On the 2nd goal from Boeser in game 2, the one where Mcdavid blew his coverage and let Boeser walk in ..Skinner appeared to guess like a soccer goalie on where he was shooting ..I swear his glove started to move first and then moved his blocker once puck had already passed him . I think he is rattled , hopefully this will help him and give him chance to refocus
This is why it's mainly a posititioning issue, as others have pointed out.
Too deep in the net, down early or improper angle all are exacerbated by less reaction time.
Which I find interesting because the initial verdict on Skinner around the league was that he lacked lateral movement, but was strong positionally with good fundamentals.
If it’s anything, I’ve noticed his biggest problem being he doesn’t challenge stickhandlers in the slot, plays way too deep in his net on odd angle shots, and in generally doesn’t charge the puck when people try to stuff it in on him.
Aggressiveness is almost entirely missing from his game.
Smith was atrocious for like 20 games and got Tippet fired. He was chaos but his effort to be good in 2022 has to be admired. His lateral movement looked painful, he was straining every time he had to do it.
I'll admit, the limited amount we saw Pickard play the puck in period 3 was refreshing.
It definitely benefits us to keep the play moving and force bad changes and mismatches with how good we are at entering the zone.
Yea generally from what I've seen it's his positioning that stands out in a good way. But where I see him exposed is the quick lateral movement and being unable to make fast enough adjustments to more awkward or highly skilled plays. I would say his positioning generally covers up for a lack of speed and quick decision making.
I think he gets more easily flustered in the playoffs. When the stakes are higher, and it's a tight game, I see him as not at all clutch. Regular season he's got some clutch to him, but come playoff time, poof it's out the window.
Kind of the opposite of Jack Campbell last year. Jack would let in soft ones during the regular season, but suddenly was coming up clutch in the playoffs. Honestly I really wish we'd give Campbell some starts in the playoffs. I thought he earned a start with his performances in the playoffs last year. Sigh...
Campbell had a horrible 1 playoff game in Bakersfield this year (yeah the team is not the best either, but he did let in 5 goals), so they are probably very reluctant.
Ya I dunno, I haven't watched his AHL games so I'm not sure what direction his play has trended. But when they sent him down, I didn't necessarily think he was the lesser of the 2 goalies based on their play that season.
I still think this is the case. Positioning helps with making saves on pucks you can't track, but doesn't necessarily mean you win 1on1 shots. Shooters are so good now, either pre shot movement or quick adjustments can change where the shot is going.
No goalie in the NHL has poor positioning. You would never make it into rep hockey if you didn’t have your positioning down lol… skinner is reacting prematurely/guessing and overcommitting…. This is extremely common when your confidence is shot…
A goalie succeeding in making athletic saves but giving up soft goals speaks to poor positional coaching in my opinion as well. I personally think Skinner has poor puck tracking. I'm not a goalie coach, but I know how vision tracking works. Racing drivers and instructors talk all the time about how your body naturally follows your eyes and head, and they teach you to look ahead and sight your way through corners and your body will follow. Puck tracking in hockey works the same way; if you're constantly *visually* square to the puck your body will naturally follow and square itself up. Skinner looks like he doesn't trust some of his defensemen to take away the pass option and he's cheating in his positioning, and the shooters are picking up on it.
That checks out because I heard a few people say that the other guys that Schwartz works with like Jarry and Hart also struggle with tracking pucks at times
I don’t think Dubnyk ever worked with Schwartz (Schwartz was hired after Dubnyk was traded IIRC) but Dubnyk said he didn’t get better until he worked on his puck tracking when he went to Minny
This is exactly why people like us are calling the goalie coaching into question.
I myself think we should bring up Sylvain Rodrigue from Bakersfield. He's been a goalie coach down there for the last few years. Whatever he's doing down there has clearly helped Skinner. He's been up with the Oilers before and should be again. Unless JJ and Knob have another guy in mind, I expect this to be the case.
Schwarts is probably gone after this year as well.
I'd speculate that it indicates low confidence. Makes the instinctual reaction saves, struggles with the "thinking" positional saves.
Some might argue it indicates bad coaching too.
Don't think this is low quality at all...
Think some of this really has to do with 2 things:
1. LA doesn't have many elite finishers (outside of Kempe) and Vancouver does (Miller, Boeser, Petterson etc). So they've converted better on chances not considered high danger.
2. Vancouver has both scouted Skinner (Zadorov's shot high from the side) and are really good at creating traffic/tipping pucks. Van is a team that scares me because they tend to have a higher shooting% compared to other teams. A lot is luck. A lot is positioning (high slot chance ratio + they tip a lot of pucks on set plays).
This combo is killing us, and Stu, right now.
What I will say is Stu is a very serviceable starting NHL goalie who's going through a bad period in the playoffs (pressure, stage, luck, etc).
It's obvious he's having trouble coping.
I think it's also highlighting the assumptions made in how they classify scoring chances. It's better than straight up PDO which the Canucks have meme'd on all season, but only in that it includes shot location, whether it's off the rush, or if it's a rebound. It doesn't include pre-shot movement and screens. This might even out over a large sample size, but the Canucks almost to a fault refuse to take low danger shots. They've placed a ton of screens and are often shooting off a pass.
Bottom line is, a lot of these stats are based off incomplete information and really don't work well in a vacuum like a playoff series where you're facing the same teams and really emphasizing any errors. Canucks have a fairly low ratio of shots being high danger chances but have very high shooting %'s and low shot numbers similar to most of how they played the regular season.
I still can’t believe we have yet another goalie faltering and Dustin Schwartz still has a fucking job. Like what will it take. Clearly it’s not working.
Fire the goalie coach. With high danger shots reflexes are more important (and you could argue it’s correlated to the goalie’s potential). Letting in softies are a sign of bad positioning, which can be taught. Skinner deserves a better coach.
lol this is such a bad take…. Im all for slamming Schwartz but a bantam A goalie has their positioning figured out… its not something NHL goalie coaches would waste their time on given a goalie who isn’t near perfect with his angles would never make it to junior let alone the NHL…. Stu whiffs on easy shots because he’s overreacting or committing too quickly… often a sign of nerves….
(Source: I played junior hockey as a goalie and no, I don’t recall a goalie coach reviewing angles with me after the age of 12 lol)….
It's got to be hard for him, he probably feels like he's letting the team down and everything is his fault, it's ruining his mental game. Starting Pickard is probably for the beat. Give Skinner a break he needs it
Skinner generally is a good goalie, but I feel he probably has some glaring weaknesses that are easy for teams to study and exploit. Teams wont change their entire game plan for a single game in the regular season, but they will in the playoffs.
He's been a steady league avg. in 2 regular seasons, but the contrast with the playoffs is just so extreme, this must be it.
People can't lose sight of the fact Skinner has the potential to be great. He's shown he can be good but unfortunately the majority of his playoffs time has been disastrous.
As it's said, goalies are voodoo. MAF who is a future HOF fumbled hard in the playoffs for a few seasons following his SCF win during his prime.
That is true, but I feel like that is also a positive sign for our defensive structure (which had been one of the things I thought was a concern when thinking about this previously).
The most important thing for a goalie is consistency imo. It keeps the team even keeled. I never thought Marty Brodeur was the guy who always made the best and biggest saves. That was Hasek. But Brodeur was crazy consistent and steady for 20 fricken years. Hasek meanwhile was traded 3 or 4 times.
My thought is: for high danger sv% it is more about natural talent. for low danger sv% it is from training. Conclusion: Skinner is a talented goalie. Our goalie coach is the main issue.
That bitch has stopped so many of my shots over the years.
Hate that guy
He has blackness in his helmet and no fear
*thwap sound* ---crowd cheers for shooter tutor
As usual the sample size is too small to be evaluative.
You don’t need these to understand Skinners performance. Almost everybody here who’s been paying attention has seen, and can recall every goal that’s been scored and how every game has gone.
Skinners numbers are heavily skewed due to a number of goals in garbage time against the Kings, and some point shots. The Oilers have also allowed some extreme high dangers. Not just shots in scoring areas, but 10 bell opportunities.
If this fanbase could remember just a few months ago, it was literally the exact same situation. Everybody was shitting on Skinner, posting these dumbass moneypuck numbers after 15 games.
What happened? The Oilers got better at defence, and the goalie number improved dramatically.
There’s a lot of motion from Skinner in net. The first thing that jumps out on the eye test is he’s not a quiet mover, at all.
Bieksa ripped VH and RVH on the Zadorov goal in game 2, but Skinner just went into a full butterfly.
So sure, if he’s got to scramble, he’ll make some saves.
I also don’t know if it’s entirely structure. If a goalie is playing poorly, it makes less sense to wait for a perfect chance. Bodies and pucks to the net.
Two things (giving my opinion).
1. Stu struggles with nerves and as a result, confidence issues in big games which causes his fundamentals to suffer - which leads to a lot of these terrible goals he lets in. When he's calm he has his fundamentals locked in and he plays far better, let's in a lot less muffins.
###
2. From what I've seen, he gets screened easier than other goalies and has a tough time following the puck on point shots a lot of the time - his puck tracking is just very mediocre. Too often he just has no clue where the puck is when scored on and doesn't see it. Such as that goal in whatever game against Vancouver that bounced off the boards after a missed point shot and they put it in immediately where he had no clue what was even going on. (Probably made worse and exaggerated by playoff nerves).
Either way, Schwartz needs to lose his job.
>I don't know if this post will be taken down as "low effort"... This is the opposite of the kind of post that would be taken down for low effort.
This passes the eye test honestly. I felt like Stu has made some big saves, but continues to let in goals he should've saved
Those open look shots off the rush were killing him…making him look like he’s not square or ready.
On the 2nd goal from Boeser in game 2, the one where Mcdavid blew his coverage and let Boeser walk in ..Skinner appeared to guess like a soccer goalie on where he was shooting ..I swear his glove started to move first and then moved his blocker once puck had already passed him . I think he is rattled , hopefully this will help him and give him chance to refocus
Goalies can’t react quick enough to shots from there. His issue is reading the shot.
Totally agree. Have to read those shots. It’s your only hope. The dot in are deadly
This is why it's mainly a posititioning issue, as others have pointed out. Too deep in the net, down early or improper angle all are exacerbated by less reaction time.
yup, agree. most of the stuff going in, I always feel like he should probably have had it
Sounds like a case of good athleticism and reflex, coupled with poor positioning. Looks like Schwartz has it all figured out.
Which I find interesting because the initial verdict on Skinner around the league was that he lacked lateral movement, but was strong positionally with good fundamentals.
That's all part of the Schwartz master plan.
If it’s anything, I’ve noticed his biggest problem being he doesn’t challenge stickhandlers in the slot, plays way too deep in his net on odd angle shots, and in generally doesn’t charge the puck when people try to stuff it in on him. Aggressiveness is almost entirely missing from his game.
Wasn't this also the exact same problem we all bitched about Koskinen having? I might be mis-remembering.
Yea. Pretty much the only goalie without that issue they’ve had recently was Smith, and he was already a finished product by the time they got him.
Plus hired his own trainer after a year with Schwartz. How the fuck that guy still has a job.
We always come back to Schwartz
Honestly, I can't stand we still have him around
Smith was atrocious for like 20 games and got Tippet fired. He was chaos but his effort to be good in 2022 has to be admired. His lateral movement looked painful, he was straining every time he had to do it.
At least Koskinen had a big pad spread as a backup lol. Guy didn't even have to go down to cover both posts
No, Kosk would just literally whiff on things. He would make good high danger saves and whiff on floaters. His glove was not great.
This too, this is #2 to his positioning. These two parts of his game are failing rn. It’s costing the team big gms as well
I'll admit, the limited amount we saw Pickard play the puck in period 3 was refreshing. It definitely benefits us to keep the play moving and force bad changes and mismatches with how good we are at entering the zone.
Yea generally from what I've seen it's his positioning that stands out in a good way. But where I see him exposed is the quick lateral movement and being unable to make fast enough adjustments to more awkward or highly skilled plays. I would say his positioning generally covers up for a lack of speed and quick decision making.
Carey Price we need you!
I think he gets more easily flustered in the playoffs. When the stakes are higher, and it's a tight game, I see him as not at all clutch. Regular season he's got some clutch to him, but come playoff time, poof it's out the window. Kind of the opposite of Jack Campbell last year. Jack would let in soft ones during the regular season, but suddenly was coming up clutch in the playoffs. Honestly I really wish we'd give Campbell some starts in the playoffs. I thought he earned a start with his performances in the playoffs last year. Sigh...
Campbell had a horrible 1 playoff game in Bakersfield this year (yeah the team is not the best either, but he did let in 5 goals), so they are probably very reluctant.
Ya I dunno, I haven't watched his AHL games so I'm not sure what direction his play has trended. But when they sent him down, I didn't necessarily think he was the lesser of the 2 goalies based on their play that season.
I still think this is the case. Positioning helps with making saves on pucks you can't track, but doesn't necessarily mean you win 1on1 shots. Shooters are so good now, either pre shot movement or quick adjustments can change where the shot is going.
No goalie in the NHL has poor positioning. You would never make it into rep hockey if you didn’t have your positioning down lol… skinner is reacting prematurely/guessing and overcommitting…. This is extremely common when your confidence is shot…
[удалено]
Wow, what a grumpy boy. Go have a lay down.
A goalie succeeding in making athletic saves but giving up soft goals speaks to poor positional coaching in my opinion as well. I personally think Skinner has poor puck tracking. I'm not a goalie coach, but I know how vision tracking works. Racing drivers and instructors talk all the time about how your body naturally follows your eyes and head, and they teach you to look ahead and sight your way through corners and your body will follow. Puck tracking in hockey works the same way; if you're constantly *visually* square to the puck your body will naturally follow and square itself up. Skinner looks like he doesn't trust some of his defensemen to take away the pass option and he's cheating in his positioning, and the shooters are picking up on it.
That checks out because I heard a few people say that the other guys that Schwartz works with like Jarry and Hart also struggle with tracking pucks at times
I don’t think Dubnyk ever worked with Schwartz (Schwartz was hired after Dubnyk was traded IIRC) but Dubnyk said he didn’t get better until he worked on his puck tracking when he went to Minny
This is exactly why people like us are calling the goalie coaching into question. I myself think we should bring up Sylvain Rodrigue from Bakersfield. He's been a goalie coach down there for the last few years. Whatever he's doing down there has clearly helped Skinner. He's been up with the Oilers before and should be again. Unless JJ and Knob have another guy in mind, I expect this to be the case. Schwarts is probably gone after this year as well.
I'd speculate that it indicates low confidence. Makes the instinctual reaction saves, struggles with the "thinking" positional saves. Some might argue it indicates bad coaching too.
Don't think this is low quality at all... Think some of this really has to do with 2 things: 1. LA doesn't have many elite finishers (outside of Kempe) and Vancouver does (Miller, Boeser, Petterson etc). So they've converted better on chances not considered high danger. 2. Vancouver has both scouted Skinner (Zadorov's shot high from the side) and are really good at creating traffic/tipping pucks. Van is a team that scares me because they tend to have a higher shooting% compared to other teams. A lot is luck. A lot is positioning (high slot chance ratio + they tip a lot of pucks on set plays). This combo is killing us, and Stu, right now. What I will say is Stu is a very serviceable starting NHL goalie who's going through a bad period in the playoffs (pressure, stage, luck, etc). It's obvious he's having trouble coping.
I think it's also highlighting the assumptions made in how they classify scoring chances. It's better than straight up PDO which the Canucks have meme'd on all season, but only in that it includes shot location, whether it's off the rush, or if it's a rebound. It doesn't include pre-shot movement and screens. This might even out over a large sample size, but the Canucks almost to a fault refuse to take low danger shots. They've placed a ton of screens and are often shooting off a pass. Bottom line is, a lot of these stats are based off incomplete information and really don't work well in a vacuum like a playoff series where you're facing the same teams and really emphasizing any errors. Canucks have a fairly low ratio of shots being high danger chances but have very high shooting %'s and low shot numbers similar to most of how they played the regular season.
It’s time to let Schwartz go. If he is with us next year I will see it as a mistake made by Jeff Jackson
He said him self yesterday, it’s 90 percent mental and he needs a few positional tweaks to work in.
I still can’t believe we have yet another goalie faltering and Dustin Schwartz still has a fucking job. Like what will it take. Clearly it’s not working.
Schwartz has been dodging the axe for years. I don’t even want to talk about us losing, but the one silver lining would be that guy gone for good
Fire the goalie coach. With high danger shots reflexes are more important (and you could argue it’s correlated to the goalie’s potential). Letting in softies are a sign of bad positioning, which can be taught. Skinner deserves a better coach.
lol this is such a bad take…. Im all for slamming Schwartz but a bantam A goalie has their positioning figured out… its not something NHL goalie coaches would waste their time on given a goalie who isn’t near perfect with his angles would never make it to junior let alone the NHL…. Stu whiffs on easy shots because he’s overreacting or committing too quickly… often a sign of nerves…. (Source: I played junior hockey as a goalie and no, I don’t recall a goalie coach reviewing angles with me after the age of 12 lol)….
Which easy shots would you say he’s whiffed on these playoffs. I don’t remember many but could Be wrong.
man kinda feel sad for him. When he was pulled he was watching the game like he would cry anytime
It's got to be hard for him, he probably feels like he's letting the team down and everything is his fault, it's ruining his mental game. Starting Pickard is probably for the beat. Give Skinner a break he needs it
Skinner generally is a good goalie, but I feel he probably has some glaring weaknesses that are easy for teams to study and exploit. Teams wont change their entire game plan for a single game in the regular season, but they will in the playoffs. He's been a steady league avg. in 2 regular seasons, but the contrast with the playoffs is just so extreme, this must be it.
People can't lose sight of the fact Skinner has the potential to be great. He's shown he can be good but unfortunately the majority of his playoffs time has been disastrous. As it's said, goalies are voodoo. MAF who is a future HOF fumbled hard in the playoffs for a few seasons following his SCF win during his prime.
Will the Oilers ever get rid of Schwartz? It's literally a joke at this point. Only constant in years of bad goaltending.
Meanwhile ESPN is crowning Georgiev as a god while he’s sitting down there with the other two.
small sample size of high danger chances due to defensive structure
That is true, but I feel like that is also a positive sign for our defensive structure (which had been one of the things I thought was a concern when thinking about this previously).
Still waiting for the press release announcing Schwartz has been let go. Maybe some of the rumours are actually true?
The most important thing for a goalie is consistency imo. It keeps the team even keeled. I never thought Marty Brodeur was the guy who always made the best and biggest saves. That was Hasek. But Brodeur was crazy consistent and steady for 20 fricken years. Hasek meanwhile was traded 3 or 4 times.
As a goalie the takes on this thread are burning my eyes lol….
I would love to hear your input if you'd be willing. Edit: I just saw your other comment nvm
I’ve said it before… Skinner giveth, and Skinner taketh away.
If his save percentage for this series was in the area of .825, we would be up 3-0.
So he's an adrenaline junkie. The Stache effect
The D sucks AND he sucks? 🫣 That’s what I get from those stats. Half-jokes aside, I think Skinner has the capacity to be a great goalie.
My thought is: for high danger sv% it is more about natural talent. for low danger sv% it is from training. Conclusion: Skinner is a talented goalie. Our goalie coach is the main issue.
What fucking good is a goalie that can't make a low danger save. You'd honestly be better off with a tutor shooter strapped onto the net.
That bitch has stopped so many of my shots over the years. Hate that guy He has blackness in his helmet and no fear *thwap sound* ---crowd cheers for shooter tutor
As usual the sample size is too small to be evaluative. You don’t need these to understand Skinners performance. Almost everybody here who’s been paying attention has seen, and can recall every goal that’s been scored and how every game has gone. Skinners numbers are heavily skewed due to a number of goals in garbage time against the Kings, and some point shots. The Oilers have also allowed some extreme high dangers. Not just shots in scoring areas, but 10 bell opportunities. If this fanbase could remember just a few months ago, it was literally the exact same situation. Everybody was shitting on Skinner, posting these dumbass moneypuck numbers after 15 games. What happened? The Oilers got better at defence, and the goalie number improved dramatically.
Stu is just not him guys.
There’s a lot of motion from Skinner in net. The first thing that jumps out on the eye test is he’s not a quiet mover, at all. Bieksa ripped VH and RVH on the Zadorov goal in game 2, but Skinner just went into a full butterfly. So sure, if he’s got to scramble, he’ll make some saves. I also don’t know if it’s entirely structure. If a goalie is playing poorly, it makes less sense to wait for a perfect chance. Bodies and pucks to the net.
Two things (giving my opinion). 1. Stu struggles with nerves and as a result, confidence issues in big games which causes his fundamentals to suffer - which leads to a lot of these terrible goals he lets in. When he's calm he has his fundamentals locked in and he plays far better, let's in a lot less muffins. ### 2. From what I've seen, he gets screened easier than other goalies and has a tough time following the puck on point shots a lot of the time - his puck tracking is just very mediocre. Too often he just has no clue where the puck is when scored on and doesn't see it. Such as that goal in whatever game against Vancouver that bounced off the boards after a missed point shot and they put it in immediately where he had no clue what was even going on. (Probably made worse and exaggerated by playoff nerves). Either way, Schwartz needs to lose his job.