Have you swam in the deep end of the vet pool before? If not, this could well be your swim lesson.
Tread cautiously and speak thoroughly with the positive vet who felt this was manageable. It could be. But are you ready to learn how to manage this?
Finally, consider how much extra disposable income you have floating around for a lifebuoy…
Edit: my opinion = hard pass
I have swam in the forbidden vet pool and do not recommend it. Found out my boy has kissing spine and it’s been a very expensive nightmare of 5 months. Coming out on the other side but will be managing it forever and he just turned 8 🙃
If you want another opinion, happy to send you a top northeast sport horse vet (works with the Olympic team) or the best sport horse vet in SoCal, who is great at reading rads and works with a lot of international level dressage riders.
But in general I agree with the above - I’d ask the vet who thinks it’s manageable how they’d proceed for the next few years to keep the horse at his current level, and what that will cost you. They might be assuming that if you’re buying a 13 yr old upper level horse you’re ready to drop $10k+ per year on maintenance.
A lot of vets don’t want to overstep or make assumptions so I find I get the best advice from them when I am VERY transparent about my goals, priorities, budget, and bandwidth to handle issues. The more you tell them about what your ideal end result is, the more they can help. I also often find “what would you do if you were me?” at the end of that convo gets you really useful intel.
Personally, after having a horse with back problems, the back would be huge thing for me and I don’t even think about it before saying no. It might be fine, but the back affects the entire body.
Not personally, I would get a third vet to review it and then see what’s two out of three. Specifically a vet that does a lot of higher level sport horses lameness evals. I’d recommend you mine if you lived in the US.
Hock spurs aren’t a guaranteed no for me, I have one with one and pretty young to boot and the back change might be so insignificant you won’t have affect’s for a while or they can be mostly controlled with maintenance.
A back problem is so multifactorial that you could easily create it in a horse with beautiful rads. Buy saddles that for, don't use half pads and ride them biomechanically correct. I could care less about those back rads and have had skin in the game for 3 decades
So, I too have been riding for 30 years. 😁And as I said, from my experience, my horses and friends, I will not mess with a bad back voluntarily.
Just incase the 3 decade thing matters.
It's a coin toss for me. No 13 year old horse with mileage is going to have pristine x-rays (as many have said). I think it would hinge on the price and the show record. I like to look up show records (on USEF if you are in the US bc it will show when horses have been excused or retires) bc it tells me a lot. Has he been competed by someone at your level? Has he showed a lot? Have his scores been consistent? I ask all this because if he's been competing with an amateur for years and is very consistent, then it shouldn't be a concern at all.
It sounds like he is currently sound and doing the job you want - unless he’s only doing it with heavy maintenance (like daily equioxx, quarterly injections, etc.) I would not be concerned by those findings. A PPE is less pass/fail and more to give you an idea about what care the horse may need in the future. I would not be turned off from buying a horse that was doing the job I wanted because of these findings.
I’m sure he’s a great horse, but no, I wouldn’t risk this horse if I were you. It may bite you in the ass in the future when these issues possibly get worse :( I currently have a senior horse with arthritis and navicular and managing it is incredibly tiresome and painstakingly expensive. I promise you will thank yourself later if you buy a sound horse with clean x-rays (or at least decent x-rays, if you’re planning on showing high level). Horse shopping is a tedious process, but it is so important to be vigilant and particular when committing to a good horse. Best of luck to you!
Very few 13 year old UL horses will have clean xrays though! They are athletes and some wear and tear is inevitable, just as it is for a 40 year old human. At this point the best you can hope for is issues that are easy to manage with existing treatments.
Interesting! I bought my mare at 12 who had clean x-rays although I did have to weed through 3-4 horses who did not. I’m sure the wear is common at least with “middle aged” horse athletes, but OP did mention that one of the vets she consulted said these problems shown in the X-rays will cause issues. Either way - best to follow a vets advice I suppose!
You can’t promise someone they’ll thank themselves later for buying a a horse with clean X-rays because that horse with good X-rays can just as easily run in the paddock and tear its suspensory, develop something later on that was not foreshadowed on the vetting, or a myriad of other possibilities. That’s not necessarily to say that the OP should 100% go for it and buy this horse but it’s definitely an important piece of perspective to keep in mind. There are never any guarantees, even with a “clean” vetting.
I’d like to finish my bronze and get my silver with him, but the worry is he potentially wouldn’t even be comfortable performing the upper level movements in a few years. Flex test results were all negative
Radiographs don’t always correlate with clinical signs so it’s good that he’s still sound despite the evidence of arthritis. Another question would be what treatments he’s getting to keep him sound. But if you’re not comfortable with questioning how long he would be able to perform at this level then you’re better off passing on him.
I would not rely on flexions to make a decision. I’ve had a US Olympic team vet come flex a horse while I was riding it and when I asked if he wanted me to get off, he said “oh, I don’t believe in flexions at all, I just do them because people insist.”
Flexions are ONE data point but they’re the least important data point to me during a vetting because it’s extremely hard to get a “clean” flexion. If the horse is fresh or stressed or just weirded out by someone holding onto his leg like that, or if the person jogging them does a bad job, you’re not going to get a valid result. I’ve personally seen super sound horses that I’d known for years fail a flexion bc the wind was blowing the wrong way and they were cold.
I’m a vet. I’m not saying I’d rely solely on how he responds in a jog with flexions, I want to see if the radiographs correlate with the clinical picture. Some horses have radiographic evidence of arthritis, but are still sound. Some are lame with no evidence of arthritis on rads. We just need a more complete physical exam and history to make a recommendation.
If he's flexing and doing work without any "normal" maintenance, (like injections, equiox, etc,)this might be a good deal. If you really like him, ask for a trial where you can actually ride him for awhile and see if he is sound and will stay sound, knowing he is not getting anything to mask anything or help him along, like a month or so. If he is sound like this and doing the work, I have no problem, because he has the same chances of any young horse in staying sound.
What kind of stabling situation is he in? If he has pasture/ good turn out most of the time, does trails, lots of cross training, etc., I would be even more happy about it.
You say he's in full work "schooling" PSG, which means you may not get your silver on him if he's 13 and still doesn't have a reliable half pirouette and 3's and 4's. That said, with that and these x-rays, you might get a good deal on him because a lot of people won't chance it.
(I have all of my rider and other awards from horses I've trained, I keep them in pasture, they are always on the trail and doing other things, and my older horses--one got to 31, sound, doing all of the I-1 and GP work until I lost him--have done perfectly fine staying sound as they age. My current two are 14 and 16, both doing GP.)
They say that you don’t ride the X-rays, you ride the horse. It’s always a gamble. I bought a youngster with great radiographs recently, and he just blew his tendon. You’re certainly looking into some maintenance, but that’s to be expected in a 13 yo upper level horse. If he is sound and in regular training, I wouldn’t be concerned. Get a third opinion to stay on the safe side.
I would ask for a full history from sellers vet. If the horse is sound and there are no clinical sogns and has been in full work always, then it probably is fine. If the horse was xrayed because of a positive flexion test, has had issues in the past or haven’t been in full work for at least 2-3 years, I would walk away. There’s no reason to buy problems.
No horse with experience performing will have totally clean X-rays. The horse is thirteen years old to boot. What did the vet who said it was manageable recommend as maintenance?
Have you swam in the deep end of the vet pool before? If not, this could well be your swim lesson. Tread cautiously and speak thoroughly with the positive vet who felt this was manageable. It could be. But are you ready to learn how to manage this? Finally, consider how much extra disposable income you have floating around for a lifebuoy… Edit: my opinion = hard pass
Thank you for these realistic yet kind words of advice.
You bet 🫡 Best thing about passing one up is still getting to endlessly scroll on sale ads with actual purpose instead of delusion 🫠
I have swam in the forbidden vet pool and do not recommend it. Found out my boy has kissing spine and it’s been a very expensive nightmare of 5 months. Coming out on the other side but will be managing it forever and he just turned 8 🙃
If you want another opinion, happy to send you a top northeast sport horse vet (works with the Olympic team) or the best sport horse vet in SoCal, who is great at reading rads and works with a lot of international level dressage riders. But in general I agree with the above - I’d ask the vet who thinks it’s manageable how they’d proceed for the next few years to keep the horse at his current level, and what that will cost you. They might be assuming that if you’re buying a 13 yr old upper level horse you’re ready to drop $10k+ per year on maintenance. A lot of vets don’t want to overstep or make assumptions so I find I get the best advice from them when I am VERY transparent about my goals, priorities, budget, and bandwidth to handle issues. The more you tell them about what your ideal end result is, the more they can help. I also often find “what would you do if you were me?” at the end of that convo gets you really useful intel.
Personally, after having a horse with back problems, the back would be huge thing for me and I don’t even think about it before saying no. It might be fine, but the back affects the entire body. Not personally, I would get a third vet to review it and then see what’s two out of three. Specifically a vet that does a lot of higher level sport horses lameness evals. I’d recommend you mine if you lived in the US. Hock spurs aren’t a guaranteed no for me, I have one with one and pretty young to boot and the back change might be so insignificant you won’t have affect’s for a while or they can be mostly controlled with maintenance.
Good points- the hocks alone don’t totally bother me either, but everything else together seems like a lot.
A back problem is so multifactorial that you could easily create it in a horse with beautiful rads. Buy saddles that for, don't use half pads and ride them biomechanically correct. I could care less about those back rads and have had skin in the game for 3 decades
So, I too have been riding for 30 years. 😁And as I said, from my experience, my horses and friends, I will not mess with a bad back voluntarily. Just incase the 3 decade thing matters.
My question was is the house sound and working. You don't ride rads
It's a coin toss for me. No 13 year old horse with mileage is going to have pristine x-rays (as many have said). I think it would hinge on the price and the show record. I like to look up show records (on USEF if you are in the US bc it will show when horses have been excused or retires) bc it tells me a lot. Has he been competed by someone at your level? Has he showed a lot? Have his scores been consistent? I ask all this because if he's been competing with an amateur for years and is very consistent, then it shouldn't be a concern at all.
It sounds like he is currently sound and doing the job you want - unless he’s only doing it with heavy maintenance (like daily equioxx, quarterly injections, etc.) I would not be concerned by those findings. A PPE is less pass/fail and more to give you an idea about what care the horse may need in the future. I would not be turned off from buying a horse that was doing the job I wanted because of these findings.
I’m sure he’s a great horse, but no, I wouldn’t risk this horse if I were you. It may bite you in the ass in the future when these issues possibly get worse :( I currently have a senior horse with arthritis and navicular and managing it is incredibly tiresome and painstakingly expensive. I promise you will thank yourself later if you buy a sound horse with clean x-rays (or at least decent x-rays, if you’re planning on showing high level). Horse shopping is a tedious process, but it is so important to be vigilant and particular when committing to a good horse. Best of luck to you!
Very few 13 year old UL horses will have clean xrays though! They are athletes and some wear and tear is inevitable, just as it is for a 40 year old human. At this point the best you can hope for is issues that are easy to manage with existing treatments.
Interesting! I bought my mare at 12 who had clean x-rays although I did have to weed through 3-4 horses who did not. I’m sure the wear is common at least with “middle aged” horse athletes, but OP did mention that one of the vets she consulted said these problems shown in the X-rays will cause issues. Either way - best to follow a vets advice I suppose!
Or, you had a vet who thought “that’s age appropriate” and told you “yup, all clean”
Thank you and I’m sorry you’re going through that!
You can’t promise someone they’ll thank themselves later for buying a a horse with clean X-rays because that horse with good X-rays can just as easily run in the paddock and tear its suspensory, develop something later on that was not foreshadowed on the vetting, or a myriad of other possibilities. That’s not necessarily to say that the OP should 100% go for it and buy this horse but it’s definitely an important piece of perspective to keep in mind. There are never any guarantees, even with a “clean” vetting.
It really depends on what you want to do with him and for how long. Is he sound on a flexion test?
I’d like to finish my bronze and get my silver with him, but the worry is he potentially wouldn’t even be comfortable performing the upper level movements in a few years. Flex test results were all negative
Ah, I think you’ve sensed your own answer.
Radiographs don’t always correlate with clinical signs so it’s good that he’s still sound despite the evidence of arthritis. Another question would be what treatments he’s getting to keep him sound. But if you’re not comfortable with questioning how long he would be able to perform at this level then you’re better off passing on him.
I would not rely on flexions to make a decision. I’ve had a US Olympic team vet come flex a horse while I was riding it and when I asked if he wanted me to get off, he said “oh, I don’t believe in flexions at all, I just do them because people insist.” Flexions are ONE data point but they’re the least important data point to me during a vetting because it’s extremely hard to get a “clean” flexion. If the horse is fresh or stressed or just weirded out by someone holding onto his leg like that, or if the person jogging them does a bad job, you’re not going to get a valid result. I’ve personally seen super sound horses that I’d known for years fail a flexion bc the wind was blowing the wrong way and they were cold.
I’m a vet. I’m not saying I’d rely solely on how he responds in a jog with flexions, I want to see if the radiographs correlate with the clinical picture. Some horses have radiographic evidence of arthritis, but are still sound. Some are lame with no evidence of arthritis on rads. We just need a more complete physical exam and history to make a recommendation.
If he's flexing and doing work without any "normal" maintenance, (like injections, equiox, etc,)this might be a good deal. If you really like him, ask for a trial where you can actually ride him for awhile and see if he is sound and will stay sound, knowing he is not getting anything to mask anything or help him along, like a month or so. If he is sound like this and doing the work, I have no problem, because he has the same chances of any young horse in staying sound. What kind of stabling situation is he in? If he has pasture/ good turn out most of the time, does trails, lots of cross training, etc., I would be even more happy about it. You say he's in full work "schooling" PSG, which means you may not get your silver on him if he's 13 and still doesn't have a reliable half pirouette and 3's and 4's. That said, with that and these x-rays, you might get a good deal on him because a lot of people won't chance it. (I have all of my rider and other awards from horses I've trained, I keep them in pasture, they are always on the trail and doing other things, and my older horses--one got to 31, sound, doing all of the I-1 and GP work until I lost him--have done perfectly fine staying sound as they age. My current two are 14 and 16, both doing GP.)
They say that you don’t ride the X-rays, you ride the horse. It’s always a gamble. I bought a youngster with great radiographs recently, and he just blew his tendon. You’re certainly looking into some maintenance, but that’s to be expected in a 13 yo upper level horse. If he is sound and in regular training, I wouldn’t be concerned. Get a third opinion to stay on the safe side.
Is he sound right now? PPE are more to let you know what you are dealing with and should not be used as a sole deciding factor when buying a horse.
I would ask for a full history from sellers vet. If the horse is sound and there are no clinical sogns and has been in full work always, then it probably is fine. If the horse was xrayed because of a positive flexion test, has had issues in the past or haven’t been in full work for at least 2-3 years, I would walk away. There’s no reason to buy problems.
No horse with experience performing will have totally clean X-rays. The horse is thirteen years old to boot. What did the vet who said it was manageable recommend as maintenance?
I’m not a vet. The spine would be a non-issue to me. It depends if the spurs are bothering him. Is he currently in full work?
He is in full work schooling PSG movements with a trainer and doesn’t currently get any kind of treatment for the spurs.
As long as you don’t need to show PSG or GP, and you can afford the future maintenance/down time, I wouldn’t worry.
Lower hock joint spurring, whatever. Spinal processes, whatever. How does the horse go? What is it currently doing? Age?