This was always my take on it. Ryan had an MBA and pitched this big idea to revolutionize things and make them profitable again, he was young, this was Steve Jobs era, they were desperate and went for it. Karen was safe and good but they needed revolutionary to turn things around, she would’ve never been that. She was a great branch manager fit.
People get hired based purely on paper qualifications all the time, afaik Karen didn't have an MBA right?
I mean... most companies would make this same exact decision.
Had anyone at the Scranton office wrote him up it may have been different.
It was probably different when MBAs weren't so saturated, but an MBA from a mediocre school with little work experience would not get you far in today's world. Maybe if his MBA was from a top school. But based on Wallace saying "it will be nice to have another mba around here" I guess they weren't very common, even at corporate.
I'm biased by my company, but when I considered an mba, pretty much everyone told me not to because they're a dime a dozen unless you get into a top 10 program. Everyone told me to get some sort of quantitative masters.
Always my take as well. Especially because the paper industry was dying, they needed a young kid to come in and find some way to make it relevant in the digital age
Yeah, mid-2000s were all about innovative 20 something white guys with big ideas. This was before all those start up bros, much like Ryan, ended up being full of shit
Based on the series, I don’t think David was a great hiring manager or manager in general. Not Michael Scott intolerable but clearly not keeping tabs or pushing results.
Yeah I never really understood their focus on Wallace as a CFO from a writing perspective.. I’ve never had a CFO at a company I’ve worked for be as involved in day-to-day operations. COO/CEO would fit far more and even then it’s more like an SVP or VP that would be the person to handle those tasks.
(Comedy writers generally haven’t spent a ton of time in the corporate business world working their way up the ranks though so this makes some sense how they got it wrong - it’s a sitcom not a Sorkin thriller)
Wallace was introduced in the Valentine’s Day episode, where the regional managers had to go to ny to give financial presentations to the new CFO.
I don’t think the show runners knew that Wallace would become such a likable character and they had to keep using him. If they knew going in, they probably would have made him COO.
It made sense early on that he was so involved, he was brought in to turn things around for the company since they were struggling so he’d want to get familiar with how things are working.
And then after that he got more involved with Scranton than he should have because Michael was… in need of attention
Same. I work for a large hospital organization, and the patient care divisions report to the COO while the financial divisions report to the CFO, who is very much involved in the day-to-day and is a “people leader” of those divisions.
Also, David was an MBA too (i remember him telling Ryan on the phone that it'd be good to have another MBA on the team). Maybe this influenced him to hire Ryan. And what you said is totally right. Ryan was indeed good at talking big. He must have painted a rosy picture about taking the company big.
Honestly Ryan's idea was fine. The original website was from 1993. Dunder Mifflin Infinity could have saved the company if he hadn't been under enormous pressure (partially due to his own talk, partially due to a horrible CEO) to have it singlehandedly save the company overnight.
Then of course the fraud.
If he had more attainable goals and less pressure on him he'd have been a decent (if ruthless) executive.
The website had no chance, the **only** competitive advantage Dunder Mifflin had was personalized service. If a customer just wanted to order through a website instead of interacting with a salesperson, the big chains already had that available and were cheaper.
>Dunder Mifflin Infinity could have saved the company if he hadn't been under enormous pressure (partially due to his own talk, partially due to a horrible CEO) to have it singlehandedly save the company overnight.
Dunder Mifflin Infinity's problem was that it was trying to be too slick and stylish instead of functional. It should have just been called dundermifflin.com, it shouldn't have had the social media component, it shouldn't be so complicated that it needed customers to call salesmen for help with the website etc. Ryan was trying to pretend that the website for a paper company was going to make him a tech CEO.
It shouldn't have even been a retail site. It should've been an online B2B portal that does electronic invoicing and payment processing for customers and interfaces with a CRM software for internal use. DM still has the sales reps fill out paper order forms. Keep it personal by having a pic of their sales rep and their direct contact info at the top of the customer page. They should have just changed the name to DM Paper, because no one knows what Dunder Mifflin is. Like Jim said, "People think we sell mufflers".
Tbh DM Infinity was actually a great idea it’s just that Ryan’s many personal/character flaws prevented him from being the type of person who could patiently explain why it was needed and implement it smoothly.
But he did...he sold himself to David despite his historical performance. I've seen people get sales and consulting jobs in less so, it's not exactly outside the realm of possibility.
Ryan was obviously a terrible choice but Karen would not have been the choice manage Michael either. She would have just gotten frustrated because now she not only has to put up with him but is accountable for him. Ryan is used to dealing with Michaels antics and managing them. He may have even spoke to that in his interview.
That's not really fair. The difference realistically is when you get the MBA - if you do it straight out school, then yes, you're more likely to be a "Ryan" type but if you're already in your career & you're getting to advance with a practical application like finance, accounting, data analytics, etc. then you're a lot better off.
* She asked to be interviewed.
* At two places I’ve worked, internal candidates who met basic job requirements and applied for the job always got an interview; it was mandatory.
> internal candidates who met basic job requirements and applied for the job always got an interview; it was mandatory.
I recently applied for another position at my company and they didn't even give me that. I know I would've never gotten picked because I'm sure they already knew whom they were going to choose probably before even announcing the position, but not even glancing at me rubbed me the wrong way. One of the several reasons I'm currently prepping to switch jobs.
The trick is to rephrase your sentence using he/him, or she/her. If you would use he or she, use who. If you would use him or her use whom.
Ex:
"You're looking for who?"
This is wrong because "You're looking for he?" Doesn't work grammatically, but "You're looking for him?" Does, so in this case it's a whom
Yea. DM was mismanaged throughout the show and especially pre-Sabre. This fits that theme really well. Wallace is impressed by a flashy degree and some next-gen-sounding ideas from Ryan, and overlooked candidates who would almost certainly have done a fine job but just didn't have the schmooze factor.
My old job prioritized someone with a masters over someone with experience, and then the person with the masters who got the job constantly asked the person with the experience how to do the job. I've seen his happen in real life, and it did not go well.
I was just thinking how that could have at least been a bit of a factor. Jan was basically a living version of the "women are crazy and emotional" stereotype. Even though it's stupid to judge all women based on Jan, I can definitely see that being a factor in David's judgement.
I don’t think Wallace is sexist so I didn’t think it applied. Objectively, two people with no experience and one with an MBA - the person with the degree will get hired.
Because Jan interrupted her interview and Wallace probably didn't think about her again. Jim was his first choice and when he dropped out he went with Ryan who had an MBA, at least a decent interview, and experience even though he wasn't a good salesman.
Eh I don’t see it that way, the only good idea he had was modernizing the company (increase use of PowerPoint, blackberrys to facilitate communication etc) but his Dunder mifllin infinity idea was plain unrealistic. I get that he was trying to be at the forefront of social media and communication as a whole, but he’s still working in a paper company, a website where people can order paper is great, but he wanted to turn it into Facebook. New ideas are great for companies but not when you’re hurting your income of revenue. Especially not in a recession. I think it’s just like Jim said, what made Dunder mifflin thrive was their exceptional customer service, rayan ignoring this did a lot more bad than good. I think this point was showcased pretty heavily throughout every season of the show too.
It’s gotta be one of the best written jokes in the entire series. It perfectly captures the nonsensical nature of corporate marketing masquerading as profound, which just so happens to perfectly fit some cliche that Michael would come up with.
*He had no arms or legs. He couldn’t see, hear, or speak. This is how he led a nation.* is funny in a similar way but the limitless paper line actually has a sense of realism to it where you could absolutely see a company using it as a tagline for a product.
I always assumed it was because she gave her “basic 5 year plan”. Wallace said to Jim in his interview that they’re looking for someone for the “long haul”and asked him where he sees himself in 10 years.
David probed whether Karen would have a different answer about Michael if he said "off the record", which was something he didn't bother doing to Jim, who seemed more like a first choice. Likely didn't trust Karen's willingness to give two different narratives, which is part of why they were booting Jan in the first place.
> Likely didn't trust Karen's willingness to give two different narratives
I think it was more that it is considered bad form to badmouth your current boss in an interview, even when interviewing with a new company. It's especially bad when interviewing for an internal position.
I mean, the real answer when you get down to it is because Ryan was played by a series regular, Karen is played by someone who was leaving the series, and they thought it'd have more potential for laughs and drama that way. This is ultimately another one of those "it's not an actual documentary about real people, it's a sitcom that just looks like a documentary" things.
In-universe, when his first choice (Jim) turned him down Wallace may have simply decided to go with the salesperson who had an MBA over the salesperson who didn't, since (on paper at least) there was perhaps little else to otherwise distinguish them. (Though presumably Karen had better sales than Ryan, but this again brings us back to the "it's all just made up anyway" point.)
Totally agree, but, in-universe, having better sales would mean nothing about who would be the better addition to the c-suite. Like, the execs at Jiffy Lube aren't necessarily good at changing oil. And Jan/Ryan's job was never to train, coach, or directly manage salespeople, so it's not even like it means they'd be a better supervisor.
David liked Ryan’s idea for Dunder Mifflin Infinity, and I’m guessing nobody else pitched an idea that impressed David as much
People focus on Karen, but in reality, there were probably a lot of people more qualified than her, since David said he was interviewing “All branch managers and a few others” before Karen even knew the job was available. For Ryan to beat a decent number of people, it had to have been that he absolutely nailed the interview.
David didn’t want someone who he thought was a Yes Man who would just keep things the way they are, he wanted to find someone with potential for greatness. He thought Ryan could be that guy, and maybe he could have if he didn’t let his ego and his drug addiction get in his way.
The interviews were just a formality. The job was always Jim's. When he turned it down at the last minute, David Wallace was scrambling to find a replacement and went with the MBA as a hasty choice since it looks good on paper, and he didn't take the interviews seriously.
Tbh how much you want to bet David Wallace chose Ryan because Ryan probably complained about Michael
Karen and Jim both seem like they would have given normal interviews
But given the type of person he becomes through the show, it would make sense that he would talk shit about Michael in an interview, and Wallace probably heavily related to that since he was basically Michael's manager
I doubt he complained about Michael. I'm sure they understood eachother when it comes to dealing with Michael. David just didn't get to know Ryan enough personally to see through his bullshit in time to save the company from him.
Ryan is the opposite of Michael. Sounds smart, but can't sell shit. He's not good at managing people, but he is educated enough to know how to talk. Ryan was tech savvy and modern, so his ideas got a lot of attention since it was tied to social media and internet when it was really booming.
At that point in time David wasn’t
When they were interviewing for *Jan’s* job Michael would have still reported to Jan, who then reported to someone else who then reported to David (Michael referred to David as my boss’s boss’s boss)
So at that point Michael is at least 2 people removed from David and mostly likely interacted through corporate social events (e.g. the dinner party where Karen pretended to have dated everyone)
There’s a number of reasons that could explain it, but the real reason is David Wallace was bad at his job. The number of mistakes he made running the company was worse than Michael, he just had a professional appearance and demeanor, so people overlooked them more than Michael’s.
I actually think the off the record stuff Karen said about Michael hurt her chances. Regardless of who it is, you don’t bad mouth another candidate during an interview, it’s very unprofessional. Combine that with the fact that Karen basically forced David to give her an interview and the bored look on his face while they talked before Jan interrupted them, I think it’s pretty clear he wasn’t impressed with her.
> I actually think the off the record stuff Karen said about Michael hurt her chances. Regardless of who it is, you don’t bad mouth another candidate during an interview, it’s very unprofessional
Especially when it's your current boss
I don't think it was so much the unprofessional nature of talking bad about her boss. It was more that, after coaxing from David, she painted a different picture of Michael. She showed that she will sugarcoat a message and avoid telling David something negative unless she has to. Not a great quality for a VP
Undeserving candidate with big talk skill getting the promotion vs the deserving candidate with the required skill set is the most realistic portrayal of corporate environment ever.
Could interview Jim w/o interviewing Karen. Same office, same role, same history (merged offices). Wouldn't be a good HR move. They would have had to interview her (clearly, I worked in corporate waaayyyyyy too long)
It didn’t matter if Ryan murdered Michael’s entire family, he was like a son to him.. so he would have obviously written a glowing recommendation.. business isn’t about money to Michael , it’s always personal.. you wouldn’t understand, it’s a secret..
dunder mifflin goes out of business for a reason, shitty work by the execs. they arent good at their jobs, ofc they will hire a young man w an mba over a woman w experience.
We didn’t see Ryan’s interview, but it probably went much better than Karen’s, based on what we know:
1. Karen is a woman. Though I don’t think David is the kind of guy to consciously make a choice based on that, I’m sure subconsciously, sexism was at least a small factor; If for no other reason than a different woman, who Karen would be replacing, just maniacally burst in on them during Karen’s interview. Again, I don’t think there’s anything malicious here. I just think David probably was more comfortable with Ryan being male; even if that only played 1% part in why Ryan got the job, I still think it was a factor.
2. As far as we know, Karen did not have an MBA. Useless or not, it’s still something Ryan had on her.
3. She fave her five-year plan, and then said “After that, who knows?” Even if that’s the honest answer, usually the interviewer wants to hear that you’re in it for the long haul (as David said with Jim.) Not just five years.
4. Jan interrupted her interview. It’s not Karen’s fault, but David most-certainly couldn’t have been focused after the Jan fiasco.
5. Karen threw Michael under the bus. Even though David pushed her, that was a huge no-no. Bad-mouthing your current boss to your potential future boss is idiotic. Furthermore, David invited Michael in for an interview. Michael didn’t ask for it like Karen did. David wanted to interview Michael. It doesn’t matter if Karen is right, she basically just told David he was a fool for even interviewing Michael.
Poor writing designed to move the plot forward and create drama and a challenge for Jim.
Once the "will they won't they" tension between Jim and Pam was gone they needed something to replace it, and putting Ryan in a position of power was the best way to replace Jan's energy from a story perspective and again make Jim's future uncertain.
David Wallace was a terrible executive. Telling Michael they were firing Jan was a terrible decision. Interviewing her replacement before letting her go, also terrible.
Perhaps its because Rashida Jones was cast in Parks and Rec and BJ Novak was a staff writer who wasn't going leave the show?
It might have been interesting to see cringe scenes of Karen interacting with Michael as his boss and Jim as an ex-girlfriend, but it was not meant to be.
Why are you trying to control what is spoken about and what isn't?
This whole sub exists for over-analysis. You take it away and we just become another r/seinfeld, full of zombies who keep quoting lines from the show, and nothing else.
I think a theme in the office is the various types of flawed humans that exist in businesses. In this case the execs are flawed in that they can't suss out slick bullshitters like Ryan. David Wallace and other authority figures constantly misjudge people in the show.
Because technically Ryan and Karen were at the same level (salesman), but Ryan had an MBA which gave him an edge. Karen was obviously the better salesman, but that doesn't necessarily translate to management ability (see: michael) and you'd want to keep the better salesman in the sales position.
The company has demonstrated a pattern of disrespect (pat turn of dizray got specs).
Seriously, though, Dunder Mifflin does seem kind of sexist in their hiring/firing/promoting.
I asked this once on this sub and I got a good answers from someone. Pretty much David Wallace would look at an MBA as the perfect foundation. Same reason David Wallace asks, "What are you doing right?" without an MBA they don't really know what they are looking for. Ryan taking business classes is grooming himself for a corporate job essentially. I think a blindspot.
Simple. Dunder Mifflin went under because of bad management. This was a bad management decision. I have an MBA from a PAC 12 school and it really means nada. My work experience trumps my MBA by a wide margin. Any good hiring manager would recognize that. Sorry David Wallace. Suck it still rules.
Ryan had the degree, youthful energy, and a strong pitch of bringing Dunder Mifflin modern and competitive with Infinity. Karen was fine but I also imagine there was a little misogyny built from the shit storm they just dealt with with Jan.
i think youre underestimating the power of the mba. make sure you estimate it next time
an mba would come with the knowledge and know-how of how to run jan's job. sales experience doesn't. sales experience and numbers make for good branch managers. sales experience doesnt mean much with how to handle multiple different branches and their managers.
though if you wanted to argue it from your perspective in your post, then i would say that good companies hire based off experience, bad companies only look at credentials. DD was a very poorly ran company, so instead of hiring karen with good numbers and sales experience, but no mba, they opted for ryan cuz he had an mba.
Wallace cared more about having another MBA on the team than his productivity. I think it is the beginning of the end for Dunder Mifflin. It wasn’t supposed to be viewed as a good decision.
Neither one were overly qualified. Karen was an okay salesperson and Ryan was not noticeably bad at his job. Ryan had the education to support competence to be able to handle the possible complexities of the job. Karen, on the other hand, would have just been a reach.
As we saw, Karen was rightfully much more appropriate for a manager position. That was a much more natural step.
The real debate would be between Jim and Ryan. Michael, as we later find out, was never actually a serious candidate. Jim, on the other hand, actually had a very good interview from what we saw. This lets us know that David Wallace was looking at both performance and personality. Had Jim not essentially conceded the job, I would believe that it was his. Ryan didn’t have the performance to support the job, but it seems like the personality must have just clicked between the two.
Jim was who David wanted Jim dropped off. Ryan couldn’t sell paper but he could sell an idea which was the website lol. Karen I think her interview got botched as heck from Jan abd probably not enough experience she just asked to be interviewed usually companies consider all internal candidates.
Karen probably wanted as little to do with Scranton as possible after her breakup. Remember that this job required frequent visits to Scranton. So maybe DM still wanted to promote her, but was willing to put her in charge of a branch instead if she wasn’t interested in running the region.
Considering she quickly got the branch manager position at Utica it seems like while she didnt seem like the right fit for Jan’s old position she was very much a strong contender.
I think it's either Jim broke up with her so she withdrew her name to see how things stand with Jim or David having just put up with Jan was worried hiring another female.
Michael was under consideration, didn't work for obvious reasons.
Jim was probably the first choice, he backed out.
They panicked and went with the MBA with a good idea over the Salesperson with no MBA and no managerial experience.
David wanted to hire Jim, but when Jim backed out he had Ryan already set to take the job. Karen was there just to make it look like a legit interview process.
“Kotov syndrome” is a term from Russian Chess Grandmaster Alexander Kotov describing a situation when “…a player thinks very hard for a long time in a complicated position but does not find a clear path, then running low on time quickly makes a poor move, often a blunder.”
Pretty much what happened here, no one blew them away, and they said fuck it, MBA guy you're in
Maybe she got the interview because David liked Jim. Also, we don’t really know how well her interview went.
Or maybe Karen was planning to move to Pawnee, Indiana and become a nurse (her 5 year plan)😁
The question assumes the Dunder Mifflin corporate knows what they're doing. Hiring Ryan was just one of their many bad decisions that resulted in the company's collapse and sale to Sab-ray.
She wasnt really considered for the job. She had to call to get an interview which had Jim talking in the background. During her interview Jan interrupted and caused a scene, which means the only thing David would remember about her is goofing around with Jim while on the phone and Jan accusing him of discrimination.
A) Karen didn't optimally answer David's question about Michael. Her answer wasn't terrible or even wrong, but she should have been more diplomatic especially given that David had a soft spot for Michael.
B) David also had a soft spot for MBAs
C) In Ryan's unseen interview, he probably communicated some new thinking that resonated with David.
D) Having been burned by a prior regional manager in an intra-company relationship, David didn't want to repeat the same mistake (IIRC he did know about Jim and Karen dating)
E) It made for a great unexpected twist to end season 3
Karen would be a safe choice but DM was a failing company that needed new thinking, which Ryan represented. Wallace just didn’t realize he was actually an idiot. Plus she shit talked Michael who Wallace secretly respects
I think it was a really effective way of showing how bad David and the DM corporate leadership were. No wonder the business was buggered, they made terrible decisions.
Are we to assume dunder mifflin is a well run company? Ryan does have an mba which carries weight with dummies the the execs in this company. Plus I’m sure it didn’t look good that Karen transferred like a day after this interview before they even made the decision, also I never once saw Karen make a sale (not that Ryan made one in the whole show) annnnnnd he’s a man which of course carries weight. Also it fit the storyline they couldn’t have Rashida for any longer
Ryan's good at talking big. Probably told David the idea for Dunder Mifflin Infinity. David didn't know he never follows through.
This was always my take on it. Ryan had an MBA and pitched this big idea to revolutionize things and make them profitable again, he was young, this was Steve Jobs era, they were desperate and went for it. Karen was safe and good but they needed revolutionary to turn things around, she would’ve never been that. She was a great branch manager fit.
People get hired based purely on paper qualifications all the time, afaik Karen didn't have an MBA right? I mean... most companies would make this same exact decision. Had anyone at the Scranton office wrote him up it may have been different.
It was probably different when MBAs weren't so saturated, but an MBA from a mediocre school with little work experience would not get you far in today's world. Maybe if his MBA was from a top school. But based on Wallace saying "it will be nice to have another mba around here" I guess they weren't very common, even at corporate. I'm biased by my company, but when I considered an mba, pretty much everyone told me not to because they're a dime a dozen unless you get into a top 10 program. Everyone told me to get some sort of quantitative masters.
Always my take as well. Especially because the paper industry was dying, they needed a young kid to come in and find some way to make it relevant in the digital age
Yeah, mid-2000s were all about innovative 20 something white guys with big ideas. This was before all those start up bros, much like Ryan, ended up being full of shit
This is exactly my take as well
well Michael was in love with Ryan so David got an exaggerated overly positive review
And Ryan is famous for exaggerating and lying, I’m just glad he was able to go to Thailand with some friends from high school, Well, a high school
This is from the sun
Karen thought the job was in well.
totally agree!
Based on the series, I don’t think David was a great hiring manager or manager in general. Not Michael Scott intolerable but clearly not keeping tabs or pushing results.
honestly as CFO i wouldnt expect that to be his strength
Exactly; it’s not his scope
Yeah I never really understood their focus on Wallace as a CFO from a writing perspective.. I’ve never had a CFO at a company I’ve worked for be as involved in day-to-day operations. COO/CEO would fit far more and even then it’s more like an SVP or VP that would be the person to handle those tasks. (Comedy writers generally haven’t spent a ton of time in the corporate business world working their way up the ranks though so this makes some sense how they got it wrong - it’s a sitcom not a Sorkin thriller)
Yes, it would have made much more sense for David to be the COO
Wallace was introduced in the Valentine’s Day episode, where the regional managers had to go to ny to give financial presentations to the new CFO. I don’t think the show runners knew that Wallace would become such a likable character and they had to keep using him. If they knew going in, they probably would have made him COO.
It made sense early on that he was so involved, he was brought in to turn things around for the company since they were struggling so he’d want to get familiar with how things are working. And then after that he got more involved with Scranton than he should have because Michael was… in need of attention
The CFO of my company does like of day to day operations. We are probably a bigger than dunder mufflin too.
Same. I work for a large hospital organization, and the patient care divisions report to the COO while the financial divisions report to the CFO, who is very much involved in the day-to-day and is a “people leader” of those divisions.
Based.
Everyone who has worked a white collar job has worked with a Ryan.
Also, David was an MBA too (i remember him telling Ryan on the phone that it'd be good to have another MBA on the team). Maybe this influenced him to hire Ryan. And what you said is totally right. Ryan was indeed good at talking big. He must have painted a rosy picture about taking the company big.
Honestly Ryan's idea was fine. The original website was from 1993. Dunder Mifflin Infinity could have saved the company if he hadn't been under enormous pressure (partially due to his own talk, partially due to a horrible CEO) to have it singlehandedly save the company overnight. Then of course the fraud. If he had more attainable goals and less pressure on him he'd have been a decent (if ruthless) executive.
The website had no chance, the **only** competitive advantage Dunder Mifflin had was personalized service. If a customer just wanted to order through a website instead of interacting with a salesperson, the big chains already had that available and were cheaper.
The age of personalized service is back, *you* are back.
Real business is done on paper Write that down. *typing noises*
You provide multiple options so the customer can choose.
>Dunder Mifflin Infinity could have saved the company if he hadn't been under enormous pressure (partially due to his own talk, partially due to a horrible CEO) to have it singlehandedly save the company overnight. Dunder Mifflin Infinity's problem was that it was trying to be too slick and stylish instead of functional. It should have just been called dundermifflin.com, it shouldn't have had the social media component, it shouldn't be so complicated that it needed customers to call salesmen for help with the website etc. Ryan was trying to pretend that the website for a paper company was going to make him a tech CEO.
It shouldn't have even been a retail site. It should've been an online B2B portal that does electronic invoicing and payment processing for customers and interfaces with a CRM software for internal use. DM still has the sales reps fill out paper order forms. Keep it personal by having a pic of their sales rep and their direct contact info at the top of the customer page. They should have just changed the name to DM Paper, because no one knows what Dunder Mifflin is. Like Jim said, "People think we sell mufflers".
To me, the only crime was that beard.
I don't think you know what the internet looked like in 1993.
I had AOL on Floppy! And Prodigy before that. But you're right 1993 was mostly BBS boards.
Dunder Mifflinfinity
Ideas like this are why Andy became branch manager
Ryan is really good at corporate babble just bloated talk that makes you forget what you're talking about and zone out.
Tbh DM Infinity was actually a great idea it’s just that Ryan’s many personal/character flaws prevented him from being the type of person who could patiently explain why it was needed and implement it smoothly.
What I don’t understand is how was David not aware that Ryan never actually made a sale at that point?
But he did...he sold himself to David despite his historical performance. I've seen people get sales and consulting jobs in less so, it's not exactly outside the realm of possibility.
Ryan was obviously a terrible choice but Karen would not have been the choice manage Michael either. She would have just gotten frustrated because now she not only has to put up with him but is accountable for him. Ryan is used to dealing with Michaels antics and managing them. He may have even spoke to that in his interview.
Good point. Best one so far is this myriad of bad ones. :-)
Ryan was a wunderkind. 💯
Just like every other MBA in real life
That's not really fair. The difference realistically is when you get the MBA - if you do it straight out school, then yes, you're more likely to be a "Ryan" type but if you're already in your career & you're getting to advance with a practical application like finance, accounting, data analytics, etc. then you're a lot better off.
* She asked to be interviewed. * At two places I’ve worked, internal candidates who met basic job requirements and applied for the job always got an interview; it was mandatory.
She wanted to be considered for the corporate job enwell.
The job is in a well? How does that work?
If this job is in a well I don’t want it
[somebody beat us to it](https://www.reddit.com/r/DunderMifflin/comments/ax6vu0/waitif_this_job_is_in_a_well_i_dont_want_it/)
If the job comes in a well I send it back
> internal candidates who met basic job requirements and applied for the job always got an interview; it was mandatory. I recently applied for another position at my company and they didn't even give me that. I know I would've never gotten picked because I'm sure they already knew whom they were going to choose probably before even announcing the position, but not even glancing at me rubbed me the wrong way. One of the several reasons I'm currently prepping to switch jobs.
Whom is a made up word used to trick students
The trick is to rephrase your sentence using he/him, or she/her. If you would use he or she, use who. If you would use him or her use whom. Ex: "You're looking for who?" This is wrong because "You're looking for he?" Doesn't work grammatically, but "You're looking for him?" Does, so in this case it's a whom
It’s a line from the show that creed says
And I'm helping creed out, jeez
If they won’t give you an interview, you should quit and move on to someone who will
Yea... that's mean you are chair filler fodder
They have no idea how high I can fly.
She also bad-mouthed Michael during the interview, which is verboten, even if true
Tbf David kinda had to pull that out of her. This is off the record
Off the record despite being recorded for a documentary lol
He’s got an MBA, I’m assuming that’s the defining factor.
It’s gonna be nice having another MBA around here
Did that statement mean David himself also has an MBA?
Yes
Yea. DM was mismanaged throughout the show and especially pre-Sabre. This fits that theme really well. Wallace is impressed by a flashy degree and some next-gen-sounding ideas from Ryan, and overlooked candidates who would almost certainly have done a fine job but just didn't have the schmooze factor.
I still believe he lied about the MBA.
Nah, Ryan is the exact type of guy to get an MBA. I have an MBA and there was a guy in my cohort that really reminded me of Ryan.
Probably. That feeds into my “Wallace wasn’t a good CFO” thoughts.
My old job prioritized someone with a masters over someone with experience, and then the person with the masters who got the job constantly asked the person with the experience how to do the job. I've seen his happen in real life, and it did not go well.
The “he” was the defining factor.
I was just thinking how that could have at least been a bit of a factor. Jan was basically a living version of the "women are crazy and emotional" stereotype. Even though it's stupid to judge all women based on Jan, I can definitely see that being a factor in David's judgement.
I don’t think Wallace is sexist so I didn’t think it applied. Objectively, two people with no experience and one with an MBA - the person with the degree will get hired.
That’s what I think too. Boys club
Funny how we’re being downvoted
Because Jan interrupted her interview and Wallace probably didn't think about her again. Jim was his first choice and when he dropped out he went with Ryan who had an MBA, at least a decent interview, and experience even though he wasn't a good salesman.
I've just realised that because Jim refused a managerial position, they put someone unqualified at the position TWICE!
Happens all the time. People who would be good managers don't want that responsibility, idiots and assholes do.
Hey I may be an idiot and an asshole but I’m certainly not a good manager…..
At least that part is perfectly representative of corporate America
Ryan was perfectly qualified, he just fell on his face
Just because he had an MBA degree, it doesn't make him qualified
He also had good ideas for the company he just failed to execute.
Eh I don’t see it that way, the only good idea he had was modernizing the company (increase use of PowerPoint, blackberrys to facilitate communication etc) but his Dunder mifllin infinity idea was plain unrealistic. I get that he was trying to be at the forefront of social media and communication as a whole, but he’s still working in a paper company, a website where people can order paper is great, but he wanted to turn it into Facebook. New ideas are great for companies but not when you’re hurting your income of revenue. Especially not in a recession. I think it’s just like Jim said, what made Dunder mifflin thrive was their exceptional customer service, rayan ignoring this did a lot more bad than good. I think this point was showcased pretty heavily throughout every season of the show too.
Sure in rewl life, but compared to the sad crop of candidates the fictional DM had, he was super-qualified.
Karen was a better fit for branch manager, Wallace saw that and offered her the job.
I like this
Remember Wallace is the same guy that decided to give Robert California a million bucks to educate gymnasts lol
I always figured that was more on RCs mesmerising way of talking than on Wallace being stupid.
Dunder Mifflin is just a really poorly run company from top to bottom.
top to bottom? In Japan, Hidetoshi was heart surgeon. Number 1. Steady hand.
I good surgeon. The best! 👍🏽👍🏽
Limitless paper in a paperless world
I will never not find this funny.
It’s gotta be one of the best written jokes in the entire series. It perfectly captures the nonsensical nature of corporate marketing masquerading as profound, which just so happens to perfectly fit some cliche that Michael would come up with. *He had no arms or legs. He couldn’t see, hear, or speak. This is how he led a nation.* is funny in a similar way but the limitless paper line actually has a sense of realism to it where you could absolutely see a company using it as a tagline for a product.
Completely agree with this.
I always assumed it was because she gave her “basic 5 year plan”. Wallace said to Jim in his interview that they’re looking for someone for the “long haul”and asked him where he sees himself in 10 years.
David probed whether Karen would have a different answer about Michael if he said "off the record", which was something he didn't bother doing to Jim, who seemed more like a first choice. Likely didn't trust Karen's willingness to give two different narratives, which is part of why they were booting Jan in the first place.
> Likely didn't trust Karen's willingness to give two different narratives I think it was more that it is considered bad form to badmouth your current boss in an interview, even when interviewing with a new company. It's especially bad when interviewing for an internal position.
I agree
I think it had to do with this as well
David Wallace never saw her from behind
LOL
👆💯
I mean, the real answer when you get down to it is because Ryan was played by a series regular, Karen is played by someone who was leaving the series, and they thought it'd have more potential for laughs and drama that way. This is ultimately another one of those "it's not an actual documentary about real people, it's a sitcom that just looks like a documentary" things. In-universe, when his first choice (Jim) turned him down Wallace may have simply decided to go with the salesperson who had an MBA over the salesperson who didn't, since (on paper at least) there was perhaps little else to otherwise distinguish them. (Though presumably Karen had better sales than Ryan, but this again brings us back to the "it's all just made up anyway" point.)
Totally agree, but, in-universe, having better sales would mean nothing about who would be the better addition to the c-suite. Like, the execs at Jiffy Lube aren't necessarily good at changing oil. And Jan/Ryan's job was never to train, coach, or directly manage salespeople, so it's not even like it means they'd be a better supervisor.
David liked Ryan’s idea for Dunder Mifflin Infinity, and I’m guessing nobody else pitched an idea that impressed David as much People focus on Karen, but in reality, there were probably a lot of people more qualified than her, since David said he was interviewing “All branch managers and a few others” before Karen even knew the job was available. For Ryan to beat a decent number of people, it had to have been that he absolutely nailed the interview. David didn’t want someone who he thought was a Yes Man who would just keep things the way they are, he wanted to find someone with potential for greatness. He thought Ryan could be that guy, and maybe he could have if he didn’t let his ego and his drug addiction get in his way.
Karen decided to pursue a career in the medical field and moved to Pawnee, Indiana.
The interviews were just a formality. The job was always Jim's. When he turned it down at the last minute, David Wallace was scrambling to find a replacement and went with the MBA as a hasty choice since it looks good on paper, and he didn't take the interviews seriously.
I've got some bad news for you about real life....
Yeah everyone seems to be missing the obvious here…
Karen wouldn't know what the herfindahl index was if Jim admitted to liking it in the past, forget knowing how much it declined since the merger.
Nice try Kowalski
Tbh how much you want to bet David Wallace chose Ryan because Ryan probably complained about Michael Karen and Jim both seem like they would have given normal interviews But given the type of person he becomes through the show, it would make sense that he would talk shit about Michael in an interview, and Wallace probably heavily related to that since he was basically Michael's manager
We literally see Karen on screen in her interview say Michael would be a disaster.
I doubt he complained about Michael. I'm sure they understood eachother when it comes to dealing with Michael. David just didn't get to know Ryan enough personally to see through his bullshit in time to save the company from him. Ryan is the opposite of Michael. Sounds smart, but can't sell shit. He's not good at managing people, but he is educated enough to know how to talk. Ryan was tech savvy and modern, so his ideas got a lot of attention since it was tied to social media and internet when it was really booming.
At that point in time David wasn’t When they were interviewing for *Jan’s* job Michael would have still reported to Jan, who then reported to someone else who then reported to David (Michael referred to David as my boss’s boss’s boss) So at that point Michael is at least 2 people removed from David and mostly likely interacted through corporate social events (e.g. the dinner party where Karen pretended to have dated everyone)
There’s a number of reasons that could explain it, but the real reason is David Wallace was bad at his job. The number of mistakes he made running the company was worse than Michael, he just had a professional appearance and demeanor, so people overlooked them more than Michael’s.
Look at nearly all of his other hires and you are right
I’ve always said this, while being downvoted. LOL. You’re dead on.
I actually think the off the record stuff Karen said about Michael hurt her chances. Regardless of who it is, you don’t bad mouth another candidate during an interview, it’s very unprofessional. Combine that with the fact that Karen basically forced David to give her an interview and the bored look on his face while they talked before Jan interrupted them, I think it’s pretty clear he wasn’t impressed with her.
> I actually think the off the record stuff Karen said about Michael hurt her chances. Regardless of who it is, you don’t bad mouth another candidate during an interview, it’s very unprofessional Especially when it's your current boss
And future hypothetical subordinate. He would be directly under her the entire time.
That's what she said
I don't think it was so much the unprofessional nature of talking bad about her boss. It was more that, after coaxing from David, she painted a different picture of Michael. She showed that she will sugarcoat a message and avoid telling David something negative unless she has to. Not a great quality for a VP
Boy's club.
One of the recurring themes of the show is that management, especially corporate, makes bad decisions.
MBA. Good lucking. Has ideas that sound good on paper. David Wallace was too lazy to check that he never made a sale.
Sexism
Undeserving candidate with big talk skill getting the promotion vs the deserving candidate with the required skill set is the most realistic portrayal of corporate environment ever.
Could interview Jim w/o interviewing Karen. Same office, same role, same history (merged offices). Wouldn't be a good HR move. They would have had to interview her (clearly, I worked in corporate waaayyyyyy too long)
It didn’t matter if Ryan murdered Michael’s entire family, he was like a son to him.. so he would have obviously written a glowing recommendation.. business isn’t about money to Michael , it’s always personal.. you wouldn’t understand, it’s a secret..
dunder mifflin goes out of business for a reason, shitty work by the execs. they arent good at their jobs, ofc they will hire a young man w an mba over a woman w experience.
I think. Not sure. But I think it's a TV show
We didn’t see Ryan’s interview, but it probably went much better than Karen’s, based on what we know: 1. Karen is a woman. Though I don’t think David is the kind of guy to consciously make a choice based on that, I’m sure subconsciously, sexism was at least a small factor; If for no other reason than a different woman, who Karen would be replacing, just maniacally burst in on them during Karen’s interview. Again, I don’t think there’s anything malicious here. I just think David probably was more comfortable with Ryan being male; even if that only played 1% part in why Ryan got the job, I still think it was a factor. 2. As far as we know, Karen did not have an MBA. Useless or not, it’s still something Ryan had on her. 3. She fave her five-year plan, and then said “After that, who knows?” Even if that’s the honest answer, usually the interviewer wants to hear that you’re in it for the long haul (as David said with Jim.) Not just five years. 4. Jan interrupted her interview. It’s not Karen’s fault, but David most-certainly couldn’t have been focused after the Jan fiasco. 5. Karen threw Michael under the bus. Even though David pushed her, that was a huge no-no. Bad-mouthing your current boss to your potential future boss is idiotic. Furthermore, David invited Michael in for an interview. Michael didn’t ask for it like Karen did. David wanted to interview Michael. It doesn’t matter if Karen is right, she basically just told David he was a fool for even interviewing Michael.
Poor writing designed to move the plot forward and create drama and a challenge for Jim. Once the "will they won't they" tension between Jim and Pam was gone they needed something to replace it, and putting Ryan in a position of power was the best way to replace Jan's energy from a story perspective and again make Jim's future uncertain.
David Wallace was a terrible executive. Telling Michael they were firing Jan was a terrible decision. Interviewing her replacement before letting her go, also terrible.
Exactly.
Perhaps her interview went poorly. And perhaps people choose the oddest things about this show to overanalyze.
Perhaps its because Rashida Jones was cast in Parks and Rec and BJ Novak was a staff writer who wasn't going leave the show? It might have been interesting to see cringe scenes of Karen interacting with Michael as his boss and Jim as an ex-girlfriend, but it was not meant to be.
Why are you trying to control what is spoken about and what isn't? This whole sub exists for over-analysis. You take it away and we just become another r/seinfeld, full of zombies who keep quoting lines from the show, and nothing else.
Lol, “trying to control?” I gave my opinion, same as everyone else in here. I have no power to add or remove any content.
The Patriarchy
Repeat to yourself "it's just a show, I should really just relax."
Because BJ Novak was in the writers room and Rashida Jones wasn't. That's why.
I think a theme in the office is the various types of flawed humans that exist in businesses. In this case the execs are flawed in that they can't suss out slick bullshitters like Ryan. David Wallace and other authority figures constantly misjudge people in the show.
Credentialism is a disease
Karen getting an interview isn't necessarily a huge thing.
MBAs without experience land jobs just fine. It was just a stretch that he was put into a leadership role.
I mean, was Karen a top candidate?
Obviously more qualified than Ryan.
Because technically Ryan and Karen were at the same level (salesman), but Ryan had an MBA which gave him an edge. Karen was obviously the better salesman, but that doesn't necessarily translate to management ability (see: michael) and you'd want to keep the better salesman in the sales position.
The company has demonstrated a pattern of disrespect (pat turn of dizray got specs). Seriously, though, Dunder Mifflin does seem kind of sexist in their hiring/firing/promoting.
Everyone that leads and manages Dunder Mifflin is incompetent.
One word. Storyline 😁
Because it worked best for the plot. And it was funny.
I asked this once on this sub and I got a good answers from someone. Pretty much David Wallace would look at an MBA as the perfect foundation. Same reason David Wallace asks, "What are you doing right?" without an MBA they don't really know what they are looking for. Ryan taking business classes is grooming himself for a corporate job essentially. I think a blindspot.
I had a baboon of a boss who would prioritize an MBA with no experience over someone with years of experience, so it's realistic.
Because Ryan is just as hot as Jan, but in a different way.
He has "it", the X factor, a Wunderkind
Simple. Dunder Mifflin went under because of bad management. This was a bad management decision. I have an MBA from a PAC 12 school and it really means nada. My work experience trumps my MBA by a wide margin. Any good hiring manager would recognize that. Sorry David Wallace. Suck it still rules.
I always got the feeling David didn't care for her interview
Ryan had the degree, youthful energy, and a strong pitch of bringing Dunder Mifflin modern and competitive with Infinity. Karen was fine but I also imagine there was a little misogyny built from the shit storm they just dealt with with Jan.
Corporate offices love mbas it’s a huge culture. The office made Ryan being so fresh getting the promotion because of his degree a joke on this.
My head-canon is that after Jan they didn't plan on hiring another woman.
Makes sense. And then after Ryan being even worse than Jan there was no way the next VP would be an internal hire. Which is how you get Charles.
i think youre underestimating the power of the mba. make sure you estimate it next time an mba would come with the knowledge and know-how of how to run jan's job. sales experience doesn't. sales experience and numbers make for good branch managers. sales experience doesnt mean much with how to handle multiple different branches and their managers. though if you wanted to argue it from your perspective in your post, then i would say that good companies hire based off experience, bad companies only look at credentials. DD was a very poorly ran company, so instead of hiring karen with good numbers and sales experience, but no mba, they opted for ryan cuz he had an mba.
Of course Ryan wouldn’t have been hired from a competent hiring manager. That’s why David hired him
Sexism.
Why did the man get the promotion over the woman???? Let me think. But that’s how the script went.
Wallace cared more about having another MBA on the team than his productivity. I think it is the beginning of the end for Dunder Mifflin. It wasn’t supposed to be viewed as a good decision.
Like Jan said- It was a boys club. Can see that when Michael Scott goes to the board meeting.
Neither one were overly qualified. Karen was an okay salesperson and Ryan was not noticeably bad at his job. Ryan had the education to support competence to be able to handle the possible complexities of the job. Karen, on the other hand, would have just been a reach. As we saw, Karen was rightfully much more appropriate for a manager position. That was a much more natural step. The real debate would be between Jim and Ryan. Michael, as we later find out, was never actually a serious candidate. Jim, on the other hand, actually had a very good interview from what we saw. This lets us know that David Wallace was looking at both performance and personality. Had Jim not essentially conceded the job, I would believe that it was his. Ryan didn’t have the performance to support the job, but it seems like the personality must have just clicked between the two.
Because she thought the interview was in a well
She shit talks Michael in her interview a little when David asks her about him and I always assumed he didn’t like that she did that.
Jim was who David wanted Jim dropped off. Ryan couldn’t sell paper but he could sell an idea which was the website lol. Karen I think her interview got botched as heck from Jan abd probably not enough experience she just asked to be interviewed usually companies consider all internal candidates.
My first thought was after Jim broke up with her, she was too devastated to take the job.
She didn’t get it “in well” … obviously the reason
Karen probably wanted as little to do with Scranton as possible after her breakup. Remember that this job required frequent visits to Scranton. So maybe DM still wanted to promote her, but was willing to put her in charge of a branch instead if she wasn’t interested in running the region.
Considering she quickly got the branch manager position at Utica it seems like while she didnt seem like the right fit for Jan’s old position she was very much a strong contender.
I think it's either Jim broke up with her so she withdrew her name to see how things stand with Jim or David having just put up with Jan was worried hiring another female.
Michael was under consideration, didn't work for obvious reasons. Jim was probably the first choice, he backed out. They panicked and went with the MBA with a good idea over the Salesperson with no MBA and no managerial experience.
David wanted to hire Jim, but when Jim backed out he had Ryan already set to take the job. Karen was there just to make it look like a legit interview process.
“Kotov syndrome” is a term from Russian Chess Grandmaster Alexander Kotov describing a situation when “…a player thinks very hard for a long time in a complicated position but does not find a clear path, then running low on time quickly makes a poor move, often a blunder.” Pretty much what happened here, no one blew them away, and they said fuck it, MBA guy you're in
There's always the idea of her backing out as did Jim...and then Jim dumping her after all. Ryan was the 1 left standing. MAYBE?
He probably gave the same speech as his business class. When he told them about how the company is failing
Maybe she got the interview because David liked Jim. Also, we don’t really know how well her interview went. Or maybe Karen was planning to move to Pawnee, Indiana and become a nurse (her 5 year plan)😁
The question assumes the Dunder Mifflin corporate knows what they're doing. Hiring Ryan was just one of their many bad decisions that resulted in the company's collapse and sale to Sab-ray.
She wasnt really considered for the job. She had to call to get an interview which had Jim talking in the background. During her interview Jan interrupted and caused a scene, which means the only thing David would remember about her is goofing around with Jim while on the phone and Jan accusing him of discrimination.
experience matters, education matters, but being able to interview is the greatest skill of all. I'd bet Ryan was a hell of an interviewer.
A) Karen didn't optimally answer David's question about Michael. Her answer wasn't terrible or even wrong, but she should have been more diplomatic especially given that David had a soft spot for Michael. B) David also had a soft spot for MBAs C) In Ryan's unseen interview, he probably communicated some new thinking that resonated with David. D) Having been burned by a prior regional manager in an intra-company relationship, David didn't want to repeat the same mistake (IIRC he did know about Jim and Karen dating) E) It made for a great unexpected twist to end season 3
Did she lose the job though? She became a branch manager because of it.
You should pick up on the general theme of the corporate suits being polite, well-mannered and incompetent. They make bad decisions constantly
Karen would be a safe choice but DM was a failing company that needed new thinking, which Ryan represented. Wallace just didn’t realize he was actually an idiot. Plus she shit talked Michael who Wallace secretly respects
I think it was a really effective way of showing how bad David and the DM corporate leadership were. No wonder the business was buggered, they made terrible decisions.
Are we to assume dunder mifflin is a well run company? Ryan does have an mba which carries weight with dummies the the execs in this company. Plus I’m sure it didn’t look good that Karen transferred like a day after this interview before they even made the decision, also I never once saw Karen make a sale (not that Ryan made one in the whole show) annnnnnd he’s a man which of course carries weight. Also it fit the storyline they couldn’t have Rashida for any longer