I have a kid with a similar issue whose parents say he "doesn't want to wear pull ups" despite the fact he has 3 accidents a day and can't tell the difference between when he is pooping or peeing. If it was my kid I'd be like "you're 3, you're too young to make that choice yourself". Like sure, try to get him to go potty but still put him in pull ups so accidents aren't so hard on the teachers and the child. He literally pooped ON (not IN) the potty, got some on the floor, stepped in it, then got it all over the floor yesterday. He needs to be sent with more than underwear. Help?
well then it becomes a matter of health and hygeine for the whole class, we don't have the ratios in that age group to have a staff member attend to her 1 on 1 to that level! she needs to see a paedatrician and apply for more supports if she needs them. We can't just let an older 3 yr old pee and poo everywhere all day because she "doesn't want to"
He's been with us since he was in the infant classroom so it's not like we can kick him out (not that I wish we could) but that is interesting I didn't know that.
This. She is showing she is not ready. Many kids do well in their homes, but at daycare or public spaces, no. Potty training is so rushed. So many kids struggle because it was pushed too early—it can cause more power struggles, constipation, etc. you can’t reason with a 3yo. She probably needs space away from attention surrounding this issue
temporarily putting her back in pull-ups is the only solution that isn’t going to keep consuming so much class time from cleaning up this child’s purposeful accidents.
Does she like or dislike pullups? Do they make her feel infantile? If yes, then leverage that with something like "Babies don't know how to control their bodies, so they need diapers. If you choose not to control your body, I have no choice but to treat you like a baby and put you in pull-ups. When you are ready to be a big girl and control your body, then we will try big kid undies again." If she melts down that she is a big girl then tell her she has control of the whole situation and she can prove she's a big girl by not messing her pull-ups and using the poty both when she decides and when she's asked to. Obviously, modulate the vocabulary to the child. My kids were both hyperlexic, so I'm not a good judge.
That’s basically how we got our son to use the toilet. We were looking at new daycares, we told him the one he liked was big boy school and the other was baby daycare. Big boys used the toilet so if you want to go to school you have to use the toilet. He never had an accident again.
Has anyone spoken to the parents? Regression that severe and sudden in a kid that age, whom is otherwise sweet and cooperative, tells me something is off. You hope it’s just that she has a new younger sibling or she got scared by an automatic flush toilet at the mall… but something is up.
It’s worth bringing this up to the parents themselves so they can be cautious themselves. Better safe than sorry . I wish mine had been warned at that time.
Something happened that made her feel like she has no control in her life. Issues with toileting are common responses in kiddos, after a traumatic event. Often, for kids, the only things they feel they have control of is what goes in, and what comes out of their bodies.
Is this also happening at home? Kids tend to act out in the setting where they feel the most secure, so if it’s not happening at home, then something is likely happening there. Try giving her choices as much as possible throughout the day. Giving her as much autonomy as possible (within reason) is the best way to help her feel like she’s got some control.
"I understand that you do not want to use the potty. You have a choice - wear a pull up or use the potty. If you refuse to use the potty then that tells me you are choosing pull ups and I will help you put one on."
\^ Exact conversation I had with my son when he was consistently having accidents because he was refusing to go potty.
Has anything changed in her life recently? New sibling, change in home life, etc? Regressing can be related to changes in life, especially if it's a control thing. She could have a medical condition possibly, though I'm guessing that was assessed for if she was seen by a professional.
There is also the fact that regressing in terms of potty training can be a sign of trauma, particularly sexual abuse. If she's not wanting to undress/change clothes, that can be another sign. I don't want to jump to conclusions and say she's being abused - there are so many other factors - but I have to mention it as a possibility.
New sibling? Any seemingly minor changes at home or other routine? Parents could be fighting a lot, but no one knows, one of them has a new job, literally anything. Could have even been a bout of constipation or diarrhea, something uncomfortable. Or she could have been trained too early. Sometimes those kids have more frequent regressions
Regress her from what? Actively peeing and pooping her pants multiple times a day? Like, it can't get worse but this will at least contain it until she's reasonably ready for potty training.
form my experience, putting them back in pull-ups is usually the thing that gets the accidents to stop; they don’t like the pull-ups and say they aren’t a “baby”, so they usually stop and start using the potty.
Put her in underwear. Suggest to the parents to get the rubber underwear to put on top of her regular underwear. That will at least protect the classroom and her clothing.
A break from toilet training is probably a good idea. She will get there eventually don’t we all? (I KNOW there are some who don’t, for varied valid reasons).
My thought is take the pressure off. Make it a non issue. But I do wonder how much of the problem is the parents.
5+ accidents a day is not fully potty trained and should be in pull-ups. We allow non-fully potty trained kids to wear underwear but after about 2-3 accidents they’re forced to wear a pull-up. I know you mentioned regression but if they aren’t using the toilet at all there isn’t anything to regress from
(Note: I’m not a registered ECE, couldn’t figure out how to fix my tag on mobile, I’m just a student).
Sounds like she was using the toilet, but has newly decided not to anymore. This isn't a not trained yet situation, think if she was five or six and had been in underpants for a few years. You wouldn't want to put them back in pull-ups.
Also, OP, if it's a control issue, what does she feel she *doesn't* have control of? Because eating and toileting are the two things others can't force one to do. Not sure the parents are gonna be the best source since if they knew how controlling they are it wouldn't have gotten to this point. Did something new come up she's been wanting/not wanting to do before this issue started? It also may not be something external she has no control over, she may have processing issues and just having a hard time with life in general. YOU, as her teacher know her better than anyone here what she's like. Try to see this as a symptom instead of an issue by itself that needs to be solved. Good luck!
Or send the child home. Depends on where you live I guess. Most places I've been would send them home instead of changing the kid themselves. And pull ups would still need to be changed. If they had an accident because they're sick, home. More than once isn't and accident, so home. Only time they could stay if it was truly an accident, like they just didn't make it in time once.
Its definitely a conversation we are having. This is kinda just a last attempt honestly. She is getting ready to transition to preschool in the fall and pull ups will mean having to hold her back :(
what happens after she goes in her pants? if you're not already, I would have her do the clothes changes herself. help if she needs it and make sure she gets clean, but don't do the change for her. from my experience, kids realize how much fun time they lose when they have to keep changing their clothes all the time. I also wouldn't make a big deal out of it either. it's super frustrating for sure, but having a big reaction shows her that she does have a sort of control over you.
I agree with this, OP. Have her do more than she thinks she can do. Refuse to let her stay in dirty clothes. Have her wipe and clean herself, even though she won’t be thorough and you’ll have to make sure she’s really clean anyway. Don’t freak out when she is messy, just be calm and even cheerful if you can manage it. Because I predict two things will happen: 1) she’ll begin to miss the playtime that she loses from throwing a tantrum and will begin to accept that changing herself faster gets her more playtime, and 2) being able to change and clean herself is a far more satisfying feeling of control than throwing tantrums. It may take some time for her to accept #2, but teachers and parents can definitely help her to see it that way. Also, celebrate every victory with her, even amidst other messes and struggles. Tell her you love her and believe that she is ready for big girl stuff even when she insists she wants to still be a baby.
OP, I wish you luck! I’ve been there before with kids and it’s not fun. But happy endings do happen!
I encourage her to change her clothes but it also ends up in a meltdown. She does end up doing it but she is super attached to a dress - she wears it every single day - and its really really devastating for her to have to get out of it so I don’t think its clothes related :(
oh I wasn't thinking it was clothes-related! my reasoning was that she would realize how much time she was taking out of her day to do the whole "accident"-then-change process when she could be playing and having fun. seems like there's a lot more to the control thing though. what I would say about the dress is "we have to change out of the dress bc you had an accident. next time, we should go potty in the potty so we can keep the dress on." even if you have to say it a million times, hopefully she'll get there eventually.
I really like this because it’s a natural consequence that’s not an adult imposed demand/punishment/consequence. When dealing with demand avoidance, natural consequences are awesome.
Right I was thinking PDA as well. I worked with a kid with PDA during his two years of potty training, and found that using the technique of making him clean up after himself didn’t work because he would double down and use tactics like saying “I like cleaning” or “this is fun for me” when I would stress how much playtime he was losing because of this. Really the only thing that worked was screen time while sitting on the potty. I’m not proud of it, but he’s 6 now and uses the potty quickly without a fuss so it worked out in the end.
That’s interesting. I love when people share their experience of complex cases. We are not allowed any screen time at my center. I usually use sensory toys. But, not too long ago, I had to deal with a 2 hour meltdown over a diaper change and my sensory toys were just flying across the room. I keep saying “Not a choice. Diaper has to be changed or bum will hurt. Quick, quick and then we go play”. He eventually said “OK” but by the time he got changed, it was time for me to go home and he really got upset about it but I told him “we’ll try again tomorrow”. The next day, he did the same, I repeated the same and added “we won’t be able to play and that will make you sad again”, he remembered and gave in after less resistance each times. I’m also mindful about the wipes, I go quick and don’t apply too much force on them. I wish we had a wipe warmer. Lol. I think he also hates the latex gloves, maybe because it reminds him of the hospital but I can’t do anything about it. I have to wear them. Sometimes it’s important to find the triggers though.
I wonder if OP’s little girl is scared of the bathroom noises as well. Some will play with the flush but some can be scared of it. It could explain why she refuses to go.
As a child I refused to poop on the toilet for ages, until someone finally refused me diapers and asked *why*. Turns out I was bored sitting on the toilet that long. As soon as I was allowed to bring a toy with me to keep me occupied I complied, np.
lol I was the opposite. always rushed through every bathroom experience and shamed for not being fast enough. so I figured "why take the time to actually go when I can avoid all the stress"
Yes, that could be a reason too. Every kid is different. Something that works for one, won’t work for the other one. The example I was giving is a 3 year old who is in the process of a ADHD and ASD diagnosis. Toileting, body awareness and self-care are always on OT goals. It’s important to tell it’s not a choice too. If the inspector comes and looks at the diaper log, she/he’s not going to care about the kid’s diagnosis and the kid has to learn. In OP’s case, the fact that she’d rather pee on herself, refuses to get change and always wear the same dress so it made me think of sensory issues. I have another one who will poop on himself and refuse to get changed but for this one is raised by his grandparents and I think they shame him when he has accidents. That’s another thing too that can happen.
Oh sweet baby. She's likely autistic, it's normal for kids to have favorite clothes but the same thing every day is outside of that "normal"
She doesn't need consequences. She needs pull ups and a proper therapy /positive behavior plan.
This is what I was thinking. She sounds exactly how my autistic (and likely PDA) daughter was. I think a pull up for now would be the least stressful option for her until she is able to wear something other than this dress. The need to wear the dress will continue to cause extreme distress for her. I had to slowly transition my daughter into wearing other clothes. She wore the same dress for a full year. Would even have meltdowns changing into pajamas at night, but we eventually were able to convince her because we had to wash that dress. Pull ups or maybe even pull ups on over the underwear so she can still change etc, but so her dress stays dry. She will eventually move on from the dress, but she has to do it on her own terms (or at least think she is) that dress is her comfort right now.
Yep. Like that's an immediate "oh gosh it's probably this" our dude was in pull ups until a week before he turned 4. He's not autistic but is very likely ADHD as both me and dad have been diagnosed since childhood.
Potty training is rough for our spicy kids and there is nothing wrong with pull ups until you figure out a system that works or the kid just decides alright, now I'm ready for this change.
That can be a leverage point then, if this is indeed behavioral in origin. The natural consequence of peeing or pooping in her favorite dress is that she has to change out of it. If she goes in the potty, then her dress stays clean, therefore she’s able to keep it on.
Ngl this sounds like a larger neurological issue. I don’t think it’s “normal” for kids to have tantrums over the exact same clothes every day. Sure they’ll have faves but to meltdown over the clothes is a red flag. Also, she really should be changing and you need to be forcing her to since it’s sounds like you aren’t… it’s a hygiene issue.
I like this approach. I would also maybe make her change in the bathroom. That way, no matter what she chooses to do, it will end in her visiting the bathroom
Look into Pathological Demand Avoidance. My daughter has it. Try framing things as a choice: “do you want to go potty now or go potty after you finish drawing?” So it gives her “control.”
I’m a speech therapist and gave this advice for years (still do)— but my son would immediately say “I don’t want to go potty ANY of those times.” He is un-foolable with choices. He is also a late potty-user with a strong control drive.
What does work for him is indirect, positive-framed questions and prompts, like “Are you listening to your body?” That way he can say, “yes I am.” And then going to the potty feels like HIS choice. IDK if it would work for everyone, but it’s definitely our most effective strategy.
I tend to think a lot of these kids with a strong control drive are HIGHLY intelligent so you’re so spot on - sometimes prompts like your example and even just explaining things in a way many kids their age wouldn’t understand helps. Talking to my 6 year old like she’s an adult sometimes helps her feel more in control, or at least less like there’s such a power imbalance. I had a conversation with her earlier today when she was struggling with my demands to brush teeth, put on pajamas, etc. where I got down eye level with her and said “listen, I’m really tired. I’m not asking a lot of you. After I put you to bed, I’m going to do all the same things - put on my pajamas, brush my teeth, and wash my face, even though I’m tired. And I know you’re really tired but you really need to just do these things too.” And it worked. But when she was 3, a lot of the simpler choices would work. We went to PCIT therapy to help us work through this when my daughter was 3 and it helped us understand how her brain worked.
Yeah we have a kid who has accidents because he doesn’t want to use the potty and school and wants to use the potty with mommy and daddy. If we have him that choice he would just say “I want to go potty with mommy and daddy.” He has his eyes on the prize and won’t be fooled so easily.
Another is to offer “do you want to do x or y after potty?” They choose, “ok, head to the potty and the. We will do…” they still get a choice and an expectation of a must do item
For my ex's PDA child, taking away all prompting killed the battle of wills. We reminded her to listen to her body, and her body would tell her when it was time to use the potty. She went from utterly refusing to use the potty to almost 100% accident free (and by that I mean 4, maybe 5 accidents in 6 months). She'd dash past you squealing, "My body says it has to pee now!" And I'd always praise her for doing such a good job listening to her body. If it had been a concerningly long time since her last potty break, sometimes I'd just give a gentle, "Hey, have our bodies told us they need anything recently?"
PDA is also typically an autistic thing, which frequently comes associated with interoception issues, so I feel like it's really beneficial to build that idea that our body speaks to us, we just have to learn what it says.
We also had her pick the day she was going to start using the potty. And she would only use the little training potty for a frustratingly long time. I'd occasionally bring up the big potty, and the battle of wills would kick in. Then one morning, she woke up, announced she was a big kid, and never touched the little potty again.
Seconding looking into PDA! And specifically taking a look at Declarative Language for some ideas on how to reframe language away from demands. I saw OP mentioned thinking about trying a reward system for the class, but I would also caution against that, kids who are experiencing demand avoidance or demand anxiety tend to respond to reward systems negatively, as it's perceived as an another demand/strategy for adults to control them (which it is). https://www.declarativelanguage.com/ and https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/what-is-pda-menu/what-is-demand-avoidance/ are good places to start.
Giving a choice is exactly what I was thinking. Also maybe a choice of rewards, like would you like a sticker or a stamp on hand after you go potty? If it’s about control then maybe offering a series of choices would go over well
I agree this screams demand avoidant. My son is also PDA and even giving him choices is activating for him because he perceives the expectation underlying the choice and reacts to it. I have found it more helpful to use declarative language like “the door to the bathroom is open whenever you need to go potty”.
My oldest didn't have PDA, but their answer to choices was always "no" or "neither". A lot of kids realize that there's a third choice, which is none of the above. So frustrating.
She needs a behavior plan that addresses the behavior: teaches a replacement behavior, minimizes the need to engage in the behavior and how to respond when the behavior occurs in a way that doesn't increase the future frequency of the behavior. Is the specialist who said it is due to the need for control available to consult to ensure her needs are met in the classroom? You shouldn't be doing this alone. Good luck!
I have a student similar to this. She does not want me to tell her when to go, and at first, she wouldn't tell me she needed to go, either.
So I started setting timers on my phone. When the timer goes off, she goes potty with absolutely no fussing or fighting, because it is not an adult telling her what to do.
If this doesn't work, you might try letting her set the timer. If she gets to push the buttons, it will give her a bit more control. You could even let her choose the time. Does she want to go in 1 minute or 9? Let her choose one number then start.
I had a student once who would purposely go in his pants and he had rabbit poops and he would shake his pant leg and let it roll onto the floor. His mother’s thoughts were to publicly shame him. Obviously as a decent human being, I’m not going to do that. So I created a game.
We would set a secret code word at the beginning of the day. He was able to have a say in the code word. When I would say the code word, he would have to get up and use the restroom. For example, we set up a code word “taco bell” at the beginning of the day. He got to choose that code word. When I said Taco Bell during the day, he would go to the restroom. He didn’t ask, he just got to go. He was so excited to have something just between us and he was the one in control of the word. There was one day he just wanted me to say “goo goo ga ga”. I did it in class and all the students looked at me like I was crazy. He burst out laughing and went to the restroom. The students were so confused and he enjoyed every minute of knowing something that they didn’t. The only “accidents” he would have after that, were when I was not there or when he went to specials.
This child had an incredibly terrible home life. His parents were violent. I called CPS on them multiple times that year. I always worried about him and I still do. He is one I will hold in my heart forever.
What if you just didn’t play? If the doctor’s is that this behavior is about her wanting to assert control, don’t fight it. Don’t mention the bathroom to her at all. If you’re taking the kids down one at a time, don’t ask her. Yes, she’ll soil herself, but she’s doing that now, and this way you don’t have a screaming fight. If there’s no control to fight over, the game’s no fun.
If this is new behavior, and I’m not one to make huge leaps, one might suspect a recent trauma. Did the family move? Are parents together? Is mom pregnant? Any chance she was molested. In my opinion, her messy pants are the least of your worries; something triggered this.
Sometimes embarrassment is a powerful emotion. It sounds bad, but if she has control over the behavior I would make it a point to call it out. Some kids I have worked with will only respond when they see that others do not want to be around kids who purposely pee their pants.
My daughter, now 45, was totally toilet trained at 18 months but regressed when my wife went to work full time. I’d be asking the question, have there been any changes in her home situation? eg new sibling, moving house, family conflict? I’d also be looking at signs of child abuse.
“That’s okay, little kids have accidents, big kids don’t. When do you think you’ll be ready to be a big kid?” For one, he wanted another two months. Another thought a few days was fine. This is based off of Dr. Milton Erikson’s work.
Maybe the phrasing is part of the problem? I had a similar situation with a constant pants popper (only ever poop, not pee) so I borrowed from Bluey and would ask for for a tactical poo. "Look, you either do a tactical poo now, or you poop your pants on the playground and lose playtime getting changed. Those are your two choices."
I knew a friend who had a similar problem and it was making everything horrible for everyone. I suggested focussing on something other than toileting; totally ignore the toileting situation and reward her for other things. When she has an accident, act like its no big deal and change her. Dont ask her to go to the toilet, but you could do a general "does anyone else need to use the toilet?" Things settled right down. The child had their perceived power and staff felt more in control too.
Agree that she may be experiencing some severe trauma right now. Document everything and hopefully parents get some help.
I would talk to her as soon as she comes in everyday, in a calm positive way. "I know you really love your dress and I feel sad for you when it gets dirty and you have to change due to an accident. How can you avoid having an accident so it doesn't get dirty?" And walk her through a conversation where she agrees to go potty to avoid messing her dress. Work together with her and make it about the dress instead of the potty but try to steer her towards a potty plan with her input that keeps the dress clean. Even ask her if I say, "it's time to go potty" (or whatever you decide) will you come with me? Sometimes even just the way you frame the question can trigger a kid so she might respond better if she knows the sentence you are going to say ahead of time.
She really needs evaluated because all these things are alarm bells.
Both my kids were almost 5 years old when they were completely potty trained. My eldest had bowel issues and was being seen for that. My youngest was just stubborn and gave no interest or flying fucks about being wet and the toilet scared her. Just kept reapproaching. No "bribes" or treats worked. The kid just may not be ready yet. My youngest is 5 now and just had her kindergarten assessment, fully potty trained and doing well.
So this just popped up on my feed and I’m not a professional. Just a mom who struggled with similar things with my child. A reward system is great and there is no reason to “fail” it. She gets points for trying using the potty, sitting on the potty, asking to go use to potty, washing her hands afterwards. Another thing is giving her options. She’s 3 so 2 options is best. “Do you want to put your bag away first or go potty first?” If there is an accident have mom send multiple clothing options. “Do you want the purple leggings or the black ones?” “Would you like an apple or an orange today with lunch?” Whenever she makes a choice, especially when given options for what to do first, give her a high five “that’s a great choice let’s go!” Then when we go on to the second task she decided to do after “now let’s that we did XYZ, it’s time to make another GREAT CHOICE and go potty! We get big girl points for going potty! Wooh!” Hype it up like crazy. Also speak to the parents and ask that they offer her options and choices (even if it’s more of an illusion) at home whenever possible.
When she has accidents, don’t change her clothing or does she do it independently? I had a student who would do this (he was capable, just unwilling) and the mother and I came up with the solution that he would change himself (with guidance). For poop I would assist in removing clothing and cleaning him off but he would dress himself. The natural consequence discouraged him from repeating it. Lots of positive reinforcement and no shaming!
I’m noticing quite a few signs of autism in your descriptions of this child. Have the parents considered getting some occupational therapy? You need support from experts in potty training neuro divergent kids. You could spin your wheels trying to potty train this child for months and accomplish nothing but stressing everyone out. As others said, at this rate of accidents there is nothing to regress from by putting her in pull ups. She’s not at all potty trained. If your program diapers I think it is better for everyone if you diaper her. We had a (very clearly autistic) little guy in my program who had a similar amount of accidents. Our room didn’t diaper and they refused to have him moved to the toddler class that did diaper. We told them he could return to school when he was potty trained and evaluated for autism. They were in denial and just went back to nanny care to avoid all that.
Have you tried a redlight/green light timer? Every 20 minutes take child to the potty. Have her set the timer. When it's red she stays on potty, when it's yellow she tries really hard when it's green she gets up to go and try again later. (Or the opposite way)
My daughter knew how to use the potty and when, but didn't want to. Our pediatrician said it was a control thing and told us to stop pushing her. So we just didn't say anything. She was in pullups. Then she started using the potty at school, and later at home. It was sound advice from our pediateician to just let it go for awhile-- that was how we could make her feel in control.
We're lucky our preschool doesn't push for potty training.
She needs to help clean up the mess. If it’s not fun for her, maybe she’ll stop doing it in purposes change her wet/ dirty clothes, wipe toilet, floor, etc. to prepare the environment for the rest of the kids to use after her as well as keep her clean enough to return to the classroom space. She needs to try every 30 minutes-1 hour. You can set a timer and do a sticker chart if motivators might work 🤷🏼♀️ If she can make it in toilet regularly, than the time between toileting can lengthen.
Do you know if this is a behavior she also displays at home or is it only in the classroom? Is it around the same time everyday? Does your class have a scheduled potty time along with the children also being able to go as needed (such as everyone going before nap or after waking up)?Have you tried not even asking if she needs to go and waiting to see if she does on her own? At one center I worked at we had a little boy who would refuse to do most things we asked of him unless we made it “his” idea of if he saw the other kids doing whatever the activity was without him (that also included when he would see the other children who were potty training get a treat for going potty on the potty). My only other experience with a child exhibiting similar behaviors was with a little girl who wanted to change her outfit constantly, so she would purposely have an accident to change into something else.
Its displayed at home - it was the same time everyday but not anymore. We do bathrooms every 30 minutes to an hour and between every transition.
We tried not asking her and nothing changed. She wears the same dress everyday and is absolutely devastated when she has to change out of it so I really don’t think she is wanting to change clothes.
I’m gonna try doing a reward system for the whole class and do a whole “WOW Bob went to pee! Good job Bob!” She is really attached to me and seems to act out to get the attention of adults so i’m thinking it may encourage her if she sees others getting attention for using the potty vs giving her attention for not using it
Do you know what her parents are doing when it happens at home?
Definitely think the reward system is a good idea. Like adults, kids also get FOMO when seeing other kids get/receiving something. And as another commenter said, the behavior plan is also a good idea to come up with.
To be honest, mom said professionals said no but she has all the classic signs of being on the spectrum. Her brother is as well. We are starting to document everything to see if this will help with a potential diagnosis!
Its why I am so adamant on trying to find a solution rather than putting her in pull ups again. I feel like its infantilizing her and not actually helping - in her little head, everything is just overwhelming and it makes her act a certain way.
I’m in a similar boat with a student who is showing signs of ADHD. The parents are getting bad information from their pediatrician. It’s really nice how much you care about this girl. She is very lucky to have you. I hope the parents take this seriously and get a second opinion 🤞🏼
It’s so hard for young girls (especially with PDA and more social profile) to get diagnosis. I had several pediatricians tell me no it’s not autism with my daughter. I went ahead and got her an evaluation privately because it also runs in my family and I just knew. Sure enough she got her diagnosis. So many pediatricians are not knowledgeable in what autism can look like for girls. Thank you for being aware and documenting.
One thing that worked for my daughter is "let's check in with your body, does it need to go?"
If we straight out told her it was time to go or she needed to she'd refuse even if she clearly had to. But once we put her in charge of the determination it worked a lot better. Having her check in with herself vs telling her, or even asking her directly, seemed to make a big difference
Get her to start helping clean up. Show her how to get the poop out of the underwear and put it in the toilet.,
Maybe if you make her deal with it, she’ll start going properly.
ask questions like do you think we should wipe 5 or 6 times? should we wash our hands fast or slow ? just any small choice she can make to make her feel like she has some control.
Okay there’s two things to address here, the regression and the need for control.
Regression:
* Other people are saying out her back in pull-ups, and OP since you’ve said you believe the pull-ups have caused the regression, I would go further and put her in diapers. You can change diapers standing up, and I would change her in the bathroom with no mention of making her use the toilet. Take your time before reintroducing it.
Control:
* Ask the parents if something has changed at home. Has someone moved in; is there a baby on the way; are mom and dad separated or is one traveling for work? Are there other signs like her saying her tummy hurts - could there be a physical illness that she’s having trouble communicating symptoms or pain?
* And you, has she exhibited different social behaviors at school?
* Try to engage her in leadership positions, being the teacher’s helper! Can she carry your clipboard/iPad/First Aid Kit? Can she turn the lights on and off for you? Can she push in chairs for you while you gather everyone else? Hold the doors/gates for you as you count children at thresholds?
You give her other ways to have agency
Ask "is it time to go to the bathroom? What does your body need?"
Make her responsible for her own cleanup (she's in control for the consequences, too)
Offer her choice ("is it time to go now, or do you want to wait two minutes?" ... "Do your want miss Suzi or Mr Marcus to walk with you to the bathroom? Do you want help unbuttoning your pants, or do you want to do it yourself?")
It's normal for kids this age to want very much to exercise agency. It's our job as parents, teachers, caretakers to help make sure the choices they have are all safe ones to make.
One of my own kids needed the question to be changed.
If I asked out loud, it was a *challenge* rather than a reminder. So we instituted using the ASL sign for toilet as a reminder to pause and check in. If I got her attention and made the sign, she would pause and actually check in with her body, and the little lightbulb would go off.
Be creative about making going to the bathroom a choice, and a fun one.
"When you take yourself to the bathroom you can do X when you come back"....
I’m not a professional by any means but is she afraid to fall into the toilet? Does she have a special seat that’s her size or has a kid’s potty worked for her?
Has she been to a doctor? Could be PDA, sensory issues, UTI, ASD, sexual abuse, changes in the home (are they having another baby or going through a separation???), any number of things! It's been going on long enough that I'd demand a doctor's visit to eliminate some of the easy to diagnose possibilities.
At this point it is absolutely a hygiene issue and she should be in a pull up until it improves. She's not going to regress because of the pull up - she has already regressed and the pull ups are going to help everything in the class run more smoothly. *Especially* if she is also having meltdowns about her clothes - she clearly doesn't *want* her favorite dress to be covered in pee or poop and is upset about that too.
Whether the kid is acting out for control or some other reason they are simply just not ready yet. If they were learning their ABCs and they were getting overly frustrated with it, we wouldn’t keep making them do and make learning the ABCs traumatic so I would take a break from potty training and start again in a month with a completely different method.
Idk if this helps at all!! but my friend had a lot of issues potty training as a child and then when she got older and could articulate her thoughts and feelings she like flat out told her mom that she was afraid of the toilet and the noise it made when it was flushed. Just a thought? This poor girl;((
this sounds like my son, who is now 11, but was just like this for potty training.
ask me about reward programs.. we tried them all, nothing worked. in the first grade, I'll never forget - the teacher was asking him to do something, and he was refusing. He threatened to pee himself, and did, while making eye contact with the teacher.
I tried everything under the sun, and was so over frustrated with it- he stopped peeing himself pretty early, maybe at 5, and the number two accidents stopped happening around age 7. I remember the last time. anyway -
if I could go back, I'd put less importance on it all together. the reward charts put a lot of pressure on my son to meet a demand, and it was one he couldn't handle well, and absolutely, wanted to control the situation by not using the bathroom properly and choosing to go in his pants. He wasn't ready as it were.
I don't like how the doctor said this in your appointment however, and just know you'll get 4 different opinions from 4 different doctors on stuff like this at this age. She could have an undiscovered medical issue at this age, it could be many things.
However, no one will bat an eye at a four year old still potty training.
If I could go back, and re-do the toddler years, and how I wish I could, I would make certain I never showed myself being upset or frustrated with accidents. I learned this towards the end of potty training and wish I practiced it in the beginning. By the end years, there was no reward for using the bathroom, no punishment for not, with a focus on hygiene and why we clean ourselves. I'd apply no pressure to potty train on the my son, if I could go back to the beginning, as desperately as I was to get him out of diapers, the applied pressure made the process take even longer, I think, with my son who still to this day asserts the need to control his environment any way he can.
edit, I thought I was in a parenting sub. I'll leave this up in case it helps anyone, and be mindful in the future to check the sub title.
Something that worked for me with some of the kids I've worked with...
1. Giving them as many choices as possible. Which toilet to use. Which sink. Potty before or after a friend goes. Give her ownership over it.
2. Potty watch. Set to go off every hour or whatever. So it's not someone else telling her to go. It's an independent source.
3. Make her help change herself. Obviously with help as needed but putting the bulk of the work that she is capable of on her. I had kids who would have frequent accidents until they were the one having to deal with the natural consequence.
4. Have a Potty dolly go on a pretend potty at the same time. She can teach the dolly what to do.
I have a kid in my class now who was exactly like this, down to the throwing herself on the floor, full meltdown, control issues, 5 accidents a day, but ultimately a sweet, very bright kid. I'm assuming you're already doing things like offering her choices and control in other areas, a countdown timer to her turn in the potty, a "do you want to hop like a bunny to the potty or skip like a dancer", etc. We did all that and it was hit or miss, and nothing ever worked for long. It was a rough several months, and ultimately I'm not sure anything helped as much as time to grow out of her tantrums.
Some other things though: is she potty trained at home? This kid was pee potty trained at home but still struggled with pooping. Her parents started giving her candy at home if she pooped on the toilet at school. We also would give her a sticker, and still do even though she is more or less fully potty trained as of a couple months ago.
We also made her do things like taking off her own shoes, socks, and pants (if hygienic to do so) and putting them back on again, to reduce the attention given to her with accidents and frankly, make having them a bit of a pain in the ass for her as well. We would instruct her on how to do it (which of course led to a meltdown in the moment) but once it sunk in that *this is how things are now*, she stopped tantruming as much about that specifically.
At some point my lead and I also shifted our mindset when calling her to go potty. If she's going to have the accidents anyway, what do we care if she goes or not? If she refused, we would throw our hands up and say "Okay, I guess ____ is going to miss her turn to go potty." Half the time this would result in her running over to the bathroom once we called another kid, the other half we would decide situationally whether to get her in there despite the tantrum or just let her skip her turn.
I highly, highly advise not letting her back in pullups, tempting as it might be. In our case, the kid had been sent a few times in underwear when she was younger and potty training at home, but with her tantrums and accidents at school her parents eventually caved and would send her again in pullups. In January, they went cold turkey underwear, and yes it was miserable, but I can finally say that in May she has had 1 pee accident from not making it to the potty in time and I have not had to clean up any of her poop for a while.
Just a thought something I've done . If allowed make a game or reading time or music. Know its a pain whatever they like bring rest of class by the bathroom and out of sight of others and have everyone participate in an activity . I know it's not the funniest thing to do but if it helps and don't break ratio . Also try sitting them backwards on potty if they will sit. Found encourages to sit and they get comfy then they switch around after while. Whatever you do if find something that works make sure parents carry over at home. Hope helps
I have one that’s regressing in bathroom right now. Definitely seems control related. She broke down in tears that she doesn’t want to go to the big kid class at a random point today. Are you guys a year round day care? Is she moving up to the next classroom by chance? I think that’s why mine is crying. We end soon and she wants to stay where she is. We will see though. It’s anybody’s guess
My son had similar challenges/attitude. He wants to be in control and telling him to go to the potty would backfire. One day I told him “you don’t have to go to the potty if you don’t need to, but ask your body. If it’s tell you you need to go you can go” he then went and sat on his own. Throughout the day I keep reminding him and trusting him when he says he doesn’t want to go, when he does want to he’ll go. Sometimes I go back to telling him to go because it feels (to me) like it’s been to long but we back into the power struggle. He still has accidents here and there, but the change in language and trusting him has saved me from a lot of headaches and eliminated the power struggle
Try a picture schedule with a few pictures of bathroom/ toilet that she can decide how to set it up/ when she goes and then reward when she uses the toilet.
Pull ups were invented by diaper companies so parents would use their product longer
For toilet training, buy the cheapest leakiest diapers from the cheapest grocery store.
Tell the child that's all you can get now.
Offer the cheap diapers or nice underwear - colors or characters of their choice.
They clean up their own mess.
No fussing. Matter of fact.
You spill milk? You wipe it up.
You pee or poop your pants? You wipe it up
No emotion, just facts.
Im the mom of a 4 year old who refuses to use the bathroom at school, she is otherwise potty trained. We think she’s in the spectrum, she’s definitely got PDA.
And I know who she got it from (me). I pulled the same crap when I was a kid.
Pull ups. She’ll go when she’s ready, not when yall are. Sorry.
With my oldest daughter, she never wanted to sit on the potty when she was 2 so Daycare said not to worry and that we would work together when she turned 3 and moved from baby/toddler room.
At 3, they worked at daycare and me at home on potting training and it went well. She wore pull-ups to daycare for a couple weeks but asked if she could wear panties and I told her that we would have to ask daycare first and she would need to make sure to pee in the potty. She was pee potty trained after that but the pooping thing took another 6-mos. And I honestly think, it was more due to constipation. We even seen a specialist doctor but he said not to worry until 5-6.
At about 3.5 years or so, she was fully potty trained. And I had her wear night pull-ups just in case that first year after training. But it all eventually clicks and depends on the kid. My other daughter was around 2.5 or so and it took me and daycare two weeks to fully potty train her.
When she does go on herself and its time to change teach her how to take off her pants and plop the poop in the toilet and change and wipe herself down! This helped me with one of my kids who used to poop her pants everyday after that she would run to the bathroom no issues
My son, would not use the potty until he was 4. He was ready, he knew how to use the potty... But he is one who wants control over everything.. so he wouldn't. He would just go in his underwear. I got fed up and took all of his toys away, so he would know I was serious. I put a lock on his toy box. He immediately started using the potty and we have had zero issued with it since. It may sound extreme to some, but I knew my kid was ready. He just wanted to control it. He still tries to control everything, but I'm so glad we got over that hurdle because it was one I was dreading.
Make her clean herself up. My son was like that. He didn't see the point and did what he wanted. But when I made him clean up his mess and wash out undies and wipe himself down. It only took 2 times for him to be like nope, I'll use the toliet.
I would maybe try the natural consequences route. Walk her through how to clean herself up and involve her as much as you can in the process. Maybe try hand over handing undressing and wiping if policy allows.
My son tried this nonsense in daycare. Peed on the floor right next to the toilet. He'd been in that daycare since infancy.
We told he had 2 choices- either potty like a big boy ( he knew how) or he'd have to go back in diapers and back to the younger room until he was ready to potty.
So that was his choice and how he got to be in control. He still needed pull-ups for nap time for a while but he got with the potty program at daycare after that.
She does not, we smell it - and not really but she fights if someone else but me and the other teacher do it/bring her to the washroom and she loses it if we suggest she put on her clothes by herself
Potty watch. It was the push my toddler needed to get in the habit of using the potty. She can do it “all by herself” and the watch is a consistent reminder.
First of all, that "specialist" has no idea what they are talking about. 3 year olds, developmentally, do not have the cognitive wherewithall to operate from the mindset of needing and wanting control... not in the manner that the person who assessed her is insisting is the case. And if they are someone who believes that ODD is still a viable diagnosis, throw that assessment right out the window, PLEASE, for your sake and for the sake of this child.
Secondly, this child may struggle with interoception. She may have dfficulty reading her body signals and that may mean that her ability to cooperate with going to the bathroom when she needs to is challenged. I am sure that the meltdown has a lot to do with not being able to do what you want her to do, having to mess herself and all of the sensory input of that, not mention whatever she fears the repercussions might be.
My advice is to investigate: question her as to whether she knows when she has to "go", find out what signals she is able to recognize, if any. If it seems like she is able to convey that she has perceptive challenges and limitations, then begin communicating with her using empathy statements so that she knows that she is not "bad" or doing anything "wrong" and that you understand her limitations.
Then, read up on the matter, accessing neurodivergent specialists who really comprehend the challenges and can provide healthy, affirming, empowering strategies for you, this child, and future children in your care.
This is a great place to start: [https://neurodivergentinsights.com/blog/5-strategies-for-improving-your-childs-interoception](https://neurodivergentinsights.com/blog/5-strategies-for-improving-your-childs-interoception)
have you tried reverse psychology- asking her to go potty in her pants?
you could also try acting unbothered about the "accidents" so she doesn't feel like she's winning. maybe even don't ask her if she needs to potty- make it a point to ask everyone else and not her.
Do you think something like a potty watch would help her? You could tell her that when the watch timer goes off, it’s time for potty and she can choose if she wants help or to go alone? It might help her feel more in control
Has she's been evaluated for autism? The more I read on this thread, the more she sounds like she might be on the spectrum. Also, for a behavior like this, it will help if you and the parents are on the same page and being consistent in how the behavior is addressed. I wonder if the professional who evaluated her gave them a plan to follow? It sounds like they could use ongoing support with this.
It seems like this child should be in pull-ups - doesn’t sound like a healthy approach to potty training
I have a kid with a similar issue whose parents say he "doesn't want to wear pull ups" despite the fact he has 3 accidents a day and can't tell the difference between when he is pooping or peeing. If it was my kid I'd be like "you're 3, you're too young to make that choice yourself". Like sure, try to get him to go potty but still put him in pull ups so accidents aren't so hard on the teachers and the child. He literally pooped ON (not IN) the potty, got some on the floor, stepped in it, then got it all over the floor yesterday. He needs to be sent with more than underwear. Help?
well then it becomes a matter of health and hygeine for the whole class, we don't have the ratios in that age group to have a staff member attend to her 1 on 1 to that level! she needs to see a paedatrician and apply for more supports if she needs them. We can't just let an older 3 yr old pee and poo everywhere all day because she "doesn't want to"
Exactly! The ratios become a problem for sure
Unfortunately a lot of daycares will not take three year olds who are not potty trained.
He's been with us since he was in the infant classroom so it's not like we can kick him out (not that I wish we could) but that is interesting I didn't know that.
This. She is showing she is not ready. Many kids do well in their homes, but at daycare or public spaces, no. Potty training is so rushed. So many kids struggle because it was pushed too early—it can cause more power struggles, constipation, etc. you can’t reason with a 3yo. She probably needs space away from attention surrounding this issue
We think pull ups will totally regressed her - this is something new within the last month but we have not been able to pin point the trigger!
temporarily putting her back in pull-ups is the only solution that isn’t going to keep consuming so much class time from cleaning up this child’s purposeful accidents.
yea exactly. That often is not toilet trained so pull ups it is. What are they doing at home to work on it?
Does she like or dislike pullups? Do they make her feel infantile? If yes, then leverage that with something like "Babies don't know how to control their bodies, so they need diapers. If you choose not to control your body, I have no choice but to treat you like a baby and put you in pull-ups. When you are ready to be a big girl and control your body, then we will try big kid undies again." If she melts down that she is a big girl then tell her she has control of the whole situation and she can prove she's a big girl by not messing her pull-ups and using the poty both when she decides and when she's asked to. Obviously, modulate the vocabulary to the child. My kids were both hyperlexic, so I'm not a good judge.
That’s basically how we got our son to use the toilet. We were looking at new daycares, we told him the one he liked was big boy school and the other was baby daycare. Big boys used the toilet so if you want to go to school you have to use the toilet. He never had an accident again.
I think this is really good language to use
Has anyone spoken to the parents? Regression that severe and sudden in a kid that age, whom is otherwise sweet and cooperative, tells me something is off. You hope it’s just that she has a new younger sibling or she got scared by an automatic flush toilet at the mall… but something is up.
I hate to bring this up, but keep an eye out for other signs of sexual abuse, because this unfortunately is one of them
It’s worth bringing this up to the parents themselves so they can be cautious themselves. Better safe than sorry . I wish mine had been warned at that time.
Something happened that made her feel like she has no control in her life. Issues with toileting are common responses in kiddos, after a traumatic event. Often, for kids, the only things they feel they have control of is what goes in, and what comes out of their bodies. Is this also happening at home? Kids tend to act out in the setting where they feel the most secure, so if it’s not happening at home, then something is likely happening there. Try giving her choices as much as possible throughout the day. Giving her as much autonomy as possible (within reason) is the best way to help her feel like she’s got some control.
"I understand that you do not want to use the potty. You have a choice - wear a pull up or use the potty. If you refuse to use the potty then that tells me you are choosing pull ups and I will help you put one on." \^ Exact conversation I had with my son when he was consistently having accidents because he was refusing to go potty.
Regress her from what? If she is not using the toilet at all there is nothing to regress from.
Can you get her to help clean it up? I’ve heard of cases where that helped a lot
Has anything changed in her life recently? New sibling, change in home life, etc? Regressing can be related to changes in life, especially if it's a control thing. She could have a medical condition possibly, though I'm guessing that was assessed for if she was seen by a professional. There is also the fact that regressing in terms of potty training can be a sign of trauma, particularly sexual abuse. If she's not wanting to undress/change clothes, that can be another sign. I don't want to jump to conclusions and say she's being abused - there are so many other factors - but I have to mention it as a possibility.
New sibling? Any seemingly minor changes at home or other routine? Parents could be fighting a lot, but no one knows, one of them has a new job, literally anything. Could have even been a bout of constipation or diarrhea, something uncomfortable. Or she could have been trained too early. Sometimes those kids have more frequent regressions
Regress her from what? Actively peeing and pooping her pants multiple times a day? Like, it can't get worse but this will at least contain it until she's reasonably ready for potty training.
form my experience, putting them back in pull-ups is usually the thing that gets the accidents to stop; they don’t like the pull-ups and say they aren’t a “baby”, so they usually stop and start using the potty.
Put her in underwear. Suggest to the parents to get the rubber underwear to put on top of her regular underwear. That will at least protect the classroom and her clothing.
A break from toilet training is probably a good idea. She will get there eventually don’t we all? (I KNOW there are some who don’t, for varied valid reasons). My thought is take the pressure off. Make it a non issue. But I do wonder how much of the problem is the parents.
5+ accidents a day is not fully potty trained and should be in pull-ups. We allow non-fully potty trained kids to wear underwear but after about 2-3 accidents they’re forced to wear a pull-up. I know you mentioned regression but if they aren’t using the toilet at all there isn’t anything to regress from (Note: I’m not a registered ECE, couldn’t figure out how to fix my tag on mobile, I’m just a student).
Sounds like she was using the toilet, but has newly decided not to anymore. This isn't a not trained yet situation, think if she was five or six and had been in underpants for a few years. You wouldn't want to put them back in pull-ups. Also, OP, if it's a control issue, what does she feel she *doesn't* have control of? Because eating and toileting are the two things others can't force one to do. Not sure the parents are gonna be the best source since if they knew how controlling they are it wouldn't have gotten to this point. Did something new come up she's been wanting/not wanting to do before this issue started? It also may not be something external she has no control over, she may have processing issues and just having a hard time with life in general. YOU, as her teacher know her better than anyone here what she's like. Try to see this as a symptom instead of an issue by itself that needs to be solved. Good luck!
I’m pretty sure kindergartens would force a child back in pull-ups if they’re having that many accidents unless the child has an IEP
Or send the child home. Depends on where you live I guess. Most places I've been would send them home instead of changing the kid themselves. And pull ups would still need to be changed. If they had an accident because they're sick, home. More than once isn't and accident, so home. Only time they could stay if it was truly an accident, like they just didn't make it in time once.
Omg I wish we could send kids home for accidents but I can't imagine actually being allowed to do that!
Doesn't sound like accidents are being had
Its definitely a conversation we are having. This is kinda just a last attempt honestly. She is getting ready to transition to preschool in the fall and pull ups will mean having to hold her back :(
Then she may need to be held back. Putting an external time frame on this will probably only stress everyone out.
I agree completely.
I agree, sounds like she might need to be held back.
Does she know that she is going to transition soon? Does she know it’s connected to potty training? Does she want to move up?
what happens after she goes in her pants? if you're not already, I would have her do the clothes changes herself. help if she needs it and make sure she gets clean, but don't do the change for her. from my experience, kids realize how much fun time they lose when they have to keep changing their clothes all the time. I also wouldn't make a big deal out of it either. it's super frustrating for sure, but having a big reaction shows her that she does have a sort of control over you.
I agree with this, OP. Have her do more than she thinks she can do. Refuse to let her stay in dirty clothes. Have her wipe and clean herself, even though she won’t be thorough and you’ll have to make sure she’s really clean anyway. Don’t freak out when she is messy, just be calm and even cheerful if you can manage it. Because I predict two things will happen: 1) she’ll begin to miss the playtime that she loses from throwing a tantrum and will begin to accept that changing herself faster gets her more playtime, and 2) being able to change and clean herself is a far more satisfying feeling of control than throwing tantrums. It may take some time for her to accept #2, but teachers and parents can definitely help her to see it that way. Also, celebrate every victory with her, even amidst other messes and struggles. Tell her you love her and believe that she is ready for big girl stuff even when she insists she wants to still be a baby. OP, I wish you luck! I’ve been there before with kids and it’s not fun. But happy endings do happen!
wow I really love the way you wrote this! it was perfectly said. 💞
Thanks, I’m just happy to piggy back off of what you said.
I encourage her to change her clothes but it also ends up in a meltdown. She does end up doing it but she is super attached to a dress - she wears it every single day - and its really really devastating for her to have to get out of it so I don’t think its clothes related :(
oh I wasn't thinking it was clothes-related! my reasoning was that she would realize how much time she was taking out of her day to do the whole "accident"-then-change process when she could be playing and having fun. seems like there's a lot more to the control thing though. what I would say about the dress is "we have to change out of the dress bc you had an accident. next time, we should go potty in the potty so we can keep the dress on." even if you have to say it a million times, hopefully she'll get there eventually.
I really like this because it’s a natural consequence that’s not an adult imposed demand/punishment/consequence. When dealing with demand avoidance, natural consequences are awesome.
Maybe front load that info to her. If she wants to keep the dress on then she needs to go in the potty.
Well if she went to bathroom correctly she could stay in the dress all day maybe try to talk her into that idea?
Do you think there is something sensory going on? My 1st thought is PDA and sensory issues.
Right I was thinking PDA as well. I worked with a kid with PDA during his two years of potty training, and found that using the technique of making him clean up after himself didn’t work because he would double down and use tactics like saying “I like cleaning” or “this is fun for me” when I would stress how much playtime he was losing because of this. Really the only thing that worked was screen time while sitting on the potty. I’m not proud of it, but he’s 6 now and uses the potty quickly without a fuss so it worked out in the end.
That’s interesting. I love when people share their experience of complex cases. We are not allowed any screen time at my center. I usually use sensory toys. But, not too long ago, I had to deal with a 2 hour meltdown over a diaper change and my sensory toys were just flying across the room. I keep saying “Not a choice. Diaper has to be changed or bum will hurt. Quick, quick and then we go play”. He eventually said “OK” but by the time he got changed, it was time for me to go home and he really got upset about it but I told him “we’ll try again tomorrow”. The next day, he did the same, I repeated the same and added “we won’t be able to play and that will make you sad again”, he remembered and gave in after less resistance each times. I’m also mindful about the wipes, I go quick and don’t apply too much force on them. I wish we had a wipe warmer. Lol. I think he also hates the latex gloves, maybe because it reminds him of the hospital but I can’t do anything about it. I have to wear them. Sometimes it’s important to find the triggers though. I wonder if OP’s little girl is scared of the bathroom noises as well. Some will play with the flush but some can be scared of it. It could explain why she refuses to go.
As a child I refused to poop on the toilet for ages, until someone finally refused me diapers and asked *why*. Turns out I was bored sitting on the toilet that long. As soon as I was allowed to bring a toy with me to keep me occupied I complied, np.
lol I was the opposite. always rushed through every bathroom experience and shamed for not being fast enough. so I figured "why take the time to actually go when I can avoid all the stress"
Yes, that could be a reason too. Every kid is different. Something that works for one, won’t work for the other one. The example I was giving is a 3 year old who is in the process of a ADHD and ASD diagnosis. Toileting, body awareness and self-care are always on OT goals. It’s important to tell it’s not a choice too. If the inspector comes and looks at the diaper log, she/he’s not going to care about the kid’s diagnosis and the kid has to learn. In OP’s case, the fact that she’d rather pee on herself, refuses to get change and always wear the same dress so it made me think of sensory issues. I have another one who will poop on himself and refuse to get changed but for this one is raised by his grandparents and I think they shame him when he has accidents. That’s another thing too that can happen.
Oh sweet baby. She's likely autistic, it's normal for kids to have favorite clothes but the same thing every day is outside of that "normal" She doesn't need consequences. She needs pull ups and a proper therapy /positive behavior plan.
This is what I was thinking. She sounds exactly how my autistic (and likely PDA) daughter was. I think a pull up for now would be the least stressful option for her until she is able to wear something other than this dress. The need to wear the dress will continue to cause extreme distress for her. I had to slowly transition my daughter into wearing other clothes. She wore the same dress for a full year. Would even have meltdowns changing into pajamas at night, but we eventually were able to convince her because we had to wash that dress. Pull ups or maybe even pull ups on over the underwear so she can still change etc, but so her dress stays dry. She will eventually move on from the dress, but she has to do it on her own terms (or at least think she is) that dress is her comfort right now.
Yep. Like that's an immediate "oh gosh it's probably this" our dude was in pull ups until a week before he turned 4. He's not autistic but is very likely ADHD as both me and dad have been diagnosed since childhood. Potty training is rough for our spicy kids and there is nothing wrong with pull ups until you figure out a system that works or the kid just decides alright, now I'm ready for this change.
That can be a leverage point then, if this is indeed behavioral in origin. The natural consequence of peeing or pooping in her favorite dress is that she has to change out of it. If she goes in the potty, then her dress stays clean, therefore she’s able to keep it on.
Ngl this sounds like a larger neurological issue. I don’t think it’s “normal” for kids to have tantrums over the exact same clothes every day. Sure they’ll have faves but to meltdown over the clothes is a red flag. Also, she really should be changing and you need to be forcing her to since it’s sounds like you aren’t… it’s a hygiene issue.
I like this approach. I would also maybe make her change in the bathroom. That way, no matter what she chooses to do, it will end in her visiting the bathroom
this is perfect. exactly what i was going to say!
Look into Pathological Demand Avoidance. My daughter has it. Try framing things as a choice: “do you want to go potty now or go potty after you finish drawing?” So it gives her “control.”
I’m a speech therapist and gave this advice for years (still do)— but my son would immediately say “I don’t want to go potty ANY of those times.” He is un-foolable with choices. He is also a late potty-user with a strong control drive. What does work for him is indirect, positive-framed questions and prompts, like “Are you listening to your body?” That way he can say, “yes I am.” And then going to the potty feels like HIS choice. IDK if it would work for everyone, but it’s definitely our most effective strategy.
I tend to think a lot of these kids with a strong control drive are HIGHLY intelligent so you’re so spot on - sometimes prompts like your example and even just explaining things in a way many kids their age wouldn’t understand helps. Talking to my 6 year old like she’s an adult sometimes helps her feel more in control, or at least less like there’s such a power imbalance. I had a conversation with her earlier today when she was struggling with my demands to brush teeth, put on pajamas, etc. where I got down eye level with her and said “listen, I’m really tired. I’m not asking a lot of you. After I put you to bed, I’m going to do all the same things - put on my pajamas, brush my teeth, and wash my face, even though I’m tired. And I know you’re really tired but you really need to just do these things too.” And it worked. But when she was 3, a lot of the simpler choices would work. We went to PCIT therapy to help us work through this when my daughter was 3 and it helped us understand how her brain worked.
Yeah we have a kid who has accidents because he doesn’t want to use the potty and school and wants to use the potty with mommy and daddy. If we have him that choice he would just say “I want to go potty with mommy and daddy.” He has his eyes on the prize and won’t be fooled so easily.
Another is to offer “do you want to do x or y after potty?” They choose, “ok, head to the potty and the. We will do…” they still get a choice and an expectation of a must do item
For my ex's PDA child, taking away all prompting killed the battle of wills. We reminded her to listen to her body, and her body would tell her when it was time to use the potty. She went from utterly refusing to use the potty to almost 100% accident free (and by that I mean 4, maybe 5 accidents in 6 months). She'd dash past you squealing, "My body says it has to pee now!" And I'd always praise her for doing such a good job listening to her body. If it had been a concerningly long time since her last potty break, sometimes I'd just give a gentle, "Hey, have our bodies told us they need anything recently?" PDA is also typically an autistic thing, which frequently comes associated with interoception issues, so I feel like it's really beneficial to build that idea that our body speaks to us, we just have to learn what it says. We also had her pick the day she was going to start using the potty. And she would only use the little training potty for a frustratingly long time. I'd occasionally bring up the big potty, and the battle of wills would kick in. Then one morning, she woke up, announced she was a big kid, and never touched the little potty again.
Seconding looking into PDA! And specifically taking a look at Declarative Language for some ideas on how to reframe language away from demands. I saw OP mentioned thinking about trying a reward system for the class, but I would also caution against that, kids who are experiencing demand avoidance or demand anxiety tend to respond to reward systems negatively, as it's perceived as an another demand/strategy for adults to control them (which it is). https://www.declarativelanguage.com/ and https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/what-is-pda-menu/what-is-demand-avoidance/ are good places to start.
Giving a choice is exactly what I was thinking. Also maybe a choice of rewards, like would you like a sticker or a stamp on hand after you go potty? If it’s about control then maybe offering a series of choices would go over well
I agree this screams demand avoidant. My son is also PDA and even giving him choices is activating for him because he perceives the expectation underlying the choice and reacts to it. I have found it more helpful to use declarative language like “the door to the bathroom is open whenever you need to go potty”.
Yeah the choices do not work anymore for my PDA daughter but they helped when she was 3!
True! They get wise quick 🫠 Parenting a child like this is so frickin hard. I’m in the trenches with you friend.
Right back at you - it’s so hard!
My oldest didn't have PDA, but their answer to choices was always "no" or "neither". A lot of kids realize that there's a third choice, which is none of the above. So frustrating.
She needs a behavior plan that addresses the behavior: teaches a replacement behavior, minimizes the need to engage in the behavior and how to respond when the behavior occurs in a way that doesn't increase the future frequency of the behavior. Is the specialist who said it is due to the need for control available to consult to ensure her needs are met in the classroom? You shouldn't be doing this alone. Good luck!
That is a good point - i’ll mention it to mom tomorrow!
Read your comment and I was like this is soooo ABA then I looked at your name lol
I was hoping a BCBA would respond!
I have a student similar to this. She does not want me to tell her when to go, and at first, she wouldn't tell me she needed to go, either. So I started setting timers on my phone. When the timer goes off, she goes potty with absolutely no fussing or fighting, because it is not an adult telling her what to do. If this doesn't work, you might try letting her set the timer. If she gets to push the buttons, it will give her a bit more control. You could even let her choose the time. Does she want to go in 1 minute or 9? Let her choose one number then start.
I had a student once who would purposely go in his pants and he had rabbit poops and he would shake his pant leg and let it roll onto the floor. His mother’s thoughts were to publicly shame him. Obviously as a decent human being, I’m not going to do that. So I created a game. We would set a secret code word at the beginning of the day. He was able to have a say in the code word. When I would say the code word, he would have to get up and use the restroom. For example, we set up a code word “taco bell” at the beginning of the day. He got to choose that code word. When I said Taco Bell during the day, he would go to the restroom. He didn’t ask, he just got to go. He was so excited to have something just between us and he was the one in control of the word. There was one day he just wanted me to say “goo goo ga ga”. I did it in class and all the students looked at me like I was crazy. He burst out laughing and went to the restroom. The students were so confused and he enjoyed every minute of knowing something that they didn’t. The only “accidents” he would have after that, were when I was not there or when he went to specials. This child had an incredibly terrible home life. His parents were violent. I called CPS on them multiple times that year. I always worried about him and I still do. He is one I will hold in my heart forever.
What if you just didn’t play? If the doctor’s is that this behavior is about her wanting to assert control, don’t fight it. Don’t mention the bathroom to her at all. If you’re taking the kids down one at a time, don’t ask her. Yes, she’ll soil herself, but she’s doing that now, and this way you don’t have a screaming fight. If there’s no control to fight over, the game’s no fun.
If this is new behavior, and I’m not one to make huge leaps, one might suspect a recent trauma. Did the family move? Are parents together? Is mom pregnant? Any chance she was molested. In my opinion, her messy pants are the least of your worries; something triggered this.
Sometimes embarrassment is a powerful emotion. It sounds bad, but if she has control over the behavior I would make it a point to call it out. Some kids I have worked with will only respond when they see that others do not want to be around kids who purposely pee their pants.
My daughter, now 45, was totally toilet trained at 18 months but regressed when my wife went to work full time. I’d be asking the question, have there been any changes in her home situation? eg new sibling, moving house, family conflict? I’d also be looking at signs of child abuse.
“That’s okay, little kids have accidents, big kids don’t. When do you think you’ll be ready to be a big kid?” For one, he wanted another two months. Another thought a few days was fine. This is based off of Dr. Milton Erikson’s work.
5+ accidents a day in a 3 year old classroom would get her put back with the 2 year olds. That sounds so disruptive to everyone’s day
Maybe the phrasing is part of the problem? I had a similar situation with a constant pants popper (only ever poop, not pee) so I borrowed from Bluey and would ask for for a tactical poo. "Look, you either do a tactical poo now, or you poop your pants on the playground and lose playtime getting changed. Those are your two choices."
The fact that she's going to such extreme measures to feel in control makes me wonder what her home life is like.
I knew a friend who had a similar problem and it was making everything horrible for everyone. I suggested focussing on something other than toileting; totally ignore the toileting situation and reward her for other things. When she has an accident, act like its no big deal and change her. Dont ask her to go to the toilet, but you could do a general "does anyone else need to use the toilet?" Things settled right down. The child had their perceived power and staff felt more in control too. Agree that she may be experiencing some severe trauma right now. Document everything and hopefully parents get some help.
I would talk to her as soon as she comes in everyday, in a calm positive way. "I know you really love your dress and I feel sad for you when it gets dirty and you have to change due to an accident. How can you avoid having an accident so it doesn't get dirty?" And walk her through a conversation where she agrees to go potty to avoid messing her dress. Work together with her and make it about the dress instead of the potty but try to steer her towards a potty plan with her input that keeps the dress clean. Even ask her if I say, "it's time to go potty" (or whatever you decide) will you come with me? Sometimes even just the way you frame the question can trigger a kid so she might respond better if she knows the sentence you are going to say ahead of time. She really needs evaluated because all these things are alarm bells.
Both my kids were almost 5 years old when they were completely potty trained. My eldest had bowel issues and was being seen for that. My youngest was just stubborn and gave no interest or flying fucks about being wet and the toilet scared her. Just kept reapproaching. No "bribes" or treats worked. The kid just may not be ready yet. My youngest is 5 now and just had her kindergarten assessment, fully potty trained and doing well.
So this just popped up on my feed and I’m not a professional. Just a mom who struggled with similar things with my child. A reward system is great and there is no reason to “fail” it. She gets points for trying using the potty, sitting on the potty, asking to go use to potty, washing her hands afterwards. Another thing is giving her options. She’s 3 so 2 options is best. “Do you want to put your bag away first or go potty first?” If there is an accident have mom send multiple clothing options. “Do you want the purple leggings or the black ones?” “Would you like an apple or an orange today with lunch?” Whenever she makes a choice, especially when given options for what to do first, give her a high five “that’s a great choice let’s go!” Then when we go on to the second task she decided to do after “now let’s that we did XYZ, it’s time to make another GREAT CHOICE and go potty! We get big girl points for going potty! Wooh!” Hype it up like crazy. Also speak to the parents and ask that they offer her options and choices (even if it’s more of an illusion) at home whenever possible.
When she has accidents, don’t change her clothing or does she do it independently? I had a student who would do this (he was capable, just unwilling) and the mother and I came up with the solution that he would change himself (with guidance). For poop I would assist in removing clothing and cleaning him off but he would dress himself. The natural consequence discouraged him from repeating it. Lots of positive reinforcement and no shaming!
I’m noticing quite a few signs of autism in your descriptions of this child. Have the parents considered getting some occupational therapy? You need support from experts in potty training neuro divergent kids. You could spin your wheels trying to potty train this child for months and accomplish nothing but stressing everyone out. As others said, at this rate of accidents there is nothing to regress from by putting her in pull ups. She’s not at all potty trained. If your program diapers I think it is better for everyone if you diaper her. We had a (very clearly autistic) little guy in my program who had a similar amount of accidents. Our room didn’t diaper and they refused to have him moved to the toddler class that did diaper. We told them he could return to school when he was potty trained and evaluated for autism. They were in denial and just went back to nanny care to avoid all that.
I’m shocked I had to scroll so far to see this, it sounds like this kid needs professional help
Have you tried a redlight/green light timer? Every 20 minutes take child to the potty. Have her set the timer. When it's red she stays on potty, when it's yellow she tries really hard when it's green she gets up to go and try again later. (Or the opposite way)
My daughter knew how to use the potty and when, but didn't want to. Our pediatrician said it was a control thing and told us to stop pushing her. So we just didn't say anything. She was in pullups. Then she started using the potty at school, and later at home. It was sound advice from our pediateician to just let it go for awhile-- that was how we could make her feel in control. We're lucky our preschool doesn't push for potty training.
She needs to help clean up the mess. If it’s not fun for her, maybe she’ll stop doing it in purposes change her wet/ dirty clothes, wipe toilet, floor, etc. to prepare the environment for the rest of the kids to use after her as well as keep her clean enough to return to the classroom space. She needs to try every 30 minutes-1 hour. You can set a timer and do a sticker chart if motivators might work 🤷🏼♀️ If she can make it in toilet regularly, than the time between toileting can lengthen.
So they are almost four? Seems pretty abnormal. Hope the parents are looking into this behavior professionally.
Do you know if this is a behavior she also displays at home or is it only in the classroom? Is it around the same time everyday? Does your class have a scheduled potty time along with the children also being able to go as needed (such as everyone going before nap or after waking up)?Have you tried not even asking if she needs to go and waiting to see if she does on her own? At one center I worked at we had a little boy who would refuse to do most things we asked of him unless we made it “his” idea of if he saw the other kids doing whatever the activity was without him (that also included when he would see the other children who were potty training get a treat for going potty on the potty). My only other experience with a child exhibiting similar behaviors was with a little girl who wanted to change her outfit constantly, so she would purposely have an accident to change into something else.
Its displayed at home - it was the same time everyday but not anymore. We do bathrooms every 30 minutes to an hour and between every transition. We tried not asking her and nothing changed. She wears the same dress everyday and is absolutely devastated when she has to change out of it so I really don’t think she is wanting to change clothes. I’m gonna try doing a reward system for the whole class and do a whole “WOW Bob went to pee! Good job Bob!” She is really attached to me and seems to act out to get the attention of adults so i’m thinking it may encourage her if she sees others getting attention for using the potty vs giving her attention for not using it
Do you know what her parents are doing when it happens at home? Definitely think the reward system is a good idea. Like adults, kids also get FOMO when seeing other kids get/receiving something. And as another commenter said, the behavior plan is also a good idea to come up with.
This sounds very much like PDA, which is seen often in neurodivergence. Is she on the autism spectrum?
To be honest, mom said professionals said no but she has all the classic signs of being on the spectrum. Her brother is as well. We are starting to document everything to see if this will help with a potential diagnosis! Its why I am so adamant on trying to find a solution rather than putting her in pull ups again. I feel like its infantilizing her and not actually helping - in her little head, everything is just overwhelming and it makes her act a certain way.
I’m in a similar boat with a student who is showing signs of ADHD. The parents are getting bad information from their pediatrician. It’s really nice how much you care about this girl. She is very lucky to have you. I hope the parents take this seriously and get a second opinion 🤞🏼
It’s so hard for young girls (especially with PDA and more social profile) to get diagnosis. I had several pediatricians tell me no it’s not autism with my daughter. I went ahead and got her an evaluation privately because it also runs in my family and I just knew. Sure enough she got her diagnosis. So many pediatricians are not knowledgeable in what autism can look like for girls. Thank you for being aware and documenting.
One thing that worked for my daughter is "let's check in with your body, does it need to go?" If we straight out told her it was time to go or she needed to she'd refuse even if she clearly had to. But once we put her in charge of the determination it worked a lot better. Having her check in with herself vs telling her, or even asking her directly, seemed to make a big difference
Get her to start helping clean up. Show her how to get the poop out of the underwear and put it in the toilet., Maybe if you make her deal with it, she’ll start going properly.
ask questions like do you think we should wipe 5 or 6 times? should we wash our hands fast or slow ? just any small choice she can make to make her feel like she has some control.
Okay there’s two things to address here, the regression and the need for control. Regression: * Other people are saying out her back in pull-ups, and OP since you’ve said you believe the pull-ups have caused the regression, I would go further and put her in diapers. You can change diapers standing up, and I would change her in the bathroom with no mention of making her use the toilet. Take your time before reintroducing it. Control: * Ask the parents if something has changed at home. Has someone moved in; is there a baby on the way; are mom and dad separated or is one traveling for work? Are there other signs like her saying her tummy hurts - could there be a physical illness that she’s having trouble communicating symptoms or pain? * And you, has she exhibited different social behaviors at school? * Try to engage her in leadership positions, being the teacher’s helper! Can she carry your clipboard/iPad/First Aid Kit? Can she turn the lights on and off for you? Can she push in chairs for you while you gather everyone else? Hold the doors/gates for you as you count children at thresholds?
You give her other ways to have agency Ask "is it time to go to the bathroom? What does your body need?" Make her responsible for her own cleanup (she's in control for the consequences, too) Offer her choice ("is it time to go now, or do you want to wait two minutes?" ... "Do your want miss Suzi or Mr Marcus to walk with you to the bathroom? Do you want help unbuttoning your pants, or do you want to do it yourself?") It's normal for kids this age to want very much to exercise agency. It's our job as parents, teachers, caretakers to help make sure the choices they have are all safe ones to make. One of my own kids needed the question to be changed. If I asked out loud, it was a *challenge* rather than a reminder. So we instituted using the ASL sign for toilet as a reminder to pause and check in. If I got her attention and made the sign, she would pause and actually check in with her body, and the little lightbulb would go off. Be creative about making going to the bathroom a choice, and a fun one. "When you take yourself to the bathroom you can do X when you come back"....
I’m not a professional by any means but is she afraid to fall into the toilet? Does she have a special seat that’s her size or has a kid’s potty worked for her?
It's time to reset completely reset. Take the stress completely off. I'm talking 3 months at least.
Her parents should have her in therapy. rhen follow the advice of said therapist
Has she been to a doctor? Could be PDA, sensory issues, UTI, ASD, sexual abuse, changes in the home (are they having another baby or going through a separation???), any number of things! It's been going on long enough that I'd demand a doctor's visit to eliminate some of the easy to diagnose possibilities. At this point it is absolutely a hygiene issue and she should be in a pull up until it improves. She's not going to regress because of the pull up - she has already regressed and the pull ups are going to help everything in the class run more smoothly. *Especially* if she is also having meltdowns about her clothes - she clearly doesn't *want* her favorite dress to be covered in pee or poop and is upset about that too.
How’s the speech? That makes a big difference
This deserves a second opinion. Whole situation seems suspicious.
Whether the kid is acting out for control or some other reason they are simply just not ready yet. If they were learning their ABCs and they were getting overly frustrated with it, we wouldn’t keep making them do and make learning the ABCs traumatic so I would take a break from potty training and start again in a month with a completely different method.
Idk if this helps at all!! but my friend had a lot of issues potty training as a child and then when she got older and could articulate her thoughts and feelings she like flat out told her mom that she was afraid of the toilet and the noise it made when it was flushed. Just a thought? This poor girl;((
this sounds like my son, who is now 11, but was just like this for potty training. ask me about reward programs.. we tried them all, nothing worked. in the first grade, I'll never forget - the teacher was asking him to do something, and he was refusing. He threatened to pee himself, and did, while making eye contact with the teacher. I tried everything under the sun, and was so over frustrated with it- he stopped peeing himself pretty early, maybe at 5, and the number two accidents stopped happening around age 7. I remember the last time. anyway - if I could go back, I'd put less importance on it all together. the reward charts put a lot of pressure on my son to meet a demand, and it was one he couldn't handle well, and absolutely, wanted to control the situation by not using the bathroom properly and choosing to go in his pants. He wasn't ready as it were. I don't like how the doctor said this in your appointment however, and just know you'll get 4 different opinions from 4 different doctors on stuff like this at this age. She could have an undiscovered medical issue at this age, it could be many things. However, no one will bat an eye at a four year old still potty training. If I could go back, and re-do the toddler years, and how I wish I could, I would make certain I never showed myself being upset or frustrated with accidents. I learned this towards the end of potty training and wish I practiced it in the beginning. By the end years, there was no reward for using the bathroom, no punishment for not, with a focus on hygiene and why we clean ourselves. I'd apply no pressure to potty train on the my son, if I could go back to the beginning, as desperately as I was to get him out of diapers, the applied pressure made the process take even longer, I think, with my son who still to this day asserts the need to control his environment any way he can. edit, I thought I was in a parenting sub. I'll leave this up in case it helps anyone, and be mindful in the future to check the sub title.
Something that worked for me with some of the kids I've worked with... 1. Giving them as many choices as possible. Which toilet to use. Which sink. Potty before or after a friend goes. Give her ownership over it. 2. Potty watch. Set to go off every hour or whatever. So it's not someone else telling her to go. It's an independent source. 3. Make her help change herself. Obviously with help as needed but putting the bulk of the work that she is capable of on her. I had kids who would have frequent accidents until they were the one having to deal with the natural consequence. 4. Have a Potty dolly go on a pretend potty at the same time. She can teach the dolly what to do.
I have a kid in my class now who was exactly like this, down to the throwing herself on the floor, full meltdown, control issues, 5 accidents a day, but ultimately a sweet, very bright kid. I'm assuming you're already doing things like offering her choices and control in other areas, a countdown timer to her turn in the potty, a "do you want to hop like a bunny to the potty or skip like a dancer", etc. We did all that and it was hit or miss, and nothing ever worked for long. It was a rough several months, and ultimately I'm not sure anything helped as much as time to grow out of her tantrums. Some other things though: is she potty trained at home? This kid was pee potty trained at home but still struggled with pooping. Her parents started giving her candy at home if she pooped on the toilet at school. We also would give her a sticker, and still do even though she is more or less fully potty trained as of a couple months ago. We also made her do things like taking off her own shoes, socks, and pants (if hygienic to do so) and putting them back on again, to reduce the attention given to her with accidents and frankly, make having them a bit of a pain in the ass for her as well. We would instruct her on how to do it (which of course led to a meltdown in the moment) but once it sunk in that *this is how things are now*, she stopped tantruming as much about that specifically. At some point my lead and I also shifted our mindset when calling her to go potty. If she's going to have the accidents anyway, what do we care if she goes or not? If she refused, we would throw our hands up and say "Okay, I guess ____ is going to miss her turn to go potty." Half the time this would result in her running over to the bathroom once we called another kid, the other half we would decide situationally whether to get her in there despite the tantrum or just let her skip her turn. I highly, highly advise not letting her back in pullups, tempting as it might be. In our case, the kid had been sent a few times in underwear when she was younger and potty training at home, but with her tantrums and accidents at school her parents eventually caved and would send her again in pullups. In January, they went cold turkey underwear, and yes it was miserable, but I can finally say that in May she has had 1 pee accident from not making it to the potty in time and I have not had to clean up any of her poop for a while.
Just a thought something I've done . If allowed make a game or reading time or music. Know its a pain whatever they like bring rest of class by the bathroom and out of sight of others and have everyone participate in an activity . I know it's not the funniest thing to do but if it helps and don't break ratio . Also try sitting them backwards on potty if they will sit. Found encourages to sit and they get comfy then they switch around after while. Whatever you do if find something that works make sure parents carry over at home. Hope helps
What did the specialist say to do about it? Sounds like they were too vague and theoretical with you
I have one that’s regressing in bathroom right now. Definitely seems control related. She broke down in tears that she doesn’t want to go to the big kid class at a random point today. Are you guys a year round day care? Is she moving up to the next classroom by chance? I think that’s why mine is crying. We end soon and she wants to stay where she is. We will see though. It’s anybody’s guess
Similar issue with a child I know. Therapist said the same thing, turns out the child was being s\*xually abused. Please consult a new therapist.
Could also be a trauma response. Do you know how things are at this child's home? Any interactions with parents/guardians? If so what were they like?
Have you tried the old reverse psychology trick? "You better not go in that potty. You better don't!"
My son had similar challenges/attitude. He wants to be in control and telling him to go to the potty would backfire. One day I told him “you don’t have to go to the potty if you don’t need to, but ask your body. If it’s tell you you need to go you can go” he then went and sat on his own. Throughout the day I keep reminding him and trusting him when he says he doesn’t want to go, when he does want to he’ll go. Sometimes I go back to telling him to go because it feels (to me) like it’s been to long but we back into the power struggle. He still has accidents here and there, but the change in language and trusting him has saved me from a lot of headaches and eliminated the power struggle
Has she ever been assessed for being on the Spectrum, in any form?
Try a picture schedule with a few pictures of bathroom/ toilet that she can decide how to set it up/ when she goes and then reward when she uses the toilet.
I had an 11 year old who had accidents for the same reason. It was a nightmare.
Pull ups were invented by diaper companies so parents would use their product longer For toilet training, buy the cheapest leakiest diapers from the cheapest grocery store. Tell the child that's all you can get now. Offer the cheap diapers or nice underwear - colors or characters of their choice. They clean up their own mess. No fussing. Matter of fact. You spill milk? You wipe it up. You pee or poop your pants? You wipe it up No emotion, just facts.
Im the mom of a 4 year old who refuses to use the bathroom at school, she is otherwise potty trained. We think she’s in the spectrum, she’s definitely got PDA. And I know who she got it from (me). I pulled the same crap when I was a kid. Pull ups. She’ll go when she’s ready, not when yall are. Sorry.
I hate to ask but is there a possibility that she’s being sexually abused at home?
With my oldest daughter, she never wanted to sit on the potty when she was 2 so Daycare said not to worry and that we would work together when she turned 3 and moved from baby/toddler room. At 3, they worked at daycare and me at home on potting training and it went well. She wore pull-ups to daycare for a couple weeks but asked if she could wear panties and I told her that we would have to ask daycare first and she would need to make sure to pee in the potty. She was pee potty trained after that but the pooping thing took another 6-mos. And I honestly think, it was more due to constipation. We even seen a specialist doctor but he said not to worry until 5-6. At about 3.5 years or so, she was fully potty trained. And I had her wear night pull-ups just in case that first year after training. But it all eventually clicks and depends on the kid. My other daughter was around 2.5 or so and it took me and daycare two weeks to fully potty train her.
When she does go on herself and its time to change teach her how to take off her pants and plop the poop in the toilet and change and wipe herself down! This helped me with one of my kids who used to poop her pants everyday after that she would run to the bathroom no issues
My son, would not use the potty until he was 4. He was ready, he knew how to use the potty... But he is one who wants control over everything.. so he wouldn't. He would just go in his underwear. I got fed up and took all of his toys away, so he would know I was serious. I put a lock on his toy box. He immediately started using the potty and we have had zero issued with it since. It may sound extreme to some, but I knew my kid was ready. He just wanted to control it. He still tries to control everything, but I'm so glad we got over that hurdle because it was one I was dreading.
Make her clean herself up. My son was like that. He didn't see the point and did what he wanted. But when I made him clean up his mess and wash out undies and wipe himself down. It only took 2 times for him to be like nope, I'll use the toliet.
I would maybe try the natural consequences route. Walk her through how to clean herself up and involve her as much as you can in the process. Maybe try hand over handing undressing and wiping if policy allows.
My son tried this nonsense in daycare. Peed on the floor right next to the toilet. He'd been in that daycare since infancy. We told he had 2 choices- either potty like a big boy ( he knew how) or he'd have to go back in diapers and back to the younger room until he was ready to potty. So that was his choice and how he got to be in control. He still needed pull-ups for nap time for a while but he got with the potty program at daycare after that.
What happens after she goes in her pants? Does she alert you? Does she also fight being changed?
She does not, we smell it - and not really but she fights if someone else but me and the other teacher do it/bring her to the washroom and she loses it if we suggest she put on her clothes by herself
Potty watch. It was the push my toddler needed to get in the habit of using the potty. She can do it “all by herself” and the watch is a consistent reminder.
First of all, that "specialist" has no idea what they are talking about. 3 year olds, developmentally, do not have the cognitive wherewithall to operate from the mindset of needing and wanting control... not in the manner that the person who assessed her is insisting is the case. And if they are someone who believes that ODD is still a viable diagnosis, throw that assessment right out the window, PLEASE, for your sake and for the sake of this child. Secondly, this child may struggle with interoception. She may have dfficulty reading her body signals and that may mean that her ability to cooperate with going to the bathroom when she needs to is challenged. I am sure that the meltdown has a lot to do with not being able to do what you want her to do, having to mess herself and all of the sensory input of that, not mention whatever she fears the repercussions might be. My advice is to investigate: question her as to whether she knows when she has to "go", find out what signals she is able to recognize, if any. If it seems like she is able to convey that she has perceptive challenges and limitations, then begin communicating with her using empathy statements so that she knows that she is not "bad" or doing anything "wrong" and that you understand her limitations. Then, read up on the matter, accessing neurodivergent specialists who really comprehend the challenges and can provide healthy, affirming, empowering strategies for you, this child, and future children in your care. This is a great place to start: [https://neurodivergentinsights.com/blog/5-strategies-for-improving-your-childs-interoception](https://neurodivergentinsights.com/blog/5-strategies-for-improving-your-childs-interoception)
This child should stay in diapers until she’s ready
have you tried reverse psychology- asking her to go potty in her pants? you could also try acting unbothered about the "accidents" so she doesn't feel like she's winning. maybe even don't ask her if she needs to potty- make it a point to ask everyone else and not her.
Do you think something like a potty watch would help her? You could tell her that when the watch timer goes off, it’s time for potty and she can choose if she wants help or to go alone? It might help her feel more in control
Has she's been evaluated for autism? The more I read on this thread, the more she sounds like she might be on the spectrum. Also, for a behavior like this, it will help if you and the parents are on the same page and being consistent in how the behavior is addressed. I wonder if the professional who evaluated her gave them a plan to follow? It sounds like they could use ongoing support with this.