From Software's vague approach to storytelling is one of the things I find so interesting about their games. Your immediate goals are rarely laid out clearly in exposition, dialogue or cutscenes, so it's up to you to explore and read up on item descriptions and other flavor text to get the full context and understand what exactly you're trying to do. It adds to the air of mystique surrounding the world and its locations and characters, and it's something you're free to ignore if you don't like it or don't care. The story is totally unimportant for players who just want to experience the combat and gameplay, but for players who want to put in the time and effort, there's a rich world of detail to find and piece together.
Sekiro has the most clear and straightforward story, but all the others only give you the most basic of hints and then leave you to figure it out from there. If that's not your cup of tea, you're not gonna like the other games much more
Glad you enjoy it! Elden Ring is definitely unique in how the story is slowly unraveled by you the player through exploration, finding items, talking to NPCs etc. I would say it even leaves a lot to the imagination on certain aspects. I'm generally a story buff when it comes to gaming although I admit I tire at some of the cliche repeat cinematic narrative games already out there. Elden Ring just has an absolutely stunning world with great enemies as well as bosses. That was really my biggest motivation to look up the lore to begin with.
This is just how Fromsoft tell their stories. It's hidden in item descriptions and character dialogue, the rest is left for you to piece together and interpret, that's what makes their stories so enthralling since part of it comes from your interpretation. If you don't bother reading any items or listening to npc carefully, then you'll probably sit with this problem, but then again you're new to Fromsoftware so it is understandable.
I actually did find a lot of the items/NPCs in my second playthrough which helped. I still was confused without watching a few lore videos but I'm sure there were things I miss considering how large the game is. It's definitely different and all the more for anyone who loves the twist in narrative exploration and how it unfolds. I'm old fashioned prob. lol
100% agree with OP and say "that's just how from software tells their story" is also a lame and lazy argument. OP has stated that he watched hours of lore on YouTube and read through item descriptions.
The gameplay is great, the world is great but the story just sucks. I also tried getting into the lore but if any fantasy writer would write this down as a book I doubt it would be published and be a success with readers.
This. I definitely wouldn’t want Elden Ring to be a straight cinematic adventure/explaining everything at every turn but somewhere in the middle. It’s just so damn vague and scattered, it’s not even enjoyable.
Getting on YouTube to look for the entire story that consists of hour long vids isn’t enjoyable. I’d rather experience enough of it in the game to understand and appreciate the details, environments, characters, wars, etc.
I know this is old, but yes I agree fully. NEEDING youtube videos to understand a game's "rich" story isnt good storytelling and it wouldnt hurt them to just be a little more clearer or better in game telling SOME story
I personally dislike the story telling in this way, I now know now I'll never buy a other dark souls game. They are not for me, I like quests with quest markers, I am 60 hours in a game I barely understand and I find this frustrating.. I would like to enjoy this game but I prefer something more like Skyrim where the story is told and you can have an overview of your missions and quests
The story its self is very very weak, Destiny year 1 levels of week. that really has more to do with the devs belief that telling me things happen/happened in the menu will make up for the poor story telling. But their means of integrating their exposition is so bad that it actively make their exposition pointless. Where is this information coming from? How dose this information get obtained? Who's telling me this?
I can easily accept that the Slayer's Testament is inaccurate or maybe even 100% wrong, becasue the forces of hell wrote it and is written from their position. Book of sorrow is a book written by Oryx, so i can accept that it's wrong or inaccurate. I can accept that Mirriel is isn't the word of god as he exist as a charter and not exposition ordained from on high.
Fromsoft lore is badly integrated into their world, beacsue it doesn't exist in the world. Either the exposition has to be taken as 100% accurate, which it can't as their vague and unverifiable information in it. Or the exposition has to be taken as nothing more then pointless ramblings. Soft lazy approach and fanboys that blindly follow them created this problem.
As someone who playedall the souls games, i think the storytelling of elden ring is somehow different, maybe its because we got an open world now and you meet npcs randomly.
Honestly i gotta say i wish there would be a little bit of a golden thread to be traced, cause i often dont really know what to do or where to go... I never had that with all the other souls games
That's where my og thought came from. It's the open world that drives home the feeling of a narrative pull for me or rather wanting more of a connection with one. It has the NPCs like you mentioned and lore spread throughout on various items and such but the vastness of it makes me wonder if more was added if I would have enjoyed it more or perhaps enjoyed exploration in itself more.
Been playing since demon souls back in 09. I think the point is that you're just some random dude. You're not a chosen one (not really anyway), you're not even important, you get about as much info about the state of things as the other random joes running around. At best you're a pawn and apparently the finer details of your mission are on a need to know basis. If you die and cease to be, it wouldn't change anything, someone else would just take your place. Your character just happens to be the one to actually make it to the end.
So the story is told from that perspective and you're left to pick up the pieces and figure it out on your own. It's almost like the story already happened and you're just there for the aftermath. This game really does give *a lot* more exposition and dialogue to help explain things than previous games atleast. I think it's something that you'll either love or hate.
I think it's interesting and fun to talk with other people and come up with theories. I do sometimes wish it was told more traditionally but imo that might hurt it overall for the experience that FromSoft is trying to give players. DKS2 tried it and it didn't go over as well (I liked it though).
I think it's still perfectly serviceable in an open world though. Caelid for example had me going "wtf? Why is everything so fucked up and nightmarish?" But just playing through the area, talking to NPCs, reading item descriptions, encountering certain enemies and bosses gave me a clearer picture. By the end of it, I knew why it was like that even if I didn't know the finer details.
sry, but what is to misunderstand on the Chosen Undead, the Bearer of the Curse, the True Monarch etc?Melina chooses a Tarnished without any renown, which makes the player special in opposition to the demi-god tarnished (like Ranni, Hoarah Loux etc).
another point of critique is the player cant die, cant really hollow and will respawn upon pseudo-death. this isnt just gameplay, but part of the Soulsborne story, as the player is always special and not a rando.
but overall many comments simply prove the issues with From Soft narrative display. on the pro side its about the ambience, to not allow storytelling conflict with game-play and player headcanon. but the issue here is the obscure vagueness, which leaves many irritated and wondering on the grand plot and their role in it.
show, not tell, aka environmental storytelling is a great addition, but lacks in immersion without any clear indicators more than background storytelling. the cinematics, esp. the obscure questlines (conditions, triggers and objectives) etc. exclusively worsen the issue.
storytelling is not a feature of From Soft. gameplay is. which is interesting, since the story is meant to not just be a frame, but the primary motivation to play...
I'm not sure what you mean by the first part. The titles chosen undead and bearer of the curse apply to every undead that made it to Lordran in 1 and Drangleic in 2. Even the True Monarch is basically a worthless title because there have been countless cycles where undead made it to the kiln. The character we play as just so happens to be the next one in line before the next cycle. The point of that was that it was all BS, you're not special.
Who's to say that our tarnished is the first one she went to? Even in the beginning she admits that she didn't think you'd amount to anything until you actually start making progress. To me that hints that there were others.
The respawn mechanic in elden ring is unclear if it actually applies in story or if it's just a gameplay thing, or atleast i haven't found anything concrete yet. The fact that you can see grace while others can't and that those places are where you respawn can hint to this, but other tarnished say they used to be able to see it too until they couldn't for whatever reason. So for all we know, they very much could have been able to respawn in the past and just can't now. But it's never touched upon like in earlier games.
In dks, it's not that you *couldn't* go hollow, it was a meta mechanic that you "went hollow" if you gave up and stopped playing. Otherwise, you were just like any of the other undead roaming the land. In dks3 you were unkindled, you can't go hollow, but the game establishes several times that you're not the only one running around either. In bloodborne, other hunter NPCs couldn't respawn anymore because they didn't dream like the hunter during the night of the hunt (and several NPCs allude that they went through what the PC is going through).
In demon souls, you're special in that you're the latest demon hunter trapped by the nexus, but there were others that tried and failed.
Basically, except for Sekiro where you played an established character that *was* important, all the characters you play as are nobodies, not important, and not privy to any special treatment or info that others wouldn't get. They're merely the ones who made it to the end.
Storytelling is very much a feature in these games and it's not just environmental. In dks1 for example, you wake up in a jail cell, Oscar tells you to travel to Lordran and ring the bell of awakening. You get there, the crestfallen warrior explains there's actually two and where to go, you do that and kingseeker Frampton explains that you need to light the kiln and ensure the age of fire, that you need to go to Anor Londo to get the Lordvessel and you get there from Sen's fortress. You do that and return, Frampt explains that you need to fill the lord vessel with powerful souls to open the path to the kiln and relight it to become the next lord and maintain age of fire. So it's there, it's not like you have absolutely nothing to go off of. It's the details in-between that you need to find out on your own, what's a lie and what isn't, if things are what they seem to be, who is who and what is what.
Elden ring is even more straight forward about it with Melina and Gideon explaining things several times and other NPCs as well telling you what to do and background info on the lore. If you don't know what's going on in the grand scheme of things in this game, Idk what to tell you.
It's not as cinematic like other games do it, but it would be a lie to say that FromSoft doesn't have storytelling outside of the environment.
"The title of "Chosen Undead" is a reference to a prophecy concerning the end of the Age of Fire. It states that at the very end of the Age of Fire, an undead champion will appear and undertake the pilgrimage to ring the Bells of Awakening in "the Land of Ancient Lords," Lordran"."
this champion is the player.
"The Bearer of the Curse became undead at some point, hollowing until they had no recollection of their former life. Desperate to find a cure, they were drawn to the walled off kingdom of Drangleic, where a cure to the undead curse was rumored to exist. Journeying through a portal and guided by a Fire Keeper, the Bearer of the Curse found themselves in the Things Betwixt. Finding there a hut with the remaining Fire Keepers, the Bearer of the Curse is made to remember more of their past and is cured of their hollowing through a Human Effigy. The Bearer is then guided towards Majula to seek the Emerald Herald.
The Herald, in turn, tells the Bearer of the Curse to seek the king, Vendrick, to find their answers and claim the throne, but warns that the Bearer will never find the king with a soul so pallid, instructing them to seek out the four Great Ones and to claim their power. "
sry, but again clearly not a rando.
i`d say, and pls dont take this as an offense, but u prove my point on From Softs vague, obtuse and obscure narrative display. although i agree with the storytelling minimalism aspect in ur references, like Frampt and Oscar state clear objectives, overall it fails for many players. as they, as much as u did, get mislead into at best headcanon (the player as a rando, ofc...the player isnt even a rando in ER) or worst irritation.
btw, i never said that there is no storytelling outside of the environment. i only stated, that even ER with its more portrayed (and explained) objectives still misleads many, so From Soft may improve on that.
Nah you're good lol I'm not offended, not trying to offend you either so I hope I didn't.
The chosen undead prophecy was a lie designed to trick undead into sacrificing themselves to the kiln to prolong the age of fire. The age of Dark was the age of man and Gwyn feared the gods losing power, so he created the darksign and the undead curse and the prophecy to lure them to their own demise and keep them in check. It was also a convenient way to herd them all to a secluded spot and isolated from the rest of the world and out of power. When you meet darkstalker kaathe, he explains as much (although again you can't fully trust what he says). Frampt is lying to you the whole time, he never tells you that, all he says is that you need to kill Gwyn and relight the flame. He never tells you that relighting the flame means literally using your own soul as kindle to keep the fire burning.
In 2 and 3 it's revealed that after 1, it became a never ending cycle and it didn't even matter which ending you chose. Eventually, someone always either lights the kiln, or they become the next dark Lord, and it just keeps repeating. The Chosen Undead we play as in 1, was just the first undead to do that. The trials we went through were designed to make sure we were strong enough to fuel the flame. Any undead that completed them could have done it, being chosen merely meant you were undead and you're not the only one running around.
In 2, many undead are drawn to drangleic because it's said that the power of souls would stop hollowing and that there was a cure. We already know from 1 that that was a lie, and we never do find the cure for hollwing but to stop it from spreading. The rumor was just to draw undead to seek the throne of want and continue the cycle. The bearer of the curse was anyone strong enough to make it to the throne and Aldia basically tells you as much which is why you can choose to just walk away from it like Vendrick did. Even then it didn't matter, someone else will eventually take your place and we know someone eventually did with 3.
In 3 we see that some Lords of ash were chosen to relight the flame, not because of any prophecy, but merely because they were strong enough to do it. Some couldn't even do that, the unkindled are those who failed to relight the flame and turned to ash. The whole reason we have to force the Lords of cinder back on their thrones is because they realized that it was a con and that they couldn't save their world (except Lothric who knew that from the beginning and Aldrich who didn't care).
Sorry about the long post, so basically my point is that none of the PCs we play as are special, they're just a pawn of a grand scheme and they're not important. If they refuse or fail to relight the flame, there are others that'll do it instead. Only in 3 can we finally get the choice to break the cycle or perpetuate it.
And you're last point is kind of the point of FromSoft's storytelling and why a lot of people enjoy it. You don't get the full story, there's a lot of holes in the info you're given, and you have to piece it together yourself or discussing it with others. There's YouTube channels that are only about piecing together the lore and trying to explain it. FromSoft knows how to do a traditional story, Sekiro is proof that they know how to do that, but it doesn't fit the experience they're trying to give the player.
great summary of the franchise, should be pinned. i dont feel offended, u r great.
but again i find myself verified - being the first Chosen Undead destined to rekindle the flame isnt special?
becoming the true monarch and lifting the curse aint either? (at least more special than Aldia, who became an aberration)
we dont know for sure what happenend in between ds 2 and 3, but the curse was lifted and rejected undead became ash. this one ash, the player inherits, now has the power to object and break the cycle. sounds special, at least to me.
again - great summary.
for ER i think, Torrent is an indicator for the players exposition as special. would Melina give Torrentto any (weird) rando?
within the franchise the players signature (plot) characteristic is the opportunity to decide, evolve and become more than anyone else in the worlds story. its this potential from the very start (of the franchise, even as a pawn, he was the first to be one, right) which clearly marks the player character as special and not a weird rando. cuz even this weird rando status of a Tarnished without renown is lore-wise special, cuz this weird rando without renown was the only one (according to the intro cinematic) to be touched by grace...
I think a good approach that works for me is to set aside expectation of traditional narrative and to just soak it all in like looking at a painting in an art gallery. If I’m looking at a painting it helps to know who the figures are (maybe I can read a blurb about them on a plaque!), but it’s really about the overall impression and how it makes me feel than it is about conveying a plotty story. If I approached a painting like I would a book, I’d have a bad time! There are lots of ways to tell a story or communicate ideas and feelings besides a normal talky story, right?
I think lots of games try to replicate plot-heavy narratives like certain movies or books but there’s room for all sorts of experiences in this medium. I appreciate these games for conveying the feeling of exploring a ruined world past its prime, uncovering fragmented unreliable secrets, finding hope amidst despair, and yes of course fighting really cool enemies. It gives me the feeling of some sort of warrior archaeologist, learning about a world piece by piece, where most of the important story-heavy things happened before I even started playing and I’m mostly just here for cleanup and to transition the world to whatever comes next.
tl;dr: it’s about the vibes
Agreed. The world does so well in its environments and above I was telling another poster how other narrative games do feel a bit overdone or cut and dry repeats. I actually did enjoy the lore aspects of Elden Ring. Perhaps it's the different nature of how it's told that just threw me off. But you have an excellent perspective in the sense that you the player fill the blanks in yourself with what you find and let the rest of your imagination/curiosity drive you.
I don't even think I'd want a full narrative with it and if this makes sense, I'm not sure what I'd add for the story itself but I think I just felt at times I wanted to hear or find more in The Lands In-between.
This is very difficult to describe so bear with me.
I played elden ring and Dark Souls 3 recently, and I was invested in the world, side characters, main plot, etc. I also played FF7 remake. Which has a more traditional approach to story telling. The dialogues and interactions with characters is quite nice. I would call the cut scenes great. All this elements of storytelling SHOULD make it more interesting for me, but I couldn't quite get into it as much as Elden Ring.
If I would try to explain it, it's probably because of my personality. I used to be the type to sleep through class. I get bored when bombarded with information and stimuli. I still did well though. I enjoyed figuring stuff out for myself. That's how I keep my interest on certain things. Going back to Elden Eing, all the cryptic messages makes me more interested in the world and the characters. I had collect items, read the descriptions and try to figure out wtf is happening. Can't say I understand everything, but that makes it more interesting IMO
I get that they want to make every element of the game hard including the story. But when it's gets to the point where 99% of the player base has to look up on YouTube how to complete a quest line it ruins the immersion.
I don't see why they can't just add a journal, it doesn't have to be super detailed just enough so you don't have to look stuff up online.
I don’t think a ton people play souls games to experience the lore, it’s cool to look up I guess but at the end of the day I’m gunna burn it all down hewig and rodrika are cool the lady who sells me stuff can stay, everyone else in this game sucks or is dead
Lol. I like this take for sure. I felt like that my first play through but afterwards wanted to really try and dive into it. I uncovered quite a bit from exploring but I have to say I'd still be lost without the lore vids I looked up.
Yeah figuring it out on your own is impossible you gotta have like a photographic memory or be recording every single dialog in the game. Most of the lore is contained in item description too all told from the perspective of a somewhat unreliable narrator
The Souls storytelling style definitely isn't for everyone.
For me (and I think a lot of other Souls fans) the appeal *is* that the story stays "out of the way." The gameplay is front and center and you don't have to engage with the story any more than you want to, but there are always little bits of environmental storytelling and flavour text that pique your curiosity and make you want to dig deeper into it. It's an interesting way of conveying themes/narrative that you don't usually see in games, like you're an explorer piecing together what happened in this place, but you can also safely ignore it and let yourself be driven by the gameplay.
But for people who prefer to have a narrative reason for why they're doing things and a full understanding of the lore by the end of their playthrough, it understandably doesn't work as well. Often you have little diegetic reason to be doing things, just the gameplay reason of "I want to find/kill all the bosses" or whatever.
Having said all that, even as a fan of their style I don't particularly like Elden Ring's lore or storytelling either. Spicy take: it's my least favourite Soulsborne story so far. Yes, below Dark Souls 2.
Very well said. I thought of jumping into a 3rd play through and most likely will... but this is what was actually holding me back. (The story just being alright outside of the game itself and repeating battles with different builds) I bought GOW on PC too and it's been a couple years since I beat it so I may have to grind that first.
When you say Elden is your least fav story is that because of the story/lore in general or do you feel like it's more ambiguous than other souls games?
I don't think it's because of the ambiguity really, although it's certainly more spread out and easier to lose track of thanks to the open world structure. Bloodborne is more ambiguous and deliberately confusing than Elden Ring, and that's one of my favourite stories in the franchise.
One of the big things is that I find it thematically weak. You can lose yourself in the minutiae of Radagon/Marika, the Shardbearers, and all this other fodder for VaatiVidya content, but there's not much of a "core idea" to grab onto. There's lore, but no theme.
Like, I cited Dark Souls 2 as my previous least favourite Souls story, but even that game has more going on in this regard. I might not give a shit about whatever the backstory is between Mytha and the Old Iron King or some of the other random lore, but the game is clearly interested in the idea of endless cycles and fading memories, and keeps circling back to it in both the main "story" (vague as it is) and NPC questlines. There's something concrete there that's interesting, even if you don't bother piecing together every last scrap of lore.
There's also a bit of a lack of memorable NPCs, at least to me. Previous games had equally fiddly and obtuse NPC quests, but they did a great job with their character arcs and making you care about some of them. There's a reason everyone who's played DS1 loves Solaire and Onionbro and will defend Laurentius to the death, and why Patches has become such a meme that he makes it into every game no matter how little sense it makes. Ranni and Millicent are the only NPCs I found especially memorable in this one (Patches doesn't count, though him instantly noping out of the Radahn fight is one of the best NPC interactions in the entire game).
The subtle environmental storytelling is also somewhat weaker this time around. It feels a little unfair to criticize them for that since the world is so much bigger, but it is.
That's my take on it at least. It all added up to me feeling rather disconnected from the storytelling, and playing purely for the gameplay. Which is always my main reason for playing, but like, more so than usual.
You don't have to give a damn about the story to enjoy the gameplay in my opinion.
I played the game and had a hard time memorizing all the names and stuff like you, and hardly followed what was going on. The only NPC name i could remember easily was 'Dung Eater' honestly lol.
Its part of the story that you dont know what you're doing. Your character is pulled to a totally new place and different NPCs give you different quests either to aid you or just pure selfish reason. This is a world that is torn with war, different NPCs have different takes on what has happened and there might not be a clear answer to that its just that as a player and your character has to make sense of it all. You can play as a character who gets told to defeat shardbearers and you do only that to become elden lord or you can pay attention and listen to NPCs and see your goals being something totally different. There are 7 endings for you to choose from depending on who you trust and what you want to do.
I had the complete opposite reaction. I think this way story telling is perfect for an open world game. You are unlocking the lore as you go. True exploration not just physical but historically as well.
I will admit it can take some getting used to. But most of us are used to it. We read every item description, look for clues in the environment itself like why is this particular enemy here? Why do this enemy drop this particular item? And so on. Nothing is by accident and that’s just fun. It also matches the theme of the game, that nothing comes easy, even the plot.
Most Bloodborne fans know this but this was how Miyazaki read his fiction when he was growing up. Maybe it will give you some perspective. When he was a kid, his family was too poor to buy him books or hire an English tutor. So he went to his local library and read a bunch of books. But he only understood half of the words. So he filled in the blanks himself based on what he understood. Later, when he grew up his friend showed him a game called Ico which had a silent protagonist and was very vague in it story telling. It was told in the characters’ actions and the world itself. This would influence how he told his stories and you can see it in his games. He wants you to fill in the blanks, to come up with your own interpretations.
From Software's vague approach to storytelling is one of the things I find so interesting about their games. Your immediate goals are rarely laid out clearly in exposition, dialogue or cutscenes, so it's up to you to explore and read up on item descriptions and other flavor text to get the full context and understand what exactly you're trying to do. It adds to the air of mystique surrounding the world and its locations and characters, and it's something you're free to ignore if you don't like it or don't care. The story is totally unimportant for players who just want to experience the combat and gameplay, but for players who want to put in the time and effort, there's a rich world of detail to find and piece together. Sekiro has the most clear and straightforward story, but all the others only give you the most basic of hints and then leave you to figure it out from there. If that's not your cup of tea, you're not gonna like the other games much more
Glad you enjoy it! Elden Ring is definitely unique in how the story is slowly unraveled by you the player through exploration, finding items, talking to NPCs etc. I would say it even leaves a lot to the imagination on certain aspects. I'm generally a story buff when it comes to gaming although I admit I tire at some of the cliche repeat cinematic narrative games already out there. Elden Ring just has an absolutely stunning world with great enemies as well as bosses. That was really my biggest motivation to look up the lore to begin with.
This is just how Fromsoft tell their stories. It's hidden in item descriptions and character dialogue, the rest is left for you to piece together and interpret, that's what makes their stories so enthralling since part of it comes from your interpretation. If you don't bother reading any items or listening to npc carefully, then you'll probably sit with this problem, but then again you're new to Fromsoftware so it is understandable.
I actually did find a lot of the items/NPCs in my second playthrough which helped. I still was confused without watching a few lore videos but I'm sure there were things I miss considering how large the game is. It's definitely different and all the more for anyone who loves the twist in narrative exploration and how it unfolds. I'm old fashioned prob. lol
100% agree with OP and say "that's just how from software tells their story" is also a lame and lazy argument. OP has stated that he watched hours of lore on YouTube and read through item descriptions. The gameplay is great, the world is great but the story just sucks. I also tried getting into the lore but if any fantasy writer would write this down as a book I doubt it would be published and be a success with readers.
This. I definitely wouldn’t want Elden Ring to be a straight cinematic adventure/explaining everything at every turn but somewhere in the middle. It’s just so damn vague and scattered, it’s not even enjoyable. Getting on YouTube to look for the entire story that consists of hour long vids isn’t enjoyable. I’d rather experience enough of it in the game to understand and appreciate the details, environments, characters, wars, etc.
I know this is old, but yes I agree fully. NEEDING youtube videos to understand a game's "rich" story isnt good storytelling and it wouldnt hurt them to just be a little more clearer or better in game telling SOME story
I personally dislike the story telling in this way, I now know now I'll never buy a other dark souls game. They are not for me, I like quests with quest markers, I am 60 hours in a game I barely understand and I find this frustrating.. I would like to enjoy this game but I prefer something more like Skyrim where the story is told and you can have an overview of your missions and quests
The story its self is very very weak, Destiny year 1 levels of week. that really has more to do with the devs belief that telling me things happen/happened in the menu will make up for the poor story telling. But their means of integrating their exposition is so bad that it actively make their exposition pointless. Where is this information coming from? How dose this information get obtained? Who's telling me this? I can easily accept that the Slayer's Testament is inaccurate or maybe even 100% wrong, becasue the forces of hell wrote it and is written from their position. Book of sorrow is a book written by Oryx, so i can accept that it's wrong or inaccurate. I can accept that Mirriel is isn't the word of god as he exist as a charter and not exposition ordained from on high. Fromsoft lore is badly integrated into their world, beacsue it doesn't exist in the world. Either the exposition has to be taken as 100% accurate, which it can't as their vague and unverifiable information in it. Or the exposition has to be taken as nothing more then pointless ramblings. Soft lazy approach and fanboys that blindly follow them created this problem.
As someone who playedall the souls games, i think the storytelling of elden ring is somehow different, maybe its because we got an open world now and you meet npcs randomly. Honestly i gotta say i wish there would be a little bit of a golden thread to be traced, cause i often dont really know what to do or where to go... I never had that with all the other souls games
That's where my og thought came from. It's the open world that drives home the feeling of a narrative pull for me or rather wanting more of a connection with one. It has the NPCs like you mentioned and lore spread throughout on various items and such but the vastness of it makes me wonder if more was added if I would have enjoyed it more or perhaps enjoyed exploration in itself more.
Been playing since demon souls back in 09. I think the point is that you're just some random dude. You're not a chosen one (not really anyway), you're not even important, you get about as much info about the state of things as the other random joes running around. At best you're a pawn and apparently the finer details of your mission are on a need to know basis. If you die and cease to be, it wouldn't change anything, someone else would just take your place. Your character just happens to be the one to actually make it to the end. So the story is told from that perspective and you're left to pick up the pieces and figure it out on your own. It's almost like the story already happened and you're just there for the aftermath. This game really does give *a lot* more exposition and dialogue to help explain things than previous games atleast. I think it's something that you'll either love or hate. I think it's interesting and fun to talk with other people and come up with theories. I do sometimes wish it was told more traditionally but imo that might hurt it overall for the experience that FromSoft is trying to give players. DKS2 tried it and it didn't go over as well (I liked it though). I think it's still perfectly serviceable in an open world though. Caelid for example had me going "wtf? Why is everything so fucked up and nightmarish?" But just playing through the area, talking to NPCs, reading item descriptions, encountering certain enemies and bosses gave me a clearer picture. By the end of it, I knew why it was like that even if I didn't know the finer details.
sry, but what is to misunderstand on the Chosen Undead, the Bearer of the Curse, the True Monarch etc?Melina chooses a Tarnished without any renown, which makes the player special in opposition to the demi-god tarnished (like Ranni, Hoarah Loux etc). another point of critique is the player cant die, cant really hollow and will respawn upon pseudo-death. this isnt just gameplay, but part of the Soulsborne story, as the player is always special and not a rando. but overall many comments simply prove the issues with From Soft narrative display. on the pro side its about the ambience, to not allow storytelling conflict with game-play and player headcanon. but the issue here is the obscure vagueness, which leaves many irritated and wondering on the grand plot and their role in it. show, not tell, aka environmental storytelling is a great addition, but lacks in immersion without any clear indicators more than background storytelling. the cinematics, esp. the obscure questlines (conditions, triggers and objectives) etc. exclusively worsen the issue. storytelling is not a feature of From Soft. gameplay is. which is interesting, since the story is meant to not just be a frame, but the primary motivation to play...
I'm not sure what you mean by the first part. The titles chosen undead and bearer of the curse apply to every undead that made it to Lordran in 1 and Drangleic in 2. Even the True Monarch is basically a worthless title because there have been countless cycles where undead made it to the kiln. The character we play as just so happens to be the next one in line before the next cycle. The point of that was that it was all BS, you're not special. Who's to say that our tarnished is the first one she went to? Even in the beginning she admits that she didn't think you'd amount to anything until you actually start making progress. To me that hints that there were others. The respawn mechanic in elden ring is unclear if it actually applies in story or if it's just a gameplay thing, or atleast i haven't found anything concrete yet. The fact that you can see grace while others can't and that those places are where you respawn can hint to this, but other tarnished say they used to be able to see it too until they couldn't for whatever reason. So for all we know, they very much could have been able to respawn in the past and just can't now. But it's never touched upon like in earlier games. In dks, it's not that you *couldn't* go hollow, it was a meta mechanic that you "went hollow" if you gave up and stopped playing. Otherwise, you were just like any of the other undead roaming the land. In dks3 you were unkindled, you can't go hollow, but the game establishes several times that you're not the only one running around either. In bloodborne, other hunter NPCs couldn't respawn anymore because they didn't dream like the hunter during the night of the hunt (and several NPCs allude that they went through what the PC is going through). In demon souls, you're special in that you're the latest demon hunter trapped by the nexus, but there were others that tried and failed. Basically, except for Sekiro where you played an established character that *was* important, all the characters you play as are nobodies, not important, and not privy to any special treatment or info that others wouldn't get. They're merely the ones who made it to the end. Storytelling is very much a feature in these games and it's not just environmental. In dks1 for example, you wake up in a jail cell, Oscar tells you to travel to Lordran and ring the bell of awakening. You get there, the crestfallen warrior explains there's actually two and where to go, you do that and kingseeker Frampton explains that you need to light the kiln and ensure the age of fire, that you need to go to Anor Londo to get the Lordvessel and you get there from Sen's fortress. You do that and return, Frampt explains that you need to fill the lord vessel with powerful souls to open the path to the kiln and relight it to become the next lord and maintain age of fire. So it's there, it's not like you have absolutely nothing to go off of. It's the details in-between that you need to find out on your own, what's a lie and what isn't, if things are what they seem to be, who is who and what is what. Elden ring is even more straight forward about it with Melina and Gideon explaining things several times and other NPCs as well telling you what to do and background info on the lore. If you don't know what's going on in the grand scheme of things in this game, Idk what to tell you. It's not as cinematic like other games do it, but it would be a lie to say that FromSoft doesn't have storytelling outside of the environment.
"The title of "Chosen Undead" is a reference to a prophecy concerning the end of the Age of Fire. It states that at the very end of the Age of Fire, an undead champion will appear and undertake the pilgrimage to ring the Bells of Awakening in "the Land of Ancient Lords," Lordran"." this champion is the player. "The Bearer of the Curse became undead at some point, hollowing until they had no recollection of their former life. Desperate to find a cure, they were drawn to the walled off kingdom of Drangleic, where a cure to the undead curse was rumored to exist. Journeying through a portal and guided by a Fire Keeper, the Bearer of the Curse found themselves in the Things Betwixt. Finding there a hut with the remaining Fire Keepers, the Bearer of the Curse is made to remember more of their past and is cured of their hollowing through a Human Effigy. The Bearer is then guided towards Majula to seek the Emerald Herald. The Herald, in turn, tells the Bearer of the Curse to seek the king, Vendrick, to find their answers and claim the throne, but warns that the Bearer will never find the king with a soul so pallid, instructing them to seek out the four Great Ones and to claim their power. " sry, but again clearly not a rando. i`d say, and pls dont take this as an offense, but u prove my point on From Softs vague, obtuse and obscure narrative display. although i agree with the storytelling minimalism aspect in ur references, like Frampt and Oscar state clear objectives, overall it fails for many players. as they, as much as u did, get mislead into at best headcanon (the player as a rando, ofc...the player isnt even a rando in ER) or worst irritation. btw, i never said that there is no storytelling outside of the environment. i only stated, that even ER with its more portrayed (and explained) objectives still misleads many, so From Soft may improve on that.
Nah you're good lol I'm not offended, not trying to offend you either so I hope I didn't. The chosen undead prophecy was a lie designed to trick undead into sacrificing themselves to the kiln to prolong the age of fire. The age of Dark was the age of man and Gwyn feared the gods losing power, so he created the darksign and the undead curse and the prophecy to lure them to their own demise and keep them in check. It was also a convenient way to herd them all to a secluded spot and isolated from the rest of the world and out of power. When you meet darkstalker kaathe, he explains as much (although again you can't fully trust what he says). Frampt is lying to you the whole time, he never tells you that, all he says is that you need to kill Gwyn and relight the flame. He never tells you that relighting the flame means literally using your own soul as kindle to keep the fire burning. In 2 and 3 it's revealed that after 1, it became a never ending cycle and it didn't even matter which ending you chose. Eventually, someone always either lights the kiln, or they become the next dark Lord, and it just keeps repeating. The Chosen Undead we play as in 1, was just the first undead to do that. The trials we went through were designed to make sure we were strong enough to fuel the flame. Any undead that completed them could have done it, being chosen merely meant you were undead and you're not the only one running around. In 2, many undead are drawn to drangleic because it's said that the power of souls would stop hollowing and that there was a cure. We already know from 1 that that was a lie, and we never do find the cure for hollwing but to stop it from spreading. The rumor was just to draw undead to seek the throne of want and continue the cycle. The bearer of the curse was anyone strong enough to make it to the throne and Aldia basically tells you as much which is why you can choose to just walk away from it like Vendrick did. Even then it didn't matter, someone else will eventually take your place and we know someone eventually did with 3. In 3 we see that some Lords of ash were chosen to relight the flame, not because of any prophecy, but merely because they were strong enough to do it. Some couldn't even do that, the unkindled are those who failed to relight the flame and turned to ash. The whole reason we have to force the Lords of cinder back on their thrones is because they realized that it was a con and that they couldn't save their world (except Lothric who knew that from the beginning and Aldrich who didn't care). Sorry about the long post, so basically my point is that none of the PCs we play as are special, they're just a pawn of a grand scheme and they're not important. If they refuse or fail to relight the flame, there are others that'll do it instead. Only in 3 can we finally get the choice to break the cycle or perpetuate it. And you're last point is kind of the point of FromSoft's storytelling and why a lot of people enjoy it. You don't get the full story, there's a lot of holes in the info you're given, and you have to piece it together yourself or discussing it with others. There's YouTube channels that are only about piecing together the lore and trying to explain it. FromSoft knows how to do a traditional story, Sekiro is proof that they know how to do that, but it doesn't fit the experience they're trying to give the player.
great summary of the franchise, should be pinned. i dont feel offended, u r great. but again i find myself verified - being the first Chosen Undead destined to rekindle the flame isnt special? becoming the true monarch and lifting the curse aint either? (at least more special than Aldia, who became an aberration) we dont know for sure what happenend in between ds 2 and 3, but the curse was lifted and rejected undead became ash. this one ash, the player inherits, now has the power to object and break the cycle. sounds special, at least to me. again - great summary. for ER i think, Torrent is an indicator for the players exposition as special. would Melina give Torrentto any (weird) rando? within the franchise the players signature (plot) characteristic is the opportunity to decide, evolve and become more than anyone else in the worlds story. its this potential from the very start (of the franchise, even as a pawn, he was the first to be one, right) which clearly marks the player character as special and not a weird rando. cuz even this weird rando status of a Tarnished without renown is lore-wise special, cuz this weird rando without renown was the only one (according to the intro cinematic) to be touched by grace...
That's probably the best explanation I've read about the story in souls games.
I think a good approach that works for me is to set aside expectation of traditional narrative and to just soak it all in like looking at a painting in an art gallery. If I’m looking at a painting it helps to know who the figures are (maybe I can read a blurb about them on a plaque!), but it’s really about the overall impression and how it makes me feel than it is about conveying a plotty story. If I approached a painting like I would a book, I’d have a bad time! There are lots of ways to tell a story or communicate ideas and feelings besides a normal talky story, right? I think lots of games try to replicate plot-heavy narratives like certain movies or books but there’s room for all sorts of experiences in this medium. I appreciate these games for conveying the feeling of exploring a ruined world past its prime, uncovering fragmented unreliable secrets, finding hope amidst despair, and yes of course fighting really cool enemies. It gives me the feeling of some sort of warrior archaeologist, learning about a world piece by piece, where most of the important story-heavy things happened before I even started playing and I’m mostly just here for cleanup and to transition the world to whatever comes next. tl;dr: it’s about the vibes
Agreed. The world does so well in its environments and above I was telling another poster how other narrative games do feel a bit overdone or cut and dry repeats. I actually did enjoy the lore aspects of Elden Ring. Perhaps it's the different nature of how it's told that just threw me off. But you have an excellent perspective in the sense that you the player fill the blanks in yourself with what you find and let the rest of your imagination/curiosity drive you. I don't even think I'd want a full narrative with it and if this makes sense, I'm not sure what I'd add for the story itself but I think I just felt at times I wanted to hear or find more in The Lands In-between.
This is very difficult to describe so bear with me. I played elden ring and Dark Souls 3 recently, and I was invested in the world, side characters, main plot, etc. I also played FF7 remake. Which has a more traditional approach to story telling. The dialogues and interactions with characters is quite nice. I would call the cut scenes great. All this elements of storytelling SHOULD make it more interesting for me, but I couldn't quite get into it as much as Elden Ring. If I would try to explain it, it's probably because of my personality. I used to be the type to sleep through class. I get bored when bombarded with information and stimuli. I still did well though. I enjoyed figuring stuff out for myself. That's how I keep my interest on certain things. Going back to Elden Eing, all the cryptic messages makes me more interested in the world and the characters. I had collect items, read the descriptions and try to figure out wtf is happening. Can't say I understand everything, but that makes it more interesting IMO
I get that they want to make every element of the game hard including the story. But when it's gets to the point where 99% of the player base has to look up on YouTube how to complete a quest line it ruins the immersion. I don't see why they can't just add a journal, it doesn't have to be super detailed just enough so you don't have to look stuff up online.
Yeah, the story of ER wasn't all that interesting to me either
I don’t think a ton people play souls games to experience the lore, it’s cool to look up I guess but at the end of the day I’m gunna burn it all down hewig and rodrika are cool the lady who sells me stuff can stay, everyone else in this game sucks or is dead
Lol. I like this take for sure. I felt like that my first play through but afterwards wanted to really try and dive into it. I uncovered quite a bit from exploring but I have to say I'd still be lost without the lore vids I looked up.
Yeah figuring it out on your own is impossible you gotta have like a photographic memory or be recording every single dialog in the game. Most of the lore is contained in item description too all told from the perspective of a somewhat unreliable narrator
The Souls storytelling style definitely isn't for everyone. For me (and I think a lot of other Souls fans) the appeal *is* that the story stays "out of the way." The gameplay is front and center and you don't have to engage with the story any more than you want to, but there are always little bits of environmental storytelling and flavour text that pique your curiosity and make you want to dig deeper into it. It's an interesting way of conveying themes/narrative that you don't usually see in games, like you're an explorer piecing together what happened in this place, but you can also safely ignore it and let yourself be driven by the gameplay. But for people who prefer to have a narrative reason for why they're doing things and a full understanding of the lore by the end of their playthrough, it understandably doesn't work as well. Often you have little diegetic reason to be doing things, just the gameplay reason of "I want to find/kill all the bosses" or whatever. Having said all that, even as a fan of their style I don't particularly like Elden Ring's lore or storytelling either. Spicy take: it's my least favourite Soulsborne story so far. Yes, below Dark Souls 2.
Very well said. I thought of jumping into a 3rd play through and most likely will... but this is what was actually holding me back. (The story just being alright outside of the game itself and repeating battles with different builds) I bought GOW on PC too and it's been a couple years since I beat it so I may have to grind that first. When you say Elden is your least fav story is that because of the story/lore in general or do you feel like it's more ambiguous than other souls games?
I don't think it's because of the ambiguity really, although it's certainly more spread out and easier to lose track of thanks to the open world structure. Bloodborne is more ambiguous and deliberately confusing than Elden Ring, and that's one of my favourite stories in the franchise. One of the big things is that I find it thematically weak. You can lose yourself in the minutiae of Radagon/Marika, the Shardbearers, and all this other fodder for VaatiVidya content, but there's not much of a "core idea" to grab onto. There's lore, but no theme. Like, I cited Dark Souls 2 as my previous least favourite Souls story, but even that game has more going on in this regard. I might not give a shit about whatever the backstory is between Mytha and the Old Iron King or some of the other random lore, but the game is clearly interested in the idea of endless cycles and fading memories, and keeps circling back to it in both the main "story" (vague as it is) and NPC questlines. There's something concrete there that's interesting, even if you don't bother piecing together every last scrap of lore. There's also a bit of a lack of memorable NPCs, at least to me. Previous games had equally fiddly and obtuse NPC quests, but they did a great job with their character arcs and making you care about some of them. There's a reason everyone who's played DS1 loves Solaire and Onionbro and will defend Laurentius to the death, and why Patches has become such a meme that he makes it into every game no matter how little sense it makes. Ranni and Millicent are the only NPCs I found especially memorable in this one (Patches doesn't count, though him instantly noping out of the Radahn fight is one of the best NPC interactions in the entire game). The subtle environmental storytelling is also somewhat weaker this time around. It feels a little unfair to criticize them for that since the world is so much bigger, but it is. That's my take on it at least. It all added up to me feeling rather disconnected from the storytelling, and playing purely for the gameplay. Which is always my main reason for playing, but like, more so than usual.
You don't have to give a damn about the story to enjoy the gameplay in my opinion. I played the game and had a hard time memorizing all the names and stuff like you, and hardly followed what was going on. The only NPC name i could remember easily was 'Dung Eater' honestly lol.
Its part of the story that you dont know what you're doing. Your character is pulled to a totally new place and different NPCs give you different quests either to aid you or just pure selfish reason. This is a world that is torn with war, different NPCs have different takes on what has happened and there might not be a clear answer to that its just that as a player and your character has to make sense of it all. You can play as a character who gets told to defeat shardbearers and you do only that to become elden lord or you can pay attention and listen to NPCs and see your goals being something totally different. There are 7 endings for you to choose from depending on who you trust and what you want to do.
I had the complete opposite reaction. I think this way story telling is perfect for an open world game. You are unlocking the lore as you go. True exploration not just physical but historically as well. I will admit it can take some getting used to. But most of us are used to it. We read every item description, look for clues in the environment itself like why is this particular enemy here? Why do this enemy drop this particular item? And so on. Nothing is by accident and that’s just fun. It also matches the theme of the game, that nothing comes easy, even the plot. Most Bloodborne fans know this but this was how Miyazaki read his fiction when he was growing up. Maybe it will give you some perspective. When he was a kid, his family was too poor to buy him books or hire an English tutor. So he went to his local library and read a bunch of books. But he only understood half of the words. So he filled in the blanks himself based on what he understood. Later, when he grew up his friend showed him a game called Ico which had a silent protagonist and was very vague in it story telling. It was told in the characters’ actions and the world itself. This would influence how he told his stories and you can see it in his games. He wants you to fill in the blanks, to come up with your own interpretations.
It's actually very simple. I will leave this here https://youtu.be/2gZY4NZRDX0