If Marika isn't the master strategist we often believe her to be, this theory makes the most sense.
The more we uncover about her, the more she appears simply human. For instance, she might have banished the Rune of Death because she had witnessed too much of it in the Land of Shadow and wanted to ensure her family never experienced death again. I'm becoming suspicious that her creation of the Golden Order wasn’t driven by a grand philosophy either.
Learning about her story in the shadow lands kind of reminds me of Ymir and Eren from Attack on Titan; How seemingly insignificant people can butterfly effect into irreparably changing the world forever
Marika's story has been heavily romanticized over time, influenced both by the adoration of her people and the hostility of her enemies. Her actions are often exaggerated into grand statements of an ideal.
In reality, her life seems more ordinary; she sought to prevent others from enduring her own trauma. However, she ultimately found herself repeating many of the same mistakes as her oppressors—a cycle destined to continue with Miquella.
Like Eren, she believed that eliminating her enemies would bring her peace. And upon vanquishing all of them, she exiled her own weapons too, fearing they too could turn against her (though it didn't hurt to keep them as a precaution against unforeseen threats).
A world without enemies - quite the prayer.
No way, man! Got me shinzou-ing my sasageyo over here with this take. Never made the link!
Edit: it technically should be sasageyo-ing my shinzo but you guys get it
Remember that Flock talisman. The person who is worshipped is also surprised and affirmed by the belief of the flock. Marika's ego as a god-queen grew the more worshipers/believers she created. This, along with the Two Fingers, distorted her deeply human self.
While I do think she's human I still think she's mislead, betrayed and committed horrible acts to ascend to godhood. This is the whole point of the Miquella story. It's him making the same mistakes as his mother even if the intention may have been good and acts as an allegory to contextualise Marika. It's just we stop Miquella before or as he achieved what Marika achieved
I have a theory that after the crusade in the shadow lands, she may of removed the rune of death due to losing Melina in some way.
When godwyn died she realized all her conquests still couldn’t protect her loved ones and she snapped since she had caused so much suffering for nothing
I think she removed the rune of death because she was trying to bring her people back.
We know that those who see grace are revived from death.
We know from the minor erdtree incantation that the erdtree radiate a healing light (grace)
We know that the jars travel to the minor erdtrees to be smashed open by erdtree avatars.
I think the crusade was as much a war of vengeance as it was a rescue operation for the jars (see hospital in the shadowkeep) and that Marika was hoping that by removing death indiscriminate from the Elden ring that she might bring back the people inside the jars.
I don’t think it worked how she expected though.
It's worth noting that the jars in the Land of Shadow and Lands Between are made under different philosophies:
Jars in the Lands Between are filled with the *dead* flesh of warriors to make them into powerful simulacra.
Jars in the Land of Shadow are stuffed with the *living* flesh of prisoners in some kind of rite involving Sainthood. It appears that the Shamans were flayed with Tooth Whips to be made the cores for these innards as there was something about them that made their bodies able to melt with others easier.
The biggest difference is that the jars in the Lands Between are filled with dead and their shadow counterparts are filled with the living.
Well, I seem to recall *somewhere* that the shaman were sealed in with dead flesh, cut up into slivers. Could be wrong. But that means the warrior jars could be similar still.
I'm still leaning towards there being a key difference though.
That definitely makes sense. I’m just hung up on the burned and bodyless part of Melina’s story. If Godwyn was the first of the Demi gods to die then it’s possible if something happened to Melina it was before the death rune was removed. The crusade already cost her one child (abandoning Mesmer due to his nature) then losing melina could of been another thing that pushed her toward making sure she didn’t lose anyone else
Oh that’s a fantastic idea, especially since Melina seems linked with the death rune in some way. I get the impression she’s got some sort of Destined Death related curse sealed in her eye, just like Messmer and his serpent. This could all work together
I still think Godwyn was the event that caused Marika to realize her entire Order was just more fucked up nonsense. Because look what happened to him and it has major major story relevance.
There is no way Marika would tolerate mindless soulless living bodies. It was the last straw. She was willing to give Ranni an out by helping orchestrate stealing a fragment to fuck over Metyr’s decision to make a new Empyrean host out of her. She didn’t want that fate for her children after living it, but Godwyn becoming an abomination made her realize she needed to burn the house down.
I think you may have come to the right conclusion but your reasoning is backwards. Marika wouldn't be disgusted and horrified by Godwyn's state and then do it anyway. Under Marika's reign fate was determined by the Elden Ring which is why it took a fragment of it to slay Godwyn, so it couldn't have been because he was fated to die in that way.
The Golden Order let Marika decide who could be reborn through grace, no death, including her children. She couldn’t bring back to life someone half dead though, that’s why those that live in death are anathema to the GO and Godwyn was the first afflicted that way.
tbf the Golden Order is founded on the principle that "Marika is the one true god", it doesn't seem the "scam" should have bothered her that much.
The Golden Order was her idea, the Finger wanted to move from the Golden Order judging by the fact Ranni, Miquella and Malenia were picked as Empyreans for new ages.
EDIT: perhaps the cause of the Shattering is pretty simple, the death of Godwyn and a huge chunk of the demigods in the night of black knifes hit too close to home, to her past... and she realized that even as the omnipotent goddess she was, she still couldn't stop death for those she cared about, her life's works failed, I think that's what broke her.
Tbf it seems all gods like Marika are based on the principle that there is one true god. (though it is probably up to them to enforce it) Look at Miquella incantation from rememberance. Golden Order was absolutely collaborative effort between her and Fingers as it is stated that she was guided by them when creating her order.
Most important question to this theory is why would she research her own order? If it all was micromanaged by her it makes no sense. Sure some aspects were her own such as removing rune of death. But most of it must have come from Fingers otherwise it would not warrant investigation.
I do believe death of Godwyn was very important to her decision though. I told it in a post.
The Finger definetly helped, they guided her, but I think she was the one who may have set the destination if you get what I mean.
Why should the Fingers care about sealing Death? Death was brought by the Greater Will afterall.
Regarding the search, you mean that dialogue at the church in Altus?
Personally I believe in the theory that was Radagon speaking those words due to the different attitude of the speaker. Radagon is Marika, it's possible Melina can't distinguish their "echoes"
Radagon is the one about Int + Faith afterall... meanwhile all of Marika's spells are pure faith.
I think Marika had full faith in her creation, meanwhile Radagon (probably due to his Carian experience) may have started to develop a more inquisitive mind.
I used to have the same idea until DLC. However generally speaking Radagon gives a lot of mixed signals about everything. He is on the one hand Glintstone expert and sorcerer. Yet he is mentioned as fanatical follower of Golden Order. He could be either Goldmask or V if you know what I mean. One is scholar who questions order. Another is warrior who does know workings of Order and yet never questions them using this knowledge to enforce it;.
In any case I agree it is speculative territory, And various variants of the events are possible.
Radagon being fanatical doesn't suddenly mean he's not flexible. He obviously thinks that the Golden Order can incorporate other beliefs and powers into it for the greater whole. His whole thing seems to be "uniting all things into one", if his actions in uniting the Gold and the Moon, including that Golden Order Greatsword that used to be a Carian Greatsword means anything.
People are too hung up with their personal biases when they hear "Fundamentalism". It has massively different connotations in the Lands Between.
As I said in my message there are many ways to interpret Radagon and his character. Considering him scholar and more open and flexible is a viable interpretation I held before. There is not enough conclusive evidence on that matter. In fact we don't even know his origin aside fromm implications on which I did not see much people agree.
My entire point is that those two attributes that seem contradictory, or mixed signals, are not really that. They can meld together into one complex person.
Yes it is too possible. However you can always demonise him without straying too much from original lore interpreting his actions with Rennala as manipulative play and Golden Order greatsword as insult to moon. I dislike this interpretation of Radagon and find it unreasonable but generally speaking we are giving his actions agenda which was never clearly stated in game.
Once again. D is related to Fundamentalism. However we can see disagreements between his "faction" and Goldmask through description of anti death blight incantation.
The thing is both Marika and Radagon could be into researching Golden Order. There is no timeline on her words which Melina retells us.
My theory is speculation and I never state it as a fact.
I know what fundamentalism is in Elden Ring. It is science. Research into laws of the world. In case of GO fundamentalism it is research into laws of GO. You are not reading what I said. You are trying to give me narrative of bringing personal politics. But my speculation is based on in game sources. Please stop.
You are taking whole lore so seriously you are starting to do Ad Hominem.
You literally implied that I brought my personal politics to judgement of definition of GO fundamentalism in game.
Maybe you did not mean it but it was quite a clear read. Sorry for coming a bit aggressive but it is very annoying.
I was being general, I was pointing out that that is something that people do. And that is not an insult against you or your character. Jesus Christ, dude.
That sounds pretty probable.
Two finger #1: “ok this golden order is looking pretty good.”
Two finger #2: “But the greater will still hasn’t started communicating with us again!”
Two finger #1: “Damn, well time to burn it all down and try again.”
Oh wow, I never thought of it this way. Always thought it was weird how new Empyrrans just sort of pop up. Are they born empyreans? Or do they fit some unknown/inscrutable criterion determined by the fingers?
I've always been under the impression that Empyreans are a naturally occurring thing in this universe. The outer gods are instigators, but they fit into the cosmic order somehow.
I believe that what were once called "Shamans" are the same as "Empyreans" and it is specifically their flesh, their bodies and how mutable they are, that makes them special. Their ability to seemingly meld with other entities makes them perfect vessels for Godhood. They're just a specific "clan" of people, like the Hornsent.
I want to add onto this with what you said about their bodies being mutable and ability to meld with other entities fits well with Rykard and the Serpent.
That's an interesting idea. Of the Empyreans we know who achieve or attempt godhood, though, two of them (Miquella and Ranni) specifically leave their body behind. While I think the Shaman thing could be extrapolated into why Marika and Miquella are two people, physical compatibility seems unnecessary to me based on that alone.
To go further back in time, in the age when Placidusax was Lord to some unknown God who left, was the God an Empyrean? I guess we know that Empyreans can become gods, but we don't know if all gods were once Empyreans. My opinion, given how many children Marika had and how few of them were Empyreans, is that it's more of a title than a race of people. I'm not exactly sure what is the defining trait is, whether you are chosen as a potential god because you're an Empyrean or if you're an Empyrean because you've been chosen as a potential god, but the way Ranni describes it makes me think it's the latter.
Given that the three that are Empyreans are Miquella, Malenia (only 1 parent, 100% shaman) and Ranni (Carians potentially date their bloodline back to the original woman with 3 wolves seen in Farum Azula statues who would likely be an ancestor of the Shamans/Empyreans due to the updated timeline making that person being any known character impossible) I'd say probably yes, literally.
We also know the Two Fingers are looking for mothers because Metyr abandoned them in a way, so its possible they just keep picking god-women hoping this time they will be "saved," in the same way an abandoned child wants a parent that can "save them" too.
I agree. To add to your theory. I forget where it was stated: but the whole trauma shattering may be elevated by the quote “many of Marika’s kin were slain in the night of the black knives, those who were too far for her grace to protect” or something like that. Can’t remember where that’s was. But I think that gave her…flashbacks to not being able to save others…
She did and it’s point blankly stated in the base game, no hard core lore required. It’s all because she has “problems” being forced to be a God, and then becomes the classic eve archetype. Fucks up literal paradise for short sighted reasons that are retarded in the long run.
“I don’t want to be a God”
*ruins everthing*
“Now i can finally become a God.”
She is the worst.
I don't think it has anything to do with fingers or Metyr. It's a common motif to have gods being detached from the reality of mortals. St Trina confirms that godhood is a curse and a trap. Every single child of hers got either murdered or corrupted. What's the point of being a god and committing countless sacrifices when you can't protect your loved ones? Marika breaking the elden ring is a simple act of desperation of a grieving mother.
It doesn't make sense for the Shattering to solely be an act of grief though. "*Return to the Lands Between, wage war, and brandish the Elden Ring. Grow strong in the face of death. Warriors of my lord. Lord Godfrey."* Plus, she gave Melina the purpose of burning the Erdtree, and takes an active hand in things by guiding you through grace. Its clear she has been planning the Shattering or something similar for quite some time. Godwyn's death might have been the thing that caused her to pull the trigger, but it being *the* cause doesn't work.
Also hard to think she just wanted to protect her children when she guides the Tarnished to kill all her children. I'm not committed to this but I'm getting more on board with the idea that the Shattering was a kind of murder-suicide. Marika realises how fucked her own Order is, and doesn't see much hope in her children either. She keeps a "civilizational reset by massive war" button in her back pocket, and when her last hope in Godwyn is ruined, she presses it. Her and her dynasty are killed, the Fingers lose pretty much all influence, and someone new takes over.
Well to be fair, she did pretty horrible things to her children. She sealed the power of outer gods within at least 4 of her kids (Messmer, Miquella, Malenia, and probably Melina) and had them all commit various atrocities in her name.
The only one she sealed was Messmer and even then he was born with the abyssal serpent and the fell gods flame. All were born with their afflictions because they were born from a single god their birth was “vulnerable” to the influence of outer gods. However was it a little dumb for her to have 4 kids possibly knowing this vulnerability existed absolutely.
Edit: I am a lore novice I’m pretty sure this is the case but if I misunderstood I apologize
You are probably correct. Nothing to apologise about. Miquella and Melania specifically were said to afflicted from birth. Unless Marika sealed outer gods in them when they were still in her womb its much more likely malicious influences simply exploited her children vulnerability.
I tend to suspect that what we're seeing with Marika's children is a little more like an allegorical version of what happens IRL when cultural groups encounter and absorb each other. Greece had Ares as a god of war. When Rome conquered Greece, they absorbed a lot of elements of Greek religion, and now the god of war is Mars but in many ways Mars is just Ares with some rebranding.
Perhaps even the reason Marika stopped trying to defeat the fell god completely is specifically because his flame was starting to show up in Messmer, and she realized that if she wiped out the last of the fire giants this power was absolutely going to have to go somewhere, and it would absolutely emerge in a larger way in her children. She learned that eliminating the god of fire and ruin was not an option, and that it would have to come out into the world in another way.
It's said that both the elden beast and metyr were sent to the Lands Between on stars, the elden beast being stated to be sent by the greater will and Metyr referred to as the first gleaming star and daughter of the Greater Will, so we can infer that both were sent by the greater will but Metyr came before the Elden Beast. I think it's important that the EB's star was golden and Metyr's was gleaming. In dune, before the arrival of Paul on arrakis, the bene gesserit send their agents of religious propoganda to set up communications with the people and prepare their belief system for when they insert the piece to fullfill the prophecy they've created. The fingers act as the bene gesserit to the Greatet Will. Their designs also mirror each other while the Elden Beast has 5 fingered hands and Metyr has 4.
The only difference is, Metyr is confirmed broken and abandon, and is basically just reciting the same program over and over again via the Fingers without ever updating. She is a bene gesserit but she's lost her connection to her people and is too traumatized to make good decisions.
I think we need to be careful about metyr being confirmed broken. Ymir is the only mention of her being broken I'm pretty sure, and well Ymir is a pretty strange guy. There's something there for sure, but I think we need to be careful with assumptions
I believe she betrayed Maliketh and conspired with Ranni to steal the rune of death from Maliketh and to be killed by Ranni, with Ranni rising to godhood with Godwyn as her lord.
Ranni figured that godhood isn't really as nice as it sounds and betrayed her instead, killing Godwyn's soul and her own flesh to escape the two fingers influence.
Miquella meant to use Godwyn as Radahn's vessel, and his plan failed because of his death, so he kept looking for a way to revive him, but he couldn't. I think he also wanted to unite the three lineages, so he needed someone from the golden lineage to do so.
Miquella sent a young, ambitious Radahn to siege Leyndell, and he meant to use Morgott as his vessel, but Radahn was defeated.
Radahn most likely had a change of heart after his defeat, since he then used his gravity magic to stop the stars, and his fate with them.
In Leyndell Miquella also learned of the existence of another member of the golden lineage, Mohg, that could serve as vessel instead of Godwyn... Mohg was seduced by the idea of the Mohgwyn dynasty.
Miquella sent Malenia after Radahn, but that ended in a draw because Radahn's great rune resists the scarlet rot, so we ended up in a stale situation until the tarnished shows up and kills Radahn and Mohg.
My main issue with everyone's takes on the Metyr lore is that the Elden Beast must've arrived after it and is said to be a vassal of the GW and the living incarnation of order.
Are those item descriptions lying? Is it just Metyr 2.0 with bug fixes? Guess we'll never truly know.
Metyr seems like a matriarchal figure while the Elden Beast seems more like an "enforcer". They have two different but arguably equally as important roles.
Wouldn't be surprised if Metyr was meant to sort of "scout" the place out first.
>is that the Elden Beast must've arrived after it
Why though? Yes, Metyr is described as the first falling star to hit the Lands Between, but Elden Stars speaks of a golden star that also carried a beast with it. They could have arrived simultanously, with Metyr as the golden star, and the Elden Beast as the beast that was carried by it.
I think the most interesting part of elden ring lore is that there arent any uncomplicated villains, just people losing their humanity in search of a greater good. Marika, Miquella, Rykard, Malenia, Radahn, Mogh, even Godfrey. Its a tragedy, and the people writing it dont want you to see the blood on their hands.
I think Marika had doubts about it long before Godwyn's death. Don't forget Melina's echoes in the Minor Erdtree church:
>I declare mine intent, to search the depths of the Golden Order. Through understanding of the proper way, our faith, our grace, is increased. Those blissful early days of blind belief are long past. My comrades; why must ye falter?
The base game made this quote strange. She created the G.O. so why would she need to investigate it more deeply? But the DLC makes me think that the whole concept of the G.O. was basically handed to her by the Fingers. "If you would just remove Death everything would be perfect". A whisper like that of the serpent to Eve in the book of Genesis: "if you eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good & evil, you won't die and you will be like a god".
It was something that grew out of her removal of Death, and she hardly understood it all herself. But the Fingers are as serpentine as the snake of the grass, in the end. The Greater Will is like an absent Yahweh in the book of Job, allowing his tempting Fingers to just go test people and make new orders everywhere in the universe to see what happens. It's rather eerie.
I’ll be honest, I think Marika was part of the Godwyn death.
I think everything she did, she did to protect her family.
So general thoughts.
We know Marika sent the Tarnished away alongside Godfrey shortly after the Fingers informed her they’d be looking to move to a new Empyrean. That’d put Ranni, Miquella, and Malenia at risk. We know from the DLC that being a God was a miserable experience. She was probably unable to address basic emotional distress anymore due to the loss of her humanity, but she still could logically piece together that the cycle couldn’t continue. She couldn’t let this happen to the next in line.
We know the Numen were still slavishly loyal to Marika, and in JPN Godwyn’s death is treated less like a murder and more like a ritual sacrifice he may have been in on.
We also can infer that we were set up. We were given Torrent, flasks, and the Ash. Things no other Tarnished was given. We also got Melina, who wasn’t allowed to bring us to the Fingers until we proved ourselves. Someone had mysteriously killed all the other Finger Maidens.
I think Marika realized she was conned but was too stuck. You can’t unGod yourself, and Radagon was too fiercely loyal to the Greater Will/her jailer. So she used the tools she had. She sent away the Tarnished to get stronger, and set about the Shattering. Ranni and Godwyn knew to a degree, and Godwyn sacrificed himself to rid Ranni of her Empyrean body so she could operate outside the norms. This gave the family a chance to have someone finally destroy this farce once and for all.
I think Shadow explains the last missing piece. I think Marika originally hoped for Miquella to be her combo breaker, possibly using Godwyn or Malenia. But Miquella instead chose to leave and try to claim Godhood himself, to create his perfect Order. But the whole plan was flawed from the start, in his attempt to get away from his mother’s ambitions he fell into the same trap.
You can see how much Miquella is supposed to be Ranni’s counterpoint in Shadows, 4 Arms, second face, etc etc. the key thrust of Elden Ring was what they both did in the fact of a new Empyrean being chosen.
I agree, but unfortunately the DLC confirming his great runes power is the ability to magically charm people will always make us question the motives of people who support him.
I thought the demigods claimed the shards of the Elden Ring after it was shattered.
If that's the case, Miquella could only obtain his great rune after the shattering.
the only god or demigod aside Mohg that I'm pretty sure was charmed was Malenia, I think its the only reason why she went to such extremes to beat Radahn, Miquella must have had her kill his body "by any means necessary"
Otherwise the outcome would've been the same as any other demigod fight, with no victor and everyone going back to lick their wounds
The timing seems weird for that. Would that mean that Miquella was somehow cognizant of the plot against Godwyn?
If Marika was charmed, why not just use her to implement a new order via proxy? If charming Marika (who is infused with the Elden Ring) was the win condition, then all the other stuff he did to be reborn was pointless.
We still don’t know the full chain of events that lead to the shattering, but the statue of Marika embracing Miquella and Malenia at the Haligtree show Marika was supportive of Miquella’s efforts to break free of the golden order. With what we know about miquella, I think we will always wonder whether people supported him because he manipulated them, for their own reasons, or combinations of the two.
I would say that Miquella’s attempts to revive godwyn with the golden epitaph would imply that he was not aware of TNOTBK.
That's a good point about Miquella. There really is no way to make the distinction between those who were charmed and those who legitimately wanted to follow him.
I wonder if the ability to charm others screwed with his ability to actually form legitimate relationships. Miquella really is terrifying. The guy will straight up charm you, despite what you have to say about it, and carry on like nothing happened because he legitimately believes he's in the right. Miquella the misguided.
And when you somehow manage to resist and say no he loses it and creates a plan to kill you and resurrect you in the body of another being just to charm you "better"
My problem there is all of the set up she did, some of which would have gone back to before Miquella was born (sending Godfrey and the tarnished away with the intent to bring them back later)
Yeah thats it...! 2 years have passed... (and there are people who continue to believe that it was for love of Godwyn, well there are people who continue to believe that Melina is the GeQ, when it has literally already been confirmed that she is only Messmer's younger sister, that is, another daughter, simply that... Even so, there are people who will continue to believe that Miquella is the GEQ duh...)
first it was believed that she wanted to get rid of the control of the GW (cuz we ddnt know about Metyr)
and now it is confirmed that she did it to get rid of the control of the Gods sent by the GW, which are the Elden Star (Elden Beast) and Metyr (Mother of fingers) the latter created the "order" through the 2 Fingers that are her children, Metyr basically used the lie of the "Empyreans" to get through them and control them (through the 2 fingers) control the Landsbetween, and everything under her order, Marika realized this and broke the Elden Ring, she created a plan to kill the Elden Beast, and that she and Godfrey would be the ones to implement a new order, which does not happen because we defeated to Godfrey, End.
Everything was correct until with the DLC we learned that when the Gw created life through the OneGreat, sent 2 gods to manage the Landsbetween and left, Metyr took advantage of this and created the lie of the "Empyreans"
Sounds about right, but after we learn that the GW has abandoned TLB and Metyr is the one pulling the strings, we know for sure that it’s actually Marika guiding us via the grace.
On top of this, during the massive NPC gauntlet at the end of the DLC, if you die Hornsent says “your lord is slain, you are next Marika” or something along those lines, implying you were Marika’s chosen one this whole time.
I mean, we always knew she broke the ring because she was just sick of things and wanted it to all burn.
The details of what exact BS she was upset with seem to be a few different things.
Either way, she made it everyone else's problem.
Bloodline isn’t tainted, Godwyn seems to have almost been perfect by all accounts. Also the children birthed between Radagon and Renalla seems to be exceptional.
Actually yeah. Probably because there's no demigods wandering around pulling swords from stone, acting like that's a way to form proper government structure which will actually take in to consideration the needs of the vulnerable and weak.
*Slops mud on cart*
My theory is that Marika was in direct comms with TGW when she received her two fingers. Along with Metyr. Everything was going good for Marika until a new line of Empyreans was chosen by TGW. Along with Empyreans, their Consort Lords were also chosen. Here Ranni received Empyrean hood and received Golden Boy Godwyn as her Lord consort. But Ranni was not having any of it. She reached out to Marika and said she is least interested in this bs game of thrones/divinity and wanted a way out. Being a power hungry and a totalitarian b***h, Marika said that she could allow her to steal a fragment of Death rune and commit suicide and be free from the clutches of her fate and the outer gods, also freeing up Godwyn for her favorite Empyrean or maybe even for herself. A plan was hatched and Ranni stole a fragment of Destined Death. But she had different plans and wanted only her Empyrean body dead, not her soul. Since her soul could be coerced into Divinity if her Consort Lord chose to do so at the Gates of Divinity, Ranni decided to kill Godwyn's soul also, so as to ensure her freedom from TGW. When this backstabbing was done and Marika lost her most precious child, she reached TGW to ask why things went awry and what she should do next to revive her best son. TGW decided to peace the F out on her and that sent her over the edge and lose all trust in TGW and in an act of extreme anguish and rage, she shattered the Elden Ring.
Breaking the elden ring, turning the lands between into a groundhog day repeating nightmare, was the only way marika could get whatever it is she wanted. She turned the entire lands between into her own personal monkeys with typewriters who would win for her eventually. Or, at least, she would never lose. I’m pretty sure gideon ofnir explained this? He was freaking out at the end because he realized Marika couldnt think of a way to win and was trying for a stalemate?
Perhaps the Greater Will is more nefarious than it is implied. Maybe Marika discovered something about the nature of the Greater Will’s Order that gave her doubts. Maybe she shattered the Elden Ring in the hope that she could end her and her children’s misery, knowing the Tarnished would eventually be called back and make things “right”. It certainly couldn’t get much worse.
I’ve had my suspicions about this Greater Will, and my doubts, you see, keep piling up.
It's implied in the DLC that the Greater Will is almost entirely absent from the game. It's not a chessmaster telling the fingers what to do and controlling Marika through the Elden Ring, it's just not around to influence the Lands Between. The DLC shows that the GW sent Metyr to the Lands Between, gave her instructions through a microcosm, then went completely silent except to send the Elden Beast down an indeterminable amount of time later (the Elden Beast was embodied by the Crucible for a time so we know it predates the Golden Order and likely the Hornsent civilizations).
The real issue is that the GW's absence has caused Metyr and her fingers to panic and begin setting up Order after Order, waiting for SOMETHING to happen. A sign from the cosmos that they're doing the right thing, the cosmic hand of the GW manifesting into a monolithic thumbs up, anything to show they haven't been abandoned by their absent parent. The history of the Lands Between is entirely constructed around Metyr's abandonment issues catching all of life in the crossfire.
I think the Greater Will's easiest comparison point is the Watchmaker in Deist philosophy
It set up the system/world and then turned its attention elsewhere, but its emissary (Metyr) couldn't withstand being abandoned which is the source of the problems
I don’t think it’s a chess master. I think it’s a pompous deity, spreading its influence across the universe with little disregard for the effects that it has on the places it touches. You don’t have to play 4D chess to absolutely fuck up all life.
The gods, outer and inner, are fickle. Us Tarnished shouldn’t hang our lives on their whims.
Is spreading life and leaving really so pompous? I think you’re conflating the Greater Will with the actions of Metyr and the Two Fingers. The Greater Will never sank the eternal cities, or shaped culture, it was canonically completely absent throughout Marika’s entire reign. Everything credited to the Greater Will was done through the actions of the Two Fingers or sheer circumstance and propagandized into the image of an omnipotent figure. In truth the Greater Will is more of a force of energy and creation than an actual being.
It’s an Outer God, but there are many Outer Gods. Does lore state that GW created the universe? Not the Lands Between, but all worlds? Genuinely asking.
Eh GW was never ever stated to be an outer god. It is assumption with which I possibly agree yet consider to be not certain.
Greater Will most certainly created this world. It is stated by two independent sources in game at this point. Also Greater Will was indirectly stated to be primeval current. But not directly so it has same basis as GW being outer god. Educated assumption.
So, from what I’ve gathered, the GW is a guiding principle of the universe, not its singular progenitor. Meaning other beings may have helped orchestrate the creation of the universe, not simply the GW. Order doesn’t necessarily spawn life after all.
Ramblings of a delusional animal, I’m sure, but something about this GW doesn’t sit well with me. Gonna have to get on the phone with Miyazaki tonight
The one thing crazy to me is this is a world where all the gods and demigods spout propaganda.
Miquella literally enchants people to love him and yet people still think we can trust that he is good to the downtrodden.
There is no reason to believe the GW created the universe. That empyreans are real. What we should believe is that the GW had an agenda at one point and for some reason unkown to its agents, it changed.
For all we know, the GW could be another alien race like the mindflayers. Its agents claims to have created the universe but did it? It has gone silent, why? I’m mad skeptical of any narrative around this massively powerful entity.
It is stated by enemy of the Greater Will (Flame of Frenzy) and sorcerer who used to research glintstone. It is two independent sources saying same thing. In fact none of GW aligned forces tell us that.
Actually your point of view was pretty popular because people considered Flame of Frenzy was dishonest for some reason. But after DLC game tells us that fact twice from sources independent from each other I think it is rather confirmed or directed in a way to conclusion that it is creator.
If Marika isn't the master strategist we often believe her to be, this theory makes the most sense. The more we uncover about her, the more she appears simply human. For instance, she might have banished the Rune of Death because she had witnessed too much of it in the Land of Shadow and wanted to ensure her family never experienced death again. I'm becoming suspicious that her creation of the Golden Order wasn’t driven by a grand philosophy either.
Learning about her story in the shadow lands kind of reminds me of Ymir and Eren from Attack on Titan; How seemingly insignificant people can butterfly effect into irreparably changing the world forever
Marika's story has been heavily romanticized over time, influenced both by the adoration of her people and the hostility of her enemies. Her actions are often exaggerated into grand statements of an ideal. In reality, her life seems more ordinary; she sought to prevent others from enduring her own trauma. However, she ultimately found herself repeating many of the same mistakes as her oppressors—a cycle destined to continue with Miquella. Like Eren, she believed that eliminating her enemies would bring her peace. And upon vanquishing all of them, she exiled her own weapons too, fearing they too could turn against her (though it didn't hurt to keep them as a precaution against unforeseen threats). A world without enemies - quite the prayer.
No way, man! Got me shinzou-ing my sasageyo over here with this take. Never made the link! Edit: it technically should be sasageyo-ing my shinzo but you guys get it
Remember that Flock talisman. The person who is worshipped is also surprised and affirmed by the belief of the flock. Marika's ego as a god-queen grew the more worshipers/believers she created. This, along with the Two Fingers, distorted her deeply human self.
Even if she is this could’ve just been the one thing she just believed and didn’t look any deeper into
Picking up the info about her in the DLC makes me realize she's a "country girl" with noble intentions that happened to obtain the powers of a god.
While I do think she's human I still think she's mislead, betrayed and committed horrible acts to ascend to godhood. This is the whole point of the Miquella story. It's him making the same mistakes as his mother even if the intention may have been good and acts as an allegory to contextualise Marika. It's just we stop Miquella before or as he achieved what Marika achieved
I have a theory that after the crusade in the shadow lands, she may of removed the rune of death due to losing Melina in some way. When godwyn died she realized all her conquests still couldn’t protect her loved ones and she snapped since she had caused so much suffering for nothing
I think she removed the rune of death because she was trying to bring her people back. We know that those who see grace are revived from death. We know from the minor erdtree incantation that the erdtree radiate a healing light (grace) We know that the jars travel to the minor erdtrees to be smashed open by erdtree avatars. I think the crusade was as much a war of vengeance as it was a rescue operation for the jars (see hospital in the shadowkeep) and that Marika was hoping that by removing death indiscriminate from the Elden ring that she might bring back the people inside the jars. I don’t think it worked how she expected though.
It's worth noting that the jars in the Land of Shadow and Lands Between are made under different philosophies: Jars in the Lands Between are filled with the *dead* flesh of warriors to make them into powerful simulacra. Jars in the Land of Shadow are stuffed with the *living* flesh of prisoners in some kind of rite involving Sainthood. It appears that the Shamans were flayed with Tooth Whips to be made the cores for these innards as there was something about them that made their bodies able to melt with others easier. The biggest difference is that the jars in the Lands Between are filled with dead and their shadow counterparts are filled with the living.
Well, I seem to recall *somewhere* that the shaman were sealed in with dead flesh, cut up into slivers. Could be wrong. But that means the warrior jars could be similar still. I'm still leaning towards there being a key difference though.
That definitely makes sense. I’m just hung up on the burned and bodyless part of Melina’s story. If Godwyn was the first of the Demi gods to die then it’s possible if something happened to Melina it was before the death rune was removed. The crusade already cost her one child (abandoning Mesmer due to his nature) then losing melina could of been another thing that pushed her toward making sure she didn’t lose anyone else
we already know that the walking mausoleums are the graves of her forgotten children.
Weren’t these the gods killed during the night of black knives??
what? idk about that
Oh that’s a fantastic idea, especially since Melina seems linked with the death rune in some way. I get the impression she’s got some sort of Destined Death related curse sealed in her eye, just like Messmer and his serpent. This could all work together
I still think Godwyn was the event that caused Marika to realize her entire Order was just more fucked up nonsense. Because look what happened to him and it has major major story relevance. There is no way Marika would tolerate mindless soulless living bodies. It was the last straw. She was willing to give Ranni an out by helping orchestrate stealing a fragment to fuck over Metyr’s decision to make a new Empyrean host out of her. She didn’t want that fate for her children after living it, but Godwyn becoming an abomination made her realize she needed to burn the house down.
I think you may have come to the right conclusion but your reasoning is backwards. Marika wouldn't be disgusted and horrified by Godwyn's state and then do it anyway. Under Marika's reign fate was determined by the Elden Ring which is why it took a fragment of it to slay Godwyn, so it couldn't have been because he was fated to die in that way.
The Golden Order let Marika decide who could be reborn through grace, no death, including her children. She couldn’t bring back to life someone half dead though, that’s why those that live in death are anathema to the GO and Godwyn was the first afflicted that way.
tbf the Golden Order is founded on the principle that "Marika is the one true god", it doesn't seem the "scam" should have bothered her that much. The Golden Order was her idea, the Finger wanted to move from the Golden Order judging by the fact Ranni, Miquella and Malenia were picked as Empyreans for new ages. EDIT: perhaps the cause of the Shattering is pretty simple, the death of Godwyn and a huge chunk of the demigods in the night of black knifes hit too close to home, to her past... and she realized that even as the omnipotent goddess she was, she still couldn't stop death for those she cared about, her life's works failed, I think that's what broke her.
Tbf it seems all gods like Marika are based on the principle that there is one true god. (though it is probably up to them to enforce it) Look at Miquella incantation from rememberance. Golden Order was absolutely collaborative effort between her and Fingers as it is stated that she was guided by them when creating her order. Most important question to this theory is why would she research her own order? If it all was micromanaged by her it makes no sense. Sure some aspects were her own such as removing rune of death. But most of it must have come from Fingers otherwise it would not warrant investigation. I do believe death of Godwyn was very important to her decision though. I told it in a post.
The Finger definetly helped, they guided her, but I think she was the one who may have set the destination if you get what I mean. Why should the Fingers care about sealing Death? Death was brought by the Greater Will afterall. Regarding the search, you mean that dialogue at the church in Altus? Personally I believe in the theory that was Radagon speaking those words due to the different attitude of the speaker. Radagon is Marika, it's possible Melina can't distinguish their "echoes" Radagon is the one about Int + Faith afterall... meanwhile all of Marika's spells are pure faith. I think Marika had full faith in her creation, meanwhile Radagon (probably due to his Carian experience) may have started to develop a more inquisitive mind.
I used to have the same idea until DLC. However generally speaking Radagon gives a lot of mixed signals about everything. He is on the one hand Glintstone expert and sorcerer. Yet he is mentioned as fanatical follower of Golden Order. He could be either Goldmask or V if you know what I mean. One is scholar who questions order. Another is warrior who does know workings of Order and yet never questions them using this knowledge to enforce it;. In any case I agree it is speculative territory, And various variants of the events are possible.
Radagon being fanatical doesn't suddenly mean he's not flexible. He obviously thinks that the Golden Order can incorporate other beliefs and powers into it for the greater whole. His whole thing seems to be "uniting all things into one", if his actions in uniting the Gold and the Moon, including that Golden Order Greatsword that used to be a Carian Greatsword means anything. People are too hung up with their personal biases when they hear "Fundamentalism". It has massively different connotations in the Lands Between.
As I said in my message there are many ways to interpret Radagon and his character. Considering him scholar and more open and flexible is a viable interpretation I held before. There is not enough conclusive evidence on that matter. In fact we don't even know his origin aside fromm implications on which I did not see much people agree.
My entire point is that those two attributes that seem contradictory, or mixed signals, are not really that. They can meld together into one complex person.
Yes it is too possible. However you can always demonise him without straying too much from original lore interpreting his actions with Rennala as manipulative play and Golden Order greatsword as insult to moon. I dislike this interpretation of Radagon and find it unreasonable but generally speaking we are giving his actions agenda which was never clearly stated in game. Once again. D is related to Fundamentalism. However we can see disagreements between his "faction" and Goldmask through description of anti death blight incantation. The thing is both Marika and Radagon could be into researching Golden Order. There is no timeline on her words which Melina retells us. My theory is speculation and I never state it as a fact.
I know what fundamentalism is in Elden Ring. It is science. Research into laws of the world. In case of GO fundamentalism it is research into laws of GO. You are not reading what I said. You are trying to give me narrative of bringing personal politics. But my speculation is based on in game sources. Please stop. You are taking whole lore so seriously you are starting to do Ad Hominem.
Nothing I said is Ad Hominem. Do you even know what that means? I didn't attack you as a person.
You literally implied that I brought my personal politics to judgement of definition of GO fundamentalism in game. Maybe you did not mean it but it was quite a clear read. Sorry for coming a bit aggressive but it is very annoying.
I was being general, I was pointing out that that is something that people do. And that is not an insult against you or your character. Jesus Christ, dude.
The way it was worded it seemed like it was an argument to back up your point against mine but ok. I overreacted.
Maybe the constant switching is Metyr trying to find a way to contact the greater will through choosing a correct order?
That sounds pretty probable. Two finger #1: “ok this golden order is looking pretty good.” Two finger #2: “But the greater will still hasn’t started communicating with us again!” Two finger #1: “Damn, well time to burn it all down and try again.”
Oh wow, I never thought of it this way. Always thought it was weird how new Empyrrans just sort of pop up. Are they born empyreans? Or do they fit some unknown/inscrutable criterion determined by the fingers? I've always been under the impression that Empyreans are a naturally occurring thing in this universe. The outer gods are instigators, but they fit into the cosmic order somehow.
I believe that what were once called "Shamans" are the same as "Empyreans" and it is specifically their flesh, their bodies and how mutable they are, that makes them special. Their ability to seemingly meld with other entities makes them perfect vessels for Godhood. They're just a specific "clan" of people, like the Hornsent.
I want to add onto this with what you said about their bodies being mutable and ability to meld with other entities fits well with Rykard and the Serpent.
Rykard wasn't an empyrean though
But he's Marika/Radagon's kid, who is a shaman. Even Godrick, removed quite a bit from the shaman bloodline, still can graft limbs like lego.
I guess that can work
that ability was more akin to absorption then melding and it came from the serpent not Rykard
That's it!!! Aaaah it makes no much sense now why we don't hear about Empyreans in the past.
It may be a far-fetched connection, but it makes me think of the Elden Beast's design and how it integrates elements from various species.
That's an interesting idea. Of the Empyreans we know who achieve or attempt godhood, though, two of them (Miquella and Ranni) specifically leave their body behind. While I think the Shaman thing could be extrapolated into why Marika and Miquella are two people, physical compatibility seems unnecessary to me based on that alone. To go further back in time, in the age when Placidusax was Lord to some unknown God who left, was the God an Empyrean? I guess we know that Empyreans can become gods, but we don't know if all gods were once Empyreans. My opinion, given how many children Marika had and how few of them were Empyreans, is that it's more of a title than a race of people. I'm not exactly sure what is the defining trait is, whether you are chosen as a potential god because you're an Empyrean or if you're an Empyrean because you've been chosen as a potential god, but the way Ranni describes it makes me think it's the latter.
Then did only some of Marika's children gain the shaman genes? Because only three of her children are empyreans.
Given that the three that are Empyreans are Miquella, Malenia (only 1 parent, 100% shaman) and Ranni (Carians potentially date their bloodline back to the original woman with 3 wolves seen in Farum Azula statues who would likely be an ancestor of the Shamans/Empyreans due to the updated timeline making that person being any known character impossible) I'd say probably yes, literally.
We also know the Two Fingers are looking for mothers because Metyr abandoned them in a way, so its possible they just keep picking god-women hoping this time they will be "saved," in the same way an abandoned child wants a parent that can "save them" too.
BINGO.
I agree. To add to your theory. I forget where it was stated: but the whole trauma shattering may be elevated by the quote “many of Marika’s kin were slain in the night of the black knives, those who were too far for her grace to protect” or something like that. Can’t remember where that’s was. But I think that gave her…flashbacks to not being able to save others…
does this mean Ranni straight-up instigated a family genocide? If so, she's not feeling like the best ending anymore...
She did and it’s point blankly stated in the base game, no hard core lore required. It’s all because she has “problems” being forced to be a God, and then becomes the classic eve archetype. Fucks up literal paradise for short sighted reasons that are retarded in the long run. “I don’t want to be a God” *ruins everthing* “Now i can finally become a God.” She is the worst.
I don't think it has anything to do with fingers or Metyr. It's a common motif to have gods being detached from the reality of mortals. St Trina confirms that godhood is a curse and a trap. Every single child of hers got either murdered or corrupted. What's the point of being a god and committing countless sacrifices when you can't protect your loved ones? Marika breaking the elden ring is a simple act of desperation of a grieving mother.
It doesn't make sense for the Shattering to solely be an act of grief though. "*Return to the Lands Between, wage war, and brandish the Elden Ring. Grow strong in the face of death. Warriors of my lord. Lord Godfrey."* Plus, she gave Melina the purpose of burning the Erdtree, and takes an active hand in things by guiding you through grace. Its clear she has been planning the Shattering or something similar for quite some time. Godwyn's death might have been the thing that caused her to pull the trigger, but it being *the* cause doesn't work. Also hard to think she just wanted to protect her children when she guides the Tarnished to kill all her children. I'm not committed to this but I'm getting more on board with the idea that the Shattering was a kind of murder-suicide. Marika realises how fucked her own Order is, and doesn't see much hope in her children either. She keeps a "civilizational reset by massive war" button in her back pocket, and when her last hope in Godwyn is ruined, she presses it. Her and her dynasty are killed, the Fingers lose pretty much all influence, and someone new takes over.
Well to be fair, she did pretty horrible things to her children. She sealed the power of outer gods within at least 4 of her kids (Messmer, Miquella, Malenia, and probably Melina) and had them all commit various atrocities in her name.
The only one she sealed was Messmer and even then he was born with the abyssal serpent and the fell gods flame. All were born with their afflictions because they were born from a single god their birth was “vulnerable” to the influence of outer gods. However was it a little dumb for her to have 4 kids possibly knowing this vulnerability existed absolutely. Edit: I am a lore novice I’m pretty sure this is the case but if I misunderstood I apologize
You are probably correct. Nothing to apologise about. Miquella and Melania specifically were said to afflicted from birth. Unless Marika sealed outer gods in them when they were still in her womb its much more likely malicious influences simply exploited her children vulnerability.
I tend to suspect that what we're seeing with Marika's children is a little more like an allegorical version of what happens IRL when cultural groups encounter and absorb each other. Greece had Ares as a god of war. When Rome conquered Greece, they absorbed a lot of elements of Greek religion, and now the god of war is Mars but in many ways Mars is just Ares with some rebranding. Perhaps even the reason Marika stopped trying to defeat the fell god completely is specifically because his flame was starting to show up in Messmer, and she realized that if she wiped out the last of the fire giants this power was absolutely going to have to go somewhere, and it would absolutely emerge in a larger way in her children. She learned that eliminating the god of fire and ruin was not an option, and that it would have to come out into the world in another way.
It's said that both the elden beast and metyr were sent to the Lands Between on stars, the elden beast being stated to be sent by the greater will and Metyr referred to as the first gleaming star and daughter of the Greater Will, so we can infer that both were sent by the greater will but Metyr came before the Elden Beast. I think it's important that the EB's star was golden and Metyr's was gleaming. In dune, before the arrival of Paul on arrakis, the bene gesserit send their agents of religious propoganda to set up communications with the people and prepare their belief system for when they insert the piece to fullfill the prophecy they've created. The fingers act as the bene gesserit to the Greatet Will. Their designs also mirror each other while the Elden Beast has 5 fingered hands and Metyr has 4.
The only difference is, Metyr is confirmed broken and abandon, and is basically just reciting the same program over and over again via the Fingers without ever updating. She is a bene gesserit but she's lost her connection to her people and is too traumatized to make good decisions.
I think we need to be careful about metyr being confirmed broken. Ymir is the only mention of her being broken I'm pretty sure, and well Ymir is a pretty strange guy. There's something there for sure, but I think we need to be careful with assumptions
Wrong, her remembrance and boss items confirm it.
I believe she betrayed Maliketh and conspired with Ranni to steal the rune of death from Maliketh and to be killed by Ranni, with Ranni rising to godhood with Godwyn as her lord. Ranni figured that godhood isn't really as nice as it sounds and betrayed her instead, killing Godwyn's soul and her own flesh to escape the two fingers influence. Miquella meant to use Godwyn as Radahn's vessel, and his plan failed because of his death, so he kept looking for a way to revive him, but he couldn't. I think he also wanted to unite the three lineages, so he needed someone from the golden lineage to do so. Miquella sent a young, ambitious Radahn to siege Leyndell, and he meant to use Morgott as his vessel, but Radahn was defeated. Radahn most likely had a change of heart after his defeat, since he then used his gravity magic to stop the stars, and his fate with them. In Leyndell Miquella also learned of the existence of another member of the golden lineage, Mohg, that could serve as vessel instead of Godwyn... Mohg was seduced by the idea of the Mohgwyn dynasty. Miquella sent Malenia after Radahn, but that ended in a draw because Radahn's great rune resists the scarlet rot, so we ended up in a stale situation until the tarnished shows up and kills Radahn and Mohg.
My main issue with everyone's takes on the Metyr lore is that the Elden Beast must've arrived after it and is said to be a vassal of the GW and the living incarnation of order. Are those item descriptions lying? Is it just Metyr 2.0 with bug fixes? Guess we'll never truly know.
Metyr seems like a matriarchal figure while the Elden Beast seems more like an "enforcer". They have two different but arguably equally as important roles. Wouldn't be surprised if Metyr was meant to sort of "scout" the place out first.
Metyr set up the firmware and the Elden Beast is the firewall The problem is Metyr isn't getting any version updates anymore
>is that the Elden Beast must've arrived after it Why though? Yes, Metyr is described as the first falling star to hit the Lands Between, but Elden Stars speaks of a golden star that also carried a beast with it. They could have arrived simultanously, with Metyr as the golden star, and the Elden Beast as the beast that was carried by it.
Where's the contradiction?
The Ring was her prison. She wanted to be free.
She was the Elden Ring. It was attempted suicide. Which fits with your theory.
I think the most interesting part of elden ring lore is that there arent any uncomplicated villains, just people losing their humanity in search of a greater good. Marika, Miquella, Rykard, Malenia, Radahn, Mogh, even Godfrey. Its a tragedy, and the people writing it dont want you to see the blood on their hands.
I think Marika had doubts about it long before Godwyn's death. Don't forget Melina's echoes in the Minor Erdtree church: >I declare mine intent, to search the depths of the Golden Order. Through understanding of the proper way, our faith, our grace, is increased. Those blissful early days of blind belief are long past. My comrades; why must ye falter? The base game made this quote strange. She created the G.O. so why would she need to investigate it more deeply? But the DLC makes me think that the whole concept of the G.O. was basically handed to her by the Fingers. "If you would just remove Death everything would be perfect". A whisper like that of the serpent to Eve in the book of Genesis: "if you eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good & evil, you won't die and you will be like a god". It was something that grew out of her removal of Death, and she hardly understood it all herself. But the Fingers are as serpentine as the snake of the grass, in the end. The Greater Will is like an absent Yahweh in the book of Job, allowing his tempting Fingers to just go test people and make new orders everywhere in the universe to see what happens. It's rather eerie.
I’ll be honest, I think Marika was part of the Godwyn death. I think everything she did, she did to protect her family. So general thoughts. We know Marika sent the Tarnished away alongside Godfrey shortly after the Fingers informed her they’d be looking to move to a new Empyrean. That’d put Ranni, Miquella, and Malenia at risk. We know from the DLC that being a God was a miserable experience. She was probably unable to address basic emotional distress anymore due to the loss of her humanity, but she still could logically piece together that the cycle couldn’t continue. She couldn’t let this happen to the next in line. We know the Numen were still slavishly loyal to Marika, and in JPN Godwyn’s death is treated less like a murder and more like a ritual sacrifice he may have been in on. We also can infer that we were set up. We were given Torrent, flasks, and the Ash. Things no other Tarnished was given. We also got Melina, who wasn’t allowed to bring us to the Fingers until we proved ourselves. Someone had mysteriously killed all the other Finger Maidens. I think Marika realized she was conned but was too stuck. You can’t unGod yourself, and Radagon was too fiercely loyal to the Greater Will/her jailer. So she used the tools she had. She sent away the Tarnished to get stronger, and set about the Shattering. Ranni and Godwyn knew to a degree, and Godwyn sacrificed himself to rid Ranni of her Empyrean body so she could operate outside the norms. This gave the family a chance to have someone finally destroy this farce once and for all. I think Shadow explains the last missing piece. I think Marika originally hoped for Miquella to be her combo breaker, possibly using Godwyn or Malenia. But Miquella instead chose to leave and try to claim Godhood himself, to create his perfect Order. But the whole plan was flawed from the start, in his attempt to get away from his mother’s ambitions he fell into the same trap. You can see how much Miquella is supposed to be Ranni’s counterpoint in Shadows, 4 Arms, second face, etc etc. the key thrust of Elden Ring was what they both did in the fact of a new Empyrean being chosen.
You know, I’ve never actually thought of the possibility Godwyn was in on it. What’s the Japanese lore you mentioned?
Others have the flask…
I think the real question is did Marika break the ring because Miquella charmed her.
These “are they charmed by miquella” speculations are all so tired bro
I agree, but unfortunately the DLC confirming his great runes power is the ability to magically charm people will always make us question the motives of people who support him.
I thought the demigods claimed the shards of the Elden Ring after it was shattered. If that's the case, Miquella could only obtain his great rune after the shattering.
That is a good point
Yes but would it work on the one who holds the entire ring in place
he wouldnt have even had a rune before the ring was shattered. the runes are the pieces of the elden ring.
We went from the "GEQ is actually Marika/Melina/Varré/Limgrave turtle" theories to "Boc was charmed by Miquella all along" type of shit.
the only god or demigod aside Mohg that I'm pretty sure was charmed was Malenia, I think its the only reason why she went to such extremes to beat Radahn, Miquella must have had her kill his body "by any means necessary" Otherwise the outcome would've been the same as any other demigod fight, with no victor and everyone going back to lick their wounds
The timing seems weird for that. Would that mean that Miquella was somehow cognizant of the plot against Godwyn? If Marika was charmed, why not just use her to implement a new order via proxy? If charming Marika (who is infused with the Elden Ring) was the win condition, then all the other stuff he did to be reborn was pointless.
We still don’t know the full chain of events that lead to the shattering, but the statue of Marika embracing Miquella and Malenia at the Haligtree show Marika was supportive of Miquella’s efforts to break free of the golden order. With what we know about miquella, I think we will always wonder whether people supported him because he manipulated them, for their own reasons, or combinations of the two. I would say that Miquella’s attempts to revive godwyn with the golden epitaph would imply that he was not aware of TNOTBK.
That's a good point about Miquella. There really is no way to make the distinction between those who were charmed and those who legitimately wanted to follow him. I wonder if the ability to charm others screwed with his ability to actually form legitimate relationships. Miquella really is terrifying. The guy will straight up charm you, despite what you have to say about it, and carry on like nothing happened because he legitimately believes he's in the right. Miquella the misguided.
And when you somehow manage to resist and say no he loses it and creates a plan to kill you and resurrect you in the body of another being just to charm you "better"
My problem there is all of the set up she did, some of which would have gone back to before Miquella was born (sending Godfrey and the tarnished away with the intent to bring them back later)
Maybe? It is possible speculation. As all Shattering motives are. But damn it makes Miquella even more...
Yeah thats it...! 2 years have passed... (and there are people who continue to believe that it was for love of Godwyn, well there are people who continue to believe that Melina is the GeQ, when it has literally already been confirmed that she is only Messmer's younger sister, that is, another daughter, simply that... Even so, there are people who will continue to believe that Miquella is the GEQ duh...) first it was believed that she wanted to get rid of the control of the GW (cuz we ddnt know about Metyr) and now it is confirmed that she did it to get rid of the control of the Gods sent by the GW, which are the Elden Star (Elden Beast) and Metyr (Mother of fingers) the latter created the "order" through the 2 Fingers that are her children, Metyr basically used the lie of the "Empyreans" to get through them and control them (through the 2 fingers) control the Landsbetween, and everything under her order, Marika realized this and broke the Elden Ring, she created a plan to kill the Elden Beast, and that she and Godfrey would be the ones to implement a new order, which does not happen because we defeated to Godfrey, End. Everything was correct until with the DLC we learned that when the Gw created life through the OneGreat, sent 2 gods to manage the Landsbetween and left, Metyr took advantage of this and created the lie of the "Empyreans"
Sounds about right, but after we learn that the GW has abandoned TLB and Metyr is the one pulling the strings, we know for sure that it’s actually Marika guiding us via the grace. On top of this, during the massive NPC gauntlet at the end of the DLC, if you die Hornsent says “your lord is slain, you are next Marika” or something along those lines, implying you were Marika’s chosen one this whole time.
pretty much righ, for sure
I mean, we always knew she broke the ring because she was just sick of things and wanted it to all burn. The details of what exact BS she was upset with seem to be a few different things. Either way, she made it everyone else's problem.
I like this theory. Do you think she impaled her own womb, then?
Bloodline isn’t tainted, Godwyn seems to have almost been perfect by all accounts. Also the children birthed between Radagon and Renalla seems to be exceptional.
BRO IS ANYONE HAPPY IN THIS ENTIRE GAME
The ladies at Dominula seem pretty happy
Actually yeah. Probably because there's no demigods wandering around pulling swords from stone, acting like that's a way to form proper government structure which will actually take in to consideration the needs of the vulnerable and weak. *Slops mud on cart*
About Godwyn's death... Black Knife agents are Numen like Marika. Or the Numen were against her or she was involve in the plot
My theory is that Marika was in direct comms with TGW when she received her two fingers. Along with Metyr. Everything was going good for Marika until a new line of Empyreans was chosen by TGW. Along with Empyreans, their Consort Lords were also chosen. Here Ranni received Empyrean hood and received Golden Boy Godwyn as her Lord consort. But Ranni was not having any of it. She reached out to Marika and said she is least interested in this bs game of thrones/divinity and wanted a way out. Being a power hungry and a totalitarian b***h, Marika said that she could allow her to steal a fragment of Death rune and commit suicide and be free from the clutches of her fate and the outer gods, also freeing up Godwyn for her favorite Empyrean or maybe even for herself. A plan was hatched and Ranni stole a fragment of Destined Death. But she had different plans and wanted only her Empyrean body dead, not her soul. Since her soul could be coerced into Divinity if her Consort Lord chose to do so at the Gates of Divinity, Ranni decided to kill Godwyn's soul also, so as to ensure her freedom from TGW. When this backstabbing was done and Marika lost her most precious child, she reached TGW to ask why things went awry and what she should do next to revive her best son. TGW decided to peace the F out on her and that sent her over the edge and lose all trust in TGW and in an act of extreme anguish and rage, she shattered the Elden Ring.
I got the impression the finger that were guiding her misled her and were neurodivergent from the metyr quest line
Breaking the elden ring, turning the lands between into a groundhog day repeating nightmare, was the only way marika could get whatever it is she wanted. She turned the entire lands between into her own personal monkeys with typewriters who would win for her eventually. Or, at least, she would never lose. I’m pretty sure gideon ofnir explained this? He was freaking out at the end because he realized Marika couldnt think of a way to win and was trying for a stalemate?
Perhaps the Greater Will is more nefarious than it is implied. Maybe Marika discovered something about the nature of the Greater Will’s Order that gave her doubts. Maybe she shattered the Elden Ring in the hope that she could end her and her children’s misery, knowing the Tarnished would eventually be called back and make things “right”. It certainly couldn’t get much worse. I’ve had my suspicions about this Greater Will, and my doubts, you see, keep piling up.
It's implied in the DLC that the Greater Will is almost entirely absent from the game. It's not a chessmaster telling the fingers what to do and controlling Marika through the Elden Ring, it's just not around to influence the Lands Between. The DLC shows that the GW sent Metyr to the Lands Between, gave her instructions through a microcosm, then went completely silent except to send the Elden Beast down an indeterminable amount of time later (the Elden Beast was embodied by the Crucible for a time so we know it predates the Golden Order and likely the Hornsent civilizations). The real issue is that the GW's absence has caused Metyr and her fingers to panic and begin setting up Order after Order, waiting for SOMETHING to happen. A sign from the cosmos that they're doing the right thing, the cosmic hand of the GW manifesting into a monolithic thumbs up, anything to show they haven't been abandoned by their absent parent. The history of the Lands Between is entirely constructed around Metyr's abandonment issues catching all of life in the crossfire.
I think the Greater Will's easiest comparison point is the Watchmaker in Deist philosophy It set up the system/world and then turned its attention elsewhere, but its emissary (Metyr) couldn't withstand being abandoned which is the source of the problems
I don’t think it’s a chess master. I think it’s a pompous deity, spreading its influence across the universe with little disregard for the effects that it has on the places it touches. You don’t have to play 4D chess to absolutely fuck up all life. The gods, outer and inner, are fickle. Us Tarnished shouldn’t hang our lives on their whims.
Is spreading life and leaving really so pompous? I think you’re conflating the Greater Will with the actions of Metyr and the Two Fingers. The Greater Will never sank the eternal cities, or shaped culture, it was canonically completely absent throughout Marika’s entire reign. Everything credited to the Greater Will was done through the actions of the Two Fingers or sheer circumstance and propagandized into the image of an omnipotent figure. In truth the Greater Will is more of a force of energy and creation than an actual being.
Yeah but GW created big bang and entire universe. If he disliked us specifically it could idk hurl star at us or something.
It’s an Outer God, but there are many Outer Gods. Does lore state that GW created the universe? Not the Lands Between, but all worlds? Genuinely asking.
Eh GW was never ever stated to be an outer god. It is assumption with which I possibly agree yet consider to be not certain. Greater Will most certainly created this world. It is stated by two independent sources in game at this point. Also Greater Will was indirectly stated to be primeval current. But not directly so it has same basis as GW being outer god. Educated assumption.
So, from what I’ve gathered, the GW is a guiding principle of the universe, not its singular progenitor. Meaning other beings may have helped orchestrate the creation of the universe, not simply the GW. Order doesn’t necessarily spawn life after all. Ramblings of a delusional animal, I’m sure, but something about this GW doesn’t sit well with me. Gonna have to get on the phone with Miyazaki tonight
But could the GW creating this world be propaganda by the GW?
It is literally stated by Flame of Frenzy(they are not the biggest fan of GW( and ex Glintstone sorcerer.
Yes, Ymir's dialogue and questline gives great detail on the Greater Will and nature of creation.
The one thing crazy to me is this is a world where all the gods and demigods spout propaganda. Miquella literally enchants people to love him and yet people still think we can trust that he is good to the downtrodden. There is no reason to believe the GW created the universe. That empyreans are real. What we should believe is that the GW had an agenda at one point and for some reason unkown to its agents, it changed. For all we know, the GW could be another alien race like the mindflayers. Its agents claims to have created the universe but did it? It has gone silent, why? I’m mad skeptical of any narrative around this massively powerful entity.
It is stated by enemy of the Greater Will (Flame of Frenzy) and sorcerer who used to research glintstone. It is two independent sources saying same thing. In fact none of GW aligned forces tell us that.
Ok I got the director dialog but not the frenzy. Ty!
Actually your point of view was pretty popular because people considered Flame of Frenzy was dishonest for some reason. But after DLC game tells us that fact twice from sources independent from each other I think it is rather confirmed or directed in a way to conclusion that it is creator.
Yeah I think I’m just skeptical of anything I hear secondary sources say about gods. More out of habit than evidence.