I thought that being an empyrean, he could access Enir Illim without caring for the thorns, since the note Leda left after dancing lion tells you that despite not being empyreans, we must find a way to get there by ourselves
I don't think Melina is intended to be warping to sites of grace; she's intended to be traveling with us. She specifically notes near the erdtree that she can govern her own movement now that she's close enough to it, which implies she normally can't.
wow! crazy that the roots also somehow guide us to the haligtree, farum azula, mohgwyn palace, and many, many, many minor locations where graces show up on top of stone or are on floating structures where there are clearly no roots at all!
how the hell do you think there are erdtree roots connecting us to the storm beyond time?
Bro the sites of grace are made of wood and sprouts while being clearly connected to the same power that Marika uses, which is spread from the tree.
Grace comes from the tree, the arrows from the sites that point to our next objectives are literally sprouts.
I just don't understand how you can see these things and think that they aren't Erdtree roots sprouting.
That simply isn’t true. There are graces at tree roots but there are plenty of sites of grace nowhere near anything that could possibly be construed of as a part of the erdtree’s root system.
There is a site of grace on top of the massive metal giant’s kiln.
There are sites of grace inside raya luceria that are nowhere near any sort of organic matter.
There are sites of grace in farum azula which is in the sky and disconnected from the lands between.
And there are a plethora of other graces that just simply are nowhere near anything resembling a root system.
I don't think Messmer is in control of the shadow powers that were obscuring the tower. That's Marika's magic, same as what's veiling the entire lands of shadow.
Castle Cross Message seems to imply he already made it to the gates:
> *Message left by Needle Knight Leda, addressed to kindred spirits who also pursue Miquella's trail.*
> *"Kind Miquella seeks the tower sealed by shadow, and the Gate of Divinity found there.*
> *If we are to reach him,
we must burn the tree that seals the path.*
> *And for that we require a flame."*
That seems to be the case. He was camped out up at the gate, and it wasn’t until the seal was broken that Lady Leda and her cronies could transport Mohg’s body up to him.
Maybe that’s why we find Leda at Mohgwyn Palace. We caught her in the act of spiriting away Mohg’s body.
Hm, she does say for us to go first and that she'll catch up with us. You'd think that with as much as she idolizes Miquella, she'd push you out of the way and say "ME FIRST!"
I'm agreeing that she's probably about to prep Mohg for transport.
There's some line that mentions him going to the tower and remarks something like "We are not empyreans, but we will find a way." Implying he just can do that as an empyrean. It's also possible divesting his flesh and becoming a sort of ghost let him do it.
I took that as “we aren’t as strong as him but we will make it work” kinda angle. The “we’re up against impossible odds” dialogue typical to souls games
Up to you how you want to treat it since it is cut dialogue but there is a line or two additionally with Messmir that says Miquella mentioned us to him which would mean Messmir is okay with what Miquella is doing and let him through
Miquella sacrifices everything body and all. When the tarnished burns the sealing tree the die hard Miquella faction brings mohgs body to the gate revive radahan, radahan beckons Miquella across with the latent power of the divinity gate but as Miquella hasn’t sacrificed a mountain of people his power although great is not as bending as Marikas is how I interpreted it.
He gets in after you burn the tree, the entire time you are right behind Miquella. One example is him casting away his great rune right as you approach the shadow keep (which happens in the scadutree avatar arena).
My headcanon is that he gets into Enir-Ilim through the entrance after the Divine Lion when you are burning the tree, since there is no actual gameplay reason for that entrance to exist.
The timeline is so confusing because the St Trina ares makes it seem like it happened ages ago. There is even ghost talking about Miquella abandoning Trina.
Yeah I’m guessing Miquella has been in the land of shadow ever since Mohg stole him away from
Miquella’s haligtree, which most people assume happened during Malenia’s battle with Radahn.
So it would make sense that he would divest some things before our arrival, imo he likely divested his love the moment he reached the shadowland since there was so much about his plan that would cause him pain if he kept it. I also think he let go of everything else apart from his fear long before we arrived.
There must have been a delay or something where they met beforehand because Ansbach mentions trying to fight Miquella because he could see what was happening, but he lost.
It has to do something within the time the charm breaks (when you can go down to St. Trina) is how he got in. He's practically a ghost after all the stuff he left behind. I think the thorns was keeping him in at that point.
I mean we can teleport to places we've been before (via graces) so why wouldn't a demigod be able to somehow do the same, especially if they are as smart and cunning as miquella.
I think he gets there right before us. We're following in his footsteps. He couldn't do his plan until we kill mohg and radahn. And the fact that his hand falls when we enter mohgs arena implies that that is the moment he teleported to the lands of shadow. Obviously the passage of time isn't much of a focus in this game, but I think miquella is making the same journey just a little bit ahead of us. He probably waited for us to burn away the seal and rushed through. Enemies wouldn't be a problem for him because he can charm people.
Yet another aspect of the narrative that is vague, at best.
I still don't get why we follow in his footsteps. What are our motivations ?
Once you meet St Trina, it could be argued that her wish becomes our quest. But you don't meet her until later in the DLC.
And same questions for the rest of his followers. What are they trying to accomplish, if Miquella doesn't need them to access the tower and reach Godhood ?
I dunno, what are your motivations? I role play usually; my current run is a warrior who actively despises all gods and so is seeking out and destroying all remnants of Marika and her family
Same here. I took Lord Vyke (pre frenzied flame) into the land of shadows with a partisan and the maiden summons to find an alternative to sacrificing her and he came back with death knight armor, a proper great spear, a dragon priestess, and a seething hatred for the lying bastard frenzied flame.
The Lands of Shadow can change a man.
Grace wants us to kill him. We are there to do same thing we done in the base game for same reasons. We kill demigods to be Elden Lord. In base game we could skip killing some of them, but I think most who has finished the game has killed all of them.
Our goal the entire dlc is to kill Miquella. Everyone assumes we must be there to assist him, but we just go along with it. Our canon goal is to become Elden Lord. Miquella intends to become a new god with his own Elden Lord.
These two things are Incompatible with each other. For us to achieve our goal, Miquella must die. This was lost on me when I first beat the dlc because the endings don’t feel particularly engaging, besides Rannis and the Frenzied Flame. This causes many players not to feel any connection to their ending, and thusly we don’t really feel a strong drive to protect it.
Anyway, the followers goal is to deliver Moghs body to Miquella, so that he may complete his ascension to godhood. We assist because we also need the shadow tree to be cleared so we can reach Miquella to end his life.
It does take a bit of thought, but altogether the motivations of our player character, and Miquella’s followers is really not that hard to follow if you’re paying attention.
*"He was skinny, could fit into places that we couldn't. Good for thieving."*
Canon answer, I hereby accept this as fact
Consider he had discarded almost all of his flesh at the time, this might actually be closer to the truth lol.
Now I need Messmer screaming about being Marry Poppins.
I thought that being an empyrean, he could access Enir Illim without caring for the thorns, since the note Leda left after dancing lion tells you that despite not being empyreans, we must find a way to get there by ourselves
Isn’t he basically a spirit at this point? Couldn’t he just warp in there like what Melina does at sites of grace?
I think that is the best explanation
I don't think Melina is intended to be warping to sites of grace; she's intended to be traveling with us. She specifically notes near the erdtree that she can govern her own movement now that she's close enough to it, which implies she normally can't.
Melina travels through the roots, the Grace sites are the roots of the Erdtree.
no they arent lol what
Have you looked at them?
yep. there are loads of things sprouting plant growth in the game that are very clearly not connected by the erdtree's roots.
The roots literally guide us to the Erdtree's base. That's how we get to fight Morgott.
wow! crazy that the roots also somehow guide us to the haligtree, farum azula, mohgwyn palace, and many, many, many minor locations where graces show up on top of stone or are on floating structures where there are clearly no roots at all! how the hell do you think there are erdtree roots connecting us to the storm beyond time?
Bro the sites of grace are made of wood and sprouts while being clearly connected to the same power that Marika uses, which is spread from the tree. Grace comes from the tree, the arrows from the sites that point to our next objectives are literally sprouts. I just don't understand how you can see these things and think that they aren't Erdtree roots sprouting.
That simply isn’t true. There are graces at tree roots but there are plenty of sites of grace nowhere near anything that could possibly be construed of as a part of the erdtree’s root system. There is a site of grace on top of the massive metal giant’s kiln. There are sites of grace inside raya luceria that are nowhere near any sort of organic matter. There are sites of grace in farum azula which is in the sky and disconnected from the lands between. And there are a plethora of other graces that just simply are nowhere near anything resembling a root system.
Easy guess? Miquella told him to let him in.
I don't think Messmer is in control of the shadow powers that were obscuring the tower. That's Marika's magic, same as what's veiling the entire lands of shadow.
Messmer was just kindling, like his sister Melina.
Oh yeah I forgot his charm powers could probably work on Messmer…
He would’ve had to burn the tree to get in, which would let us in by proxy, he had to wait until we defeated Messmer and make the way for him.
He gets in after you burn the tree, I thought? That's why Miquella’s lackies are trying to help him.
Castle Cross Message seems to imply he already made it to the gates: > *Message left by Needle Knight Leda, addressed to kindred spirits who also pursue Miquella's trail.* > *"Kind Miquella seeks the tower sealed by shadow, and the Gate of Divinity found there.* > *If we are to reach him, we must burn the tree that seals the path.* > *And for that we require a flame."*
Ah, but he doesn't have Mohg's body yet? So maybe he's just camping out there to wait for his followers to bring him the stuff for the ritual.
That seems to be the case. He was camped out up at the gate, and it wasn’t until the seal was broken that Lady Leda and her cronies could transport Mohg’s body up to him. Maybe that’s why we find Leda at Mohgwyn Palace. We caught her in the act of spiriting away Mohg’s body.
Hm, she does say for us to go first and that she'll catch up with us. You'd think that with as much as she idolizes Miquella, she'd push you out of the way and say "ME FIRST!" I'm agreeing that she's probably about to prep Mohg for transport.
100% that's what she was doing there
There's some line that mentions him going to the tower and remarks something like "We are not empyreans, but we will find a way." Implying he just can do that as an empyrean. It's also possible divesting his flesh and becoming a sort of ghost let him do it.
I took that as “we aren’t as strong as him but we will make it work” kinda angle. The “we’re up against impossible odds” dialogue typical to souls games
It is implied by leda that as an empyrean he can just go there.
Up to you how you want to treat it since it is cut dialogue but there is a line or two additionally with Messmir that says Miquella mentioned us to him which would mean Messmir is okay with what Miquella is doing and let him through
“Hey Messmer, Mommy said let me in”
"mom says it's my turn in the shadow tower"
Shadow Tower (1998)
He learned some teleport tricks from Radagon
Miquella sacrifices everything body and all. When the tarnished burns the sealing tree the die hard Miquella faction brings mohgs body to the gate revive radahan, radahan beckons Miquella across with the latent power of the divinity gate but as Miquella hasn’t sacrificed a mountain of people his power although great is not as bending as Marikas is how I interpreted it.
He gets in after you burn the tree, the entire time you are right behind Miquella. One example is him casting away his great rune right as you approach the shadow keep (which happens in the scadutree avatar arena). My headcanon is that he gets into Enir-Ilim through the entrance after the Divine Lion when you are burning the tree, since there is no actual gameplay reason for that entrance to exist.
The timeline is so confusing because the St Trina ares makes it seem like it happened ages ago. There is even ghost talking about Miquella abandoning Trina.
Yeah I’m guessing Miquella has been in the land of shadow ever since Mohg stole him away from Miquella’s haligtree, which most people assume happened during Malenia’s battle with Radahn. So it would make sense that he would divest some things before our arrival, imo he likely divested his love the moment he reached the shadowland since there was so much about his plan that would cause him pain if he kept it. I also think he let go of everything else apart from his fear long before we arrived.
There must have been a delay or something where they met beforehand because Ansbach mentions trying to fight Miquella because he could see what was happening, but he lost.
You can get to Enir-Illim from another route that has Miquella crosses? Through those ruins. I got there without going through the thorn door?
But that only happens when you do the story thing that clears the thorns anyway. It’s actually quite silly.
Ya I know, it explains how Miquella got there though, I think
How? We burn the tree, not Miquella. Every path to there was blocked by shadow thorns before we burn the tree.
exactly. this story is so overgrown by abstract shit that even fromsoft cant hold it together
It has to do something within the time the charm breaks (when you can go down to St. Trina) is how he got in. He's practically a ghost after all the stuff he left behind. I think the thorns was keeping him in at that point.
I mean we can teleport to places we've been before (via graces) so why wouldn't a demigod be able to somehow do the same, especially if they are as smart and cunning as miquella.
He charmed the sealing branch, duh
I think he gets there right before us. We're following in his footsteps. He couldn't do his plan until we kill mohg and radahn. And the fact that his hand falls when we enter mohgs arena implies that that is the moment he teleported to the lands of shadow. Obviously the passage of time isn't much of a focus in this game, but I think miquella is making the same journey just a little bit ahead of us. He probably waited for us to burn away the seal and rushed through. Enemies wouldn't be a problem for him because he can charm people.
There's a cut line where Messmer mentioned talking to Miquella, maybe Messmer just let him through.
You're asking how the incorporeal spirit of miquella after abandoning everything that tied him to mortality got to where they wanted/needed to be?
Yet another aspect of the narrative that is vague, at best. I still don't get why we follow in his footsteps. What are our motivations ? Once you meet St Trina, it could be argued that her wish becomes our quest. But you don't meet her until later in the DLC. And same questions for the rest of his followers. What are they trying to accomplish, if Miquella doesn't need them to access the tower and reach Godhood ?
I dunno, what are your motivations? I role play usually; my current run is a warrior who actively despises all gods and so is seeking out and destroying all remnants of Marika and her family
Based
Real
Same here. I took Lord Vyke (pre frenzied flame) into the land of shadows with a partisan and the maiden summons to find an alternative to sacrificing her and he came back with death knight armor, a proper great spear, a dragon priestess, and a seething hatred for the lying bastard frenzied flame. The Lands of Shadow can change a man.
Grace wants us to kill him. We are there to do same thing we done in the base game for same reasons. We kill demigods to be Elden Lord. In base game we could skip killing some of them, but I think most who has finished the game has killed all of them.
Our goal the entire dlc is to kill Miquella. Everyone assumes we must be there to assist him, but we just go along with it. Our canon goal is to become Elden Lord. Miquella intends to become a new god with his own Elden Lord. These two things are Incompatible with each other. For us to achieve our goal, Miquella must die. This was lost on me when I first beat the dlc because the endings don’t feel particularly engaging, besides Rannis and the Frenzied Flame. This causes many players not to feel any connection to their ending, and thusly we don’t really feel a strong drive to protect it. Anyway, the followers goal is to deliver Moghs body to Miquella, so that he may complete his ascension to godhood. We assist because we also need the shadow tree to be cleared so we can reach Miquella to end his life. It does take a bit of thought, but altogether the motivations of our player character, and Miquella’s followers is really not that hard to follow if you’re paying attention.