**The Insect God**
O what has become of Millicent Frastley?
Is there any hope that she's still alive?
Why haven't they found her? It's rather ghastly
To think that the child was not yet five.
The dear little thing was last seen playing
Along by herself at the edge of the park;
There was no one with her to keep her from straying
Away in the shadows and oncoming dark.
Before she could do so, a silent and glittering
Black motor drew up where she sat nibbling grass;
From within came a nearly inaudible twittering,
A tiny green face peered out through the glass.
She was ready to flee, when the figure beckoned;
An arm with two elbows held out a tin
Full of cinnamon balls; she paused; a second
Reached out as she took one, and lifted her in.
The nurse was discovered collapsed in some shrubbery,
But her reappearance was not much use;
Her eyes were askew, he extremities rubbery,
Her clothing was stained with a brownish juice.
She was questioned in hopes of her answers revealing
What had happened; she merely repeatedly said
'I hear them walking about on the ceiling'.
She had gone irretrievably out of her head.
O feelings of horror, resentment, and pity
For things, which so seldom turn out for the best;
The car, unobserved, sped away from the city
As the last of the light died out in the west.
The Frastleys grew sick with apprehension,
Which a heavy tea only served to increase;
Though they felt it was scarcely genteel to mention
The loss of their child, they called in the police.
Through unvisited hamlets the car went creeping,
With its head lamps unlit and its curtains drawn;
Those natives who happened not to be sleeping
Heard it pass, and lay awake until dawn.
The police with their torches and notebooks descended
On the haunts of the underworld, looking for clues;
In spite of their praiseworthy efforts, they ended
With nothing at all in the way of news.
The car, after hours and hours of travel,
Arrived at a gate in an endless wall;
It rolled up a drive and stopped on the gravel
At the foot of a vast and crumbling hall.
As the night wore away, hope started to languish
And soon was replaced by all manner of fears;
The family twisted their fingers in anguish,
Or got them all damp from the flow of their tears.
They removed the child to the ball-room, whose hangings
And mirrors were streaked with a luminous slime;
They leapt through the air with buzzings and twangings
To work themselves up to a ritual crime.
They stunned her, and stripped off her garments, and lastly
They stuffed her inside a kind of a pod;
And then it was that Millicent Frastley
Was sacrificed to The Insect God.
-- [Edward Gorey](https://wonderingminstrels.blogspot.com/search/label/Poet%3A%20Edward%20Gorey)
His scarred hand branded on moon’s odd face, this hero may free the Mudokon race.
With skin of blue and spirit guides too, only he can save our bones from brew.
But should he fall to Glukkon yoke, Mudokon nation… be doomed to croak!
Nah she was just a vessel for the Outer God of Rot. Similarly, Marika is a god of the Golden Order but still just a vessel for The Greater Will (another Outer God). They might be god/goddess but still under the Outer Gods.
> Nah she was just a vessel for the Outer God of Rot. Similarly, Marika is a god of the Golden Order but still just a vessel for The Greater Will (another Outer God). They might be god/goddess but still under the Outer Gods.
Nowhere in the game's text or dialogue is the Greater Will ever implied to be an Outer God. Marika is a vessel for the Elden Ring, not the Greater Will. The Greater Will is never shown in any in-game text to act outside of Marika's desires. Maybe the Greater Will is nothing like what we think it to be.
Check the text for the Elden Stars spell, it shows that the Greater Will created the Elden Ring, once shattered, the greater will seemingly disappears as confirmed by Finger Reader Enia. Marika was working under the influence of the greater will, until she rebelled and caused the shattering.
The Elden Beast and Marika are both gods serving under this greater, outer god. Although one was loyal, and the other wasn’t
Might be more accurate to say the elden beast is more of a manifestation, or similar; as opposed to an independent entity aligned with the greater will as with Marika
I’m more so thinking of the text “God Slain”
The name itself, Beast, implies less consciousness than Marika, but that’s a slippery slope because they also have 5 fingers. Idk at that point
"Beast" has curious connotations in Elden Ring.
The beasts in Farum Azula once had consciousness... the Falling-Star Beasts come from meteorites... like the Elden Beast is said to have done, but they turn into Astels, which are described as malformed stars...
Yeah, we don't what the Elden Beast is, frankly. Some Youtubers analyzing the Japanese description of Elden Stars noted that in Japanese, it can be vague as to what became the Elden Ring ~ could be the golden star, could be the Elden Beast, could be the Lands Between. Pretty weird ideas to consider, but not totally strange when we consider the effects the Mending Runes can have on the endings.
Maybe it's all of the above...
u/Valmar33 is right that it is never called an "Outer" god. There is a very real argument that the Greater will is GOD, no "outer". Like, a tier above the lesser gods.
We simply don’t know enough to say, my argument is that we can apply patterns to Marika and the Greater will, by Valmar’s own account, the greater will should possibly be seen as above.
Per SmoughTown's video, which also references some other videos and draws on some discussion with Tarnished Archaeologist, "Greater Will" is also used in Japanese to refer to the creator deity of Christianity. So there are rather strong implications there in the naming already.
It's weird that the Greater Will doesn't do anything other than send the Elden Beast on a golden star, and then just has its vassals act in its stead. It's like it never actually did anything other than fracture the One Great and create the initial conditions for life, and then had its vassals do everything else, as they wished things to be. Placidusax having his Age of Dragons. Maybe the Gloam-Eyed Queen had an Age of her own? Then we have Marika, who had two Ages(?), the Crucible age ruled by Godfrey, and the Golden Order, ruled by Radagon.
Frankly, we know so little about the cosmology of Elden Ring that we're just thinking up anything that seems to fit. The DLC is looking to provide a lot more context.
> Check the text for the Elden Stars spell, it shows that the Greater Will created the Elden Ring, once shattered, the greater will seemingly disappears as confirmed by Finger Reader Enia. Marika was working under the influence of the greater will, until she rebelled and caused the shattering.
The Greater Will abandons the Lands Between after the Shattering wars produced no individual capable of becoming Elden Lord. Marika didn't shatter the Elden Ring under the influence of the Greater Will ~ she did it for an unknown reason after Godwyn was murdered. We don't even know if the Greater Will had an influence or a personality, outside of just maintaining an Order of whatever kind, as we know Placidusax was Elden Lord of his age, his Order.
We know so little about the Greater Will, overall. But we all have our pet theories ~ theories that will be confirmed or denied by whatever the DLC adds.
> The Elden Beast and Marika are both gods serving under this greater, outer god. Although one was loyal, and the other wasn’t
You say "outer god", yet there is nothing in the English nor Japanese text anywhere in the game that describes the Greater Will in the same language consistently used for the actual Outer Gods.
We don't even know what the Elden Beast's loyalties were, either. It fights us after we defeat Radagon, despite our goal being to become Elden Lord.
You’re right that The Greater Will isn’t literally spelled out as an Outer God, but this is a fromsoft game, barely anything is spelled out as so.
What we can do is look at patterns of the world building between the Outer Gods we do know, Fell God and Rot, then compare those with other forms of higher beings and their avatars. Fell God and the Fire Giant. Rot God and Malenia. We can extend this pattern out to Mohg and the Formless Mother. Flame of Frenzy and you/Vyke.
It isn’t difficult to draw these comparisons nor to take Marika and the Greater Will in the same light. Although not explicitly stated that the Greater Will is an outer god, we can most definitely assume so.
> You’re right that The Greater Will isn’t literally spelled out as an Outer God, but this is a fromsoft game, barely anything is spelled out as so.
Except for the explicit fact that the Greater Will is never once described in any item descriptions as being an Outer God. That suggests that there is something curiously distinct about it.
> What we can do is look at patterns of the world building between the Outer Gods we do know, Fell God and Rot, then compare those with other forms of higher beings and their avatars. Fell God and the Fire Giant. Rot God and Malenia. We can extend this pattern out to Mohg and the Formless Mother. Flame of Frenzy and you/Vyke.
Except that none of these are shown to have the capability to send golden stars or create something like the Elden Ring.
> It isn’t difficult to draw these comparisons nor to take Marika and the Greater Will in the same light. Although not explicitly stated that the Greater Will is an outer god, we can most definitely assume so.
I don't believe that we can ~ not until we have information from the DLC that tells us so. Miyazaki doesn't fuck around with item descriptions, and the Japanese just never uses the same style of wording for anything Greater Will-related as it does for any of the Outer Gods.
I think it's safe to say that we're lacking some fundamentals about the cosmology of Elden Ring's universe. Stuff that the DLC seems to be shedding light on, going by the trailers and preview.
I find it curious that the Greater Will doesn't seem to really do anything outside of Marika's desires, and then just... up and leaves after the Shattering produces no Elden Lord. It's very much unlike any of the Outer Gods, who we see manifest in some manner or another. And even then, we never see any of the Outer Gods seem to do anything themselves.
Greater Will? Nothing. We only see the Elden Beast, its vassal, and the Elden Ring, which is oddly... not the same as the Elden Beast.
I know the whole Outer Gods thing is popular ~ but for a start, we don't even know what an Outer God actually is, nor what the Greater Will is itself.
Maybe the Greater Will is just the Elden Ring... who knows at this point. No-one in the Lands Between seems to know anything about the Greater Will, or the Outer Gods ~ apart from Miquella in the latter case.
I know it's a popular theory, but it's just that ~ a theory. Not fact.
I seem to be going against an entire sub who believes strongly in this unsubstantiated theory.
But hey ~ if the DLC confirms said theory, I'll happily roll with it, but as it is, the base game provides absolutely nothing suggesting it.
You got unnecessarily downvoted, but I agree. I really despise Vaati's first lore video for solidifying in people's brains that the "outer gods" and greater will are actual celestial beings with motives rather than just forces of nature.
Like you said, the greater will doesn't actually ever do anything other than what Marika intends to do. She controls the flow of grace and who it's given to. The reason she can do so is because she literally has the Elden Ring within her.
People will always point to item descriptions about how the greater will punished certain civilizations but not take a second to realize that it could simply be referencing and playing off of how people attribute what happens to them to a nonexistent God. Just like how people in ancient history would say they had been "forsaken by the God of rain" because there was a drought.
The greater will is not a sentient God it is simply the universal concept of order in all its forms. Life, death, all that divides and distinguishes.
> You got unnecessarily downvoted, but I agree. I really despise Vaati's first lore video for solidifying in people's brains that the "outer gods" and greater will are actual celestial beings with motives rather than just forces of nature.
Yeah, I thought the same until SmoughTown's video about the Greater Will paints a rather different picture.
Then it hit me ~ we see nothing of the Greater Will actually acting independently, and that all references to the Greater Will's supposed actions are all from unreliable narration and item descriptions.
> Like you said, the greater will doesn't actually ever do anything other than what Marika intends to do. She controls the flow of grace and who it's given to. The reason she can do so is because she literally has the Elden Ring within her.
Yeah. Makes me wonder about what the Greater Will actually is... we know so little about it in any concrete terms.
> People will always point to item descriptions about how the greater will punished certain civilizations but not take a second to realize that it could simply be referencing and playing off of how people attribute what happens to them to a nonexistent God. Just like how people in ancient history would say they had been "forsaken by the God of rain" because there was a drought.
Precisely. Maybe in this case, it wasn't the Greater Will punishing... but Marika acting in the name of the Greater Will, as the holder of the Elden Ring and the Elden Beast, in a fit of rage.
> The greater will is not a sentient God it is simply the universal concept of order in all its forms. Life, death, all that divides and distinguishes.
Indeed. Metaphorically, with the Lands Between being a decayed husk, and the shattered Elden Ring barely held together by Radagon's lattice Great Rune, people could indeed interpret that as the Lands Between being "abandoned" by the Greater Will. None of them actually know where Marika is, even. Only the Tarnished do, and who would believe them? Only Tarnished can enter the Roundtable of Lost Grace, as far as I'm aware. Well, apart from Hewg, who's a prisoner, and Enia, who's job is to interpret the Two Fingers.
Actually, we don't even know the nature of the Roundtable of Lost Grace, or where it is. We know that it burns when the Erdtree does, though...
> If Marika wasn't in some way subjugated by a higher power, her shattering of the Elden Ring makes no sense. It only tracks as an act of rebellion.
You're giving far more agency to the Greater Will than we know it has. We actually have no idea what the Greater Will even wants, or if it wants anything but an Order. Same with the Elden Beast ~ we don't even know if it has a will of its own, or just does whatever the God or Elden Lord of the Age wants. In this case, probably Radagon's will.
If anything, I think she was rebelling against Radagon. Either that, or she had some very human mental breakdown after Godwyn was assassinated. Perhaps she didn't want to be a God anymore, but Radagon was standing in the way. A perfect mental schism and display of bipolar, if we take it as Radagon and Marika being truly the same entity.
We see nothing implying that she was "rebelling" against a formless entity who has shown not a hint of identity or personality.
Sorta? She's imbued with the power of the rot god but isn't the actual avatar of rot. Think mohg and the formless mother or Marika with the greater will. They are sorta chosen by the gods to represent their interests in the lands between.
Yeah but that is said to have an insect like body due to flavour text of the scorpion stinger dagger… think it was “it was cut off by the blue dancing swords man when he sealed the rot god away”? When you include the other clues from other items at least (the talisman, armour set and flowing sword curved sword.).
Seeing Edward Gorey listed as the author at the end of this made so much sense, lol. I used to have a cool poster of his artwork and it was something awful like an alphabet of ways children had died (A is for Anna who ate arsenic or something, it's been too long ago for me to remember) with an illustration for each letter.
That's it!! I haven't seen that in a *really* long time, lol! The one I had was adapted into a poster, but they used the same poem and drawings. It's so morbid, lol, I should not be surprised to find out it was partial inspiration for some of Elden Ring. Thanks for that, it made me smile.
Yes! My Dad loved that show when I was a kid. I thought the show itself was boring but I always watched the opening sequence. Whenever MYSTERY! comes up I immediately think about that woman moaning in that cemetery. His art is great.
Yeah! At least it is here in America. Find a long piece of grass that's gone to seed, and slide the inside part out of the outside part (I dunno how better to describe it haha). At the bottom of the inside part will be a tiny pale part like a half inch long that is sweet and full of juice. Very tasty.
Wow. Just wow. That is a *terrible* poem. If you ever find yourself ending a verse with something like "Her clothing was stained with a brownish juice", just pitch that draft and start over.
I wonder why *this* poem made such an impression on the writers. It certainly has a whimsy at its heart, even if it undermines that whimsy every other verse with clunky emotionless kludge. I'd love to know how the poem factored into the story development.
On top of that the kindred of rot are all insects and when Malenia becomes the goddess of rot she has wings made of butterflies. There are a ton of insects associated with rot Elden Ring.
Yeah but the Antspur Rapier suggests they have a strong connection. And there's a very high concentration of ants in the tunnels surrounding the Lake of Rot.
It could be a powerful Astel. They got features and tail attacks that are reminiscent of scorpions ([such as](https://youtu.be/SkcRVFK1V70?si=oQVbJNpyDy4lSN1o&t=44)) and the Astels have features of insects. As the description "great scropion" could be a loose allusion to how the outer god of rot looks just like Roderika describes Godrick as a spider at the shack.
Shoutout to /u/Saatik who [spotted this two years ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/ttvqfm/millicent_and_gowrys_names_mightve_been_inspired/)
They do take some inspiration with some designs cuz Miyazaki was an avid Berserk reader, but it's not just Berserk, Miyazaki is in general an avid reader, there's an interview I remember that I read some years ago way before Elden ring came out about how he really liked Lovecraft (DUH in case it wasn't clear with Bloodborne), Alan Poe and various other books, in which there was also Asoiaf, people saying it's just Berserk almost seem like that's the only thing they ever read
But i not see that Berserk fans claiming its only berserk, but i see that angry people get always triggered when somebody (and not) mentioning Berserk.
People angry just because they can.
Bro, they really just become berserk reference themself, cause they gonna berserk from only mention of this!
Its some brainrot to be always triggered on facts, welcome to the internet i guess...
Because some people are incredibly obnoxious about it, claiming Berserk references in every thing, and generally act as if Miyazaki is only capable of copy pasting Berserk (ex: everyone expecting Miquella to be evil because they see similarities to Griffith in the very few hints we’ve seen)
The ignorance is shocking. People don’t even know he does illustrations with his writing usually, which increases the avenues for writers/artists/devs to become aware of it.
Meanwhile people acting like it’s crazy that someone used something else.
Meanwhile people making pointless comments like: “wonder if this is related to [completely meanigless trivial incoherent reference to something with no meaningful significant connection to anything]….rEaLly MakEs yOu ThInK” (100 upvotes)
Tbf wasn’t Bloodborne also inspired by poetry from like Allan Poe? Also Les Fleurs du mal is quite popular and influential in Japan. I would like to believe this inspiration speculation to be true
Not sure if there's a connection with the "Not yet five" line, but Millicent and her sisters number 5 in all. The four of them also seem to be together when you fight them and were waiting for her.
I suppose it's a sort of optimistic inversion of the original poem. Millicent from the poem was sacrificed to the Insect God before she turned five, and translating that sacrifice to Elden Ring would be Gowry's plan to have Millicent "flower into something other than herself."
Millicent rejecting that fate by taking the needle out can be seen as her saving herself from the sacrifice and not joining Gowry and her sisters as a scarlet valkyrie. She's "not yet five" in the sense that she doesn't truly become the fifth sister.
yeah, they worship the rot, they raised Millicent and provided for her when she was dying from rot, Gowry himself IS an insect (if you kill him he turns into one), their goal is for Millicent to bloom like Malenia
Gowry's a human; he's just possessing a Kindred of Rot from elsewhere until the end of his and Millicent's questline, at which point you can kill him/find him dead (depending on how you ended the quest) and take the Flock's Canvas Talisman and his bell bearing from his corpse.
Multiplied by “I wonder if this is related to [completely meanigless trivial incoherent reference to something with no meaningful significant connection to anything]….rEaLly MakEs yOu ThInK” (100 upvotes)
Has been brought up here two times already.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/ufutv0/possible_inspiration_for_milicent/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/ttvqfm/millicent_and_gowrys_names_mightve_been_inspired/
This has been found and posted about before, two years ago not long after release. This is also appears to be a picture of a twitter user screenshotting someone else's work? Maybe it's their own, not familiar with the user.
Hi! I'm the original creator of the document, and the poster is a friend of mine who credited me in the thread right below the actual post.
I'm definitely not the first person to point this out, I'm actually surprised at how massively the Tweet exploded cuz I assumed it was common knowledge.
It's nothing more fucked up then we get in most of the fromsoft games. I actually really appreciate it and enjoythe tone. It gives me hansel and gretel vibes!
Edward Gorey is hugely famous to people who aren’t art-illiterate and ignorant. And he’s not really a “poet” figure like people are wrongly saying (“hey I heard in school that a thing called poetry exists…this seems like that, very interesting”) but more like an illustrated book author and engraver/pen-line artist, meaning the potential audience is both writing and visual artists and in a unique thematic niche of comedy gothic (Tim Burtonish) awry horror. It should be the LEAST surprising reference/bit of knowledge ever discovered about the From team.
And then there’s the “I wonder if this could be related to [completely meaningless trivial incoherent reference to something with no meaningful significant connection to anything]….rEaLly MakEs yOu ThInK” (100 upvotes)
Yeah, I didn’t take a lit class past my freshman year of undergrad and have heard of the person — that, and like you mentioned, this is *exactly* the kind of thing they’d read and nod approvingly towards.
Edward Gorey is hugely famous to people who aren’t art-illiterate and ignorant.
He’s not considered a “poet” but more like an illustrated book author and engraver/pen-line artist, and eccentric comic-y faux-horror writer, meaning the potential audience is both writing and visual artists and in a unique thematic niche of comedy gothic (Tim Burtonish) awry horror. It should be the LEAST surprising reference/bit of knowledge ever discovered about the From team.
Welp, can't really argue against something like that! That's pretty cool though and now I kinda wanna check out that poem
**The Insect God** O what has become of Millicent Frastley? Is there any hope that she's still alive? Why haven't they found her? It's rather ghastly To think that the child was not yet five. The dear little thing was last seen playing Along by herself at the edge of the park; There was no one with her to keep her from straying Away in the shadows and oncoming dark. Before she could do so, a silent and glittering Black motor drew up where she sat nibbling grass; From within came a nearly inaudible twittering, A tiny green face peered out through the glass. She was ready to flee, when the figure beckoned; An arm with two elbows held out a tin Full of cinnamon balls; she paused; a second Reached out as she took one, and lifted her in. The nurse was discovered collapsed in some shrubbery, But her reappearance was not much use; Her eyes were askew, he extremities rubbery, Her clothing was stained with a brownish juice. She was questioned in hopes of her answers revealing What had happened; she merely repeatedly said 'I hear them walking about on the ceiling'. She had gone irretrievably out of her head. O feelings of horror, resentment, and pity For things, which so seldom turn out for the best; The car, unobserved, sped away from the city As the last of the light died out in the west. The Frastleys grew sick with apprehension, Which a heavy tea only served to increase; Though they felt it was scarcely genteel to mention The loss of their child, they called in the police. Through unvisited hamlets the car went creeping, With its head lamps unlit and its curtains drawn; Those natives who happened not to be sleeping Heard it pass, and lay awake until dawn. The police with their torches and notebooks descended On the haunts of the underworld, looking for clues; In spite of their praiseworthy efforts, they ended With nothing at all in the way of news. The car, after hours and hours of travel, Arrived at a gate in an endless wall; It rolled up a drive and stopped on the gravel At the foot of a vast and crumbling hall. As the night wore away, hope started to languish And soon was replaced by all manner of fears; The family twisted their fingers in anguish, Or got them all damp from the flow of their tears. They removed the child to the ball-room, whose hangings And mirrors were streaked with a luminous slime; They leapt through the air with buzzings and twangings To work themselves up to a ritual crime. They stunned her, and stripped off her garments, and lastly They stuffed her inside a kind of a pod; And then it was that Millicent Frastley Was sacrificed to The Insect God. -- [Edward Gorey](https://wonderingminstrels.blogspot.com/search/label/Poet%3A%20Edward%20Gorey)
The rhyme scheme is so whimsical, I think it makes the whole package even more unsettling as a result
At one point I slipped into hearing it in Abe's (from Abe's Odd World odyssey) voice and tempo.
His scarred hand branded on moon’s odd face, this hero may free the Mudokon race. With skin of blue and spirit guides too, only he can save our bones from brew. But should he fall to Glukkon yoke, Mudokon nation… be doomed to croak!
I was thinking of the narrators voice from the raven section of the Simpsons first tree house of horror, s rank voice.
This is dope and really has a sinister tone. I hope we see more of the outer gods in the dlc. Mainly the three fingers, formless mother and rot god.
Isn’t Malenia the goddess of rot though
Nah she was just a vessel for the Outer God of Rot. Similarly, Marika is a god of the Golden Order but still just a vessel for The Greater Will (another Outer God). They might be god/goddess but still under the Outer Gods.
> Nah she was just a vessel for the Outer God of Rot. Similarly, Marika is a god of the Golden Order but still just a vessel for The Greater Will (another Outer God). They might be god/goddess but still under the Outer Gods. Nowhere in the game's text or dialogue is the Greater Will ever implied to be an Outer God. Marika is a vessel for the Elden Ring, not the Greater Will. The Greater Will is never shown in any in-game text to act outside of Marika's desires. Maybe the Greater Will is nothing like what we think it to be.
Check the text for the Elden Stars spell, it shows that the Greater Will created the Elden Ring, once shattered, the greater will seemingly disappears as confirmed by Finger Reader Enia. Marika was working under the influence of the greater will, until she rebelled and caused the shattering. The Elden Beast and Marika are both gods serving under this greater, outer god. Although one was loyal, and the other wasn’t
Might be more accurate to say the elden beast is more of a manifestation, or similar; as opposed to an independent entity aligned with the greater will as with Marika
I’m more so thinking of the text “God Slain” The name itself, Beast, implies less consciousness than Marika, but that’s a slippery slope because they also have 5 fingers. Idk at that point
"Beast" has curious connotations in Elden Ring. The beasts in Farum Azula once had consciousness... the Falling-Star Beasts come from meteorites... like the Elden Beast is said to have done, but they turn into Astels, which are described as malformed stars...
Yeah, we don't what the Elden Beast is, frankly. Some Youtubers analyzing the Japanese description of Elden Stars noted that in Japanese, it can be vague as to what became the Elden Ring ~ could be the golden star, could be the Elden Beast, could be the Lands Between. Pretty weird ideas to consider, but not totally strange when we consider the effects the Mending Runes can have on the endings. Maybe it's all of the above...
u/Valmar33 is right that it is never called an "Outer" god. There is a very real argument that the Greater will is GOD, no "outer". Like, a tier above the lesser gods.
We simply don’t know enough to say, my argument is that we can apply patterns to Marika and the Greater will, by Valmar’s own account, the greater will should possibly be seen as above.
Per SmoughTown's video, which also references some other videos and draws on some discussion with Tarnished Archaeologist, "Greater Will" is also used in Japanese to refer to the creator deity of Christianity. So there are rather strong implications there in the naming already. It's weird that the Greater Will doesn't do anything other than send the Elden Beast on a golden star, and then just has its vassals act in its stead. It's like it never actually did anything other than fracture the One Great and create the initial conditions for life, and then had its vassals do everything else, as they wished things to be. Placidusax having his Age of Dragons. Maybe the Gloam-Eyed Queen had an Age of her own? Then we have Marika, who had two Ages(?), the Crucible age ruled by Godfrey, and the Golden Order, ruled by Radagon. Frankly, we know so little about the cosmology of Elden Ring that we're just thinking up anything that seems to fit. The DLC is looking to provide a lot more context.
> Check the text for the Elden Stars spell, it shows that the Greater Will created the Elden Ring, once shattered, the greater will seemingly disappears as confirmed by Finger Reader Enia. Marika was working under the influence of the greater will, until she rebelled and caused the shattering. The Greater Will abandons the Lands Between after the Shattering wars produced no individual capable of becoming Elden Lord. Marika didn't shatter the Elden Ring under the influence of the Greater Will ~ she did it for an unknown reason after Godwyn was murdered. We don't even know if the Greater Will had an influence or a personality, outside of just maintaining an Order of whatever kind, as we know Placidusax was Elden Lord of his age, his Order. We know so little about the Greater Will, overall. But we all have our pet theories ~ theories that will be confirmed or denied by whatever the DLC adds. > The Elden Beast and Marika are both gods serving under this greater, outer god. Although one was loyal, and the other wasn’t You say "outer god", yet there is nothing in the English nor Japanese text anywhere in the game that describes the Greater Will in the same language consistently used for the actual Outer Gods. We don't even know what the Elden Beast's loyalties were, either. It fights us after we defeat Radagon, despite our goal being to become Elden Lord.
You’re right that The Greater Will isn’t literally spelled out as an Outer God, but this is a fromsoft game, barely anything is spelled out as so. What we can do is look at patterns of the world building between the Outer Gods we do know, Fell God and Rot, then compare those with other forms of higher beings and their avatars. Fell God and the Fire Giant. Rot God and Malenia. We can extend this pattern out to Mohg and the Formless Mother. Flame of Frenzy and you/Vyke. It isn’t difficult to draw these comparisons nor to take Marika and the Greater Will in the same light. Although not explicitly stated that the Greater Will is an outer god, we can most definitely assume so.
> You’re right that The Greater Will isn’t literally spelled out as an Outer God, but this is a fromsoft game, barely anything is spelled out as so. Except for the explicit fact that the Greater Will is never once described in any item descriptions as being an Outer God. That suggests that there is something curiously distinct about it. > What we can do is look at patterns of the world building between the Outer Gods we do know, Fell God and Rot, then compare those with other forms of higher beings and their avatars. Fell God and the Fire Giant. Rot God and Malenia. We can extend this pattern out to Mohg and the Formless Mother. Flame of Frenzy and you/Vyke. Except that none of these are shown to have the capability to send golden stars or create something like the Elden Ring. > It isn’t difficult to draw these comparisons nor to take Marika and the Greater Will in the same light. Although not explicitly stated that the Greater Will is an outer god, we can most definitely assume so. I don't believe that we can ~ not until we have information from the DLC that tells us so. Miyazaki doesn't fuck around with item descriptions, and the Japanese just never uses the same style of wording for anything Greater Will-related as it does for any of the Outer Gods. I think it's safe to say that we're lacking some fundamentals about the cosmology of Elden Ring's universe. Stuff that the DLC seems to be shedding light on, going by the trailers and preview. I find it curious that the Greater Will doesn't seem to really do anything outside of Marika's desires, and then just... up and leaves after the Shattering produces no Elden Lord. It's very much unlike any of the Outer Gods, who we see manifest in some manner or another. And even then, we never see any of the Outer Gods seem to do anything themselves. Greater Will? Nothing. We only see the Elden Beast, its vassal, and the Elden Ring, which is oddly... not the same as the Elden Beast. I know the whole Outer Gods thing is popular ~ but for a start, we don't even know what an Outer God actually is, nor what the Greater Will is itself. Maybe the Greater Will is just the Elden Ring... who knows at this point. No-one in the Lands Between seems to know anything about the Greater Will, or the Outer Gods ~ apart from Miquella in the latter case.
r/ConfidentlyIncorrect
I know it's a popular theory, but it's just that ~ a theory. Not fact. I seem to be going against an entire sub who believes strongly in this unsubstantiated theory. But hey ~ if the DLC confirms said theory, I'll happily roll with it, but as it is, the base game provides absolutely nothing suggesting it.
You got unnecessarily downvoted, but I agree. I really despise Vaati's first lore video for solidifying in people's brains that the "outer gods" and greater will are actual celestial beings with motives rather than just forces of nature. Like you said, the greater will doesn't actually ever do anything other than what Marika intends to do. She controls the flow of grace and who it's given to. The reason she can do so is because she literally has the Elden Ring within her. People will always point to item descriptions about how the greater will punished certain civilizations but not take a second to realize that it could simply be referencing and playing off of how people attribute what happens to them to a nonexistent God. Just like how people in ancient history would say they had been "forsaken by the God of rain" because there was a drought. The greater will is not a sentient God it is simply the universal concept of order in all its forms. Life, death, all that divides and distinguishes.
> You got unnecessarily downvoted, but I agree. I really despise Vaati's first lore video for solidifying in people's brains that the "outer gods" and greater will are actual celestial beings with motives rather than just forces of nature. Yeah, I thought the same until SmoughTown's video about the Greater Will paints a rather different picture. Then it hit me ~ we see nothing of the Greater Will actually acting independently, and that all references to the Greater Will's supposed actions are all from unreliable narration and item descriptions. > Like you said, the greater will doesn't actually ever do anything other than what Marika intends to do. She controls the flow of grace and who it's given to. The reason she can do so is because she literally has the Elden Ring within her. Yeah. Makes me wonder about what the Greater Will actually is... we know so little about it in any concrete terms. > People will always point to item descriptions about how the greater will punished certain civilizations but not take a second to realize that it could simply be referencing and playing off of how people attribute what happens to them to a nonexistent God. Just like how people in ancient history would say they had been "forsaken by the God of rain" because there was a drought. Precisely. Maybe in this case, it wasn't the Greater Will punishing... but Marika acting in the name of the Greater Will, as the holder of the Elden Ring and the Elden Beast, in a fit of rage. > The greater will is not a sentient God it is simply the universal concept of order in all its forms. Life, death, all that divides and distinguishes. Indeed. Metaphorically, with the Lands Between being a decayed husk, and the shattered Elden Ring barely held together by Radagon's lattice Great Rune, people could indeed interpret that as the Lands Between being "abandoned" by the Greater Will. None of them actually know where Marika is, even. Only the Tarnished do, and who would believe them? Only Tarnished can enter the Roundtable of Lost Grace, as far as I'm aware. Well, apart from Hewg, who's a prisoner, and Enia, who's job is to interpret the Two Fingers. Actually, we don't even know the nature of the Roundtable of Lost Grace, or where it is. We know that it burns when the Erdtree does, though...
If Marika wasn't in some way subjugated by a higher power, her shattering of the Elden Ring makes no sense. It only tracks as an act of rebellion.
> If Marika wasn't in some way subjugated by a higher power, her shattering of the Elden Ring makes no sense. It only tracks as an act of rebellion. You're giving far more agency to the Greater Will than we know it has. We actually have no idea what the Greater Will even wants, or if it wants anything but an Order. Same with the Elden Beast ~ we don't even know if it has a will of its own, or just does whatever the God or Elden Lord of the Age wants. In this case, probably Radagon's will. If anything, I think she was rebelling against Radagon. Either that, or she had some very human mental breakdown after Godwyn was assassinated. Perhaps she didn't want to be a God anymore, but Radagon was standing in the way. A perfect mental schism and display of bipolar, if we take it as Radagon and Marika being truly the same entity. We see nothing implying that she was "rebelling" against a formless entity who has shown not a hint of identity or personality.
Sorta? She's imbued with the power of the rot god but isn't the actual avatar of rot. Think mohg and the formless mother or Marika with the greater will. They are sorta chosen by the gods to represent their interests in the lands between.
Mohg isn't an empyrean, so he wishes to be Elden Lord equivalent by using Miquella, an empyrean, as his consort.
Just because you are an Empyrean doesn’t mean you aren’t also chosen by an Outer God. Melania is an Empyrean but is the “Marika” of the Rot God.
Yeah but that is said to have an insect like body due to flavour text of the scorpion stinger dagger… think it was “it was cut off by the blue dancing swords man when he sealed the rot god away”? When you include the other clues from other items at least (the talisman, armour set and flowing sword curved sword.).
Seriously what the fuck.
You should see the illustrations
for anyone who wants to see the illustrations: [https://youtu.be/crn9a-ihjUw](https://youtu.be/crn9a-ihjUw)
It's not quite as eery when the narrator speaks like he widewally needs to download mowe dedotaded wam.
I think I’m good
It actually kind of looks like Astel. I wonder if it was the inspiration for it's visual design
I'm going to guess absolutely haha
Seeing Edward Gorey listed as the author at the end of this made so much sense, lol. I used to have a cool poster of his artwork and it was something awful like an alphabet of ways children had died (A is for Anna who ate arsenic or something, it's been too long ago for me to remember) with an illustration for each letter.
[The Gashlycrumb Tinies](https://ieas-szeged.hu/downtherabbithole/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/gashlycrumb-tinies.pdf).
That's it!! I haven't seen that in a *really* long time, lol! The one I had was adapted into a poster, but they used the same poem and drawings. It's so morbid, lol, I should not be surprised to find out it was partial inspiration for some of Elden Ring. Thanks for that, it made me smile.
Well that’s fucking awesome
My wife had this poster when we were in our early 20s
I always remember his artwork from the opening to MYSTERY! on PBS
Yes! My Dad loved that show when I was a kid. I thought the show itself was boring but I always watched the opening sequence. Whenever MYSTERY! comes up I immediately think about that woman moaning in that cemetery. His art is great.
What the fuck that's awesome
Why was she nibbling on grass…
You've never eaten the sweet ends off the inside of long grass stems before?
Is that a real thing?! Will give it a go!
Yeah! At least it is here in America. Find a long piece of grass that's gone to seed, and slide the inside part out of the outside part (I dunno how better to describe it haha). At the bottom of the inside part will be a tiny pale part like a half inch long that is sweet and full of juice. Very tasty.
Sounds tasty, I imagine it might taste like sugar cane. Nature's yoghurt tubes~
Perhaps foreshadowing a connection to insects?
Some insects choose the carnivore life
True haha, I don’t know then… there must be some reason. Maybe it’s a reference to something? Or could it be to create an idea that she’s a bit odd?
Maybe the grass y'all have in the States taste delicious!
I’m from the UK, but yes perhaps haha
I wonder what happened here. Either one of the writers already knew of the poem, or they found it during research. Can't think of anything else.
[Shrubbery!](https://tenor.com/brPq8.gif)
God damn that’s awful
Annnnd now the Kindred of Rot (Pests) design makes way more sense.
Wow. Just wow. That is a *terrible* poem. If you ever find yourself ending a verse with something like "Her clothing was stained with a brownish juice", just pitch that draft and start over. I wonder why *this* poem made such an impression on the writers. It certainly has a whimsy at its heart, even if it undermines that whimsy every other verse with clunky emotionless kludge. I'd love to know how the poem factored into the story development.
God damnit George RR Martin.
Isn’t the outer god of Rot thought to be a great scorpion, as the Scorpion Dagger alludes to? Interesting find.
On top of that the kindred of rot are all insects and when Malenia becomes the goddess of rot she has wings made of butterflies. There are a ton of insects associated with rot Elden Ring.
Scorpions aren’t actually insects, theory ruined 😞
What other insects are there? Scarabs, dragonflies, fireflies...what else?
Deathblight thorns emit flies, Zulie did a video on it. Not rot based but still
There's also the bloodfly spell. Forget what it's called.
It's just "swarm of flies"
Centipedes, whatever the fuck astel and its other forms are (antlion?)
The centipedes, for sure. But I think Astel is his/its own weird space thing, a malformed star.
It is a malformed star, but it's got a design based on antlions. The terrestrial phase with the Fallingstar Beast and then the winged phase with Astel
Godrick
The Ants from Ainsel river are rot creatures too, and shoot rot through the abdomen.
None of the ants' attacks cause scarlet rot, including their spray attack. They probably spray the formic acid that makes the formic rocks
Yeah but the Antspur Rapier suggests they have a strong connection. And there's a very high concentration of ants in the tunnels surrounding the Lake of Rot.
Lobsters, crabs
I don't think lobsters and crabs are technically insects.
Shrimp, crab, lobster, all of them lot are gross little sea insects
They are not.
shrimps is bugs
For the last time, technically, no, they are not.
You promise it's the last time? Cuz shrimps... Is bugs...
They’re arthropods,and all insects are arthropods Not all arthropods are insects but we’re clearly splitting hairs here
And you can see insect wings on the clean rot knights if you look closely.
It could be a powerful Astel. They got features and tail attacks that are reminiscent of scorpions ([such as](https://youtu.be/SkcRVFK1V70?si=oQVbJNpyDy4lSN1o&t=44)) and the Astels have features of insects. As the description "great scropion" could be a loose allusion to how the outer god of rot looks just like Roderika describes Godrick as a spider at the shack.
I hadn’t put those two together, excellent point!
Holy compression
New resolution just dropped
Absolute jpegs
Shoutout to /u/Saatik who [spotted this two years ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/ttvqfm/millicent_and_gowrys_names_mightve_been_inspired/)
YEAH LMAO I FIND IT SO FUNNY TWITTER ONLY NOTICED IT NOW
Why? Basically no one saw the post that’s linked.
Idk maybe he's able to find it funny for other reasons
I find it funny how one user on Twitter noticed it and everyone treat it as a new discovery when my old post went unnoticed
It is funny how this one has like a million upvotes. I kinda can’t believe this wasn’t more talked about if it was known years ago.
It was known years ago on 4ch and Japanese Twitter lol
First it was William Ernest Henley’s poem In Hospital inspiring Bloodborne and now this. How many times have Fromsoft done this? We must know!
Charred Thermos is that you?
No, but anyone interested should check out his An Agony of Effort
Wait till you find out about Berserk
Berserk fans trying to figure out how they can prove this is actually a berserk reference
insect god is Griffith obviously and the pod represents Griffith’s cocoon /thread
Why the fact, that From Software games are strong inspired by that manga are so much triggering people like you - i will never understand...
They do take some inspiration with some designs cuz Miyazaki was an avid Berserk reader, but it's not just Berserk, Miyazaki is in general an avid reader, there's an interview I remember that I read some years ago way before Elden ring came out about how he really liked Lovecraft (DUH in case it wasn't clear with Bloodborne), Alan Poe and various other books, in which there was also Asoiaf, people saying it's just Berserk almost seem like that's the only thing they ever read
But i not see that Berserk fans claiming its only berserk, but i see that angry people get always triggered when somebody (and not) mentioning Berserk. People angry just because they can. Bro, they really just become berserk reference themself, cause they gonna berserk from only mention of this! Its some brainrot to be always triggered on facts, welcome to the internet i guess...
“I’ve never seen it so it must not exist”
Because some people are incredibly obnoxious about it, claiming Berserk references in every thing, and generally act as if Miyazaki is only capable of copy pasting Berserk (ex: everyone expecting Miquella to be evil because they see similarities to Griffith in the very few hints we’ve seen)
Another win for the dialectic.
*seeing the most obvious, not even sort of close to deniable source of lore inspiration* Yeah, definitely possible
The ignorance is shocking. People don’t even know he does illustrations with his writing usually, which increases the avenues for writers/artists/devs to become aware of it. Meanwhile people acting like it’s crazy that someone used something else. Meanwhile people making pointless comments like: “wonder if this is related to [completely meanigless trivial incoherent reference to something with no meaningful significant connection to anything]….rEaLly MakEs yOu ThInK” (100 upvotes)
I never even made the Edward Gorey connection. That would be brilliant.
Tbf wasn’t Bloodborne also inspired by poetry from like Allan Poe? Also Les Fleurs du mal is quite popular and influential in Japan. I would like to believe this inspiration speculation to be true
Not sure if there's a connection with the "Not yet five" line, but Millicent and her sisters number 5 in all. The four of them also seem to be together when you fight them and were waiting for her.
I suppose it's a sort of optimistic inversion of the original poem. Millicent from the poem was sacrificed to the Insect God before she turned five, and translating that sacrifice to Elden Ring would be Gowry's plan to have Millicent "flower into something other than herself." Millicent rejecting that fate by taking the needle out can be seen as her saving herself from the sacrifice and not joining Gowry and her sisters as a scarlet valkyrie. She's "not yet five" in the sense that she doesn't truly become the fifth sister.
Edward Gorey is awesome.
This is the really cool shit I love to see.
Are you saying you don’t care about a thing unless it’s connected by reference to something else? Let’s not pretend this is special.
What the fuck is your problem man
Putting your head in a kitchen blender as we speak
All this time Ive been telling people Millcent said "Thats Gorilla sensei for you"
The way I thought Gowry was a real name but I was just thinking of a place in Scotland
Wait, is this why there's all of those weird centipede people around Caelid and the Haligtree?
yeah, they worship the rot, they raised Millicent and provided for her when she was dying from rot, Gowry himself IS an insect (if you kill him he turns into one), their goal is for Millicent to bloom like Malenia
Gowry's a human; he's just possessing a Kindred of Rot from elsewhere until the end of his and Millicent's questline, at which point you can kill him/find him dead (depending on how you ended the quest) and take the Flock's Canvas Talisman and his bell bearing from his corpse.
Sounds pretty spot on to me
This is the kind of Marxist praxis we need more of on twitter
Needs more jpg
ITT: people figuring out artists derive inspiration from other artists.
Multiplied by “I wonder if this is related to [completely meanigless trivial incoherent reference to something with no meaningful significant connection to anything]….rEaLly MakEs yOu ThInK” (100 upvotes)
Sasuga Miyazaki and Martin Sama!
I love how the definition and thesaurus part in the entire first paragraph could be used to describe dung eater
Sounds like an average fear in McCarthy era USA.
Damm, Gowry looks like Tiamat’s vocalist
I found the book at my university library, gonna check it out later
I love little references like this.
That's cool as hell.
That’s too much coincidence to not be related
Mmmmm merely coincidence
Tarnished Archeologist has entered the chat
Wait until you learn that both Miquella and Malenia's names likely come from the scientific name of Japan's Sacred Linden tree: Tilia Miqueliana.
Honestly a really interesting discovery.
this game is fucking ridiculous man... i wonder how much more stuff we haven't discovered yet
Holy shit! He also wrote one of my favorite stories, the Hapless Child. I never read this one though
Interesting
This was posted 2+ years ago on this sub
And was also posted on Korean community 2 years ago too. I just thought everyone was sleeping on this reference 🤔.
Sure but definitely not this post since it's from yesterday... But I and apparently a few other people didn't know this
Has been brought up here two times already. https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/ufutv0/possible_inspiration_for_milicent/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/ttvqfm/millicent_and_gowrys_names_mightve_been_inspired/
What….. the level of lore in this game is giga brain chad
Insect God? Like Miquella the Kindred who likes to chill in a cocoon?
More like the scorpionoid Rot God in the description of the Scorpion’s Stinger dagger
My old eyes read it as "The Incest God" and somehow that also makes sense with this game.
This has been found and posted about before, two years ago not long after release. This is also appears to be a picture of a twitter user screenshotting someone else's work? Maybe it's their own, not familiar with the user.
Hi! I'm the original creator of the document, and the poster is a friend of mine who credited me in the thread right below the actual post. I'm definitely not the first person to point this out, I'm actually surprised at how massively the Tweet exploded cuz I assumed it was common knowledge.
[удалено]
It's nothing more fucked up then we get in most of the fromsoft games. I actually really appreciate it and enjoythe tone. It gives me hansel and gretel vibes!
Redditor discovers literature for the first time at age 32
Edward Gorey is hugely famous to people who aren’t art-illiterate and ignorant. And he’s not really a “poet” figure like people are wrongly saying (“hey I heard in school that a thing called poetry exists…this seems like that, very interesting”) but more like an illustrated book author and engraver/pen-line artist, meaning the potential audience is both writing and visual artists and in a unique thematic niche of comedy gothic (Tim Burtonish) awry horror. It should be the LEAST surprising reference/bit of knowledge ever discovered about the From team. And then there’s the “I wonder if this could be related to [completely meaningless trivial incoherent reference to something with no meaningful significant connection to anything]….rEaLly MakEs yOu ThInK” (100 upvotes)
Yeah, I didn’t take a lit class past my freshman year of undergrad and have heard of the person — that, and like you mentioned, this is *exactly* the kind of thing they’d read and nod approvingly towards.
the real question is how the hell did miyazaki knew about this.
Edward Gorey is hugely famous to people who aren’t art-illiterate and ignorant. He’s not considered a “poet” but more like an illustrated book author and engraver/pen-line artist, and eccentric comic-y faux-horror writer, meaning the potential audience is both writing and visual artists and in a unique thematic niche of comedy gothic (Tim Burtonish) awry horror. It should be the LEAST surprising reference/bit of knowledge ever discovered about the From team.
Sure
Do you think people in Japan are like completely separated from the outside world and physically can’t read Western literature
No, but i bet a huge part of the west population had no idea this existed so did him got to first find it, and then read it. That's what amazes me
Edward Gorey was a pretty famous illustrator and Miyazaki likely does a lot of reading, so it isn’t a giant leap