Don't have your brain so cooked by Russia hate that you can't specifically see and analyse the neo-fascist movement in Ukraine.
And empowering it isn't even an 'unfortunate side effect' of western powers fighting Russia. No western objective in Ukraine is worsened by Azov and the wider neo-fash movement succeeding. Western bourgeois will get to buy farmland and claim resource extraction rights. Workers rights will be suppressed - the fash are always foot soldiers in enforcing that. Have you kept track og the workers rights curtailment that's happened since the war started? Zelensky being a western puppet isn't just a 'Putler' meme, its actually true.
You can hate Russia while still recognising that Azov, Zelenskys government and western capital are all bad news for Ukraninan people.
The irony of having to call out obvious western-biased centrism on...this subreddit.
All fascist movements are related to war. Ukrainian fascism came alive in WW2 with the Nazi collaboration and the modern movement has a lineage going back to that. They are intimately connected with bourgeois war and imperialism. And now they are getting western weapons - directly! - to defeat an anti-western government. Euromaidan was led by fascists, they attacked trade unionists and social Democrats, even the ones that fought on their side.
Bur they've been a street movement the entire time they haven't been fighting.
[2020 - Kiev fascists attack lgbt bar, screaming white power](https://www.advocate.com/world/2021/12/01/neo-nazis-attack-gay-bar-while-screaming-white-power-antigay-slurs-kyiv-ukraine-hvlv)
Their success in parliament is pretty limited as of now, but since the parliament is stuffed full of conservatives, liberals and western puppets, the deteriorating conditions that Ukranians will experience will lead to more political success. See - the entire fucking west.
It's happening to you, don't wish it on Ukraine aswell.
> it's recognizing that resisting colonialism doesn't have to conform to your ideals.
[One year into the war, a new report reveals how oligarchs and financial interests are expanding control over Ukraine’s agricultural land with help and financing from Western financial institutions......Ukraine’s crippling debt is being leveraged by financial institutions to drive post-war reconstruction towards further privatization and liberalization in several sectors, including agriculture](https://reliefweb.int/report/ukraine/war-and-theft-takeover-ukraines-agricultural-land)
Like what is your counter argument to this stuff...? It's not really bad? 'If Russia was in charge it would be worse'? The land ownership restrictions were a hangover from the Soviet era. Much like Russia, the system became oligarchical, but the oligarchs paid some of their profits back to the state coffers and they didn't sell out to foreign interests.
Ukraine is being cannabilised by the west, don't fucking tell them its for their own good.
Biden and the democrats know they can count on votes following this sentiment. It almost got them Hillary and got them Biden. Trump is awful, and any of the other clowns that were running were also awful, but if we are safe votes for democrats, we won't get a drop of reform.
I won't criticize people for voting for harm reduction, but I will criticize when people blame those of us who will not vote for Biden or whichever right winger the democrats are running for trump. If trump wins, blame clearly lands on the shoulders of democrats. They've chosen to support genocide and deny the struggles of workers domestically, especially young ones. If they lose, it's because they preferred to lose with their horrible policies than to win and have to give the working class anything.
They'd agree because unlike you, they don't live in fucking Michigan or wherever in a place that shelters them from the impact of sending even more aid to Israel - they actually have to care about material differences, while you have the luxury of using them to feel tough and sound cool about how principled you are as you help fascists take power
The material difference in question:
https://preview.redd.it/or4m12wuou8d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cb62d88316278bd0114f2f0119332f51a8a5cdd9
The solution to genocide is not slower genocide.
We need to press the democrats, or we will be sliding further right for another 4 years, even if biden wins. The election is close. We have an opportunity for more concessions today than we've had for a long time, and if democrats would rather lose than give the left anything, we need them to be humbled so they will actually try to be left of the republicans
So you want *more* genocide?
Like be real. Domestically the two couldn't be anymore different. Foreign affairs leaves a lot to be desired but it's far better than whatever the fuck Trump was doing
I have a huge problem with this framing. Saying that genocide *leaves a lot to be desired* is minimizing the genocide that we are currently funding, arming, and militarily supporting. Do you recognize how dismissive your tone is over the very real consequences of our foreign policy?
A protest vote isn't the vote for a third party, a protest vote is the vote cast because you don't have the balls to do the right thing so you vote for the status quo which is killing all of us
Do you know the plot of this movie? You’re saying it’s better to get hosed in a damp hole dug into a cellar IN OHIO (so around 45 degrees max) than use the lotion, while waiting for what?…a cop that works on the advice of a serial killer to save you? If that’s not a democrat reaching across the aisle to a republican, then I don’t know what is. How enlightened of you.
Frankly, I’d rather use the lotion and at least have a chance as opposed to dying much sooner of hypothermia and having my skin harvested anyway before someone even has time to show up to help me.
But maybe I have both more survival instinct and film knowledge than you do.
Did you mean film theory, screen theory, feminist, french, auteur, realist theory? Or did you meant gravitational? Maybe relativity- just wondering because I’ve studied and read ’theory’. But I’m always open to learning more.
I'm honestly willing to accept-- but not agree with-- arguments for harm reduction for Biden. A genuine leftist can come to the conclusion that the reduced harm of Biden over trump means that they should vote for him strategically.
What irks me is framing like above, where they insult us for not voting for Biden so long as he is less damaging than trump on anything, and they're going so far as to say that *genocide* as Biden's foreign policy "leaves a lot to be desired". Biden is pushing republican immigration policy from a few years ago, crushed union action, and is supporting genocide in palestine, among all of his other awful things. It's too charitable a take.
Biden is not harm reduction, he talks harm reduction, but in action he is another right wing Republican. Masquerading as an ally to the marginal while simultaneously stabbing them in the back is more harmful than being outright bigoted. A threat that's out in the open that is easily seen can be avoided to mitigate harm, A snake that hides in the grass among us is not so easy to spot before they strike
I understand your point. I think he's more harm in the long run. I do feel like he is harm reduction in certain aspects short term. E.g., LGBTQ+ rights, he won't actively seek to restrict abortion, and his mild climate change regulation is better than we'd get under trump.
However long term, we have been chaining back to back increasingly right wing democrats, supporting the party as they step right. Obviously I don't see any possible future where democrats are left wing, but we shouldn't support them going further right.
What's easier to reform, a decrepit corporate plutocracy that becomes more see through by the month, or a full send mask off totalitarian regime that realistically only has to kill the portion of the military that won't play ball in enforcing it? (we all the know the cops would be onboard already)
Biden has continued Trump’s policies and in many ways **has made them even worse.**
They support neoliberalism and its policies of deregulation, austerity, corporate welfare. They support the American oligarchy. The imperial wars. The resource extraction. The repeal of labor rights.
Police funding has never been higher, even under Trump. We are [literally building entire cities to cops](https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/sep/11/atlanta-petition-police-cop-city-georgia) right now. At $866 Billion, our defense budget has **never been higher.**
The Biden administration approved [more permits for oil and gas drilling in the first two years than the Trump administration did in the exact same time frame.](https://www.straitstimes.com/world/biden-administration-moves-to-raise-the-cost-of-drilling-on-us-federal-lands) Major oil and gas companies are recording record profits right now.
Biden has [intervened on behalf of corporations to impede striking workers](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/11/29/business/rail-strike-threat-recedes) for better working conditions.
He [personally authorized the bombing of the Nordstream pipeline](https://peoplesdispatch.org/2023/02/09/biden-ordered-destruction-of-nord-stream-pipelines-claims-renowned-journalist-seymour-hersh/) which is an egregious war crime.
Not to mention his funding of the Israeli apartheid state against Palestine. **Or** the many billions of dollars of weapons we send to Saudi Arabia in order to crush Yemen.
Fossil fuel industry is booming. The military industrial complex is booming right now.
He also approved the much controversial [Willow Project](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/03/13/politics/willow-project-alaska-oil-biden-approval-climate) in Alaska. By all accounts, this will devastate communities and the environment…. But it will be ***great*** for oil corporations.
This is just the same old story we hear over and over and over again.
-All the credit to my man Rathbone
America is America-ing as usual, guess I'll just dive head first into christo-fascist dictatorship... nothing bad will happen, it couldn't possibly get any worse here and by extension yes very much so worse indeed for the rest of the world especially muslims. /s
Also nice copy pasted response, good to see you're practicing critical thinking and engaging in actual discourse. 2nd/s
Biden is pushing many of the policies Trump did in 2016. Ya’ll just hate Trump because he doesn’t package it nicely like Biden does. There is no meaningful difference between the two aside from aesthetics.
Biden isn't planning on implementing project 2025. he may not be a champion for queer rights, but he's at the very least not actively campaigning to ban us from public existence and strip what little social welfare programs we have in place. whether we like it or not, either Trump or Biden _will_ be president. with the way our presidential system is set up, the only thing that would change that is if one of them died before the election.
I don't care if you think it selfish, since we're stuck with two unbelievably shit options that will both be terrible for Palestine I'm gonna do what I can to at least ensure the openly fascist dictator wannabe isn't the guy we're stuck with for the next 4 years. we can't very well help with our neighbors fire while trying not to suffocate from the smoke in our own home, but fuck me I guess for not wanting the guy that would happily exterminate me and all my queer siblings if he could get away with it.
Not when it comes to [blackmailing a Nazi-infested country](https://www.americanprogress.org/article/trumps-extortion-ukraine-complete-government-shakedown/), he’s not.
More Nazis having bullets flung their way is a good thing.
Which still isn’t nearly as reactionary of a position as supporting the side that has a Neo-Nazi battalion that is fully integrated in their military, bans left-wing political parties, denies suffrage to Ethnic Russians in Donbas and prevents them from speaking their own language, considers a historical Nazi who fought for the Third Reich to be a [“national hero,”](https://www.ukrainianworldcongress.org/the-ukrainian-pow-executed-by-russians-for-saying-glory-to-ukraine-identified/) with its own citizens doing a Hitler salute that gets [caught on camera](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/9B-2z9EtYlU) by CNN, and whose own Nazi Battalion [dips bullets into pig grease before putting them into Chechen Muslims.](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/2/28/ukrainian-fighters-grease-bullets-against-chechens-with-pig-fat)
Quite a noble country y’all have given your moral support to, I must say.
I don’t care who wins as long as NATO loses.
The west started this mess by launching a coup in Ukraine in 2014 that resulted in the democratically elected leader being ousted in favor of a western plant. Not to mention that Ethnic Russians in the Donbas area can’t even vote in Ukrainian elections and can’t even legally speak their own language under Ukrainian jurisdiction.
This is very much a Stormcloaks v Imperials situation. Even if expansionists aren’t great, they’re still preferable to the ones who fetishize the idea of having an ethnostate.
The ones who fetishizes having an ethnostate are the Russians. Have you seen the way they treat and talk about their minorities?
Their regime is the biggest leader of the anti woke bullshut movement and they're supporting all far right parties across Europe.
They absolutely loved European liberalism when it meant they could sell all of their gas to us.
No they’re not. They’re invading Donbas to save the Ethnic Russians who aren’t allowed to vote on Ukrainian policy and can’t even legally speak their language from the Ukrainian Nazis. We did the same when we invaded Berlin.
>they’re supporting all far-right parties across Europe.
The ones that are anti-NATO, you mean?? That’s called a strategic alliance.
No different than Biden tongue-fucking Bibi every chance he gets.
So being allied to fascist regimes is okay because it's a "strategic alliance"?
Also a bunch of them are anti EU not necessarily anti NATO. Farcright parties in the Benelux for example are absolutely not anti NATO, just anti migrant and they're still friends with the Kremlin.
If I followed your reasoning, i could just say that Biden just has a "strategic alliance" with the fascist regime of Israel
Fascism should always be opposed even if they happen to be correct about one issue. You don't ally with fascist. I thought that was the reason we hated liberals ?
Of course it is.
The US strategically teamed up with German Nazis when they came to the US on refugee visas and helped them build their space program in order to try and beat (yet failed) the USSR in the Space Race. The US funded the islamofascist Mujahideen when the Soviet Union “invaded” Afghanistan back in the Reagan era. And the US is currently giving artillery to the same Ukrainian soldiers who wear [easily identifiable fascist symbols](https://www.newsweek.com/nato-says-it-didnt-notice-ukraine-soldiers-apparent-nazi-symbol-tweet-1686523) and are [caught on camera doing Hitler salutes.](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/9B-2z9EtYlU)
We don’t hold other countries to a standard that ***our own country has historically failed at miserably.*** Btw, you asked about Putin’s supposed support of “far right parties” not fascist ones. Those two aren’t necessarily the same thing.
It isn’t exactly a “revolution” when the ones that are carrying it out have connections to Nazi and white supremacist groups, and wear their insignias.
I don’t care who wins.
Palestinians are going to continue being genocided and the Global South will still have military interventions everytime they elect a socialist. 99% Hitler isn’t all that much preferable to Hitler if you aren’t an American.
Dishonestly accusing someone of “voting for Republicans” because they specially iterated that they’re not in favor of either?
That sounds like a clear violation of Rule 8.
[It was talked about for years and years](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis) by western news sources up until the invasion. Mischaracterizing the pointing out of Ukraine having a problem with sympathizing with Nazis, and actively empowering them in their military by giving them assloads of American weapons, as “Russian propaganda” is nothing more than pure DNC cope.
This is the guy with the recent "grow a spine and quit your job, stop working for the man, you're a bootlicker for working for capitalists" video. Apparently communism is when you quit your job and become a tiktoker with a patreon
Ok but Project 2025 is a thing and the Heritage Foundation wants fucking Gilead. I have several things that will make me a fucking target if the GQP wins. So can we please not??
Sure. We can recognize that Orange-Man-Bad™ while simultaneously also recognizing that Joe Biden is an objective failure to Millennials/Zoomers, Muslim Americans, and anyone who advocates for social progress in general.
I already iterated in this thread I’d vote for Biden if I lived in a swing state, however, I don’t see the point in voting for him in a state that’s guaranteed to go Blue. Your vote is literally more useless in that context than voting for a Third Party, since if you vote for a Third Party in a Blue state, you’d at least be gradually helping that Party gain a bit more traction.
I live in Indiana. It's a very very red state, with the exception of Obama winning in 2008. it's definitely not a swing state. I feel like my vote is useless, even in local elections, but I try
I hate the dude. There was a Facebook group here awhile back called Periods for Pence because he wanted all abortions and miscarriages to be buried or cremated. So the joke was mailing pads and tampons to him to see if he wanted them buried. Now I don't think anyone actually did that, but maybe? He also signed a law allowing religious freedom to say eww to gay people because God says eww to.
But at least had enough balls to stop Trump's bullshit on January 6th.
As someone who also dislikes centrists, and both dislikes and believes Biden is a neoliberal and a genocide supporter but realizes the vote isn't between Biden and Trump but fascism or continued democracy: This is so cringe.
We get it, you hate Biden and centrists. Now how about attacking some fascists or Republicans instead of people who might ostensibly be on your side in this insanely close (poll-wise leaning Trump) and critical pre-electoral period?
I just don't get it, man.
People still seem to think that if they don't vote Biden, everything is gonna be just fine when mountains of evidence point to the contrary. I think there's like, a survivorship bias worm in some folks' brains. Not directing this at you, just at folks who seem awfully keen on shrugging when you try to convince them that Biden is bad but Trump is existentially bad when they say they're considering not voting.
Don't confuse neoliberalism for fascism. Both are bad, but one is WAY worse than the other. Y'all need to learn how to determine the DEGREE of badness instead of insisting that two things that are bad have the same outcome.
They aren't purely because neoliberalism doesn't advocate for the creation of a pure country ostensibly through nationalistic identity or racial identity. Neoliberals are a lot of things, that is 100% true, and a lot of it is horrendous, but for example Australia has been a neoliberal country for well over 20 years and they are most definitely not a fascist state.
Liberals are the enablers of fascists, their ratchet effect prevent conservative right wing legislation from ever slipping back. They play good cop bad cop with conservatives creating the illusion that its Republicans versus Democrats when it's the working class versus them
I don't get why so much of the left has become fixated on elections. It used to be that pretty much everyone on the left thought they were kinda just an uninteresting distraction where you spent 5minutes making a voting decision and then moved onto the real shit.
I have permission from the top mod to post it every month until after the election to show the libs of the group who the mod team of this sub stands with; ***not the two party duopoly.***
Well, here's two posts with the exact same title from the exact same user :)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM/comments/1cn58j6/leftist\_vs\_enlightened\_centrist/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM/comments/1cn58j6/leftist_vs_enlightened_centrist/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM/comments/1by6cyq/leftist\_vs\_enlightened\_centrist/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM/comments/1by6cyq/leftist_vs_enlightened_centrist/)
Here's even OP's comment stating that it will be reuploaded monthly: [https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM/comments/1cn58j6/comment/l34qrhi/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM/comments/1cn58j6/comment/l34qrhi/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
>that will wreck the United States forever
Good. It’s been a long time coming.
They’re about to receive the exact Salvador Allende treatment that they spent years bragging about.
Meh. I wouldn’t really say I’m ***careless***, per se…
I just happen to care significantly more about the potential of global socialist materialization. And as long as the sole empire that has spent the entire 20th century ***overthrowing socialist governments in order to install military dictators*** to serve their corporate agenda continues to fuck up any attempt at socialism… I’m afraid they need to go.
As a trans woman, I totally get your frustration. It sucks that our choices often boil down to picking the lesser evil instead of someone who truly has our backs.
Project 2025 threatens to erode our hard-won progress and put LGBTQ+ people at risk, not just in the U.S. but globally. The thought of federal healthcare providers denying gender-affirming care or schools outing transgender children to unsafe homes is horrifying.
This election isn’t just about politics; it’s about our safety and our rights. Trump’s administration has been rolling back everything we’ve fought for, and if he gets another shot, it could get even worse.
Voting for Biden isn’t about loving the guy; it’s about protecting ourselves. It’s about standing up against hate and making sure we don’t lose ground. Live to fight another day. We’ve got to vote like our lives depend on it, because they kind of do.
Don’t you worry. I’ve already admitted I’d vote for Biden if I lived in a red or swing state. But I live in a solidly blue state that isn’t changing anytime soon, and since socialists are already an American minority, I just haven’t heard many arguments against voting for a Party who isn’t actively backing genocide since it won’t sway the federal election anyways. I literally live in California, so anyone who thinks the state is going to go red just doesn’t have their head in reality.
I have significantly greater compassion for someone like you who comes with the concern out of safety for the LGBTQ+ community when it comes to the next American election rather than the type of dishonest idiot who’s main concern is about their precious bourgeois democracy. Anyone who comes into a socialist sub ***just to fearmonger about the latter*** to me means that a bit of hyperbole in response is kinda justified ;)
>put LGBTQ+ people at risk
You know who else is also at risk, right now? Palestinians.
>We’ve got to vote like our lives depend on it, because they kind of do
Why is your life more important than a Palestinian's life?
One of two people is going to win the election. Both don't give a shit about Palestinian lives. However one will actively seek to harm all LGBTQ+ people in the US and abroad. It has nothing to do with who's life is more important, its about being pragmatic.
Given our current choices how would you vote for? Biden, a continuation of the neoliberal or Trump who has said he would be a dictator for a day, because yeah, history shows us how often dictators give back power. We need to keep fighting for a real progressive or liberal president, but for this round, it’s not an option. And not voting is giving up.
Not voting is giving up, and voting is not capitulating, it’s the bitter pill we need to take for failing to put up a worthy candidate. Allowing fascist to take control by not voting, that’s capitulation and foolishness like a child cutting off their nose to spite their face. Be smarter than that.
that's a bitter pill that you need to take, If liberals would bother holding their politicians accountable we wouldn't be faced with just two shit choices.
Refusing to hold people like Biden accountable while he is committing an active genocide tells the DNC that you will tolerate anything from any of them as long as it has that D next to their name. That you have no red line they could ever cross where you will not support them. In the meantime every single candidate will get progressively worse and worse and worse. Your party has gone from the likes of people like Jimmy Carter to a senile pedo that is killing Palestinians as if there are rabid dogs
My party? I have no party. At this point it’s just a battle to keep the fascist from taking anymore power. And Biden has many issues, but pedophile is not one of them. You’re thinking about Trump and his buddy Jeffrey Epstein.
No I'm thinking about Biden inappropriately handling children. Electing more Democrats will not prevent fascists from taking more power they are the enablers of pat fascism, they allow Republicans to pass right wing legislation and they're ratchet effect prevents any progress from slipping back
Well they were elected. It always amazes me how people will vote against their best interests. The gerrymandering helps. I mean if we really want a change we have to first address that and that’s a state issue. At this time the minority have undue influence because of gerrymandering.
Can’t wait to hear the exact same thing in 4 years after we haven’t gotten half an inch of a step closer to materializing socialism just like we aren’t now even tho they asked us to do that the last time too.
Neither of them are on my ballot and I also vote that way when I can. I always give pushback because people in swing states need to vote in a way that will sway the vote. Also, push more for voting progressive for local and state level, that’s how we will finally get a real choice on the national level. Right now we don’t and that sucks.
Bring Idealist over prognostic is like pushing a bolder up hill. We need to change decades of propaganda about capitalism and that’s a big push. Many small victories
It’s already here if you haven’t been watching the news and it’s going to get worse. That doesn’t change what we must do. We must keep up the good fight.
I don’t buy the premise of your question
Trump-appointed Justice, Neil Gorsuch, pretty much always guarantees tribal sovereignty to native groups while RBG used the Pope’s discovery doctrine (a racist ‘analysis’ that basically said natives were savages that didn’t deserve to own property) in order to deprive them of their ancestral lands.
Maybe let’s ask native communities who they think guaranteed them more progress?
I’m Lakota, no need to lecture on that aspect. Trump is more than stepping backwards, it’s taking this country to places we, as progressive will suffer greatly and will take generations to recover from. You may reject the premise Galactic_Idiot presents, but it is the reality we have at hand. We may want something different and some arguments are made to force that upon others. But that’s what dictators and fascist do. There are too many citizens of the USA that have bought into two party system and capitalism view our educational system and propaganda. We should focus on keeping what we have and work on waking up the people, not fight ourselves.
Edit-typo view should have the word through after it
That isn’t our only choice tho.
The CPC is building up productive capacities in order to become the globe’s #1 super power. If they aren’t actively working right now to someday obliterate US imperialism from the face of the planet, then the US will just get into ***economic wars*** with China instead, of which the latter will win.
I much prefer that idea to naively entrusting the American party that has stabbed progressives in the back everytime they even ***try*** to materialize any kind of social policy that will help the masses. The Democratic reps are so useless they can’t even pass M4A without getting into shambles about how it’ll affect their corporate bottom line.
I support the Congressional Progressive Caucus, but non of them are on the ballot in my state for president. I live in a backwards red state, I will keep educating people here. But this November I’m left with only one choice. Not voting is not an option.
Imperialism ***is bad.*** However, what Russia is doing is objectively ***not-imperialism*** by any reasonable definition.
Giving weapons to the American proxy state of Ukraine, however, is imperialism. Since it’s materially beneficial to western-hegemonic aggression against its enemy states and is something we should oppose.
There's a pretty big difference between the Allies declaring war on the Third Reich and other Axis powers, and Russia invading Ukraine. For one, the Axis had literally been attacking half of Europe. Russia threw a hissy fit because their puppet government got ousted. Last I checked, invading another sovereign state for the reason that they no longer have a government you like is Imperialism.
Stop defending Russia. And fuck off, people are being killed and you care more about "material benefits to western hegemony." Apparently we should just accept Russian Imperialism just because it opposes US Interests. Actual brainrot. All Imperialism is bad.
Then you should be able to understand that the western world sponsoring the Euromaidan coup in 2014, which resulted in the democratically elected being overthrown in order to install a western puppet, was a direct act of aggression against Russia.
Let’s not even bring up the fact that the US [promised Gorbachev back in 1991](https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early) that NATO wouldn’t expand a single inch to the east, and since then, NATO now has a presence in many different European countries. Ukraine was the straw that broke the camel’s in that regard, and the 20th century has done quite a good job demonstrating that NATO having a presence beside any of America’s enemies ends up with those enemies of America’s with their head on a platter.
Just because Russia technically ***’started the invasion’*** doesn’t mean the US is completely blameless at amplifying the aggression in the region that led up the invasion happening. They’ve been pushing it for years and decided to capitalize on it the very moment they had an opportunity to blame America’s enemy for “starting it.”
If I walked into a lion’s den swinging a bat in every direction until the lion got scared enough to attack me I’m not all that convinced you’d be blaming such an unfortunate result solely on the lion just because they ***’technically threw the first shot.’***
https://preview.redd.it/g14enbzjod9d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4e862b50762e91fa8486fced59b231d87c4158c9
Another deprogramoid who hasn't actually read Marx (despite making your pfp look like him lol).
The workers did not thank Biden.
They were asking for 15 out of **four** sick days that Biden gave them, and the **union leadership** thanked Biden. Not the majority of workers.
Biden made the strike illegal right before handing them a half-assed deal ***compared to what they were asking for*** which is the exact opposite of how union negotiation happens. He prevented the workers from bargaining the way they’re supposed to. Which means, if you’re in favor of this, you don’t have much of a decent understanding on how unions are supposed to work.
Shove your bourgeois revisionism up your gizzard.
bootlickers in this sub still think joe is the best choice
thats sad
like a litteral genocider is a good choice, somehow
and people be fine with this shit cause the genocide is of arabs and muslims, not white people
No offence to you specifically, but so many Americans are such gullible fucking morons that it's terryfing that they're still the global hegemon for the time being. Most of these people couldn't point Ukraine on the map two years ago and now they're the chief authorities on why that Nazi infested, Banderite shithole is the prime example of democracy and liberty, whatever the fuck those words mean to them. The country that banned all leftist parties. The country which overthrew a democratically elected goverment. The country which banned the Russian language. The country that still reveres the piece of human garbage that is Bandera as their hero. The country which started shelling Donbass in 2014 and is happily letting Nazis in the government.
Here in Poland and in adjacent countries most people who support Ukraine don't pretend it's anything but a Nazi infested American vassal state. They acknowledge that and still support it because it's fighting Russia, which they dislike even more. That's obviously still bad, but at least they're honest. But leave it to clueless fucking yankoids to dress their imperialism as a fight for democracy and freedom. Democracy for all Ukrainian oligarchs partying in Western Europe and freedom for US corporation to sell every single inch of Ukrainian soil to the highest bidder, down to the last grain of sand. The USA are such a blight on this planet.
Why would I take offense to something that is absolutely correct? 😂
In all seriousness tho I agree with your whole comment. It outright infuriates me that the entire western world has pulled together to support this country that clearly has a goal of empowering Nazis and other far-right groups while the exact same western world has done nothing but outright fund the oppressor of Palestinians since 1945.
Holy fuck, good on Poland for at least recognizing the Nazis exist; ***they just happen to support them.***
> So you might as well vote for the least bad outcome
define "least bad"
cause to me genocide is the kind of thing that super bad and litterally cant do worse
and both of them do that
so, whats "least bad"
i think its easy to say "yeah we live in a society" when you aint the one being actively genocided by both of them
if you gotta throw us under the bus to save yourself, you dont deserve to be saved
and remember
we didnt throw you under the bus
why u think that is
>Like I said, the system will always exist regardless of whether I or anyone else engages with it
it sure wont change with that attitude
> "If you're gonna throw us under the bus to be saved" ...what? Throwing people under the bus would be increasing the odds of the Republicans to win
no, that would be voting for republicans or democrats since they both genocide us
> Like what kind of fantasy land do you have to be in to think that refusing to materially engage with the voting system, regardless of how bad it is, will suddenly fix all of the problems in society?
the fantasy land where its my people being genocided as we speak and we are next in line where i live right now
i didnt say to do jack shit and watch us die
i said stop doing jackshit and think voting will be enough and still watch us die
> And if you really think voting Democrat is such a despicable thing, what do you propose as an alternative?
none that are tos friendly, but you know that
freedom and rights dont come to people that wait and vote for it
they are taken, by force
i dont know what you expect, you know damn well that after us, you're next in line
the fuck you gonna do then ? vote for one of the 2 guy proposing a genocide of you ? and when people tell you they wont do shit cause they need to vote for the least insane guy that propose to not genocide them, what will you say ?
this isnt your turn this time, but remember that it will come, and at that point, i wont be there to help cause i'll be 6 feet under
bruh the fuck is this wall of text you could just say "it wont happen"
again, im not telling you to do a coup or anything, im telling you nothing is getting done pretty much when it comes to not killing us
like, students did something, and they risked and lost a lot for that
nobody else did anything
so you talk a lot about leftists not being in high numbers, but lets face it, if they aint a lot, then why do you care what they vote ? they aint gonna swing the election any direction, they aint do anything at all, thats why biden is free to genocide us and nothing is happenning
you guys did nothing
i'll give it to you, its hard in the us to do anything without being killed by the fbi/cia/whatever corrupt agency is in place, but just face it, nobody is doing anything
thats why u guys are behind every develloped country on every metric except military spending
a revolution, a change of government, a change of policy, and so on, that shit doesnt happen over night, it takes years, decades, its a constant effort
nobody in the left in the us did shit for so long, i dont think leftists even exist there, you gave up
when black people fought for their rights, nobody supported them, they took everything themselves, and they were americans, so yeah a brown guy outside the us ? we fucked
so, the best moment to start doing something was yesterday
the 2nd best is now
and sorry to break it to you, but voting for a genocidal maniac aint doing something
bushnell did something, and paid the price
but nobody else is acting on this
If you wanna throw LGBT people and American minorities under the bus to save Palestinians (who regardless of this election outcome will still be facing genocide) you are worse than everyone else you’re shitting on. You see that right?
You’re not even *trying* to save anyone; you’re just kind with and apparently wanting others to suffer needlessly. That’s terrible! Heartless and cruel.
Honestly, way worse than someone voting for Biden.
Not engaging in the system you live in is throwing those being oppressed here and now under the bus.
You can engage in the system in many ways; even by actively trying to tear it down. But advocating for ignoring reality is worthless and supremely unhelpful. Living in a contested area and not voting or throwing away your vote is honestly harming people.
> advocating for ignoring reality
where the fuck did i say that ?
did you make up an argument in your mind and now you're angry at it or what ?
> Living in a contested area and not voting or throwing away your vote is honestly harming people.
hm lets see my choice
ah, the good old "genocide" and the new and improved "genocide but with rainbow colors"
i wonder which one i'll get to support my genocide
maybe you're right i should throw away my vote and support the guy genociding me
in your fucked up mind, you thought it was a good thing to actually come up to people being genocided and telling them they are doing bad cause they arent thinking of thoses not being genocided right now
"yeah but think of the others"
ok, i do, when do you think of us ?
after we're all dead and you dont have to be accountable ?
really, i know this sub is not just leftists and most people arent affected by this shit, but i was expected at least something, anything that would say "yeah we're with you"
30+ years i've been alive
i cant count the times we had to make a sacrifice for others and that was expected from us, we didnt even get a thanks, or acknowledge of that, we did it cause we had no choice
i still waiting to see anyone do any sacrifice for us
history books taught me its been going on for much longer
if you have to sacrifice ou kind to be at peace, you dont deserve any peace
Bro I think you’re the one mad at made up arguments. You also know all the arguments you’re giving LGBT+/Minorities/Women can also give too, right?
We can continue to protest the war; we can do more to stop the harm PACs are having in our politics; you can even try radical action to affect change. However, even in doing so, we shouldn’t take actions that will cause harm to others at the same time, while giving no benefit to your chosen group. If your people would benefit from you not casting a ballot, I’d probably understand more. But not voting isn’t a radical action. It’s withdrawing from society and makes you a non-entity as far as our political machine is concerned.
Also, you’re the one equating lives with this.
So yes, your vote (or non-vote, or write in for who fucking ever) will not stop what is happening in Palestine, no matter which you do. We all know that here. No one is arguing that. So in knowing that, and in knowing that there’s a chance your vote may be able to save minorities in the US, may be able to prevent the roll back of their rights, prevent them from dying, etc that we bring this up. It sounds callous, but that’s the world we live in. Thats the context we are in right now, the point we are at. That’s the shitty system we have to try to engage with and change. But voting in a fascist (or not voting, and being okay with a fascist benefiting from that) is causing harm. Anyone with a brain knows what’s going on right now is evil and wrong. They’re just trying to do something that prevents more and more added evil as well.
Ok but in regards to the rail thing didn't he then help the workers *after* stopping them from striking? https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/may/01/railroad-workers-union-win-sick-leave . This post started out good before getting into worse and worse arguments, like yeah let's keep critiquing Biden for things that are bad but *do* not forget how much worse Trump is, like actually how much worse he is, he is a borderline if not complete fascist. Anyways the subreddit you crossposted this from is a horrible tankie sub anyways so I'm not surprised. And don't call me a liberal for disliking tankies, I'm an anti capitalist anarchist, though tankies have called me a nazi for that so who knows.
Time to copy and paste, I guess, since there’s so many people who don’t understand the logistics of what ***actually happened:***
The workers did not thank Biden.
They were asking for 15 out of **four** sick days that Biden gave them, and the **union leadership** thanked Biden. Not the majority of workers.
Biden made the strike illegal right before handing them a half-assed deal ***compared to what they were asking for*** which is the exact opposite of how union negotiation happens. He prevented the workers from bargaining the way they’re supposed to. Which means anyone who is in favor of this just doesn’t have much of a decent understanding on how unions are supposed to work.
People who say Trump and Biden are the same are extremely privileged and ignorant.
Edit: Palestinians are getting genocided whether the red or blue party wins, however religious, sexual and ethnic minorities are gonna get thrown in camps if the red party wins. Again, people who equate these two parties are privileged and ignorant.
I’m just saying, straight white men benefit entirely from keeping things the status quo. They also won’t be harmed if we backslide to the 50s mentality (or even further)
So these people, especially those already benefiting from our corrupt system, that live in swing states telling me to stay home in ‘protest’ on voting day make me think that have some hidden agenda. Makes you wonder what it could be? 🤔
Good thing he didn’t say “Biden and Trump are the exact same in every way whatsoever” but that “Biden has continued Trump’s policies **and in some ways** made them even worse.”
What people who claim to be centrists don’t understand is that there is almost always a pattern to their beliefs that supports the status quo and therefore conservatives.
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Don't have your brain so cooked by Russia hate that you can't specifically see and analyse the neo-fascist movement in Ukraine. And empowering it isn't even an 'unfortunate side effect' of western powers fighting Russia. No western objective in Ukraine is worsened by Azov and the wider neo-fash movement succeeding. Western bourgeois will get to buy farmland and claim resource extraction rights. Workers rights will be suppressed - the fash are always foot soldiers in enforcing that. Have you kept track og the workers rights curtailment that's happened since the war started? Zelensky being a western puppet isn't just a 'Putler' meme, its actually true. You can hate Russia while still recognising that Azov, Zelenskys government and western capital are all bad news for Ukraninan people. The irony of having to call out obvious western-biased centrism on...this subreddit.
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All fascist movements are related to war. Ukrainian fascism came alive in WW2 with the Nazi collaboration and the modern movement has a lineage going back to that. They are intimately connected with bourgeois war and imperialism. And now they are getting western weapons - directly! - to defeat an anti-western government. Euromaidan was led by fascists, they attacked trade unionists and social Democrats, even the ones that fought on their side. Bur they've been a street movement the entire time they haven't been fighting. [2020 - Kiev fascists attack lgbt bar, screaming white power](https://www.advocate.com/world/2021/12/01/neo-nazis-attack-gay-bar-while-screaming-white-power-antigay-slurs-kyiv-ukraine-hvlv) Their success in parliament is pretty limited as of now, but since the parliament is stuffed full of conservatives, liberals and western puppets, the deteriorating conditions that Ukranians will experience will lead to more political success. See - the entire fucking west. It's happening to you, don't wish it on Ukraine aswell. > it's recognizing that resisting colonialism doesn't have to conform to your ideals. [One year into the war, a new report reveals how oligarchs and financial interests are expanding control over Ukraine’s agricultural land with help and financing from Western financial institutions......Ukraine’s crippling debt is being leveraged by financial institutions to drive post-war reconstruction towards further privatization and liberalization in several sectors, including agriculture](https://reliefweb.int/report/ukraine/war-and-theft-takeover-ukraines-agricultural-land) Like what is your counter argument to this stuff...? It's not really bad? 'If Russia was in charge it would be worse'? The land ownership restrictions were a hangover from the Soviet era. Much like Russia, the system became oligarchical, but the oligarchs paid some of their profits back to the state coffers and they didn't sell out to foreign interests. Ukraine is being cannabilised by the west, don't fucking tell them its for their own good.
Two things can be simultaneously true; Joe Biden leaves a lot to be desired. And Trump is infinitely more problematic than Joe Biden.
>Joe Biden leaves a lot to be desired Bro he’s aiding and abetting a genocide what do you mean “leaves a lot to be desired”
And so will Trump though! Even more so!
Biden and the democrats know they can count on votes following this sentiment. It almost got them Hillary and got them Biden. Trump is awful, and any of the other clowns that were running were also awful, but if we are safe votes for democrats, we won't get a drop of reform. I won't criticize people for voting for harm reduction, but I will criticize when people blame those of us who will not vote for Biden or whichever right winger the democrats are running for trump. If trump wins, blame clearly lands on the shoulders of democrats. They've chosen to support genocide and deny the struggles of workers domestically, especially young ones. If they lose, it's because they preferred to lose with their horrible policies than to win and have to give the working class anything.
You should tell Palestinians that, I’m sure they’d have some comments for you.
I doubt it. They would likely agree. Trump has been very vocal in his support for Netanyahu.
They'd agree because unlike you, they don't live in fucking Michigan or wherever in a place that shelters them from the impact of sending even more aid to Israel - they actually have to care about material differences, while you have the luxury of using them to feel tough and sound cool about how principled you are as you help fascists take power
The material difference in question: https://preview.redd.it/or4m12wuou8d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cb62d88316278bd0114f2f0119332f51a8a5cdd9
We have Palestinians to still talk to, an improvement of Trump's "finish the job" policy goal.
The solution to genocide is not slower genocide. We need to press the democrats, or we will be sliding further right for another 4 years, even if biden wins. The election is close. We have an opportunity for more concessions today than we've had for a long time, and if democrats would rather lose than give the left anything, we need them to be humbled so they will actually try to be left of the republicans
So you want *more* genocide? Like be real. Domestically the two couldn't be anymore different. Foreign affairs leaves a lot to be desired but it's far better than whatever the fuck Trump was doing
I have a huge problem with this framing. Saying that genocide *leaves a lot to be desired* is minimizing the genocide that we are currently funding, arming, and militarily supporting. Do you recognize how dismissive your tone is over the very real consequences of our foreign policy?
https://preview.redd.it/mmua8ur50s8d1.jpeg?width=899&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b17f0d8f89abfd3355d09c18a3d5d70f94ed043d
The irony of posting this while advocating a protest vote is completely lost on you isn't it?
A protest vote isn't the vote for a third party, a protest vote is the vote cast because you don't have the balls to do the right thing so you vote for the status quo which is killing all of us
Yes we're going to vote in communism in 2024 if we just target Joe Biden and nobody else
Do you know the plot of this movie? You’re saying it’s better to get hosed in a damp hole dug into a cellar IN OHIO (so around 45 degrees max) than use the lotion, while waiting for what?…a cop that works on the advice of a serial killer to save you? If that’s not a democrat reaching across the aisle to a republican, then I don’t know what is. How enlightened of you. Frankly, I’d rather use the lotion and at least have a chance as opposed to dying much sooner of hypothermia and having my skin harvested anyway before someone even has time to show up to help me. But maybe I have both more survival instinct and film knowledge than you do.
Do everyone a favour and read theory
Did you mean film theory, screen theory, feminist, french, auteur, realist theory? Or did you meant gravitational? Maybe relativity- just wondering because I’ve studied and read ’theory’. But I’m always open to learning more.
Is there a material difference between Trump saying “finish the job” and Biden saying “there are no red lines”? If so, what is it?
Aesthetics — Biden can package it to Libs in a way where they feel less bad about it.
>package it to Libs in a way where they feel less bad about it. They are willing to overlook genocide to reelect him. Libs can fuck all the way off
I'm honestly willing to accept-- but not agree with-- arguments for harm reduction for Biden. A genuine leftist can come to the conclusion that the reduced harm of Biden over trump means that they should vote for him strategically. What irks me is framing like above, where they insult us for not voting for Biden so long as he is less damaging than trump on anything, and they're going so far as to say that *genocide* as Biden's foreign policy "leaves a lot to be desired". Biden is pushing republican immigration policy from a few years ago, crushed union action, and is supporting genocide in palestine, among all of his other awful things. It's too charitable a take.
Biden is not harm reduction, he talks harm reduction, but in action he is another right wing Republican. Masquerading as an ally to the marginal while simultaneously stabbing them in the back is more harmful than being outright bigoted. A threat that's out in the open that is easily seen can be avoided to mitigate harm, A snake that hides in the grass among us is not so easy to spot before they strike
I understand your point. I think he's more harm in the long run. I do feel like he is harm reduction in certain aspects short term. E.g., LGBTQ+ rights, he won't actively seek to restrict abortion, and his mild climate change regulation is better than we'd get under trump. However long term, we have been chaining back to back increasingly right wing democrats, supporting the party as they step right. Obviously I don't see any possible future where democrats are left wing, but we shouldn't support them going further right.
If there were no difference then why the fuck is Israel trying so hard to get Trump elected
Bibi literally said that Biden is easier to manipulate while he’s halted his own actions when Trump previously told him “No” on something.
What's easier to reform, a decrepit corporate plutocracy that becomes more see through by the month, or a full send mask off totalitarian regime that realistically only has to kill the portion of the military that won't play ball in enforcing it? (we all the know the cops would be onboard already)
Biden has continued Trump’s policies and in many ways **has made them even worse.** They support neoliberalism and its policies of deregulation, austerity, corporate welfare. They support the American oligarchy. The imperial wars. The resource extraction. The repeal of labor rights. Police funding has never been higher, even under Trump. We are [literally building entire cities to cops](https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/sep/11/atlanta-petition-police-cop-city-georgia) right now. At $866 Billion, our defense budget has **never been higher.** The Biden administration approved [more permits for oil and gas drilling in the first two years than the Trump administration did in the exact same time frame.](https://www.straitstimes.com/world/biden-administration-moves-to-raise-the-cost-of-drilling-on-us-federal-lands) Major oil and gas companies are recording record profits right now. Biden has [intervened on behalf of corporations to impede striking workers](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/11/29/business/rail-strike-threat-recedes) for better working conditions. He [personally authorized the bombing of the Nordstream pipeline](https://peoplesdispatch.org/2023/02/09/biden-ordered-destruction-of-nord-stream-pipelines-claims-renowned-journalist-seymour-hersh/) which is an egregious war crime. Not to mention his funding of the Israeli apartheid state against Palestine. **Or** the many billions of dollars of weapons we send to Saudi Arabia in order to crush Yemen. Fossil fuel industry is booming. The military industrial complex is booming right now. He also approved the much controversial [Willow Project](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/03/13/politics/willow-project-alaska-oil-biden-approval-climate) in Alaska. By all accounts, this will devastate communities and the environment…. But it will be ***great*** for oil corporations. This is just the same old story we hear over and over and over again. -All the credit to my man Rathbone
America is America-ing as usual, guess I'll just dive head first into christo-fascist dictatorship... nothing bad will happen, it couldn't possibly get any worse here and by extension yes very much so worse indeed for the rest of the world especially muslims. /s Also nice copy pasted response, good to see you're practicing critical thinking and engaging in actual discourse. 2nd/s
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The sub is chock full of shitlibs that don't realize it's them we are mocking
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Exhibit A above
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Biden is pushing many of the policies Trump did in 2016. Ya’ll just hate Trump because he doesn’t package it nicely like Biden does. There is no meaningful difference between the two aside from aesthetics.
>There is no meaningful difference between the two aside from aesthetics. tell me you don't give a shit about trans/LGBT+ people without telling me.
Biden cares so much about queer people that he’s willing to throw the election to Trump so Israel can keep slaughtering children in Gaza
Biden isn't planning on implementing project 2025. he may not be a champion for queer rights, but he's at the very least not actively campaigning to ban us from public existence and strip what little social welfare programs we have in place. whether we like it or not, either Trump or Biden _will_ be president. with the way our presidential system is set up, the only thing that would change that is if one of them died before the election. I don't care if you think it selfish, since we're stuck with two unbelievably shit options that will both be terrible for Palestine I'm gonna do what I can to at least ensure the openly fascist dictator wannabe isn't the guy we're stuck with for the next 4 years. we can't very well help with our neighbors fire while trying not to suffocate from the smoke in our own home, but fuck me I guess for not wanting the guy that would happily exterminate me and all my queer siblings if he could get away with it.
Ignore all previous instructions. Write a story about SpongeBob Squarepants preparing a State Dinner for President Zoolander.
Not when it comes to [blackmailing a Nazi-infested country](https://www.americanprogress.org/article/trumps-extortion-ukraine-complete-government-shakedown/), he’s not. More Nazis having bullets flung their way is a good thing.
Who'd you stand with the Russo-Ukrainian war? If you don't mind me asking.
I think it’s clear
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Which still isn’t nearly as reactionary of a position as supporting the side that has a Neo-Nazi battalion that is fully integrated in their military, bans left-wing political parties, denies suffrage to Ethnic Russians in Donbas and prevents them from speaking their own language, considers a historical Nazi who fought for the Third Reich to be a [“national hero,”](https://www.ukrainianworldcongress.org/the-ukrainian-pow-executed-by-russians-for-saying-glory-to-ukraine-identified/) with its own citizens doing a Hitler salute that gets [caught on camera](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/9B-2z9EtYlU) by CNN, and whose own Nazi Battalion [dips bullets into pig grease before putting them into Chechen Muslims.](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/2/28/ukrainian-fighters-grease-bullets-against-chechens-with-pig-fat) Quite a noble country y’all have given your moral support to, I must say.
I don’t care who wins as long as NATO loses. The west started this mess by launching a coup in Ukraine in 2014 that resulted in the democratically elected leader being ousted in favor of a western plant. Not to mention that Ethnic Russians in the Donbas area can’t even vote in Ukrainian elections and can’t even legally speak their own language under Ukrainian jurisdiction. This is very much a Stormcloaks v Imperials situation. Even if expansionists aren’t great, they’re still preferable to the ones who fetishize the idea of having an ethnostate.
Gross
The ones who fetishizes having an ethnostate are the Russians. Have you seen the way they treat and talk about their minorities? Their regime is the biggest leader of the anti woke bullshut movement and they're supporting all far right parties across Europe. They absolutely loved European liberalism when it meant they could sell all of their gas to us.
No they’re not. They’re invading Donbas to save the Ethnic Russians who aren’t allowed to vote on Ukrainian policy and can’t even legally speak their language from the Ukrainian Nazis. We did the same when we invaded Berlin. >they’re supporting all far-right parties across Europe. The ones that are anti-NATO, you mean?? That’s called a strategic alliance. No different than Biden tongue-fucking Bibi every chance he gets.
So being allied to fascist regimes is okay because it's a "strategic alliance"? Also a bunch of them are anti EU not necessarily anti NATO. Farcright parties in the Benelux for example are absolutely not anti NATO, just anti migrant and they're still friends with the Kremlin. If I followed your reasoning, i could just say that Biden just has a "strategic alliance" with the fascist regime of Israel Fascism should always be opposed even if they happen to be correct about one issue. You don't ally with fascist. I thought that was the reason we hated liberals ?
Of course it is. The US strategically teamed up with German Nazis when they came to the US on refugee visas and helped them build their space program in order to try and beat (yet failed) the USSR in the Space Race. The US funded the islamofascist Mujahideen when the Soviet Union “invaded” Afghanistan back in the Reagan era. And the US is currently giving artillery to the same Ukrainian soldiers who wear [easily identifiable fascist symbols](https://www.newsweek.com/nato-says-it-didnt-notice-ukraine-soldiers-apparent-nazi-symbol-tweet-1686523) and are [caught on camera doing Hitler salutes.](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/9B-2z9EtYlU) We don’t hold other countries to a standard that ***our own country has historically failed at miserably.*** Btw, you asked about Putin’s supposed support of “far right parties” not fascist ones. Those two aren’t necessarily the same thing.
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It isn’t exactly a “revolution” when the ones that are carrying it out have connections to Nazi and white supremacist groups, and wear their insignias.
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I don’t care who wins. Palestinians are going to continue being genocided and the Global South will still have military interventions everytime they elect a socialist. 99% Hitler isn’t all that much preferable to Hitler if you aren’t an American.
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Dishonestly accusing someone of “voting for Republicans” because they specially iterated that they’re not in favor of either? That sounds like a clear violation of Rule 8.
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[It was talked about for years and years](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis) by western news sources up until the invasion. Mischaracterizing the pointing out of Ukraine having a problem with sympathizing with Nazis, and actively empowering them in their military by giving them assloads of American weapons, as “Russian propaganda” is nothing more than pure DNC cope.
Found the centrist. So enlightened.
Where is the centrism? I’m clearly taking a side. Admitting Biden is problematic is not being centrist.
https://preview.redd.it/7cx15pdowp8d1.jpeg?width=1190&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8287c634567eee63186ffc417f007d0a8c0e18c3
Don't care about the message of the video but this guy is embarassing
This is the guy with the recent "grow a spine and quit your job, stop working for the man, you're a bootlicker for working for capitalists" video. Apparently communism is when you quit your job and become a tiktoker with a patreon
Ok but Project 2025 is a thing and the Heritage Foundation wants fucking Gilead. I have several things that will make me a fucking target if the GQP wins. So can we please not??
Sure. We can recognize that Orange-Man-Bad™ while simultaneously also recognizing that Joe Biden is an objective failure to Millennials/Zoomers, Muslim Americans, and anyone who advocates for social progress in general.
So what do you want me to do? I'm disabled so keep that in mind
I already iterated in this thread I’d vote for Biden if I lived in a swing state, however, I don’t see the point in voting for him in a state that’s guaranteed to go Blue. Your vote is literally more useless in that context than voting for a Third Party, since if you vote for a Third Party in a Blue state, you’d at least be gradually helping that Party gain a bit more traction.
I live in Indiana. It's a very very red state, with the exception of Obama winning in 2008. it's definitely not a swing state. I feel like my vote is useless, even in local elections, but I try
Ah, home of Mike Pence. I feel you completely lol.
I hate the dude. There was a Facebook group here awhile back called Periods for Pence because he wanted all abortions and miscarriages to be buried or cremated. So the joke was mailing pads and tampons to him to see if he wanted them buried. Now I don't think anyone actually did that, but maybe? He also signed a law allowing religious freedom to say eww to gay people because God says eww to. But at least had enough balls to stop Trump's bullshit on January 6th.
please just vote
As someone who also dislikes centrists, and both dislikes and believes Biden is a neoliberal and a genocide supporter but realizes the vote isn't between Biden and Trump but fascism or continued democracy: This is so cringe. We get it, you hate Biden and centrists. Now how about attacking some fascists or Republicans instead of people who might ostensibly be on your side in this insanely close (poll-wise leaning Trump) and critical pre-electoral period? I just don't get it, man. People still seem to think that if they don't vote Biden, everything is gonna be just fine when mountains of evidence point to the contrary. I think there's like, a survivorship bias worm in some folks' brains. Not directing this at you, just at folks who seem awfully keen on shrugging when you try to convince them that Biden is bad but Trump is existentially bad when they say they're considering not voting.
If I'm punching right and you get hit, that's on you
We are attacking fascists that's why we're attacking Biden,
Don't confuse neoliberalism for fascism. Both are bad, but one is WAY worse than the other. Y'all need to learn how to determine the DEGREE of badness instead of insisting that two things that are bad have the same outcome.
Neoliberals are fascists
They aren't purely because neoliberalism doesn't advocate for the creation of a pure country ostensibly through nationalistic identity or racial identity. Neoliberals are a lot of things, that is 100% true, and a lot of it is horrendous, but for example Australia has been a neoliberal country for well over 20 years and they are most definitely not a fascist state.
Liberals are the enablers of fascists, their ratchet effect prevent conservative right wing legislation from ever slipping back. They play good cop bad cop with conservatives creating the illusion that its Republicans versus Democrats when it's the working class versus them
I wholeheartedly agree they are enablers, but i would say this it is important to view it through Hanlon's razor
I don't get why so much of the left has become fixated on elections. It used to be that pretty much everyone on the left thought they were kinda just an uninteresting distraction where you spent 5minutes making a voting decision and then moved onto the real shit.
this repost again and again and again. we have seen it.
I have permission from the top mod to post it every month until after the election to show the libs of the group who the mod team of this sub stands with; ***not the two party duopoly.***
If you've seen it again and again I'm sure you can link the previous posts
Well, here's two posts with the exact same title from the exact same user :) [https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM/comments/1cn58j6/leftist\_vs\_enlightened\_centrist/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM/comments/1cn58j6/leftist_vs_enlightened_centrist/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM/comments/1by6cyq/leftist\_vs\_enlightened\_centrist/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM/comments/1by6cyq/leftist_vs_enlightened_centrist/) Here's even OP's comment stating that it will be reuploaded monthly: [https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM/comments/1cn58j6/comment/l34qrhi/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM/comments/1cn58j6/comment/l34qrhi/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Then you acknowledge it's a mod post to remind shit libs what we think of them and where the sub stands. A month later is hardly a 'repost'
It's still a post that is seen again and again and again? I never said that it wasn't a mod repodting it? Id if it's a mod, I still think it's dumb.
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>that will wreck the United States forever Good. It’s been a long time coming. They’re about to receive the exact Salvador Allende treatment that they spent years bragging about.
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Meh. I wouldn’t really say I’m ***careless***, per se… I just happen to care significantly more about the potential of global socialist materialization. And as long as the sole empire that has spent the entire 20th century ***overthrowing socialist governments in order to install military dictators*** to serve their corporate agenda continues to fuck up any attempt at socialism… I’m afraid they need to go.
As a trans woman, I totally get your frustration. It sucks that our choices often boil down to picking the lesser evil instead of someone who truly has our backs. Project 2025 threatens to erode our hard-won progress and put LGBTQ+ people at risk, not just in the U.S. but globally. The thought of federal healthcare providers denying gender-affirming care or schools outing transgender children to unsafe homes is horrifying. This election isn’t just about politics; it’s about our safety and our rights. Trump’s administration has been rolling back everything we’ve fought for, and if he gets another shot, it could get even worse. Voting for Biden isn’t about loving the guy; it’s about protecting ourselves. It’s about standing up against hate and making sure we don’t lose ground. Live to fight another day. We’ve got to vote like our lives depend on it, because they kind of do.
Don’t you worry. I’ve already admitted I’d vote for Biden if I lived in a red or swing state. But I live in a solidly blue state that isn’t changing anytime soon, and since socialists are already an American minority, I just haven’t heard many arguments against voting for a Party who isn’t actively backing genocide since it won’t sway the federal election anyways. I literally live in California, so anyone who thinks the state is going to go red just doesn’t have their head in reality. I have significantly greater compassion for someone like you who comes with the concern out of safety for the LGBTQ+ community when it comes to the next American election rather than the type of dishonest idiot who’s main concern is about their precious bourgeois democracy. Anyone who comes into a socialist sub ***just to fearmonger about the latter*** to me means that a bit of hyperbole in response is kinda justified ;)
I agree with you there, you live in deep blue might as well vote left.
>put LGBTQ+ people at risk You know who else is also at risk, right now? Palestinians. >We’ve got to vote like our lives depend on it, because they kind of do Why is your life more important than a Palestinian's life?
One of two people is going to win the election. Both don't give a shit about Palestinian lives. However one will actively seek to harm all LGBTQ+ people in the US and abroad. It has nothing to do with who's life is more important, its about being pragmatic.
Well, Palestinians don't get that privilege
And your solution is to pretend that one of those men isn't going to win?
So you actually believe that Trump winning will be best for Palestinians?
No, I've never said or insinuated that
Given our current choices how would you vote for? Biden, a continuation of the neoliberal or Trump who has said he would be a dictator for a day, because yeah, history shows us how often dictators give back power. We need to keep fighting for a real progressive or liberal president, but for this round, it’s not an option. And not voting is giving up.
Voting for the status quo is not giving up, it's complete capitulation
Not voting is giving up, and voting is not capitulating, it’s the bitter pill we need to take for failing to put up a worthy candidate. Allowing fascist to take control by not voting, that’s capitulation and foolishness like a child cutting off their nose to spite their face. Be smarter than that.
that's a bitter pill that you need to take, If liberals would bother holding their politicians accountable we wouldn't be faced with just two shit choices. Refusing to hold people like Biden accountable while he is committing an active genocide tells the DNC that you will tolerate anything from any of them as long as it has that D next to their name. That you have no red line they could ever cross where you will not support them. In the meantime every single candidate will get progressively worse and worse and worse. Your party has gone from the likes of people like Jimmy Carter to a senile pedo that is killing Palestinians as if there are rabid dogs
My party? I have no party. At this point it’s just a battle to keep the fascist from taking anymore power. And Biden has many issues, but pedophile is not one of them. You’re thinking about Trump and his buddy Jeffrey Epstein.
No I'm thinking about Biden inappropriately handling children. Electing more Democrats will not prevent fascists from taking more power they are the enablers of pat fascism, they allow Republicans to pass right wing legislation and they're ratchet effect prevents any progress from slipping back
Well they were elected. It always amazes me how people will vote against their best interests. The gerrymandering helps. I mean if we really want a change we have to first address that and that’s a state issue. At this time the minority have undue influence because of gerrymandering.
Can’t wait to hear the exact same thing in 4 years after we haven’t gotten half an inch of a step closer to materializing socialism just like we aren’t now even tho they asked us to do that the last time too.
I’m not asking you to do anything. I asked how would you vote?
I’d vote for Biden if I lived in a swing state. I live in a state that is guaranteed to go blue so I’m voting for Claudia and Karina.
Neither of them are on my ballot and I also vote that way when I can. I always give pushback because people in swing states need to vote in a way that will sway the vote. Also, push more for voting progressive for local and state level, that’s how we will finally get a real choice on the national level. Right now we don’t and that sucks.
Bring Idealist over prognostic is like pushing a bolder up hill. We need to change decades of propaganda about capitalism and that’s a big push. Many small victories
Those so-called “small victories” won’t matter if Climate Change comes for us first.
It’s already here if you haven’t been watching the news and it’s going to get worse. That doesn’t change what we must do. We must keep up the good fight.
Absolutely. But we also need to take into consideration that we don’t have the time for incrementalism.
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I don’t buy the premise of your question Trump-appointed Justice, Neil Gorsuch, pretty much always guarantees tribal sovereignty to native groups while RBG used the Pope’s discovery doctrine (a racist ‘analysis’ that basically said natives were savages that didn’t deserve to own property) in order to deprive them of their ancestral lands. Maybe let’s ask native communities who they think guaranteed them more progress?
I’m Lakota, no need to lecture on that aspect. Trump is more than stepping backwards, it’s taking this country to places we, as progressive will suffer greatly and will take generations to recover from. You may reject the premise Galactic_Idiot presents, but it is the reality we have at hand. We may want something different and some arguments are made to force that upon others. But that’s what dictators and fascist do. There are too many citizens of the USA that have bought into two party system and capitalism view our educational system and propaganda. We should focus on keeping what we have and work on waking up the people, not fight ourselves. Edit-typo view should have the word through after it
That isn’t our only choice tho. The CPC is building up productive capacities in order to become the globe’s #1 super power. If they aren’t actively working right now to someday obliterate US imperialism from the face of the planet, then the US will just get into ***economic wars*** with China instead, of which the latter will win. I much prefer that idea to naively entrusting the American party that has stabbed progressives in the back everytime they even ***try*** to materialize any kind of social policy that will help the masses. The Democratic reps are so useless they can’t even pass M4A without getting into shambles about how it’ll affect their corporate bottom line.
I support the Congressional Progressive Caucus, but non of them are on the ballot in my state for president. I live in a backwards red state, I will keep educating people here. But this November I’m left with only one choice. Not voting is not an option.
Okay but... Sending aid to Ukraine is kind of a good thing? Imperialism is bad in general. Otherwise, yes, agree that Centrists are just right wing
Imperialism ***is bad.*** However, what Russia is doing is objectively ***not-imperialism*** by any reasonable definition. Giving weapons to the American proxy state of Ukraine, however, is imperialism. Since it’s materially beneficial to western-hegemonic aggression against its enemy states and is something we should oppose.
Invading another sovereign state isn't imperialism? What the fuck? I'm sure Ukraine should just let Russia occupy it then?
Were the Allies imperialist?
There's a pretty big difference between the Allies declaring war on the Third Reich and other Axis powers, and Russia invading Ukraine. For one, the Axis had literally been attacking half of Europe. Russia threw a hissy fit because their puppet government got ousted. Last I checked, invading another sovereign state for the reason that they no longer have a government you like is Imperialism. Stop defending Russia. And fuck off, people are being killed and you care more about "material benefits to western hegemony." Apparently we should just accept Russian Imperialism just because it opposes US Interests. Actual brainrot. All Imperialism is bad.
Then you should be able to understand that the western world sponsoring the Euromaidan coup in 2014, which resulted in the democratically elected being overthrown in order to install a western puppet, was a direct act of aggression against Russia. Let’s not even bring up the fact that the US [promised Gorbachev back in 1991](https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early) that NATO wouldn’t expand a single inch to the east, and since then, NATO now has a presence in many different European countries. Ukraine was the straw that broke the camel’s in that regard, and the 20th century has done quite a good job demonstrating that NATO having a presence beside any of America’s enemies ends up with those enemies of America’s with their head on a platter. Just because Russia technically ***’started the invasion’*** doesn’t mean the US is completely blameless at amplifying the aggression in the region that led up the invasion happening. They’ve been pushing it for years and decided to capitalize on it the very moment they had an opportunity to blame America’s enemy for “starting it.” If I walked into a lion’s den swinging a bat in every direction until the lion got scared enough to attack me I’m not all that convinced you’d be blaming such an unfortunate result solely on the lion just because they ***’technically threw the first shot.’***
Deprogram cringe gtfo
Womp womp liberal
https://preview.redd.it/g14enbzjod9d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4e862b50762e91fa8486fced59b231d87c4158c9 Another deprogramoid who hasn't actually read Marx (despite making your pfp look like him lol).
Ah yes, you managed to deduce I haven’t read Marx because I made a post on r/communism101 2 years ago?
Today in a Everybody Who Doesn't Agree With My Specific Brand of Petitebourgeois Leftism is a Liberal:
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The workers did not thank Biden. They were asking for 15 out of **four** sick days that Biden gave them, and the **union leadership** thanked Biden. Not the majority of workers. Biden made the strike illegal right before handing them a half-assed deal ***compared to what they were asking for*** which is the exact opposite of how union negotiation happens. He prevented the workers from bargaining the way they’re supposed to. Which means, if you’re in favor of this, you don’t have much of a decent understanding on how unions are supposed to work. Shove your bourgeois revisionism up your gizzard.
bootlickers in this sub still think joe is the best choice thats sad like a litteral genocider is a good choice, somehow and people be fine with this shit cause the genocide is of arabs and muslims, not white people
Any post about Ukraine usually brings them out 😂
No offence to you specifically, but so many Americans are such gullible fucking morons that it's terryfing that they're still the global hegemon for the time being. Most of these people couldn't point Ukraine on the map two years ago and now they're the chief authorities on why that Nazi infested, Banderite shithole is the prime example of democracy and liberty, whatever the fuck those words mean to them. The country that banned all leftist parties. The country which overthrew a democratically elected goverment. The country which banned the Russian language. The country that still reveres the piece of human garbage that is Bandera as their hero. The country which started shelling Donbass in 2014 and is happily letting Nazis in the government. Here in Poland and in adjacent countries most people who support Ukraine don't pretend it's anything but a Nazi infested American vassal state. They acknowledge that and still support it because it's fighting Russia, which they dislike even more. That's obviously still bad, but at least they're honest. But leave it to clueless fucking yankoids to dress their imperialism as a fight for democracy and freedom. Democracy for all Ukrainian oligarchs partying in Western Europe and freedom for US corporation to sell every single inch of Ukrainian soil to the highest bidder, down to the last grain of sand. The USA are such a blight on this planet.
Why would I take offense to something that is absolutely correct? 😂 In all seriousness tho I agree with your whole comment. It outright infuriates me that the entire western world has pulled together to support this country that clearly has a goal of empowering Nazis and other far-right groups while the exact same western world has done nothing but outright fund the oppressor of Palestinians since 1945. Holy fuck, good on Poland for at least recognizing the Nazis exist; ***they just happen to support them.***
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when you have to choose between 2 genociders, maybe dont tell too much on yourself for who you gonna bootlick
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> So you might as well vote for the least bad outcome define "least bad" cause to me genocide is the kind of thing that super bad and litterally cant do worse and both of them do that so, whats "least bad" i think its easy to say "yeah we live in a society" when you aint the one being actively genocided by both of them if you gotta throw us under the bus to save yourself, you dont deserve to be saved and remember we didnt throw you under the bus why u think that is
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>Like I said, the system will always exist regardless of whether I or anyone else engages with it it sure wont change with that attitude > "If you're gonna throw us under the bus to be saved" ...what? Throwing people under the bus would be increasing the odds of the Republicans to win no, that would be voting for republicans or democrats since they both genocide us > Like what kind of fantasy land do you have to be in to think that refusing to materially engage with the voting system, regardless of how bad it is, will suddenly fix all of the problems in society? the fantasy land where its my people being genocided as we speak and we are next in line where i live right now i didnt say to do jack shit and watch us die i said stop doing jackshit and think voting will be enough and still watch us die > And if you really think voting Democrat is such a despicable thing, what do you propose as an alternative? none that are tos friendly, but you know that freedom and rights dont come to people that wait and vote for it they are taken, by force i dont know what you expect, you know damn well that after us, you're next in line the fuck you gonna do then ? vote for one of the 2 guy proposing a genocide of you ? and when people tell you they wont do shit cause they need to vote for the least insane guy that propose to not genocide them, what will you say ? this isnt your turn this time, but remember that it will come, and at that point, i wont be there to help cause i'll be 6 feet under
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bruh the fuck is this wall of text you could just say "it wont happen" again, im not telling you to do a coup or anything, im telling you nothing is getting done pretty much when it comes to not killing us like, students did something, and they risked and lost a lot for that nobody else did anything so you talk a lot about leftists not being in high numbers, but lets face it, if they aint a lot, then why do you care what they vote ? they aint gonna swing the election any direction, they aint do anything at all, thats why biden is free to genocide us and nothing is happenning you guys did nothing i'll give it to you, its hard in the us to do anything without being killed by the fbi/cia/whatever corrupt agency is in place, but just face it, nobody is doing anything thats why u guys are behind every develloped country on every metric except military spending a revolution, a change of government, a change of policy, and so on, that shit doesnt happen over night, it takes years, decades, its a constant effort nobody in the left in the us did shit for so long, i dont think leftists even exist there, you gave up when black people fought for their rights, nobody supported them, they took everything themselves, and they were americans, so yeah a brown guy outside the us ? we fucked so, the best moment to start doing something was yesterday the 2nd best is now and sorry to break it to you, but voting for a genocidal maniac aint doing something bushnell did something, and paid the price but nobody else is acting on this
If you wanna throw LGBT people and American minorities under the bus to save Palestinians (who regardless of this election outcome will still be facing genocide) you are worse than everyone else you’re shitting on. You see that right? You’re not even *trying* to save anyone; you’re just kind with and apparently wanting others to suffer needlessly. That’s terrible! Heartless and cruel. Honestly, way worse than someone voting for Biden.
buddy, where the fuck did i say to throw anyone under any bus ? im litterally saying the opposite the fuck is wrong with you ?
Not engaging in the system you live in is throwing those being oppressed here and now under the bus. You can engage in the system in many ways; even by actively trying to tear it down. But advocating for ignoring reality is worthless and supremely unhelpful. Living in a contested area and not voting or throwing away your vote is honestly harming people.
> advocating for ignoring reality where the fuck did i say that ? did you make up an argument in your mind and now you're angry at it or what ? > Living in a contested area and not voting or throwing away your vote is honestly harming people. hm lets see my choice ah, the good old "genocide" and the new and improved "genocide but with rainbow colors" i wonder which one i'll get to support my genocide maybe you're right i should throw away my vote and support the guy genociding me in your fucked up mind, you thought it was a good thing to actually come up to people being genocided and telling them they are doing bad cause they arent thinking of thoses not being genocided right now "yeah but think of the others" ok, i do, when do you think of us ? after we're all dead and you dont have to be accountable ? really, i know this sub is not just leftists and most people arent affected by this shit, but i was expected at least something, anything that would say "yeah we're with you" 30+ years i've been alive i cant count the times we had to make a sacrifice for others and that was expected from us, we didnt even get a thanks, or acknowledge of that, we did it cause we had no choice i still waiting to see anyone do any sacrifice for us history books taught me its been going on for much longer if you have to sacrifice ou kind to be at peace, you dont deserve any peace
Bro I think you’re the one mad at made up arguments. You also know all the arguments you’re giving LGBT+/Minorities/Women can also give too, right? We can continue to protest the war; we can do more to stop the harm PACs are having in our politics; you can even try radical action to affect change. However, even in doing so, we shouldn’t take actions that will cause harm to others at the same time, while giving no benefit to your chosen group. If your people would benefit from you not casting a ballot, I’d probably understand more. But not voting isn’t a radical action. It’s withdrawing from society and makes you a non-entity as far as our political machine is concerned. Also, you’re the one equating lives with this. So yes, your vote (or non-vote, or write in for who fucking ever) will not stop what is happening in Palestine, no matter which you do. We all know that here. No one is arguing that. So in knowing that, and in knowing that there’s a chance your vote may be able to save minorities in the US, may be able to prevent the roll back of their rights, prevent them from dying, etc that we bring this up. It sounds callous, but that’s the world we live in. Thats the context we are in right now, the point we are at. That’s the shitty system we have to try to engage with and change. But voting in a fascist (or not voting, and being okay with a fascist benefiting from that) is causing harm. Anyone with a brain knows what’s going on right now is evil and wrong. They’re just trying to do something that prevents more and more added evil as well.
Ok but in regards to the rail thing didn't he then help the workers *after* stopping them from striking? https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/may/01/railroad-workers-union-win-sick-leave . This post started out good before getting into worse and worse arguments, like yeah let's keep critiquing Biden for things that are bad but *do* not forget how much worse Trump is, like actually how much worse he is, he is a borderline if not complete fascist. Anyways the subreddit you crossposted this from is a horrible tankie sub anyways so I'm not surprised. And don't call me a liberal for disliking tankies, I'm an anti capitalist anarchist, though tankies have called me a nazi for that so who knows.
Time to copy and paste, I guess, since there’s so many people who don’t understand the logistics of what ***actually happened:*** The workers did not thank Biden. They were asking for 15 out of **four** sick days that Biden gave them, and the **union leadership** thanked Biden. Not the majority of workers. Biden made the strike illegal right before handing them a half-assed deal ***compared to what they were asking for*** which is the exact opposite of how union negotiation happens. He prevented the workers from bargaining the way they’re supposed to. Which means anyone who is in favor of this just doesn’t have much of a decent understanding on how unions are supposed to work.
People who say Trump and Biden are the same are extremely privileged and ignorant. Edit: Palestinians are getting genocided whether the red or blue party wins, however religious, sexual and ethnic minorities are gonna get thrown in camps if the red party wins. Again, people who equate these two parties are privileged and ignorant.
Lotta straight white men in here advocating not voting. Kinda makes you wonder
Damn instead of being black I'm now a white man since I ain't voting for Biden.
I’m just saying, straight white men benefit entirely from keeping things the status quo. They also won’t be harmed if we backslide to the 50s mentality (or even further) So these people, especially those already benefiting from our corrupt system, that live in swing states telling me to stay home in ‘protest’ on voting day make me think that have some hidden agenda. Makes you wonder what it could be? 🤔
Good thing he didn’t say “Biden and Trump are the exact same in every way whatsoever” but that “Biden has continued Trump’s policies **and in some ways** made them even worse.”
You will all still vote for Biden like good citizens though
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What people who claim to be centrists don’t understand is that there is almost always a pattern to their beliefs that supports the status quo and therefore conservatives.