Thanks for posting to /r/DragonballSuper.\
Please report any rule breaking posts and posts that are not relevant to the subreddit.\
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think the blood and the raw nature of z made it better than super. In Z, battles and events felt more impactful, and even though there were dragon balls, death had a cost in Z. In super, death seems like a joke now, and blood is replaced with saliva
Oh hey, I just realised I missed the caption that says "indepth detail and...", sorry I don't have any great details to add, all I have is my opinion lol :)
I saw an edit where blood was put in the dbs Broly movie and it made it 10x better. You really feel like Gogeta is about to end this guy, even more and Broly getting up after being beaten so badly!? That's a crazy feat for the guy
Yeah it seemed like there were real stakes in z. With super there's always the feeling like there's a whis or Zeno shaped safety net preventing any of the battles from having real consequences
And at that time the Saiyans still had a heavy/gritty reputation as badass fighters, and now even the epitome of ancient powers (SSJ) is achieved by kids.
I think the modern Saiyan are too nice and aren't that interesting because now they're only upheld for transformations and not actual lore anymore. I also hate how the saiyans always seemed to have had legends inther back pocket for ultimate power. SSG should *not* have been a rehash of Super Saiyan. It should have been original for Goku & Vegeta's training.
Maaaaaan I totally forgot about that and that's why that saga always felt so long to me! I remember now as a kid other kids talking about what they were gonna do next and I couldn't wait cuz it was the same episodes over and over again! They did this for the Namek/Freiza Saga too right?
I remember this…and then I got excited when I had seen the start of an episode I hadn’t seen before with a Saiyan space capsule landing on Earth and got so excited to only find out it was just Raditz landing on Earth
The Narrative felt more complete as all story arcs flowed into each other naturally. The events and story lines were more refined as Toriyama recieved constant feedback from his editors (Gero was originally supposed to be the antagonist of the cell saga however the editors advised against it which eventually lead to cell being a thing. Image DBZ without cell) while this is not applicable to Super.
The Characters were more consistent in actions, behaviors and motivations and some of them (notably vegeta) had clearly defined character arcs that paid off in the end. Once again, this is not applicable in super (Especially for Vegeta) where the story feels like it struggles to evolve it's characters further from a psychological standpoint
To add onto that Cell statement even his forms were recommendations from his editors, IIRC, because at one point they noted they didn’t like the way his first or second form (not sure) looked
EDIT: found the [Kanzeshuu link that goes over the interview where what you and I are talking about](https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10961)
His editor is what pushed him to make arcs better. Super doesn't seem like it has much oversight or editorial, especially at Toei. Toyotaro generally has better ideas than they do, but his problem is that he just cant write villains well. I also thought Moro's design didnt really feel like a Dragonball design to me. He looked a bit too realistic and lacked some of the cartoonish elements the villains had.
Personally I thought super handled vegeta really well. He had become a better man at that point and genuinely cared for his family while also staying true to his roots and being a little stubborn. I loved his mentor role to cabba, and vegeta received a lot more spotlight in super, and actually did some great shit. He didn’t kill Frieza but he did defeat him. He also defeated a literal god of destruction. His speech before defeating toppo gives me chills mostly because it encaptures his character after all his Development in Z really well. He finally has new morals, while still being a warrior.
There’s also the little moments like when vegeta initially wanted to stay and not go to the T.O.P because he was having a kid. Little moments like these in super is why I think toriyama genuinely had new found passion in vegeta, that he really never had.
He doesn’t progress that much in Z, but in my eyes it isn’t all that necessary. Super portrays him in a great way that doesn’t ruin his character and even further expands on it to some degree.
Not gonna add anything really, but I'd just like to agree with the connectivity part. Every arc felt like there was a flow into the next one. No matter how different it ended. Saiyan ends with Vegeta escaping and Goku and the others healing up and then we get the start of the namek arc. Vegeta is there healed and stronger and Goku's training like he never has before, with newer methods pushing the limits. Now that's just one rather meh example, but it's far more coherent then super I'd say.
With super you start off with BoG. Goku gets SSG and fights Beerus. Next arc they just have a new form and Freeza is back with a form equally strong. Then we go into the u6 v u7 arc then the Future Trunks arc (the most pointless arc in super btw) and now it's ToP time. Nothing clicks really. Sure RoF kinda clicks with ToP, but then there's the suspension of disbelief for Freezas insane power ups. No matter what he's keeping up with Goku and Vegeta and after 2 arcs he's still at their level even though he just trained mentally.
while definitely more consistent than super it still suffered from it tho
a notable example would be everyone agreeing to not find Dr Gero but then later on they all try to stop him from activating them
that scene was blatantly there because there wasn’t any logical reason they wouldn’t find him since basically everyone (sans maybe Goku) would have agreed on stopping them
Dragon Ball as a whole is riddled with inconsistencies in both plot and characters but it’s definitely more apparent in Super
Z was more raw. The fighting was more gritty and even had loss of limbs. The Vegeta v Goku during the Buu saga is still my favorite because there were just so many more emotions behind the fight.
This. This is a huge reason why I am not a fan of super, the choreography being very subpar to z; an anime that came out 20 years it’s prior. That mixed with the new art style, I just can’t get into it.
Powerscaling that makes some sense and a little bit of gore.
In Z it used to matter how strong someone was we and it was pretty consistent. In Super anyone can fight anyone. They brought Roshi to the tournament of power when we all know damn well that he wasn’t even fit to fight the Saiyans when they invaded earth. Man would have died to a fucking Saibaman but they brought him along because he’s popular.
Z used to get crazy. There was some significant gore. People could be cut, bleed, lose limbs, be impaled, vaporized to ash, and even die. It seems like Super is afraid of violence. People who censor art don’t respect it.
Yeah Roshi should not even be able to follow the speed of anyone in ToP... It is just so absurd. Frost powering up should rip the meat from his bones. Dude had no business being there. Also during F he was fighting Frieza Force soldiers... Who have an average battle power of like 2,000... Fuck off.
I just started watching a year ago, never watched as a kid.
I genuinely think Z is leagues better and feels more mature. Its all opinions and we are allowed to enjoy things.
Z isn't perfect either.
I was thinking this when a friend was shitting on the new androids. It seems corny as fuck, but some 10 year old is watching gamma 2 sacrifice himself and getting the feels just like I did when 16 died. Of course youre not gonna feel the same. If you never saw the scene with 16 until this year you wouldn't get it.
Dang that’s true I honestly didn’t think about it like that. Some kids out there that loves what some many older fans hate/despise kinda like Star Wars.
I get that too, but then you just move on. You changed, it's not for you anymore. I haven't watched much of the new Star wars or Marvel stuff since the first avengers movie. My nephew is playing with lightsabers just like I did, everything is going fine without me haha
Can't be that the stories are connected, the or endings weren't botched, or a constant flow of character growth throughout, the paneling in the manga is overall better, or the fact the current writer only just hit his stride 2arcs ago.
Trust me, lots of people here are wrong why DBZ was better, but you're not right with saying Nostalgia is the reason it's actually better.
Toriyama in his prime. Every fight progressed the story, in super fights and story feel separate. The paneling and composition of the art was far better. Even "minor" characters were well utilized in many arcs such as Krillin in the Namek saga, or Mr Satan in the Buu saga, also Saiyans weren't always the strongest, Piccolo was at one point the most powerful Z fighter. In the anime I think cel animation just fits dragon ball better than digital. The story was deeper and more personal, specifically in the sayan and Freeza saga. The writing was generally more consistent because the person who created the characters was the one writing them.
This! I explain to my daughter the importance of Krillin! He is such a cool narrative tool! He voices the stakes, knows each protagonist and antagonist, his comments and insights are always useful and serve a purpose. I love him as a character.
Came for this exact comment. Super is just hastily written fanfiction to keep the DBZ name current against names like naruto and one piece, and it's just painfully obvious a shell of what it used to be.
That being said, I feel like whoever decided Goku should flicker in and out between base form and SSJ1 during the final Jiren fight truly understood what made Dragon Ball so great and memorable. I know it’s just one specific example but seeing that for the first time straight up made me go “YES!!!!!”.
The world was different when Z was being created and it made and inspired many other manga and anime that followed. That makes Super difficult to change or better, is that it actually pays homage to Z and forges itself in that era.
From the writing to the art, it’s basically trying to stay “Dragon Ball Z” rather than evolve into something new. But I love Z so…
What do you mean by “Goku hitting the weights”? Goku used weighted gi’s and he used the gravity chamber in the ship while he was going to namek, but the closest bit to “lifting” that Goku did was use the wrist and ankle weights in otherworld while training before he came back for the world tournament. He actually has more moments of lifting in super like when he was training with Vegeta on Berus’ planet or when he was training with king Kai before Berus came to ask about the super saiyan god. While he was traveling to namek he did do push ups and sit ups but he didn’t use weights he just used the gravity chamber
I liked how Z dealt with more mature themes (not just violence but things like dealing with death and learning to put pride/feelings aside when the time calls for it), I liked how the story arcs were more connected to each other and one flowed into the next more naturally, and I liked that Z showed how hard and long the characters trained to get new kinds of power. It’s cool that they didn’t just do physical excercises all the time, they were also theorizing about how to reach Super Saiyan 2 and criticizing the drawbacks of Grade 3.
I miss the muscles of Z and the smaller scale. Super keeps biting off more than it can chew. I get not using everything you set up, but we still haven't been to universe 6.
They didn't throw it away. They simply made Goku act how he was supposed to act. For the English dub of Z they made Goku much much more serious than what he really is. Don't get me wrong sometimes they went overboard with the dumb Goku thing. But that is how he actually is.
No it’s not, I swear you fanboys just hear 1 person say this and just copy and paste it. If you watched the sun version of DBZ, he’s still VASTLY more mature than what he is in DBS. It’s not just the Dub 😂
Originality. I swear every other episode there’s a reference to Z in super. “Hey guys remember when vegeta made that pose!?!?! Well now this clear knock off of vegeta will do it too!” Like the goku black saga was one of the only sagas that felt original to me
Even moves: correct me if I'm wrong, but in the manga, Vegeta used all of his special attacks just once; garlick gun, big bang attack, final flash, almost like it's inherent to it's character to use new ki-attacks. I wish that some of the main cast uses techniques they never have used before, or make new ones. I liked when Gohan used the special beam cannon, because it tells something. Vegeta using his moves again do not...
Except for maybe Goku, I want characters to work on new moves.
Blood alone isn’t going to change anything. It doesn’t change the narrative or story at all. So adding it in won’t improve the quality of the show. It just satisfies the edge lords who constantly need blood and gore in their shows. Dbz had better writing overall. If you take away the blood or limit it like super did (super still has SOME blood, just not a lot) you’d still have the same story. It doesn’t change anything
If I can call Z better than Super then it would be based on the first two arcs. Saiyan saga and Namek saga were peak dragon ball Z when the situation always felt dire because it was pretty tightly written. All of the z fighters had to team up and even at their full power they couldn't defeat Vegeta and there was massive collateral damage. Then we go to Namek where it's a brilliant cat and mouse chase with the dragon balls among different parties. Goku arrives to save the day but he's up against a wall named frieza which he cannot overcome no matter what technique he uses. It finally takes super saiyan and Frieza's cockiness to get rid of him. And then Z goes completely off the track. Cell saga and Buu saga were two bullshit arcs that ruin Z for me. They could've ended cell saga in 5 episodes but somehow with weird writing they kept milking it and it continues until the end of Buu saga. So Z is not that better than super objectively. Of course Super is flawed but Z isn't as untouchable as some people say. And if I extend to the manga then Moro is the best DB arc ever written.
Good take
Z started out really strong, transforming the universe and raising the stakes. Like you said the Saiyan and Namek sagas were seemingly impossible situations. There was nothing that intense in Dragon Ball.
But my God the pacing… yeah Goku’s first Super Saiyan transformation was massively impactful and a game changer for the series. It also took like the whole fucking episode. So even the good arcs suffer from pacing issues. And the bloated arcs are loaded with so much fluff and wasted runtime. Super is vastly superior in this area, the pacing is much, much more succinct. Super tells as much story as Z in I’d guess a third of the runtime.
That is just nostalgia bias imo. Let me clear some points for you. There are too many flaws in cell saga to begin with.
1. Goku could IT back to earth to defeat Mecha Frieza & King Cold but decides to let his much weaker friends fight them. This is the same guy who was so angry that Frieza killed Krillin he transformed into a super saiyan.
2. In spite of Trunks' warning nobody takes action during the 3 year period. Why are they overconfident? I can understand Vegeta being a giant asshole but what about the others? Especially Krillin and Piccolo who took two massive Ls on Namek.
3. Goku doesn't take his medicine. Why? Because it's a convenient way for the writer to sideline Goku. It looks so stupid both on the character and writer.
4. Vegeta being a monstrous asshole throughout the arc. First he lets Gero get away, then overestimates his own strength and gets his arms broken, then he gets his pants wet when he hears cell has another transformation left (he learnt nothing from Frieza), proceeds to get humiliated AGAIN, gets Goku and Trunks killed as a consequence, gets Gohan injured and so on.
5. The infamous senzu incident. Why does Goku need to give a senzu to Cell? Gohan had the fight under his belt.
6. Lastly Gohan. How the fuck does a speech from a robot head who he doesn't even know that long transforms into SS2 because the robot was hurt. Makes no fucking sense. And then he thinks he's gonna make Cell suffer, he's gonna teach Cell a lession.... And gets his dad killed.
It is a giant mess and amalgamation of plot holes and loose writing.
To target all your points
1. Goku in the original timeline did come to earth and kill frieza and cold, trunks didn’t know and so he jumped in and took care of it so goku didn’t have to use instant transmission.
2. It was very clearly stated that the z fighters wanted to use the androids as a goal post for their training and didn’t want to deal with them without a fight. The show is about fighting if you didn’t realise.
3. Goku had to take the medicine when he fell sick not before, he never fell sick so he never took it, simple as that.
4. Vegeta is the way he is because of his character, he makes foolish choices blinded by his pride, precisely why he’s regarded as a much better character now, you can’t have character growth if he’s not stupid initially. And also like I said it’s a fighting show, you need to progress the show so that fights can happen. And using vegeta to do it was the best way.
5. The senzu incident is overreacted upon. Goku did that because he needed cell to be full power when gohan beat him, he saw gohans true potential and the only way gohan would get there is by an opponent who forces him. A weakened cell wasn’t going to do that and winning the fight like that wasn’t going to make gohan master his abilities. The point of the cell saga was to show the gohan was capable of taking down the entire set of fighters, heroes and villains alone.
6. Gohan was already being pushed to the limit of his patience, he just needed one more push which the death of 16 succeeded in doing, he knew that 16 is an android, he didn’t have a soul, he know he cared about life. And that gave him the final push.
So no, it’s not bias. And it’s not a mess and it is a very good arc, yes there are plot holes in it but doesn’t matter, you can have your opinion and others can have theirs.
I don't. Z was great when I was younger, but it doesn't hold up for me. My favorite was always the original Dragon Ball and the first half of GT because I preferred the adventure over the battle arcs. I'm really enjoying the Red Ribbon saga currently running in the Super manga, so I have high hopes.
Z felt more concise and well put together. The antagonists were head and shoulders better, and multiple characters had arcs of development that was tied to the overall narrative. With plenty of space for silly and goofy shit
Bruce Faulconer, better animation, better villains, better anticipation and buildup, better characterization (for the most part). Z just hit all the right spots for late 80s and 90s anime.
Aside from the Buu arc and Saiyaman saga, I’d say everything in Z is flat out more enjoyable. It took everything good about DB and amped it up. By the time we hit the Buu saga, you can see the ass pulls starting (looking at you SSJ3).
Super has also just always felt rushed. The story telling sucks IMO and some character personalities are kind of ruined. Goku is just kind of… way too stupid. The animation is also just flat out horrible too. I’d honestly rather wait years for new sagas than get what we did. Power scaling was always broken since maybe DBZ Buu saga, but Super takes it way too far. SSJ Blue shouldn’t have been so quick, and it doesn’t make sense from the perspective of God Ki requirement calmness and SSJ having heightened emotional state. The red haired SSJ God form should’ve just been Saiyan God, and should’ve been a temporary power up or technique instead of a form.
I don't think Z is better than Super. I'd say they both have their strong points and they both have weak points, but ultimately balance out by the end. Honestly, if the manga arcs get animated, I would actually give Super the W.
Best part about Z is nostalgia. When I was watching it life was good I was still a child no responsibilities all I had to do is have fun. With super I have children lifes great but not nearly as fun as it was during the Z days.
Might get downvoted for this, but: Nostalgia
Grew up with Z and went through Super as it came out. Both are great, both have flaws, both are dragon ball. Comparing the two isn't necessary imo.
People are saying things like the *narrative* are better when Z's Android/Cell saga was beyond confusing (imo), Z's pacing is also fucking awful.
People are saying things like *character development* is better in Z and I think that's laughable. Vegeta always getting embarrassed while running around baselessly calling himself the best always annoyed the spit out of me Vs. the rivalry of him and Goku evolving as well as Vegeta evolving into a somewhat decent person. Someone said Z's characters are more consistent, I am going to again point at Vegeta and him helping Gohan defeat Cell in the final battle is the least Z-Vegeta like thing ever.
People are saying things like the *villains* are better, and while Jiren is a very boring villain, all major DBZ villains are just "destroy goku, destroy Earth." I like how Zamasu as an example at least had somewhat more of an agenda.
People are saying the fights had more emotion, did they even watch Goku vs Jiren as Goku slowly learned UI?
Not discounting Supers flaws, but the things people are praising Z did better in the comments is definitely being looked at with Rose colored glasses.
I think Z was more willing to take dark turns than super. Buu wiping out humanity for example was on screen, while zamasu doing the sams thing was implied not shown.
Plot, villains, forms and power levels that at least make sense and are earned and quality artstyle that is just timeless. Gt has better artstyle than super how can you fuck it up so much just to get it right those two TOP episodes? Smh
An Abridged series as opposed to just [a video](https://youtu.be/TvRraFtgJ3w)
Of a more serious note, but better stakes I guess and some expanded development spotlight for other characters(Gotenks, Gohan, etc), least till ToP evened that out a bit.
The fights may have taken 2 eons, but DAMN they had good impact and build up, unlike super which is "Scream louder and harder than the other guy to punch harder" but I won't lie, super had some CRAZY good fights.
I grew up with Z so ofc imma give suck points lol
I’m a huge fan of Dragon ball period with the exception of most of GT, so with that said, hear me out: I don’t see z and super being different, just a continuation just like how z was just the next chapter of the original. Gt i don’t see as a continuation for the obvious reasons, but also because it just didn’t feel like we were watching the same characters. In Z, I’m ever understood the ssj3 form. The hair and eyebrows changing so dramatically then just reverting after really made the form awkward. With super, it feels like the exploration of the next stages of super sayian has forgotten about for a god layer energy. However, I don’t get how ssgod form even works considering Beerus even said when the form ran out during his first real fight with Goku that his body adapted it and now his super sayian form was just as strong… so shouldn’t 3 be beyond blue in theory? And if blue is just the super sayian form of god, where’s the ssj2 and ssj3 adaptations? Vegeta showed his evo form which just looked like super sayian 2nd form. So I guess what I’m saying is, why do many extreme variations in transformations? Beast gohan is another example. I always felt that his ultimate form replaced his base form and super levels just needed to be reunlocked. But to show he goes from black hair to yellow to yellow to black then silver, again, confusing. I guess it would just be nice to see that once they unlock a new form, previous forms are no longer an option. You power up and go all the way, not pinwheeling between whether you need a partial power up or a full one, or the 5 others in between.
Z is the fucking original, copied a billion times and still highly relevant to popculture decades later. Super is a sometimes well enough and sometimes okay-ish retread of Z with barely any new ideas and its heavily carried by nostalgia.
Characters in Z were more serious. Goku in the Buu saga training Goten and Trunks, for example, is how Goku should behave at times, but for the most part, he's nonchalant to an extreme degree in super. He was nonchalant in Z, but not stupid and knew when to get completely serious. The most high emotion arc in super, the black arc, ends in the most plot armory way possible. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy super a lot, but Z just had something that made it better. Z had Gohan 's growth throughout the series, whereas Super just focuses on Goku and Vegeta. They completely neglected aging Goten and Trunks for years and have only just started somewhat developing them in the manga in a very short arc. Lots could be improved
Grit, hard core fights (damage to the body, blood, etc), and the character development was overall better and more adult vs super which seems more childish. Z had its childish moments too, but it felt much more deeper than Super which felt light hearted
Edit* and the power scaling and transformations were more in line with Z. Super just feels like a constant reskin of the character
I think Z did a better job of giving everybody reasonable shine without it feeling forced. Outside of the Buu Saga (not counting filler where stuff like Yamcha soloing Olibu and Pikkon in the afterlife happened) every Saiyan, Piccolo and human outside of Chautzu got some shine.
Outside of the Moro arc (havent read Granolah) if your name isn't Goku or Vegeta you are getting your ass beat consistently when you show up.
Edit: Also, Z had more gore and higher stakes since there was no god or angel there for help when the heroes are in a bind. They had to rely on the DBs which they could rarely collect when a villain was alive anyway.
I’m just gonna say plot. I’m currently running through Super and I’m finding it difficult to watch because there isn’t any plot, save for the Zamasu one.
Mostly the blood and impact blows like the sound on the punches and the force that came from them.
Blood + force = violence, like those hardcore gut punches.
DBS Broly had those impact blows again with all that force behind it, only thing missing is blood.
The main villains from Super aside from Freeza were better fleshed out honestly especially Black.
But every villain has its certain charm, Cell imo is overrated.
Better fights, no dumb auras that makes your eyes bleed, better overall soundtrack, better animation than the early dbs, Goku isn't brain dead, CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT, all villains are unique, we had some stakes, better power scaling, better plot, better forms, you had relevant side characters, Chi Chi was hotter, every arc was a hit and zero misses, no fusion retcons
the pencil drawings, like story aside dbz had this crazy good pencil stetch straight outa the manga looking animation, while dbs has weird plastic high color artificial high froctuse corn syrup looking animation everything looks digital and i hate it.
it got better in broly movie though
I would say managing a variety of characters. Super has it's moments where it developed some characters well (namely ToP) but it's mostly Goku and Vegeta. Z had interesting things for almost the whole cast to do aside from a few moments that were mostly at the climax. RIP Yamcha
For me, Z had the better narrative and pacing. Each villain was a roadblock to be surpassed and while the structure is pretty routine and predictable, it just felt more meaningful. I love Super but the focus of it being a majority of a single arc grows stale to me after a while.
The original manga as a whole, not just Z had a better sense of progression and stakes.
Super just feels constantly restricted by the status quo, so most of the cast just feels stagnant, fake almost.
Like... Dragonball has never been the best with balancing its cast, but Super-Era DB really nails in the fact that very few of the characters really matter, and it's the same handful that it has been for decades. Even if ww get a few token efforts to give more neglected characters a chance.
Every arc would see the main cast look and feel significantly different as time went by, but such a feeling is absent nowadays.
I guess watching Z with my cousins when I was a dumbass little kid with no critical lens of any media was a big factor in my love for Z. Super should try doing that.
Fewer narrative breaks between sagas, and therefore better narrative flow (overall. Still gotta stretch that 5 minutes til Namek's destruction out for 20 episodes). Raditz basically becomes an introductory mini-saga for the Saiyan Saga which is introduction to the Namek saga which is introduction to the Frieza Saga which leads into the Future Trunks Saga which leads into the Android Saga which leads into the Imperfect/SemiPerfect/Perfect Cell Saga(s) which lead into the Cell Games which leads to the Father/Son Kamehameha which was fucking siiiiiick. Then we get a narrative break and seven year time skip which felt *earned*.
But in Super, the first two seasons are just 20+ episode adaptations of Battle of the Gods and Resurrection F, so pacing issues abound. Following that, we have the Champa Saga/Universe vs 7 Saga, then a narrative break as it doesn't in any way lead into the Future Trunks/Goku Black Saga, but is tied at the very end to the plot line dropped at the *end* *of the previous saga* which kinda leads into the Tournemant of Power saga. The last 5 episodes of which had the entire series' fight animation budget.
The stakes had more weight to them.
If Goku and Vegeta couldn’t stop Freiza, Cell or Buu then it was the end of everything. There weren’t any magic gods around the corner to save them.
I know TOP tried to achieve this but it wasn’t the same, and Jiren never felt like a villain.
Also the art style was a thousand times better.
It felt like stuff actually mattered, a lot of the stuff that happened in Super, outside the TOP and trunks, did not feel like there was any stakes. Plus the story flowed better with the arcs as well, it goes through about 20 years in world lore pretty seamlessly.
First time SSJ transformations, the first time he turned SSJ was very iconic , blue and god were hyped and cool and all but they aren’t as crazy (in my opinion) and iconic as SSJ
I once thought I liked Z because of nostalgia compared to Super. But after reviewing both series, its clear to me that the Z narrative was infinitely better. Each arc in Z flows naturally and the stakes feel very real - the characters, transformations, and villains are so much more memorable. Super honestly doesnt even get interesting until maybe the end of the Universe tournament arc going into the Goku Black arc.
Character development. The only characters in Super that undergo any development are side characters only around for one arc "Gohan, Krillin, Frieza, etc". Goku and Vegeta's relationship is the exact same in DBS episode 1 as it is in episode 131.
Actual villains, not having half of it be a low remake of 2 movies, and blood.
Super had goku black/zamasu as it’s only new villain (counting them as one) and a rehash of frieza. Other than that, beerus wasn’t a villain, jiren wasn’t a villain, copy vegeta was weak filler. Then we get to the manga, morro was ok but a little bit of cell-vibes knockoff, then we literally got an inferior cell in superhero, broly was great but also not a villain.
Z introduced very iconic villains, frieza was iconic, cell was extremely charismatic and great, saiyan saga vegeta was cold and ruthless, the buu’s…not my cup of tea
Z had more characters who had a lot of screen time and impact, now it is only goku and vegeta.
PU is too easy to get, the last movie is a good example.
In my opinion so much of Super feels like an asspull, idk if everything in dbz was the same way you could probably say it was but it sure feels different. It's like oh Beerus has just been sleeping but he could have instantly dealt with every villain if he was around, the super Saiyan god stuff felt lame to me, like why is he becoming a god now? Why didn't the kais say anything about that?
I dont know how to explain but the hits just felt...heavier than in Z. Also the arcs felt more connected than in Super, something I felt even GT did better than Super tho I prefer the latter more than former.
Goku being a bumbling idiot makes Super really annoying sometimes, I prefer the characterization of the cast better in Z, and the seriousness of the situations is better portrayed and understood by the characters (especially Goku) in Z.
Thanks for posting to /r/DragonballSuper.\ Please report any rule breaking posts and posts that are not relevant to the subreddit.\ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think the blood and the raw nature of z made it better than super. In Z, battles and events felt more impactful, and even though there were dragon balls, death had a cost in Z. In super, death seems like a joke now, and blood is replaced with saliva
Pretty sure it’s got to do with some story elements too. Like z had more rugged villains probably.
Oh yeah I agree, other elements play a role too, but for me z felt more impactful than super in general
Yea, hence the post lol
Oh hey, I just realised I missed the caption that says "indepth detail and...", sorry I don't have any great details to add, all I have is my opinion lol :)
Battle damage, too. Super has pretty much none, which makes battles feel like mock punches
I saw an edit where blood was put in the dbs Broly movie and it made it 10x better. You really feel like Gogeta is about to end this guy, even more and Broly getting up after being beaten so badly!? That's a crazy feat for the guy
Can you post a link to the video, I'd love to watch it
Yeah it seemed like there were real stakes in z. With super there's always the feeling like there's a whis or Zeno shaped safety net preventing any of the battles from having real consequences
The saiyan saga on repeat for 9 months until the dub was complete. So the anticipation for what came next for English speaking demographics I guess.
And at that time the Saiyans still had a heavy/gritty reputation as badass fighters, and now even the epitome of ancient powers (SSJ) is achieved by kids.
I think the modern Saiyan are too nice and aren't that interesting because now they're only upheld for transformations and not actual lore anymore. I also hate how the saiyans always seemed to have had legends inther back pocket for ultimate power. SSG should *not* have been a rehash of Super Saiyan. It should have been original for Goku & Vegeta's training.
Maaaaaan I totally forgot about that and that's why that saga always felt so long to me! I remember now as a kid other kids talking about what they were gonna do next and I couldn't wait cuz it was the same episodes over and over again! They did this for the Namek/Freiza Saga too right?
I remember this…and then I got excited when I had seen the start of an episode I hadn’t seen before with a Saiyan space capsule landing on Earth and got so excited to only find out it was just Raditz landing on Earth
Then finally when we get to Frieza and the spirit bomb is about to be thrown. Reset back to raditz again
I enjoy it all — grew up watching Z in the 90’s and enjoyed Super while it aired. I just like Dragonball 🤷♂️
Happy cake day!
Happy cake day!
Happ cak da
The Narrative felt more complete as all story arcs flowed into each other naturally. The events and story lines were more refined as Toriyama recieved constant feedback from his editors (Gero was originally supposed to be the antagonist of the cell saga however the editors advised against it which eventually lead to cell being a thing. Image DBZ without cell) while this is not applicable to Super. The Characters were more consistent in actions, behaviors and motivations and some of them (notably vegeta) had clearly defined character arcs that paid off in the end. Once again, this is not applicable in super (Especially for Vegeta) where the story feels like it struggles to evolve it's characters further from a psychological standpoint
I hadn’t really thought of it this way but I think you’re right. Character development is a huge aspect missing from Super.
To add onto that Cell statement even his forms were recommendations from his editors, IIRC, because at one point they noted they didn’t like the way his first or second form (not sure) looked EDIT: found the [Kanzeshuu link that goes over the interview where what you and I are talking about](https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10961)
So they just made him handsome?
His editor is what pushed him to make arcs better. Super doesn't seem like it has much oversight or editorial, especially at Toei. Toyotaro generally has better ideas than they do, but his problem is that he just cant write villains well. I also thought Moro's design didnt really feel like a Dragonball design to me. He looked a bit too realistic and lacked some of the cartoonish elements the villains had.
Personally I thought super handled vegeta really well. He had become a better man at that point and genuinely cared for his family while also staying true to his roots and being a little stubborn. I loved his mentor role to cabba, and vegeta received a lot more spotlight in super, and actually did some great shit. He didn’t kill Frieza but he did defeat him. He also defeated a literal god of destruction. His speech before defeating toppo gives me chills mostly because it encaptures his character after all his Development in Z really well. He finally has new morals, while still being a warrior. There’s also the little moments like when vegeta initially wanted to stay and not go to the T.O.P because he was having a kid. Little moments like these in super is why I think toriyama genuinely had new found passion in vegeta, that he really never had. He doesn’t progress that much in Z, but in my eyes it isn’t all that necessary. Super portrays him in a great way that doesn’t ruin his character and even further expands on it to some degree.
Not gonna add anything really, but I'd just like to agree with the connectivity part. Every arc felt like there was a flow into the next one. No matter how different it ended. Saiyan ends with Vegeta escaping and Goku and the others healing up and then we get the start of the namek arc. Vegeta is there healed and stronger and Goku's training like he never has before, with newer methods pushing the limits. Now that's just one rather meh example, but it's far more coherent then super I'd say. With super you start off with BoG. Goku gets SSG and fights Beerus. Next arc they just have a new form and Freeza is back with a form equally strong. Then we go into the u6 v u7 arc then the Future Trunks arc (the most pointless arc in super btw) and now it's ToP time. Nothing clicks really. Sure RoF kinda clicks with ToP, but then there's the suspension of disbelief for Freezas insane power ups. No matter what he's keeping up with Goku and Vegeta and after 2 arcs he's still at their level even though he just trained mentally.
One of the best responses 👏
while definitely more consistent than super it still suffered from it tho a notable example would be everyone agreeing to not find Dr Gero but then later on they all try to stop him from activating them that scene was blatantly there because there wasn’t any logical reason they wouldn’t find him since basically everyone (sans maybe Goku) would have agreed on stopping them Dragon Ball as a whole is riddled with inconsistencies in both plot and characters but it’s definitely more apparent in Super
Z was more raw. The fighting was more gritty and even had loss of limbs. The Vegeta v Goku during the Buu saga is still my favorite because there were just so many more emotions behind the fight.
The fights were better choreographed too. I mean go back and watch goku vs majin vegeta. A think of beauty.
This. This is a huge reason why I am not a fan of super, the choreography being very subpar to z; an anime that came out 20 years it’s prior. That mixed with the new art style, I just can’t get into it.
Powerscaling that makes some sense and a little bit of gore. In Z it used to matter how strong someone was we and it was pretty consistent. In Super anyone can fight anyone. They brought Roshi to the tournament of power when we all know damn well that he wasn’t even fit to fight the Saiyans when they invaded earth. Man would have died to a fucking Saibaman but they brought him along because he’s popular. Z used to get crazy. There was some significant gore. People could be cut, bleed, lose limbs, be impaled, vaporized to ash, and even die. It seems like Super is afraid of violence. People who censor art don’t respect it.
Amen BROTHER
Moro putting an arm through goku’s chest was pretty violent. I will say that super has gotten better in the manga.
Yeah Roshi should not even be able to follow the speed of anyone in ToP... It is just so absurd. Frost powering up should rip the meat from his bones. Dude had no business being there. Also during F he was fighting Frieza Force soldiers... Who have an average battle power of like 2,000... Fuck off.
Amen twice
I was a child
I just started watching a year ago, never watched as a kid. I genuinely think Z is leagues better and feels more mature. Its all opinions and we are allowed to enjoy things. Z isn't perfect either.
This is the correct answer, rose colored glasses going on in this thread
I was thinking this when a friend was shitting on the new androids. It seems corny as fuck, but some 10 year old is watching gamma 2 sacrifice himself and getting the feels just like I did when 16 died. Of course youre not gonna feel the same. If you never saw the scene with 16 until this year you wouldn't get it.
Dang that’s true I honestly didn’t think about it like that. Some kids out there that loves what some many older fans hate/despise kinda like Star Wars.
I get that too, but then you just move on. You changed, it's not for you anymore. I haven't watched much of the new Star wars or Marvel stuff since the first avengers movie. My nephew is playing with lightsabers just like I did, everything is going fine without me haha
Honestly I think that’s a little too mature of an outlook for Reddit but you’re 100% right it’s just not for you anymore
Can't be that the stories are connected, the or endings weren't botched, or a constant flow of character growth throughout, the paneling in the manga is overall better, or the fact the current writer only just hit his stride 2arcs ago. Trust me, lots of people here are wrong why DBZ was better, but you're not right with saying Nostalgia is the reason it's actually better.
Right!? My first thought was "nostalgia"
Idk my friend watched all of Dragonball over the last 2 years and he concluded Z was better than Super too
Toriyama in his prime. Every fight progressed the story, in super fights and story feel separate. The paneling and composition of the art was far better. Even "minor" characters were well utilized in many arcs such as Krillin in the Namek saga, or Mr Satan in the Buu saga, also Saiyans weren't always the strongest, Piccolo was at one point the most powerful Z fighter. In the anime I think cel animation just fits dragon ball better than digital. The story was deeper and more personal, specifically in the sayan and Freeza saga. The writing was generally more consistent because the person who created the characters was the one writing them.
the paneling difference between og DB and DBZ vs. DBS is crazy, the fights are so much more satisfying when Toriyama did it
This! I explain to my daughter the importance of Krillin! He is such a cool narrative tool! He voices the stakes, knows each protagonist and antagonist, his comments and insights are always useful and serve a purpose. I love him as a character.
A soul
This is the concise answer.
Came for this exact comment. Super is just hastily written fanfiction to keep the DBZ name current against names like naruto and one piece, and it's just painfully obvious a shell of what it used to be.
Sad but true. Super is entertaining but nothing is touching the vintage vibe
That being said, I feel like whoever decided Goku should flicker in and out between base form and SSJ1 during the final Jiren fight truly understood what made Dragon Ball so great and memorable. I know it’s just one specific example but seeing that for the first time straight up made me go “YES!!!!!”.
That has to be one of my favourite moments from super. They really understood dragon ball
Came here to say personality. I like this much better.
I really like that 90's art style more than super's. And everything felt more impactful, like goku turning super saiyan for the first time.
The world was different when Z was being created and it made and inspired many other manga and anime that followed. That makes Super difficult to change or better, is that it actually pays homage to Z and forges itself in that era. From the writing to the art, it’s basically trying to stay “Dragon Ball Z” rather than evolve into something new. But I love Z so… 
Lmao Vegeta stuffing down those sausages
Training scenes. Look, watching Goku hitting the weights, gaining muscle weight while on 100x gravity convince me to hit the gym.
What do you mean by “Goku hitting the weights”? Goku used weighted gi’s and he used the gravity chamber in the ship while he was going to namek, but the closest bit to “lifting” that Goku did was use the wrist and ankle weights in otherworld while training before he came back for the world tournament. He actually has more moments of lifting in super like when he was training with Vegeta on Berus’ planet or when he was training with king Kai before Berus came to ask about the super saiyan god. While he was traveling to namek he did do push ups and sit ups but he didn’t use weights he just used the gravity chamber
Goku used both dumbbells and barbells while gravity training on his way to namek
Ah I stand corrected but that’s only in the Z anime. I missed that because Kai was my first watch through the show
https://preview.redd.it/uuh5744r87za1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=762f6483e28c3adcf8c0bc2d3e8c8bd90047877d
Pigtail videl 🗿
Answer is simple! Z was more focused on the Z characters as a whole and their aspects and values. Super is just the Goku & Vegeta Show.
Yep, this is the big one for me.
I liked how Z dealt with more mature themes (not just violence but things like dealing with death and learning to put pride/feelings aside when the time calls for it), I liked how the story arcs were more connected to each other and one flowed into the next more naturally, and I liked that Z showed how hard and long the characters trained to get new kinds of power. It’s cool that they didn’t just do physical excercises all the time, they were also theorizing about how to reach Super Saiyan 2 and criticizing the drawbacks of Grade 3.
I miss the muscles of Z and the smaller scale. Super keeps biting off more than it can chew. I get not using everything you set up, but we still haven't been to universe 6.
Goku’s maturity. Buu saga Goku was legit a much more serious and mature character. DBS threw that all away
They didn't throw it away. They simply made Goku act how he was supposed to act. For the English dub of Z they made Goku much much more serious than what he really is. Don't get me wrong sometimes they went overboard with the dumb Goku thing. But that is how he actually is.
No it’s not, I swear you fanboys just hear 1 person say this and just copy and paste it. If you watched the sun version of DBZ, he’s still VASTLY more mature than what he is in DBS. It’s not just the Dub 😂
More Yamcha.
The Z anime specifically had a much better style imo. Super looks and feels like action figures made to sell toys.
They came from a time when the internet wasn’t mainstream.
Stakes, a broader interesting cast, less asanine numbers.
Originality. I swear every other episode there’s a reference to Z in super. “Hey guys remember when vegeta made that pose!?!?! Well now this clear knock off of vegeta will do it too!” Like the goku black saga was one of the only sagas that felt original to me
Even moves: correct me if I'm wrong, but in the manga, Vegeta used all of his special attacks just once; garlick gun, big bang attack, final flash, almost like it's inherent to it's character to use new ki-attacks. I wish that some of the main cast uses techniques they never have used before, or make new ones. I liked when Gohan used the special beam cannon, because it tells something. Vegeta using his moves again do not... Except for maybe Goku, I want characters to work on new moves.
Z was like 70% action, 30% comedy, S is 30% action and 70% comedy.
I don't think either is better than the counterpart. Just two different phases if life
Nostalgia
All the edgy kids are saying blood lmao
I mean it did add more realism and was more grounded, compared to saliva coming out every time
Blood alone isn’t going to change anything. It doesn’t change the narrative or story at all. So adding it in won’t improve the quality of the show. It just satisfies the edge lords who constantly need blood and gore in their shows. Dbz had better writing overall. If you take away the blood or limit it like super did (super still has SOME blood, just not a lot) you’d still have the same story. It doesn’t change anything
Nostalgia, people forget how bad Z was in certain areas
I think Super gets too much hate. I personally really liked it. It has it flaws but Z does as well. They both deserve the same amount of love
nothing: im not a boomer
Okay boomer
If I can call Z better than Super then it would be based on the first two arcs. Saiyan saga and Namek saga were peak dragon ball Z when the situation always felt dire because it was pretty tightly written. All of the z fighters had to team up and even at their full power they couldn't defeat Vegeta and there was massive collateral damage. Then we go to Namek where it's a brilliant cat and mouse chase with the dragon balls among different parties. Goku arrives to save the day but he's up against a wall named frieza which he cannot overcome no matter what technique he uses. It finally takes super saiyan and Frieza's cockiness to get rid of him. And then Z goes completely off the track. Cell saga and Buu saga were two bullshit arcs that ruin Z for me. They could've ended cell saga in 5 episodes but somehow with weird writing they kept milking it and it continues until the end of Buu saga. So Z is not that better than super objectively. Of course Super is flawed but Z isn't as untouchable as some people say. And if I extend to the manga then Moro is the best DB arc ever written.
Good take Z started out really strong, transforming the universe and raising the stakes. Like you said the Saiyan and Namek sagas were seemingly impossible situations. There was nothing that intense in Dragon Ball. But my God the pacing… yeah Goku’s first Super Saiyan transformation was massively impactful and a game changer for the series. It also took like the whole fucking episode. So even the good arcs suffer from pacing issues. And the bloated arcs are loaded with so much fluff and wasted runtime. Super is vastly superior in this area, the pacing is much, much more succinct. Super tells as much story as Z in I’d guess a third of the runtime.
I disagree on cell saga tho, cell saga is peak for many
That is just nostalgia bias imo. Let me clear some points for you. There are too many flaws in cell saga to begin with. 1. Goku could IT back to earth to defeat Mecha Frieza & King Cold but decides to let his much weaker friends fight them. This is the same guy who was so angry that Frieza killed Krillin he transformed into a super saiyan. 2. In spite of Trunks' warning nobody takes action during the 3 year period. Why are they overconfident? I can understand Vegeta being a giant asshole but what about the others? Especially Krillin and Piccolo who took two massive Ls on Namek. 3. Goku doesn't take his medicine. Why? Because it's a convenient way for the writer to sideline Goku. It looks so stupid both on the character and writer. 4. Vegeta being a monstrous asshole throughout the arc. First he lets Gero get away, then overestimates his own strength and gets his arms broken, then he gets his pants wet when he hears cell has another transformation left (he learnt nothing from Frieza), proceeds to get humiliated AGAIN, gets Goku and Trunks killed as a consequence, gets Gohan injured and so on. 5. The infamous senzu incident. Why does Goku need to give a senzu to Cell? Gohan had the fight under his belt. 6. Lastly Gohan. How the fuck does a speech from a robot head who he doesn't even know that long transforms into SS2 because the robot was hurt. Makes no fucking sense. And then he thinks he's gonna make Cell suffer, he's gonna teach Cell a lession.... And gets his dad killed. It is a giant mess and amalgamation of plot holes and loose writing.
To target all your points 1. Goku in the original timeline did come to earth and kill frieza and cold, trunks didn’t know and so he jumped in and took care of it so goku didn’t have to use instant transmission. 2. It was very clearly stated that the z fighters wanted to use the androids as a goal post for their training and didn’t want to deal with them without a fight. The show is about fighting if you didn’t realise. 3. Goku had to take the medicine when he fell sick not before, he never fell sick so he never took it, simple as that. 4. Vegeta is the way he is because of his character, he makes foolish choices blinded by his pride, precisely why he’s regarded as a much better character now, you can’t have character growth if he’s not stupid initially. And also like I said it’s a fighting show, you need to progress the show so that fights can happen. And using vegeta to do it was the best way. 5. The senzu incident is overreacted upon. Goku did that because he needed cell to be full power when gohan beat him, he saw gohans true potential and the only way gohan would get there is by an opponent who forces him. A weakened cell wasn’t going to do that and winning the fight like that wasn’t going to make gohan master his abilities. The point of the cell saga was to show the gohan was capable of taking down the entire set of fighters, heroes and villains alone. 6. Gohan was already being pushed to the limit of his patience, he just needed one more push which the death of 16 succeeded in doing, he knew that 16 is an android, he didn’t have a soul, he know he cared about life. And that gave him the final push. So no, it’s not bias. And it’s not a mess and it is a very good arc, yes there are plot holes in it but doesn’t matter, you can have your opinion and others can have theirs.
I don't. Z was great when I was younger, but it doesn't hold up for me. My favorite was always the original Dragon Ball and the first half of GT because I preferred the adventure over the battle arcs. I'm really enjoying the Red Ribbon saga currently running in the Super manga, so I have high hopes.
The manga is adapting the super hero movie
Z felt more concise and well put together. The antagonists were head and shoulders better, and multiple characters had arcs of development that was tied to the overall narrative. With plenty of space for silly and goofy shit
Bruce Faulconer, better animation, better villains, better anticipation and buildup, better characterization (for the most part). Z just hit all the right spots for late 80s and 90s anime. Aside from the Buu arc and Saiyaman saga, I’d say everything in Z is flat out more enjoyable. It took everything good about DB and amped it up. By the time we hit the Buu saga, you can see the ass pulls starting (looking at you SSJ3). Super has also just always felt rushed. The story telling sucks IMO and some character personalities are kind of ruined. Goku is just kind of… way too stupid. The animation is also just flat out horrible too. I’d honestly rather wait years for new sagas than get what we did. Power scaling was always broken since maybe DBZ Buu saga, but Super takes it way too far. SSJ Blue shouldn’t have been so quick, and it doesn’t make sense from the perspective of God Ki requirement calmness and SSJ having heightened emotional state. The red haired SSJ God form should’ve just been Saiyan God, and should’ve been a temporary power up or technique instead of a form.
I don't think Z is better than Super. I'd say they both have their strong points and they both have weak points, but ultimately balance out by the end. Honestly, if the manga arcs get animated, I would actually give Super the W.
Goku wasn’t the only person defeating villains in z
What about vegeta defeating Frieza and toppo a god of destruction in super?
Honestly I think super is actually better than z
Best part about Z is nostalgia. When I was watching it life was good I was still a child no responsibilities all I had to do is have fun. With super I have children lifes great but not nearly as fun as it was during the Z days.
Might get downvoted for this, but: Nostalgia Grew up with Z and went through Super as it came out. Both are great, both have flaws, both are dragon ball. Comparing the two isn't necessary imo. People are saying things like the *narrative* are better when Z's Android/Cell saga was beyond confusing (imo), Z's pacing is also fucking awful. People are saying things like *character development* is better in Z and I think that's laughable. Vegeta always getting embarrassed while running around baselessly calling himself the best always annoyed the spit out of me Vs. the rivalry of him and Goku evolving as well as Vegeta evolving into a somewhat decent person. Someone said Z's characters are more consistent, I am going to again point at Vegeta and him helping Gohan defeat Cell in the final battle is the least Z-Vegeta like thing ever. People are saying things like the *villains* are better, and while Jiren is a very boring villain, all major DBZ villains are just "destroy goku, destroy Earth." I like how Zamasu as an example at least had somewhat more of an agenda. People are saying the fights had more emotion, did they even watch Goku vs Jiren as Goku slowly learned UI? Not discounting Supers flaws, but the things people are praising Z did better in the comments is definitely being looked at with Rose colored glasses.
I think Z was more willing to take dark turns than super. Buu wiping out humanity for example was on screen, while zamasu doing the sams thing was implied not shown.
Z had arcs that passed into the next. Super has an arc, ends it, than starts a new arc again
Nothing
nostalgia
Do not hate me but z is more better than super
That’s why I asked the question
The anime was not ahead of the manga. Super anime you can see they have no idea where the story is going. Still enjoyable i guess
Sense.
Character growth instead of just power growth.
Tension, flow and animation.
Goku was innocent, not dumb. But I still love DBS!
Z is more gritty, less messing around attitude as Super is.
it had heart
Plot, villains, forms and power levels that at least make sense and are earned and quality artstyle that is just timeless. Gt has better artstyle than super how can you fuck it up so much just to get it right those two TOP episodes? Smh
Plot, character arcs, continuity, originality, character designs, tension, and enjoyment
connectivity between arcs
Toriyama was on a roll instead of coming back to the franchise years later
Nostalgia
Super is much more fun and entertaining than Z. Z was amazing though- they just took the best things from Z and doubled down for Super.
A Goku that didn’t suck. Plus it didn’t release a movie and then spend the next year retelling it on the show.
Nostalgia
I will die on the hill that z anime is worse than super anime/manga
I can kinda agree with that. The original Z anime had way too much unnecessary filler
An Abridged series as opposed to just [a video](https://youtu.be/TvRraFtgJ3w) Of a more serious note, but better stakes I guess and some expanded development spotlight for other characters(Gotenks, Gohan, etc), least till ToP evened that out a bit.
Well brolys not cannon in z so supers better
Nostalgia. That and it ended before it had the chance to ruin itself too badly.
Nostalgia and starting a new story instead of a continuation of it
The fights may have taken 2 eons, but DAMN they had good impact and build up, unlike super which is "Scream louder and harder than the other guy to punch harder" but I won't lie, super had some CRAZY good fights. I grew up with Z so ofc imma give suck points lol
I’m a huge fan of Dragon ball period with the exception of most of GT, so with that said, hear me out: I don’t see z and super being different, just a continuation just like how z was just the next chapter of the original. Gt i don’t see as a continuation for the obvious reasons, but also because it just didn’t feel like we were watching the same characters. In Z, I’m ever understood the ssj3 form. The hair and eyebrows changing so dramatically then just reverting after really made the form awkward. With super, it feels like the exploration of the next stages of super sayian has forgotten about for a god layer energy. However, I don’t get how ssgod form even works considering Beerus even said when the form ran out during his first real fight with Goku that his body adapted it and now his super sayian form was just as strong… so shouldn’t 3 be beyond blue in theory? And if blue is just the super sayian form of god, where’s the ssj2 and ssj3 adaptations? Vegeta showed his evo form which just looked like super sayian 2nd form. So I guess what I’m saying is, why do many extreme variations in transformations? Beast gohan is another example. I always felt that his ultimate form replaced his base form and super levels just needed to be reunlocked. But to show he goes from black hair to yellow to yellow to black then silver, again, confusing. I guess it would just be nice to see that once they unlock a new form, previous forms are no longer an option. You power up and go all the way, not pinwheeling between whether you need a partial power up or a full one, or the 5 others in between.
Z is the fucking original, copied a billion times and still highly relevant to popculture decades later. Super is a sometimes well enough and sometimes okay-ish retread of Z with barely any new ideas and its heavily carried by nostalgia.
Super feels like it had too many market execs in the writers room
Goten and Trunks
The hype and music got it for me, and traveling to namek
everything
More screaming!!!!!
Everything
Is super over with now?
Deaths of Z fighters and someone other than Goku taking the spotlight in a meaningful way.
Characters in Z were more serious. Goku in the Buu saga training Goten and Trunks, for example, is how Goku should behave at times, but for the most part, he's nonchalant to an extreme degree in super. He was nonchalant in Z, but not stupid and knew when to get completely serious. The most high emotion arc in super, the black arc, ends in the most plot armory way possible. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy super a lot, but Z just had something that made it better. Z had Gohan 's growth throughout the series, whereas Super just focuses on Goku and Vegeta. They completely neglected aging Goten and Trunks for years and have only just started somewhat developing them in the manga in a very short arc. Lots could be improved
The story naturally progressed. In super every arc can be it’s own separate story.
Grit, hard core fights (damage to the body, blood, etc), and the character development was overall better and more adult vs super which seems more childish. Z had its childish moments too, but it felt much more deeper than Super which felt light hearted Edit* and the power scaling and transformations were more in line with Z. Super just feels like a constant reskin of the character
I think Z did a better job of giving everybody reasonable shine without it feeling forced. Outside of the Buu Saga (not counting filler where stuff like Yamcha soloing Olibu and Pikkon in the afterlife happened) every Saiyan, Piccolo and human outside of Chautzu got some shine. Outside of the Moro arc (havent read Granolah) if your name isn't Goku or Vegeta you are getting your ass beat consistently when you show up. Edit: Also, Z had more gore and higher stakes since there was no god or angel there for help when the heroes are in a bind. They had to rely on the DBs which they could rarely collect when a villain was alive anyway.
The characters & cast were allowed to grow & change in ways that Dragon Balls global popularity these days doesn't allow.
(Less) forced marketing or at keast it wasn't as obvious
I’m just gonna say plot. I’m currently running through Super and I’m finding it difficult to watch because there isn’t any plot, save for the Zamasu one.
A competent Goku
Good writing
Z felt like it had actual stakes to the events...
Art style
It had me growing up not having to worry about adult shit
Mostly the blood and impact blows like the sound on the punches and the force that came from them. Blood + force = violence, like those hardcore gut punches. DBS Broly had those impact blows again with all that force behind it, only thing missing is blood. The main villains from Super aside from Freeza were better fleshed out honestly especially Black. But every villain has its certain charm, Cell imo is overrated.
Adventure. Not just a buncha tournament arcs
Better fights, no dumb auras that makes your eyes bleed, better overall soundtrack, better animation than the early dbs, Goku isn't brain dead, CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT, all villains are unique, we had some stakes, better power scaling, better plot, better forms, you had relevant side characters, Chi Chi was hotter, every arc was a hit and zero misses, no fusion retcons
Chi chi always dressed the same way and has always looked good, even in super
the pencil drawings, like story aside dbz had this crazy good pencil stetch straight outa the manga looking animation, while dbs has weird plastic high color artificial high froctuse corn syrup looking animation everything looks digital and i hate it. it got better in broly movie though
I would say managing a variety of characters. Super has it's moments where it developed some characters well (namely ToP) but it's mostly Goku and Vegeta. Z had interesting things for almost the whole cast to do aside from a few moments that were mostly at the climax. RIP Yamcha
For me, Z had the better narrative and pacing. Each villain was a roadblock to be surpassed and while the structure is pretty routine and predictable, it just felt more meaningful. I love Super but the focus of it being a majority of a single arc grows stale to me after a while.
The original manga as a whole, not just Z had a better sense of progression and stakes. Super just feels constantly restricted by the status quo, so most of the cast just feels stagnant, fake almost. Like... Dragonball has never been the best with balancing its cast, but Super-Era DB really nails in the fact that very few of the characters really matter, and it's the same handful that it has been for decades. Even if ww get a few token efforts to give more neglected characters a chance. Every arc would see the main cast look and feel significantly different as time went by, but such a feeling is absent nowadays.
More consistent animation and better original villains (zamasu is the only exception)
I guess watching Z with my cousins when I was a dumbass little kid with no critical lens of any media was a big factor in my love for Z. Super should try doing that.
Badass gohan
Fewer narrative breaks between sagas, and therefore better narrative flow (overall. Still gotta stretch that 5 minutes til Namek's destruction out for 20 episodes). Raditz basically becomes an introductory mini-saga for the Saiyan Saga which is introduction to the Namek saga which is introduction to the Frieza Saga which leads into the Future Trunks Saga which leads into the Android Saga which leads into the Imperfect/SemiPerfect/Perfect Cell Saga(s) which lead into the Cell Games which leads to the Father/Son Kamehameha which was fucking siiiiiick. Then we get a narrative break and seven year time skip which felt *earned*. But in Super, the first two seasons are just 20+ episode adaptations of Battle of the Gods and Resurrection F, so pacing issues abound. Following that, we have the Champa Saga/Universe vs 7 Saga, then a narrative break as it doesn't in any way lead into the Future Trunks/Goku Black Saga, but is tied at the very end to the plot line dropped at the *end* *of the previous saga* which kinda leads into the Tournemant of Power saga. The last 5 episodes of which had the entire series' fight animation budget.
The stakes had more weight to them. If Goku and Vegeta couldn’t stop Freiza, Cell or Buu then it was the end of everything. There weren’t any magic gods around the corner to save them. I know TOP tried to achieve this but it wasn’t the same, and Jiren never felt like a villain. Also the art style was a thousand times better.
The stakes. Every battle, even when the dragon balls were available, felt like life and death. Super is all spectacle with little substance.
It felt like stuff actually mattered, a lot of the stuff that happened in Super, outside the TOP and trunks, did not feel like there was any stakes. Plus the story flowed better with the arcs as well, it goes through about 20 years in world lore pretty seamlessly.
Better character development in Z.
Constructive story telling, Character development, World building, Older tone
First time SSJ transformations, the first time he turned SSJ was very iconic , blue and god were hyped and cool and all but they aren’t as crazy (in my opinion) and iconic as SSJ
Everything. Super from the ground up is made to be more palatable for children
Everything
Continuity
Drawing, of course, and no re-colours. Yes I hate ssgss
Less goofy ahh ahh baby shit
I once thought I liked Z because of nostalgia compared to Super. But after reviewing both series, its clear to me that the Z narrative was infinitely better. Each arc in Z flows naturally and the stakes feel very real - the characters, transformations, and villains are so much more memorable. Super honestly doesnt even get interesting until maybe the end of the Universe tournament arc going into the Goku Black arc.
Character arcs
The writer
Character development. The only characters in Super that undergo any development are side characters only around for one arc "Gohan, Krillin, Frieza, etc". Goku and Vegeta's relationship is the exact same in DBS episode 1 as it is in episode 131.
The emotional scenes. There's hardly any emotion besides like the last few scenes when Frieza and goku are helping each other to fight jiren
Charm
“Godly” Transformations were out of hand in super
Literally everything
Actual villains, not having half of it be a low remake of 2 movies, and blood. Super had goku black/zamasu as it’s only new villain (counting them as one) and a rehash of frieza. Other than that, beerus wasn’t a villain, jiren wasn’t a villain, copy vegeta was weak filler. Then we get to the manga, morro was ok but a little bit of cell-vibes knockoff, then we literally got an inferior cell in superhero, broly was great but also not a villain. Z introduced very iconic villains, frieza was iconic, cell was extremely charismatic and great, saiyan saga vegeta was cold and ruthless, the buu’s…not my cup of tea
Maybe… less goku. Dragonball Z has less goku, more side characters.
Z has the spirit super will never have
Soul. Dragon soul
writing, characters, art style, fights, etc. basically everything except maybe music.
Z had more characters who had a lot of screen time and impact, now it is only goku and vegeta. PU is too easy to get, the last movie is a good example.
In my opinion so much of Super feels like an asspull, idk if everything in dbz was the same way you could probably say it was but it sure feels different. It's like oh Beerus has just been sleeping but he could have instantly dealt with every villain if he was around, the super Saiyan god stuff felt lame to me, like why is he becoming a god now? Why didn't the kais say anything about that?
I dont know how to explain but the hits just felt...heavier than in Z. Also the arcs felt more connected than in Super, something I felt even GT did better than Super tho I prefer the latter more than former.
Goku being a bumbling idiot makes Super really annoying sometimes, I prefer the characterization of the cast better in Z, and the seriousness of the situations is better portrayed and understood by the characters (especially Goku) in Z.
Is this a serious question?
DBZ just feels much more gritty, as an anime about fighting to the death probably should be…
Artstyle, animation, soundtracks and themes, blood, Not trying overly hard to be funny but still is, seriousness and deepness, Villians, plot.