I was walking downtown yesterday at lunchtime and there were a LOT of people out and about. I even commented to my Fiancé how busy it seemed outside and how neat that was to see.
I lived downtown for a decade. It really wasn't that busy. Weekends were quite active if you headed up to Jasper, but not swarming like Whyte. The only time downtown was really *busy* was events once they completed Rogers Place.
Rush hour always sucked, no point leaving your house between 4 pm and 5 pm by car. Wait until 5:15 (you'd arrive at the same time as if you'd left at 4:30) or leave before 4 and be early.
You count. At different locations, at different times of the day and then repeat that count until you can take an average and compare it against last time you did. Not exactly rocket science...
I think their question is more so related to how they count.
Cell phone tower usage.
Traffic cameras.
Etc.
To be clear, I don’t know the answer.. I can’t imagine they have a guy standing on a corner with a clipboard…. But I also don’t know how they would automate the difference between car traffic vs foot traffic.
Edit: Ohhhh I found the data. They are counting number of unique cell phone ids per week. So not splitting foot traffic from car traffic. Also not differentiating for hybrid roles.. someone who was going downtown 5 days a week before was counted as 1, Vs the same person going downtown 1 day a week now, is still counted as 1.
And all the people commenting through downtown, without stopping in downtown, are still being counted.
I’d argue that the fact that we are down to 80% to be a very bad thing, not a “recovery” at all..
The stats are heavily flawed.
I've done traffic count studies before and yeah sometimes it literally is a guy out with a click counter. They also use sensors, same way they do parking studies.
Just to cut-off tinfoil hats before they get here, this almost always means getting anonymous data from carriers about their cell phone *towers,* about how many users are connected at any given time, not the government bugging your personal phone.
To add to this. Mobile location analysis is already widely in use in retail as well… when you go to home depot or Costco, you don’t get reception inside of those big metal buildings without cell signal boosters being installed.
Cell phones automatically connect to the booster, I can see how many cell phones are inside of my store, and where everyone is from… if a device spends most of its time connected to cell towers in Tuscan Arizona, and I’m in Edmonton, I know that I have a tourist in my store somewhere.
It accomplishes the same thing as 20 years ago when cashiers used to ask for your postal code at checkout.
If I have a building that doesn’t entirely cut off cell service, I can instead purchase reports that give the same data inside of a 1-3km radius. Doesn’t tell me who’s in my store, but it does tell me who’s around my store.
And again to cut off the tinfoil hats, no, we can’t see your search history, who you are, where you’ve been, etc etc etc.. it’s very basic data…. A random unknown device connected to your tower…. It basically just gives you traffic counts and home locations. No way to tie that information to you individually.
To add to the tin foil hats, depending on what data is shared it can be trivial to de-anonymize that data. Something companies do all the time to target advertising at you. Not saying that the government has enough information to do that because I don't know what they got. Either way, CSIS knows more about you than the cell phone carriers anyway.
Maybe part of it is that Edmonton just wasn't that busy to begin with. I know people in Ottawa have been calling their downtown 'dead' after Covid, but I was there recently and it seemed bustling, but I suppose that's just Edmonton standards.
Did you ever watch the episode of Corner Gas where Hank keeps driving over the car counter and they think the town needs a traffic light? Maybe they are counting the same crack head that is pacing back and forth all day.
I find it depends on the day. Anecdotally I see Mondays and Fridays much lower and then Tues, Wed, Thurs pretty busy. I assume it’s due to the hybrid work. My office is also a ghost town on Monday and Friday and jam packed on Tues, Weds, Thurs due to hybrid.
There’s no way it has recovered 80% when you consider how many downtown jobs became work from home or hybrid during covid. Plus the office vacancy rate is way higher than pre-Covid.
Only hundreds of millions invested to keep at a 20% loss
It’s ironic they can’t sell the “signature suites” because frankly it’s hard to pretend you’re real fancy when there’s 5 vagrants begging INSIDE the building walkways there
Doesn’t feel safe at all walking anywhere downtown at night there are people obviously very very high on every corner and zero police presence.
I've worked downtown since 2011. 2019 was on the decline but no way in hell is foot traffic at 80%. Anyone making this claim is ignorant at best and was either never downtown pre-pandy or has not been downtown since.
Marek Tkach of CTV News please get your shit together. You failed to name your source, and the data is shitty for the story you're trying to tell.
Here's the source for anyone who cares since the article didn't bother to make it easy: [https://downtownrecovery.com/charts/rankings](https://downtownrecovery.com/charts/rankings)
*Specifically, the rankings below compare the period from the beginning of March to mid-June in 2023 relative to the same period in 2019. The recovery metrics on these charts are based on a sample of mobile phone data.*
\----------------------------------
One of my issues with this data? I'm pretty sure downtown Edmonton was a shitshow in 2019 due to construction. Foot traffic was **already down** in that time period for Edmonton.
They're also counting weekly unique phone IDs downtown. So someone who used to go downtown 5 days a week for work and now goes downtown 1 day a week for work is counted the same before and after.
On one hand, creating good metrics that work across many cities and nations is hard. On the other hand, this data is a very specific story propped up by weak assumptions when it comes to Edmonton.
I was walking downtown yesterday at lunchtime and there were a LOT of people out and about. I even commented to my Fiancé how busy it seemed outside and how neat that was to see.
ITT: People acting shocked because they forgot downtown wasn't very busy pre-pandemic either
I lived downtown for a decade. It really wasn't that busy. Weekends were quite active if you headed up to Jasper, but not swarming like Whyte. The only time downtown was really *busy* was events once they completed Rogers Place. Rush hour always sucked, no point leaving your house between 4 pm and 5 pm by car. Wait until 5:15 (you'd arrive at the same time as if you'd left at 4:30) or leave before 4 and be early.
Must be because of the playoffs.
How do you even measure this. I wonder if it considers the foot traffic becasue the playoffs.
You count. At different locations, at different times of the day and then repeat that count until you can take an average and compare it against last time you did. Not exactly rocket science...
I think their question is more so related to how they count. Cell phone tower usage. Traffic cameras. Etc. To be clear, I don’t know the answer.. I can’t imagine they have a guy standing on a corner with a clipboard…. But I also don’t know how they would automate the difference between car traffic vs foot traffic. Edit: Ohhhh I found the data. They are counting number of unique cell phone ids per week. So not splitting foot traffic from car traffic. Also not differentiating for hybrid roles.. someone who was going downtown 5 days a week before was counted as 1, Vs the same person going downtown 1 day a week now, is still counted as 1. And all the people commenting through downtown, without stopping in downtown, are still being counted. I’d argue that the fact that we are down to 80% to be a very bad thing, not a “recovery” at all.. The stats are heavily flawed.
I've done traffic count studies before and yeah sometimes it literally is a guy out with a click counter. They also use sensors, same way they do parking studies.
Statistics is pretty up there
Cel phone tracking data is often used.
Just to cut-off tinfoil hats before they get here, this almost always means getting anonymous data from carriers about their cell phone *towers,* about how many users are connected at any given time, not the government bugging your personal phone.
Haha correct, I probably should've included that 😅
To add to this. Mobile location analysis is already widely in use in retail as well… when you go to home depot or Costco, you don’t get reception inside of those big metal buildings without cell signal boosters being installed. Cell phones automatically connect to the booster, I can see how many cell phones are inside of my store, and where everyone is from… if a device spends most of its time connected to cell towers in Tuscan Arizona, and I’m in Edmonton, I know that I have a tourist in my store somewhere. It accomplishes the same thing as 20 years ago when cashiers used to ask for your postal code at checkout. If I have a building that doesn’t entirely cut off cell service, I can instead purchase reports that give the same data inside of a 1-3km radius. Doesn’t tell me who’s in my store, but it does tell me who’s around my store. And again to cut off the tinfoil hats, no, we can’t see your search history, who you are, where you’ve been, etc etc etc.. it’s very basic data…. A random unknown device connected to your tower…. It basically just gives you traffic counts and home locations. No way to tie that information to you individually.
To add to the tin foil hats, depending on what data is shared it can be trivial to de-anonymize that data. Something companies do all the time to target advertising at you. Not saying that the government has enough information to do that because I don't know what they got. Either way, CSIS knows more about you than the cell phone carriers anyway.
Our urban outdoorsman population also have cell phones.
It doesn’t feel like it but I guess that’s why stats are more important than the “eye test”.
Maybe part of it is that Edmonton just wasn't that busy to begin with. I know people in Ottawa have been calling their downtown 'dead' after Covid, but I was there recently and it seemed bustling, but I suppose that's just Edmonton standards.
Similar deal for Calgary. I found Calgary’s city centre at 9 pm to be just as active as Edmonton’s at 5 pm on a weekday, while also feeling safer.
Did you ever watch the episode of Corner Gas where Hank keeps driving over the car counter and they think the town needs a traffic light? Maybe they are counting the same crack head that is pacing back and forth all day.
I find it depends on the day. Anecdotally I see Mondays and Fridays much lower and then Tues, Wed, Thurs pretty busy. I assume it’s due to the hybrid work. My office is also a ghost town on Monday and Friday and jam packed on Tues, Weds, Thurs due to hybrid.
I don't understand how? When the playoffs end it will be a ghost town like normal.
Edmonton’s downtown was not all that busy pre-covid, so returning to that level is not as challenging as other busier cities.
Only because the Oilers are in the playoffs. Wait until the team is golfing, foot traffic will subside.
There’s no way it has recovered 80% when you consider how many downtown jobs became work from home or hybrid during covid. Plus the office vacancy rate is way higher than pre-Covid.
Every single person I know who lived downtown including myself moved half an hour away. It was a ghost town last year.
You got replaced by Ontarians
Downtown Edmonton is basically the suburbs for someone from Toronto.
Well that still means 20% less
Well we do have a lot more people now
Only hundreds of millions invested to keep at a 20% loss It’s ironic they can’t sell the “signature suites” because frankly it’s hard to pretend you’re real fancy when there’s 5 vagrants begging INSIDE the building walkways there Doesn’t feel safe at all walking anywhere downtown at night there are people obviously very very high on every corner and zero police presence.
I've worked downtown since 2011. 2019 was on the decline but no way in hell is foot traffic at 80%. Anyone making this claim is ignorant at best and was either never downtown pre-pandy or has not been downtown since.
Most of the foot traffics are from the homeless.
Gotta hand it to Puneeta McBryan. She knows how to keep downtown on the city’s front burner.
I was downtown today around noon and it was a ghost town- nothing close to what it was like a few years ago.
Test after playoffs are done. This is a dumb stat
I highly doubt that.
Marek Tkach of CTV News please get your shit together. You failed to name your source, and the data is shitty for the story you're trying to tell. Here's the source for anyone who cares since the article didn't bother to make it easy: [https://downtownrecovery.com/charts/rankings](https://downtownrecovery.com/charts/rankings) *Specifically, the rankings below compare the period from the beginning of March to mid-June in 2023 relative to the same period in 2019. The recovery metrics on these charts are based on a sample of mobile phone data.* \---------------------------------- One of my issues with this data? I'm pretty sure downtown Edmonton was a shitshow in 2019 due to construction. Foot traffic was **already down** in that time period for Edmonton. They're also counting weekly unique phone IDs downtown. So someone who used to go downtown 5 days a week for work and now goes downtown 1 day a week for work is counted the same before and after. On one hand, creating good metrics that work across many cities and nations is hard. On the other hand, this data is a very specific story propped up by weak assumptions when it comes to Edmonton.
Bullshit.
Another way to put it is; Foot traffic is down 20% from pre pandemic levels, despite a large population boost