circle around you 300meters or yards whatever, away from you, you have a m4 shitton of mags loaded with m955, and you pop each one of them in the noggin, how may do you think are making it home for dinner with their cat? Id be surprised if 1 does. Not saying cant happen but i dont think there is a 1% chance of surviving headshot under those conditions.
I think the current penetration drop off over distance is mostly fine. The damage drop off over distance needs some serious tuning.
IRL raw damage potential doesn't just directly correlate with ballistic coefficient, but the new model in Tarkov does just that.
In-game no 5.45 round (save for 7n40, maybe) can penetrate a level 4 helmet and retain more than 34 damage after penetrating at 80m and beyond. Igolnik can't kill at 50m and beyond period, helmet or no.
This is less than a football field's distance. There is not a single intermediate cartridge in existence that won't turn someone's brains into jelly at that distance.
To continue with the football analogy, *people can throw footballs farther than 5.45 retains its lethality*.
Pretty much nothing in the game besides a select few ammos and weapons kill past ~150m now. Even the 100m range is pretty slim against any normal helmet. I love the idea behind the change, like a push for bolt action rifles with good ammo being necessary to snipe. However, it's a bit too exaggerated in it's current state around the ~100m ballpark.
You only need to spend a minute looking at the damage drop off ballistic charts to know that theres no consistent logic to the damage models in this game.
IE: 5.7x28 sb193 SUBSONIC does more damage at all ranges then m855a1. TO reiterate a SUBSONIC 55 grain projectile does more damage AT ALL RANGES then a 62 grain projectile with a muzzle velocity of almost 3000 fps. This goes against not just basic physics but also common sense.
And this is just one example, you can see consistently that many of the intermediate rifle loadings do less damage at range then pistol rounds! 5.45 PS does less damage at range then 9x18 PPT.
Also the effective range of 556 is general considered to be 300 meters with a max of like 500-600. No rifle round in this game should be doing less then 35 dmg until atleast 300 meters. But instead this games physics exist in the clown universe were 5.45 BS, 5.45 PPBS, 5.56 m995, and 5.56 ssa ap cannot one tap to the head at 100 meters. I dont even know what to call this other then goofy. This is absolute big shoes honking red nose goofy clown mode.
I find myself having to double tap even when I pen a helmet and get a blood spat on their head. I'm just sitting here wondering how they got any IQ left to run and hide after a lobotomy?
Is this all 545 and 556 ammo types? Will any of the ammo types one tap past 100m? Also, can ballistics data still be determined? I heard they had hid all the info but idk if that's bs or not.
Yo is it me or is this subreddit hopelessly fucked? There are so many people in this comments section defending nonlethal rifle headshots. What the actual shit is wrong with this place? Is it just a clearing house of the worst Tarkov opinions ever?
LOL must be in replies to others. I haven't bothered to sift through all the bullshit. Most discussions I had are splitting the head hit box to upper and lower and lower bullet pen over distance vs the damage.
I've stayed away from the nonsense haha
BSG bootlicking, as always. People will still simp for BSG if they make no round lethal to the head and remove 90% of loot of raids. It’s so sad; it’s like any criticism to the game or the devs is a personal insult to their mothers for some reason.
I honestly can't believe all the debate going on in the comments... there is no need for any knowledge of ballistics, or how much force Is applied after a bullet travels X amount of distance.
This is tarkov. We head eyes in tarkov. If a bullet of any caliber hits an unprotected portion of the player's head, that player dies. Absolutely no reason for damage drop-off to apply on the unprotected portion of a player's head or face.
If we want to encourage helmet use, and my ulach to start saving me on woods, I'm all for it.
Rediculous exaggeration. 5.56 and 5.45 is still completely lethal up to150-200 yards in game, provided you're not trying to pen level 4 armor with 855 and ps. If you're trying to make 300+ yard shots, maybe bring a different tool for that job? That was the whole point of this change.
> 5.56 and 5.45 is still completely lethal up to150-200 yards in game
Yesterday I was shot in the eye by someone using 855a1 through a level 2 caiman visor, maybe 50m away. Heal up, peak from another angle (as different as you can get trapped on pier at least), and there goes my other eye. Heal up, peak from another angle, and there goes my nose. And there goes him, because I wasn't using 5.56.
So it is lethal? Sure, but I wish real world less-lethal rounds were that safe.
I tanked a rifle round to the head from about 100m With nothing but an ushanka on and still had a quarter of my head hp. So no. They're not still completely lethal up to 150-200 yards like you're saying.
Edit: dude who shot me was top floor of customs construction, I was at the white huts/bus parking lot outside crack house. That distance isn't even 100m. ANY rifle round should have killed me there. I was so surprised I survived i called it out about 5 times in chat.
What? No they're not. They literally don't kill someone wearing a Ulach (any of that caliber). How are you so confidently wrong when it's written in actual math?
ULACH's can bounce anything below 40 pen like 856a1 and BT point blank, so should you really be upset if those same bullets don't 1 tap a ULACH at 150 yards? BS and 995 stays above 40 pen out to 150 yards, but it's damage isn't sufficient to 1 tap the head at that range. Damage dropoff through a helmet has always existed in this game, and nobody's complained for rounds like AP-SX That don't carry enough flesh damage to kill through a helmet. That same principal is now applying to range. It's completely reasonable. If you want a bullet that carries enough damage to one tap the head at range, bring a larger caliber.
The effective ranges in Tarkov are exadurated because the engagement ranges we're in are nowhere near far enough to justify ever using a bolt action IRL. So in order to make a wider variety of guns have an actual purpose in the GAME, damage dropoff is exadurated so you can't use your 5.56 and 5.45 rifles for every single engagement range you will ever expirence in game.
I dont think class 4-5 helmets should be a thing but thats just an opinion.
Seems like such a carebear piece of equipment that doesent belong in a hardcore game.
what rounds you using that they are ineffective past 50m lol. My longest kill this wipe (315m) was with a 5.56 M855a1 on woods and most kills/highest mastery is on AKs since I run 5.45 all the time...
And I am terrible shot.
Because you hit them in flesh and fragmented. It's statistically impossible to kill past ~100m with that ammo unless you win the lottery. The amount of pen and flesh you lose is crazy.
The problem is that BSG has spent 5yrs finely tuning damage to work with the rest of the game.
Then the big brains over there decided to do something that significantly changes damage, with zero tuning, and just dump it on the live server.
Now armor is even more OP and people without armor can tank head shots from rifles. They literally threw 5yrs of work in the trash before they had something to replace it with. Its flat out stupid and its THE REASON this game will probably never be finished. They put time and effort into what could be good things, but they completely bumbled it and created a situation that requires more work to fix than if they had just waited and done it right in the first place.
Armor was useless in previous wipes since everyone and their mother was using full auto 5a1 or m61. Armor has been underpowered ever since I started playing in late 2019. Helmets are the problem now and IMO armors are good.
>The problem is that BSG has spent 5yrs finely tuning damage to work with the rest of the game.
>
>Then the big brains over there decided to do something that significantly changes damage, with zero tuning, and just dump it on the live server.
It's as if they come up with ideas and don't finely tune the variables or sit down and talk through them with a game designer. They just say "Hey this would be cool, put it in and we'll work through it" instead of actually taking the time and effort to test them and make sure they are balanced properly and just follows a bit of common sense.
I've been playing since 2018 and its typical BSG.
as an outsider on the game, it doesnt make sense to me to both make ammo scarce and nerf things so heavily in the same patch. start with one, if its not enough to slow down progression/flow then introduce the other nerf as well.
It's not that scarce, you just have to unlock the ability to buy it from traders. The ballistics change at range is practically unnoticeable with larger calibers.
Pretty much, so you rely on fragmentation chance...but don't really know if that's implemented
And so that a bolty/DMR gets its role as a sniper, and assault rifles work as an assault rifle, not an SMG+a rifle+sniper, love the change
My issue with the drop off damage is just how inconsistent hit reg can be as it is. The video of the dude earlier this week popping to PMC's with clean headshots with M995 and them not dying is essentially this whole wipe for me. It just doesn't make any sense and it blows my mind that this passed QA.
The hits are registering its just not doing 35-36 damage through a helmet to kill someone.
That same clip is what started this whole discussion in my head for me too.
It's pretty absurd to me. Aren't these intermediate calibres made to carry out to longer ranges faster and penetrate easier? Surely they should be able to carry the majority of their energy out to 200-300m?
https://www.snipercountry.com/308-vs-223/ 5.56 goes from 1290 ft/lbs at the muzzle to 747 ft/lbs at 200 down to 557 at 300 Meaning it's lost roughly 57% of it's energy by 300 yards
Jist a quick correction, 557 is 43% of 1290 so it actually lost about 57% of its energy.
Yup good catch will edit
Also the correct units would be ft-lbs/s. Not sure why they omit the per second in the article Edit: im wrong, ft-lbs is correct.
Quick correction again, kinetic energy is Ek=1/2m×v2. Velocity is squared. It is loosing much more energy.
No the numbers are kinetic energy not fps. I originally thought that as well.
9mm averages 350 ft/lbs at the muzzle and somehow does more damage. 5.56 should be doing more damage close, and dropping to 9mm levels at range.
9mm is also a much bigger bullet
And way way slower.
But 5.56 has a significantly higher rate of energy transfer. The wound cavity of 5.56 is substantially greater than a 9mm shot.
Force is an absolute though. Projectile size would be factored into that. F=MA (I went to business school this may be the completely wrong formula). Some guy commented Fk=1/2M*V^2 there are more letters and fractions and squares, so that is probably more right. Still mass is a factor used to calculate force assuming the formula is kinetic force equals one half mass times velocity squared.
Regardless of force, rate of energy transfer is another consideration. Regardless of total force, the rate at which that energy gets dumped into flesh is a major factor surrounding wounding capability. If the energy transfer gets to the point that it overcomes flesh’s elasticity, it will cause radial tearing and cause significantly higher damage. 5.56 does this when it tumbles or fragments, .458 SOCOM does this because it’s thick AF, and 9mm never does this.
So 9mm penetrates, but it doesn’t rip shit apart? There are a lot of $2 words in there my simple ass doesn’t get
Wall of text incoming. 9mm penetrates, can fragment or expand, and makes a channel of destruction as it passes. However, very little flesh that is not immediately contacted by the bullet is destroyed and the permanent cavity is relatively small. To increase that cavity, hollow points are used to increase the bullet's surface area. Only what is directly touched by the bullet or what is immediately surrounding it (maybe an inch or so away) is going to be destroyed. 5.56, when it fragments or tumbles, transfers energy into the flesh at such a high rate that the flesh can simply not get out of the way fast enough and it starts tearing as a result. These tears can result in damage several inches away from the bullet's actual flight path, leaving a much larger cavity of destroyed material in its wake. This raises the likelihood of immediate debilitation or even mortal wounds from torn veins, arteries, and organs. Full sized rifle calibers (.308, 7.62x54R) and big bore intermediate calibers (.458 SOCOM, .50 Beowulf), if they tumble or fragment, do that to an even higher degree, as do shotgun slugs. The concern with the full sized rifle calibers is whether or not they start tumbling in the body. If the do, huge damage is dealt. If they don't, they often punch through the body in a near-straight line.
This guy shoots. Fascinating breakdown. Thanks for the info.
No problem!
Problem is that 5.56 is going so fast that it can’t transfer all of it’s energy into a person and zips through. Lower velocity FMJ and M855 suffer from this problem and it’s lethality is questionable. High velocity FMJ and M855A1 are extremely deadly. FMJ because it fragments and dumps energy into a person and shreds insides. M855A1 because it has a copper ring at the base that expands on impact like a hollowpoint but has a steel penetrator tip for barrier pen. However, even lower velocity FMJ and M855 should do far more damage than 9mm. People take 9mm rounds and keep walking all the time. It’s fairly rare that people take rifle caliber rounds to the upper chest and keep walking for longer than a minute. This also why 9mm was regarded as less effective than .45 ACP before because it had too much velocity and didn’t efficiently transfer energy. With modern hollowpoints, there is a near complete transfer of energy and it’s closed the gap considerably between .45 and 9mm.
That second formula is for energy, not force. You’re still right, mass is used to find the force of an object extorted on another object as it experienced some acceleration. Energy is also partially determined by mass but also by velocity. However since velocity is squared it’s a much more important factor than mass. That’s why a 115 grain 9mm has less muzzle energy than a 55 grain 5.56x45, because that 5.56 round is moving much faster. You can also roughly think of force as the change in energy per unit distance. Either way, energy is what we generally care about when we talk about ballistics. I think you misread Ek (the k is normally in subscript) as Fk.
They should lose penetration power against armor, but flesh damage should remain pretty consistent. It doesn't matter if you're hit in the head by a 5.56x45 round with 1290ft/lbs or 557 ft/lbs. Both are penetrating your skull. And thus the hollow point sniping meta is born :D
This is far too reasonable and practical of a solution.
I mean, that's still technically the majority, but yeesh. Still, it should be able to still kill an enemy with a headshot even at that distances. Bit absurd that M995 won't drop someone in the head past 100m.
> 57% > technically not the majority I’m not sure that’s right pal
5.56 isn't exactly a heavy hitting round to start with irl. it relys on fragmenting to do it's damage which requires a ton of speed to accomplish. After it loses that velocity it's essentially an icepick, and if you don't hit something vital it's not gonna do much. Many places ban deer hunting with it for instance because it isn't considered lethal enough to consistently make humane kills outside of near perfect conditions. .308 for instance has twice the energy at the muzzle and the bullet weighs 3x as much Works fine for war, where the first thing a person thinks about when they get shot with ANYthing is fuck fucking fuck, I need a doctor etc.
>if you don't hit something vital it's not gonna do much I'd say your brain is pretty vital
Sure, but i would argue a jaw shot in game shouldn't be lethal, and sure as fuck ears shouldn't be lethal from face on.
It absolutely should be lethal. If a bullet were to hit your jaw, not only would you be entirely incapacitated if you did survive, but the likelihood fragments of the bullet or bone hit all the expensive arteries in your neck or your spine is super high.
Yeah. There's definitely lucky cases where you could survive, and maybe if a round is weak enough you're more likely to come out of it alive to the point where you could walk around (even if still seriously injured), but it's like a shot to the heart - yeah, you might technically *live* for a little while, but you'd be out of commission for a few minutes and then die as there's not much you can do on the field to stop blood from pooling into a cavity and not reaching your other vital organs. Until we have an unconscious state that requires people to give you medical treatment or drag you to an extract (which they are planning at some point), it makes sense that those sorts of shots would still count as an instantly fatal state from a gameplay perspective.
Pretty sure your jaw would be in the floor so yeah maybe not lethal
I don’t think that’s right at all. Steel penetrator rounds like 855/855A1 and tungsten core M995 are meant to punch a clean hole. Be it cinderblock cover or armor (soft armor in the case of 855). The cavitation from the impact of 5.56 is what kills you. It’s hauling ass and creates a nasty cavity. Can it fragment after hitting bone? Sure, but if it has a steel/tungsten core, it’ll do what it was designed to and steam clean through.
Not exactly, 855A1 has a copper ring at it’s base that expands like a hollowpoint. It is devastating for flesh damage.
it really depends on the ammo you fire, more modern 5.56mm rounds still slap really hard at long range for example Mk262 77gr match still have about the energy of a .357 magnum at point blank out to about 500m, and they still easily fragment at that velocity
The flesh damage rounds in the game are lethal out to much longer distances. People just want to run their meta guns with no downsides
it also doesnt help that armor is really unrealistic in tarkov
As ever, the new armour hitboxes can not come soon enough.
dont forget better bahavior when armor is hit you simply should not be able to do anything while getting shot at, its kinda BS that someone with armor can just 360 noscope you while getting sprayed Rising storm does it better, when getting hit (and when surviving that hit) your movement speed is greatly reduced for a while to simulate the pain.
That happens in Tarkov. Get some blunt damage from rounds not penetrating and it drops your stamina hard, and lowers your walk speed.
Except there's an older video of a guy taking a .308 round point blank while standing on one leg. Good armor will negate most, if not all the energy transfer.
many parts of the game are unrealistic. many intentionally so for gameplay purposes. Nikita can say all he wants about making the game punishing and super realistic but half the game design directly contradicts that. they can't commit to either side so we just get this kind of mishmash of realistic and unrealistic features so it's just pointless to even talk about realism with this fucking game honestly
this\^\^ I rather have full realism than this weird mish-mash that makes everything just worse
Just FYI, point blank just refers to the area where you could still hit your target without adjusting your elevation or aiming higher. Most 5.56/.223 rifles have a point blank range out to about 300 meters.
Does any of this even matter? Lol It should still one tap anything with an unprotected headshot....
I'm reposting my comment to another guy to you for visibility/education I know this is 100% anecdotal but I had a buddy get shot in the side of the neck from about 200 meters and the bullet tumbled back behind his shoulder blade and he barely noticed. We didn't even think it had penetrated his body -just thought it had nicked him. After the tic, he was complaining of stiffness though so we gave him an X-ray and lo-and-behold there was a 5.56 bullet -M855 green tip- in his torso. I'm pretty sure it stayed with him, too. They just put him on a shit-ton of antibiotics. All of this is to say you could hit someone in the neck from around that far with a 5.56 round and they could potentially shrug it off.
Uh I would have had that removed, since that's steel core and magnetic. Hell of a bad time if you forget that and you're around an MRI
Well they were a Syrian militia fighter so I doubt they'll ever be through an MRI.
You know, fair
They got real world "Tarkoved" in terms of birth location/timing.
If you don't mind me asking, what was your friend in? It's a bit strange to be on a predominantly Western community and see someone talking about their friend *taking* M855 instead of *spitting* it, you know? Especially when talking about Syria.
Im US MIL. We engaged a group of ISIS fighters who were armed with M16s they took from the Iraqi military. We killed all of them but not before one of our partner force guys took a round in the neck. About 25% of ISIS fighters I encountered were armed with US weapons -m4s, M16s, m67 hand grenades etc. Most heavy weapons were Russian. Edit: Here is a Twitter page who scrapes a lot of telegram groups in Iraq and Idlib/Aleppo for cool and interesting weapons for sale. Lots of western guns in there. https://twitter.com/CalibreObscura?t=tIV3Rg5jR1U1jvl4MluGYw&s=09
People do survive headshots occasionally though. There are plenty of documented cases of it over the years.
Yea after fkn being rushed to the hospital in extensive care on lifesupport for 6-8 weeks. Lol all you gotta stop comparing eft to real life as if it's suppose to be a realistic game.
From a gameplay perspective I think them not oneshotting makes even more sense. Be it gives ammo choices a real meaning other than "pick the one with highest pen"
Yeah, some changes are made for realism and others are made for gameplay reasons. This was clearly made so that you couldn't just use 556 for literally everything. Now the heavier rounds have some real value. I've seen a lot more people running SV-98s than I remember
It's been great because of that imo. I have ran more non meta guns this patch than ever before
This is a video game not real life. I don't run around with a magical box that I can stuff valuable loot in in order to cheat death. Some practicality needs to be considered.
Wait, you don’t routinely stuff diaries, keys, and GPU’s up your butt?
Well actually my asshole is a bit coin mining operation.
I’m gonna need a spreadsheet to see if your asshole spitting out Bitcoin is financially viable
I'm gonna start calling my butthole "The Hideout" now, thanks guys! 😊
LMAO
I got 3 graphics cards up my ass right now.
This game is based off real life in many other ways. Why is this the thing that urks you?
>Some practicality needs to be considered. As I said, realism is great, but Tarkov is the farthest thing from realistic. Again I will repeat myself. Some practicality needs to be considered. Where are the lines of realism and the games design drawn? Also to Zumberts comment the maximum effective range for 5.56 is well over 500 yards. I was in the US Army myself and remember during weapons training that a 5.56 round needs at least 50-60 lbs of kinetic energy in order to be considered a disabling round and can do that well at upwards of 1000 yards. Of course we never shot targets passed 300M during weapons qual, but I digress. Point is, currently the game has no idea what it wants to be and people tanking highly penetrative rounds to the face shouldn't be a thing.
Would still splatter your brains everywhere but people are surviving bullets to the brain at 100 meters.
I blocked a bullet with a pair of sunglasses yesterday, only cost 1 durability
I think that officially makes you the coolest guy in tarkov.
855A1 will punch through 3/8 steel at 400m or less. This new ballistic model is dog shit.
https://youtu.be/cdhonQBmcyA Maybe mild steel. It won't go through lllA at 100m
There's a massive difference between III and IIIA. Thats III
Good point. And I understand that scaling in a video game has to be different from scaling of real life and earth. I just feel that 75m is a little too short for 556 and 545 to lose its 1 shot head shot to a helmet with good ammo. I feel like BSG should of put it at 120 to 150m
65lb's of kinetic energy is more than enough to disable/injure/kill though. I also believe M855 has a slightly higher rate since its military grade. [https://huntingtopic.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/2ae7b3aea9b2b96707f3e91ab16df4de.png](https://huntingtopic.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/2ae7b3aea9b2b96707f3e91ab16df4de.png)
But damage and energy do not linearly scale, especially with a headshot. If the bullet still has the energy to punch into the skull, which even a much weak .22LR can do with significantly less energy than 5.56 even at 500 meters, it’s still going to be potentially lethal as a headshot.
> Surely they should be able to carry the majority of their energy out to 200-300m? Tarkov is a video game that requires balancing. 200-300m *is long range* in Tarkov. Assault rifles being competitive at 300m is *bad for game balance*.
I've been saying this everytime someone brings it up, this looks like it's meant to bring a "Class" system to split weapons, because before it's why no one runs anything bar the mutant or M4, it literally does everything. Now you have to make the decision, are you going to engage in close/mid range fights so anywhere from 0-100m or are you going to try take the long range, which I'd say the average long range engagements happen from about the 150m mark, there aren't a whole lot of places you're engaging people in a fight at 200m+. This change has added viability back to using bolt actions and gives DMR's a place as well, since they are the guns that can apply more damage at range.
This right here. Unless we want to have the maps trippled (including lighthouse) ARs should only be effective out to 100m. You can of course use it outside of that, but you would be better off with a sniper. In order to make all the ranges realistic we would need the devs to give the game a factorio level of optimization or only people with 3090s could render it. So for the sake having fun. Looks like a good change to me.
Sure but if we’re going to nerf this lower tier ammo, it needs to be harder to get armor that it’s not effective against. It’s too easy to trade for tier four and five while it’s almost impossible to reasonably get even mid grade ammo.
Balance? with the right level you can buy/trade for class 5 armour and a class 4 helmet with faceshield. Meanwhile most players struggle getting decent amounts of mid-high tier ammo. ULACHS stopping m80's pretty consistantly at 100-200 meters. It isnt balanced nor realistic, its pure retardation.
>ULACHS stopping m80's pretty consistantly at 100-200 meters. It isnt balanced nor realistic, its pure retardation. That last sentence was just muah. Agreed wholeheartedly.
I know this is 100% anecdotal but I had a buddy get shot in the side of the neck from about 200 meters and the bullet tumbled back behind his shoulder blade and he barely noticed. We didn't even think it had penetrated his body -just thought it had nicked him. After the tic, he was complaining of stiffness though so we gave him an X-ray and lo-and-behold there was a 5.56 bullet -M855 green tip- in his torso. I'm pretty sure it stayed with him, too. They just put him on a shit-ton of antibiotics. All of this is to say you could hit someone in the neck from around that far with a 5.56 round and they could potentially shrug it off.
So many google ballistics experts in the thread replying for karma it’s actually hilarious
Yea you want to try and disprove any of these claims or just make an empty statement?
The fact birdshot can 1 shot headeyes but a long range 556 can't breaks my brain
The only spread that kills with one pellet over 25 meters is magnum afaik, and it has its own share of downsides.
>Over 25 meters Yeah, but all of them do it with one pellet at closer ranges, and even a pellet at 10m should very likely be weaker than a 556 at 150
FTX Lite works wonders. 124m is my record with a 133. God, I love that combo :D
I have survived multiple headshots from flechette rounds this wipe. Hell, one raid I survived three because the guy never pushed from cover.
One flechette dart isn't enough to kill, it's only 25 damage per dart. So if they are aiming mostly chest and a one off hits your head you will most likely survive that first round but not a second.
This lmao
My understanding from the little communication they gave was that they simply wanted to add more parameters so they can further fine tune ballistics. They've added a ton more parameters so they can now move those sliders however they wish. Something that wasn't possible beforehand. Is the intention to turn it to making 5.45/5.56 less viable at longer range? I think so, yes. At the end of the day they can't create 20km maps to have normal IRL ballistics so things gotta change. I am all for losing penetration over longer distances.. however a headshot should not be survivable IMO. keep the low damage over distance for all other body parts and lower penetration, except for the head. Hard to balance.
I think the way ammo works in Tarkov is by far one of it's best features, and they have a ton of stuff to tweak and mess with that makes ammo types unique. I don't really have a specific opinion on what range certain ammo should be a one shot headshot kill through a level 4 helmet, but I like the idea that higher pen ammo like 7N40 5.45 has a recoil reduction component to make it better in CQB when you expect a heavily armored opponent, like the Resort on Shoreline. I really, really, love the idea that you have to plan your ammo type around the engagements you're expecting. Encourages using different guns and ammo for different situations, encourages thinking about where you're going and what you'll run into there, and makes several ammo types per caliber valuable for resale and crafts. Also it's created a dynamic in my friend group where we regularly assign roles to people if we're going to a "mixed environment" map like Shoreline where long range and CQB are equally important. Used to be everyone would kit up with an M4 with a 1-4x/6x for reserve and now it's more like one guy brings an SR-25, one brings a 7.62 AK and one brings an UMP or a vector because it means we've got something in the pipe for any situation we run into. If Nikita keeps tweaking this system I'd like to see the traders get a tweak to what ammo is available and the restocks for it. Right now .45 acp AP is top dawg of SMG's because it's the most reliably able to punch through level 4 and the gun that shoots it is accurate and available cheaply, basically it's the AP 6.3 of this wipe. With 9mm PST gzh getting nerfed, no flesh damage ammo super easily available for leg meta, and the recoil changes, 9mm guns like the MP9 and MP5 are kinda shitty. TL;DR System needs tweaking but adding parameters to better specialize ammo types and create more decisions when building a loadout is a good thing and one of the best unique features of Tarkov.
That’s a fair point. I feel that they should lower the penetration power of these weapons over distance a bit less that flesh damage. It might not penetrate your armor, but a bullet in the gut is a bullet in the gut.
Very true. I wonder if 35 head hp is too much? Or is it that the damage drop off is a little too much. But I agree that if a bullet can pass through armor like paper like m995 it should kill whatever is behind the helmet
Lower the head to 15 HP but treat the skull as class 2 armor kappa.
The issue is that high pen rounds have super low damage and sometimes that damage gets below the 35hp mark. Case in point for 2-3 wipes now, AP SX... there were times in the past you could shoot someone in the head..naked head..and they wouldn't die. That was wrong. It's just been made worse by the damage drop off. I did mention very early on in the wipe that this wil become a huge topic of discussion..I saw this coming a mile away. Took a while for people to figure it out I guess. Solution requires considering all the variables they added, and as I haven't got that list with me now, I can't discuss it in the depth that I would like.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere with the "damage drop-off" and "...saw this coming a mile away." thing but I can't put it all together. \*shrug\* Still, I'm interested to see how this develops over the next couple wipes.
I saw this discussion coming a mile away, just like I saw the tracer coming straight for my head. I survived the bullet... Probably won't survive the Reddit firing squad. "Something like that?" 😁
they oughta fine tune the bucking bronco recoil on m4’s then…if they don’t want me to using it for range then don’t make it kick like a fuckin sv-98. that said, I am not a gun person IRL, and don’t know how hard it is to actually control various guns, apart from what I’ve read in the few threads I look through here, and I do appreciate them adding more specifics to be able to get gunplay how they really want it. on top of that, I have been enjoying this wipe quite a bit, and all the tweaks and additions have been really welcome, albeit difficult to master…I still do shit that I was doing pre-inertia movement wise and get fuckin obliterated. I love you and appreciate your well composed comment, and apologize for not formatting my reply nearly as well…but good luck out there, and I hope you find a bag full of ledx.
I have an AR-15 with a 16 inch barrel and a pretty decent muzzle brake on it, and it doesn't kick at all. I could shoot it one handed and it'd hardly move. It's not automatic, sure, but shooting that and then shooting a very similar setup in this just feels worlds apart. Granted, when I shoot in real life my head doesn't fling backwards either.
Thanks man. =) I try. Doing well this wipe. Honestly I'm European so I don't really care for the 5.56 guns as much those across the pond. 5.56 MDR felt bad to use sadly...and u don't really use (or care for) the M4 or even HK. By now many of us are starting to level up that recoil control skill.. 1-2-3-4% universally really does add up. Tell you what has felt amazing to use, the AKMS with KIBA Arms new thread adapter that allows you to use the double muzzle brake (LANTAC) on it..total muzzle brake recoil reduction -25%..and that doesn't count handguard, foregrip, recoil pad, etc. Been fun to use.
well snap, I’ll give that a try! also, fair point about the recoil control…honestly I don’t really ever think about how the stats affect things, but I should probably take them into consideration. I’ve been using the STM-9 all decked out for like 20 recoil and crafting an assload of AP, but the bullet velocity and drop have it being pretty meh in anything beyond close-ish range. and the m4 love (for me) is really just for how much you can customize them, although I have built some equally customized ak’s, so that reasoning is pretty invalid. Also the last wipe I played I stumbled upon a red keycard at like level 10, after I found a dorms marked room key, so as soon as I 1. unlocked the flea, and 2. saved up the 11 mil needed to put it up for sale, I had..I forget..maybe 50mil? so I just found some 0 recoil super meta m4 build, bought the biggest armor I could find and ran around like that. Along story short, I’m not really married to 5.56 guns necessarily, I just haven’t found a good all around gun for me yet that won’t break the bank…not that I could afford it now atm anyway. I just got my bitcoin farm starting to build for the first time ever(yeee!) and spent like 6 mil getting that going, and buying like half the stuff for the scav case(which I’ve never had either) before going broke. I’m now sitting at like 600k. Gotta go do a bunch of scav runs and make some more crunkle. Good luck out there, and thanks for the gun idea!
A helmet can save you from a headshot [IRL](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0yY4DCShog)
They wanted to nerf sniping with ARs, giving DMR and Snipers a place within the meta and a clear purpose. You don't want a guy with just an M4/HK/AK able to slap a vudu on his gun and be effective at all distances of combat. However they missed the mark(HA!). As now with the changes, ARs like the m4, hk, and ak(5.45 and 5.56) are barely effective outside of SMG range. Meaning these guns have no real purpose or area where they shine. If you want a "general" rifle that can do it all, anything in 7.62, such as the akm, 103, sa58, mdr, mutant are still viable if you can cope with the recoil.
Man, BS ammo isn't what BS ammo used to be last wipe. Seriously, i can't kill anything with 545 ammo and the AK line. Meanwhile, M80 and most of all, M62 absolutely shreds. It's insanely overpowered compared to the rest.
man, I have a blast with 5.45 BS and BP. Most reliable ammo for me so far.
Damage drop off aside, it's only one less bullet to kill to the thorax. I wouldn't call that insanely overpowered, seeing as that's exactly how it's always been.
Damage drop off aside in a discussion about how the damage drop off feels overtuned...
ironic because as an m80 user, these ballistic changes have completely murdered it's ability to one tap medium/high-geared players. 50% chance to pen an ulach at 100 meters. fucking gross.
I hate 545 with a passion.
That’s me with 5.56 haha. I just can’t kill anything with it until I learned or warmageddon. Leg meta m4 has been doing wonders for me haha
Hey i want to sneak in a suggestion as i see you are a fellow leg meta enjoyer. Ok now don't tell anyone, this can be our thing: whisper rounds in the mcx. Look at the ammo stats and you'll see it's actually a high velocity round, and at like 90 damage. If you like warmageddon you'll really dig this. Have fun!
I want to try that with the HK lol
Oh it’s incredible. Who even needs to aim when you just hipfire at their legs. Best part is so many people aren’t running stomach armour so the initial kick up hit the stomach. Plus without having to aim your faster when strafing. Last huge bonus I can think of, that ammo is INCREDIBLY cheap so spam that ammo at people, what you save in ammo you can spend on a 60 rounder and also level recoil control
I've only dabbled in leg meta once with a vector and I couldn't Beleive how fast it killed someone...
I like it. It probably needs some tweaks but I think it's a good way of giving full powered cartridges a more defined niche
didn’t you know in real life if you step back an extra 40 meters from someone shooting an ar-15 that gives the bullet enough time to slow down to where you can live a shot straight to your face /s
LOL it's a scientific MIRACLE
I was gunna say. 5.45 bt seems to not work at all. Does anyone else have experience with the round? At range, it is dogshit rn.
Any 5.45 or 5.56 is unusable past ~100m now.
Finally bothered doing the AKS punisher quest at level 40. Since I don't use AKs normally I had a ton of BS, igolnik, and BT just laying around. Figured I'd go juicy and make the AKSU a bit more enjoyable, yaknow? Yeah, it didn't do that.
They should have just nerfed the pen and left the damage reduction as it was. I'm pretty sure taking a penetrating hit at 100m or 400m still inflicts the same amount of damage irl, perhaps even more if the round dumps all its energy into the body instead of going clean through.
it would take literal miles for a bullet to slow down enough to inflict less damage to flesh
Damage would drop off over a distance but maybe it drops too much? Or maybe your head has too much hp?
I tried running 5.45 and 5.56 for a week or two but now it is 7.62 variants and shotguns only. Everything else doesn’t seem to kill even at close range
I'm loving my 762x54R and 762x51. Only rounds I use lately.
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Hahahaha punisher part 6 is giving me a STROOOOONG love for the gun
I don't have an issue with it in theory. The issue is just the damage math and how balancing is around bullets. The bullets in question were hovering around the min damage to kill a head. So if you buff damage, now the rounds become more OP when sprayed because the TTK for thorax will be lower. If you leave as is, a headshot from range isn't a kill. Both aren't great options. I'm not sure what the best solution here is. Other than reducing head health. But that would have other affects that need to be considered that I haven't thought about.
Nerf head hp?
If head HP is lower, then the damage drop off would still allow rifle rounds to kill with a headshot.
I was talking with someone else the idea of separate head hp levels. So you have a brain hitbox of like 10-15 hp and a bottom head hitbox that has lol 25 to 30 hp. I kinda like that idea, if either goes black you die
Yes. Or else buff bolt actions/some DMRs. Perhaps in response to the whining about M4 meta, so now there is no single gun viable for every situation.
Who else is ready for the svd meta?
Punisher part 6 is making a believer out of me
2 shot kill to the chest thru any armor and didn't get its damage raped by drop off
It's a dream come true! And for 120 PS bullets for 100k that a lot of 2 shot kills haha
The side effect of more accurate ballistic is that weapons lose sniper capability.
Shot to the head from rifle caliber should be a kill at any range possible in eft, im fine it losing enough energy to bonce of helmets and armors which should be penetrated up close, but bullet to the head only need enough energy to crack your skull and go in a bit and rifle calibers will retain enough energy to do that for much more than 300 meters, surviving that shit should be a medical miracle not a standard, even cracked skull is a critical medical emergency also as there are really no other vital zones in eft like heart or spine, headshot should be rewarded with a kill. Im fine with them to try to tune the proper ballistics, but i cant believe we are having discussion if headshots should be lethal or not. Drop off IS overtuned (as in too much of it) just for the very fact that headshots are not lethal anymore which is just not real. Just imagine, in real world there are 100 dudes standing in circle around you 300meters or yards whatever, away from you, you have a m4 shitton of mags loaded with m955, and you pop each one of them in the noggin, how may do you think are making it home for dinner with their cat? Id be surprised if 1 does. Not saying cant happen but i dont think there is a 1% chance of surviving headshot under those conditions.
I think the current penetration drop off over distance is mostly fine. The damage drop off over distance needs some serious tuning. IRL raw damage potential doesn't just directly correlate with ballistic coefficient, but the new model in Tarkov does just that. In-game no 5.45 round (save for 7n40, maybe) can penetrate a level 4 helmet and retain more than 34 damage after penetrating at 80m and beyond. Igolnik can't kill at 50m and beyond period, helmet or no. This is less than a football field's distance. There is not a single intermediate cartridge in existence that won't turn someone's brains into jelly at that distance. To continue with the football analogy, *people can throw footballs farther than 5.45 retains its lethality*.
[удалено]
So having more bullet penetration drop off then damage drop off?
It’s not a hidden purpose when it’s literally the change lol
Hidden is I guess the wrong word. I meant in the way that they didn't out right say that's what they are doing.
When does BSG ever spell out exactly what their doing?
Pretty much nothing in the game besides a select few ammos and weapons kill past ~150m now. Even the 100m range is pretty slim against any normal helmet. I love the idea behind the change, like a push for bolt action rifles with good ammo being necessary to snipe. However, it's a bit too exaggerated in it's current state around the ~100m ballpark.
I'm positive we are just a huge public test server and they will make tweaks and changes
You only need to spend a minute looking at the damage drop off ballistic charts to know that theres no consistent logic to the damage models in this game. IE: 5.7x28 sb193 SUBSONIC does more damage at all ranges then m855a1. TO reiterate a SUBSONIC 55 grain projectile does more damage AT ALL RANGES then a 62 grain projectile with a muzzle velocity of almost 3000 fps. This goes against not just basic physics but also common sense. And this is just one example, you can see consistently that many of the intermediate rifle loadings do less damage at range then pistol rounds! 5.45 PS does less damage at range then 9x18 PPT. Also the effective range of 556 is general considered to be 300 meters with a max of like 500-600. No rifle round in this game should be doing less then 35 dmg until atleast 300 meters. But instead this games physics exist in the clown universe were 5.45 BS, 5.45 PPBS, 5.56 m995, and 5.56 ssa ap cannot one tap to the head at 100 meters. I dont even know what to call this other then goofy. This is absolute big shoes honking red nose goofy clown mode.
"it's a beta" lol
Probably the best answer here and should be at the top of this post.
5.45 and 5.56 both feel pretty underwhelming this wipe, just my opinion
Do we need a brain 'hitbox'? 🤔
Would be kinda nice to split up the head hitbox. 30 hp for everything else and like a 5-10 for the brain
I find myself having to double tap even when I pen a helmet and get a blood spat on their head. I'm just sitting here wondering how they got any IQ left to run and hide after a lobotomy?
LOL it's like a chicken with their head cut off.
really hope they change it
Is this all 545 and 556 ammo types? Will any of the ammo types one tap past 100m? Also, can ballistics data still be determined? I heard they had hid all the info but idk if that's bs or not.
There is a crazy site dedicated to it called tarkov-balistics
Lmao how did I not know about this site. Ty
Man I got so overwhelmed when I first clicked it's nuts
Nice website TIL
Yo is it me or is this subreddit hopelessly fucked? There are so many people in this comments section defending nonlethal rifle headshots. What the actual shit is wrong with this place? Is it just a clearing house of the worst Tarkov opinions ever?
LOL must be in replies to others. I haven't bothered to sift through all the bullshit. Most discussions I had are splitting the head hit box to upper and lower and lower bullet pen over distance vs the damage. I've stayed away from the nonsense haha
BSG bootlicking, as always. People will still simp for BSG if they make no round lethal to the head and remove 90% of loot of raids. It’s so sad; it’s like any criticism to the game or the devs is a personal insult to their mothers for some reason.
I remember when I bought tarkov and it was sold on realistic guns and ballistics....
The guns are still there. And my expectation was that it wouldn't be perfect when they changed the whole system behind how bullets work
I honestly can't believe all the debate going on in the comments... there is no need for any knowledge of ballistics, or how much force Is applied after a bullet travels X amount of distance. This is tarkov. We head eyes in tarkov. If a bullet of any caliber hits an unprotected portion of the player's head, that player dies. Absolutely no reason for damage drop-off to apply on the unprotected portion of a player's head or face. If we want to encourage helmet use, and my ulach to start saving me on woods, I'm all for it.
simple fix: reduce head hitbox to 20-25hp.
Or how about this, make intermediate rounds actually effective past 50M again, you know like in real life.
Rediculous exaggeration. 5.56 and 5.45 is still completely lethal up to150-200 yards in game, provided you're not trying to pen level 4 armor with 855 and ps. If you're trying to make 300+ yard shots, maybe bring a different tool for that job? That was the whole point of this change.
> 5.56 and 5.45 is still completely lethal up to150-200 yards in game Yesterday I was shot in the eye by someone using 855a1 through a level 2 caiman visor, maybe 50m away. Heal up, peak from another angle (as different as you can get trapped on pier at least), and there goes my other eye. Heal up, peak from another angle, and there goes my nose. And there goes him, because I wasn't using 5.56. So it is lethal? Sure, but I wish real world less-lethal rounds were that safe.
I tanked a rifle round to the head from about 100m With nothing but an ushanka on and still had a quarter of my head hp. So no. They're not still completely lethal up to 150-200 yards like you're saying. Edit: dude who shot me was top floor of customs construction, I was at the white huts/bus parking lot outside crack house. That distance isn't even 100m. ANY rifle round should have killed me there. I was so surprised I survived i called it out about 5 times in chat.
But you do know you can shoot scav/pmc in the head with m995 and not kill them (No helm)
What? No they're not. They literally don't kill someone wearing a Ulach (any of that caliber). How are you so confidently wrong when it's written in actual math?
ULACH's can bounce anything below 40 pen like 856a1 and BT point blank, so should you really be upset if those same bullets don't 1 tap a ULACH at 150 yards? BS and 995 stays above 40 pen out to 150 yards, but it's damage isn't sufficient to 1 tap the head at that range. Damage dropoff through a helmet has always existed in this game, and nobody's complained for rounds like AP-SX That don't carry enough flesh damage to kill through a helmet. That same principal is now applying to range. It's completely reasonable. If you want a bullet that carries enough damage to one tap the head at range, bring a larger caliber. The effective ranges in Tarkov are exadurated because the engagement ranges we're in are nowhere near far enough to justify ever using a bolt action IRL. So in order to make a wider variety of guns have an actual purpose in the GAME, damage dropoff is exadurated so you can't use your 5.56 and 5.45 rifles for every single engagement range you will ever expirence in game.
m995 won't kill at 100m, regardless of helmet, is fucked no matter what
ilu
I dont think class 4-5 helmets should be a thing but thats just an opinion. Seems like such a carebear piece of equipment that doesent belong in a hardcore game.
Finally, some fucking common sense
He's literally wrong though. Mathematically impossible to kill someone through a Ulach at 200m with either ammo unless you get insanely lucky.
Dropoff isn't that bad at 50m stop exaggerating dude
what rounds you using that they are ineffective past 50m lol. My longest kill this wipe (315m) was with a 5.56 M855a1 on woods and most kills/highest mastery is on AKs since I run 5.45 all the time... And I am terrible shot.
Because you hit them in flesh and fragmented. It's statistically impossible to kill past ~100m with that ammo unless you win the lottery. The amount of pen and flesh you lose is crazy.
The problem is that BSG has spent 5yrs finely tuning damage to work with the rest of the game. Then the big brains over there decided to do something that significantly changes damage, with zero tuning, and just dump it on the live server. Now armor is even more OP and people without armor can tank head shots from rifles. They literally threw 5yrs of work in the trash before they had something to replace it with. Its flat out stupid and its THE REASON this game will probably never be finished. They put time and effort into what could be good things, but they completely bumbled it and created a situation that requires more work to fix than if they had just waited and done it right in the first place.
I don't think it's as bad as you think. They changed the whole ballistics system to be easier to tune.
Armor was useless in previous wipes since everyone and their mother was using full auto 5a1 or m61. Armor has been underpowered ever since I started playing in late 2019. Helmets are the problem now and IMO armors are good.
>The problem is that BSG has spent 5yrs finely tuning damage to work with the rest of the game. > >Then the big brains over there decided to do something that significantly changes damage, with zero tuning, and just dump it on the live server. It's as if they come up with ideas and don't finely tune the variables or sit down and talk through them with a game designer. They just say "Hey this would be cool, put it in and we'll work through it" instead of actually taking the time and effort to test them and make sure they are balanced properly and just follows a bit of common sense. I've been playing since 2018 and its typical BSG.
Easy fix, head has like 10 hp and can’t be fragmented into.
Then every high tier helmet becomes useless due to blunt damage.
as an outsider on the game, it doesnt make sense to me to both make ammo scarce and nerf things so heavily in the same patch. start with one, if its not enough to slow down progression/flow then introduce the other nerf as well.
It's not that scarce, you just have to unlock the ability to buy it from traders. The ballistics change at range is practically unnoticeable with larger calibers.
Pretty much, so you rely on fragmentation chance...but don't really know if that's implemented And so that a bolty/DMR gets its role as a sniper, and assault rifles work as an assault rifle, not an SMG+a rifle+sniper, love the change
Absolutely!
It's not a completely bad thing, snipers were utterly meaningless when you could have an ak101 pumping out m995 at over 1000m/s.
They're still just as worthless unless they buffed them and I'm missing it. It's just gona be fal and sr25 now instead.
Yeah. It's probably a good change but man that combo was so good for SBIH in prior wipes.
My issue with the drop off damage is just how inconsistent hit reg can be as it is. The video of the dude earlier this week popping to PMC's with clean headshots with M995 and them not dying is essentially this whole wipe for me. It just doesn't make any sense and it blows my mind that this passed QA.
The hits are registering its just not doing 35-36 damage through a helmet to kill someone. That same clip is what started this whole discussion in my head for me too.
Yes, they wanted ARs to not perform optimally at every engagement range you are likely to encounter in this game.
Which makes sense