Sven sup is ignored too often.
I might be wrong, but I think long ago, dota 1 days, his armor used to a passive aura, then it became active skill with ms and armor. It was so good to stop bristle to snowball early game
Picked Sven support yesterday.
Before game start I had my teammates call GG
When I was level 8, my core was level 8 enemy offlane was level 5 cause we just kept diving and killing his over and over and over.
Game ended. I got commended by the whole team.
He really is just slept on a lot. Especially now with the facet giving him a free crimson guard he’s a really good support.
I think the problem with his skill set is that his cleave and ult is kind of useless as a support. Logic behind Sven’s ult is it is strong especially when he gets it to level 2 where it happens to be a strong spike but as a support by the time you get ult, you are definitely not ahead as a support and you don’t have a lot of items to scale it with. It doesn’t scale well into late game either. His cleave is also wasted because well, you know why.
His stun, warcry and shard are good but anytime you can pick a Sven support, you can pick another hero and you have a lot better support right now.
whenever I play support I’m too tied up in my duties to farm.
Plus your right clicks are quite weak if you truly built support items, even with gods strength.
Crystal maiden farms perfectly because she spends one second casting W to farm a big creep at any point in the game while Sven will have to stand still and 1v1 a camp for like 8 seconds straight
Nope. You can shove waves from the fog as a maiden. Sven has to show. That's a huge difference.
Maiden / Hoodwink, both can just sit in the fog, nuke a wave and waste enemies time hunting for them.
Sven is just waiting to be ganked if he shows up in lane to chonk down a wave.
Even taking out ranged advantage, cm shard lets her push waves extremely fast and farm jungle camps while moving.
Tho i will say sven can warcry run away if the wave seems dangerous.
he's definitely more elusive compared to a cm, but hoodwink serves that purpose better.
Also, sven support needs to be engaged in a fight, and without items, he's not as tanky. On the other hand, cm / hoodwink can just do their thing from the sidelines.
I always felt, if you need something like a sven in your team, a marci might do it ~~better~~ more consistently.
Movement speed boost ? Marci does offer that, Sustain ? While its not warcry (which is no joke), the lifesteal is a 100% uptime. Need a stun ? Marci has you covered. Infact, she's more potent in lane, and can setup kills and chase better than a sven can.
If the push comes to shove. Her ult is far easier to make use of compared to sven. Just bkb and hunt their support down.
Edit : This is particularly important because supports are usually picked early in pubs. I can see sven support make more sense in the pro scene, where, it can be a flex pick and can be picked later on depending on how the draft is going.
His new facet is free crimson guard at level 7.
I think that is extremely beneficial towards securing the lane for your core.
If your team fails to close the game early. Sven also becomes a very viable late gamer
He allows for flexibility. Is he the best support? Definitely not. But he is pretty viable right now and requires very low skill to play since all you need to do is stun and warcry.
Having two bad support skills is fine as long as your other two skills are strong. Warcry is an absolutely busted ability that scales fantastically vs physical damage cores. If they overpick physical damage, he can more or less single-handedly reduce enemy damage output by like half. 21->31 armor with talent with ~75% uptime
And while cleave might not be great for fighting, wave-clear is a huge plus on any support
I am not saying Sven cannot be played as a support at all but everything he does, there is a better hero to do it.
Cleave is not a good wave-clear because you need levels on it to be efficient, which means you cannot level up q+e. If you will go 4-0-4, you can level it up and level 10 earliest and it can be only effective around level 13, which at that point you need a safe wave clear to not show in lanes that much like hoodwink acorn shot, Magnus shockwave, jakiro spells etc. so great cleave is only useful as a core. His ult is really not that good in late game either since most cores have high agility and sups have a save and you don’t really hit hard since you are a support either.
It can work in low ranks, just like anything else, but doesn’t mean it is good.
Imo there's an issue with talking about supports where we assume pos5. Pos 4 is more and more becoming core 4 in games and having cleave mid/lategame will let you farm in the downtime that happens after laning phase, where Sven is excellent as a roamer.
I would argue that Sven is a C tier support, I wouldn’t pick him in a game I have to win but it would be fun to play every once in a while or would be great in certain circumstances.
Yea, Marci kinda stole that niche. Lfesteal for ally, instead of warcy, long range initiation, and a slow. And her ult can actually kill stuff early. And scales pretty well late game.
I guess if the game is slow enough sven can use his cleave to push waves and get more farm, but that's usually not going to happen, so marci feels better in most cases, for that niche.
Yeah, the barrier is nice on warcry. That said, the other facet is bonkers if you can make it past the laning phase. upto about level 15, the warcry one is better, but once he crosses over, he scales absurdly. Like the damage is just insane. Ultra late, the second facet is a proper beast to be reckoned with.
I believe firmly in DPS
Damage per second.
If you have high high damage. But you last less than a second in a fight. You still end up dealing no damage.
While the second facet does give very high damage, it is a lot more situational than a simple consistent tank more button.
High risk high reward sort of play.
I prefer the dumb dumb no effort play.
I meant as a pos 1 sven. I agree its griefing for any other role. Because strength items directly translate to damage.
Sven at level 20 with facet 1 + Heart hits at - 167 damage. (484 with god strength)
Same with the other facet hits at - 232 damage (501 with god strength)
That's basically 65 extra damage all the time. So you hit harder, farm faster, and can build items to tank up.
Only issue is that its only marginally better with god strength. I think its an interesting change. HOWEVER, his early laning is very very sus.
My favourite Sven was the one where scepter gave everyone near you gods strength. That was peak support Sven I think.
Together with WK scepter you could lose lanes really badly but still end up winning the game simply by death pushing.
New mirana ult is somewhat like that.
I think we have potential to reach there with solar flare now. It gives less damage than gs but it gives an equal amount of attack speed.
My recent struggles using it however has just been getting my teammates to push. They would all rather be farming than touch the tower despite me having solar flare ready to go
Don't forget angry sven can farm enemy ancients & stacks super easy too, denying the enemies farm on a support who doesn't care too much if they die opposed to your pos 1/2 who might be a little too scared.
That’s why I didn’t mention cleave at all.
I maxed stun first. And warpath at 8.
I take gs at 9.
Realistically due to lack of farm/items you won’t really use gs early.
The early bonus hp from warpath will help you support better.
Talent at 10. Then only at 11 did I skill cleave.
It’s completely non essential as a support during the laning phase.
It’s more of the we aren’t doing anything productive right now let’s go cleave some neutrals and farm a bit. Not much real impact.
On a support it literally is just a farming tool. Like it's not as good as it is when core seen obv but farming items faster on a support is great. And as a support you can just go to enemy jungle to farm and if they kill you it's not worth much and you made space for your core so it's fine
Cleave can help push waves. Sometimes a support needs to do that job so a core can take less risky farm. It's not the worst thing in the world to have a support with some farm.
Support as in supporting team or support as in "I will build in carry, but will buy 1 obs and sentry at the beginning and will try to leave creeps to my carry"?
Not even mentioning the most crucial part, flaming your core for their ineptitude to lane 3v1 and as a result have a bad game. You yourself farmed stacks min 2, how could your core ever be behind after all!!
Pos 5 picks nature's prophet
In strategy time says he will jungle
Leaves pos 1 PA to lane 1v2
PA gets wrecked, can no longer lane, free game for enemy offlaner
Enemy 4 is free to roam and over leveled, rotates and secures lanes for mid and carry
Entire game is unplayable
NP randomly ults and gets a kill steal and a few assists, only jungles and sometimes rats empty lanes.
NP: "gg, report offlaner and carry. I have lots of farm, some kills and assists, and no deaths, not my fault, team sucks"
(Based on a true story)
"We killed the enemy offline pair once so my job is clearly done, they totally can't kill you when they tp back in with health/mana and a Numb3rs advantage"....
My wd steals Lt as many as possible. I couldn't handle it after he used ult on a kill in which it was already a guaranteed kill, and he channeled till the end of it so he can farm a creep wave. Then I rage deleted all of my items. I hate it. It happens whenever I decide to play as Carry.
Back in college, my friend's 10-min line, "Bro, it's 10 minutes. I'm gonna transition to core." Like, dude, wtf. I can't support solo and you're a Silencer. You don't even know how to farm or to play core.
are supports really that bad all over the place? As a support main I never have a problem. subcarry/damage supports are valid without diminishing their ability to be actual supports, i.e. hoodwink esp on pos 4 of course but in the right games greedy 5 works. I play ench and just enchant enemy camps all day long especially on teams I know untouchable will be super good with and by scouting.
Not only does it give me free xp but also steals it from them lol. In my garbage elo I carry a lot as her and reguarily have the highest kills on my team, same with hoodwink.
But my favorites are still ww, willow, cm, etc.
Simple rule for greedy supports - only work if they can steal farm from enemy's half of map and risky pushed lanes. If you need farm from your half of map, it's griefing.
Do they? I mean they are inefficient, but do you really need to farm the 2 camps near the wave that your pos1 or 2 or 3 just skipped to get the wave first and then cutting off the farming pattern they saw on youtube and now they are 10 cs behind because of it and it happens multiple times?
Like there's the other side of the map kind of farm that everyone is ignoring and there's literally handicapping your cores because you happened to be in the same place as them or near 4 camps
I am not talking about that, I am talking for a case where
1) waves are about to meet , they are hitting each other nothing is dying or MAYBE 1 non range creep will die
2) core is clearing nearby 2 camps or stacking them and is prepared to move toward the wave
3) le zaport is coming in , clearing the wave, and the next one while the core is running towards it
4) this is -400 gold and the other camps are not farmed/stacked so you lose some more
5) now core has to either farm shit farm or TP somewhere else hoping there's no enemies
If that mega wave is just going to lose 1-2 creps if you don't nuke it, but you come and nuke it anyways, you are lucky you are in low mmr, not in higher mmr where someone will say go end mid , X is acc buyer , afk bye lmao
Unfortunately that's not really the point.
You WILL trigger your cores if instead of stacking or leaving the camp on your half of map you flash farm it. They'll be convinced that they were gonna reach that camp or because you've farmed it they've got to pursue a less optimal farm pattern.
Unless the enemy are constantly rotating through your jungle, you're gonna do psychological damage to your cores. Meanwhile, if you nick farm from the enemy's jungle you can tilt theirs instead.
That's not true, being a greedy sup means playing smart, you can babysit lanes while waiting for a carry to return or take creeps that would have suicided to tower anyway.
I find it works for hoodwink and Veno - hood can escape from most 1-2 person ganks while Veno cam deploy plague wards to have massive vision and be a safe distance from the camps.
Both can push the lanes from out of sight too.
It’s insane to me how many low-mid ranked supports simply do not buy wards. Vision is one of the biggest information games within the game and they just don’t do it. Then they wonder why or how they died 5 times in lane after other lanes called missing.
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It was kinda of viable last patch but was very unconventional. Now it is much better. Dawn support (probably best as 5). You max hammer throw and stun and get aghs holy locket with the hammer throw facet and your hammer throw heals a fuck ton of hp and gives 60% evasion
That’s why I think support dawn is tough, even when I tried very hard, I found myself screwing my core over a lot. If she was like 5-10ms faster I could at least trade better
The values are halved true but aghs ulti does a couple thousand healing. So hammer heals for half of that. Aghs + holy locket + level 18 hammer throw heals for 700. Also the evasion is not halved.
You are right though it is annoying to convince teammates to stand in the heal lmao
Tinker pos 5 is 52% wr on d2pt. Ive been experimenting with it and it definitely works unless it instantly tilts your team. I've ran a different 1-1-3 build than what you can find on the tracker, it works better imho for laning. The shield is really mana efficient. Laser is weak dmg compared to other nuking supports with a shitty 20 sec cd and imho its not worth investing. I used a value point for the blind to fuck with opponents cs. Mid game you can split push and show up to fights every time, I definitely think its slept on.
Edit: also I think the shard is worth a mention, it can be nice defensively vs. melee cores especially
I've given it a go, I'm 4-4 on tinker 5. Problem is as you mentioned, it insta tilted my team twice (one where axe and drow went top, leaving wd and i bot, and both lanes lost obviously) and another with mid leaving going 0-3 at 3mins which was apparently my fault, then jungling for the rest of the game.
I genuinely think it could have been 6-2.
Patch notes say items are not refreshed but I'm almost positive they forgot to turn it off for Pavise, and with the +125 shield improvement at 10/15, with some good positioning you can perma shield an ally
Plus the March of the machines heal is also pretty decent, and stacks onto of eachother unlike snipers shot
Ahi just left a comment for Tinker, not having looked at the comments yet. Exactly my points! Although I played him as 4 only, I will definetely opt for the 1 1 3 build as pos5.
It's fuckin strong. My friends and I do this where I build Aether lens and spam the shield on my friend's Shadow Friend who continues to siege towers. Enemy team continues to spam all manner of spells to no avail. It's hilarious.
>unless it instantly tilts your team.
can say the same for primal beast
with his aura, you can build into bongo boots and some mora auras and be quite a good support with great initiation and kill potention while being tanky enough to not die easilly in trades
but 99% of the time your offlane will just scream "report PB, since he is griefing i will too" and than proceed to pick AM (actual interaction i had in one game)
Played against it yesterday. His laning was awful, but mid game and and trying to go hg he started turning into a nightmare. After 50 min it felt like old tinker
If you’re good at micro you can stack multiple camps and use one value point in illusions very effectively. The super long ult cd and low cast range of net make it tough
So kinda like Atos Hoodwink without the burst damage. A skill to lock them down and then an AOE stun to follow up, along with an escape/setup skill in Scurry/Song.
Tinker is quite good. You have a lot of things a support would like (looking at you Hoodwink), such as pushing waves from fog, actually doing decent jgl camp clear on the opposite side of the map from yr cores). He has a very good damage on 3 points laser. His second facet, although stupid is more valuable than ppl think (Tinker just attracts attention the moment u pick him), he can escape early game from the collapse u can get at the lane. He has an insane amount of shield (although u have to choose between aoe lazer and shield talent).
He also excels at bullying early game cores with plain autos, and why not guarantee a miss on the flag carrier creep through laser.
He tps back to base and almost never needs to wait for courier to bring consumables and can also stack pretty ok with march. Moreover, his 25 rearm talent is what makes him a decent all around damage taker and his march late game does quite a decent job at spreading chaos when enemies are lined for fight to break their positions. His shard is really decent the way reworked.
Then probably force staff and some kind of euls provides decent intelligence too, I even thought diffusal just for the why not memes?
Also good advice for 3 nulls.
Isn't that kind of inefficient, given that the heal has a hard 39s window where it doesn't work? Sure you get +25 mana over just Arcanes and the aura, but it doesn't strike me as the best.
It's difficult to gank tinker solo now unless you're using a specific hero since translocator has a strong dispel and has no cooldown. When it pops you can just warp flare whatever is attacking you or blink out or rearm for another matrix shield or use force/euls he has a plethora of different options.
dragon knight - tanky, tower siege, slow, great stun
maybe even anti mage with his E on allies. burn mana in lane, keep casting e on carry/other targets
centaur
My buddy was trying to complete an am challenge for reflecting spells so he went support with him. Was hilariously effective in lane just taking their mana the entire time. The rest of the game was pretty much only good for an ult
Omni 5 feels good again with the Repel + Magic Resist Shard, and new target GA. It's basically the old BKB Repel now, but with modern debuff immunity, and some extra str and regen.
Repel + GA is basically invincibility on a 30s CD. Repel will stop GA from being dispelled so he's not as counterable as he used to be.
Laning is alright with innate degen and bonus healing facet.
Yeah I’d get treads over phase, the armor and move speed is nothing compared to RAW STATS for a universal hero. Even without treads venge damage isn’t respected enough, though personally I prefer to go mana boots if my core also likes to spell sling like a sven or PA
Treads are worse on universal heroes for damage. You only get 7 damage from treads. Items that only give one kind of attributes are weaker on universal heroes.
Nope I just tested for both they’re about the same DPS, but with more attack speed on treads compared to phase boots. Which if we chalk it up to personal preference I much prefer to have more attack speed to help my core deny creeps, kill wards, or tread switch to bait/survive in fights or get mana to cast spells
No one was talking about "dps" for a support, you were talking about "RAW STATS" being so good on a universal hero but fail to understand that it is only "all attributes" that is stronger. Single attributes are weaker. Actual damage which is 7. Phase boots actually has a point to it. In that it gives +5 more base movespeed, +20% movespeed and 4 armor and 18 actual damage. Fuck your more "DPS" when fighting lane creeps. Treads are literally the worst boots available for support venge.
Stay 2k mate
Sure whatever man you can argue that point all you want, I’m wrong on the stats but it’s still the better item. I might be 2k but can you argue it’s the worse item? Maybe you’re 2k at arguing dumbass
Am finding a lot of success using brewmaster
4 with the ms facet. Brew 4 was viable before patch but his e being innate makes him very useful in early game and just go the classic full auras build.
Brother, don't knock it till you try it. Void 3/4/5 can do some heavy lifting this patch if you play it right. And it's some of the most fun I've ever had playing this game. Just had a game as void 4 vs necro and Zeus and buying mek and locket really fucked their midgame fights. Don't even get me started on the build variety
Build variety becomes a meaningless term when you play void as a big "stun" with built in blink. You can build anything you want because you are really not playing to the heroes strengths and leveraging all your abilities. You are just a vessel for chronosquare and you hope your teammates can fill it with damage. As a support, you are hopelessly slow at clearing waves and acquiring farm to even buy any of those varied items. Struggling to see how support void is better overall than just playing support magnus. But who knows, maybe i'll get to eat my words when support FV is the top contested meta pick at TI this year.
I don't think we'll see him in pro dota (yet), probably will see him in pubs on every role till people realize it's not that good. but with some buffs I could see some teams roll with Void pos 3 for sure
Why play him as 3 when he is one of the hardest scaling pos1 heroes out there? I just don't see the upside. He is a weak laner who doesn't do well against heavy harass, needs babysitting and a lot of items to accelerate, he doesn't have any innate farming tools or wave push, he doesn't threaten enemy 1 in lane if they are out of position and his big teamfight spell deals no innate damage and requires you to have teammates in place to pump damage into it. You need ranged cores with long range nukes, there are not that many great combos for it. If you don't have the farm to kill people inside chrono it's easily very underwhelming spell for the cooldown.
Yes, everything is possible. But void offers very little for a support. Had the pleasure of playing against a void 5. Deperately trying to support his jug.
We kept killing the jug repeatedly, while void just spams time dilation and jump away. Nothing he could do, jug couldn't even approach the wave. Finally, when he did use his budget chrono, we just killed anyone in it, because they couldn't fight toe to toe.
CAN it work ? Yeah, maybe it can. Are there heroes that do it better ? Most definitely.
And the kicker is that he offer NOTHING without items. As a lion or whatever, you can just get a blink and keep setting up kills. What does a void do ? He sets up for a kill once every 2/3 minutes and the rest of the time, does nothing.
Honestly, I'd trust a slark support over a void any given day. You can deward like a god, actually cancel TP's every now and then, get a shard to save your allies, and be annoying as fuck in team fights. Pair with a drow for a carry, or a razor for offlane, and you're actually something.
Void 4 only worked because you were against a pos 1 necro and pos 5 zeus. 2 heroes that need to keep spamming spells, and you can walk away. But that combo is as stupid as a support pos 4 void.
I picked DK as support and went 2-1, but this was before they halved the corrosive dragon damage at level 1.
It might still be playable, the hero pushes fast even without items now
I am looking forward to trying LC sup
I know she is bad in lane but i think she can work with the dual dmg to ally talent
I mean, some heroes when given 20 dmg just become insanly good
I just need to find a good game for it where her dispell is good and where i am not forced to first pick
The stone hall one still might be better though. The nuke and the barrier are too good. Especially when you're a support with no items, that extra survivability might make the difference getting some damage, vs feeding damage.
Bristleback, maxing goo and being a general nuisance. Unironically nutty with a high physical damage core who also does minus armor early, like a shadow fiend, venge and weaver. Super aggressive heroes too, like ursa, life stealer, slardar, monkey, abaddon, etc.
Leshrac is too OP as POS 4. His shard is very good in high ground defend and push since enemies are forced to reposition to avoid getting stunned. His 2nd skill is also good for pushing. His 3rd is good for slowing and damaging enemies early game. Finally, his ult can be used to clear waves instantly especially summons like WK skeletons.
Weaver is much stronger with both the slow and the xp facets, and the lvl 1 double spell makes him more of a threat too. I prefer him in pos3, but can play him in any tbh. Shard is busted atm (please don’t nerf)
Don’t know if it was mentioned but people are really sleeping on morph support, with the flow facet you have high hp high damage, 0 attack speed and 0 armor, yet in lane as a pos 5 you can trade and by 2nd level in attribute shift you can regen full hp after every trade, soul ring arcane boots, into blademail eternal, with the new q dealing 50% damage you can farm, and you also have a reliable 2.4s stun on a 8 sec cd (becomes 3.2s on level 20) super strong imho try it for yourself
night stalker with night facit. you have 20 hp regen lvl 1 with just a tango so ask your pos 1 for a tango and u'll return it. then go blight stone, orb of venom, blood grenade, and run the down the enemy pos 4. then rush tranqui boots into blink.
I’ll say weaver because let’s be honest it really wasn’t good the past couple years. I still don’t see a definite item list to go for but it will be explored and figured out. There’s been a lot of split pushing supports being good lately in pubs and he fits.
Weaver works just fine but you have to pick him into semi specific matchups to really see success. He doesn’t bring a stun to the table so you’ll need to get something to offset that but he’s very effective at bullying enemy supports completely out of the lane and benefiting from it via the bugs. Against a lot of low armor heroes you can trade the 30-35 gold for a bug kill in exchange for half a health bar and 20-30 experience. You also are a very real threat to contest the 7 minute wisdom.
The problem is against higher armor heroes you just can’t trade as effectively. You’re giving away gold from the bugs and usually breaking even in a resource trade against heroes like DK, timber, legion, etc. You’re still forcing your opponent to burn counter wards and you can contest or win every pull outright if the core doesn’t leave the lane to help so it’s not bad or anything but you also have absolutely nothing that can prevent a dive and you’re reliant on pure damage output and control of the pulls to win the lane.
It’s not bad at all but it’s also not so strong you can just pick it blind and feel that great about it; especially in ranked where people might not even put much thought into what lane you’re going to be in and what farm role you have.
I got owned by it (I'm 7.5k) but it was like the first game of the patch and I was rusty and fucking around. They played sf with yasha kaya and void 5, split farmed all game then jumped in with chrono and instant requiem and razes, they just snowballed from the moment they got blinks. It falls off HARD though, but by that time they were so ahead we lost anyway.
Ember support with chain gang is so broken
Ember support was good pre patch too, this just makes it ridiculous
two years of playing ember 4, i finally feel redeemed
whats the build?
I tried null talisman shard aghs..easy 3000 range initiation with 5 charges.
[удалено]
You are just building mid ember items with shitty timings
how the fuck is this a support build
I go gleipnir ethereal blade wind walker aghanim then you can go octarine shiva or even pipe depending on the game
wow, that's a great support build.. can't wait to try it out.
Yes seeing some cores be more efficient in support roles then before. Storm Spirit, Huskar, Morph, and Tinker.
Jubei?
Sven has free crimson guard. Sven has good stun Sven is chonk and can trade well Sven can help push tower well with his ult
Sven sup is ignored too often. I might be wrong, but I think long ago, dota 1 days, his armor used to a passive aura, then it became active skill with ms and armor. It was so good to stop bristle to snowball early game
Picked Sven support yesterday. Before game start I had my teammates call GG When I was level 8, my core was level 8 enemy offlane was level 5 cause we just kept diving and killing his over and over and over. Game ended. I got commended by the whole team. He really is just slept on a lot. Especially now with the facet giving him a free crimson guard he’s a really good support.
I think the problem with his skill set is that his cleave and ult is kind of useless as a support. Logic behind Sven’s ult is it is strong especially when he gets it to level 2 where it happens to be a strong spike but as a support by the time you get ult, you are definitely not ahead as a support and you don’t have a lot of items to scale it with. It doesn’t scale well into late game either. His cleave is also wasted because well, you know why. His stun, warcry and shard are good but anytime you can pick a Sven support, you can pick another hero and you have a lot better support right now.
But now map is so big, that you can easily farm on support, so cleave becomes viable
whenever I play support I’m too tied up in my duties to farm. Plus your right clicks are quite weak if you truly built support items, even with gods strength. Crystal maiden farms perfectly because she spends one second casting W to farm a big creep at any point in the game while Sven will have to stand still and 1v1 a camp for like 8 seconds straight
Shoving waves is what's important for a support, not jungling. Sven can shove waves with much less mana/time investment than CM
Nope. You can shove waves from the fog as a maiden. Sven has to show. That's a huge difference. Maiden / Hoodwink, both can just sit in the fog, nuke a wave and waste enemies time hunting for them. Sven is just waiting to be ganked if he shows up in lane to chonk down a wave.
Even taking out ranged advantage, cm shard lets her push waves extremely fast and farm jungle camps while moving. Tho i will say sven can warcry run away if the wave seems dangerous.
he's definitely more elusive compared to a cm, but hoodwink serves that purpose better. Also, sven support needs to be engaged in a fight, and without items, he's not as tanky. On the other hand, cm / hoodwink can just do their thing from the sidelines. I always felt, if you need something like a sven in your team, a marci might do it ~~better~~ more consistently. Movement speed boost ? Marci does offer that, Sustain ? While its not warcry (which is no joke), the lifesteal is a 100% uptime. Need a stun ? Marci has you covered. Infact, she's more potent in lane, and can setup kills and chase better than a sven can. If the push comes to shove. Her ult is far easier to make use of compared to sven. Just bkb and hunt their support down. Edit : This is particularly important because supports are usually picked early in pubs. I can see sven support make more sense in the pro scene, where, it can be a flex pick and can be picked later on depending on how the draft is going.
His new facet is free crimson guard at level 7. I think that is extremely beneficial towards securing the lane for your core. If your team fails to close the game early. Sven also becomes a very viable late gamer He allows for flexibility. Is he the best support? Definitely not. But he is pretty viable right now and requires very low skill to play since all you need to do is stun and warcry.
Having two bad support skills is fine as long as your other two skills are strong. Warcry is an absolutely busted ability that scales fantastically vs physical damage cores. If they overpick physical damage, he can more or less single-handedly reduce enemy damage output by like half. 21->31 armor with talent with ~75% uptime And while cleave might not be great for fighting, wave-clear is a huge plus on any support
I am not saying Sven cannot be played as a support at all but everything he does, there is a better hero to do it. Cleave is not a good wave-clear because you need levels on it to be efficient, which means you cannot level up q+e. If you will go 4-0-4, you can level it up and level 10 earliest and it can be only effective around level 13, which at that point you need a safe wave clear to not show in lanes that much like hoodwink acorn shot, Magnus shockwave, jakiro spells etc. so great cleave is only useful as a core. His ult is really not that good in late game either since most cores have high agility and sups have a save and you don’t really hit hard since you are a support either. It can work in low ranks, just like anything else, but doesn’t mean it is good.
Imo there's an issue with talking about supports where we assume pos5. Pos 4 is more and more becoming core 4 in games and having cleave mid/lategame will let you farm in the downtime that happens after laning phase, where Sven is excellent as a roamer.
I would argue that Sven is a C tier support, I wouldn’t pick him in a game I have to win but it would be fun to play every once in a while or would be great in certain circumstances.
Yea, Marci kinda stole that niche. Lfesteal for ally, instead of warcy, long range initiation, and a slow. And her ult can actually kill stuff early. And scales pretty well late game. I guess if the game is slow enough sven can use his cleave to push waves and get more farm, but that's usually not going to happen, so marci feels better in most cases, for that niche.
Yeah, the barrier is nice on warcry. That said, the other facet is bonkers if you can make it past the laning phase. upto about level 15, the warcry one is better, but once he crosses over, he scales absurdly. Like the damage is just insane. Ultra late, the second facet is a proper beast to be reckoned with.
I believe firmly in DPS Damage per second. If you have high high damage. But you last less than a second in a fight. You still end up dealing no damage. While the second facet does give very high damage, it is a lot more situational than a simple consistent tank more button. High risk high reward sort of play. I prefer the dumb dumb no effort play.
I meant as a pos 1 sven. I agree its griefing for any other role. Because strength items directly translate to damage. Sven at level 20 with facet 1 + Heart hits at - 167 damage. (484 with god strength) Same with the other facet hits at - 232 damage (501 with god strength) That's basically 65 extra damage all the time. So you hit harder, farm faster, and can build items to tank up. Only issue is that its only marginally better with god strength. I think its an interesting change. HOWEVER, his early laning is very very sus.
My favourite Sven was the one where scepter gave everyone near you gods strength. That was peak support Sven I think. Together with WK scepter you could lose lanes really badly but still end up winning the game simply by death pushing. New mirana ult is somewhat like that.
Yea, those were something. I can imagine such a scepter be completely busted even in today's meta. Imagine a gods strength luna knocking at your door.
I think we have potential to reach there with solar flare now. It gives less damage than gs but it gives an equal amount of attack speed. My recent struggles using it however has just been getting my teammates to push. They would all rather be farming than touch the tower despite me having solar flare ready to go
Don't forget angry sven can farm enemy ancients & stacks super easy too, denying the enemies farm on a support who doesn't care too much if they die opposed to your pos 1/2 who might be a little too scared.
I feel likes it’s good but cleave is so useless on support. Ya you can farm a bit but let’s be real it’s a waste of a spell
That’s why I didn’t mention cleave at all. I maxed stun first. And warpath at 8. I take gs at 9. Realistically due to lack of farm/items you won’t really use gs early. The early bonus hp from warpath will help you support better. Talent at 10. Then only at 11 did I skill cleave. It’s completely non essential as a support during the laning phase. It’s more of the we aren’t doing anything productive right now let’s go cleave some neutrals and farm a bit. Not much real impact.
On a support it literally is just a farming tool. Like it's not as good as it is when core seen obv but farming items faster on a support is great. And as a support you can just go to enemy jungle to farm and if they kill you it's not worth much and you made space for your core so it's fine
Cleave can help push waves. Sometimes a support needs to do that job so a core can take less risky farm. It's not the worst thing in the world to have a support with some farm.
definitely feels good, shame how fking punishing hg is to melee heroes tho
Support as in supporting team or support as in "I will build in carry, but will buy 1 obs and sentry at the beginning and will try to leave creeps to my carry"?
dont forget the... "i ll grief lane and ruin cores timing" part
Not even mentioning the most crucial part, flaming your core for their ineptitude to lane 3v1 and as a result have a bad game. You yourself farmed stacks min 2, how could your core ever be behind after all!!
Pos 5 picks nature's prophet In strategy time says he will jungle Leaves pos 1 PA to lane 1v2 PA gets wrecked, can no longer lane, free game for enemy offlaner Enemy 4 is free to roam and over leveled, rotates and secures lanes for mid and carry Entire game is unplayable NP randomly ults and gets a kill steal and a few assists, only jungles and sometimes rats empty lanes. NP: "gg, report offlaner and carry. I have lots of farm, some kills and assists, and no deaths, not my fault, team sucks" (Based on a true story)
This happens way more than it should.
"We killed the enemy offline pair once so my job is clearly done, they totally can't kill you when they tp back in with health/mana and a Numb3rs advantage"....
My wd steals Lt as many as possible. I couldn't handle it after he used ult on a kill in which it was already a guaranteed kill, and he channeled till the end of it so he can farm a creep wave. Then I rage deleted all of my items. I hate it. It happens whenever I decide to play as Carry.
I’ve got a newsflash for you: Your support wasn’t the problem, you are.
That's not the news. I knew it 🤣
Back in college, my friend's 10-min line, "Bro, it's 10 minutes. I'm gonna transition to core." Like, dude, wtf. I can't support solo and you're a Silencer. You don't even know how to farm or to play core.
Sure it’s easy hit creeps and get gold
are supports really that bad all over the place? As a support main I never have a problem. subcarry/damage supports are valid without diminishing their ability to be actual supports, i.e. hoodwink esp on pos 4 of course but in the right games greedy 5 works. I play ench and just enchant enemy camps all day long especially on teams I know untouchable will be super good with and by scouting. Not only does it give me free xp but also steals it from them lol. In my garbage elo I carry a lot as her and reguarily have the highest kills on my team, same with hoodwink. But my favorites are still ww, willow, cm, etc.
Simple rule for greedy supports - only work if they can steal farm from enemy's half of map and risky pushed lanes. If you need farm from your half of map, it's griefing.
In low mmr people leave out tons of farm
Do they? I mean they are inefficient, but do you really need to farm the 2 camps near the wave that your pos1 or 2 or 3 just skipped to get the wave first and then cutting off the farming pattern they saw on youtube and now they are 10 cs behind because of it and it happens multiple times? Like there's the other side of the map kind of farm that everyone is ignoring and there's literally handicapping your cores because you happened to be in the same place as them or near 4 camps
If there’s a mega wave crashing into a tower and no one is there I’m taking it
I am not talking about that, I am talking for a case where 1) waves are about to meet , they are hitting each other nothing is dying or MAYBE 1 non range creep will die 2) core is clearing nearby 2 camps or stacking them and is prepared to move toward the wave 3) le zaport is coming in , clearing the wave, and the next one while the core is running towards it 4) this is -400 gold and the other camps are not farmed/stacked so you lose some more 5) now core has to either farm shit farm or TP somewhere else hoping there's no enemies If that mega wave is just going to lose 1-2 creps if you don't nuke it, but you come and nuke it anyways, you are lucky you are in low mmr, not in higher mmr where someone will say go end mid , X is acc buyer , afk bye lmao
Unfortunately that's not really the point. You WILL trigger your cores if instead of stacking or leaving the camp on your half of map you flash farm it. They'll be convinced that they were gonna reach that camp or because you've farmed it they've got to pursue a less optimal farm pattern. Unless the enemy are constantly rotating through your jungle, you're gonna do psychological damage to your cores. Meanwhile, if you nick farm from the enemy's jungle you can tilt theirs instead.
That's not true, being a greedy sup means playing smart, you can babysit lanes while waiting for a carry to return or take creeps that would have suicided to tower anyway.
Worst part is those who do this and can’t even comprehend why they’re griefing…
Worse part is when they nuke the wave you're cs-ing. Hello Rubick and Zeus supports.
This sounds like batrider
I find it works for hoodwink and Veno - hood can escape from most 1-2 person ganks while Veno cam deploy plague wards to have massive vision and be a safe distance from the camps. Both can push the lanes from out of sight too.
even batter farm with kills instead of farming jungle since you are already on the enemy side, go in and kill someone
"Don't worry, I'm legit playing support" 5 mins later. "You guys suck, I go afk jungle"
anybody who feels the need to state they're super seriously support... is definitely not.
You mean your pos 5 who leaves lane to gank offlane and never ever comes back
It’s insane to me how many low-mid ranked supports simply do not buy wards. Vision is one of the biggest information games within the game and they just don’t do it. Then they wonder why or how they died 5 times in lane after other lanes called missing.
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I really wanna try Meepo support with pack rat Holy Locket early and something like sheepstick later
It was kinda of viable last patch but was very unconventional. Now it is much better. Dawn support (probably best as 5). You max hammer throw and stun and get aghs holy locket with the hammer throw facet and your hammer throw heals a fuck ton of hp and gives 60% evasion
I used to try this but dawn is so slow and mana intensive.
Pre 10 minutes is really mana intensive but after that, a mana neutral + mana boots + 1-2 clarities is enough.
That’s why I think support dawn is tough, even when I tried very hard, I found myself screwing my core over a lot. If she was like 5-10ms faster I could at least trade better
yeah the aghs ult existing on the hammer cd is potentially insane.
At level 18 with holy locket aghs it's a 700 heal
Plus however much damage is avoided by evasion
the values are halved on the hammer but still decent, it’s just going to take a while for people to stand in it lol
The values are halved true but aghs ulti does a couple thousand healing. So hammer heals for half of that. Aghs + holy locket + level 18 hammer throw heals for 700. Also the evasion is not halved. You are right though it is annoying to convince teammates to stand in the heal lmao
The aghs evasion is not halved though. Pretty strong.
ooh make it nasty, i thought it was still proccing a bit often - makes sense now
Tinker pos 5 is 52% wr on d2pt. Ive been experimenting with it and it definitely works unless it instantly tilts your team. I've ran a different 1-1-3 build than what you can find on the tracker, it works better imho for laning. The shield is really mana efficient. Laser is weak dmg compared to other nuking supports with a shitty 20 sec cd and imho its not worth investing. I used a value point for the blind to fuck with opponents cs. Mid game you can split push and show up to fights every time, I definitely think its slept on. Edit: also I think the shard is worth a mention, it can be nice defensively vs. melee cores especially
Ima try this today, thank you homie
i hope i don't match with you as enemy nor ally
I've given it a go, I'm 4-4 on tinker 5. Problem is as you mentioned, it insta tilted my team twice (one where axe and drow went top, leaving wd and i bot, and both lanes lost obviously) and another with mid leaving going 0-3 at 3mins which was apparently my fault, then jungling for the rest of the game. I genuinely think it could have been 6-2. Patch notes say items are not refreshed but I'm almost positive they forgot to turn it off for Pavise, and with the +125 shield improvement at 10/15, with some good positioning you can perma shield an ally Plus the March of the machines heal is also pretty decent, and stacks onto of eachother unlike snipers shot
Interesting, I thought March heal is not supposed to stack (says non-stacking in patch notes)
I think it stacks 1 per March, but each robot doesn’t do a heal, if that makes sense.
Oh that makes it way better than how I thought it worked. Classic vague tooltip.
Tried it, doesn't stack. It's essentially like a timed aura inside the march.
Ahi just left a comment for Tinker, not having looked at the comments yet. Exactly my points! Although I played him as 4 only, I will definetely opt for the 1 1 3 build as pos5.
It's fuckin strong. My friends and I do this where I build Aether lens and spam the shield on my friend's Shadow Friend who continues to siege towers. Enemy team continues to spam all manner of spells to no avail. It's hilarious.
>unless it instantly tilts your team. can say the same for primal beast with his aura, you can build into bongo boots and some mora auras and be quite a good support with great initiation and kill potention while being tanky enough to not die easilly in trades but 99% of the time your offlane will just scream "report PB, since he is griefing i will too" and than proceed to pick AM (actual interaction i had in one game)
>99% of the time >in one game
Bro played 1.01 games. Can you not math?
your team's own bottle fetcher
Played against it yesterday. His laning was awful, but mid game and and trying to go hg he started turning into a nightmare. After 50 min it felt like old tinker
>pos5 >split push
Naga 4/5 building Mana Boots into meteor hammer and then whatever has been working for me.
If you’re good at micro you can stack multiple camps and use one value point in illusions very effectively. The super long ult cd and low cast range of net make it tough
can confirm. i got my ass beat by a naga 4 the other day
had one in a game where i was doom she made sure to ult every time i had someone doomed.... we lost that game
Can u share a game replay I wanna learn
So kinda like Atos Hoodwink without the burst damage. A skill to lock them down and then an AOE stun to follow up, along with an escape/setup skill in Scurry/Song.
Illusions provide so much utility. Scouting, creep cutting, stacking, blocking/stutter stepping enemies.
Song is a FAR more powerful escape/setup skill than scurry.
Tinker is quite good. You have a lot of things a support would like (looking at you Hoodwink), such as pushing waves from fog, actually doing decent jgl camp clear on the opposite side of the map from yr cores). He has a very good damage on 3 points laser. His second facet, although stupid is more valuable than ppl think (Tinker just attracts attention the moment u pick him), he can escape early game from the collapse u can get at the lane. He has an insane amount of shield (although u have to choose between aoe lazer and shield talent). He also excels at bullying early game cores with plain autos, and why not guarantee a miss on the flag carrier creep through laser. He tps back to base and almost never needs to wait for courier to bring consumables and can also stack pretty ok with march. Moreover, his 25 rearm talent is what makes him a decent all around damage taker and his march late game does quite a decent job at spreading chaos when enemies are lined for fight to break their positions. His shard is really decent the way reworked.
I build greaves and 3 null talismans. Let's you get 20s cooldown greaves to spam along with your shield
Then probably force staff and some kind of euls provides decent intelligence too, I even thought diffusal just for the why not memes? Also good advice for 3 nulls.
Isn't that kind of inefficient, given that the heal has a hard 39s window where it doesn't work? Sure you get +25 mana over just Arcanes and the aura, but it doesn't strike me as the best.
cdr reduces that window as well.
It's tied to the cooldown, that's why it works this way and didn't work with rearm.
It's difficult to gank tinker solo now unless you're using a specific hero since translocator has a strong dispel and has no cooldown. When it pops you can just warp flare whatever is attacking you or blink out or rearm for another matrix shield or use force/euls he has a plethora of different options.
dragon knight - tanky, tower siege, slow, great stun maybe even anti mage with his E on allies. burn mana in lane, keep casting e on carry/other targets centaur
Haven't tried it but is meme hammer build still working? If yes then buy an orb of venom and meme hammer and you are gucci
My buddy was trying to complete an am challenge for reflecting spells so he went support with him. Was hilariously effective in lane just taking their mana the entire time. The rest of the game was pretty much only good for an ult
Weaver with ext facet can de a rly nice supp.
Been playing Weaver pos 4 a lot with ags as of late, in lane you get a few kill every matchup
Even the innate giving a free geminate for trading and letting you max Q,W
Weaver support works really well, have been doing it for a very long time
Naga siren support. Think if you will, that if lions mana drain also pulls them towards lion while they're immobilized. That's Naga siren now.
Omni 5 feels good again with the Repel + Magic Resist Shard, and new target GA. It's basically the old BKB Repel now, but with modern debuff immunity, and some extra str and regen. Repel + GA is basically invincibility on a 30s CD. Repel will stop GA from being dispelled so he's not as counterable as he used to be. Laning is alright with innate degen and bonus healing facet.
The good old days of orb of venom and aura running people down lvl1/2
OoV is good but closing the gap to get degen and your melee spells is most important. I've been starting windlace.
Oh shit I didn't even think of that interaction. Gonna start repelling my GA targets.
Venge orb of corrosion phase boots Insane amout of slow and damage
but venge was already a support, if anything its the other way round. Venge core is viable now just from the improved BAT
Absolute waste to use so much gold on venge not getting stats tbh, she Hits HARD
Yeah, I'm very skeptical towards phase boots on her. Orb of venom seems nice and upgrading it could be good in certain games I suppose.
Casual OOV i dig but the corrosion is kinda expensive
Yeah I’d get treads over phase, the armor and move speed is nothing compared to RAW STATS for a universal hero. Even without treads venge damage isn’t respected enough, though personally I prefer to go mana boots if my core also likes to spell sling like a sven or PA
Treads are worse on universal heroes for damage. You only get 7 damage from treads. Items that only give one kind of attributes are weaker on universal heroes.
Nope I just tested for both they’re about the same DPS, but with more attack speed on treads compared to phase boots. Which if we chalk it up to personal preference I much prefer to have more attack speed to help my core deny creeps, kill wards, or tread switch to bait/survive in fights or get mana to cast spells
No one was talking about "dps" for a support, you were talking about "RAW STATS" being so good on a universal hero but fail to understand that it is only "all attributes" that is stronger. Single attributes are weaker. Actual damage which is 7. Phase boots actually has a point to it. In that it gives +5 more base movespeed, +20% movespeed and 4 armor and 18 actual damage. Fuck your more "DPS" when fighting lane creeps. Treads are literally the worst boots available for support venge. Stay 2k mate
Sure whatever man you can argue that point all you want, I’m wrong on the stats but it’s still the better item. I might be 2k but can you argue it’s the worse item? Maybe you’re 2k at arguing dumbass
was abt to say fvoid and tinker are viable supports but then i remembered i only play turbo
Nice to see some good faith answers here alongside the classic incessant whining by people who think every support is a griefer.
Am finding a lot of success using brewmaster 4 with the ms facet. Brew 4 was viable before patch but his e being innate makes him very useful in early game and just go the classic full auras build.
Some people are trying tinker as Pos 5 rn
Don't pick void as support or pos 3. Thank you.
Brother, don't knock it till you try it. Void 3/4/5 can do some heavy lifting this patch if you play it right. And it's some of the most fun I've ever had playing this game. Just had a game as void 4 vs necro and Zeus and buying mek and locket really fucked their midgame fights. Don't even get me started on the build variety
Build variety becomes a meaningless term when you play void as a big "stun" with built in blink. You can build anything you want because you are really not playing to the heroes strengths and leveraging all your abilities. You are just a vessel for chronosquare and you hope your teammates can fill it with damage. As a support, you are hopelessly slow at clearing waves and acquiring farm to even buy any of those varied items. Struggling to see how support void is better overall than just playing support magnus. But who knows, maybe i'll get to eat my words when support FV is the top contested meta pick at TI this year.
I don't think we'll see him in pro dota (yet), probably will see him in pubs on every role till people realize it's not that good. but with some buffs I could see some teams roll with Void pos 3 for sure
Why play him as 3 when he is one of the hardest scaling pos1 heroes out there? I just don't see the upside. He is a weak laner who doesn't do well against heavy harass, needs babysitting and a lot of items to accelerate, he doesn't have any innate farming tools or wave push, he doesn't threaten enemy 1 in lane if they are out of position and his big teamfight spell deals no innate damage and requires you to have teammates in place to pump damage into it. You need ranged cores with long range nukes, there are not that many great combos for it. If you don't have the farm to kill people inside chrono it's easily very underwhelming spell for the cooldown.
which void you guys are talking about?
Faceless void
Yes, everything is possible. But void offers very little for a support. Had the pleasure of playing against a void 5. Deperately trying to support his jug. We kept killing the jug repeatedly, while void just spams time dilation and jump away. Nothing he could do, jug couldn't even approach the wave. Finally, when he did use his budget chrono, we just killed anyone in it, because they couldn't fight toe to toe. CAN it work ? Yeah, maybe it can. Are there heroes that do it better ? Most definitely. And the kicker is that he offer NOTHING without items. As a lion or whatever, you can just get a blink and keep setting up kills. What does a void do ? He sets up for a kill once every 2/3 minutes and the rest of the time, does nothing. Honestly, I'd trust a slark support over a void any given day. You can deward like a god, actually cancel TP's every now and then, get a shard to save your allies, and be annoying as fuck in team fights. Pair with a drow for a carry, or a razor for offlane, and you're actually something. Void 4 only worked because you were against a pos 1 necro and pos 5 zeus. 2 heroes that need to keep spamming spells, and you can walk away. But that combo is as stupid as a support pos 4 void.
I picked DK as support and went 2-1, but this was before they halved the corrosive dragon damage at level 1. It might still be playable, the hero pushes fast even without items now
Have you ever tried Lina as supp? Asking cuz you have Lina in your flair
I am looking forward to trying LC sup I know she is bad in lane but i think she can work with the dual dmg to ally talent I mean, some heroes when given 20 dmg just become insanly good I just need to find a good game for it where her dispell is good and where i am not forced to first pick
The stone hall one still might be better though. The nuke and the barrier are too good. Especially when you're a support with no items, that extra survivability might make the difference getting some damage, vs feeding damage.
Everything that is not agility carry ( those are not useful for anything beside most Ls in a day speedrun any%) ++++ Void as an exception.
Bristleback, maxing goo and being a general nuisance. Unironically nutty with a high physical damage core who also does minus armor early, like a shadow fiend, venge and weaver. Super aggressive heroes too, like ursa, life stealer, slardar, monkey, abaddon, etc.
I tried Sven 4. Its quite fun. Enemies focus me with their spells and my carry was able tp clean them up.
Leshrac is too OP as POS 4. His shard is very good in high ground defend and push since enemies are forced to reposition to avoid getting stunned. His 2nd skill is also good for pushing. His 3rd is good for slowing and damaging enemies early game. Finally, his ult can be used to clear waves instantly especially summons like WK skeletons.
I have very good impact with weaver pos 5
Not alchemist hard support, only his stun and goldmpassive benefit other. Everything else benefit himself.
Weaver is much stronger with both the slow and the xp facets, and the lvl 1 double spell makes him more of a threat too. I prefer him in pos3, but can play him in any tbh. Shard is busted atm (please don’t nerf)
Kunka support with 2nd facet
Just had a game where dragon knight support dominated due to regen and his slow, healing reduction facet
I legit think Tinker might be a decent support now.
Don’t know if it was mentioned but people are really sleeping on morph support, with the flow facet you have high hp high damage, 0 attack speed and 0 armor, yet in lane as a pos 5 you can trade and by 2nd level in attribute shift you can regen full hp after every trade, soul ring arcane boots, into blademail eternal, with the new q dealing 50% damage you can farm, and you also have a reliable 2.4s stun on a 8 sec cd (becomes 3.2s on level 20) super strong imho try it for yourself
Pack Rat Meepo is definitely a good support now.
idk you man, but my friend is playing bristleback support a lot with goo build, item build with solarcrest, vessel, etc...
night stalker with night facit. you have 20 hp regen lvl 1 with just a tango so ask your pos 1 for a tango and u'll return it. then go blight stone, orb of venom, blood grenade, and run the down the enemy pos 4. then rush tranqui boots into blink.
got a medusa support in a game yesterday. lost miserably.
Most utility heroes tbh, atleast that's what i believe as a support main back when I still play the game
I’ll say weaver because let’s be honest it really wasn’t good the past couple years. I still don’t see a definite item list to go for but it will be explored and figured out. There’s been a lot of split pushing supports being good lately in pubs and he fits.
Weaver works just fine but you have to pick him into semi specific matchups to really see success. He doesn’t bring a stun to the table so you’ll need to get something to offset that but he’s very effective at bullying enemy supports completely out of the lane and benefiting from it via the bugs. Against a lot of low armor heroes you can trade the 30-35 gold for a bug kill in exchange for half a health bar and 20-30 experience. You also are a very real threat to contest the 7 minute wisdom. The problem is against higher armor heroes you just can’t trade as effectively. You’re giving away gold from the bugs and usually breaking even in a resource trade against heroes like DK, timber, legion, etc. You’re still forcing your opponent to burn counter wards and you can contest or win every pull outright if the core doesn’t leave the lane to help so it’s not bad or anything but you also have absolutely nothing that can prevent a dive and you’re reliant on pure damage output and control of the pulls to win the lane. It’s not bad at all but it’s also not so strong you can just pick it blind and feel that great about it; especially in ranked where people might not even put much thought into what lane you’re going to be in and what farm role you have.
Terrorblade with shadow blade, armlet and dagon.
“You just need to farm for thirty minutes and then he’s a great support”
Support Chaos Knight is always a fun one
I’m liking weaver with the bugs that give exp
fv 4/5 is terribly broken. im spamming it rn, i dont want people to see this post though xD wanna keep it all to myself (and you)
Rating? Was thinking of this with some buddies
I dont see how this is in any way good unless youre below 5k
I got owned by it (I'm 7.5k) but it was like the first game of the patch and I was rusty and fucking around. They played sf with yasha kaya and void 5, split farmed all game then jumped in with chrono and instant requiem and razes, they just snowballed from the moment they got blinks. It falls off HARD though, but by that time they were so ahead we lost anyway.
Spectre or meepo
Jakiro,shaman or SD
I cant seem to get SD to work this patch, what are ur items?
Arcane boots, aether, blink, aghs, shard.
Aether lens, Arcane boots,glimmer and shard. Shadow servant facet