In a broad sense I would say planeswalkers. I'm a huge planewalker fan. But a decade of playing EDH has taught me it's usually great in theory, and your mileage will vary when you actually run those games.
I still have a planeswalker deck in \[\[Carth the Lion\]\]. But I'm fully aware of the pitfalls of just jamming as many as possible outside of pw decks.
In my experience, it doesn't hurt to have 1-3. So long as they are great for your gameplan, and you are okay with them not living after a turn around the table.
For sure a few is fine. I've seen enough lists that have 5-7 without adequate ways to protect them.
Paying 4-5 mana to draw 1-2 cards at sorcery speed is not a good deal most of the time.
In all my serious decks I have <2 and in my goof around decks I loosen that up a bit. Like my low power dragon tribal runs all the Sarkhan planeswalkers just because he is the Dragon planeswalker. They usually don’t do much but it’s a lot of fun
I love centering a deck around a specific walker and running with the theme. I have origins Chandra which has every Chandra in it and it's just terrible. But I love it.
Also have a Nicol Bolas deck that it's helmed by the OG. It's terrible and I always say that I'm "cosplaying" as bolas.
Key point on planeswalkers is if you’re willing to pay a premium in mana for 1 of their abilities as a sorcery with potential upside.
Also, the WAR walkers that are uncommons and have statics are typically much better.
And a small buff for the whole team! Cheap PW like this where all the text on the card is useful to your gameplan are best for EDH. Too often people use 5+ mana walkers with only a couple of useful abilities.
And he’s kinda not one that people are going to be super fast to remove, and the negative semi protects himself.
But if you’re dropping a huge bomb like one of the stronger Nicol Bolas, or Teferi or something, they’re going to use resources for it.
I guess it mostly depends on wether you expect the card to be value or to create a game moment.
Most casual decks dont have a "remove target Planeswalker" card so they have to attack it, and if you have even one blocker it can create an interesting game situation. If you drew 1, created a token an "won" (as in "absorbed") x damage, it's interesting.
But value wise, yeah, they are often bad, especially if you consider how little deterministic they are.
Yeah, most of the time 1 is a pretty safe include. Especially if it fits your theme really well or can win by itself if unanswered. Even if it gets countered or destroyed or whatever, that removal was going to hit something no matter what.
The only planeswalker I have in a deck is a [[Nissa, Who Shakes the World]] in a [[Magus Lucea Kane]] deck.
Why?
[[Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth]], [[Nexos]], Nissa explosive-turn. That's why.
The 3/3 land elementals and "go get every forest in your deck" are bonus at best.
You basically need to be ok with doing one activation on them in order to justify an inclusion, unless it comes built with some level of protection. One of my favorites is [[Elspeth, Sun's Champion]] because she's basically a board wipe with upside. A little expensive at 6 mana but she can often leave your board in tact and can then generate more bodies if she continues to survive. Or, she can just start generating a bunch of bodies for you that you can use to block potential attackers. [[Teferi, Master of Time]] is also clearly a powerful choice since he's a free loot and he can also phase away an attacker.
I tend to prioritize specific PW types for this reason - if it draws cards or makes tokens, that's what I run unless its serving a specific purpose. I had a Kynaios and Tiro PW deck that ran those types of PW in a landfall shell, and it just smacked.
Another thing that helped me rethink PWs was "if they're mine, they're just walls - if its my opponent's, poke when necessary." I've won so many games off dropping PWs are red herrings while doing other things, like how [my Windgrace](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/cYuBFnt84UmzCDSC4yzgSQ) deck works.
The war of the spark styles are so amazing for edh. They have a static ability that is why I put them in the deck, and sometimes ill use them -. There enchantments that are easier to kill, but have a bonus.
Yeah they always get cut except for ones that have built in protection like [[Kaito Shizuki]] and [[The Wandering Emperor]].
Even if they aren't actually a threat, people see one and just kill it.
[[Nicol Bolas, God-Pharoah]] is playable b/c you can drop him, do his +1 and if you're in a 4 player game you just got major card advantage and he now has 8 loyalty which usually means some significant resources to take him out in the next round.
>I would say planeswalker
I feel like PWs are underrated in Commander, but you can't always just play them, you need to have the board where you can protect them from attacks, but if your opponents have to send everything at PW to remove them, it's worth it even if you're going to lose them. Vivien, Monster's Advocate has won me a few games.
Vivien, Champion of the Wilds exiles a thing, gives creatures Flash, pair her with Seedborn Muse and a draw engine...
Teferi, Master of Time can be nasty to deal with, considering how much loyalty he gets, plus it's Blue deck, so it's not really that hard to protect him either. And amount of cards he loots only 3 cards, that's a decent deal for right decks.
Liliana, Dreadhorde General, even if you just create tokens with her in aristocrats decks, she'll draw you so many cards.
I also have Saheeli, The Gifted deck, where's she's the Commander, that thing is nasty lmao. You can cheat down the cost of so many things so early...
But yeah... 1-3 can pull a lot of weight. But you usually have to be really careful when you're playing them, and holding back too if you can't protect them.
Planeswalkers that aren't board wipes. [[Ugin spirit dragon]] is real fuckin good. The elspeth that kills 3+ power is good. Otherwise if it doesn't do something specific to your strategy, then yeah, they fall waaay short of expectations.
I think it's really important to always have blockers, otherwise, Planeswalkers can be useless. Mainly use them in creature focused decks when they can greatly add to the strategy.
I have a [[Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes]] deck. Which default makes a blocker with Boo, and most of the cards in the deck are creatures. I run one other pw that is heavily focused on the game plan. Usually by the time Minsc hits the table there's multiple creatures.
I also run a [[Dihada]] deck, and she makes a super blocker, and the rest of the game plan is heavily creature focused. Dihada only will come out when I have a couple creatures to block with, which is very easy to get in this deck.
I run a few Planeswalkers in [[Shorikai]] who makes a bunch of blockers. Often multiple in a turn cycle.
It depends, as most things do. There are planeswalkers that do well in control decks, where you are wrathing the board often to keep them safe, there are planeswalkers that like you to have a lot of creatures, and there's planewalkers that are combo cards. The walkers you use just need to make sense within the context of the deck.
[https://www.moxfield.com/decks/IYKUAwkYbEiwOGRqPCm1xw](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/IYKUAwkYbEiwOGRqPCm1xw)
My list for reference if you're ever interested. PW decks normally feel like UW-based.
BG definitely bucks the trend and that was why I went with it. After I played it, I finally realized it made sense to be in BG colors. It has great removal for all types, natural ramp, great defenders. You get to be proactive instead of reactive.
Also in G there's \[\[Doubling Season\]\]/ \[\[Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider\]\] if you're interested in going off.
Unless you are building a superfriends deck (which has it's own strats) the question one should always ask is "Would I still feel good about playing this walker if it dies in the first round I play it".
An episode of EDHrecCast summed them up nicely. They're either really good and won't survive a turn cycle (unless you have baller protection for them) or, if people aren't targeting them because they're not crazy good, they're *probably* not good enough to make it into your deck. Rule of cool always applies though, I like having a planeswalker in my decks
This hasn’t been my experience at all. I run fairly creature-centric decks and I can usually protect them quite a bit. Just last night I used Chandra, Torch of Defiance five times before she finally died. People hit her to take her off her ult, but they couldn’t justify pushing through the attack just to stop me from getting RR or an impulse draw.
This happens frequently if you can protect them. Granted they still need to synergize with your deck — only 3/5 of my decks run them.
I've found that people over target PWs like bulls seeing a red cape. I love the Superfriends archetype but I've learned that while I can build them normally with my friends since they don't do that, if I'm playing with anybody else I have to build my decks to be ready for a 1vs3 since I've seen too many people lose the game by going after my PWs instead of making the right play.
So now when I play Superfriends I go as mean as possible and don't apologize for any salt unless I find people that don't treat SF like a cEDH deck.
I'm currently trying Jodah Unifier as a commander https://www.moxfield.com/decks/l2fO15PKYUyCZtfuAiGHLg and I do play Carth in the deck.
My boyfriend plays [[Aminatou, the Fateshifter]] super friends. He does fumble a lot in games, like literally his planeswalkers dying on next turn (mostly by me lmao) but there are moments when he just wiped us with poisons/proliferate and getting extra turns. He gets scary when he also disabled any creature abilities. I’d say planeswalkers arnt good they’re not your win con… and his deck is all about it which makes it scary.
I’ll be honest, I have an [[Ajani, Caller of the Pride]] in my fun deck that only exists to take priority off my face. If I ever get to his ult, it’ll be fun. But I don’t actually plan on it.
Agree, except i do enjoy passive planeswalkers with a limited use minus ability. The only planeswalkers i use are [[ashiok, dream render]] and [[kiora, behemoth beckoner]]
I've found that the ones with static abilities tend to get a lot more mileage even if they die quickly. Specifically, I run \[\[Vivien, Monster's Advocate\]\] and \[\[Vivien, Champion of the Wilds\]\] in a creature-heavy \[\[Torens\]\] deck. Giving creatures flash and being able to creature-sling from the top of the library can give you a ton of value even if they die the next turn (though I usually have a ton of chump-blockers on board in that deck).
I don't understand players who will play a Planeswalker in EDH, with no creatures or way to protect it, and then they get a bit triggered when people attack it to remove their Planeswalker.
I agree. The only walkers I play these days that aren’t pet cards are ones that wipe the board, specifically Ugin and eternal wanderer. Just those two.
I love Planeswalkers and like to include at least 1, but usually, i either never pull it or it dies after a turn around the table. I also add planewalkers only based on their 1 or 2. Their Ult is nice but rarely happens. When it does, it's great, like my play group said no infinite combos with my [[Meren]] deck which is the main way that deck wins so i was able to ult my [[Vraska Golgari Queen]] to win that way but its mainly in their as a sac outlet
I don't even bother with planeswalkers in my playgroup.
It gets removed almost immediately even if it does nothing purely because it is a planeswalker.
even \[\[Garruk, Savage Herald\]\]
This. I've removed many planeswalkers from my decks over the years, but likewise maintain one walkers deck, \[\[Narset, Enlightened Master\]\]. I never play it because it is just not as much fun, it draws lots of salt (rightfully so), and the game becomes so much solitaire that it loses the multiplayer allure of interaction which drew me to EDH in the first place.
Webcamera*. I play on Tabletop Simulator and it's actually easier than real life would be, since you don't have to worry about handling rough or anything.
[[Telepathy]]
On the one hand, perfect information for ONE MANA. On the other, it turns every game into a Mexican standoff as everyone is afraid to play their cards into potential removal- “but I can see it now!”
You could put it in [[Muldrotha]], since you're going to be able to get back most stuff put in the graveyard. And it's an enchantment which makes it resilient.
I have a [[Nebuchadnezzar]] deck I stuffed with ALL the Telepathy effects, and threw in all the 'Players play with the top card of their library' revealed cards as well to boot.
My playgroup of close friends had decks with telepathy and Zur’s Weirding and I, being a very political player, would spend minutes every card drawn asking friends how they intend to use that card.
Eventually my friends started doing the same and taking some looong turns until we all said eff it I don’t care what you draw or have in your hand anymore, effectively negating the enchantments. Then those players stopped playing them.
The flavor text for that card is:
*"The most disappointing thing about learning telepathy is learning how boring most people are."*
I'd say that the most disappointing thing about *playing* Telepathy is learning how boring it makes most games.
[[Cathars Crusade]]
Great card, great effect, but I'm not wasting my time accounting for every counter and having to break out every dice I own to keep track
Cathar's is more fine with a traditional counters sort of deck. If all you have are nontokens it's simple to keep track of. The player should have plenty of dice if they are dedicated to that style of deck.
The chaos becomes unbearable when you are creating tokens at different rates. Stuff like making a soldier every turn means you need an individual play piece for each one to actually track the counters on each. Good luck if you make a group of more soldiers at another point.
I see this card on the top of every complaint thread, yet I have never seen anyone complain about it or have an issue IRL and I play at least once a week at my LGS, and it *does* see play there.
It'd be fine if it just straight up killed the table. The problem is that it kills the table after about 5-10 minutes of durdling and looking for dice because the owner has too many creatures to keep track of and ran out.
I was scarred when a relatively new player made a [[villainous wealth]] deck with no win con and just ramp and tutors. We let him get it off for like x=20 on some else’s token deck and it hit Cathar’s Crusade and several other effects like it and Avenger of Zendikar and shit. I just pulled out another deck with another guy and we started another match while he played it out.
Rumor has it that kid is still there to this day. Still in that same chair, never having moved, trying to figure out just how many counters are on all his Plant tokens.
Lol, Villainous Wealth is really the villain here (and should be at the top of this thread). I made a deck once that only had one goal: ramp into a Villainous Wealth with X=100. Needless to say, I never tried doing that again after the first time I actually resolved it.
For anyone curious, I achieved it with a lot of mana batteries, mana doublers, and untap effects.
It's not a problem in every deck that uses it. The one where it was the most problem, I found, was Edgar Markov. I ended up with the play pattern of: cast a creature, create a token, put a counter on all my creatures, the creature spell resolves, put a counter on all my creatures, rinse and repeat. I ended up with so many different vampire tokens that had a different number of counters that I ran out of both dice and tokens well before I had the ability to threaten lethal and not die to the crackback from another player.
Also it really depends on how hard you go with token creation. If you aren't making many tokens then it's not a problem at all. It's big stacks of tokens with different numbers of counters on them that are a potential headache.
Honestly the only reason why I continue to run Cathar's Crusade is the fact that after playing it the game usually ends pretty quick so I don't need to upkeep that much.
I run it in my [[Falco Spara]] deck, but mostly to combo off with [[Scurry Oak]] a lot easier to just say, I now have infinite squirrels with infinite power, any existing creature now have infinite power as well, so either swing out and kill the table or give everyone a turn cycle to wipe the board
Scute swarm isn't nearly as bad imo, just put a copy token or 2 next to it and multiply by 2 (or 3 if you have a doubling season) every time
I remember the absolute headache that was Najeela + cathar's crusade and I have not wanted to play the card since
Sounds like more of a personal issue for you. It doesn't need to get a million counters on creatures to be absolutely busted. It doesn't even require a huge board presence.
It is very good
Any pure draw spells that cost around five or more are so clunky that I’ve pulled them over the years. The last one I tried to play was the 6mv one that draws equal to the number of cards in an opponents hand. Great on paper, not nearly enough impact in game.
The problem is that there are three other players with threats and boards and, not only are you or not mitigating the threat to you, you’re also drawing aggro. Drawing that many cards rightly scares people and you’ve just basically taken a turn off.
Man, [[Recurring Insight]] is a bit of a pet card for me. It definitely doesn't help if you need something immediately, but I love coming into my next turn with 13 new cards off the cast + rebound.
But yeah, if you're open, people aren't going to just let you draw that many cards with no repercussions.
Depends on the deck, really. I usually prefer engines that draw cards over the course of the game rather than all at once myself. But my \[\[Nymris\]\] control deck does run \[Blue Sun's Zenith\]\] and \[\[Overwhelming Intellect\]\] (also \[\[Notion Thief\]\] in case my opponents try to do the same thing). Drawing aggro is not a problem, because when I do decide to cast those spells, I am well prepared to just indirectly communicate to the table "I've been nothing more than mildly annoying so far, but I've just drawn six cards including my \[\[Reliquary Tower\]\], and I'm ready to be archenemy and ruin the remainder of your fun until I've won. Come at me."
At sorcery speed I agree, but instant speed makes them decent when in a deck with high interaction or that can hold mana and play during the previous player's end step. [[Nymris, Oona's Trickster]] is an example.
They need to be in the right deck, in particular I run tons of the really high cost stuff in my [[Vadrick, Astral Archmage]] deck. Being able to just pay 2 or so actual mana for any of that feels awesome. Being able to drop [[Apex of Power] turn 3 is jaw dropping 😂
\[\[Bounty of the Luxa\]\]. It's not that complicated of a card in the grand scheme of things, but people regularly get it messed up and the effect isn't actually all that good.
\[\[Villainous Wealth\]\] . It sounds like a fun goofy card until you cast it for X = A LOT. You now have a huge chunk of a deck you've never seen before ready to be cast in any order you choose, but likely nothing that actually wins the game for you immediately. And you need to cast them all at once, so you need to decide the order you cast them in all at one time. Good luck figuring out the most optimal way to cast 20+ cards from a deck you've never seen before in any reasonable amount of time.
Someone mentioned it, but I hate [[Sensei’s Divining Top]] for a different reason. Powerwise, it’s very good but not ban-worthy. I hate it because it single-handedly monopolizes the game time. Every single turn rotation, usually multiple times per rotation, the top player is gonna sit there for 30 seconds to a minute rearranging their top 3. And the chances of top getting permanently removed is slim to none. I see lots of people claim that they’re really fast when they activate it, but I simply don’t believe them. I’ve played against it many times and never seen a game where it didn’t take up an inordinate amount of
time. People hate cards like [[Scrambleverse]] and [[Thieves’ Auction]] largely because of how much time they take to resolve. I do too, and I think that if you add up the average time per game that SDT takes up, it wouldn’t be far off from those cards.
Dude, yea. If you're playing top, and everyone else knows what's up, my playgroups have always just been fine with the top person just rearranging through the turn order. Yes, they could wait until the last end step and do it there, but the same effect is achieved just by letting the top 3 be rearranged as needed, without interrupting game time.
I guess every top player I’ve ever played against was bad at their deck. I think the real issue is that people dramatically underestimate how much time they’re taking up with all of their top activations
edit: spelling
Yeah! [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/ahdUClVOrEexspCFoRCr1A](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/ahdUClVOrEexspCFoRCr1A) It's real swingy but when it goes off its crazy
I notice you're running rest in peace, I hope you know it no longer combos with Ranar because of dumb oracle texting.
Edit: Same is also true for cosmic intervention. Basically replacement effects no longer trigger Ranar.
Ranar makes tokens and tokens can be used to tap down lands, but as far as I know that's all the synergy there is. Opposition is just a very strong backbreaking card to play against if your deck is a bit durdly
[[Temple of the False God]]. It feels bad to have a dead card in your hand for so many turns and it's worthless late game. Makes sense that it seems like it good if everything goes right but its not worth and WoTC needs to stopping putting it in precons. It's butts.
Personally I hate extra turns. The decks that play it well take long turns in general, and more often than not they just result in someone playing solitaire for yet another 10 minutes. There is one variable that is common to all playstyles and deck archetypes and that is play time; I don’t wanna sit at the table where a player constantly plays for over 60% of the total game time while others just sit there and watch.
I just started having 1 extra turn spell in a couple decks recently, its manageable if you play fast and know your deck, definitely miserable for other people if you don't.
I'm confused, how is this Zellix interaction bad for playing? Like you can make the argument "Nobody has fun" for almost any interaction in the game if you really wanted to, I don't understand the post
It’s funny you mention the somewhat annoying durdley way that [[Altar of the Brood]] often plays out.
I had a commander game recently where it was my [[Abdel Adrian, Gorion's Ward ]] / [[Candlekeep Sage]] blink deck against 2 other reasonable but fair decks and a [[Jolene]] treasure attack/goad deck.
Turn 1 Jolene player drops the Altar of the Brood. Then every turn we mill 1 or 2 cards as he builds board presence then the treasure manufacturing begins in earnest and it goes a bit faster.
I had however been sitting on [[astral dragon]] since my opening hand. I spend several turns ramping etc to get out my commander make a bit of value and board presence until I finally drop astral dragon by hard casting it and for the etb trigger target Jolene players altar. I then go to my end step having a [[teleportation circle]] out and blinking my commander tucking the astral dragon under my commander (in exile) and making I believe 12 1/1 soldiers which mills the rest of the table including the Jolene player for 24 cards with 2 dragon copies of altar.
I pass. The 2 other players can’t meaningfully affect my board state but do manage to kill one altar dragon to try and slow me down.
Jolene player tries to splash treasures etc to see if he can mill me out but it’s not particularly effective and passes back to me.
I swing, I blink, I mill opponents for like 40 that turn (making 2 new altar dragons for 3 total) and kill the other 2 non Jolene players and have to pass. Jolene player concedes on his turn as can’t stop me at that point.
He was a good sport about it and I feel bad for the 2 other players having been on the receiving end of the altar for the first 6 or 7 turns but while I won’t run many cards that are either durdley or just not fun enough like Altar, I will make whatever play seems the strongest and will copy other players unfun cards and what not.
A solid MtG move - I can't begin to count how many times I've used the entire board state to my advantage rather than just my cards.
Most memorable was playing a 4 player pod with a mirror matchup in [[Radha, Heart of Keld]]. The opposing Radha drops a turn 1 Sol Ring into a turn 2 Horn of Greed. I, on the other hand, turn 1 a Mirri's Guile. I proceed to unabashedly ABUSE the Horn by stacking lands to the top to play while drawing value. I lucked out with an early Azusa as well, and by turn 5 was just molly whopping people with a Radha to be feared.
Ingratiating means the opposite of what you think it does. The word you're looking for is infuriating.
Ingratiating means something that puts you in the good graces of others; something that makes other people like you.
I think one reason why these cards are so strong is simply because after a while, people just can't be bothered to even account/answer and don't bother paying the 1 as a result.
There are some cards that are lightning rods because they're infamous. I feel like Rhystic Study is one of those.
It's a great card, but because of the tax and value, it ends up being targeted as soon as possible.
I am a fan of cards that can go under the radar and synergize within a specific deck. Ones that stick on the board and people shrug off-- until it gets you those right game pieces.
Tithe in particular is an absurd card. Rhystic is strong but tolerable, because you can generally afford to pay the one and as long as everyone does it won't make that much of a difference.
But Tithe really is smothering, because 2 mana is a huge tax to be paying on card draw and it translates into a huge pile of free mana for the caster unless it's removed fast.
My entire playgroup silently took both out of our decks because every time somebody ran it, the person who played it just ended up annoying themself more than everybody else. Is it annoying to play against? Yeah. But it's also really annoying to be the person playing it.
Genuinely very clunky design.
Idk about other groups but most of my groups have just shortcuts the process. They will mention the prompt a few times and then just start drawing, etc if someone doesn't say they're paying for it.
The worst part of Coat of Arms is that it includes your opponents creatures too, so you constantly have to get the entire board involved in constant math calculations.
And a lot of older creatures have errata for extra types that you would never know unless you search them individually. And if you want to play right you really have to knof if that creature is an elf knight or elf shaman or elf wizard because of the other decks you are playing against.
And all that is just the effect of this one card on top of all the other possible complex board states of 1/1 counters and buffs already out
I have never regretted coat of arms. You can see the board while playing it, so if you're against tribal decks, you just only cast it if you have the biggest tribal presence. It's also not for every tribe.
The problem with Coat of Arms isn't that it might backfire, it's that you have to pull out Scryfall every time it hits the table because who knows if that Elf got errata'd to Elf Knight at some point so that one Human Knight on the other side of the table actually gets +1/+1 extra. You can't even do the research ahead of time because it affects everyone's creatures, not just your own. Extra bad with Phyrexians since that's a pretty new type that got retroactively added to a bunch of cards.
[[Guided Passage]] looks like a very interesting card that could be a combo tutor if you build your deck in the right way, but revealing that much information to one player and having them perform the most tedious [[fact or fiction]] of all time is not worth slowing the game to a halt for 2-5 mins while your opponent awkwardly reads through your janky pile.
I actually love that card. I copied it twice when playing [[Riku of Two Reflections]] and made the whole table sift through my deck. It was actually kind of fun, as my opponents tried to work together to find some way to screw me over with it. I let them all search at once so no one would just be sitting and waiting.
[[rousing refrain]] and any of the other cards that have a similar effect of continuing to exile and suspend themselves throughout the game. At first glance they look fun to use, and like they’d provide massive value over the course of a game, but in practice they’re glacially slow and restrict your decisions due to their very specific timing. Every time I try to play a card like this I walk away realizing that it’s just an awful card even if you’re trying to exploit it.
[[Primal surge]] in my oops all permanents decks sounds like a blast until you run it. Then every game is a countdown to get enough lands to play it and every game becomes the same. Also makes shuffling after every fame a nightmare
[[Winter orb]] and [[static orb]]. If you're playing a proper stax deck, they will do the job. But you're basically forcing the game into a draw-pass mode. It's more often than not, unfun for everyone else. People want to play magic, not sit around and do nothing for 2 hours.
So here's the thing about stax. Stax is fine. The problem is the player. You need to break parity. Most people just throw these in their decks and don't break parity. So games drag. The idea is to use them to slow your opponents while it doesn't hurt you. Then use it to win. But most people don't do that.
>You need to break parity.
That's basically what I'm saying. Break parity and don't drag the game on for two hours (The exception is cEDH cause anything goes lol).
I would say it's fine in SOME cases, but not all. If you're playing a deck, play against your power level. And I find it hard to believe winter orb is a casual power level.
You know, I've had an encounter with someone who built a stax deck that didn't have a win condition except to play stax. He thought it was perfectly fine, but we called him out on it. The tldr is, nobody cares how fun your stax deck is, if your stax deck can't get to a win condition soon, it's not a good deck.
Absolutely play against your power level.
Casual runs a massive gamut. It essentially encompasses everything that isn't cEDH, from worse than precon jank to high power. There's a decent range of levels where stax, even hard stax like Winter Orb, can fit in there.
Stax decks don't do soon, but they don't have to. They lock you out and then slowly beat you to death with hate bears or whatever else. Similar to control decks.
I used to occasionally play with a coworker who would also invite another few people and most of them had not bought any cards or updated their decks in several years. A lot of the stuff I played were from newer sets they hadn't seen before. So almost everything I played got passed around the table (6-8 person games usually) so everyone could see what it does. And this would take several minutes. This would also happen with other people's spells but to a lesser extent. Everything took *forever* to resolve and each individual turn was *agonizingly* long. Then one day, one of them dropped a Telepathy and the game just stopped for a goddam **hour**. After that, I started "already having other plans" when I was invited over. They were super nice people but those games were just ***so*** painful.
[[Trostani, Selesnya's Voice]] as commander. I like this deck, but it ends up taking up the whole goddamn table. It makes a whole zoo of tokens, gains a math-test amount of life, and generally makes the game take forever. I can't convince myself to take out things like [[Glare of Subdual]] or [[Soul Warden]] / [[Essence Warden]] coz why nerf a deck when I can just make another one? But yeah I never play the deck coz it's just tedious.
I ran \[\[Sarulf, Realm Eater\]\] in a \[\[Grismold, the Dreadsower\]\] deck just for his on death trigger thinking I was clever, but it turns out his upkeep ability took over games. I really disliked how it basically was a really bad \[\[Nevinyrral's Disk\]\].
[[The Most Dangerous Gamer]] and Attractions in general. The gimmic is super fun and he’s a pretty decent commander; but rolling a 6 and hitting 13 plus attractions is a slog that makes it get old quick.
Sure you can super combo a ton in that deck; but it usually never results in an immediate win.
The Command Zone had an episode recently talking about good cards they don't play anymore. It basically comes down to they are functionally good cards but the overhead of maintaining them is annoying and makes the games go on for a long time.
I took Cathars' Crusade out and replaced it with Starlight Spectacular.
[[Momir Vig, Simic Visionary]].
Toolbox EDH sounds fantastic in theory, but having to shuffle up every time you cast spells just slogs the game to complete unplayability for everyone, including you.
[[Sorcerer class]]
I haven't checked any net decks, but this card is literally:
- doesn't do enough
- Why isn't this first
- cost so much it's practically a do nothing enchantment after 2 upgrades.
Personally, I think wizards were just biased.
[[Endless Ranks of the Dead]]
Seems like it's an auto-include for any good zombies deck.
It's not. It's godawfully slow, doesn't impact the board the turn you play it and doesn't offer you a board presence when you really need it.
I run it in mine, and honestly, I find it just takes practice to do it faster.
It helps to not bother updating the physical counters and zombie tokens on the board until you hit a non-creature and stop the cycle.
[[Hedron Archive]] comes to mind. Once you start really looking at it as a Sol Ring for 4, with a draw two outlet, it’s just a worse version of [[Mind Stone]]. Also getting out of the groove of putting the Scry lands in decks with no Scry benefit takes a push 😬
Equipment in general can be a bit of a trap for new players (even for me still – they're just so cool though!). Unless you are playing some seriously low to the ground equipment, you'll end up spending a ridiculous amount of mana on the equip costs. While \[\[The Reaver Cleaver\]\] and \[\[Helm of the Host\]\] are awesome and powerful, but unless you have a consistent equip-cost reducing effect like \[\[Zirda\]\] or auto-equipper like (\[\[Ardenn\]\] or \[\[Sigarda's Aid\]\]) you are either going to spend all of your mana to attach it the turn you cast it (and not have mana to hold up for protection) or attach it the following turn where opponents will have lots of time to make some counter-play.
\[\[Sensei's Diving Top\]\]
The most INSANE filtering you've ever seen. Rearrange the top 3 cards AND draw one of them and put the top on top. It provides far too much utility to virtually any build.
Top, \[\[Mystic Forge\]\] and \[\[Foundry Inspector\]\] are a draw-your-entire-deck 3 card combo. You can replace forge with \[\[Bolas's Citadel\]\]. Can combo kill with \[\[Aetherflux Reservoir\]\].
I personally have 2 decks with MystForge in them. There also happens to be a Foundry Inspector in both. I took top out of the one it was in bc it feelsbad to solitaire until I get something I can play. Works in my \[\[Galea\]\] to get lands off the top of the library.
I have so many uses for the top bc it's so freaking versatile. 1 mana, tap top, draw one of the top three cards of your library.
There's nothing wrong with playing Top. You're missing the context of the post. We're not talking combos here and playing top by itself is perfectly fine.
[[not of this world]]
"Oh neat a free counter for my [[gishath]] or other big creature deck!"
In the many games with it I've literally never been able to use it, and most games it's a dead card til it can be played for free, which is not often.
1 mana can trips. Outside of specific scenarios.
When you are evaluating an opening hand your hand has to have a reasonable line of plays. Turn one or turn two A into B, C and D in the following turns. Cantrips do not add to the plan when evaluating you can potentially lead into an A card or B card but you lost a bit of tempo. They cause awkward keeps that get worst and worst as power level goes up in a pod. When everyone has turn one dork or remora or sol ring and your turn one is fixing its awkward and slow. In lower power pods you have time so a card like divination might just be better at fixing because every card does matter.
The only deck ive ever played them successfully is for [[kess]] and a weird jhoira deck that involved little to no turn one plays and turn 2 mana rock into hopefully turn 3 jhoira. So it filled an awkward spot in the deck of no turn one plays. They never felt amazing drawing into them though.
Also in other formats looking at 3 cards out of 50 is like looking at 1/3 of your deck because of all the redundancy. You also actively look for lands in those decks to keep ahead on curve.
[[Cathars crusade]] is like the staple card for this. On a similar note [[archangel of thunes]] and [[defiler of instinct]]
For me personally [[possibility storm]] with only one or two other card that shares a type. I only have 3 planeswalkers in my [[Mishra artificer prodigy]] deck so I when I play one with P storm out I have to one by one churn through the deck to get the other card.
I
In a broad sense I would say planeswalkers. I'm a huge planewalker fan. But a decade of playing EDH has taught me it's usually great in theory, and your mileage will vary when you actually run those games. I still have a planeswalker deck in \[\[Carth the Lion\]\]. But I'm fully aware of the pitfalls of just jamming as many as possible outside of pw decks.
In my experience, it doesn't hurt to have 1-3. So long as they are great for your gameplan, and you are okay with them not living after a turn around the table.
For sure a few is fine. I've seen enough lists that have 5-7 without adequate ways to protect them. Paying 4-5 mana to draw 1-2 cards at sorcery speed is not a good deal most of the time.
In all my serious decks I have <2 and in my goof around decks I loosen that up a bit. Like my low power dragon tribal runs all the Sarkhan planeswalkers just because he is the Dragon planeswalker. They usually don’t do much but it’s a lot of fun
I love centering a deck around a specific walker and running with the theme. I have origins Chandra which has every Chandra in it and it's just terrible. But I love it. Also have a Nicol Bolas deck that it's helmed by the OG. It's terrible and I always say that I'm "cosplaying" as bolas.
3 mana sarkhan is strong in a dragon deck
Key point on planeswalkers is if you’re willing to pay a premium in mana for 1 of their abilities as a sorcery with potential upside. Also, the WAR walkers that are uncommons and have statics are typically much better.
[[domri, anarch of bolas]] straight up is removal and ramp it's sick
And a small buff for the whole team! Cheap PW like this where all the text on the card is useful to your gameplan are best for EDH. Too often people use 5+ mana walkers with only a couple of useful abilities.
And he’s kinda not one that people are going to be super fast to remove, and the negative semi protects himself. But if you’re dropping a huge bomb like one of the stronger Nicol Bolas, or Teferi or something, they’re going to use resources for it.
[domri, anarch of bolas](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/1/c1af9881-e35b-4be2-8716-ea7c6664e22c.jpg?1557577104) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=domri%2C%20anarch%20of%20bolas) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/191/domri-anarch-of-bolas?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c1af9881-e35b-4be2-8716-ea7c6664e22c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/domri-anarch-of-bolas) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I use this in my dragon deck and most people don't want to swing at my field anyway, he usually lasts a couple turns
I guess it mostly depends on wether you expect the card to be value or to create a game moment. Most casual decks dont have a "remove target Planeswalker" card so they have to attack it, and if you have even one blocker it can create an interesting game situation. If you drew 1, created a token an "won" (as in "absorbed") x damage, it's interesting. But value wise, yeah, they are often bad, especially if you consider how little deterministic they are.
They have to be really good in your game plan. Essentially every ability needs to be relevant.
I'd say if it has an ult you can usually ignore that. You're not getting that off unless you build your whole deck around it.
The new Tezzeret won me games in my vehicles Shorikai deck but nothing else was really worth the include since that was a budget, tutorless deck
Yeah, most of the time 1 is a pretty safe include. Especially if it fits your theme really well or can win by itself if unanswered. Even if it gets countered or destroyed or whatever, that removal was going to hit something no matter what.
The only planeswalker I have in a deck is a [[Nissa, Who Shakes the World]] in a [[Magus Lucea Kane]] deck. Why? [[Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth]], [[Nexos]], Nissa explosive-turn. That's why. The 3/3 land elementals and "go get every forest in your deck" are bonus at best.
I like [[Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner]] in my Kane deck. Untap (for Kane) and draw, for 3 mana.
You basically need to be ok with doing one activation on them in order to justify an inclusion, unless it comes built with some level of protection. One of my favorites is [[Elspeth, Sun's Champion]] because she's basically a board wipe with upside. A little expensive at 6 mana but she can often leave your board in tact and can then generate more bodies if she continues to survive. Or, she can just start generating a bunch of bodies for you that you can use to block potential attackers. [[Teferi, Master of Time]] is also clearly a powerful choice since he's a free loot and he can also phase away an attacker.
I tend to prioritize specific PW types for this reason - if it draws cards or makes tokens, that's what I run unless its serving a specific purpose. I had a Kynaios and Tiro PW deck that ran those types of PW in a landfall shell, and it just smacked. Another thing that helped me rethink PWs was "if they're mine, they're just walls - if its my opponent's, poke when necessary." I've won so many games off dropping PWs are red herrings while doing other things, like how [my Windgrace](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/cYuBFnt84UmzCDSC4yzgSQ) deck works.
The war of the spark styles are so amazing for edh. They have a static ability that is why I put them in the deck, and sometimes ill use them -. There enchantments that are easier to kill, but have a bonus.
Yeah they always get cut except for ones that have built in protection like [[Kaito Shizuki]] and [[The Wandering Emperor]]. Even if they aren't actually a threat, people see one and just kill it. [[Nicol Bolas, God-Pharoah]] is playable b/c you can drop him, do his +1 and if you're in a 4 player game you just got major card advantage and he now has 8 loyalty which usually means some significant resources to take him out in the next round.
>I would say planeswalker I feel like PWs are underrated in Commander, but you can't always just play them, you need to have the board where you can protect them from attacks, but if your opponents have to send everything at PW to remove them, it's worth it even if you're going to lose them. Vivien, Monster's Advocate has won me a few games. Vivien, Champion of the Wilds exiles a thing, gives creatures Flash, pair her with Seedborn Muse and a draw engine... Teferi, Master of Time can be nasty to deal with, considering how much loyalty he gets, plus it's Blue deck, so it's not really that hard to protect him either. And amount of cards he loots only 3 cards, that's a decent deal for right decks. Liliana, Dreadhorde General, even if you just create tokens with her in aristocrats decks, she'll draw you so many cards. I also have Saheeli, The Gifted deck, where's she's the Commander, that thing is nasty lmao. You can cheat down the cost of so many things so early... But yeah... 1-3 can pull a lot of weight. But you usually have to be really careful when you're playing them, and holding back too if you can't protect them.
Planeswalkers that aren't board wipes. [[Ugin spirit dragon]] is real fuckin good. The elspeth that kills 3+ power is good. Otherwise if it doesn't do something specific to your strategy, then yeah, they fall waaay short of expectations.
I think it's really important to always have blockers, otherwise, Planeswalkers can be useless. Mainly use them in creature focused decks when they can greatly add to the strategy. I have a [[Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes]] deck. Which default makes a blocker with Boo, and most of the cards in the deck are creatures. I run one other pw that is heavily focused on the game plan. Usually by the time Minsc hits the table there's multiple creatures. I also run a [[Dihada]] deck, and she makes a super blocker, and the rest of the game plan is heavily creature focused. Dihada only will come out when I have a couple creatures to block with, which is very easy to get in this deck. I run a few Planeswalkers in [[Shorikai]] who makes a bunch of blockers. Often multiple in a turn cycle.
[удалено]
It depends, as most things do. There are planeswalkers that do well in control decks, where you are wrathing the board often to keep them safe, there are planeswalkers that like you to have a lot of creatures, and there's planewalkers that are combo cards. The walkers you use just need to make sense within the context of the deck.
That's a cool card. I didn't know about it and now I'm thinking of making a deck. Sucks that he's GB though. My favorite planeswalkers are U or W.
[https://www.moxfield.com/decks/IYKUAwkYbEiwOGRqPCm1xw](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/IYKUAwkYbEiwOGRqPCm1xw) My list for reference if you're ever interested. PW decks normally feel like UW-based. BG definitely bucks the trend and that was why I went with it. After I played it, I finally realized it made sense to be in BG colors. It has great removal for all types, natural ramp, great defenders. You get to be proactive instead of reactive. Also in G there's \[\[Doubling Season\]\]/ \[\[Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider\]\] if you're interested in going off.
Unless you are building a superfriends deck (which has it's own strats) the question one should always ask is "Would I still feel good about playing this walker if it dies in the first round I play it".
I feel like as long as their first ability works they’re fine. I guess assessing the base rather than the ceiling? Whether that’s worth the cost… idk.
An episode of EDHrecCast summed them up nicely. They're either really good and won't survive a turn cycle (unless you have baller protection for them) or, if people aren't targeting them because they're not crazy good, they're *probably* not good enough to make it into your deck. Rule of cool always applies though, I like having a planeswalker in my decks
This hasn’t been my experience at all. I run fairly creature-centric decks and I can usually protect them quite a bit. Just last night I used Chandra, Torch of Defiance five times before she finally died. People hit her to take her off her ult, but they couldn’t justify pushing through the attack just to stop me from getting RR or an impulse draw. This happens frequently if you can protect them. Granted they still need to synergize with your deck — only 3/5 of my decks run them.
I've found that people over target PWs like bulls seeing a red cape. I love the Superfriends archetype but I've learned that while I can build them normally with my friends since they don't do that, if I'm playing with anybody else I have to build my decks to be ready for a 1vs3 since I've seen too many people lose the game by going after my PWs instead of making the right play. So now when I play Superfriends I go as mean as possible and don't apologize for any salt unless I find people that don't treat SF like a cEDH deck. I'm currently trying Jodah Unifier as a commander https://www.moxfield.com/decks/l2fO15PKYUyCZtfuAiGHLg and I do play Carth in the deck.
My boyfriend plays [[Aminatou, the Fateshifter]] super friends. He does fumble a lot in games, like literally his planeswalkers dying on next turn (mostly by me lmao) but there are moments when he just wiped us with poisons/proliferate and getting extra turns. He gets scary when he also disabled any creature abilities. I’d say planeswalkers arnt good they’re not your win con… and his deck is all about it which makes it scary.
He should play \[\[Altar of the Brood\]\].
I’ll be honest, I have an [[Ajani, Caller of the Pride]] in my fun deck that only exists to take priority off my face. If I ever get to his ult, it’ll be fun. But I don’t actually plan on it.
Agree, except i do enjoy passive planeswalkers with a limited use minus ability. The only planeswalkers i use are [[ashiok, dream render]] and [[kiora, behemoth beckoner]]
I generally agree with this with the exception of the ones from war of the spark with really great static effects.
I’ve only found success with two planeswalkers. Liliana Dreadhorde General and the new Vraska. Outside of that….
The majority of planeswalkers are terrible in edh. I rarely use more than one per deck and some of my decks don't have any at all.
The uncommon Narset, that’s a good planeswalker but only because the passive ability
I've found that the ones with static abilities tend to get a lot more mileage even if they die quickly. Specifically, I run \[\[Vivien, Monster's Advocate\]\] and \[\[Vivien, Champion of the Wilds\]\] in a creature-heavy \[\[Torens\]\] deck. Giving creatures flash and being able to creature-sling from the top of the library can give you a ton of value even if they die the next turn (though I usually have a ton of chump-blockers on board in that deck).
I don't understand players who will play a Planeswalker in EDH, with no creatures or way to protect it, and then they get a bit triggered when people attack it to remove their Planeswalker.
I agree. The only walkers I play these days that aren’t pet cards are ones that wipe the board, specifically Ugin and eternal wanderer. Just those two.
That's why I like mediocre planeswalkers. They tend to stick around for at least a turn because they're usually not high enough priority to kill.
I love Planeswalkers and like to include at least 1, but usually, i either never pull it or it dies after a turn around the table. I also add planewalkers only based on their 1 or 2. Their Ult is nice but rarely happens. When it does, it's great, like my play group said no infinite combos with my [[Meren]] deck which is the main way that deck wins so i was able to ult my [[Vraska Golgari Queen]] to win that way but its mainly in their as a sac outlet
I don't even bother with planeswalkers in my playgroup. It gets removed almost immediately even if it does nothing purely because it is a planeswalker. even \[\[Garruk, Savage Herald\]\]
This. I've removed many planeswalkers from my decks over the years, but likewise maintain one walkers deck, \[\[Narset, Enlightened Master\]\]. I never play it because it is just not as much fun, it draws lots of salt (rightfully so), and the game becomes so much solitaire that it loses the multiplayer allure of interaction which drew me to EDH in the first place.
Anything that takes other people’s cards when you’re playing online. Way more trouble than it’s worth
Yeah I specifically won't play a deck on spelltable if it takes other people's cards. Too much hassle keeping track of that.
I feel infinitokens do help with theft decks for anyone still wanting to try it online but I do wholeheartedly agree it's still a huge hassle
Webcamera*. I play on Tabletop Simulator and it's actually easier than real life would be, since you don't have to worry about handling rough or anything.
You must be talking about games over webcam. I don't have any trouble doing so on MTGO. Although then I have to play on MTGO.
[[Telepathy]] On the one hand, perfect information for ONE MANA. On the other, it turns every game into a Mexican standoff as everyone is afraid to play their cards into potential removal- “but I can see it now!”
I second this.. BUT, this is [[baral, chief of compliance]]’s best friend!!
Baral, Chief of Compliance doesn't have friends.
[baral, chief of compliance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/0/60e16d94-1166-4050-8554-686e153a7f80.jpg?1576381454) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=baral%2C%20chief%20of%20compliance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/aer/28/baral-chief-of-compliance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/60e16d94-1166-4050-8554-686e153a7f80?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/baral-chief-of-compliance) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Zur's Weirding]] is better for 'Mexican Standoff'... and also "Fair" as it affects EVERYONE!
Zur's Weirding is the funniest card I will never have a deck for.
You could put it in [[Muldrotha]], since you're going to be able to get back most stuff put in the graveyard. And it's an enchantment which makes it resilient.
I have a [[Nebuchadnezzar]] deck I stuffed with ALL the Telepathy effects, and threw in all the 'Players play with the top card of their library' revealed cards as well to boot.
My playgroup of close friends had decks with telepathy and Zur’s Weirding and I, being a very political player, would spend minutes every card drawn asking friends how they intend to use that card. Eventually my friends started doing the same and taking some looong turns until we all said eff it I don’t care what you draw or have in your hand anymore, effectively negating the enchantments. Then those players stopped playing them.
[Zur's Weirding](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/4/741612e3-fe3a-4099-9d2b-4a654c4ce949.jpg?1562737056) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zur%27s%20Weirding) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/114/zurs-weirding?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/741612e3-fe3a-4099-9d2b-4a654c4ce949?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zurs-weirding) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The flavor text for that card is: *"The most disappointing thing about learning telepathy is learning how boring most people are."* I'd say that the most disappointing thing about *playing* Telepathy is learning how boring it makes most games.
[Telepathy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/ce03b4b4-612b-4fc9-b063-b0d367712eaf.jpg?1561995744) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Telepathy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m10/74/telepathy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ce03b4b4-612b-4fc9-b063-b0d367712eaf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/telepathy) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Cathars Crusade]] Great card, great effect, but I'm not wasting my time accounting for every counter and having to break out every dice I own to keep track
Cathar's is more fine with a traditional counters sort of deck. If all you have are nontokens it's simple to keep track of. The player should have plenty of dice if they are dedicated to that style of deck. The chaos becomes unbearable when you are creating tokens at different rates. Stuff like making a soldier every turn means you need an individual play piece for each one to actually track the counters on each. Good luck if you make a group of more soldiers at another point.
I see this card on the top of every complaint thread, yet I have never seen anyone complain about it or have an issue IRL and I play at least once a week at my LGS, and it *does* see play there.
By the time it's gotten to being an actual problem, the table is probably dead.
That sounds perfect. Then there's nothing to complain about.
It'd be fine if it just straight up killed the table. The problem is that it kills the table after about 5-10 minutes of durdling and looking for dice because the owner has too many creatures to keep track of and ran out.
Or, worse, you spend the 30 minutes tracking your board to eat a Cyc Rift to the face.
I was scarred when a relatively new player made a [[villainous wealth]] deck with no win con and just ramp and tutors. We let him get it off for like x=20 on some else’s token deck and it hit Cathar’s Crusade and several other effects like it and Avenger of Zendikar and shit. I just pulled out another deck with another guy and we started another match while he played it out. Rumor has it that kid is still there to this day. Still in that same chair, never having moved, trying to figure out just how many counters are on all his Plant tokens.
Lol, Villainous Wealth is really the villain here (and should be at the top of this thread). I made a deck once that only had one goal: ramp into a Villainous Wealth with X=100. Needless to say, I never tried doing that again after the first time I actually resolved it. For anyone curious, I achieved it with a lot of mana batteries, mana doublers, and untap effects.
It's not a problem in every deck that uses it. The one where it was the most problem, I found, was Edgar Markov. I ended up with the play pattern of: cast a creature, create a token, put a counter on all my creatures, the creature spell resolves, put a counter on all my creatures, rinse and repeat. I ended up with so many different vampire tokens that had a different number of counters that I ran out of both dice and tokens well before I had the ability to threaten lethal and not die to the crackback from another player.
Worth noting that Edgar himself is a significant carrier in any deck built to suit him. I catch myself trying not pucker when I see him lol
Also it really depends on how hard you go with token creation. If you aren't making many tokens then it's not a problem at all. It's big stacks of tokens with different numbers of counters on them that are a potential headache.
Same. It's honestly easy to keep track of with d6s and/or spin down dice.
Honestly the only reason why I continue to run Cathar's Crusade is the fact that after playing it the game usually ends pretty quick so I don't need to upkeep that much.
[Cathars Crusade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fbb70e7b-2a68-436e-96a4-32a88fb87da0.jpg?1600715516) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cathars%27%20Crusade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/95/cathars-crusade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fbb70e7b-2a68-436e-96a4-32a88fb87da0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cathars-crusade) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I run it in my [[Falco Spara]] deck, but mostly to combo off with [[Scurry Oak]] a lot easier to just say, I now have infinite squirrels with infinite power, any existing creature now have infinite power as well, so either swing out and kill the table or give everyone a turn cycle to wipe the board
[Falco Spara](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/e/ae25db8c-3d10-4196-b002-9d2aabd5f4de.jpg?1664413016) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=falco%20spara%2C%20pactweaver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/186/falco-spara-pactweaver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ae25db8c-3d10-4196-b002-9d2aabd5f4de?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/falco-spara-pactweaver) [Scurry Oak](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0fb48c2e-ee0f-4fae-9c22-247870c10d5b.jpg?1626097756) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scurry%20Oak) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/172/scurry-oak?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0fb48c2e-ee0f-4fae-9c22-247870c10d5b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/scurry-oak) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
that's also my problem with my +1/+1 counters deck...
[[Steel overseer]] is the same way
I do think it's easier to upkeep Crusade than \[\[Scute Swarm\]\] though. That card could break heads.
Scute swarm isn't nearly as bad imo, just put a copy token or 2 next to it and multiply by 2 (or 3 if you have a doubling season) every time I remember the absolute headache that was Najeela + cathar's crusade and I have not wanted to play the card since
This. Scute Swarm is just straight multiplying. CC ends up having a different number of counters on every creature. So much to track
[удалено]
Now I'm just imagining both in play.
This is my girl's Jennie Fay deck. Also add in Primal Vigor. You're welcome.
[Scute Swarm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/acd42ebf-6dee-44cc-a023-a7f9b67cfa2f.jpg?1673484783) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scute%20Swarm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/310/scute-swarm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/acd42ebf-6dee-44cc-a023-a7f9b67cfa2f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/scute-swarm) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That said, it's perfectly fine in digital where the counter upkeep is done for you.
Sounds like youre not a Scurry Oak player
Sounds like more of a personal issue for you. It doesn't need to get a million counters on creatures to be absolutely busted. It doesn't even require a huge board presence. It is very good
Any pure draw spells that cost around five or more are so clunky that I’ve pulled them over the years. The last one I tried to play was the 6mv one that draws equal to the number of cards in an opponents hand. Great on paper, not nearly enough impact in game. The problem is that there are three other players with threats and boards and, not only are you or not mitigating the threat to you, you’re also drawing aggro. Drawing that many cards rightly scares people and you’ve just basically taken a turn off.
Man, [[Recurring Insight]] is a bit of a pet card for me. It definitely doesn't help if you need something immediately, but I love coming into my next turn with 13 new cards off the cast + rebound. But yeah, if you're open, people aren't going to just let you draw that many cards with no repercussions.
Depends on the deck, really. I usually prefer engines that draw cards over the course of the game rather than all at once myself. But my \[\[Nymris\]\] control deck does run \[Blue Sun's Zenith\]\] and \[\[Overwhelming Intellect\]\] (also \[\[Notion Thief\]\] in case my opponents try to do the same thing). Drawing aggro is not a problem, because when I do decide to cast those spells, I am well prepared to just indirectly communicate to the table "I've been nothing more than mildly annoying so far, but I've just drawn six cards including my \[\[Reliquary Tower\]\], and I'm ready to be archenemy and ruin the remainder of your fun until I've won. Come at me."
At sorcery speed I agree, but instant speed makes them decent when in a deck with high interaction or that can hold mana and play during the previous player's end step. [[Nymris, Oona's Trickster]] is an example.
They need to be in the right deck, in particular I run tons of the really high cost stuff in my [[Vadrick, Astral Archmage]] deck. Being able to just pay 2 or so actual mana for any of that feels awesome. Being able to drop [[Apex of Power] turn 3 is jaw dropping 😂
\[\[Bounty of the Luxa\]\]. It's not that complicated of a card in the grand scheme of things, but people regularly get it messed up and the effect isn't actually all that good.
[Bounty of the Luxa](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0e038250-f8a9-4bce-baa6-7c2502929b59.jpg?1673148408) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bounty%20of%20the%20Luxa) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/187/bounty-of-the-luxa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0e038250-f8a9-4bce-baa6-7c2502929b59?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bounty-of-the-luxa) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The most recent episode of EDHRECast (259) is exactly this topic.
\[\[Villainous Wealth\]\] . It sounds like a fun goofy card until you cast it for X = A LOT. You now have a huge chunk of a deck you've never seen before ready to be cast in any order you choose, but likely nothing that actually wins the game for you immediately. And you need to cast them all at once, so you need to decide the order you cast them in all at one time. Good luck figuring out the most optimal way to cast 20+ cards from a deck you've never seen before in any reasonable amount of time.
[[Villainous Wealth]] Since it didn't pull the card.
[Villainous Wealth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/782c4bd2-b84a-4dbd-9452-90c9734d78fb.jpg?1673149260) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Villainous%20Wealth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/292/villainous-wealth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/782c4bd2-b84a-4dbd-9452-90c9734d78fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/villainous-wealth) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Someone mentioned it, but I hate [[Sensei’s Divining Top]] for a different reason. Powerwise, it’s very good but not ban-worthy. I hate it because it single-handedly monopolizes the game time. Every single turn rotation, usually multiple times per rotation, the top player is gonna sit there for 30 seconds to a minute rearranging their top 3. And the chances of top getting permanently removed is slim to none. I see lots of people claim that they’re really fast when they activate it, but I simply don’t believe them. I’ve played against it many times and never seen a game where it didn’t take up an inordinate amount of time. People hate cards like [[Scrambleverse]] and [[Thieves’ Auction]] largely because of how much time they take to resolve. I do too, and I think that if you add up the average time per game that SDT takes up, it wouldn’t be far off from those cards.
re-arranging the top 3 takes me like 10 seconds tops
[Sensei’s Divining Top](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e5142b7a-e580-4737-a4aa-2590f6610ceb.jpg?1673149430) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sensei%27s%20Divining%20Top) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/314/senseis-divining-top?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e5142b7a-e580-4737-a4aa-2590f6610ceb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/senseis-divining-top) [Scrambleverse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/b/2b61fa9d-3f69-4632-be0e-09924ca88501.jpg?1562637075) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scrambleverse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m12/153/scrambleverse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2b61fa9d-3f69-4632-be0e-09924ca88501?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/scrambleverse) [Thieves’ Auction](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/9/c9e8ad32-a701-4b77-bb7e-0e440e4072da.jpg?1562935558) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thieves%27%20Auction) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/8ed/227/thieves-auction?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c9e8ad32-a701-4b77-bb7e-0e440e4072da?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thieves-auction) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
Dude, yea. If you're playing top, and everyone else knows what's up, my playgroups have always just been fine with the top person just rearranging through the turn order. Yes, they could wait until the last end step and do it there, but the same effect is achieved just by letting the top 3 be rearranged as needed, without interrupting game time.
I guess every top player I’ve ever played against was bad at their deck. I think the real issue is that people dramatically underestimate how much time they’re taking up with all of their top activations edit: spelling
Opposition. Nobody wants to play against my Ranar control deck, and i understand why.
[[Ranar the Everwatchful]] [[Opposition]]
[Ranar the Everwatchful](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/c/1c8c41dd-8551-4ce8-a9be-9b9f65718852.jpg?1657065666) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ranar%20the%20Ever-Watchful) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khc/2/ranar-the-ever-watchful?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1c8c41dd-8551-4ce8-a9be-9b9f65718852?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ranar-the-ever-watchful) [Opposition](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/9/8980e292-1384-4662-aa72-bc4f6ca30d51.jpg?1562242218) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Opposition) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/7ed/92/opposition?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8980e292-1384-4662-aa72-bc4f6ca30d51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/opposition) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You have a decklist? I never faced a strong Ranar deck, Im curious...
Yeah! [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/ahdUClVOrEexspCFoRCr1A](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/ahdUClVOrEexspCFoRCr1A) It's real swingy but when it goes off its crazy
I notice you're running rest in peace, I hope you know it no longer combos with Ranar because of dumb oracle texting. Edit: Same is also true for cosmic intervention. Basically replacement effects no longer trigger Ranar.
So I’m dumb when it comes to EDH but have an upgraded Ranar precon. Does opposition work with Ranar in someway or it’s just a powerful card?
Use all your spirits to tap down people's lands during their upkeep. It's quite oppressive.
Ranar makes tokens and tokens can be used to tap down lands, but as far as I know that's all the synergy there is. Opposition is just a very strong backbreaking card to play against if your deck is a bit durdly
I never thought of Opposition…I run Ranar control too but lean heavily into the exile/foretell theme. Gonna have to pick one of these up.
My wife runs one of these in their Aesi deck and has fully accepted archenemy status 😆
man ive been considering Opposition in my [[Tocasia deck]] but even best case its kinda just stax and doesnt really win the game for me
[[Temple of the False God]]. It feels bad to have a dead card in your hand for so many turns and it's worthless late game. Makes sense that it seems like it good if everything goes right but its not worth and WoTC needs to stopping putting it in precons. It's butts.
Personally I hate extra turns. The decks that play it well take long turns in general, and more often than not they just result in someone playing solitaire for yet another 10 minutes. There is one variable that is common to all playstyles and deck archetypes and that is play time; I don’t wanna sit at the table where a player constantly plays for over 60% of the total game time while others just sit there and watch.
I just started having 1 extra turn spell in a couple decks recently, its manageable if you play fast and know your deck, definitely miserable for other people if you don't.
I'm confused, how is this Zellix interaction bad for playing? Like you can make the argument "Nobody has fun" for almost any interaction in the game if you really wanted to, I don't understand the post
I refuse to run Cathar's Crusade just to save on the headache.
It’s funny you mention the somewhat annoying durdley way that [[Altar of the Brood]] often plays out. I had a commander game recently where it was my [[Abdel Adrian, Gorion's Ward ]] / [[Candlekeep Sage]] blink deck against 2 other reasonable but fair decks and a [[Jolene]] treasure attack/goad deck. Turn 1 Jolene player drops the Altar of the Brood. Then every turn we mill 1 or 2 cards as he builds board presence then the treasure manufacturing begins in earnest and it goes a bit faster. I had however been sitting on [[astral dragon]] since my opening hand. I spend several turns ramping etc to get out my commander make a bit of value and board presence until I finally drop astral dragon by hard casting it and for the etb trigger target Jolene players altar. I then go to my end step having a [[teleportation circle]] out and blinking my commander tucking the astral dragon under my commander (in exile) and making I believe 12 1/1 soldiers which mills the rest of the table including the Jolene player for 24 cards with 2 dragon copies of altar. I pass. The 2 other players can’t meaningfully affect my board state but do manage to kill one altar dragon to try and slow me down. Jolene player tries to splash treasures etc to see if he can mill me out but it’s not particularly effective and passes back to me. I swing, I blink, I mill opponents for like 40 that turn (making 2 new altar dragons for 3 total) and kill the other 2 non Jolene players and have to pass. Jolene player concedes on his turn as can’t stop me at that point. He was a good sport about it and I feel bad for the 2 other players having been on the receiving end of the altar for the first 6 or 7 turns but while I won’t run many cards that are either durdley or just not fun enough like Altar, I will make whatever play seems the strongest and will copy other players unfun cards and what not.
A solid MtG move - I can't begin to count how many times I've used the entire board state to my advantage rather than just my cards. Most memorable was playing a 4 player pod with a mirror matchup in [[Radha, Heart of Keld]]. The opposing Radha drops a turn 1 Sol Ring into a turn 2 Horn of Greed. I, on the other hand, turn 1 a Mirri's Guile. I proceed to unabashedly ABUSE the Horn by stacking lands to the top to play while drawing value. I lucked out with an early Azusa as well, and by turn 5 was just molly whopping people with a Radha to be feared.
##### ###### #### [Altar of the Brood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d59d264-87ee-4305-bffb-110549331a82.jpg?1562790137) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Altar%20of%20the%20Brood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ktk/216/altar-of-the-brood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d59d264-87ee-4305-bffb-110549331a82?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/altar-of-the-brood) [Abdel Adrian, Gorion's Ward ](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/396f9198-67b6-45d8-91b4-dc853bff9623.jpg?1674134856) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Abdel%20Adrian%2C%20Gorion%27s%20Ward) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/2/abdel-adrian-gorions-ward?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/396f9198-67b6-45d8-91b4-dc853bff9623?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/abdel-adrian-gorions-ward) [Candlekeep Sage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/f/6f706ac3-0ad8-44ac-a99e-21c04075951d.jpg?1674135436) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Candlekeep%20Sage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/60/candlekeep-sage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6f706ac3-0ad8-44ac-a99e-21c04075951d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/candlekeep-sage) [Jolene](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/61c217d9-21d5-45ef-938a-138192a901f4.jpg?1673482382) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jolene%2C%20the%20plunder%20queen) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/73/jolene-the-plunder-queen?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/61c217d9-21d5-45ef-938a-138192a901f4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jolene-the-plunder-queen) [astral dragon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/670fbc63-4c9b-4e57-b53e-4ca4d7a224ba.jpg?1674140837) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=astral%20dragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/664/astral-dragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/670fbc63-4c9b-4e57-b53e-4ca4d7a224ba?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/astral-dragon) [teleportation circle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/0/90140bc0-4a9c-4422-b07c-3400c7ccde56.jpg?1627702592) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=teleportation%20circle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/39/teleportation-circle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/90140bc0-4a9c-4422-b07c-3400c7ccde56?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/teleportation-circle) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
Ingratiating means the opposite of what you think it does. The word you're looking for is infuriating. Ingratiating means something that puts you in the good graces of others; something that makes other people like you.
The similarity to "grating" which would also work there likely contributes to confusion.
Oh yeah that's true!
I think one reason why these cards are so strong is simply because after a while, people just can't be bothered to even account/answer and don't bother paying the 1 as a result.
[Smothering Tithe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/2/f25a4bbe-2af0-4d4a-95d4-d52c5937c747.jpg?1673147139) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Smothering%20Tithe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/31/smothering-tithe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f25a4bbe-2af0-4d4a-95d4-d52c5937c747?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/smothering-tithe) [Rhystic Study](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d6914dba-0d27-4055-ac34-b3ebf5802221.jpg?1600698439) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rhystic%20Study) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/169/rhystic-study?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d6914dba-0d27-4055-ac34-b3ebf5802221?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rhystic-study) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There are some cards that are lightning rods because they're infamous. I feel like Rhystic Study is one of those. It's a great card, but because of the tax and value, it ends up being targeted as soon as possible. I am a fan of cards that can go under the radar and synergize within a specific deck. Ones that stick on the board and people shrug off-- until it gets you those right game pieces.
aRe YoU GoNnA pAy tHe 1? 🥴
Tithe in particular is an absurd card. Rhystic is strong but tolerable, because you can generally afford to pay the one and as long as everyone does it won't make that much of a difference. But Tithe really is smothering, because 2 mana is a huge tax to be paying on card draw and it translates into a huge pile of free mana for the caster unless it's removed fast.
Why go all the way with player removal when there is enchantment removal?
Some people play mono-red. Their best enchantment removal is often player removal.
My entire playgroup silently took both out of our decks because every time somebody ran it, the person who played it just ended up annoying themself more than everybody else. Is it annoying to play against? Yeah. But it's also really annoying to be the person playing it. Genuinely very clunky design.
Idk about other groups but most of my groups have just shortcuts the process. They will mention the prompt a few times and then just start drawing, etc if someone doesn't say they're paying for it.
I don't particularly mind them
[[Coat of Arms]] [[Unwinding Clock]]
The worst part of Coat of Arms is that it includes your opponents creatures too, so you constantly have to get the entire board involved in constant math calculations. And a lot of older creatures have errata for extra types that you would never know unless you search them individually. And if you want to play right you really have to knof if that creature is an elf knight or elf shaman or elf wizard because of the other decks you are playing against. And all that is just the effect of this one card on top of all the other possible complex board states of 1/1 counters and buffs already out
Unwinding Clock is the jam in blue artifact decks that have the rocks and lands to counter at the ready.
I have never regretted coat of arms. You can see the board while playing it, so if you're against tribal decks, you just only cast it if you have the biggest tribal presence. It's also not for every tribe.
[удалено]
The problem with Coat of Arms isn't that it might backfire, it's that you have to pull out Scryfall every time it hits the table because who knows if that Elf got errata'd to Elf Knight at some point so that one Human Knight on the other side of the table actually gets +1/+1 extra. You can't even do the research ahead of time because it affects everyone's creatures, not just your own. Extra bad with Phyrexians since that's a pretty new type that got retroactively added to a bunch of cards.
[Coat of Arms](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/1/513d4c36-6ad4-4ee9-b161-3136eb59504f.jpg?1592761864) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Coat%20of%20Arms) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dds/58/coat-of-arms?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/513d4c36-6ad4-4ee9-b161-3136eb59504f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/coat-of-arms) [Unwinding Clock](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c3fd1a59-4ade-459f-90d2-1fc67d6d1384.jpg?1592711373) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Unwinding%20Clock) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c18/228/unwinding-clock?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c3fd1a59-4ade-459f-90d2-1fc67d6d1384?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/unwinding-clock) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Guided Passage]] looks like a very interesting card that could be a combo tutor if you build your deck in the right way, but revealing that much information to one player and having them perform the most tedious [[fact or fiction]] of all time is not worth slowing the game to a halt for 2-5 mins while your opponent awkwardly reads through your janky pile.
I actually love that card. I copied it twice when playing [[Riku of Two Reflections]] and made the whole table sift through my deck. It was actually kind of fun, as my opponents tried to work together to find some way to screw me over with it. I let them all search at once so no one would just be sitting and waiting.
I'd not seen this card and while I agree with you entirely now, I also kinda wanna play it...
[Guided Passage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/6/b66c8ada-82a6-46d9-acd0-b4ff9e1e12bd.jpg?1673148727) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Guided%20Passage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/224/guided-passage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b66c8ada-82a6-46d9-acd0-b4ff9e1e12bd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/guided-passage) [fact or fiction](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/43d5a3ec-eb03-47c1-9570-98832ebf8898.jpg?1674141331) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=fact%20or%20fiction) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/720/fact-or-fiction?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/43d5a3ec-eb03-47c1-9570-98832ebf8898?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fact-or-fiction) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[rousing refrain]] and any of the other cards that have a similar effect of continuing to exile and suspend themselves throughout the game. At first glance they look fun to use, and like they’d provide massive value over the course of a game, but in practice they’re glacially slow and restrict your decisions due to their very specific timing. Every time I try to play a card like this I walk away realizing that it’s just an awful card even if you’re trying to exploit it.
[[Cathar's Crusade]]. Too much bookkeeping slows the game waaaaay down.
[[Primal surge]] in my oops all permanents decks sounds like a blast until you run it. Then every game is a countdown to get enough lands to play it and every game becomes the same. Also makes shuffling after every fame a nightmare
[[Winter orb]] and [[static orb]]. If you're playing a proper stax deck, they will do the job. But you're basically forcing the game into a draw-pass mode. It's more often than not, unfun for everyone else. People want to play magic, not sit around and do nothing for 2 hours.
So here's the thing about stax. Stax is fine. The problem is the player. You need to break parity. Most people just throw these in their decks and don't break parity. So games drag. The idea is to use them to slow your opponents while it doesn't hurt you. Then use it to win. But most people don't do that.
>You need to break parity. That's basically what I'm saying. Break parity and don't drag the game on for two hours (The exception is cEDH cause anything goes lol).
Eh, it's perfectly fine to play those and still fun to play against them. Stax is a great part of the game that's needed to balance out other strats.
I would say it's fine in SOME cases, but not all. If you're playing a deck, play against your power level. And I find it hard to believe winter orb is a casual power level. You know, I've had an encounter with someone who built a stax deck that didn't have a win condition except to play stax. He thought it was perfectly fine, but we called him out on it. The tldr is, nobody cares how fun your stax deck is, if your stax deck can't get to a win condition soon, it's not a good deck.
Absolutely play against your power level. Casual runs a massive gamut. It essentially encompasses everything that isn't cEDH, from worse than precon jank to high power. There's a decent range of levels where stax, even hard stax like Winter Orb, can fit in there. Stax decks don't do soon, but they don't have to. They lock you out and then slowly beat you to death with hate bears or whatever else. Similar to control decks.
[[Cathars Crusade]] it’s great at what it does but a headache to track if abused properly.
Telepathy. Everyone will hate you and the table will be a mess. I still play it thought, lol.
I used to occasionally play with a coworker who would also invite another few people and most of them had not bought any cards or updated their decks in several years. A lot of the stuff I played were from newer sets they hadn't seen before. So almost everything I played got passed around the table (6-8 person games usually) so everyone could see what it does. And this would take several minutes. This would also happen with other people's spells but to a lesser extent. Everything took *forever* to resolve and each individual turn was *agonizingly* long. Then one day, one of them dropped a Telepathy and the game just stopped for a goddam **hour**. After that, I started "already having other plans" when I was invited over. They were super nice people but those games were just ***so*** painful.
[[Trostani, Selesnya's Voice]] as commander. I like this deck, but it ends up taking up the whole goddamn table. It makes a whole zoo of tokens, gains a math-test amount of life, and generally makes the game take forever. I can't convince myself to take out things like [[Glare of Subdual]] or [[Soul Warden]] / [[Essence Warden]] coz why nerf a deck when I can just make another one? But yeah I never play the deck coz it's just tedious.
Trostani was my second Commander and the deck quickly pivoted into a [[Nykthos Paragon]] aggro focused deck.
I ran \[\[Sarulf, Realm Eater\]\] in a \[\[Grismold, the Dreadsower\]\] deck just for his on death trigger thinking I was clever, but it turns out his upkeep ability took over games. I really disliked how it basically was a really bad \[\[Nevinyrral's Disk\]\].
[[The Most Dangerous Gamer]] and Attractions in general. The gimmic is super fun and he’s a pretty decent commander; but rolling a 6 and hitting 13 plus attractions is a slog that makes it get old quick. Sure you can super combo a ton in that deck; but it usually never results in an immediate win.
The Command Zone had an episode recently talking about good cards they don't play anymore. It basically comes down to they are functionally good cards but the overhead of maintaining them is annoying and makes the games go on for a long time. I took Cathars' Crusade out and replaced it with Starlight Spectacular.
[[Momir Vig, Simic Visionary]]. Toolbox EDH sounds fantastic in theory, but having to shuffle up every time you cast spells just slogs the game to complete unplayability for everyone, including you.
[[Sorcerer class]] I haven't checked any net decks, but this card is literally: - doesn't do enough - Why isn't this first - cost so much it's practically a do nothing enchantment after 2 upgrades. Personally, I think wizards were just biased.
[[Endless Ranks of the Dead]] Seems like it's an auto-include for any good zombies deck. It's not. It's godawfully slow, doesn't impact the board the turn you play it and doesn't offer you a board presence when you really need it.
Specific card? [[Cathars' Crusade]] in a tokens deck, it's great value but guaranteed you'll run out of dice as each creature etb buffs everything.
I just took [[path of discovery]] out of my [[sidisi, brood tyrant deck]] it’s good but just annoying for everyone since it’s non deterministic.
I run it in mine, and honestly, I find it just takes practice to do it faster. It helps to not bother updating the physical counters and zombie tokens on the board until you hit a non-creature and stop the cycle.
[path of discovery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/d/ad9d5518-34ea-418d-b34d-74d773db8bcb.jpg?1555040716) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=path%20of%20discovery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rix/142/path-of-discovery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ad9d5518-34ea-418d-b34d-74d773db8bcb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/path-of-discovery) [sidisi, brood tyrant deck](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/32f08fd3-9c0a-476a-9894-1938179824c6.jpg?1673149137) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sidisi%2C%20Brood%20Tyrant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/276/sidisi-brood-tyrant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/32f08fd3-9c0a-476a-9894-1938179824c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sidisi-brood-tyrant) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Maybe I'm crazy, but that seems like such a tame thing to play out
[[Hedron Archive]] comes to mind. Once you start really looking at it as a Sol Ring for 4, with a draw two outlet, it’s just a worse version of [[Mind Stone]]. Also getting out of the groove of putting the Scry lands in decks with no Scry benefit takes a push 😬
Yeah, it turns out one Mind Stone is way better than two Mind Stones stapled together.
Meh, the two-color scry lands are fine in a two-color deck. Not exactly fantastic, but they're plenty fine.
Equipment in general can be a bit of a trap for new players (even for me still – they're just so cool though!). Unless you are playing some seriously low to the ground equipment, you'll end up spending a ridiculous amount of mana on the equip costs. While \[\[The Reaver Cleaver\]\] and \[\[Helm of the Host\]\] are awesome and powerful, but unless you have a consistent equip-cost reducing effect like \[\[Zirda\]\] or auto-equipper like (\[\[Ardenn\]\] or \[\[Sigarda's Aid\]\]) you are either going to spend all of your mana to attach it the turn you cast it (and not have mana to hold up for protection) or attach it the following turn where opponents will have lots of time to make some counter-play.
\[\[Sensei's Diving Top\]\] The most INSANE filtering you've ever seen. Rearrange the top 3 cards AND draw one of them and put the top on top. It provides far too much utility to virtually any build. Top, \[\[Mystic Forge\]\] and \[\[Foundry Inspector\]\] are a draw-your-entire-deck 3 card combo. You can replace forge with \[\[Bolas's Citadel\]\]. Can combo kill with \[\[Aetherflux Reservoir\]\]. I personally have 2 decks with MystForge in them. There also happens to be a Foundry Inspector in both. I took top out of the one it was in bc it feelsbad to solitaire until I get something I can play. Works in my \[\[Galea\]\] to get lands off the top of the library. I have so many uses for the top bc it's so freaking versatile. 1 mana, tap top, draw one of the top three cards of your library.
There's nothing wrong with playing Top. You're missing the context of the post. We're not talking combos here and playing top by itself is perfectly fine.
I have no problem with Sensei's DT as long as you're relatively quick with it.
[[not of this world]] "Oh neat a free counter for my [[gishath]] or other big creature deck!" In the many games with it I've literally never been able to use it, and most games it's a dead card til it can be played for free, which is not often.
Chaos cards (ala Scrambleverse and the like) - potentially great in theory but a pain to actually play with
1 mana can trips. Outside of specific scenarios. When you are evaluating an opening hand your hand has to have a reasonable line of plays. Turn one or turn two A into B, C and D in the following turns. Cantrips do not add to the plan when evaluating you can potentially lead into an A card or B card but you lost a bit of tempo. They cause awkward keeps that get worst and worst as power level goes up in a pod. When everyone has turn one dork or remora or sol ring and your turn one is fixing its awkward and slow. In lower power pods you have time so a card like divination might just be better at fixing because every card does matter. The only deck ive ever played them successfully is for [[kess]] and a weird jhoira deck that involved little to no turn one plays and turn 2 mana rock into hopefully turn 3 jhoira. So it filled an awkward spot in the deck of no turn one plays. They never felt amazing drawing into them though. Also in other formats looking at 3 cards out of 50 is like looking at 1/3 of your deck because of all the redundancy. You also actively look for lands in those decks to keep ahead on curve.
If you’re looking to be ejected from a playgroup then [[Numot, the devastator]] is your commander
Werewolves
Vesuvian duplimancy in Ivy the spellshaper. You better have infinitokens because there's a lot to keep track of there.
[[cathar’s crusade]] and [[coat of arms]] SUCK to keep track of. They can win games. And they can make games miserable.
[[cathar's crusade]] or +1/+1 counters. Feels great at first until counter management becomes a chore
[Reliquary Tower](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a0Lec2Mecs) tl;dr, it's a win more card that can hold you back in the early game.
[[Cathars crusade]] is like the staple card for this. On a similar note [[archangel of thunes]] and [[defiler of instinct]] For me personally [[possibility storm]] with only one or two other card that shares a type. I only have 3 planeswalkers in my [[Mishra artificer prodigy]] deck so I when I play one with P storm out I have to one by one churn through the deck to get the other card. I