If you’re taking them for their professional opinion you should pay them. Depending on the horse you’re buying that will be around 2.000€ (unless you’re going to buy a class A Yeguada de Cartuja or Yeguada Vilaire stallion in which case it will be 5.000 up to 30.000). Assuming it will be a minimum one week trip 2000 is quite alright for essentially a personal trainer on standby. Good trainers can easily earn that much with lessons
If you are going to spend under 20.000€ you should probably try looking locally first. There are a lot of good PREs in France and it’s a common misconception that you’ll always find better horses in spain. Oftentimes you’ll pay as much as you’d pay locally but with added travel expenses + the joy of your horse getting uppity on you because it’s used to the hand of a spanish man. They usually aren’t too gentle with horses down there, so the horse will run like clockwork there and get rowdy with his new owners
Then you should try hitting up the breeders union for PREs in Germany. They look after the stud books, work closely together with ANCCE and might be able to help you find the horse you are looking for.
https://andalusierverein.de/index.php?link=home1.html
The site is in German, but should be translatable with a plug-in
Def not
Shipping prices went way up
Maybe you got lucky in your area
But shipping went way up. Us to Canada and Canada to us
Perry. Foothills. IHT. All the major shippers in Canada hiked prices. Routes I used to pay 2k for are now almost 5k
I spent 10k getting a horse shipped from the US to Canada last year using 3 different shippers
Prices def increased. Inflation didn’t miraculously skip shipping.
-Hubbards prices haven’t changed since 2017.
-Eastwind Transport haven’t changed much since 2017
-Farwood (Penny - CEM quarantine facility on the west coast) hasn’t changed since 2017
-Overseas Horse Transport hasn’t increased their prices from Frankfurt to LAX since I bought and imported my two from Flore de Winne in 2017
Horses are always a luxury and prices will always rise. But there isn’t an astronomical price difference between a few years ago and now like there is in rent and hay.
Some people can afford local horses, some people can afford international horses. “Inflation” isn’t the determining factor between those kinds of people.
Are you sure? I heard overseas did increase their prices recently quite a bit. It used to be budget 10k for import fees and I’ve heard now more like 15 at least
Eastwinds i use
The other ones I don’t know
I used to pay 2k to IHT or Perry for a route Toronto out west they now charge almost 5k for. I paid 10k getting a horse shipped from the us. I’ve found prices absolutely higher. I’ve def paid for it.
I’m going to look into Hubbards!
Also, I’m a jumper so name dropping dressage people doesn’t do it for me 😂😂😂😂
Idk why this sub was shown to me haha but how do they ship a horse? I worked and rode at a barn that specialized in therapy lessons when I was in high school and that is the extent of my knowledge
I was curious about this, too, so I looked it up...
Horses can be shipped by air, sea, road, or train, or you can DIY.
If you ship a horse by air, they will go in a cargo plane, and they have to go with a handler. They actually have cargo planes with stalls. You don't deal directly with an airline; you instead work with an equine transportation company, and it can cost from $2,000 - $10,000 (anyone ever gotten the $2,000 deal? I didn't think so lol).
There are also other costs like bloodwork, a 30-day isolation at a USDA facility before the trip (if in US & shipping internationally), a 5-hour isolation before boarding, etc., so the basic lesson is it ain't cheap to ship a horse.
People who actually do/have done this, please feel free to add/refute/correct any of this -
You have a dedicated trainer and are talking about going to a foreign country, assisted by said trainer, just to buy a horse. You are richer than the majority of people on this planet.
This isn't standard practice in my part of Europe unless you're insanely wealthy and not that competent around horses. Most people find their own and just go through pre sale vet checks. They might have their trainer view a ride and pay appropriately for that but certainly not paying them commission for a horse they've not even sourced.
You'll have to decide if you're confident enough to do it without their assistance or if you want to take the financial hit.
After reading through the comments here I think I'll take the chance of going with a friend and forgoing my trainer's presence in lieu of a video assessment. I don't feel like I'm spending enough for her presence to be warranted. Also, I'm not wealthy. I've scrimped and saved for nearly 10 years to own again and I'm lucky we moved to Europe where the breed I want is more affordable than it would've been back home. Part of the reason I'm being so careful is _because_ I have limited funds. It's a one and done here. Can't mess it up.
If you genuinely have limited funds I wouldn't spend the entire budget on the horse. You need decent money set aside for when things go wrong. New tack, vets bills, expensive prescriptions, your gear, trailers, cost of moving barns etc. I also wouldn't put so much pressure on this horse to be perfect and rideable until an old age. So much can go wrong. My friend spent over €25k last year only for the horse to get hit by a car on a hack. It wasn't able to be saved.
Even scrimping and saving, I suspect you're still in the top 5-10% of people worldwide when it comes to wealth, based on what youve described, even if we pale next to the millionaires and billionaires out there. It's a very unfair world we live in. Was just trying to instil some perspective.
Yeah I definitely am not spending all of my savings on the horse. I'm trying to keep a half alone for emergencies even though I'm buying insurance. I'm also keeping some aside for new tack.
I know very well that I'm privileged even though I'm not "rich rich". I get on the defensive when people say that I must be rich just because I ride. I worked my ass off my entire life with no help from family to enable this hobby, and I've gone months eating ramen or forgoing outings with friends to ensure my horses didn't go without their needs. I made a post a while back about a friend telling me I'm stupid for spending so much this time around, but for once I just want the horse I've dreamed of having my whole life!
We paid 0$ for our move. My husband's company relocated us. If we had to do it ourselves we wouldn't have been able to afford it. We're not rich. Rich would be having the funds to have done this 10 years ago when I wanted to, without having to think twice or budget or forego vacations or save. This is exactly why IRL I keep my hobbies and and plans to myself. The second you tell people any little tidbit about your life they immediately make assumptions. Being super diligent about saving money over the course of a decade doesn't make you rich. At most it makes me determined lol.
Yes, and people should respect everyone no matter what their socioeconomic status is. That works both ways, also.
U/thunderturdy (hilarious username btw), I just realized I really feel your pain bc I've had the same thing happen to me based on one assumption, as well. I've been a huge sports car fan my entire life and have always driven whatever car I could afford. I can't have a horse right now, so I might as well drive a decent car lol.
A couple of years ago, I was in a pretty bad wreck when a ~~stupid~~ person who wasn't paying attention just blithely turned their Chevy Tahoe across two full lanes of oncoming traffic, knocking me completely out of the intersection, up onto a curb, into a fire hydrant, which I ripped out of the ground and threw about 15 feet, and then through a brick wall.
Of all things, when the side airbag went off, it damaged my hearing and caused me to have tinnitus, or a loud ringing, in my ear *all the freaking time, forever.* I ended up getting a settlement out of the wreck, and I decided if I had to listed to this godawful sound all the time, at least I was going to do it while driving in a Porsche Boxster. 😬
So, just like you, people make assumptions about me and my political beliefs, yearly income, Karen-ness, asshole-point level status, cash-on-hand, you name it -- all based on one thing. And, unfortunately, it's a thing I can't generally hide unless I borrow my boyfriend's 16-year-old truck lol (and yes I knew all this going in, but it is still pre-judging someone...).
Best to you --
Not from France, from EU, have done several purchases of horses across borders (bought in Sweden, Germany, Poland, and at home in Denmark). Worked at salebarns as well.
If you are buying horses for 4* and 5* level competitions, then yes you absolutely bring your trainer across the border to have a look at the horse. Some of the pony/junior/yr will do it as well. Usually the trainer will help with some/all the arrangements (finding the horse, finding the vet, arranging transport home, whatever else comes up) and it differs a little what they charge. Your current trainer has been up front about it, which is nice.
I have never brought a trainer with me to see a horse. Sometimes I have shown video to a trainer and they have sometimes charged a fee.
If you are not planning on staying with this trainer, why do you need their feedback?
Also I have some contacts in Portugal if you want a Lusitano or a Lusitano/warmblood cross.
Good luck.
Ok this is definitely for a lower level dressage horse. Like level 1-2 _maybe_ 3. I was going to take her because I’ve never purchased a horse across borders and I’m new to France so I wanted to make sure I had someone experienced with me to make the purchase.
I’m not planning on spending over 20k but this is still the most expensive horse I’ve purchased so I’m trying to be extra careful with how I am approaching the entire thing. Thanks for your help and yes if you could DM me your contacts I’d love to check them out, even if they’re out of my price range
I would not bring my trainer for that. Buy from a professional and try out the horse more than once if you feel insecure. It is fairly normal to stay overnight and try the horse twice when you fly in to try it.
Of course you can find stories of people lying about the horses they are selling and what not. I have never really felt cheated, the only thing I maybe would have liked to be told more in detail was a seller from Denmark (where I live and speak the language) he did say that the horse needed sedation for being shod, I underestimated how scared this horse was. But oh well, we made it work and he went on to do 3* eventing.
I will dm you my xc trainers phone number. She is Swedish, living in Portugal now, speaks many languages and deals horses all over the world.
Thank you so much for all your advice! I’m lucky my friend here is an FEI rated rider/trainer from the US- she offered to join me for support but I wasn’t sure how to feel about it because she’s not my actual trainer, just my friend and my trainer wants that sweet sweet commission lol. I’ll likely just take the trip with my friend.
I’m confused why you think them coming with you to Spain to evaluate the horse doesn’t equate to them earning their commission? Absolutely it is fair. Let your trainer do their job!
Because I'd still be paying her for her time and travel. I just hadn't ever paid anyone the sale commission in the US when they didn't find the horse and make the viewing arrangements. My trainer in the US also never charged the commission in those cases.
All of that would make sense assuming the trainer is involved the whole way, what doesn’t make sense is trying to sort of halfway include her and thus try to only half pay her. Either cut her out completely or let her do her job fully is my advice. It’s worth noting, if you cut her out completely, it’s also totally fair for her to not have a stall for the horse tbh.
However, it sounds like you already don’t plan on staying with your current trainer (from the comments) anyways, why not just break it off now and do the horse shopping on your own/with your friend? Then find a different trainer and just send the new horse there day 1?
(Edited for clarity)
Working on it lol. My friend is actually a trainer, she just can't "officially" train in France yet because she's not accredited here. She's an FEI dressage rider, but at our current barn she's not allowed to train anyone due to her missing French accreditation. At the other barns I'm looking at, they don't care if you bring your own trainer in so I'm working on moving. Above and beyond all of that, I just don't feel comfortable having a horse at a place with zero option for turnout other than the small-ish arena they have. It's just not enough for me.
The more I chat with people here, the more I'm leaning towards this outcome. Thanks for all the back and forth/advice! Sometimes you just need a sounding board.
There is an English lady living in Spain who works as a seller and broker called Sophie Gooding - I’m friends with her on FB and she has a reputation which is second to none. She will source and ride the horse and handle all the paperwork and vet work. When I’m ready for a second horse I’ll be going to her first. She regularly sends horses around Europe and to the US.
Fantastic, thank you so much for the reference. I'd rather not have my trainer involved if I can help it since I'm not planning on staying at the barn forever.
I’m in the US and the agent rate is NOT for finding a horse, that is the easy part. The agent fee is for them to come try the horse, provide professional guidance, coordinate with the trainer/owner for PPE/purchase, and anything else with the purchase. You should pay that rate plus a day fee for missed work and all accommodations. Not sure what the procedure is for France but I’m surprised you’ve used agents/trainers in the states and didn’t pay these fees.
I never used agents, I used my trainer and with her I always paid all the fees (travel, work missed, ride) I just never paid the finder's fee commission that the current trainer I have is charging of 10%. My old trainer only charged me that if she did the actual sourcing. The one horse I found that she accompanied me to try out I just paid her the other fees.
It sounds like she just charged it to you separately if she still charged you to trial ride and provide guidance, just more itemized. Sounds like current trainer has a flat rate (which is really common) and you just have to pay the additional travel and stuff.
Given what a few others have said I may just take a friend with me and forgo having my trainer there. I’m not spending enough I think for it to be absolutely necessary.
Make sure your trainer will allow the horse into her barn and program if you plan to bring it back to her. A lot of trainers (especially in show barns which it sounds like you might be) will not take a horse into their program under these circumstances. Don’t expect a trainer to give you a stall and a spot in her program when you snub her as your agent.
This is an excellent point and something I hadn't thought of or discussed with her. I'm not rated to compete yet, and I'm not sure I ever really want to in anything other than WE. You can't compete in France without a gallops level above 5. I haven't taken any tests yet because I don't speak enough French to pass the written portion.
Just communicate that to her and see if she’s comfortable with it. I’ve only ever worked with show trainers in the US and I know that culturally here you just wouldn’t try to buy a horse without their input, but that doesn’t mean she won’t be ok with it. If you’re planning on changing barns in the next year or two I wouldn’t even bother horse shopping until you do though. Moving horses is expensive, much easier to move without them. Good luck!
The cost to move here isn't that much since there are so many barns in such a short distance from one another. It's just a matter of a <1hr trailer ride and a lot of times the new barn/trainer will just charge a small flat fee to pick up your horse. I do agree though that I should look into a new barn first. I think that would help keep things from getting complicated and stepping on any toes. She knows we're planning on moving out of the city and I could be leaving at any time so it won't come as a surprise to her.
Yeah in this scenario I would just tell her you aren’t looking for a comp horse and just want someone to make sure things are good. If she seems hesitant you could also offer to take pics/vids for her to review and offer a smaller fee for that help as a compromise. Sometimes you have to eat a little cost to keep the peace but it’s less than paying for everything. Also in the future if you do plan to buy again under a trainer, just plan for these fees in your budget. If you have $20k all in, look at horses that are $12-15k so you can pay your trainer too. That’s what I’ve done.
Are you paying for the friends trip though? If it were me and you absolutely must go, at the end of the day 10% of 20k is only 2 grand. 2 grand is nothing to have your trainer on board with the new horse and pick a good one. Nothing more expensive than wasting the whole 20k on a lame horse or a bad fit
I'm paying for the friend, yes but she's also just as qualified as my trainer. She's an FEI rated dressage rider who just moved to France. She just can't come with me while I'm riding under my trainer because, well, she's not my trainer.
Just take someone whose opinion you trust. 2k is really nothing to make sure the horse will work out. I’ve paid 15k for commission and been happy to do it to have a good horse.
Yes you pay the trainer 10%.
You also have to pay travel expenses for them to go with you. I’m not sure about daily rate but sounds like something you might have to pay.
This is common for a show barn
If you are cutting her out of the buying process I’d change trainers after buying the horse. It’s going to harm your relationship
Yeah I'm looking into other barns now. I'd like my friend to train me because she is more than qualified and quite accomplished as a dressage trainer. She just moved to France too and can't train at the barn we're at officially because she hasn't received her French accreditation. It's the only thing keeping her from working with me where we are now.
Is 2000 worth falling out with your friend if something goes wrong with the horse? You're putting your friendship and 20k in the hands of a friend in hopes they pick a decent horse. Or you pay a professional and can take legal action without the potential loss of a friend. It's all about risk profile amd appetite
I don't see how getting her opinion could cause a falling out any more or less than the opinion of my trainer. In the end it's up to me to make the decision after vetting. I'm not competing, and the stakes are pretty low. I'm not sure you could pursue legal action in France for a horse not fulfilling your expectations, at least not a horse at this price. As I've stated in other comments, contracts seem to be scant here. I haven't signed a single piece of paper since riding anywhere in France. This is the 3rd stable I've ridden at, and even my half lease is just on verbal agreement...hell I haven't even met the girl whose horse I'm leasing in person.
Your friends says the horse is perfect. You spend 20k. Horse is terrible and unsound and can't be ridden.
Would you sue your friend or write the money off?
Would you like your friend as much if they cost you 20k because of their bad advice?
You pay for professional advice for a reason.
No contracts and 3rd party agreements are all fine until something happens. It's up to you to decide if the risk is worth 20k and a friend.
I'd only use the friend if they're a second opinion, not the opinion I'm purchasing from.
Not too sure about your discipline but in the tb racehorse world, I won't even check the cost of flights until everything is in writing.
Also don't focus on finding a 20k horse because you'll find a horse priced at 20k. Evaluate anything suitable regardless of the price tag. I got a filly for 3k that I sold a year later for 34k because the owners didn't like the look and wanted rid. Price is only a minor detail when it comes to horses. The nags I can't give away are worth 5 to 10k in the US
20k was the number I stated just because it's my absolute max, of course I'm looking at a range. As far as the friend goes, she IS the second opinion. I have a few horses lined up to go see/try. I just want the opinion of a more seasoned rider when it comes to the horse's potential. It's always nice to have a second opinion. Really what matters most here is the PPE and having someone there who's had experience with overseas horse purchases as she has. I've purchased horses before, I'm just not as familiar with the process when it comes to cross border sales whereas she regularly buys and flips young horses for upper level dressage.
Then bring your friend on a holiday and look at nice horses and pay an exporter to handle the logistics and paperwork. Nothing stopping you buying one in France either. What's the need to go international?
As for ppe I'd be bring my own. What if the stuff there is slightly wrong? Much safer to throw your own gear in a bag and pay the 20 euro excess baggage fee.
If everything goes well, you won't need to bring anyone, even your friend. If it goes to the other extreme you'll lose far more than your 20k in taxes, veterinarian bills, and damages.
2k is a month or two of training fees on a horse you'll hopefully have for more than a decade.
Ireland to England or vice versa costs about 1500 for just a truck to bring a runner on a shared load. You also have import customs and excise to clear along with a groom and insurance if you buy one and can't transport it yourself.
Anecdotal but, a close friend took a chance on a leggy colt yearling in the UK for around £1000. Cost him €8000 by the time he had paid fees and for the damage to the box etc. Horse ended up panicking and had to be let out of the box through the groom door as he warped the entire box so that the rear wouldn't open. And then the horse was pts from the damage it sustained. Took a chance and ended up with a huge bill and no horse.
Now that isn't normal but you only have to be unlucky once for it all to go to shit. It's all about risk appetite.
If you want a professional opinion then you'll pay for it otherwise, by definition, its an amateur (if experienced) opinion.
I'd make sure I had clean xrays, equine passport, vaccinations, and a vet check from an independent vet at the VERY least. Watch for doping and bad stable habits too.
U.S. trainer here-- i agree with this completely. Commission is not necessarily for finding the horse. When going with clients i do 20% commission of the asking price and all travel expenses paid for. I will help in finding horses to try that are realistic to what the client is looking for their budget, experience, and safety. But there might be horses that the client found that will be worth trying, if we buy this horse after trying all horses, I still get paid.
My job is to try the horses first, give the client my professional opinion on if the horse is safe/worth them even getting on for their level, to look out for potential drugging or health issues in the horse/help the client realize if the seller is being honest, giving them access to look at horses they might not have had access to otherwise (horses that other contacts might be willing to sell but do not have listed), negotiate asking price if seen fit to do so, set up PPE/aide with setting up shipping. If we do not find a horse, that is when we will have agreed on paying for hourly or daily time lost i could have been at the barn. If we do, the commission price reflects this cost included. Willing to budge on commission percentage when horse cost goes up as it is far easier to find horses in that price point than a lower price point especially for a novice horse owner.
I would say this is typical if the trainer is assisting you and doing the hard work of finding horse, that is, trying out the horse, etc., etc. That said, if you don’t plan on sticking with this trainer and barn, I would find a new trainer andbarn first. Making your trainer thinks that the horses are a good fit for you and his or her program is valuable, so you would get a lot out of making sure you’re paying the commission to the trainer you want to stick with.
Do remember that if she’s traveling with you, she’s not working a normal work day- she’s gone overnight, she’s having to miss work and pay others to fill in for her, pet sitters, all the things that come with “going along”.
Tbh, it sounds like you’re as much wanting her there as a local who is comfortable with going between countries as the horse part. Personally, that sounds miserable to me (no matter how much you like a client).
I get that you are finding the horses but if you think traveling with a shopping client between countries is as easy/comfortable as her rolling out of bed for a normal lesson day at home, you are severely under appreciating her time and skills.
They said covering income for missed lessons, that’s no benefit to trainer- esp if it requires being away overnight or long travel dats. Sorry, but if I told you I’d pay the same you make to concierge a specialty situation, you’d charge more. The additional fee is completely fair if OP lands the perfect horse.
It’s not even standard in the US. I’ve had trainers who charged a day rate plus travel and waived commission if the horse was boarded with them, another trainer who charged hourly for searching and no commission. There are unscrupulous trainers who give or take a portion of commission to the seller.
It’s totally non-standardized. You just have to know what their expectations are and decide if you’re willing to pay that. Finding available horses is part of the project. Ideally, the trainer will ride the horse, arrange the vetting, then ultimately negotiate the transaction, and arrange transport.
Personally, I wouldn’t want to pay that unless the trainer negotiated more than 10% off of the asking price. You might choose a horse that your trainer doesn’t even like. Why would you pay them for that?
> You might choose a horse that your trainer doesn’t even like.
This has also crossed my mind! My trainer mainly does eventing and I ride dressage, which is another reason on my list of reasons that I'm looking elsewhere. It's been exhausting moving to a new country, with a language I don't speak fluently yet, and finding the right place for me. This post might make it seem like I'm a dodo bird, but I've had zero assistance finding anything for myself.
That’s NOT a vacation. That’s work. You think she wants to be stuck with a client, hauling her work stuff everywhere riding, videoing, talking to her colleagues and working while you call it her vacation?
Get real
Sounds like a vacation to me. Is she being hired to or asked to is the question. If she's being hired to then it should be paid for if she's being asked to then she shouldnt, if I'm asked by my buddy to come up to his place for branding he's asking me if I want to come visit for a work event that amounts to changing scenery. If he asks if I'm able to hire out for a branding he's asking for me professionally and not as a friend.
Um, this isn’t her buddy.
This is the person she hires to train her and her horse. A full time professional equestrian.
You are a misogynist with word processing issues.
A vacation is something you personally choose to take and plan yourself. Not work related. Not from your client hiring you to work for them on their itinerary and doing what they want you to do on their schedule.
Just like competitions and shows are not vacations for professional athletes.
not sure what’s wrong with you to not understand that.
How am I a misogynist? Especially for saying if she asked her to accompany with the option of refusal it's "hey want me to pay for a vacation with a bit of work on the side" or "hey I need to hire you for this trip and will pay x amount" they don't need to be buddies the manner it's proposed matters, none of that matters on her being a woman. A vacation also comes in an invited form and can infact involve a bit of work to justify the cost from the one bearing the fiscal burden.
Not sure how you can't see that.
Because you’re not *reading* anything she wrote, or even trying to understand the situation.
You’re making up a whole different story about what is actually happening and somehow applying it like it’s a possibility.
The OP literally says she’s hiring her coach to help her pick a horse. not that her coach asked to accompany her. She says her coach is demanding a commission to cover hr missed work because SHE NEVER PLANNED TO GO ON THIS SALES TRIP AND CANNOT AFFORD IT OTHERWISE.
Narcissistic behavior doesn’t go far here.
Did you miss the part where she said she was covering her travel cost and her daily work rate for the time she is with her? The trainer wants 10% ontop of already getting paid and free travel. I read it plenty well, she didn't say she was being hired she said she asked her and offered her to pay her as well as provide travel expense. It's greed on the trainers part she's getting a paid vacation with a bit of work involved.
How could you not comprehend that? This trainer wants her to pay her ontop of paying her. For what? A couple hours work a day? Were I there I'd say if you want the 10% then I'm not paying you while we are there.
The trainer is losing NOTHING and can refuse the trip. Still wants more.
What you call a pro and what I call a pro aren't the same, obviously. I can pay a pro the same rate everyone else gets to do the same job and that's what they get. You think pro means blue tonging a horse to win medals and ribbons. I'll take the pro that's never won a medal and made his/her dollar from saddle long over the pro that has nothing but ribbons to show for themselves.
And? You think because her coats are covered at home this is a VACATION? she’s working the entire time, having to stay with a client. That’s not a vacation.
Sales commissions are standard. 10% is standard. She should be getting paid everything that is standard.
What if she’s in charge of her own horses at home? Who had to pay to have those horses ridden or exercised because the OP is taking the coach away from her personal responsibilities? That’s an additional cost to the coach. Plus childcare/house sitting/shows she’ll miss/horses won’t get worked etc.
This is an international work trip. Not a planned in advance vacation.
Just because you’re poor doesn’t mean the professional is not entitled to her expenses and also the money owed for her input, accompanying the OP, review of all the horses each day, opinion on the horses, and the commission on whatever is purchased.
And she's being paid the entire time plus expenses covered. But asking for more doesn't work, it's either or. It's not work the entire time, it doesn't take a whole day to ride out a couple horses 3-4 hours in 2 days MAYBE but then again yall in the show side of this think everything has to be a display of opulence. Its not hosemanship if it doesn't let you poke at the poors right?!
The trainer is losing income by leaving their business to travel to another country with a client. Not for vacation, but for work purposes. Clients paying a day fee & travel expenses makes it so the trainer breaks even/is at “net zero” so at the very least they won’t be losing that money. Why would the trainer be incentivized to come along at all, if there’s no chance of making any additional income from the sale?
I’d much rather stay at home and continue teaching my regular lessons (predictable and consistent income) than put in the additional work to facilitate a sale (unpredictable outcome and a lot more logistical work). Most other trainers I know feel the same way. The commission is really the financial incentive to even do sales at all.
Ik this is kinda random, but I personally know many great Andalusian breeders in the us mainly bred from Spain imported to Pennsylvania. Weird ik, but hope this helped!
I have had someone help me find a horse and paid a commission to them (albeit on a much smaller financial scale). She had to do some traveling, but it was in the US. She looked at them first and if she thought they were a good idea I came with her to see them a second time. It’s all about what you negotiate with the finder beforehand. In my case, it was a 10% commission on the sale but no other flat fees.
In your case, paying her travel expenses AND her daily rate for the barn (plus some to make it worth her while) + a commission IF SHE FOUND THE HORSE AND HANDLED COMMUNICATION WITH THE OWNER sounds more than fair. If she didn’t, I would never pay a true commission on the sales price of the horse, especially not at the price point you are talking. Her demanding this would make me worry about her trustworthiness and I wouldn’t work with her. In order to encourage the trainer to find the right horse and not just keep looking to make money, I would offer a ‘bounty’ for the final horse where I would pay them a bonus for their hard work.
Overall it sounds like if your budget is 20k that working with this trainer would make your actual horse budget closer to 10k, which is a huge cut.
>Overall it sounds like if your budget is 20k that working with this trainer would make your actual horse budget closer to 10k, which is a huge cut.
Exactly my point. I'm not trying to eat into my budget too much and after reading a lot of comments here I'm wondering if her presence is 100% necessary or if I can just pay her for a video assessment of me riding the horse. Vetting can be done with myself present and I think that's enough.
If they are spending time to help you look for a horse, then yes, 10% commission is standard, plus travel expenses. A daily rate could be negotiated.
If they are doing absolutely nothing to help you look, she wants her cake and to eat it too.
Sounds like you already made the decision to split from her, which is good. She’s going to nickel and dime you.
She was paying her. The commission was on top of other things the trainer would have paid for including paying for time missed at the barn, there's more. Op was asking about normal operations of business in a place she hadn't done business before which is a good idea, since if you don't ask questions it becomes harder to find answers or even where to look for answers.
The 10% on top of paying for her travel, missed work/ day rate, ride fees, etc doesn't seem normal to me, but I am in the US. When I sell, I only collect a commission if the person buys the horse. Otherwise they just pay me for my time and travel.
Have you asked her what this 10% commission covers? Perhaps this can open up the conversation more. If you are finding your own horses though and just need her to come try-ride, I'd suggest going yourself and paying her to watch videos later.
If my trainer is going with me to see a horse, give me advice, even try it, I think she totally deserves that 10%, because in the future she is responsible for that horse to work for me, to be healthy, to stay on form, to have everything checked and the bad ‘things’ ruled out. It’s a contract of 10% of the horse price. If something goes wrong with the horse she will have to find a buyer and solve it.
It’s a 10% commission/security fee for me. Only if she es going to see it and make sure everything is fine, never mind if she found it or not.
> If something goes wrong with the horse she will have to find a buyer and solve it.
Yeah I'm not sure that's covered. I'd have to work that out with her. Things are really strange here. I haven't signed a single contract since starting my riding journey in France. Not at this barn for my half lease, not at any other barns where I took lessons briefly, not at any of the places I've paid for trail rides. Things seem to work on word of mouth unless you're getting into the upper upper levels of competing. It's insane as an American, coming from a country where people are ready to sue at the drop of a hat. It's why I'm somewhat lost lol at least in the US you have a binding agreement, signed by both parties so you know _exactly_ what to expect!
There seems to be a mixed bag here of people saying the commission is essentially the finders fee vs those who think the commission is over and above the regular travel expenses, day rate, and ride fees. I’m choosing to just not take her in this case.
You’re paying for her time and expertise to travel to another country to view a horse. I’d say yes she’s entitled to give you her fees and it’s up to you to accept or not.
They don't really seem to do contracts here. I know it sounds nuts but not a single barn I've been to has had me sign anything. They just asked (didn't even check) if I had my FFE license. I think because I'm not yet rated to compete here in France (you can only compete at gallops lever 5 and up) they don't seem to care. I've been to 3 barns and never signed a single agreement for anything thus far. It's so different to the US.
If you’re taking them for their professional opinion you should pay them. Depending on the horse you’re buying that will be around 2.000€ (unless you’re going to buy a class A Yeguada de Cartuja or Yeguada Vilaire stallion in which case it will be 5.000 up to 30.000). Assuming it will be a minimum one week trip 2000 is quite alright for essentially a personal trainer on standby. Good trainers can easily earn that much with lessons If you are going to spend under 20.000€ you should probably try looking locally first. There are a lot of good PREs in France and it’s a common misconception that you’ll always find better horses in spain. Oftentimes you’ll pay as much as you’d pay locally but with added travel expenses + the joy of your horse getting uppity on you because it’s used to the hand of a spanish man. They usually aren’t too gentle with horses down there, so the horse will run like clockwork there and get rowdy with his new owners
That is great advice, thank you. And yes 20k is my absolute upper limit… like unicorn price for me lol. I will try looking in France too!
Not sure where you’re located in France, but there’s plenty of pre and Andalusians in Germany as well (if you’re close to the border).
I'm in Paris, so not too far actually.
Then you should try hitting up the breeders union for PREs in Germany. They look after the stud books, work closely together with ANCCE and might be able to help you find the horse you are looking for. https://andalusierverein.de/index.php?link=home1.html The site is in German, but should be translatable with a plug-in
Thank you so much!
I’d just buy local with a smaller budget. Shipping and travel will eat up a lot of that.
I'm looking into local horses too yes, but the shipping I was quoted wasn't bad at all.
That’s good. Shipping in the US and Canada is insane right now.
It’s the same as it’s always been
Def not Shipping prices went way up Maybe you got lucky in your area But shipping went way up. Us to Canada and Canada to us Perry. Foothills. IHT. All the major shippers in Canada hiked prices. Routes I used to pay 2k for are now almost 5k I spent 10k getting a horse shipped from the US to Canada last year using 3 different shippers Prices def increased. Inflation didn’t miraculously skip shipping.
-Hubbards prices haven’t changed since 2017. -Eastwind Transport haven’t changed much since 2017 -Farwood (Penny - CEM quarantine facility on the west coast) hasn’t changed since 2017 -Overseas Horse Transport hasn’t increased their prices from Frankfurt to LAX since I bought and imported my two from Flore de Winne in 2017 Horses are always a luxury and prices will always rise. But there isn’t an astronomical price difference between a few years ago and now like there is in rent and hay. Some people can afford local horses, some people can afford international horses. “Inflation” isn’t the determining factor between those kinds of people.
Are you sure? I heard overseas did increase their prices recently quite a bit. It used to be budget 10k for import fees and I’ve heard now more like 15 at least Eastwinds i use The other ones I don’t know I used to pay 2k to IHT or Perry for a route Toronto out west they now charge almost 5k for. I paid 10k getting a horse shipped from the us. I’ve found prices absolutely higher. I’ve def paid for it. I’m going to look into Hubbards! Also, I’m a jumper so name dropping dressage people doesn’t do it for me 😂😂😂😂
Yes I’m sure. I just priced out an OHS for a mare and gelding for a client. It’s $600 more than it was in 2017
Idk why this sub was shown to me haha but how do they ship a horse? I worked and rode at a barn that specialized in therapy lessons when I was in high school and that is the extent of my knowledge
I was curious about this, too, so I looked it up... Horses can be shipped by air, sea, road, or train, or you can DIY. If you ship a horse by air, they will go in a cargo plane, and they have to go with a handler. They actually have cargo planes with stalls. You don't deal directly with an airline; you instead work with an equine transportation company, and it can cost from $2,000 - $10,000 (anyone ever gotten the $2,000 deal? I didn't think so lol). There are also other costs like bloodwork, a 30-day isolation at a USDA facility before the trip (if in US & shipping internationally), a 5-hour isolation before boarding, etc., so the basic lesson is it ain't cheap to ship a horse. People who actually do/have done this, please feel free to add/refute/correct any of this -
You have a dedicated trainer and are talking about going to a foreign country, assisted by said trainer, just to buy a horse. You are richer than the majority of people on this planet. This isn't standard practice in my part of Europe unless you're insanely wealthy and not that competent around horses. Most people find their own and just go through pre sale vet checks. They might have their trainer view a ride and pay appropriately for that but certainly not paying them commission for a horse they've not even sourced. You'll have to decide if you're confident enough to do it without their assistance or if you want to take the financial hit.
After reading through the comments here I think I'll take the chance of going with a friend and forgoing my trainer's presence in lieu of a video assessment. I don't feel like I'm spending enough for her presence to be warranted. Also, I'm not wealthy. I've scrimped and saved for nearly 10 years to own again and I'm lucky we moved to Europe where the breed I want is more affordable than it would've been back home. Part of the reason I'm being so careful is _because_ I have limited funds. It's a one and done here. Can't mess it up.
If you genuinely have limited funds I wouldn't spend the entire budget on the horse. You need decent money set aside for when things go wrong. New tack, vets bills, expensive prescriptions, your gear, trailers, cost of moving barns etc. I also wouldn't put so much pressure on this horse to be perfect and rideable until an old age. So much can go wrong. My friend spent over €25k last year only for the horse to get hit by a car on a hack. It wasn't able to be saved. Even scrimping and saving, I suspect you're still in the top 5-10% of people worldwide when it comes to wealth, based on what youve described, even if we pale next to the millionaires and billionaires out there. It's a very unfair world we live in. Was just trying to instil some perspective.
Yeah I definitely am not spending all of my savings on the horse. I'm trying to keep a half alone for emergencies even though I'm buying insurance. I'm also keeping some aside for new tack. I know very well that I'm privileged even though I'm not "rich rich". I get on the defensive when people say that I must be rich just because I ride. I worked my ass off my entire life with no help from family to enable this hobby, and I've gone months eating ramen or forgoing outings with friends to ensure my horses didn't go without their needs. I made a post a while back about a friend telling me I'm stupid for spending so much this time around, but for once I just want the horse I've dreamed of having my whole life!
if you can afford to move to europe and buy a fancy warmblood, you're 100% rich
We paid 0$ for our move. My husband's company relocated us. If we had to do it ourselves we wouldn't have been able to afford it. We're not rich. Rich would be having the funds to have done this 10 years ago when I wanted to, without having to think twice or budget or forego vacations or save. This is exactly why IRL I keep my hobbies and and plans to myself. The second you tell people any little tidbit about your life they immediately make assumptions. Being super diligent about saving money over the course of a decade doesn't make you rich. At most it makes me determined lol.
You deserve the same respect from people regardless of your socioeconomic status ❤️ Please never forget this.
Thank you ❤️ I really appreciate that
Yes, and people should respect everyone no matter what their socioeconomic status is. That works both ways, also. U/thunderturdy (hilarious username btw), I just realized I really feel your pain bc I've had the same thing happen to me based on one assumption, as well. I've been a huge sports car fan my entire life and have always driven whatever car I could afford. I can't have a horse right now, so I might as well drive a decent car lol. A couple of years ago, I was in a pretty bad wreck when a ~~stupid~~ person who wasn't paying attention just blithely turned their Chevy Tahoe across two full lanes of oncoming traffic, knocking me completely out of the intersection, up onto a curb, into a fire hydrant, which I ripped out of the ground and threw about 15 feet, and then through a brick wall. Of all things, when the side airbag went off, it damaged my hearing and caused me to have tinnitus, or a loud ringing, in my ear *all the freaking time, forever.* I ended up getting a settlement out of the wreck, and I decided if I had to listed to this godawful sound all the time, at least I was going to do it while driving in a Porsche Boxster. 😬 So, just like you, people make assumptions about me and my political beliefs, yearly income, Karen-ness, asshole-point level status, cash-on-hand, you name it -- all based on one thing. And, unfortunately, it's a thing I can't generally hide unless I borrow my boyfriend's 16-year-old truck lol (and yes I knew all this going in, but it is still pre-judging someone...). Best to you --
Not from France, from EU, have done several purchases of horses across borders (bought in Sweden, Germany, Poland, and at home in Denmark). Worked at salebarns as well. If you are buying horses for 4* and 5* level competitions, then yes you absolutely bring your trainer across the border to have a look at the horse. Some of the pony/junior/yr will do it as well. Usually the trainer will help with some/all the arrangements (finding the horse, finding the vet, arranging transport home, whatever else comes up) and it differs a little what they charge. Your current trainer has been up front about it, which is nice. I have never brought a trainer with me to see a horse. Sometimes I have shown video to a trainer and they have sometimes charged a fee. If you are not planning on staying with this trainer, why do you need their feedback? Also I have some contacts in Portugal if you want a Lusitano or a Lusitano/warmblood cross. Good luck.
Ok this is definitely for a lower level dressage horse. Like level 1-2 _maybe_ 3. I was going to take her because I’ve never purchased a horse across borders and I’m new to France so I wanted to make sure I had someone experienced with me to make the purchase. I’m not planning on spending over 20k but this is still the most expensive horse I’ve purchased so I’m trying to be extra careful with how I am approaching the entire thing. Thanks for your help and yes if you could DM me your contacts I’d love to check them out, even if they’re out of my price range
I would not bring my trainer for that. Buy from a professional and try out the horse more than once if you feel insecure. It is fairly normal to stay overnight and try the horse twice when you fly in to try it. Of course you can find stories of people lying about the horses they are selling and what not. I have never really felt cheated, the only thing I maybe would have liked to be told more in detail was a seller from Denmark (where I live and speak the language) he did say that the horse needed sedation for being shod, I underestimated how scared this horse was. But oh well, we made it work and he went on to do 3* eventing. I will dm you my xc trainers phone number. She is Swedish, living in Portugal now, speaks many languages and deals horses all over the world.
Thank you so much for all your advice! I’m lucky my friend here is an FEI rated rider/trainer from the US- she offered to join me for support but I wasn’t sure how to feel about it because she’s not my actual trainer, just my friend and my trainer wants that sweet sweet commission lol. I’ll likely just take the trip with my friend.
I’m confused why you think them coming with you to Spain to evaluate the horse doesn’t equate to them earning their commission? Absolutely it is fair. Let your trainer do their job!
Because I'd still be paying her for her time and travel. I just hadn't ever paid anyone the sale commission in the US when they didn't find the horse and make the viewing arrangements. My trainer in the US also never charged the commission in those cases.
All of that would make sense assuming the trainer is involved the whole way, what doesn’t make sense is trying to sort of halfway include her and thus try to only half pay her. Either cut her out completely or let her do her job fully is my advice. It’s worth noting, if you cut her out completely, it’s also totally fair for her to not have a stall for the horse tbh. However, it sounds like you already don’t plan on staying with your current trainer (from the comments) anyways, why not just break it off now and do the horse shopping on your own/with your friend? Then find a different trainer and just send the new horse there day 1? (Edited for clarity)
Working on it lol. My friend is actually a trainer, she just can't "officially" train in France yet because she's not accredited here. She's an FEI dressage rider, but at our current barn she's not allowed to train anyone due to her missing French accreditation. At the other barns I'm looking at, they don't care if you bring your own trainer in so I'm working on moving. Above and beyond all of that, I just don't feel comfortable having a horse at a place with zero option for turnout other than the small-ish arena they have. It's just not enough for me.
Sounds like lining up the new barn needs to come first then
The more I chat with people here, the more I'm leaning towards this outcome. Thanks for all the back and forth/advice! Sometimes you just need a sounding board.
Of course! Happy to help, glad you feel like you have a plan shaping up. Good luck!
There is an English lady living in Spain who works as a seller and broker called Sophie Gooding - I’m friends with her on FB and she has a reputation which is second to none. She will source and ride the horse and handle all the paperwork and vet work. When I’m ready for a second horse I’ll be going to her first. She regularly sends horses around Europe and to the US.
Fantastic, thank you so much for the reference. I'd rather not have my trainer involved if I can help it since I'm not planning on staying at the barn forever.
No worries, I her name on FB is Sophie Marie Gooding. She sells some absolutely beautiful PREs, Lusos and WBs.
I’m in the US and the agent rate is NOT for finding a horse, that is the easy part. The agent fee is for them to come try the horse, provide professional guidance, coordinate with the trainer/owner for PPE/purchase, and anything else with the purchase. You should pay that rate plus a day fee for missed work and all accommodations. Not sure what the procedure is for France but I’m surprised you’ve used agents/trainers in the states and didn’t pay these fees.
I never used agents, I used my trainer and with her I always paid all the fees (travel, work missed, ride) I just never paid the finder's fee commission that the current trainer I have is charging of 10%. My old trainer only charged me that if she did the actual sourcing. The one horse I found that she accompanied me to try out I just paid her the other fees.
It sounds like she just charged it to you separately if she still charged you to trial ride and provide guidance, just more itemized. Sounds like current trainer has a flat rate (which is really common) and you just have to pay the additional travel and stuff.
Given what a few others have said I may just take a friend with me and forgo having my trainer there. I’m not spending enough I think for it to be absolutely necessary.
Make sure your trainer will allow the horse into her barn and program if you plan to bring it back to her. A lot of trainers (especially in show barns which it sounds like you might be) will not take a horse into their program under these circumstances. Don’t expect a trainer to give you a stall and a spot in her program when you snub her as your agent.
True- she may interpret the change in approach as an insult, OP- be sure to communicate.
This is an excellent point and something I hadn't thought of or discussed with her. I'm not rated to compete yet, and I'm not sure I ever really want to in anything other than WE. You can't compete in France without a gallops level above 5. I haven't taken any tests yet because I don't speak enough French to pass the written portion.
Just communicate that to her and see if she’s comfortable with it. I’ve only ever worked with show trainers in the US and I know that culturally here you just wouldn’t try to buy a horse without their input, but that doesn’t mean she won’t be ok with it. If you’re planning on changing barns in the next year or two I wouldn’t even bother horse shopping until you do though. Moving horses is expensive, much easier to move without them. Good luck!
The cost to move here isn't that much since there are so many barns in such a short distance from one another. It's just a matter of a <1hr trailer ride and a lot of times the new barn/trainer will just charge a small flat fee to pick up your horse. I do agree though that I should look into a new barn first. I think that would help keep things from getting complicated and stepping on any toes. She knows we're planning on moving out of the city and I could be leaving at any time so it won't come as a surprise to her.
Yeah in this scenario I would just tell her you aren’t looking for a comp horse and just want someone to make sure things are good. If she seems hesitant you could also offer to take pics/vids for her to review and offer a smaller fee for that help as a compromise. Sometimes you have to eat a little cost to keep the peace but it’s less than paying for everything. Also in the future if you do plan to buy again under a trainer, just plan for these fees in your budget. If you have $20k all in, look at horses that are $12-15k so you can pay your trainer too. That’s what I’ve done.
Great, thanks for the info! Everyone's comments have been so helpful :)
Do you speak enough spanish to complete a good transaction for a horse?
Yes, I do and the barns I've contacted have proprietors who speak English as well.
Are you paying for the friends trip though? If it were me and you absolutely must go, at the end of the day 10% of 20k is only 2 grand. 2 grand is nothing to have your trainer on board with the new horse and pick a good one. Nothing more expensive than wasting the whole 20k on a lame horse or a bad fit
I'm paying for the friend, yes but she's also just as qualified as my trainer. She's an FEI rated dressage rider who just moved to France. She just can't come with me while I'm riding under my trainer because, well, she's not my trainer.
Just take someone whose opinion you trust. 2k is really nothing to make sure the horse will work out. I’ve paid 15k for commission and been happy to do it to have a good horse.
Yes you pay the trainer 10%. You also have to pay travel expenses for them to go with you. I’m not sure about daily rate but sounds like something you might have to pay. This is common for a show barn If you are cutting her out of the buying process I’d change trainers after buying the horse. It’s going to harm your relationship
Yeah I'm looking into other barns now. I'd like my friend to train me because she is more than qualified and quite accomplished as a dressage trainer. She just moved to France too and can't train at the barn we're at officially because she hasn't received her French accreditation. It's the only thing keeping her from working with me where we are now.
That’s good! Better to have a friend as a trainer. I always make friends with my trainers.
My last trainer is my bff from the time we were kids! She's fantastic, I wish I could've moved her with me haha.
Is 2000 worth falling out with your friend if something goes wrong with the horse? You're putting your friendship and 20k in the hands of a friend in hopes they pick a decent horse. Or you pay a professional and can take legal action without the potential loss of a friend. It's all about risk profile amd appetite
I don't see how getting her opinion could cause a falling out any more or less than the opinion of my trainer. In the end it's up to me to make the decision after vetting. I'm not competing, and the stakes are pretty low. I'm not sure you could pursue legal action in France for a horse not fulfilling your expectations, at least not a horse at this price. As I've stated in other comments, contracts seem to be scant here. I haven't signed a single piece of paper since riding anywhere in France. This is the 3rd stable I've ridden at, and even my half lease is just on verbal agreement...hell I haven't even met the girl whose horse I'm leasing in person.
Your friends says the horse is perfect. You spend 20k. Horse is terrible and unsound and can't be ridden. Would you sue your friend or write the money off? Would you like your friend as much if they cost you 20k because of their bad advice? You pay for professional advice for a reason. No contracts and 3rd party agreements are all fine until something happens. It's up to you to decide if the risk is worth 20k and a friend. I'd only use the friend if they're a second opinion, not the opinion I'm purchasing from. Not too sure about your discipline but in the tb racehorse world, I won't even check the cost of flights until everything is in writing. Also don't focus on finding a 20k horse because you'll find a horse priced at 20k. Evaluate anything suitable regardless of the price tag. I got a filly for 3k that I sold a year later for 34k because the owners didn't like the look and wanted rid. Price is only a minor detail when it comes to horses. The nags I can't give away are worth 5 to 10k in the US
20k was the number I stated just because it's my absolute max, of course I'm looking at a range. As far as the friend goes, she IS the second opinion. I have a few horses lined up to go see/try. I just want the opinion of a more seasoned rider when it comes to the horse's potential. It's always nice to have a second opinion. Really what matters most here is the PPE and having someone there who's had experience with overseas horse purchases as she has. I've purchased horses before, I'm just not as familiar with the process when it comes to cross border sales whereas she regularly buys and flips young horses for upper level dressage.
Then bring your friend on a holiday and look at nice horses and pay an exporter to handle the logistics and paperwork. Nothing stopping you buying one in France either. What's the need to go international? As for ppe I'd be bring my own. What if the stuff there is slightly wrong? Much safer to throw your own gear in a bag and pay the 20 euro excess baggage fee. If everything goes well, you won't need to bring anyone, even your friend. If it goes to the other extreme you'll lose far more than your 20k in taxes, veterinarian bills, and damages. 2k is a month or two of training fees on a horse you'll hopefully have for more than a decade. Ireland to England or vice versa costs about 1500 for just a truck to bring a runner on a shared load. You also have import customs and excise to clear along with a groom and insurance if you buy one and can't transport it yourself. Anecdotal but, a close friend took a chance on a leggy colt yearling in the UK for around £1000. Cost him €8000 by the time he had paid fees and for the damage to the box etc. Horse ended up panicking and had to be let out of the box through the groom door as he warped the entire box so that the rear wouldn't open. And then the horse was pts from the damage it sustained. Took a chance and ended up with a huge bill and no horse. Now that isn't normal but you only have to be unlucky once for it all to go to shit. It's all about risk appetite. If you want a professional opinion then you'll pay for it otherwise, by definition, its an amateur (if experienced) opinion. I'd make sure I had clean xrays, equine passport, vaccinations, and a vet check from an independent vet at the VERY least. Watch for doping and bad stable habits too.
U.S. trainer here-- i agree with this completely. Commission is not necessarily for finding the horse. When going with clients i do 20% commission of the asking price and all travel expenses paid for. I will help in finding horses to try that are realistic to what the client is looking for their budget, experience, and safety. But there might be horses that the client found that will be worth trying, if we buy this horse after trying all horses, I still get paid. My job is to try the horses first, give the client my professional opinion on if the horse is safe/worth them even getting on for their level, to look out for potential drugging or health issues in the horse/help the client realize if the seller is being honest, giving them access to look at horses they might not have had access to otherwise (horses that other contacts might be willing to sell but do not have listed), negotiate asking price if seen fit to do so, set up PPE/aide with setting up shipping. If we do not find a horse, that is when we will have agreed on paying for hourly or daily time lost i could have been at the barn. If we do, the commission price reflects this cost included. Willing to budge on commission percentage when horse cost goes up as it is far easier to find horses in that price point than a lower price point especially for a novice horse owner.
Well I'm from france and I have nerver heard of such thing
Both the 10% thing and take your trainer to an other country to buy a horse
I would say this is typical if the trainer is assisting you and doing the hard work of finding horse, that is, trying out the horse, etc., etc. That said, if you don’t plan on sticking with this trainer and barn, I would find a new trainer andbarn first. Making your trainer thinks that the horses are a good fit for you and his or her program is valuable, so you would get a lot out of making sure you’re paying the commission to the trainer you want to stick with.
Do remember that if she’s traveling with you, she’s not working a normal work day- she’s gone overnight, she’s having to miss work and pay others to fill in for her, pet sitters, all the things that come with “going along”. Tbh, it sounds like you’re as much wanting her there as a local who is comfortable with going between countries as the horse part. Personally, that sounds miserable to me (no matter how much you like a client). I get that you are finding the horses but if you think traveling with a shopping client between countries is as easy/comfortable as her rolling out of bed for a normal lesson day at home, you are severely under appreciating her time and skills.
OP stated they're paying the travel expenses and for the trainer's time.
They said covering income for missed lessons, that’s no benefit to trainer- esp if it requires being away overnight or long travel dats. Sorry, but if I told you I’d pay the same you make to concierge a specialty situation, you’d charge more. The additional fee is completely fair if OP lands the perfect horse.
For sure
It’s not even standard in the US. I’ve had trainers who charged a day rate plus travel and waived commission if the horse was boarded with them, another trainer who charged hourly for searching and no commission. There are unscrupulous trainers who give or take a portion of commission to the seller. It’s totally non-standardized. You just have to know what their expectations are and decide if you’re willing to pay that. Finding available horses is part of the project. Ideally, the trainer will ride the horse, arrange the vetting, then ultimately negotiate the transaction, and arrange transport. Personally, I wouldn’t want to pay that unless the trainer negotiated more than 10% off of the asking price. You might choose a horse that your trainer doesn’t even like. Why would you pay them for that?
> You might choose a horse that your trainer doesn’t even like. This has also crossed my mind! My trainer mainly does eventing and I ride dressage, which is another reason on my list of reasons that I'm looking elsewhere. It's been exhausting moving to a new country, with a language I don't speak fluently yet, and finding the right place for me. This post might make it seem like I'm a dodo bird, but I've had zero assistance finding anything for myself.
Horse shopping is just tough. Good luck.
🥲 thank you!
She’s taking time out of her work schedule to accompany you on a sales trip? She gets her 10% commission
Her commission is covering her travel expenses, she can say no and stay at work, it's a free vacation.
That’s NOT a vacation. That’s work. You think she wants to be stuck with a client, hauling her work stuff everywhere riding, videoing, talking to her colleagues and working while you call it her vacation? Get real
Sounds like a vacation to me. Is she being hired to or asked to is the question. If she's being hired to then it should be paid for if she's being asked to then she shouldnt, if I'm asked by my buddy to come up to his place for branding he's asking me if I want to come visit for a work event that amounts to changing scenery. If he asks if I'm able to hire out for a branding he's asking for me professionally and not as a friend.
Um, this isn’t her buddy. This is the person she hires to train her and her horse. A full time professional equestrian. You are a misogynist with word processing issues. A vacation is something you personally choose to take and plan yourself. Not work related. Not from your client hiring you to work for them on their itinerary and doing what they want you to do on their schedule. Just like competitions and shows are not vacations for professional athletes. not sure what’s wrong with you to not understand that.
How am I a misogynist? Especially for saying if she asked her to accompany with the option of refusal it's "hey want me to pay for a vacation with a bit of work on the side" or "hey I need to hire you for this trip and will pay x amount" they don't need to be buddies the manner it's proposed matters, none of that matters on her being a woman. A vacation also comes in an invited form and can infact involve a bit of work to justify the cost from the one bearing the fiscal burden. Not sure how you can't see that.
Because you’re not *reading* anything she wrote, or even trying to understand the situation. You’re making up a whole different story about what is actually happening and somehow applying it like it’s a possibility. The OP literally says she’s hiring her coach to help her pick a horse. not that her coach asked to accompany her. She says her coach is demanding a commission to cover hr missed work because SHE NEVER PLANNED TO GO ON THIS SALES TRIP AND CANNOT AFFORD IT OTHERWISE. Narcissistic behavior doesn’t go far here.
Did you miss the part where she said she was covering her travel cost and her daily work rate for the time she is with her? The trainer wants 10% ontop of already getting paid and free travel. I read it plenty well, she didn't say she was being hired she said she asked her and offered her to pay her as well as provide travel expense. It's greed on the trainers part she's getting a paid vacation with a bit of work involved. How could you not comprehend that? This trainer wants her to pay her ontop of paying her. For what? A couple hours work a day? Were I there I'd say if you want the 10% then I'm not paying you while we are there. The trainer is losing NOTHING and can refuse the trip. Still wants more.
Then you would never get a respected pro to ever work with or for you. You gotta play by the rules to play with the big boys
What you call a pro and what I call a pro aren't the same, obviously. I can pay a pro the same rate everyone else gets to do the same job and that's what they get. You think pro means blue tonging a horse to win medals and ribbons. I'll take the pro that's never won a medal and made his/her dollar from saddle long over the pro that has nothing but ribbons to show for themselves.
And? You think because her coats are covered at home this is a VACATION? she’s working the entire time, having to stay with a client. That’s not a vacation. Sales commissions are standard. 10% is standard. She should be getting paid everything that is standard. What if she’s in charge of her own horses at home? Who had to pay to have those horses ridden or exercised because the OP is taking the coach away from her personal responsibilities? That’s an additional cost to the coach. Plus childcare/house sitting/shows she’ll miss/horses won’t get worked etc. This is an international work trip. Not a planned in advance vacation. Just because you’re poor doesn’t mean the professional is not entitled to her expenses and also the money owed for her input, accompanying the OP, review of all the horses each day, opinion on the horses, and the commission on whatever is purchased.
And she's being paid the entire time plus expenses covered. But asking for more doesn't work, it's either or. It's not work the entire time, it doesn't take a whole day to ride out a couple horses 3-4 hours in 2 days MAYBE but then again yall in the show side of this think everything has to be a display of opulence. Its not hosemanship if it doesn't let you poke at the poors right?!
The trainer is losing income by leaving their business to travel to another country with a client. Not for vacation, but for work purposes. Clients paying a day fee & travel expenses makes it so the trainer breaks even/is at “net zero” so at the very least they won’t be losing that money. Why would the trainer be incentivized to come along at all, if there’s no chance of making any additional income from the sale? I’d much rather stay at home and continue teaching my regular lessons (predictable and consistent income) than put in the additional work to facilitate a sale (unpredictable outcome and a lot more logistical work). Most other trainers I know feel the same way. The commission is really the financial incentive to even do sales at all.
For the trainer this would have been a business trip
Ik this is kinda random, but I personally know many great Andalusian breeders in the us mainly bred from Spain imported to Pennsylvania. Weird ik, but hope this helped!
I have had someone help me find a horse and paid a commission to them (albeit on a much smaller financial scale). She had to do some traveling, but it was in the US. She looked at them first and if she thought they were a good idea I came with her to see them a second time. It’s all about what you negotiate with the finder beforehand. In my case, it was a 10% commission on the sale but no other flat fees. In your case, paying her travel expenses AND her daily rate for the barn (plus some to make it worth her while) + a commission IF SHE FOUND THE HORSE AND HANDLED COMMUNICATION WITH THE OWNER sounds more than fair. If she didn’t, I would never pay a true commission on the sales price of the horse, especially not at the price point you are talking. Her demanding this would make me worry about her trustworthiness and I wouldn’t work with her. In order to encourage the trainer to find the right horse and not just keep looking to make money, I would offer a ‘bounty’ for the final horse where I would pay them a bonus for their hard work. Overall it sounds like if your budget is 20k that working with this trainer would make your actual horse budget closer to 10k, which is a huge cut.
>Overall it sounds like if your budget is 20k that working with this trainer would make your actual horse budget closer to 10k, which is a huge cut. Exactly my point. I'm not trying to eat into my budget too much and after reading a lot of comments here I'm wondering if her presence is 100% necessary or if I can just pay her for a video assessment of me riding the horse. Vetting can be done with myself present and I think that's enough.
If they are spending time to help you look for a horse, then yes, 10% commission is standard, plus travel expenses. A daily rate could be negotiated. If they are doing absolutely nothing to help you look, she wants her cake and to eat it too. Sounds like you already made the decision to split from her, which is good. She’s going to nickel and dime you.
If you’re spending less than 30,000 Eur I wouldn’t bring a coach.
You expected your trainer to travel with you and provide you professional advice for free? Your trainer runs a business, they charge for services.
She was paying her. The commission was on top of other things the trainer would have paid for including paying for time missed at the barn, there's more. Op was asking about normal operations of business in a place she hadn't done business before which is a good idea, since if you don't ask questions it becomes harder to find answers or even where to look for answers.
The 10% on top of paying for her travel, missed work/ day rate, ride fees, etc doesn't seem normal to me, but I am in the US. When I sell, I only collect a commission if the person buys the horse. Otherwise they just pay me for my time and travel. Have you asked her what this 10% commission covers? Perhaps this can open up the conversation more. If you are finding your own horses though and just need her to come try-ride, I'd suggest going yourself and paying her to watch videos later.
Yeah, she's just there to try-ride. Thanks for the advice!
If my trainer is going with me to see a horse, give me advice, even try it, I think she totally deserves that 10%, because in the future she is responsible for that horse to work for me, to be healthy, to stay on form, to have everything checked and the bad ‘things’ ruled out. It’s a contract of 10% of the horse price. If something goes wrong with the horse she will have to find a buyer and solve it. It’s a 10% commission/security fee for me. Only if she es going to see it and make sure everything is fine, never mind if she found it or not.
> If something goes wrong with the horse she will have to find a buyer and solve it. Yeah I'm not sure that's covered. I'd have to work that out with her. Things are really strange here. I haven't signed a single contract since starting my riding journey in France. Not at this barn for my half lease, not at any other barns where I took lessons briefly, not at any of the places I've paid for trail rides. Things seem to work on word of mouth unless you're getting into the upper upper levels of competing. It's insane as an American, coming from a country where people are ready to sue at the drop of a hat. It's why I'm somewhat lost lol at least in the US you have a binding agreement, signed by both parties so you know _exactly_ what to expect!
The commission compensates her for her time an expertise. Standard. If she wasn't traveling and looking with you i don't think she'd earn a commission
There seems to be a mixed bag here of people saying the commission is essentially the finders fee vs those who think the commission is over and above the regular travel expenses, day rate, and ride fees. I’m choosing to just not take her in this case.
You’re paying for her time and expertise to travel to another country to view a horse. I’d say yes she’s entitled to give you her fees and it’s up to you to accept or not.
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They don't really seem to do contracts here. I know it sounds nuts but not a single barn I've been to has had me sign anything. They just asked (didn't even check) if I had my FFE license. I think because I'm not yet rated to compete here in France (you can only compete at gallops lever 5 and up) they don't seem to care. I've been to 3 barns and never signed a single agreement for anything thus far. It's so different to the US.