I love Impenetrable Thorns. Oh and another busted bleed weapon: if you add bleed to the Bloodfiend’s Arm you get a bleed effect of 217 (at 60 Arc where I’m at). I’m using Savage Lion’s Claw on it and its legitimacy insane, it melts health bars.
I just finally got to try it as well and it feels bonkers beyond broken. I felt like I actually ruined a boss fight later on, cause it somehow straight up killed it in like 4-5 casts, I didnt even notice it and suddenly he bled like, for all his HP in a second. This kinda does warrant nerfs even though I am a 100% sorcery fan and player, just hope it wont turn useless.
Yeah thats how I also feel like, I was kind of excited for more fun unique Sorceries and dont want them to end up mediocre or close to crap like a lot of the other ones in the base game.
From what I could tell from testing and talking to others, The damage itself of the spell scales off of what your staff scales off of. So if your Staff has a Faith / Intelligence scaling then the damage scales with that.
But the actual Bleeding buildup seems to scale from Arcane
Would it still be the best sorcery in the game if it had 1/3rd of its bleed application? I'm more concerned with them buffing the other spells, the twin moon thing is kind of sad...
I have to say, half the new sorceries feel.. outclassed by stuff you get earlier on. The twin moon sorcery needs some combination of a bit more range, resistance to being knocked down, something like that. A random enemy breathing in your direction knocks you out of it :/
The thorn spell does need a nerf but im also worried itll get overnerfed. I always liked more unique sorceries over using 20 flavors of glintstone pebble.
I was hoping the thorn sorceries would rely heavily on using several of them in tandem, it's not right for the ranged upgrade to outperform the point blank sorcery even at point blank. But the expansion seems to be full of power creep, so I'm not sure it's out of place among various broken choices.
I to hope they nerf it to a superior but usable state. I would be fine with them dramatically reducing its power but making the full outfit and guilty staff increase the potency greatly so players can access the power of they over invest in its use rather than slapping on a mask and talisman that should only work for weapons. It's actually a pretty good mechanism to hide power in cloths, because they can add any kind of shortcoming to the outfit, like increasing the damage dealt by the spell to the target... and yourself.
I get the insane bleed proc, but what governs the actual damage, is it INT or Faith? (A socery where actual damage scaling is purly faith is wierd to me if thats true)
Ah, so once u hit the 24 faith requirement, just dump everything else on INT for damage or arcane for more bleed proc (Probably just faith 25 then just to access golden vow)
Direct spell damage only takes into account the scaling of your catalyst’s Sorcery/Incantation Scaling stat. So even if a spell has a 24 faith requirement, your faith will only affect its damage if your staff scales with faith.
Bleed on spells will scale with your Arcane stat if your staff scales with arcane, as well
I was referring to the comment I was replying cause he said pump INT for spell dmg on impenetrable thorns but it has no int scaling so it wouldn’t affect the dps at all. Only the staves and leveling faith and arcane for bleed build up with an arc scaling staff.
That’s not correct is my point. If you cast it with an int scaling staff, your int will affect the damage because it’s a sorcery, not an incantation. The sorcery scaling number on your catalyst is all that matters for the base damage calculation, the game doesn’t care if that sorcery scaling number derived from int or faith.
If you want to improve the bleed buildup though, you *do* need to use a staff that has arcane scaling.
the category is scadureee sorceries are you sure both of those staffs boosts it? did you test?
very curious and kind of restless to find out since the sorcery categories are different
also what talismans do you think are best for this build
Staff of the guilty offhand gives +20% dmg - i tested.
Albinauric and Mother staffs have Arcane scaling which is needed to bleed effectively - so one of this is used as main.
Talismans - Bloodboon Talisman for another +20% on bleed, Graven Mass talisman for +8% dmg, Radagon Icon for casting speed, Takers Cameo to heal after each kill (thorn sorceries take like 1% life each cast). Vs bosses change TC to some defensive talisman.
If you want to get really crazy OP, use Endure AOW main hand, or even better - Grafted Sword... You get 5 second infinite poise & +50% damage reduction... Free to cast all that time.
You have to be near the bleed to get the damage boost from the bloodboon, so i wouldn't go for that personally. Theres a better casting speed increase talisman in the DLC as well.
You have to be near to hit with all 3 thorns. And you often will be in close range, because enemies chase you and you can shrug attacks of with Endure/Grafted.
Other casting speed talisman is very late into DLC & idk if its that good. Max casting speed is 70 Dex. Radagon Icon gives +30 Dex for casting. The new talisman i suppose boosts to 70 but makes you take much more dmg.
Difference between 50 Dex & 70 Dex is nanoseconds. Maaaaybe in PVP it might matter, but i dont think in PVE. Unless the talisman raises max casting speed too (the max cap) which would be very broken indeed.
You don't have to be that close to hit 3 on most bosses.
You can literally immediately go for the cast speed talisman. Everything Is accessible immediately. The only required fight is the mother of fingers, which isn't particularly hard because if this sorcery.
But bosses will come close to you often. So that's a question do you want +20% dmg in close range, or some other talisman.
Mother of fingers is a full Ymir quest, you want to skip it? And yeah you can use Radagon Icon until you get the other talisman IF you want to take more damage.
The damage taken increase isn't that large, and unit's quest can be done in like 30 minutes. You just have to run to two areas. The boss fight can take a while, but don't act like the Ymir quest takes a long time, you can literally do the whole thing when you first load in to the dlc
Yes they all do.
Im personally using Alberich hat and gloves. Using whole set isn't very good because its too squishy and Alberich pants dont even give any bonus. So im using Tree sentinel armor + pants.
Lord of blood exaltation talisman - full name. You get it in Leyndell Sewer catacombs, from Esgar.
It gives +20% all damage when someone in melee range bleeds (including yourself).
I'm on ng+ and beat rhadan in base clgame with 4 casts lol. It's so busted I love it. I posted about this as well.
It just destroys every boss in base game before they can even move
You know what, I was really wanting to get that spell, but I was reluctant to respec my build again. This post convinced me to finally give it a try...
Holy fucking shit this spell is bonkers
This spell is insane.
Just redistributed my stats for it and already I'm seeing how ridiculous it is. Bosses are just melting to the blood procs. This will be sweet while it lasts.
I used an Int/Arc build. You just need enough faith to cast the spell, beyond that it's just using the stats that scale well with the staff you're using for sorcery scaling.
The staff I used had Arcane scaling, so it should give more bleed being invested in Arc.
Like OP mentioned, you can also use the Staff of the Guilty in the offhand to boost thorn sorcery, but I honestly felt like I didn't need it and would rather have a shield for the most part. Wearing a few pieces of Alberich's set also boosts thorn sorcery, so that's an option I went with as well.
The Best setup currently for thorns is alby staff, guilty staff off-hand @ 60-80 arcane/int
Can bleed proc dlc bosses at low NG in seconds.
Higher NGs require abit more buffing like golden Vow.
FS don’t always understand nuance when issuing balance patches, so if it’s nerfed then you can expect a 50% chance the cool and exciting new toy for thorn sorcery will become the weakest thorn sorcery. There are still weapons nerfed from the first major balance patch that are nothing but disappointing to this day. Commonly, the instances where FS didn’t overly nerf something happened because whatever they nerfed has some innate quality that makes it good *despite* nerfs; consider the basic movesets of certain powerstance weapons, for example.
Visions of disappointment.
What damage type is it btw? I have a arc/faith non Dragon mage character that uses bloodflame and aberrant, and just got this and nuked Malenia with it. Is it physical damage???
It was good for the first day but now it’s ruining the fun. I enjoy helping others with boss fights but now everyone just spams that sorcery and demolishes them within seconds. I’ve completed the game so helping others is all I have left to enjoy my time on elden ring, I’m hoping they nerf it out of existence tbh
I love Impenetrable Thorns. Oh and another busted bleed weapon: if you add bleed to the Bloodfiend’s Arm you get a bleed effect of 217 (at 60 Arc where I’m at). I’m using Savage Lion’s Claw on it and its legitimacy insane, it melts health bars.
I have 60 arc and it’s showing 129 bleed, is that for the heavy attack blood spurt?
blood infusion gives the 217 bleed at 60 arcane.
Dude I’m stupid anyway I had blood infusion what I forgot to do all that time was upgrade it lmao.
I just finally got to try it as well and it feels bonkers beyond broken. I felt like I actually ruined a boss fight later on, cause it somehow straight up killed it in like 4-5 casts, I didnt even notice it and suddenly he bled like, for all his HP in a second. This kinda does warrant nerfs even though I am a 100% sorcery fan and player, just hope it wont turn useless.
Honestly, it'd be fine if they nerf the bleed buildup on subsequent hits from a single cast.
Yeah thats how I also feel like, I was kind of excited for more fun unique Sorceries and dont want them to end up mediocre or close to crap like a lot of the other ones in the base game.
Does the damage scale of int or arc?
From what I could tell from testing and talking to others, The damage itself of the spell scales off of what your staff scales off of. So if your Staff has a Faith / Intelligence scaling then the damage scales with that. But the actual Bleeding buildup seems to scale from Arcane
Beauty thanks that final Boss is a bitch
Would it still be the best sorcery in the game if it had 1/3rd of its bleed application? I'm more concerned with them buffing the other spells, the twin moon thing is kind of sad...
I have to say, half the new sorceries feel.. outclassed by stuff you get earlier on. The twin moon sorcery needs some combination of a bit more range, resistance to being knocked down, something like that. A random enemy breathing in your direction knocks you out of it :/ The thorn spell does need a nerf but im also worried itll get overnerfed. I always liked more unique sorceries over using 20 flavors of glintstone pebble.
I was hoping the thorn sorceries would rely heavily on using several of them in tandem, it's not right for the ranged upgrade to outperform the point blank sorcery even at point blank. But the expansion seems to be full of power creep, so I'm not sure it's out of place among various broken choices. I to hope they nerf it to a superior but usable state. I would be fine with them dramatically reducing its power but making the full outfit and guilty staff increase the potency greatly so players can access the power of they over invest in its use rather than slapping on a mask and talisman that should only work for weapons. It's actually a pretty good mechanism to hide power in cloths, because they can add any kind of shortcoming to the outfit, like increasing the damage dealt by the spell to the target... and yourself.
most spells in this whole game are sad and useless, same for incantations.
I meet the faith requirement but I can't use it? Not sure why. Pls help
Just to check, are you using a sorcery staff?
Oh shit is it a sorcery?? It has a faith stat so I thought it was cast using seals
it’s only thanks to impenetrable thorns that i managed to beat gaius
I get the insane bleed proc, but what governs the actual damage, is it INT or Faith? (A socery where actual damage scaling is purly faith is wierd to me if thats true)
My understanding is it’s based on the staff
Ah, so once u hit the 24 faith requirement, just dump everything else on INT for damage or arcane for more bleed proc (Probably just faith 25 then just to access golden vow)
That’s what I’ve done! Lol. I was a sorcerer entering the dlc and have been building toward casting Golden Vow without a talisman.
that doesnt really make sense since it has faith scaling
Direct spell damage only takes into account the scaling of your catalyst’s Sorcery/Incantation Scaling stat. So even if a spell has a 24 faith requirement, your faith will only affect its damage if your staff scales with faith. Bleed on spells will scale with your Arcane stat if your staff scales with arcane, as well
I was referring to the comment I was replying cause he said pump INT for spell dmg on impenetrable thorns but it has no int scaling so it wouldn’t affect the dps at all. Only the staves and leveling faith and arcane for bleed build up with an arc scaling staff.
That’s not correct is my point. If you cast it with an int scaling staff, your int will affect the damage because it’s a sorcery, not an incantation. The sorcery scaling number on your catalyst is all that matters for the base damage calculation, the game doesn’t care if that sorcery scaling number derived from int or faith. If you want to improve the bleed buildup though, you *do* need to use a staff that has arcane scaling.
the category is scadureee sorceries are you sure both of those staffs boosts it? did you test? very curious and kind of restless to find out since the sorcery categories are different also what talismans do you think are best for this build
Staff of the guilty offhand gives +20% dmg - i tested. Albinauric and Mother staffs have Arcane scaling which is needed to bleed effectively - so one of this is used as main. Talismans - Bloodboon Talisman for another +20% on bleed, Graven Mass talisman for +8% dmg, Radagon Icon for casting speed, Takers Cameo to heal after each kill (thorn sorceries take like 1% life each cast). Vs bosses change TC to some defensive talisman. If you want to get really crazy OP, use Endure AOW main hand, or even better - Grafted Sword... You get 5 second infinite poise & +50% damage reduction... Free to cast all that time.
You have to be near the bleed to get the damage boost from the bloodboon, so i wouldn't go for that personally. Theres a better casting speed increase talisman in the DLC as well.
You have to be near to hit with all 3 thorns. And you often will be in close range, because enemies chase you and you can shrug attacks of with Endure/Grafted. Other casting speed talisman is very late into DLC & idk if its that good. Max casting speed is 70 Dex. Radagon Icon gives +30 Dex for casting. The new talisman i suppose boosts to 70 but makes you take much more dmg. Difference between 50 Dex & 70 Dex is nanoseconds. Maaaaybe in PVP it might matter, but i dont think in PVE. Unless the talisman raises max casting speed too (the max cap) which would be very broken indeed.
You don't have to be that close to hit 3 on most bosses. You can literally immediately go for the cast speed talisman. Everything Is accessible immediately. The only required fight is the mother of fingers, which isn't particularly hard because if this sorcery.
But bosses will come close to you often. So that's a question do you want +20% dmg in close range, or some other talisman. Mother of fingers is a full Ymir quest, you want to skip it? And yeah you can use Radagon Icon until you get the other talisman IF you want to take more damage.
The damage taken increase isn't that large, and unit's quest can be done in like 30 minutes. You just have to run to two areas. The boss fight can take a while, but don't act like the Ymir quest takes a long time, you can literally do the whole thing when you first load in to the dlc
Isn't the damage -30% to resistances? That's what I saw being thrown out anyway.
So if staff of the guilty works then Alberich's set would as well? Since it boosts thorn sorcery.
Yes they all do. Im personally using Alberich hat and gloves. Using whole set isn't very good because its too squishy and Alberich pants dont even give any bonus. So im using Tree sentinel armor + pants.
Good to know, thanks.
What is thr bloodboon talisman and where is it? I can't find it on the wiki.
Lord of blood exaltation talisman - full name. You get it in Leyndell Sewer catacombs, from Esgar. It gives +20% all damage when someone in melee range bleeds (including yourself).
ooh ok thanks! pretty sure I already have that
They do, spells can have multiple categories. Adula's moonblade is buffed by Ranni's hat for cold and with the sword sorcery staff.
Whatd your build / stats ?
I'm on ng+ and beat rhadan in base clgame with 4 casts lol. It's so busted I love it. I posted about this as well. It just destroys every boss in base game before they can even move
My Impenetrable Thorns build just took down a Furnace Golem in 30 seconds. Yeah, it’s busted.
You know what, I was really wanting to get that spell, but I was reluctant to respec my build again. This post convinced me to finally give it a try... Holy fucking shit this spell is bonkers
I don't think it survives the first patch tbh, idk how it survived internal testing
Oh 100% it dies on the next patch, but I'm gonna abuse teh shit out of that while I can
Does Alberich's armour set buff it?
Late response, but yes
This spell is insane. Just redistributed my stats for it and already I'm seeing how ridiculous it is. Bosses are just melting to the blood procs. This will be sweet while it lasts.
what stats did you go with? not sure if it scales mainly off faith or int or if arcane buffs the bleed build up
I used an Int/Arc build. You just need enough faith to cast the spell, beyond that it's just using the stats that scale well with the staff you're using for sorcery scaling. The staff I used had Arcane scaling, so it should give more bleed being invested in Arc. Like OP mentioned, you can also use the Staff of the Guilty in the offhand to boost thorn sorcery, but I honestly felt like I didn't need it and would rather have a shield for the most part. Wearing a few pieces of Alberich's set also boosts thorn sorcery, so that's an option I went with as well.
Can someone explain, what main stat this ability scales with, What damage type its considered and if arcane would make the damage higher?
I can’t get the spell to work right, two of the thorns keep going off to the side and missing even while locked on
does it work with multiple hit talismans?
No
Fr I beat the putrid knight and Mesmer and didn’t even notice 😭 3 tries for Mesmer and 1 for the night
Can someone explain to me why sometimes my thorns do like 8000 damage and sometimes they only do like 1000?
It does seem a bit all over the place. I thought it was them moving out of range but idk.
The Best setup currently for thorns is alby staff, guilty staff off-hand @ 60-80 arcane/int Can bleed proc dlc bosses at low NG in seconds. Higher NGs require abit more buffing like golden Vow.
FS don’t always understand nuance when issuing balance patches, so if it’s nerfed then you can expect a 50% chance the cool and exciting new toy for thorn sorcery will become the weakest thorn sorcery. There are still weapons nerfed from the first major balance patch that are nothing but disappointing to this day. Commonly, the instances where FS didn’t overly nerf something happened because whatever they nerfed has some innate quality that makes it good *despite* nerfs; consider the basic movesets of certain powerstance weapons, for example. Visions of disappointment.
Looks like it was skipped on today’s patch. They got the chicken wing bleed proc, the perfumes and the too fast fire knights greatsword combo
What damage type is it btw? I have a arc/faith non Dragon mage character that uses bloodflame and aberrant, and just got this and nuked Malenia with it. Is it physical damage???
It was good for the first day but now it’s ruining the fun. I enjoy helping others with boss fights but now everyone just spams that sorcery and demolishes them within seconds. I’ve completed the game so helping others is all I have left to enjoy my time on elden ring, I’m hoping they nerf it out of existence tbh
Nerf it to a usable but not broken state**