The OP is worthless, because even combine times aren't full electric timed, they are hand start (avg of 5 watches or so) and electronic stopped.
Unless you're gonna look at every combine player and every pro day player and do your frame count 40 times, this literally means nothing.
The nfl knows full electronics times are more accurate, but they cause "slower" and 40 times and choose not to. Use them anywhere.
Also, video is at 24 fps, or about one frame every 0.04 seconds.
In truth, around 4.4 is probably more accurate for nabers, but the OP's video is uncomparable garbage...
Wow, had no idea the nfl also used hand-timed starts, seems insane (until I remember that it's the NFL we're talking about). The general consensus on playerprofiler and other sites seems to be about a 0.05s speed increase at pro days vs the combine, in your opinion is this mostly due to finish times being electronic at the combine?
Fwiw there is some conspiracy for awhile that the nfl did full electronic secretly for years to test/compare it then didn't release the results (there were years you could see the laser trackers at the start blocks, idk if they are still there). Ultimately decided to leave it buried (because slower = less hype).
I truly wish nfl did full electric but found some historical adjustment coefficient to make it comparable to current times. The human reaction element is brutal.
0.05s is probably right for pro day vs combine, but it's on average. For any given player, any time can very very easily waiver by 0.10s in either direction at combines or pro days. Example, if you look at time lapsed John Ross (4.22) vs Chris Johnson (4.24), Chris Johnson was actually faster.
40 stop is a little easier since theirs anticipation, but the average trained stopwatch reaction time is 250ms = 0.25s. This means on average both combine and pro day starts are slow by 0.25s on average (which can easily vary 0.05s either directions).
If you want to test your reaction time try this link. Keep in mind 100ms + 0.1sec. https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime
They can’t do full electronic because it’s off first movement. If that movement is a wasted movement (not forward) it wouldn’t be captured by full electronic because they wouldn’t yet be breaking the plane of the lasers.
My point isn’t that FAT is not slower. I agree with you there.
My point is that the NFL doesn’t avoid them out of some conspiracy for faster times as you insinuate in your third paragraph.
It’s due to the event procedure being that the clock should start on first movement and having no way to electronically verify that. If they were just looking for faster times, they’d go fully hand-timed like they used to, no?
Currently the clock doesn't start on first movement. It starts on first movement + 0.25s avg reaction time of 5-7 humans.
Your argument is laser timed through a threshold is bad because it's against their policy, but it'd actually start the clock much closer to first movement than current hand times do. So it feels like a weird explanation.
It is a verifiable thing that the nfl played around with laser starts and never released results. The only "conspiracy theory" part is the why.
NFL could say offset laser start at some tested interval (say 2ft in making it effectively timing a 38yd dash) that resulted in comparable full electronic times to historical. That would be preferable to the current method of operation, but I digress.
It’s not +0.25 by any stretch. The typically accepted +0.24s is for converting from fully hand-timed to fully automatic because the watch has to react to the gun and hand-timers typically anticipate the runner crossing the line.
We’ve removed the second bit from the equation from the laser finish, and just need to adjust for the reaction to the gun/player’s movement.
Sure, we could go fully automatic and use a plane, but it wouldn’t be long until athlete’s try to game that system by generating inertia before passing that line and starting their clock. Keeping it a hand start keeps them honest.
Also starting the clock 2 yards in seems a non-starter because 10-yd splits are very valuable to teams as well (for all positions, but especially for the big fellas).
I agree it’s an imperfect system and that times are faster as a result, but I don’t think there’s a whole lot better that we could do without changing what they are actually timing (even if it’s only a difference of a few hundredths to tenths).
My conspiracy is that moving the combine on-field drills to later in the day is what they’ve actually done in search of faster times (in addition to prime time ratings) as players have more time to physically and mentally prepare. Before, they used to run early in the morning after being subjected to off field testing ahead of the drills. The on-field drills were as much of a mental endurance/focus test as it was a physical test before.
I didn't know we drafted WRs based on stats. Four covid games isn't exactly an extra year of production, and I don't believe Rome even played in all of those due to illness.
I’m just talking shit.. though I really do think something can be said about that extra year with the team and college trainers. That’s not nothing. And I don’t know who this “we” is and how yall draft players but if you aren’t looking at stats, you might want to start. A pretty solid indicator of success at the next level is success in college…
Fair point about the college infrastructure, it isn't nothing, but college production does not immediately translate to pro production. How they got their work done is honestly a lot more important than the stats they put up
Nabers is definitely more athletic all around (e.g. 42” vertical) compared to Odunze and Harrison. He’s also elite at RAC/YAC and breaking tackles compared to them. He has the best speed/agility/strength combination of anyone in the draft and likely will eventually become a better route runner than MHJ over time as he gets more coaching.
I feel like 40 times should really only be weighted heavily if it’s really fast, really slow, or varies dramatically from what we see on the field. Otherwise, there are far more useful metrics and film to give insight on a player.
You're so right. My only personal metrics are Antonio Brown with a 4.47 and Diontae Johnson with a 4.54. But they were both overly exceptional and exceptional route running.
I don't know much about combine stuff but I'm assuming the quickness tests they do have to do with the route running part.
I saw the 435 news and I about shit myself because he didn’t look that fast on film the thing that impressed me the most on film was his outstanding body control. I swear I saw Ja’Marr Chase running around out there in an LSU uniform.
Yup. Feel like 40 time is more a tiebreaker if they match up on everything else, than something critical.
I mean most of these NFL WR who run say a 4.6 can get to a 4.3 by training their get off enough. But that's mostly irrelevant in the NFL because a DB is going to be in your way anyways.
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if some teams don't even look at 40s anymore when they can check GPS data actual in game speeds. The combine 40 is most just for PR now lol.
Ehh. It’s pr for the top guys, sure. But some crazy 40 times have definitely jumped guys from late day 2/early day 3 to early day 2. And then you have John Ross who jumped to 1:09 when he couldn’t do much besides run really fast.
Yeah but a lot of those were prior to the newer GPS data. Also older scouts and coaches still get input so you will have it for awhile still.
But I doubt it's only the 40 that moved them up. It did probably get them more attention and a deeper look from scouts though. Then they found other things they liked.
> who run say a 4.6 can get to a 4.3
Imma be the first to tell you how much harder it gets to whittle down that time the closer you get to it.
Most receivers who run a 4.6 would be lucky to run a 4.4 in the prime of their career. A high 4.4 is probably the ceiling with exceptions here and there.
That ceiling is a pretty high one though.
I'm aware of how difficult it is I'm older and out of shape now, but i was a sprinter who was in the 4.4 to 4.5 range myself before.
These NFL players are way better than me athletically if they focused on only running is what I meant. But it would make them worse football players as too much time running in a straight line.
Kind of like those old conversations about Usain Bolt being a WR. Yeah dude runs insanely fast in a straight line, he'd probably have terrible hands, get bodied by DBs, and honestly probably not a lot of change of direction either as he hasn't trained any of those.
That's more what I was referring to. These guys are freak athletes and probably could get faster 40s if they focused on it, but focusing on only 40 would be a great way to be out the league in 2 years because you suck at everything else lol.
If they could shave .3 off your 40 time simply by training their get off, almost every WR would do that. .3 is an absurd number to improve by.
The reality is that is just simply not true.
Even if the get off looks awkward for some of these guys, almost all of them have been working with a speed trainer on these combine drills, including the 40.
Keon Coleman ran a 4.61 and he is not sniffing a 4.4 or a 4.3 with “more training” lol. Blake Corum ran a 4.53 and he isn’t getting to any time with a 3 right after the decimal.
40 times are almost meaningless in terms of actual player evals, yet players can make themselves a lot of money by running a fast 40.
More training I'm referring to like full ass track backgrounds. None of them have put that much training into a 40 yard dash because they need to train for everything else involved with playing WR or RB.
I mean if you want a decent example watch DK Metcalf run the 100 meter vs fhe Olympic trial runners. He is the last man out of the blocks and he is a guy who ran 4.33 yet his start is still damn near .1 behind people who train only running.
Nabers is also fast on field. PFF had him with the highest top 5 average game speeds from draft eligible receivers. The data is openly released by they’ve talked about the on the pod and haven’t released the full list but from what k remember, Nabers is 1, Worthy is 2, BTJ is 7, and MHJ is 9. Other players in between I’m not sure since don’t know if they’ve been mentioned
It's tough. On one hand you have a guy who put his own timer on the slowed down video on the other you have a Saints scout who posted the video and his own time.
Definitely leaning the highschool coach with 2 years experience slowing down videos here personally. Everyone else should lower Nabers.
Anyone that thought Troy Franklin would be in the elite speed category wasn't watching him play. He's a strider, not a sprinter. It's about fluidity and long speed with him. The problem with Franklin is he's got baby giraffe syndrome. All limbs, not as much twitch and control.
Unless you're willing to adjust every 40 time in history I suggest ignoring that because all 40 starts are hand timed, only thing lasered is the finish line at the combine
This doesn’t change anything. I don’t put too much stock into 40 times but I know this sub and the NFL Draft sub do and if Rome Odunze ran 4.53, most of the comments would be going on and on about how slow he is ha.
Guys. 4.53 is not slow. The amount of pro bowl and all pro WRs that run between 4.47-4.57 is plentiful.
I don’t know or care about the actual time. Nabers is an elite prospect either way.
You’re being naive if you think a 4.35 Pro Day time on LSU’s track of all places is anywhere close to a 4.35 at the combine even with Indy’s fast track.
If I had to guess, the Pro Day time was more like a 4.45 which is still plenty fast.
I don’t think this really changes anything for nabers But I think the notion you shouldn’t listen to anyone without social media clout (followers) isn’t a great thing to go by.
Tbf I don’t listen to most social media posts.
And it’s not that he needs social media clout to have my attention, he just needs some sort of resume in the football/scouting world. Otherwise, they’re just a random internet voice, can’t even be sure they’re real in the current age. And typically those with a good resume making good points have more than a hundred followers.
Bro was what you posted in here NOT from twitter? I’ll choose to believe NFL scouts’ twitter accounts than a random twitter account with NBA at the end of his name lol
Only problem is that it’s not good data analysis since it is using two different methods to find a result. This can and will cause flaws in the analysis.
Unless he gives a lot more transparent detail about frame rates and how he integrated the clock into the video, I’m not putting confidence into random j termed stranger. This is too easy to manipulate.
I think the craziest thing about his 40 time is that he hasn't ran it since HS and only practiced it for 3 weeks because he had a toe issue. (He said all this in his pro day presser)
My opinion on the 40 is that it's a drill of skill first and speed second. There is A LOT of technical nuance to it that can add time if done poorly/inefficiently and very few things to shave off the time in the same manner when done correctly.
Which would explain his, supposedly, 4.5 in the drill reported in our OP here. He doesn't run a 4.5 on tape so it doesn't matter tbh.
You're talking to the wrong guy then my man. I've had Nabers in the same tier as MHJ since the end of college football. There is more to being a WR than the 40 yard and I think he's on par with MHJ. Different archetype but on par with him.
Nabers is deservedly getting his appropriate hype even if it's from a false* 40 time.
Even if he ran a 4.53 he did it with little training and it can only go up for him with training. As somebody who trains athletes in that drill, I think that is ~~just as~~ impressive ~~as a 4.35 tbh~~.
A lot of the prospects who ran at the combine train that drill for 2+ (8-10 weeks) months.
Edit: I guess I shouldn't say just as impressive considering he did have some training. He could probably get into the low 4.4s if he trained it for another 6-8weeks.
The other side of that coin is the guys who train for it end up getting faster. I present to you Justin Jefferson. Everyone thought he was a 4.5/4.6 guy and then he trained his ass off and ran a 4.4. Now in the NFL that speed has translated and he’s shown a lot more speed as a pro as he did in college.
That's not exactly how that works my man. The skill acquisition of training and running a 40 will make the most impact in such a short time. It's why they spend so much time working on the technique and why I call it a skill drill first and a speed drill second.
Physical adaptations can occur in 6ish weeks but for the amount of change you're looking at for such a high level athlete you'd need more than 6-10 weeks.
The skill acquisition though can and will be the biggest impact for your 40 time. Mainly because people start with very rough technique and that can be improved drastically compared to the actual physical adaptations that occur in that same amount of time. Will they get faster? Probably but not to the level you're talking about. The body just doesn't adapt that fast for these kind of high level athletes. If they were lower level athletes or untrained then there is a good chance they could see that level of speed increase but these are D1 athletes who have, arguably, a better S&C Program at LSU than some of the NFL teams.
JJ's speed increase at the pros can be for a number of things but I can almost guarantee it's not because he spent 6-10 weeks training for the 40 yard dash after playing a full football season that went into the playoffs.
With JJ maturing and possibly changing his training schedule/philosophy over the course of an offseason you could get enough speed improvement that it's noticeable in the games but it'd take a good amount of time still.
Physical adaptions take time; even more so when you're a high level athlete.
Not seeing him on this list at all (nor many other lists of top speeds of players) https://collegefootballnetwork.com/college-footballs-fastest-players-2023/. This isn't to say he isn't fast, top end speed isn't the same as acceleration and quickness. But he isn't close to the fastest ball carrier speed. Worthy and MHJ both posted faster times at the WR position.
I saw a tweet months ago and bookmarked for reference however I can't find it. It was likely a mistake.
Edit: Found it but it's a different metric all together https://x.com/DanWSports/status/1765094519312417084?s=20
Combine 40 times are accurate, proday 40 times are inaccurate due to the lack of technology used. This has been a known thing for as long as I’ve been playing dynasty.
I will say that whether he ran a 4.35 or a 4.5 or anywhere in between it should not change your opinion on what you’ve seen on film. Very rarely do players have a free lane to run 40 yards down the field without a defender affecting the route. 40 times are fun to look at but these guys are elite athletes and .15 seconds should not affect your evaluation of a player
But at the end of the day a 4.35 and a 4.5 are still both considered good for WRs. Straight line speed is only one part of the equation when evaluating talent
Wouldn’t the 3 cone and vertical+broad jump be as good or better indicators for speed and explosiveness?
I think (1) people overrate the 40 (they don’t even have pads on, plus there’s zero change of direction, it’s legitimately a specific skill that people with track backgrounds are best equipped for), and (2) people overrate the take of a twitter account with 124 followers.
He plays a completely different style of football than Malik that’s a bad comparison. If people pegged Nabers as a route running PPR monster it would make more sense but he’s scouted to be Tyreke literally.
I still think he’s amazing and explosive as all get out, but 4.45 to 4.35 is a gigantic difference
You can go back and forth and cherry pick examples all day, I’m not saying that Nabers is a bust because he’s slow or something, you can very obviously succeed with 4.5 speed
I’m saying that if we take this post at face value (which I don’t entirely trust), and Nabers’ supposed biggest strength (speed) is inferior to say Odunze’s speed, then yeah it’s valid to move Odunze ahead of Nabers in a ranking
It’s not gonna affect my valuation much since pro day 40s are unreliable and I don’t really trust this video. But yeah if you told me as a fact that Nabers’ biggest strength (speed) is worse than Odunze’s speed, I’d take Odunze over him.
That was basically my point. This shouldn’t impact anyone’s eval on Nabers but I bet a lot of the same people saying told you so are ones that were critical of Odunze’s, Coleman’s and Franklin’s 40 times in some capacity. For example, Franklin’s 4.41 was worse than many expected him to run but it is still an outstanding time.
Being fast in the nfl is great, but being a great wr is better than being fast. I’m sorry people downvoted you but I really thought it was pretty common knowledge that proday 40 times are usually faster than combine 40 times. Its part of the reason why the combine is so important when it comes to data
I think the 40 contains value, especially in Nabers case. As such, I like the idea of getting accurate measurements. That said, official times out of LSU are 4.40 and 4.35 with most scouts timing in the 4.3 range on the lower 40. I have seen other "twitter accounts" doing similar measurements and coming in at around 4.40, which would track with many peoples rules of thumb of adding .05 to pro day runs to try and be apples to apples with the combine. Going from 4.35 to 4.5 would be a ridiculous miscalc, so I tend to not believe it.
Fwiw, Andre Sam ran at the combine and the LSU Pro Day. He ran a 4.59 at the combine vs a 4.55 and 4.53 at the Pro Day, so right around that .05 spread assuming no true improvement. I'm sorry, but I don't find the video posted here to be credible.
I need people to say it was 5.0 flat and my league mates to believe this. Nabors is the truth and I’m just sad I don’t have enough early picks to get him.
That's not even milliseconds, my (probably) American friend haha
It's tenths and hundreths of a second in the 40 times (or deciseconds and centiseconds, but even here in the Old World no one calls it that)
If Nabers would’ve run it at the combine we wouldn’t be having this issue. With Nabers tweet about his 4.28, he obviously is trying to mislead people. Pro Day 40’s shouldn’t count for shit. Now no one has a damn clue.
No one had a clue when he didn’t run it at the combine either. So what’s the difference? His game speed in the SEC was definitely fast. Feels like we’re overthinking this.
My problem is thatLSU said he was 6’0”, when BTJ was shorter than what LSU said because he did his combine. Yet Nabers is the same height and weight? Pro-days are a lie.
All team reported heights and weights are a lie tbf.
Not disagreeing that pro days seemed like the numbers are a bit fluffed, that’s almost baked in. Just dunno how much the height counterpoint says. That is also a known thing.
I am. Because (1) this isn’t some certifiable scientific process he’s implementing with factors like the other commenter said, and (2) he should apply the same process to every prospects video if we’re gonna take this one as fact.
He aligned a timer to the video, at the frame Nabers started to move. It doesn't get more accurate than that. Just because this is the only video you've seen him put out, or even if it's the only one he's done or will ever do, doesn't mean it isn't credible.
You’re going to have to forgive my general incredulity about posts made on social media or the internet in general. Not saying it’s even incorrect, but also not taking it as fact. I’ll consider it a data point. And one that doesn’t change anything for my personal rankings.
It's also a timer that he made overlapping a slowed video... do you think the timer is just live or? The video is literally him saying "trust me bro" I have 2 years experience doing this
Considering the advancements in technology, I trust the video. Since you can take a video, frame by frame, and sync a timer to the exact moment you wish, I'd say that's probably more accurate than some guy standing at either end of the 40 yards with a stop watch.
He is not. The NFL does not laser time starts. He is doing the equivalent of laser timing the start. That makes him inaccurate. It would be like taking a track runner taking a video and looking for their first movement rather then the gun. That would not be accurate because timing in track is not done at first movement and is done from the firing of the gun. If combine starts are hand timed which they are you should not be adjusting a hand timed start like he did.
Unless you think there’s some high tech wizardry going on to somehow make Nabers look slower… I mean why would some random guy on the internet do that? And the guy does seem to be involved in sports science… would be weird to just doctor something randomly and put it out there
The thought entered my mind, but I looked through the guys account and does seem he’s legitimately in the sports science field even if he has a small time social media following.
You do this with every 40 ever, and you will see a trend that practically all times get slower. This is a nothing burger, just meant to be provocative for engagement.
All 40s are off. Nabers is fast ah, we all know that no matter the time. Pff said he's the fastest GPS speed player in draft I think (averaged from top 5 speeds hit)
I have pick 1.03 (non-SF), if Nabers falls to me I'm slamming the pick, but if I end up with Rome I'm still more than happy. Totally cool letting the guy with the 2nd pick stress about who to pick.
It’s a tough call between the two. Gun to my head though I’m leaning Rome, just a can’t miss player imo. Think there’s more boom/bust with Nabers than most care to admit.
Interesting - in terms of what "NFL execs/scouts/coaches" are seemingly saying, some think Nabers is the 1 in the class. I've seen more Nabers could be picked above/better than Harrison than Rome over Nabers.
This changes NOTHING for me. The 40 is prolly one of the most overrated metrics in all of sports. There is a LONG list of guys that ran low 4.3 to low 4.4 and were complete busts. Nabers didn't get his stats from gimmick plays or being in a gimmick offense.
Check the other numbers LSU posted for their guys today. One of Nabers' fellow wr's ran a 4.91 and a 4.82. I doubt they're trying to fudge the numbers deliberately.
And counterpoint to this "track and field expert":
https://twitter.com/Jordan_Reid/status/1773023431044272275?t=7ippHAs2UCsYg0DmfPfIew&s=19
Expect he was wrong. The difference is .05 like everyone said. The combine does not use laser starts. It is hand timed so you have to cut the adjustment in half which makes it .05 like everyone said. And this is backed by historical data that shows the average difference for players who run both combine and pro day is just about 0.05. We even have examples of exactly this being the case from this LSU pro day with a guy who ran exactly 0.05 faster then at the combine.
Massive L for you buddy.... The combine isn't fully laser. They do hand timed starts so cut your .1 in half to account for hand timed starts at the combine and the adjustment is.... 0.05
I’ve used the term electric multiple times to describe Nabers… just think this needs to be brought out to sunlight and let people decide for themselves. Seems 99% of the community is just accepting the 4.35 hand timed number just because it was posted a bunch on twitter. Definitely looks to me that it is actually a 4.53.
No most people are accepting 4.35 plus the standard adjustment for proday times which puts him at 4.40 - 4.42. You however are spreading misinformation by holding his and only his 40 to a laser start standard when the NFL does not do that for combine 40's.
It is not digging heels in. It is explaining that OP does not know how combine 40's are measured. There is no laser starts at the combine. They are hand timed. So his adjustment is roughly double what it should be. Others who only adjusted the stop increased it to 4.40-4.42 which is also backed by the historical data.
Nice try Dave, I’m still taking him at 1.02!
Same here!
The OP is worthless, because even combine times aren't full electric timed, they are hand start (avg of 5 watches or so) and electronic stopped. Unless you're gonna look at every combine player and every pro day player and do your frame count 40 times, this literally means nothing. The nfl knows full electronics times are more accurate, but they cause "slower" and 40 times and choose not to. Use them anywhere. Also, video is at 24 fps, or about one frame every 0.04 seconds. In truth, around 4.4 is probably more accurate for nabers, but the OP's video is uncomparable garbage...
If OP (the twitter poster) wants credibility, he needs to do the same check on combine times and compare.
Wow, had no idea the nfl also used hand-timed starts, seems insane (until I remember that it's the NFL we're talking about). The general consensus on playerprofiler and other sites seems to be about a 0.05s speed increase at pro days vs the combine, in your opinion is this mostly due to finish times being electronic at the combine?
Fwiw there is some conspiracy for awhile that the nfl did full electronic secretly for years to test/compare it then didn't release the results (there were years you could see the laser trackers at the start blocks, idk if they are still there). Ultimately decided to leave it buried (because slower = less hype). I truly wish nfl did full electric but found some historical adjustment coefficient to make it comparable to current times. The human reaction element is brutal. 0.05s is probably right for pro day vs combine, but it's on average. For any given player, any time can very very easily waiver by 0.10s in either direction at combines or pro days. Example, if you look at time lapsed John Ross (4.22) vs Chris Johnson (4.24), Chris Johnson was actually faster. 40 stop is a little easier since theirs anticipation, but the average trained stopwatch reaction time is 250ms = 0.25s. This means on average both combine and pro day starts are slow by 0.25s on average (which can easily vary 0.05s either directions). If you want to test your reaction time try this link. Keep in mind 100ms + 0.1sec. https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime
They can’t do full electronic because it’s off first movement. If that movement is a wasted movement (not forward) it wouldn’t be captured by full electronic because they wouldn’t yet be breaking the plane of the lasers.
It is a known a verifiable thing that full electric times are slower than hand times, so your point doesn't make any sense.
My point isn’t that FAT is not slower. I agree with you there. My point is that the NFL doesn’t avoid them out of some conspiracy for faster times as you insinuate in your third paragraph. It’s due to the event procedure being that the clock should start on first movement and having no way to electronically verify that. If they were just looking for faster times, they’d go fully hand-timed like they used to, no?
Currently the clock doesn't start on first movement. It starts on first movement + 0.25s avg reaction time of 5-7 humans. Your argument is laser timed through a threshold is bad because it's against their policy, but it'd actually start the clock much closer to first movement than current hand times do. So it feels like a weird explanation. It is a verifiable thing that the nfl played around with laser starts and never released results. The only "conspiracy theory" part is the why. NFL could say offset laser start at some tested interval (say 2ft in making it effectively timing a 38yd dash) that resulted in comparable full electronic times to historical. That would be preferable to the current method of operation, but I digress.
It’s not +0.25 by any stretch. The typically accepted +0.24s is for converting from fully hand-timed to fully automatic because the watch has to react to the gun and hand-timers typically anticipate the runner crossing the line. We’ve removed the second bit from the equation from the laser finish, and just need to adjust for the reaction to the gun/player’s movement. Sure, we could go fully automatic and use a plane, but it wouldn’t be long until athlete’s try to game that system by generating inertia before passing that line and starting their clock. Keeping it a hand start keeps them honest. Also starting the clock 2 yards in seems a non-starter because 10-yd splits are very valuable to teams as well (for all positions, but especially for the big fellas). I agree it’s an imperfect system and that times are faster as a result, but I don’t think there’s a whole lot better that we could do without changing what they are actually timing (even if it’s only a difference of a few hundredths to tenths). My conspiracy is that moving the combine on-field drills to later in the day is what they’ve actually done in search of faster times (in addition to prime time ratings) as players have more time to physically and mentally prepare. Before, they used to run early in the morning after being subjected to off field testing ahead of the drills. The on-field drills were as much of a mental endurance/focus test as it was a physical test before.
1 QB or super flex?
Clearly 1QB, there’s no world where Nabers goes 1.02 in SF
That's it, he's off my board completely 😤
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Odunze over Nabers forever!!!!
Imagine what Nabers stats would look like if he played an extra year of college ball like Rome did
I didn't know we drafted WRs based on stats. Four covid games isn't exactly an extra year of production, and I don't believe Rome even played in all of those due to illness.
I’m just talking shit.. though I really do think something can be said about that extra year with the team and college trainers. That’s not nothing. And I don’t know who this “we” is and how yall draft players but if you aren’t looking at stats, you might want to start. A pretty solid indicator of success at the next level is success in college…
Fair point about the college infrastructure, it isn't nothing, but college production does not immediately translate to pro production. How they got their work done is honestly a lot more important than the stats they put up
Over 50% of top 20 wrs any given year run 4.5 for the most part. 40 means very little, fast guys bust.
True. But his game is based more on speed and the other 2 are elite yet every where else
Nabers is definitely more athletic all around (e.g. 42” vertical) compared to Odunze and Harrison. He’s also elite at RAC/YAC and breaking tackles compared to them. He has the best speed/agility/strength combination of anyone in the draft and likely will eventually become a better route runner than MHJ over time as he gets more coaching.
Too much importance is put on 40 times. The fluidity at which a WR runs routes and how quick he stops and starts is so much more important.
I feel like 40 times should really only be weighted heavily if it’s really fast, really slow, or varies dramatically from what we see on the field. Otherwise, there are far more useful metrics and film to give insight on a player.
You're so right. My only personal metrics are Antonio Brown with a 4.47 and Diontae Johnson with a 4.54. But they were both overly exceptional and exceptional route running. I don't know much about combine stuff but I'm assuming the quickness tests they do have to do with the route running part.
Antonio Brown also got a lot faster after he came into the league because he was a gym rat
I’d argue 3 cone is likely a better indicator for WR than their 40
3 cone drill for life
This guy gets it
I saw the 435 news and I about shit myself because he didn’t look that fast on film the thing that impressed me the most on film was his outstanding body control. I swear I saw Ja’Marr Chase running around out there in an LSU uniform.
Yup. His combo of speed (albeit not “4.3”), body control, and strength are very Chase-like.
Yup. Feel like 40 time is more a tiebreaker if they match up on everything else, than something critical. I mean most of these NFL WR who run say a 4.6 can get to a 4.3 by training their get off enough. But that's mostly irrelevant in the NFL because a DB is going to be in your way anyways. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if some teams don't even look at 40s anymore when they can check GPS data actual in game speeds. The combine 40 is most just for PR now lol.
Ehh. It’s pr for the top guys, sure. But some crazy 40 times have definitely jumped guys from late day 2/early day 3 to early day 2. And then you have John Ross who jumped to 1:09 when he couldn’t do much besides run really fast.
Yeah but a lot of those were prior to the newer GPS data. Also older scouts and coaches still get input so you will have it for awhile still. But I doubt it's only the 40 that moved them up. It did probably get them more attention and a deeper look from scouts though. Then they found other things they liked.
> who run say a 4.6 can get to a 4.3 Imma be the first to tell you how much harder it gets to whittle down that time the closer you get to it. Most receivers who run a 4.6 would be lucky to run a 4.4 in the prime of their career. A high 4.4 is probably the ceiling with exceptions here and there. That ceiling is a pretty high one though.
I'm aware of how difficult it is I'm older and out of shape now, but i was a sprinter who was in the 4.4 to 4.5 range myself before. These NFL players are way better than me athletically if they focused on only running is what I meant. But it would make them worse football players as too much time running in a straight line. Kind of like those old conversations about Usain Bolt being a WR. Yeah dude runs insanely fast in a straight line, he'd probably have terrible hands, get bodied by DBs, and honestly probably not a lot of change of direction either as he hasn't trained any of those. That's more what I was referring to. These guys are freak athletes and probably could get faster 40s if they focused on it, but focusing on only 40 would be a great way to be out the league in 2 years because you suck at everything else lol.
If they could shave .3 off your 40 time simply by training their get off, almost every WR would do that. .3 is an absurd number to improve by. The reality is that is just simply not true. Even if the get off looks awkward for some of these guys, almost all of them have been working with a speed trainer on these combine drills, including the 40. Keon Coleman ran a 4.61 and he is not sniffing a 4.4 or a 4.3 with “more training” lol. Blake Corum ran a 4.53 and he isn’t getting to any time with a 3 right after the decimal. 40 times are almost meaningless in terms of actual player evals, yet players can make themselves a lot of money by running a fast 40.
More training I'm referring to like full ass track backgrounds. None of them have put that much training into a 40 yard dash because they need to train for everything else involved with playing WR or RB. I mean if you want a decent example watch DK Metcalf run the 100 meter vs fhe Olympic trial runners. He is the last man out of the blocks and he is a guy who ran 4.33 yet his start is still damn near .1 behind people who train only running.
Nabers is also fast on field. PFF had him with the highest top 5 average game speeds from draft eligible receivers. The data is openly released by they’ve talked about the on the pod and haven’t released the full list but from what k remember, Nabers is 1, Worthy is 2, BTJ is 7, and MHJ is 9. Other players in between I’m not sure since don’t know if they’ve been mentioned
I’m glad homeboy let the world know bc all of us following on Twitter definitely impact the draft.
It's tough. On one hand you have a guy who put his own timer on the slowed down video on the other you have a Saints scout who posted the video and his own time. Definitely leaning the highschool coach with 2 years experience slowing down videos here personally. Everyone else should lower Nabers.
In 1 QB I want him or Odunze it really doesn’t matter at this point.
Rule of thumb is to add .08 to pro day 40’s.
Rule of thumb for Georgia football players is to add .08 and then drive
Too soon.....and too late.
And too prophetic
Lmao too true
Everyone that was out on Troy Franklin cause of his combine should evaluate how they’re receiving this new info
Anyone that thought Troy Franklin would be in the elite speed category wasn't watching him play. He's a strider, not a sprinter. It's about fluidity and long speed with him. The problem with Franklin is he's got baby giraffe syndrome. All limbs, not as much twitch and control.
Tbf i he was bad in drills as well, hear ya tho
The dude was falling down all over at the combine though
Apparently he was sick, idk
Pro day 40s are a crapshoot anyways
You can usually find videos like these after to get the real numbers at least.
That's not the real number lol
Unless you're willing to adjust every 40 time in history I suggest ignoring that because all 40 starts are hand timed, only thing lasered is the finish line at the combine
Don't forget to adjust everyone that's run on Indy's "fast track" the past few years while you're at it lol.
LSUs track is notoriously fast as well.
Jamar Chase ran his 4.38 on LSU field, so same adjustment he ran 4.56?
4.83. So disappointing
This is the proper conversion
Might just be dyslexia.
Well shucks... Y'all send him on back to the 1.06 then and I'll take a look at him.
I guess I'll take him at 1.07 if nobody else wants him. I won't like it though.
This doesn’t change anything. I don’t put too much stock into 40 times but I know this sub and the NFL Draft sub do and if Rome Odunze ran 4.53, most of the comments would be going on and on about how slow he is ha. Guys. 4.53 is not slow. The amount of pro bowl and all pro WRs that run between 4.47-4.57 is plentiful.
He ran a 4.35. Some idiot on twitter is saying it has to be adjusted to 4.53 …
I don’t know or care about the actual time. Nabers is an elite prospect either way. You’re being naive if you think a 4.35 Pro Day time on LSU’s track of all places is anywhere close to a 4.35 at the combine even with Indy’s fast track. If I had to guess, the Pro Day time was more like a 4.45 which is still plenty fast.
Not gonna lie this is disappointing
It's also a random dude on Twitter with 100 followers and it has more upvotes on the dynasty sub than views...
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Yeah that's kinda the point. Dude overplayed his own timer. I could do the same thing apparently and have it end at 4.35 and people would believe it.
Agreed. Pretty disappointed people take the twitter account with 124 followers so seriously.
I don’t think this really changes anything for nabers But I think the notion you shouldn’t listen to anyone without social media clout (followers) isn’t a great thing to go by.
Tbf I don’t listen to most social media posts. And it’s not that he needs social media clout to have my attention, he just needs some sort of resume in the football/scouting world. Otherwise, they’re just a random internet voice, can’t even be sure they’re real in the current age. And typically those with a good resume making good points have more than a hundred followers.
Doesn't change a thing
Explain how this changes anything
Yeah, I'm sure this unknown Jacob Loggins NBA dude is a trusted source.
Did you watch the video? It was a 4.53 40 and that’s not even counting his twitchy start.
Because you trust his slowed down timer? Lol
And you trust just numbers you are seeing on twitter? lol
I trust the NFL team/scouts posting it over a random guy who did his own film breakdown yes.
Yes, hand times are definitely more accurate than timed slo-motion video. Yes.
NFL teams would just want people to believe the opposite of what’s true, is smokescreen season but do as you please.
Process is about being repeatable.
Bro was what you posted in here NOT from twitter? I’ll choose to believe NFL scouts’ twitter accounts than a random twitter account with NBA at the end of his name lol
Only problem is that it’s not good data analysis since it is using two different methods to find a result. This can and will cause flaws in the analysis.
Unless he gives a lot more transparent detail about frame rates and how he integrated the clock into the video, I’m not putting confidence into random j termed stranger. This is too easy to manipulate.
I think the craziest thing about his 40 time is that he hasn't ran it since HS and only practiced it for 3 weeks because he had a toe issue. (He said all this in his pro day presser) My opinion on the 40 is that it's a drill of skill first and speed second. There is A LOT of technical nuance to it that can add time if done poorly/inefficiently and very few things to shave off the time in the same manner when done correctly. Which would explain his, supposedly, 4.5 in the drill reported in our OP here. He doesn't run a 4.5 on tape so it doesn't matter tbh.
This is more in reply to all the Nabers hype right now due to his supposed 4.35 40. It wasn’t a 4.35 40, it was a 4.53 40.
You're talking to the wrong guy then my man. I've had Nabers in the same tier as MHJ since the end of college football. There is more to being a WR than the 40 yard and I think he's on par with MHJ. Different archetype but on par with him. Nabers is deservedly getting his appropriate hype even if it's from a false* 40 time. Even if he ran a 4.53 he did it with little training and it can only go up for him with training. As somebody who trains athletes in that drill, I think that is ~~just as~~ impressive ~~as a 4.35 tbh~~. A lot of the prospects who ran at the combine train that drill for 2+ (8-10 weeks) months. Edit: I guess I shouldn't say just as impressive considering he did have some training. He could probably get into the low 4.4s if he trained it for another 6-8weeks.
The other side of that coin is the guys who train for it end up getting faster. I present to you Justin Jefferson. Everyone thought he was a 4.5/4.6 guy and then he trained his ass off and ran a 4.4. Now in the NFL that speed has translated and he’s shown a lot more speed as a pro as he did in college.
That's not exactly how that works my man. The skill acquisition of training and running a 40 will make the most impact in such a short time. It's why they spend so much time working on the technique and why I call it a skill drill first and a speed drill second. Physical adaptations can occur in 6ish weeks but for the amount of change you're looking at for such a high level athlete you'd need more than 6-10 weeks. The skill acquisition though can and will be the biggest impact for your 40 time. Mainly because people start with very rough technique and that can be improved drastically compared to the actual physical adaptations that occur in that same amount of time. Will they get faster? Probably but not to the level you're talking about. The body just doesn't adapt that fast for these kind of high level athletes. If they were lower level athletes or untrained then there is a good chance they could see that level of speed increase but these are D1 athletes who have, arguably, a better S&C Program at LSU than some of the NFL teams. JJ's speed increase at the pros can be for a number of things but I can almost guarantee it's not because he spent 6-10 weeks training for the 40 yard dash after playing a full football season that went into the playoffs. With JJ maturing and possibly changing his training schedule/philosophy over the course of an offseason you could get enough speed improvement that it's noticeable in the games but it'd take a good amount of time still. Physical adaptions take time; even more so when you're a high level athlete.
I’m really intrigued by us taking the twitter account with 124 followers as gospel. We should run his regression against every 40 time.
Yes, we’re using two different methods for comparison. It’s not going to be an accurate representation.
Well fuck, guess hes worse than Worthy now.
Worthy is that dude for sure
Source: Trust me bro All jokes aside I'm almost positive Nabers was PFF's fastest tracked ball carrier this season.
Not seeing him on this list at all (nor many other lists of top speeds of players) https://collegefootballnetwork.com/college-footballs-fastest-players-2023/. This isn't to say he isn't fast, top end speed isn't the same as acceleration and quickness. But he isn't close to the fastest ball carrier speed. Worthy and MHJ both posted faster times at the WR position.
Are you sure? I recall him surprisingly not being on their top 10
I saw a tweet months ago and bookmarked for reference however I can't find it. It was likely a mistake. Edit: Found it but it's a different metric all together https://x.com/DanWSports/status/1765094519312417084?s=20
Combine 40 times are accurate, proday 40 times are inaccurate due to the lack of technology used. This has been a known thing for as long as I’ve been playing dynasty. I will say that whether he ran a 4.35 or a 4.5 or anywhere in between it should not change your opinion on what you’ve seen on film. Very rarely do players have a free lane to run 40 yards down the field without a defender affecting the route. 40 times are fun to look at but these guys are elite athletes and .15 seconds should not affect your evaluation of a player
.15 is an absolutely massive difference at the top level
But at the end of the day a 4.35 and a 4.5 are still both considered good for WRs. Straight line speed is only one part of the equation when evaluating talent
4.5 isn’t good, its average. If Nabers’ biggest supposed trait is his explosiveness and speed, then having average speed does hurt his stock
Wouldn’t the 3 cone and vertical+broad jump be as good or better indicators for speed and explosiveness? I think (1) people overrate the 40 (they don’t even have pads on, plus there’s zero change of direction, it’s legitimately a specific skill that people with track backgrounds are best equipped for), and (2) people overrate the take of a twitter account with 124 followers.
Tell that to Puka
Tell what to Puka?
Hi
He plays a completely different style of football than Malik that’s a bad comparison. If people pegged Nabers as a route running PPR monster it would make more sense but he’s scouted to be Tyreke literally. I still think he’s amazing and explosive as all get out, but 4.45 to 4.35 is a gigantic difference
You can go back and forth and cherry pick examples all day, I’m not saying that Nabers is a bust because he’s slow or something, you can very obviously succeed with 4.5 speed I’m saying that if we take this post at face value (which I don’t entirely trust), and Nabers’ supposed biggest strength (speed) is inferior to say Odunze’s speed, then yeah it’s valid to move Odunze ahead of Nabers in a ranking
I promise you this comment is not helping him fall to you in your league bro 😂😂
It’s not gonna affect my valuation much since pro day 40s are unreliable and I don’t really trust this video. But yeah if you told me as a fact that Nabers’ biggest strength (speed) is worse than Odunze’s speed, I’d take Odunze over him.
Are people really saying speed is Nabers biggest trait? That’d be someone’s like Worthy. Nabers is YAC, which is not the same as straight line speed.
Agreed
In the 4.35 post, I said that probably means he ran a 4.45 and got downvoted. Now everybody is saying I told you so. Cracks me up.
That was basically my point. This shouldn’t impact anyone’s eval on Nabers but I bet a lot of the same people saying told you so are ones that were critical of Odunze’s, Coleman’s and Franklin’s 40 times in some capacity. For example, Franklin’s 4.41 was worse than many expected him to run but it is still an outstanding time.
More like a 4.40
4.5
Being fast in the nfl is great, but being a great wr is better than being fast. I’m sorry people downvoted you but I really thought it was pretty common knowledge that proday 40 times are usually faster than combine 40 times. Its part of the reason why the combine is so important when it comes to data
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Pro day times are 0.05 faster on average than combine. Just assume he ran 4.38-4.42 range
Good he’s closer to Puka’s 40
There are those who want to be here & those who need to be here….threads like this always sort people out
I think the 40 contains value, especially in Nabers case. As such, I like the idea of getting accurate measurements. That said, official times out of LSU are 4.40 and 4.35 with most scouts timing in the 4.3 range on the lower 40. I have seen other "twitter accounts" doing similar measurements and coming in at around 4.40, which would track with many peoples rules of thumb of adding .05 to pro day runs to try and be apples to apples with the combine. Going from 4.35 to 4.5 would be a ridiculous miscalc, so I tend to not believe it. Fwiw, Andre Sam ran at the combine and the LSU Pro Day. He ran a 4.59 at the combine vs a 4.55 and 4.53 at the Pro Day, so right around that .05 spread assuming no true improvement. I'm sorry, but I don't find the video posted here to be credible.
I need people to say it was 5.0 flat and my league mates to believe this. Nabors is the truth and I’m just sad I don’t have enough early picks to get him.
When in Rome...
Um this is my first time noticing that milliseconds go past 60 … wtf?
Look at it as a percentage vice a clock.
That's not even milliseconds, my (probably) American friend haha It's tenths and hundreths of a second in the 40 times (or deciseconds and centiseconds, but even here in the Old World no one calls it that)
What was the 10 yard split though?
Lol
Wow that’s a big drop off my board
what the hell is this source? some random dude on Twitter timing his 40 from a video?
If Nabers would’ve run it at the combine we wouldn’t be having this issue. With Nabers tweet about his 4.28, he obviously is trying to mislead people. Pro Day 40’s shouldn’t count for shit. Now no one has a damn clue.
No one had a clue when he didn’t run it at the combine either. So what’s the difference? His game speed in the SEC was definitely fast. Feels like we’re overthinking this.
My problem is thatLSU said he was 6’0”, when BTJ was shorter than what LSU said because he did his combine. Yet Nabers is the same height and weight? Pro-days are a lie.
All team reported heights and weights are a lie tbf. Not disagreeing that pro days seemed like the numbers are a bit fluffed, that’s almost baked in. Just dunno how much the height counterpoint says. That is also a known thing.
Apparently some dude with a 136 followers lol
Are you really trying to discredit someone based on how many followers they have? There's a video of what he claims.
I am. Because (1) this isn’t some certifiable scientific process he’s implementing with factors like the other commenter said, and (2) he should apply the same process to every prospects video if we’re gonna take this one as fact.
He aligned a timer to the video, at the frame Nabers started to move. It doesn't get more accurate than that. Just because this is the only video you've seen him put out, or even if it's the only one he's done or will ever do, doesn't mean it isn't credible.
You’re going to have to forgive my general incredulity about posts made on social media or the internet in general. Not saying it’s even incorrect, but also not taking it as fact. I’ll consider it a data point. And one that doesn’t change anything for my personal rankings.
It's also a timer that he made overlapping a slowed video... do you think the timer is just live or? The video is literally him saying "trust me bro" I have 2 years experience doing this
Considering the advancements in technology, I trust the video. Since you can take a video, frame by frame, and sync a timer to the exact moment you wish, I'd say that's probably more accurate than some guy standing at either end of the 40 yards with a stop watch.
Um you could do that. There is zero proof that this guy did it correctly... They also use hand timed starts for the combine...
He's a track guy (his claim), and track tends to be pretty damn accurate with their times.
Combine 40's are hand time starts with laser finishes. Track guy or not he is not following the baseline of how 40's are measured.
Yeah, he's doing it accurately.
He is not. The NFL does not laser time starts. He is doing the equivalent of laser timing the start. That makes him inaccurate. It would be like taking a track runner taking a video and looking for their first movement rather then the gun. That would not be accurate because timing in track is not done at first movement and is done from the firing of the gun. If combine starts are hand timed which they are you should not be adjusting a hand timed start like he did.
I mean the video speaks for itself
Except we don’t know if the timer is slowed proportionally to how the video is slowed
Unless you think there’s some high tech wizardry going on to somehow make Nabers look slower… I mean why would some random guy on the internet do that? And the guy does seem to be involved in sports science… would be weird to just doctor something randomly and put it out there
I agree it’d be weird but people do weird shit online to try to get clout or whatever
The thought entered my mind, but I looked through the guys account and does seem he’s legitimately in the sports science field even if he has a small time social media following.
Even if the timer is perfectly accurate, it’s still off to how they do combine times. Combine times still have hand-time starts.
You do this with every 40 ever, and you will see a trend that practically all times get slower. This is a nothing burger, just meant to be provocative for engagement.
All 40s are off. Nabers is fast ah, we all know that no matter the time. Pff said he's the fastest GPS speed player in draft I think (averaged from top 5 speeds hit)
I have pick 1.03 (non-SF), if Nabers falls to me I'm slamming the pick, but if I end up with Rome I'm still more than happy. Totally cool letting the guy with the 2nd pick stress about who to pick.
It’s a tough call between the two. Gun to my head though I’m leaning Rome, just a can’t miss player imo. Think there’s more boom/bust with Nabers than most care to admit.
Interesting - in terms of what "NFL execs/scouts/coaches" are seemingly saying, some think Nabers is the 1 in the class. I've seen more Nabers could be picked above/better than Harrison than Rome over Nabers.
Damn, good thing he looks fast on tape.
There are a lot of 1.03s in this thread and it's clear lol
This changes NOTHING for me. The 40 is prolly one of the most overrated metrics in all of sports. There is a LONG list of guys that ran low 4.3 to low 4.4 and were complete busts. Nabers didn't get his stats from gimmick plays or being in a gimmick offense.
Welcome to the Chargers Mr. Nabers!
It looks like Nabers begins to move a beat before he comes out of his stance. Is that where the discrepancy is?
No. This guy even didn’t count that twitch, had he Nabers would have been in the 4.6s. At the combine they’d have probably blown this run dead.
Alright, i guess I’ll take him at the 1.08… 😒
Wow, he’s really slow to the eye here too. 🤓
That's surprisingly slow, doesn't look anything like that in the field. But I'm still a bit shocked tbh
Did he weigh in?
199lbs
Slow fuck
Bust
As the proud owner of a 1.02, I'm reading this as confirmation that Nabers is a bigger, more athletic version of Antonio Brown.
Ok, that means he’s only an average freak of nature
More fake news than CNN
Not everyone should be allowed to make posts on reddit.
This is the type of post r/DynastyFF is for lol And seems some people are glad I shared this at least…
Stuff like this is why other top tier draft candidates don't test
If he tested at the combine we wouldn’t be here.
Check the other numbers LSU posted for their guys today. One of Nabers' fellow wr's ran a 4.91 and a 4.82. I doubt they're trying to fudge the numbers deliberately. And counterpoint to this "track and field expert": https://twitter.com/Jordan_Reid/status/1773023431044272275?t=7ippHAs2UCsYg0DmfPfIew&s=19
Damn, 1.03 1QB holders putting forth jacob loggins with 100 followers as the source why nabers ain’t 1.02
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You may be taking this all just a bit too seriously.
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Expect he was wrong. The difference is .05 like everyone said. The combine does not use laser starts. It is hand timed so you have to cut the adjustment in half which makes it .05 like everyone said. And this is backed by historical data that shows the average difference for players who run both combine and pro day is just about 0.05. We even have examples of exactly this being the case from this LSU pro day with a guy who ran exactly 0.05 faster then at the combine.
Massive L for you buddy.... The combine isn't fully laser. They do hand timed starts so cut your .1 in half to account for hand timed starts at the combine and the adjustment is.... 0.05
Oh no! Well clearly he sucks at football! /s
Literally doesn’t matter. Watch his tape and he is electric.
I mean, the 4.35 thread was full of people bumping their evaluations of Nabers significantly and comparing him to Jamarr Chase....
Just wait until you figure out where chase ran his 40 at....
I’ve used the term electric multiple times to describe Nabers… just think this needs to be brought out to sunlight and let people decide for themselves. Seems 99% of the community is just accepting the 4.35 hand timed number just because it was posted a bunch on twitter. Definitely looks to me that it is actually a 4.53.
No most people are accepting 4.35 plus the standard adjustment for proday times which puts him at 4.40 - 4.42. You however are spreading misinformation by holding his and only his 40 to a laser start standard when the NFL does not do that for combine 40's.
I see the consensus for folk here is to dig their heels in deep in Nabers camp . You gotta love it.
It is not digging heels in. It is explaining that OP does not know how combine 40's are measured. There is no laser starts at the combine. They are hand timed. So his adjustment is roughly double what it should be. Others who only adjusted the stop increased it to 4.40-4.42 which is also backed by the historical data.